Theoryland of the Wheel of Time

4th Age Podcast Interview with Team Jordan (Verbatim)

I have a kind of a question which…so much doesn't connect directly to the Wheel of Time world except that it also connects Wheel of Time to the broader scope of our world, and I've just been itching to ask this: I've recently been in a course in Restoration Literature, and in the historical studies there, I noted that there seem to be connections between Cairhien and London around the time of the mid-to-early 1600s: the fact that the city is part built against a river, the city burns when the Aiel attack, and there are various cultural features that seem to reflect London around that time period, and I was wondering, am I just completely imagining this? I know occasionally Mr. Jordan would take things from various different places and kind of merge them together to create a unique, individual space, and I just was sort of wondering if there is actually any of historical London in Cairhien, and if there is, is there any more anywhere else in the major cities?

Yes, yes. One thing you have to remember about Jim is he never did a single reference in any of his descriptions, whether it's a military uniform, a city, a character—everything seemed to draw from multiple sources. So yes, Cairhien was most likely in part based on London, but you look at the map of it, and you can see it's very different as well. It's laid out in a very rigid grid fashion. You could say in that case, well, maybe it's based on New York City in part as well, and it has a palace up on the highest hill within the bounds of the city. That's not true of London, but it's true of other places. And London wasn't the only city burned by attack; there were many others. But yeah, I mean Jim had a huge number of books in his reference library, and he traveled a lot as well, so he saw many of these places, and in typical Jim fashion...you know, I wouldn't be surprised if he had eight or ten or twelve influences in the creation of Cairhien.

ANDREW GELOS

That's great, because what actually caught my notice—because, even the Great Fire of 1666 probably would have passed me by in connection to the Wheel of Time world, except for the fact that, then I looked at the semi-Puritanical dress that the nobles in the city were taken to wearing, and then we were…I actually on the day I thought of this question was sitting there looking at a screen with the picture of Oliver Cromwell, the Lord Protector, and I was just like, "You know, that's like, almost what I kind of envisioned the Cairhienin nobility to kind of look like."

VIRGINIA

Well, one thing we've never seen in any of the Wheel of Time history that I can recall—and London, just talking about it brought it to mind—is, we've never seen a large-scale plague in history, like with the Great Plague of the year…I've forgotten now.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Mmhmm.

MARIA SIMONS

Yeah.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Well, of course, so many of the rats have been eliminated, but they're back now.

VIRGINIA

They're back! Maybe your plague is coming, like they need more trouble. [laughter]

MARIA SIMONS

The Last… (cross-talk)

VIRGINIA

No, go ahead…

MARIA SIMONS

The Last Battle is…

JENNIFER LIANG

It's funny that you brought up London as an influence, because most people when they're talking about influences on Cairhien, they really pick up on the court of the Sun King and Marie Antoinette because the style is very, you know, 1700s, late-1700s and Marie Antoinette, and there's also a lot of Japanese influence, and that tends to be what people pick up on. So this is the first time I've had somebody say, "You know, I think there's a London in Cairhien," so that's kind of interesting.

VIRGINIA

I guess everybody brings something different to the books, and interprets them in their own way.

JENNIFER LIANG

Oh yeah, definitely.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Yeah, another interesting point: anyone remember what the name Cairhien means in the Old Tongue?

ANDREW GELOS

Hill of the Golden Dawn.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Hill of the Golden Dawn. The Order of the Golden Dawn was an occult society in London back before the beginning of the 20th Century.

FOOTNOTE

VIRGINIA

Yeah, that's right. I'd forgotten that.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Which I just bring out as, you know, yet another thing that Jim latched on to and threw into the mix.

JENNIFER LIANG

Most people think 'the hill of the golden dawn' is like, 'Oh, the land of the rising sun!' which would be Japan, because there's a heavy Japanese influence in just the style of the buildings and things like that seem very Japanese.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Sure. And the Sun King of France.

JENNIFER LIANG

Yeah. It's kind of like he just pulled everything that was related to the sun and just kind of melded it together to make Cairhien.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Yeah.

MARIA SIMONS

He liked mixing things up.

JENNIFER LIANG

And it works really well. That's the surprising thing to me is that he was able to pull from so many different sources and make things seem very coherent and logical for the cultures.

VIRGINIA

Yeah, I like the fact that everything that you read as you're going along, all these things sort of tug at the back of your mind and you're thinking, 'Oh, this reminds me of this, and this reminds me of that', and it makes you really think that it adds a depth to the thing that you can come back later and explore it again.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Okay, I've got a game for you. Go to Wikipedia. Put in something like 'golden dawn', let's say…or just anything. Pull anything from the Wheel of Time books that's distinctive. Put it into Wikipedia until you find a hit. I almost guarantee, within that article, you're going to find yet another reference from the Wheel of Time. Track that. See how many hits you can go before you run out.

VIRGINIA

I'll have to try that.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

I did that the other day, and I wound up spending an hour and a half of just going from one thing to another. It was really amazing.

JENNIFER LIANG

Yeah, I can see myself losing an afternoon doing that.

VIRGINIA

Oh yeah, easily.

SPENCER POWELL

Very easily.

JENNIFER LIANG

I've lost too many hours to Wiki-walking already.

VIRGINIA

I guess that's why it bothers me so much about that library ter'angreal…if I had that, I'd never be able to put it down, and I guess I just don't understand how somebody could…if they can't deal with it, then delegate, but this is me. It's the equivalent of having a computer hooked up to the internet; I could not walk away from it. It would be a Mindtrap for me. [laughter]

wot influences, cairhien, alan, maria,

4th Age Podcast Interview with Team Jordan (Verbatim)

Okay. Well…I guess we'll just go into the pronunciations.

SPENCER POWELL

Well, our next little bit needs a little bit of a lead-in for our listeners who don't have access to our huge list of questions like we do. As part of our interview questions, we have a list of words, and we asked, "How do you pronounce each of these words?" And there are about 43 of them. There are probably some on here that don't need to be on here, and I know that there aren't some on here that should be, but these are the 43 that we came up with.

VIRGINIA

Yeah, Spencer got mad at me because I went and annotated the list, like…I gotta be exact, and he's like "No…"

SPENCER POWELL

I didn't get mad at you! I just took 'em off; I'm like, "Oh yeah, you're right; take that one off." Anyway. And so Maria, Alan…would you please go through the list and tell us how to pronounce these names and places?

Okay, here we go. And I may, you know, be wrong on some. But others, I'm pretty sure of.

VIRGINIA

And feel free to add some in if something occurs to you as you're going.

MARIA SIMONS

O-kay. We have add-uh-LAY-us. (Adeleas) el-FINN. (Aelfinn) eyes-DEYE-shar. (Aesdaishar) (RJ used EYE to rhyme with the word 'eye') ahm-uh-DEE-see-uh. (Amadicia) [glossary: ah-mah-DEE-see-ah] (ah=ahhh sound, uh=schwa) ERR-id doe-MAHN. (Arad Doman) [glossary: AH-rad do-MAHN] arr-uh-FELL. (Arafel) [glossary: AH-rah-fehl] brr-GEE-tuh. (Birgitte) (hard G) [glossary: ber-GEET-teh] Brenn. (Bryne) [glossary: BRIHN, GAH-rehth] KEYE-ree-enn. (Cairhien) [glossary: KEYE-ree-EHN] CHA fah-EEL. (Cha Faile) (mid ch) drag-car. (Draghkar) [glossary: DRAGH-kahr] EEL-finn. (Eelfinn) guh-LAHD. (Galad) [glossary: gah-LAHD] GAH-win. (Gawyn) [glossary: GAH-wihn] GALE-donn. (Ghealdan) [glossary: GHEL-dahn] I'm not sure if it's huh-REEN or huh-REEN-uh. (Harine) din toe-GAHR-uh Two Winds. ILL-ee-in. (Illian) [glossary: IHL-lee-ahn] ill-ee-AY-nuh. (? - AY is long A) CAN-door. (Kandor) (door like the word) lee-AH-nuh. (Leane) [glossary: lee-AHN-eh shah-REEF] mall-KEER. (Malkier) [glossary: mahl-KEER] my-EEN. (Mayene) [glossary: may-EHN] myur-an-DEE. (Murandy) [glossary: MEW-ran-dee] MEER-drahl. (Myrddraal) [glossary: MUHRD-draal] NEIGH-bliss. Sorry. NAY-bliss. [laughter] (Nae'blis) NEFF. (Naeff?) nee-AHM Passes (Niamh Passes) nigh-NEEV. (Nynaeve) [glossary: NIGH-neev al-MEER-ah] Plains of mah-REE-doh. (Plains of Maredo) ree-AH-nuh. (Reanne) seye-DAR. (saidar). [glossary: sah-ih-DAHR] seye-DEEN. (saidin) [glossary: sah-ih-DEEN] sall-DAY-uh. (Saldaea) [glossary: sahl-DAY-ee-ya] see-AEN. (Seaine?) Alan…

ALAN ROMANCZUK

SHE-nar.

MARIA SIMONS

SHE-nar. (Shienar) [glossary: shy-NAHR] Swan. (Siuan) [glossary: SWAHN SAHN-chay] sor-uh-LEE-uh. (Sorilea) [glossary: soh-rih-LEE-ah] terra-BONN. (Tarabon) [glossary: TAH-rah-BON] TAR-win's Gap. (Tarwin's Gap) tell-uh-RON-ree-odd. (Tel'aran'rhiod) [glossary: tel-AYE-rahn-rhee-ODD] Tower of genn-JEYE. (Ghenjei) (hard G) truh-MALL-king. (Tremalking) [glossary: treh-MAL-king] too-AH-thuh-AHN. (Tuatha'an) [glossary: too-AH-thah-AHN]

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Do you want to go over the saidar/saidin thing we talked about?

MARIA SIMONS

In the glossaries of the books, Jim has it sah-ih-DEEN and sah-ih-DAHR, but I swear, I don't think he pronounced it that way; I mean you kind of give a little hint of the i but not much: sah-ee-DEEN, sah-ee-DAHR.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Yeah, he always seemed to be saying seye-DEEN and seye-DAHR.

SPENCER POWELL

I'm surprised at how many of those I thought I knew, but I didn't.

JENNIFER LIANG

Yeah. That's like, "Waait a second, that's not…but oh, I guess it is."

MARK

How do you pronounce the Traveling people again?

MARIA SIMONS

too-AH-thah-AHN.

VIRGINIA

There's something else with the double A there…

MARIA SIMONS

ah-tha-AHN mee-AIR. (Atha'an Miere)

VIRGINIA

Okay, great. Any others you can think of that are commonly mangled, that would have driven Jim crazy?

MARIA SIMONS

I think I've mentioned tah-EEM before, and egg-ee-AH-nin…

VIRGINIA

dee-MAN-dred? dee-MAHN-dred? DEE-man-dred?

MARIA SIMONS

Ehh...dee-MAHN-dred, I think…but I wouldn't swear dee-MAHN-dred. [glossary: DEE-man-drehd]

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Pretty straightforward.

VIRGINIA

How about all of the Forsaken? A lot of them often get mangled, or a few. GRIN-doll?

MARIA SIMONS

Grindle, is how I say it. [glossary: GREHN-dahl] And it's interesting, just looking at a thing, and I pronounce CADD-in-soar (cadin'sor) wrong. [glossary: KAH-dihn-sohr]

JENNIFER LIANG

Oh really?

MARIA SIMONS

Yeah, because it's supposed to be cah-DIN-soar. [It's not, according to the glossary.]

JENNIFER LIANG

Okay, because I say it the way you say it.

VIRGINIA

Yeah, I think… [inaudible] so that makes sense.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Oh! ish-AH-may-el, and SAM-may-el. [glossary: ih-SHAH-may-EHL, SAHM-may-EHL] [When RJ said it, the 'may' part was more like the German 'Mai'.]

JENNIFER LIANG

Yes. Those are really common mistakes; I hear that a lot.

VIRGINIA

Ben [?] was right; we had that famous tagline from the original podcast, and we had this thing…I think, "Sammael was pretty buff!" [laughter] We used that a lot, and it sort of went away when he did, I guess.

SPENCER POWELL

Another one that I have lots of problems with—and I can't believe I didn't get it on the list—but is the GOLL-um (gholam), or the…I can't even pronounce it right now.

MARK

GO-lem?

SPENCER POWELL

Yeah, the GO-lem, that's chasing Mat.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Yeah.

MARIA SIMONS

Gollum.

SPENCER POWELL

Gollum?

VIRGINIA

Oh, it's Gollum! [crosstalk]

MARIA SIMONS

I am not absolutely sure, but that's how I say it, so…

VIRGINIA

What about some of the other Seanchan beasts that made me think of, the grolm, then there were two of the others that…

MARIA SIMONS

ROCK-in (raken), and TOE-rock-in. (to'raken)

VIRGINIA

Yeah, and then there was another one, the um…

MARIA SIMONS

Torm…the book is right in front of me…

VIRGINIA

Oh, maybe it was the name of that…oh, Suroth's pet!

MARK

S'redit?

MARIA SIMONS

Oh yes, that thing. I can't remember… [crosstalk]

VIRGINIA

Mandra…Mandragal?…Almandragal.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

The LOW-par (lopar)?

VIRGINIA

Yeah, the lopar. Almandaragal was his name, or something like that?

MARIA SIMONS

Something like that. I would have to look it up.

ALAN ROMANCZUK

It was a LOW-par (lopar), wasn't it?

VIRGINIA

Yeah, lopar. I think there was another one that I couldn't…maybe I'm just hallucinating. [laughs]

MARIA SIMONS

Let's see…

VIRGINIA

I'm sure there's a zillion others I'll think of after you're off the air here with us…

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Oh, s'RED-dit (s'redit) is another one. Remember the elephant-like creature?

MARIA SIMONS

Corlm, C-O-R-L-M (I like that word). Torm…that's all I can find.

VIRGINIA

What about Tuon's new name as Empress?

MARIA SIMONS

for-too-OH-nah?

VIRGINIA

Fortuona, okay. I'm not sure how else you could pronounce that, but I've been wrong before, so...

MARIA SIMONS

That, I'm assuming is right; I'm pretty sure I heard Jim pronounce it that way, because that was his choice of name.

VIRGINIA

There must be something else; there seems like a million things, and that I didn't add enough to the list.

MARIA SIMONS

OH-geer…

ALAN ROMANCZUK

moe-TIE? (???)

VIRGINIA

Oh! What about—speaking of historical figures—LAH-tra…poe-SAI? Or poe-SAY? deh-KYU-meh? (Latra Posae Decume)

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Oh yeah, LA-tra (LA rhymes with laugh)…

VIRGINIA

I got the Latra, but I'm not sure about the second and third names.

MARIA SIMONS

Boy.

VIRGINIA

It's P-O-S-A-E, and then D-E-C-U-M-E.

MARIA SIMONS

po-SAY-uh deh-COO-may.

VIRGINIA

deh-COO-may, okay. [crosstalk]

MARIA SIMONS

That's totally off the top of my head. I see it (?) and think it, anyway. po-SAY-uh deh-COO-may, yeah.

pronunciation, maria, alan, adeleas, aelfinn, aesdaishar, amadicia, arad doman, arafel, birgitte, bryne, cairhien, cha faile, draghkar, eelfinn, galad, gawyn, geography, ghealdan, harine, illian, kandor, leane, malkier, mayene, murandy, myrddraal, nae'blis, naeff, nynaeve, reanne, saidar, saidin, saldaea, seaine, shienar, siuan, tarabon, tarwin's gap, tel'aran'rhiod, ghenjei, tremalking, tinkers, sea folk, taim, egeanin, demandred, graendal, cadin'sor, ishamael, sammael, gholam, grolm, raken, to'raken, s'redit, lopar, tuon, ogier, latra posae,

Twitter 2013 (WoT) (Verbatim)

You've said that you had to make choices from the notes at points. Can you disclose any of the paths not traveled?

Let's see... Here's one. RJ was uncertain if he wanted Elayne to have Cairhien or not by Merrilor.

elayne, cairhien, rj's notes, who wrote what?,