ow Heroes are spun
by Highbreaker: 2003-04-17 | Not yet rated
For starters, I have to disagree with you Tamyrilian; Hereos can be spun out of T'A'R and into the spirits of those already born. How else can you even begin to explain Matt. Matt spouts the Old Tounge before he ever knew what the old tounge was. Matt also gains his Taveran luck only a short time before the series starts. In tEotW, he often speaks of how his luck miraculously picked up. And continues this into the third book.
In fact, how about Rand himself? Aes Sedai look for male channelers early in life by searching out, "young boys considered especially lucky"(not an exact quote)-New Spring. Maybe you need to reread tEotW, but Rand wasn't the luckiest guy in the world. He got ragged on and beaten my Nynaeve and egwene. Their little love thing went no where until book one, and then it abruptly ended because the Pattern needed him to love E,A,& M. because the PATTERN needed it. But, before that, nothing ever happened for him.
I personally don't even think Rand had the inborn talent of channeling until the books, when LTT merged into his soul.. becoming a part of him.There are no mentions of mysterious things just happening around to keep rand out of trouble in the begining...
Now, if this is true... Gaidal Cain could easily be Oliver. Oliver is a lost soul, all of his family is dead, and he can hardly remember anything preceding that... that could have been caused by the merging. I am aware of Brigette's quote concerning being a baby, I am not suggesting that Taveran are normally spun out this way, just that if the need is great enough, they will be.
Oliver is an Ugly little boy, but he is intellegent, and already picking up chicks despite his uglyness. Matt is having him trained in weaponry, or someone at his camp is anyway, we will see what his weapons of choice are... I have a strong suspicion we will see a little dual weilder pop up real soon...
Now, I know this is all debate-able (man how do you spell that?), but I really think you have overlooked some of this information...
P.S. As a side note... what do you think is up with that one silver arrow they saved? it has to have some importance...
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1
Tamyrlin: 2003-04-24
Okay...well, of course I am right and you are wrong...for goodness sakes. ;) Here are the problems with what you are saying. First, you are not ta'veren for your whole life, the Pattern turns that on and off at will...which is why you are mixing what happens with the addition of new souls. RJ has already stated that Rand has only one soul, LTT's soul was Reborn on Dragonmount. Mat's old tongue, as Moiraine explains concerning Egwene too, comes from Old Blood. And it could easily come from the soul he is born with, why couldn't he be a Hero reborn at birth, nothing that happens to him suggests otherwise. Souls are born with talents, much like Egwene having the inborn ability to be dreamer, so why couldn't Mat be born with luck as a talent? Birgitte talks about being born or heroes being born, a baby or small child. We have no indications that anyone has two souls except for Slayer which was a melding that occurred later in life between two people who were living. I haven't seen any information that shows that the Pattern shoots the soul of Heroes into already inhabited bodies.
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Korell: 2003-04-24
First off i do not belive that Mat is a reborn hero infact the memory merging kind of negates that because he has memories of more then one person in the same time period. I belive Mat and Perrin are both NEW heros and in their death will be attached to the Horn in some way but i dont belive they are Heros reborn...besides wich Rand had never touched the source until the begining of the books wduring the flight when he gives Bela a little extra stamina..then he has his power acuisition fever when he and Mat are on the run alone...you ask why did he not channle sooner my guess would be that channling is just like everything else between women and men...Women mature faster and i think that power acusition is the same. Plus Egwene had somone there who was experienced to reach for it sooner...besides no one want anything from the Two Rivers but Tabac...besides it also leaves the holes of why did they not check the Aiel since you ask how they could not have found Rand sooner....Rand is our only Hero reborn in our Three original boys IMO as for Oliver being GC i used to think so but now i am not so sure there is a slight chance he could be but very minimal...i think Moggy might have done somthing with GC maybe if GC has been wiped out of the pattern then Oliver could be the Wheel replacing him never know thats not particularly likly but you never know
3
Rand-althor: 2003-04-24
As has been said, Mat's old tounge is from old blood, and his luck is from being Ta'avern. Before you argue that his luck started just before teotw, who says all three of them became ta'avern at the same time? Why could Mat have not become one before the other two? Rand never channeled before because he never needed anything bad enough, with nobody else he thought would help. Even with Tam, he didn't channel without knowing it because he never thought that he may be Tam's only help, he was thinking of Nyneve. Egwene was the first time he ever had a strong enough desire, and the thought that he may be the only hope to help her, so that was thr first time he channeled. Also as to Olivers memory loss, after trageties, people will often loose some memories, because they are too painful to remember. What if his mother had been wasting away through the whole time Oliver was alive, then when she died Oliver blocked out the past, so he wouldn't remember the painful memories of her slowly wasting away.
4
forge: 2003-04-25
i like the idea of olver being gaidal cain, but i dont think it is meant to be. one of the concepts of the book is rebirth. you cant just shove another soul into someones body (i beleive RJ has said something similar regarding rand and LTT). i think the D.O. DID replace some peoples souls with those of defeated forsaken, but that is due to his direct manipulation. i think gaidal cain is a baby and olver is an amusing character designed mainly to show a more compassionate side of mat
5
Therilon: 2003-04-25
Well, I have to disagree with you on this theory, Highbreaker.
"Rand wasn't the luckiest guy in the world."
Taveren are not necessarily lucky. They twist chance. This may manifest itself in luck, as it does with Mat, or it can be randomness, like that Aes Sedai symbol made out of fish that fell out of a bucket. The pattern bestows the taveren ability in order to achieve an effect, and that is the reason that some taveren are lucky. Rand al'Thor is not. His taveren abilities come in the form of influencing others (Atha'an'miere agreement).
6
Highbreaker: 2003-04-25
... ok, sorry 'bout that... I am gonna try and finish this now...
Tamyrlin:
"which is why you are mixing what happens with the addition of new souls. RJ has already stated that Rand has only one soul, LTT's soul was Reborn on Dragonmount."
Ok, I agree with you there, the only problem is that I agreed with you before you said it... you misunderstood me. I believe when someone becomes a hero of the horn (and as I said, it is much less likely for someone to BECOME a hero as oppossed to being born that way) their soul is ... adapted... like... um... IE: Rand is Rand. Rand meets the prerequisits of being the dragon. LTT gets woven INTO Rand... like, braided into rands place in the pattern.....the pattern is made up of thousands of strings interwoven, each string representing a person, place, or thing; but a string itself is not one piece of material... a string can be unwoven... Yeah, so... I hope you guys got that, 'cause t might not be too clear. Sorry
Tamyrlin:
"Mat's old tongue, as Moiraine explains concerning Egwene too, comes from Old Blood."
Umm... collective unconcious? i'm sorry... that is a little Neofruedian for me... that is a little screwed up man. I can't speak german fluently, my grandma is german. Are you really saying that mat can speak the Old tounge because his anscestors did? that is... flawed...
Tamyrlin:
"Souls are born with talents, much like Egwene having the inborn ability to be dreamer, so why couldn't Mat be born with luck as a talent?"
why did it take so long to manifest? luck has nothing to do with the OP, it should manifest at the same rate as anyother thing. The only explanation for this, is the Ta'avern one that was given before...
Tamyrlin:
"Birgitte talks about being born or heroes being born, a baby or small child."
I am aware of Brigette's quote concerning being a baby, I am not suggesting that Taveran are normally spun out this way, just that if the need is great enough, they will be. "
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Great Captain: 2003-04-28
"I belive Mat and Perrin are both NEW heros and in their death will be attached to the Horn in some way but i dont belive they are Heros reborn..." - Korell.
How do you attribute the dream in which the forsaken came to Perrin at the dragons camp in TDR. Perrin at least is a hero reborn. He stood in golden helm and armour. The ax at his side was plain as was always his choice in each life.
8
Aviendha: 2003-04-28
Tamyrlin:
"Mat's old tongue, as Moiraine explains concerning Egwene too, comes from Old Blood."
Ok, but what if Moiraine suspects that Mat is a hero of the horn? She wouldn't tell that to Egwene now would she? Maybe she just was "bending" truth a bit like Aes Sedai do.
Just a tought.
And if Mat really is a reborn hero of the horn witch hero is he?
9
Highbreaker: 2003-04-28
Korell:
" "I belive Mat and Perrin are both NEW heros and in their death will be attached to the Horn in some way but i dont belive they are Heros reborn..."
OK, the first and second times I answered this.... Bah... Chapter 1, Paragraph 1, EVERY BOOK. "There are neither ends nor beginnings to the wheel of time" Mat and Perrin can NOT be new heroes.. .that would be a Beginning...
Korel:
"channling is just like everything else between women and men...Women mature faster and i think that power acusition is the same."
Ok... I concede this, but... Rand is still 2 years older than her, and she has already sparked at the beginning of TEotW... Nynaeve says so.
Rand-Al'Thor:
"Before you argue that his luck started just before teotw, who says all three of them became ta'avern at the same time? Why could Mat have not become one before the other two?"
For the third time, I have to write how I am dead wrong and you are right... For the third timeI am gonna say that I was being stupid...
Rand-Al'Thor:
"Also as to Olivers memory loss, after trageties, people will often loose some memories, because they are too painful to remember."
For the last time... Repression is debated. It might not exist. It violates basic human nature. Freud waas a nut. People, normally, remember things that highly affect them. If your plane crashed, or a family member died... you have a higher chance of remembering that instance... Millions of people remember where they were when JFK was assassinated, or when they saw the planes hit the Twin Towers... It works like that on personal matters too.... I don't know if Repression exists, but I also don't know where RJ stnds on thsi hotly debated Topic... Do you?
Rand-Al'Thor:
"Even with Tam, he didn't channel without knowing it because he never thought that he may be Tam's only help, he was thinking of Nyneve."
I am not sure about the Nynaeve thing... I can't remember that, but I know that Tam s one of the most important things in the world to Rand, I bet he is more important to him than Egwene was...At that time he was not sure how he felt about Egwene, but he knew he loved his father... Long story short; Rand would've saved his father if he could...
10
Callandor: 2003-04-28
Korell:
" "I belive Mat and Perrin are both NEW heros and in their death will be attached to the Horn in some way but i dont belive they are Heros reborn..."
OK, the first and second times I answered this.... Bah... Chapter 1, Paragraph 1, EVERY BOOK. "There are neither ends nor beginnings to the wheel of time" Mat and Perrin can NOT be new heroes.. .that would be a Beginning... (by Highbreaker)
That itself is wrong. Hawkwing says that the wheel **always adds to our number** in TGH. If there are no new addings then why would Hawkwing lie?
11
Mashiara: 2003-04-29
Callandor:
The exact quote is "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, my friend" (tGH, 662). This is very different from always.
Now, assuming that heroes can't be unspun, as supported by Birgitte's quote "We have all of time" (tGH, 661), this means that since there are only a "little more than a hundred" (tGH, 660) Heroes of the Horn, and Hawkwing cites having co-existed with Rand in multiple ages "beyond number" (tGH, 661), it must indeed be a very rare occurence for "new heroes" to be spun out.
"No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless." --Robert Jordan
It makes it safe to assume, then, and well-supported, that Matt and Perrin have existed before in other turnings of the Wheel.
Besides which, it really is quite possible that Hawkwing could be flat out lying. Remember, he only says this to make Hurin feel better. Unless you contend that RJ has some sort of agenda to push with this statement (which he very well may have), I don't think there is a very good case to put must weight to this statement.
Forge:
I have no idea why you're debating Highbreaker about when the boys got their ta'veren-ness...RJ has clearly said that it happened a few weeks before the books started. (I can't find the quote but I am certain I have read it in an interview). So I'm not really sure what you meant by that...
I have to go to class now but I thought there was a Birgitte quote that implied that Gaidal could be over the age of one...young, but not *that* young.
12
Therilon: 2003-05-02
Some more points...
1)Why? 1) Mat begins spouting the Old Tongue because of his Old Blood. This is an ability that Moiraine mentions several times, along with several other AS. If you don't believe me, do a search on it. It's nothing to do with Heroes of the Horn as people other than him have the ability.
"Umm... collective unconcious? i'm sorry... that is a little Neofruedian for me... that is a little screwed up man. I can't speak german fluently, my grandma is german. Are you really saying that mat can speak the Old tounge because his anscestors did? that is... flawed..."
It's a book. RJ can do what he likes.
2) "why did it take so long to manifest? luck has nothing to do with the OP, it should manifest at the same rate as anyother thing. The only explanation for this, is the Ta'avern one that was given before..."
Highbrother, if we take this as truth, then why did Min's talent manifest when she was 12 or 13? Why wouldn't it manifest when she was a child?
3) "OK, the first and second times I answered this.... Bah... Chapter 1, Paragraph 1, EVERY BOOK. "There are neither ends nor beginnings to the wheel of time" Mat and Perrin can NOT be new heroes.. .that would be a Beginning..."
Umm. Else was only made a novice once. I think that that was a beginning... The quote IMO means that the wheel of time was always spinning, not that there was no beginning to it.
13
scion2: 2003-05-04
Well the with mat is, I think his memories are just random memories from whoever, he never asked for _his_ memories back he just asked for something to fill the holes in his memories. This leads me to believe that he is not, in fact, a hero reborn but is a candidate for heroism when he dies. As for Rand's "voice" I figure he is just nuts and it has nothing to do with a "second soul".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that Birgitte said that though Gaidal wasn't always "beautiful" he was always somewhat attractive, this doesn't really fit Olver's obvious disfigurement. This on top of Olver's age convinces me he is not Gaidal.
14
Shadowstalker: 2003-05-06
scion2:
"This on top of Olver's age convinces me he is not Gaidal."
I disagree. I think it was mentioned that Olver is ten, or so he claims. But why would he remember his age, though nothing else? I think he may have been given Gaidal's soul, as Highbreaker theorised.
Olver is similar to Gaidal in a number of ways. He is unattractive, has a thing about beautiful or busty women, and is intelligent. To me, for someone of his age, even if he is ten, Olver is very smart and mature. As for Snakes and Foxes? Well, maybe Gaidal is just using that as a mask of innocence and youth.
Anyway, if I have repeated information, sorry, I'm in a bit of a rush.
15
Obsidius: 2003-05-06
I believe Olver is in fact Gaidal Cain reborn. Notice that Birgitte stated that Gaidal Cain was no longer around and he had been reborn to Nynaeve, when Nynaeve was asking her for help with Moggy. Time flows differently for the heroes within telaranrhoid, making the fact that Olver is ten years old completely irrelevant. It is entirely possible that Olver is Gaidal Cain reborn.
16
Callandor: 2003-05-07
Olver isnt Cain. Just accept it. RJ has said it so its a slap in the face and sealed. Its most likely that Cain has been reborn but not as Olver.
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Korell: 2003-05-08
Just to clarify to doubters i did not say that Mat and Perrin never existed before in the wheel only that they may be new heros to the horn after this age...also
Mashiara
"No... Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless." --Robert Jordan
The exact quote is "Sometimes the Wheel adds to our number, my friend" (tGH, 662). This is very different from always.
Think about it this way jordan said that nothing changes....and Hawkwing says that somtimes there are aditions to their number...that would indicate to me that every turning there is that "somtimes" involved and how do we know exactly how many are their numbers? we have no idea there could be thousands and some a merly spun out already there is no basis for how many heros of the horn there are so that is not a valid statment...and you cannot assume a hero can be unspun because if a hero were Balefired they would cease to exist thefore they could not be respun and as you say they would be efectivly unspun....thanks for the support Callandor
also Highbreaker you commented on Rand being 2 years older women start to mature as early as 10 and end around the age of 18 or so men start around 12 and never REALLY end they stop maturing around 21 or 22 somtimes even later...i read a medical thing once that had somthing to do with men are genraly more unhealthy and more suceptable to certain problems BECAUSE they mature later maybe if it is like a maturing thing it happenes at the end of maturation however in the same note it is odd that Rand did not channle for his father because it did not happen all that much before he healed Bela so there i contradicted myself even LOL
18
anderwarrick: 2003-06-09
okay, Mat and Perrin are _not_ heroes of the horn. Otherwise why didn't Hawkwing talk to them, telling them like what hero they were, just like Rand? It would make sense that at least one of the heroes would mention that they were heroes too, dont you think? I mean, if you saw an old friend that you hadn't seen for about 20 years, wouldnt you say something to them? it makes sense, doesnt it? they are just likely to become a hero, bound to the horn.
19
Rand-althor: 2003-06-09
Time does flow differently, but not backwards. Perrin, and I believe Elayne saw GC in TAR. Unless you are trying to make me believe that the series has been going on for 10 years, which would make the heros over thirty (which is wrong cause its only been 2-3 years) then Gaidal CANT have been spun out and grown into Oliver. If you can show me some proof from the books that Hero's can be woven into people, ie other examples, comments made regarding it, etc, then if it is good enough I will believe it. But currently, all the similarities are conincedence. Oliver is ugly, big deal, there are lots of ugly kids out there, thats no form of proof.
20
rubbernilly: 2003-06-10
Good grief:
Olver is not GC.
RJ has said so.
Logic says so.
Timing says so.
If you don't believe any of this (quite egotistical to doubt RJ about his own writing), then go read the theory "Why no one in the world over the age of 1 can be Gaidal Cain." I and others have explained this ad nauseam there.
