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orsaken Reborn?

by Ellistann: 2003-08-18 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: The Wheel of Time

This goes against the grain for a lot of people, but what makes Rand so special? He's just a thread in the pattern like any other, except the fact he's central to it. The name of the series is the Wheel of Time, and the central concept, good vs. evil spun out over and over again. Good (Rand) gets the recurring hero, lets look at evil.
The one that tipped me off to everything is Demandred's supposed role as Mazrim Taim. We now know that isn't true, but a few years ago the topic was as clear as mud. Look back at the archives to see what I mean. But everyone was comparing points to see yes or no about Taim. The thing no one thought about was what about both being the same soul.
The series always talks about how the Creator making the wheel without regard to how a person lives, because the "Lace of the Age" needs black just as much as white. Perrin makes mention of how he is surprised the Creator would stick good steel and sickly metal side by side. Moiraine also mentions it a few times but the point is that the Creator has no regard to good and evil. He is simply telling the story and stands back to watch. We all know that T'A'R has the Souls of the heroes of the AOL, but what about the villans, aren't they worthy "characters" the Creator may need to tell the story correctly?
Good has recurring characters, why not evil. Stick with me here, In the AOL, LTT fought his war with the shadow and won (or lost depending on your point of view) goes insane and kills himself. Fast foward a few thousand years, and here's Rand freshly spun into the world. The Wheel knows he is to fight the shadow and pulls out the antagonists that he is supposed to fight, and spins them out as needed. Taim and Demandred are just one example.

Look at the black ajah. You'll notice some central themes. Like a healer that loves to kill, and more importantly dish out pain. Sound familiar? Semirage of course. Look at the rest of the Black Ajah and look for some common themes, like a coward who strikes only targets that can't strike back, and has a strong raw talent for compulsion(Mog)sounds like Liandrian to me. Or a stoic teacher thats evil as well. As far as the male forsaken reborn, I'm not to keen on it now, but Look for a skilled swordsman who loves outdoing Rand in anyway(Belial)To me that sounds like Gedwyn as well.

Most people have a problem with the fact the Forsakens souls are still in the world, namely as the Forsaken. Well scale the time back 20 - 30 years. The dragon gets reborn, shouldn't his adveraries be reborn too. The Wheel looks at the board and says the Dragons needs to be reborn, double checks, yep no dragon here, and issues the world a dragon. The dragon needs a villan to fight against, so the wheel looks sees no Forsaken ( all the forsaken are outside the pattern in the seal, remember)and issues the world 13 forsaken.

I wish I had my books handy, currently I am in Iraq, so please tear this theory to shreads, in trying to you will find more facts helping this theory than hindering. And maybe you can find more I can't.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-08-26

Maybe this goes back to the concept that the Pattern attempts to balance the world, and in doing so, allows for there to be good and evil coexisting. But, according to your theory, how do you explain the Age of Legends? Why didn't the Pattern pull in a couple of bad guys and destroy that Age before it had time to become so legendary. Obviously, the AoL, previous to the breaking, was an amazing Age, one in which war was not learned, in which you could only read of war in previous ages. My opinion is free choice dictates the tide of the battle of good and evil. In other words, the seals were about to break, so the Pattern threw Rand and company in to prevent the DO's escape, but the AoL would indicate that the Pattern doesn't necessarily try to prevent too much good in the world. It wasn't the Pattern's choice that Lanfear found the bore, instead, it was her greed, the evil inside of her, that led to the Breaking. But the heroes have no choice as to when they are born, and we aren't aware of any of the heroes being used by the Pattern to further the cause of evil are we? Interesting thoughts, I am sure you will get some quotes. :)

2

spearmaiden: 2003-08-26

I am a little confused. Are you saying that your present-day examples (Gedwyn, Liandrin, Taim, etc.) are actually the Forsaken's souls reborn? Or just that they are a personality type that the pattern needed to spin out to be whole and balanced?

I can see the personality-type argument, that's an interesting idea. But it sounds to me that you're saying that Taim and Demandred are the same soul, and that's not possible, since they're both alive at the same time!

3

Callandor: 2003-08-26

**This goes against the grain for a lot of people, but what makes Rand so special?**

He is a specific soul reborn according to prophecy.

I'm also with spearmaiden, if you are saying that the Pattern basically copied some Forsaken souls and put them back into the Pattern as Taim, Gedwyn, and Liandrian that would never happen. The Forsaken were sealed away with their souls and I highly doubt the Pattern is capible of anything like that.

If the Pattern needed Rand to have some enemies to fight, the releasing of the Forsaken should be more then enough. But since the Pattern wants certain events to happen so other events can happen, thats when you will get Coulidin, Taim, Gedwyn, and Liandrian (and more of course).

4

Eelfinn Ty: 2003-08-29

Why couldn't the forsaken be reborn in another age? I don't think they could be reborn as Liandrian or Gedwyn, but couldn't the DO toss a forsaken soul into the world when he thought the time ripe? I forget which book, but I seem to remember Mordin saying that he can recall the DO and the Dragon fighting many times before. This would indicate that Mordin has lived though all these battles in one form or another. To do that he would have had to be reborn. If anyone remembers the lines, or if i'm wrong let me know.

5

heronblade: 2003-08-30

but surely souls cant be re-born before dying. they have to go to the place where souls go to be reborn. if there was an overlying prophesy that said the drb had to fight this list of badguys to win then maybe the patten could have spun out new souls with the same charactoristics but i dont c how these could b the same souls. the elements of the people you are describing arnt unique to those people, its not a nice fact but not everyones as pure as the driven snow. envy, enjoyment of pain, cowedice and a need to be the best what ever the cost are found in every one to a cirtain extent and do not necasserally point to a particular individual...

6

Callandor: 2003-08-30

Ishamael was the first one to figure out the epic battle that had been going on between the Light (the Dragon) and the Dark (the DO's Champion (Nae'blis this Age, maybe in others)). But unless I see a quote saying Ishamael or Moridin lived in all those previous ages, I will never believe it is someone making him come back besides the Pattern.