art by Darrell K. Sweet

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets


Home | Index | Archives | Help

ow Moridin killed Asmodean

by Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-23 | 3.6 out of 10 (10 votes)

Previous Categories: Who Killed Asmodean

This is how Moridin killed Asmodean:

Moridin has the habit of using his skulker mask and True Power to hide in the open presence of Forsaken-class channelers. In The Fires of Heaven, he was watching Rand in Cairhien, and followed him to Caemlyn. He witnessed the battle with Rahvin. He waited for Asmodean to be alone, and seeing which door he was headed to, he Traveled using the True Power to interecpt him.

Asmodean recognized Moridin because the True Power also provided a Mask of Mirrors for Moridin to show his old face. Moridin sliced Asmodean to bits with a lethal True Power weave and destroyed the evidence with the True Power as well.

Moridin's motive was that he had been ordered to bring the Forsaken in line. He started with the biggest traitor, Asmodean. He then arranged Lanfear's mindtrapping as her punishment for her part in Asmodean's teaching Rand. Next, Moghedien was punished for teaching Egwene, then Samamel was disposed of with Moridin's assistance for disobeying orders. Next, Graendal was reined in for her part in Sammael's schemes. Finally, the remaining Forsaken acknowledged Moridin as Nae'blis.

We knew Ishamael could have been resurrected because we have been told numerous times that the Dark One is Lord of the Grave and can resurrect the dead. Ilyena Sunhair, Kari al'Thor, Howal Gode, Aginor and Balthamel have all been referred to with respect to being brought back to life. Even Mat somehow acquired dead men's memories, indicating that dead souls may be more accessible than is generally believed. Isam's soul was even transmigrated into Luc's body, in exactly the same fashion as the Forsaken later were.
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please log in.



Tamyrlin: 2003-07-28

Your in-depth theory on the message board is where your support for your claims exists, but I will continue to point out that the DO has never exhibited the power to transmigrate souls that were not attached to him and that the only person we have ever seen interacting with supposed dead souls is Ishamael and it always occurs in T'A'R...mysteriously, the place where thought can create anyone or anything, illusion my friend, illusions. The test Moridin fails is the intutive test. He isn't that obvious, but a possibility nonetheless.


rubbernilly: 2003-07-28

Moridin/Ishamael does not pass the obviosity test.

<----Remains apathetic.


Mairashda: 2003-07-28

er... we didn't get to know about moridin until way into CoS so he fails the inevitable "anybody-of-moderate-intelligence-could..." test. (and we all know it was graendal that did it...:->)


Callandor: 2003-07-28

Ilyena: trick, taunt to get LTT to join the Dark one final time.

Kari: Ishy made an illusion in TAR.

Gode: Another illusion provided by Ishy in TAR.

Aginor and Balthamel: Brought back after LoC, and the quote in TEOTW was refering to when they freed the GL and they are having one serious ego trip in thinking they can free him.


Callandor: 2003-07-28

Forgot to mention... all this "evidence" doesn't prove that we can guess at a rebirth for a Forsaken.

So, Moridin fails obviousness really badly.


juitzhead: 2003-07-28

I dont believe that the DO can re-surrect or touch any soul he chooses, only those sworn to him. But one thing is confusing:

"Rand's scream echoed hers. The void boiled in his mind. His sword was in his hand. Not the heron-mark blade, but a blade of light, a blade of the Light. Even as he raised it, a fiery white bolt shot from the point, as if the blade itself had reached out. It touched the nearest Fade, and blinding candescence filled the chamber, shining through the Halfmen like a candle through paper, burning through them, blinding his eyes to the scene.

From the midst of the brilliance, he heard a whisper. "Thank you, my son. The Light. The blessed Light." - tEotW

why would an illusion of Kari say thankyou to Rand as it is freed?


Rand-althor: 2003-07-28

Kari thanked Rand because she existed in TAR. The same way Bela existed in TAR and acted the way she would have when Egwene created her. In the same way Gode and Kari acted how THEY would have. IF Kari had been caught and put under those curcumstances, thats exactly the way she would have acted, desperate, and thankful for a way out.


Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-07-29

Was too obvious!

Transmigration was shown to us in the form of Slayer in Book 4, with the Dark Prophecy in Book 2 being the 'proof.' If Darkfriends like Isam get new bodies after death, then obviously, so does Ishamael.

I challenge you to find something obvious enough to match RJ's comment on obviousness: "I don't have to tell them water is wet" The only thing that comes close is Lord of the Grave and Transmigration, as shown by Slayer.


Dorindha: 2003-07-29

I always thought of Slayer being a "merge" rather than transmigration, and it was not obvious that Ishamael would come back in a new body.


Korell: 2003-07-29

That still does not negate the fact that we never see Mordin until COS and and when we first see him we do not know he is Ishy reborn not to mention RJ has said many times that you can figure out who killed asmodean based on infromation up to the time he was killed thefore Mordin could not have killed Asmo because he was not around yet and we would have no reason to suspect it was Him i dont know how somone we dont even know about could be the odvious killer you dont have to accept it but Mordin does not even make the top 3 suspect list besides i personally think the DO had better things to do then send Na Blis after Asmo Mordin was getting the Forsaken in line i dont think anyone by that point treated Asmo like a forsaken anymore they saw him as a trator and no longer one of their number


rubbernilly: 2003-07-29

No, no, I tell you, it is sooo obvious who killed Asmodean (spoken with the sarcasm musterable by only one who has joined the "Apathetic to Asmodean's Killer" faction).

The killer is:


You heard me. I've submitted a theory to this site that will explain all of the evidence... which really isn't evidence any more than anyone else's wild claims are evidence, but it is humerous.

But once you read it, you will completely understand that the Green Man is the only viable, common sense killer that we have as a suspect.

And you didn't even know to suspect him, did you? Well, you should have. It's sooooo intuitive.


Rand-althor: 2003-07-29

You can't really respond to his "I dont have to tell them water is wet" coment because he is looking at it from a perspective that knows who the killer is. Because he knows that, every single peice of evidence is obvious to him. It is like puzzle games. When you find the answer, it is obvious, but untill then you have no idea what it possably could have been. After the fact it is obvious. That is the way RJ sees it.


Rand-althor: 2003-07-29

Also Isam/Luc seems to be a 'counterpart' to Rand in a way. Rand is 2 personalities, 1 body, Isam/Luc is 2 bodies, 1 personallity


juitzhead: 2003-07-30

Isam is 2 bodies, 2 personalities and he can be either in TAR or in the real world.


Korell: 2003-07-30

Actually Slayer is not 2 personalities in such the manner of speaking Rand has schizophrenia and does not really have multiple personalities they are 2 diffrent psychological disorders that have commonalities but are not the same Slayer on the other had has 1 body and 2 souls not personalities now if they have merged to become one soul then the MPD would apply because somtimes he is Isam and somtimes he is Luc as for 2 bodies he only has one actual body and can change what he looks like that is another interesting question though how does he do that? anyway the point is Rand is Schizo not MPD and Slayer has 2 souls


KhaladHoE: 2003-07-31

I am thinking its Taim as killed asmodean. he passes the obvious test and since he knows WAY too much to be just another man that can channel .. ie travelling / sensing other men channel ... he also hates rand and he has to know that rand is being taught by someone if he figured out who it was he would kill them if possible but then again maybe he didn't know and asmo was a kill of opportunity ie taim being the DF he is goes to help / warn rahvin and asmodean runs into him and taim whackes me for it .. so Wrong place Wrong time murder not really a planned thing ... but thats just what I think ...


juitzhead: 2003-07-31

Taim doesnt pass the obvious test. You are using information from AFTER tFoH to base your desicion. The 'intiutively obvious' at the time of death test isn't passed by Taim. All we had heard was that Taim was in Caemlyn and that he was a false dragon.

i posted some stuff on the "To Balefire or Not to balefire" thread on how i think that Asmo was killed. Didnt say who just with what. This was using all the info i could find from Pre and Post tFoH.

RJ stated that we should be able to figure out who and how from evidence in the following books (6, 7, 8)

what we find is that:

1. souls can be transmigrated

2. balefire weave is seen/detected by men, even if channeled by women.

3. The TP is not detectable except by those wielding it.

4. Both death scenes for Be'lal and Asmo have a "No!" hanging in the air after their deaths. Be'lal was balefired.

So, Asmo was killed by some TP wielding Forsaken with balefire. Most likely candidate - Ishy/Moridin.

so GL, quickly become an Elder, start a faction and I will join.


Callandor: 2003-07-31

**I am thinking its Taim as killed asmodean. he passes the obvious test and since he knows WAY too much to be just another man that can channel .. ie travelling / sensing other men channel ... he also hates rand and he has to know that rand is being taught by someone if he figured out who it was he would kill them if possible**

And how is Taim supposed to know, that Rand has a male Forsaken teaching him, when that Forsaken is already dead? Or if not dead, how is he supposed to get close enough and follow Rand long enough to know? Moiraine is the only one, besides the killer, who did find out.

**but then again maybe he didn't know and asmo was a kill of opportunity ie taim being the DF he is goes to help / warn rahvin and asmodean runs into him and taim whackes me for it .. so Wrong place Wrong time murder not really a planned thing ... but thats just what I think ...**

One thing kills this: how would Asmodean recognize him?

Also, 2 things are possible with Taim: 1) he knew how to Travel and kept secret, or 2) he didn't know how to Travel, but knew the term.

Also any male channeler can sense another male channeler, its just difficult under different times. But as for finding men who can channel, that implies that he was found as well and picked it up that way.


Particleman: 2003-08-03

I am not absolutely sure any of the forsaken are dead yet. There is a male channeler in the rebel camp and I belive it is Halima (some things he makes too obvious and others not). I guess I am being too obvious here but it is so non-the-less. Some things never change and untill the last battle non of the forsaken will die. They will just be removed for a while.


Particleman: 2003-08-03

Oh ya, and all that was meant to say that Halima is Asmodean


Jiana: 2003-08-04

Particleman: You have GOT to be kidding. Halima isn't Asmodean at all. It's pretty much common knowledge that Halima is Aran'gar, which is Balthamel. The DO's joke on Balthamel, who was very much a, ummmm, ladies man, was to resurrect him in a woman's body.


Callandor: 2003-08-04

Halima is Aran'gar, she says this flat out. Aran'gar is Balthamel reincarnated.

Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael, and Asmodean are dead for sure. Osan'gar might come back, but I think he's gone for good.


Particleman: 2003-08-04

Ok Jiana and Callandor, you got me there, should have done my homework better, couldn't remember who was the "ladies man". While I agree that Be'lal, Rahvin and Sammael are dead I still don't believe Asmodean is (sorry). Nowhere does it say he was killed by balefire and there are many forms of death. In LOC pg 5 the only one the DO specifically admits to being beyond his reach is Rahvin. Am in the process of re-reading them all again and, not to be a goat, but I need more proof he is DEAD dead before i will admit to it.


Shadow Bane: 2003-08-05

i think the DO said he wasnt going to bring Asmo back, something like "why would i bring back that worthless trader"


Callandor: 2003-08-05

RJ said in an interview that the DO couldn't bring back Asmodean even if he wanted to.


juitzhead: 2003-08-05

so to expand on Callandors point for Particleman, it means he either cant because:

1. Rand cutoff his black chord connection to the DO in TSR. This means that the DO cannot transmigrate him into a new body, even if he dies a normal death. He'll be reborn sometime in the future a Joey Joe Joe in the 5th Age.

2. He was balefired, and the DO cannot transmigrate those balefired. But by comments on a new interview by RJ, the black chords are the reason he cant be transmigrated.

and Asmo did die, "death took him". Pretty clear he's dead. And 'death' is not a play on words implying Moridin.(RJ said so)


Particleman: 2003-08-06

Ok, alright, I give. Working on something else anyway. Probably belongs in the predictions board as I have little evidence but it is too long for there. Maybe a "suppositions board would be in order? :)


Callandor: 2003-08-06

From the WOT FAQ:

**Yes, he's dead. No, Moridin did not kidnap him. First of all, RJ clearly takes this series too seriously to use such a dastardly pun. Secondly, RJ told Yancy Davis at a post-POD signing in Northern Virginia that Asmodean is "road kill." "He also used the line, 'He's a cat that tried to cross the tracks and didn't quite make it.' Also, when I said, 'so he won't be back' he responded, 'No, he will not be coming back.'" [Yancy Davis] Third, Aaron Bergman asked this question at a post-POD book-signing in New York: "In particular, I asked whether "death" was just a pun on "Moridin". He said "oh, god no" quite disgustedly." Thankfully, that's the end of that theory.**

Said simply: he's dead.


Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-08-08

Lots of comments about obviousness, so let me try to address some...

There are 6 statements in TEotW stating that the Great Lord can ressurect the Dead. You may think they're all lies, illusions, and such, but 6! occasions in the First Book means RJ intended resurrection to be possible in his universe. I don't have to tell them Water is wet, I don't have to tell them Th eLord of the Grave is the Lord of the Grave. Is it obvious or not, as of Book 1? Book 2? During which book is it that you're no longer sure it's obvious. T'A'R was only discussed briefly in Book 3, the power of illusion screated there only fully fleshed out in Books 5 and 6. When exactly does it become obvious that Ishy was lying about Ilyena, and faked Kari and Gode? Oh and let's not forget Aginor and Balthamel's supposed exagerration/ego trip. Never mind Ishy's apparent eagerness to let Rand kill himself since he'll serve dead anyways. RJ hammered us over the head in Book 1, saying: Dead people can come back.

Resurrection always was planned in the series, and the foreshadowing was laid very early. That much is obvious.


Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-09-24

The faction is up! I'm looking for a supporter. Just one single supporter to start the ball rolling. C'mon! You want to live forever right? You want power and glory right? Join the faction. It's soooo easy. 30 seconds of your time. In exchange for being absolutely triumphantly correct.

Think about it.


Rand Therin alThor: 2003-09-25

I did submit a theory on how Graendal killed him..pretty detailed too. Included how and why she was there and what happened using relevant info from the series up to the point he was killed, but got lost somewhere or it was rejected from submission. I will re-do it if need be. I would hate to re-write it and find that my original theory has just been posted.


Aelfinn: 2003-12-15

Okay, why don't you just SHUT UP! about how the DO can resurrect anyone he wants to. You've made your views clear on practically EVERY BLOODY FLAMING theory on the message board, and it ALWAYS TURNS INTO A FRIGGIN' DEBATE WITH THE SAME FRIGGIN THINGS BEING BLOODY BROUGHT UP!! I DON'T NEED TO FRIGGIN HEAR ANY BLOODY MORE ABOUT GODE KARI ILYENA AND THE GARS!!! DEBATE THAT IN YOUR *OWN* FRIGGING THEORY!!

*takes a deep breath* Okay, have I made my point?

The Finns aren't supposed to lose their cool.


RogueSavior: 2005-06-07


This IS his own bloody theory! And besides, it isn't like he's just bringing it up out of nowhere!


Great Lord of the Dark: 2005-06-07

I think he meant me bringing it up in the message boards, but still, I should not have overlooked that this was the last post in my theory for so long. Funny though!

We'll just have to breathe new life into again, like the DO did to Moridin prior to Asmodean's death!