he Most Popular Red Ajah
by a dragonburned fool: 2004-02-16 | Not yet rated
This Ajah is most unattractively described Ajah in the books, they are cruel, fanatical, and even less smart then the other sisters. They are hated among the other sisters in the Tower, they have a very unattractive style of life, and they fulfill a task, that could be fulfilled by any other AS between her main interests (as Cadsuane's example shows).
But it is the greatest Ajah in the Tower and it was greatest in number in the whole history of the WT. Nobody wonders if a Red sister is a bad person, they are prone to become evil, their character is a proper base to guide them into the Black Ajah, and in the neares few decades the Head of the Red Ajah is a Black. But in spite of all this excellent conditions among the known Black sisters the Reds are not more then any other Ajah (maybe the Yellows are less), and most of the Ajahs gave even more Blacks then the Reds. So there are less Black sisters from the Reds then is to be expected. So it's the most popular among AS Ajah, and the most resistent against darkfriends according to the statistics. Here an attempt to explain that.
There are lot of different reasons for an Ajah to be greater then other Ajah, but the most significant reason mentioned in the books is the number of Accepted wanting to dedicate themselves to that particular Ajah. Accepted are guided and prepared for the Ajah by the full sisters, but for this to happen the Accepted must have the attitude for the Ajah, else the sisters would not choose her. And guided or not, the Accepted have to think, she is choosing her Ajah herself, and for thinking so, she must have the proper attitude and the proper motives. I.e. she must be able to prefer the Reds. Why so many girls would want to join the Reds with their required ascetics, their too unconvenient conspiracy and restrictments, and the most unhappy life they offer to their recruits in relation to any other Ajah?
What makes an Ajah needed is not a function, for all AS are supposed to fulfil the tasks of every Ajah, and every particular Ajah could vanish without it's function to be losed for the Tower, for there are enough sisters in other Ajahs doing the same and skilled for it. What makes an Ajah unique is not specialization but dedication. One AS group can fulfill lot of different tasks in the same time, but one AS group couldn't have more then one primary dedication. One cannot serve to more then one masters. That's the reason that multiple Ajahs are needed - the purpose of the Tower is complex enough to need more then one type of dedication. Different dedication cause also different art of thinking. And we see that AS theirselves distinguish Ajahs primary by the art of thinking and art of reacting. Even Egwene, who was never been in any Ajah is regarded by AS as Green, because she behaves like a Green. But no sisters (except the Green maybe) choose the way they would thinking, it comes with the practice and without any choice by the AS herself. The dedication is what an woman chooses, when she seriously chooses an Ajah.
Reds are dedicated to prevent crazy male channelers with the destructive effects of such a phaenomenon. If an AS becomes information about such a man, she will do something, but a dedication means ordering all the aspects of life according to this task. What motives could exist for choosing willingly such a life, that so many women choose?
Because the Red Ajah gives to the girls the best opportunity to SERVE (AS are litterary "sevants of all" after all) and to feel they are serving, the best way to begin a life of dedication. Why a woman like Pevara chose exactly the Reds after darkfriends killed her family and she decided to fight the shadow all her life? Why she didn't chose the "battle Ajah" to which her personal attitude was so close? But no, for to fight against the Shadow she chose the Red, not the Green. She chose the Red, whose wellknown rules of behavior were so far from what Pevara is psychologically. The best answer is, that the Red Ajah has the reputation of the logical choice for one wanting to dedicate herself to fight against the Shadow.
Unlike the Green Ajah, the Reds are supposed to fight the Shadow not when the Last Battle comes (may in not come soon), but now and in particular. I cannot believe Pevara is the only case of such choice. Pevara's friends explain her choosing the Red with her dedication to fighting for Light and they use that explanation as completely understandable. The Red and Green Ajahs are the greatest because they incorporate in the best way the major tasks of WT's existance, i.e. the ideals that can make girls be enthusiasted to come in the Tower, and after them to choose an Ajah according to their enthusiasm. The Green dedication is to be ready for great tasks in unknown future, the Red dedication is to serve now.
Faolain's example illustrates another motives to choose the Red. Faolain is a women wanting to dedicate herself to serving the right side. That's because she gives up the Reds and chooses the Blue after Elaida's coup d'Etat. Faolain is sensible against rightfullness, not about political adequacy (as a proper candidate for the Blue would be). Faolain is so dedicated Blue now because she is dissapointed in the Reds. It's easy with an Accepted, while it's not so with full Red sisters, who are already too deep in their "service" to can act according to the conscience, but conscience is what guides some Accepted like Faolain to the Red Ajah. Faolain is many times described as a very typical candidate for the Red, so it can be assumed as a common case, and her psychological profile is very similar to that of the most Reds described in the books.
So, if one looks more carefully, it could be seen, that the greatest number of truly, faithfully and rightfully dedicated fighters against the Shadow among the Aes Sedai, are to be expected to be found in the Red Ajah.
That makes the situation with the Red Ajah very similar to the situation with the Whitecloaks: there are darkfriends there, and no reader wonders they are there, because the both organization are prone to breed cruel fanatical persons. But they are also organizations flooded with honest Light fanatics ready to sacrifice everything for fighting against the Shadow, and if possible, to fight now. IMO there are no more reasons to state that the Red Ajah is a DF-organization, then to state that about the whitecloaks.
The most reasons to dislike the Red Ajah are very similar to the reasons people dislike govermental secret services in general. Not that the Reds have the function of a secret service, but they share some principle in motivation and what they think about their own operations and the public opinion to them. The Red kind of dedication is very similar to the dedication supposed to ones who want to become agents of secret services. And the Reds react like the secret services against the public opinion against their actions and plans. It's normal for secret services (especially for effective ones) to be prone to power misuse, just because the combination of secrecy, extraordinary powers and the cruel situation they have to deal with. The same is the situation about the Red Ajah. These disadvantage are very real and serious. But when disliking (with right) that disadvantages, it's to be regarded that the reasons to found and support (or join) organizations like the Red Ajah are also similar to reasons to found, support (or join) secret services - some of that reasons are reasonable, and some even good.
I personally dislike this Ajah, the Red. They are not good. But they are the natural type of not good AS. Actually they are the most radical fighters for the Light. That's their force and their greatest error.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2004-02-28
Cadsuane is the smartest of the Red. She seems compitent in her job, and she doesn't seem to fear male channelers in the way that most Aes Sedai do, even Reds. She is able to separate the taint from the man, and apparently she has studied them thoroughly. But, I believe the Reds are responsible for pushing the anti-male channeler feeling into the world, and anti-male feeling in general. Their leadership has been lacking, and while they serve a "secret" function within the Tower, their secrecy and outright fear of male channelers has led to a silence among the Tower, and in my opinion, while there may be less Black Ajah among them, I think it is the attitude of the Red Ajah, people like Elaida, that created an atmosphere where the Black Ajah can flourish.
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WinespringBrother: 2004-02-28
I'm sure you will get 20 replies on this issue, but anyway, Cadsuane is of the Green Ajah.
(Tamyrlin's response: ~holy crap...sorry, for some reason I always equate Cadsuane with the Red, but I guess that makes sense, she is too smart to be a Red.~)
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Tamyrlin: 2004-02-28
After WSB corrected my mistake, I thought posting this quote was worthwhile, because it does bring into question the Red's "expertise" in an area they are supposed to be experts in.
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 18 - As the Plow Breaks the Earth
"Again Merana began to speak, and again Cadsuane silenced her, this time by a sharp gesture without looking away from him. "To see you," she said calmly. "I am Green Ajah, not Red, but I have worn the shawl longer than any other sister living, and I have faced more men who could channel than any four Reds, maybe than any ten. Not that I hunted them, you understand, but I seem to have a nose." Calmly, a woman saying she had been to market once or twice in her life. "Some fought to the bitter end, kicking and screaming even after they were shielded and bound. Some wept and begged, offering gold, anything, their very souls, not to be taken to Tar Valon. Still others wept from relief, meek as lambs, thankful finally to be done with it. Light's truth, they all weep, at the end. There is nothing left for them but tears at the end."
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dragonsceptor: 2004-02-29
***This is a little off subject***
Tam, that quote makes me feel sorry for Rand. Cads is supposed to teach Rand and the ashaman to laugh and CRY.
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charliec: 2004-02-29
I like your thinking. It goes with the basic character of the Aes Sedai as well- they always assume they know more and better than they really do just because they are Aes Sedai, and things are constantly surfacing in the books which show otherwise.
The Aes Sedai are on the whole genuine, benign, servants of the light, but just as frequently bigoted and self-assured. The misguided red ajah suits them down to the ground!
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Unicorn: 2004-02-29
Cool thinking,
I would like to add a little bit. I think you are right that many of the accepted wants to fight the shadow and sees tha Red as a better way because the (mistakenly) think that there is less waiting. To many i'm sure the hunting of men who can channel is just that - the Dragon was as far as I recall viewed more or less as a compannion for the forsaken in the two rivers before winternight. the DRAGONS fang is the sign of a Darkfriend. And no matter what the girls have learned while being Novices and Accepted they will most likely still have lived the first 12-16 years of their lives equating Darkfriends with men who can channel.
But there is one more thing. Aes Sedai are feared and mistrusted just about anywhere significantly south of the blight. Now if you had spent 10-15 years(whatever the normal span from arriving to swearing is for a wannabe AS), for that period you have exerted yourself more or less beyond your limits everyday. What would you choose, the brown's more or less seclusive life, five other Ajahs who go around hiding their true identity, skulking around making names like Alys for them selves, or would you step up to the plate and be recognized as Aes Sedai, a nessecary part of society, the only Ajah that gives you that, is the Red. I think even whitecloaks see the need for AS intervention when it comes to bringing in a false dragon.
I don't see Reds hiding that they are AS they could very well strut around like whitecloaks.
I think you are espicially right about this type of organisation being prone to misuse of power. I think the white tower in general is aware of this, it is the reason for the three oaths,as I see it. But the Reds being fanatical as they are, prone to be can easily convince themselves that what they do is for the good, and the goal supercede the means.
Good thinking, the Reds are not Evil they just haven't figured out that is means to be good.
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enigma: 2004-02-29
I like the idea that the Red's are those women with a vocation. I think that RJ said that a lot of girls go to the Tower thinking the main function of the Aes Sedai are to fight against either man who can channell or the Shadow. Hence the Red and Green Ajah's are the largest. Early in the series the Reds were the "villians" at least among the ranks of the good guys. Most of this was based in the pov of Moiraine, a Blue sister and Rand a man who could channell. The reds have been doing a horrible job with little thanks for a long time. Part of their problems I would suggest comes from the fact that most of them can't distinguish the men from the taint. If they started to think like that they might not be able to do what had to be done. Cadsuane is great because she can but she seems to be an exceptional person.
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nick: 2004-03-01
One of the things that can be said for all AS is that they are arrogant and the Red seem to be more arrogant than most although perhaps I got this impression from reading so many of Elaidas POVs. However I wouldn't say they are hated by the other sisters.There is a passage in one of the books which says that reds are actively discouraged (or forbidden I forget which) from having friends outside their own Ajah and I think that perhaps this is why other sisters dislike them.Also being under the management of a black sister won't have helped their image a great deal.Perhaps when we find out more about "the vileness after the Aiel war" it will become clearer why the other Ajahs dislike them.
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Khaos: 2004-03-01
I think you are aiming in the right general direction with this one. And you have perhaps inadvertantly offered a good suggestion as to why the Red Ajah isn't as rife with BA as one would expect.
Still I don't think we have really seen the truth of life in the red. We don't really have that many examples of Red sisters and those we do have barring Pevara seem to be extreme examples.
Basically the Red Ajah is both hampered and strengthened by its allure to two kinds of people. The first as you mentioned are those who perceive male channellers as darkfriends who need to be hunted down. These women may verge on fanaticism, its good for the Red's numbers and it adds to the ranks of those dedicated to the cause but fanatics rarely make good leaders. The second is women who hate men will naturally gravitate towards the Red. Neither of these character archtypes will ever be effective at dealing with the world.
These extremes are the core of whats wrong with the Red Ajah, and why despite being the most powerful Ajah they make the worst Amyrlin's. This generally leads to a deep bitterness within the Ajah which is probably why they have turned so inward and exclusive.
On a slightly different point I think people do have a slightly skewed view of the Red. The Red Ajah's fervor in hunting down male channeller's is more political than practical. Although red sisters are certainly almost always involved they are also usually accompanied by sisters of other Ajah's (generally a couple of greens + warders willbe part of the mix). In fact there is no evidence to even suggest that Red's automatically get to be in charge. I don't know anybody else interpreted this way but once Elaida became Amyrlin Seat she seemed to make a point of putting Red sisters in charge of expeditions dealing with male channeller's as if this may not have been the case before.
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: 2004-03-01
Thanks for all the replies.
As Enigma said, the problem of the Reds is not distinguishing between the men and the taint. It's the main visible result of that, what I wanted to state about the Reds: they are the ones, who want to fight the Shadow but keep to see the Evil in abstract way and apply their abstractions to the real life. The whitecloaks do the same thing. It's normal for people wanting to fight the evil to do that - it's not wise, it's not humanistic (great disadvantages about Reds), but it's faithful (a really good thing about them. That builds the issue about the estimation if their role. The Reds are not good and it's evident they are not good. But they seem to be an inevitable result of the wish of people of fighting for good, and there are many really faithful to the Light women in this Ajah, who could be very usefull in hard times, if the fight against the Shadow becomes open, I mean the sort of open fight, that requires self-sacrifice and radical decisiveness. But even so, a victory with significant help of the Red Ajah wouldn't be very good victory.
So, there comes one of the main things Jordan books are about: the role of rasdical solutions. All the main characters want to defend the good against the evil, and must (but really must) make difficult decisions and really cannot do it without radical solutions. And most of them (Rand especially) become more and more "Red" with the time. And that becomes a problem. Organizations as the Red Ajah manifest that problem in visible examples.
Nevertheless I have to disagree with some of Tamyrlin's comments, for they make the real problems not to be seen clearly.
The Reds are not to be blamed for the general hatred against male channelers in WoTWorld. The Reds are rather consequence then cause for that hatred. We see a general mistrust against any channelers in the time of the Breaking of the world, and the situation was the same for all the time after that. Everybody know about the horror of the breaking, and channelers aer who are blamed for. I think that the Reds even haven't the required skills to maintain such anthipaty: the Reds are the poorest manipulators in the White Tower. The Reds are exception among the Ajahs about the Daes Daimar instincts, it's common about them not to hide their words, opinions, positions, and it's common for them not to have the sly influence, AS are known for. Whatever a blunders made Bonwin, the fact that between Bonwin and Elaida the greatest Ajah had no a single Amyrlin (and Elaida needed the support of the White and the Black Ajahs for to become the stole) is a sufficient evidence that Dthe Great Game is not in their venes. The Reds are the only Ajah, that mainatins sincerity in it's members. An important thing to remember. They are also the Ajah with the greatest influence in Borderlands, and that's also an important thing.
They are not the best experts (Cadsuane is better of them because of possessing her unique ter'angreal though), but no Ajah is what it is because of expert knowledge. Any Ajah-specific expert-ism could exist without that Ajah qite well, and it's normal for an Ajah to have not the best experts in it's rows. So some Blues could make the job of the Greys better then greys, and the Blue Ajah is better prepared to the last battle then the Battle Ajah, and Red Ajah IMO is more usable then the Green in the normal battle against the Shadow in teh Borderlands; some non-bluer Sisters are better then the Blues in politics, etc. That made the respective Ajahs not useless. For they maintain the dedication alive. Whiotout an Ajah experts could exist, but the will to become such experts would decrease.
So the role of the Red Ajah. It is the role of the radical wing of the organization. It makes serious problems, it causes a tons of issues and stupid conservatism. But it is also responsible for the real dedication to fight the Evil to stay alive. Without the Red Ajah IMO the Tower would grow actually not more interested in the Last Battle then any nation. All other Ajahs are too practical (even the White and the Brown, for even pure knowledge is not so idealistic as the Red dedication to the Light). The Reds made a lot for the Tower thinking about itself as having duty in fighting the Shadow. It was very very high a prize, to have that duty in complect with the Red Ajah as we hyave it. But having that duty was really very important.
The REds are great headache and would be headache forever, but they couldn't be just scorned from the Pattern, they are even needed in the whole balance. Maybe not in so dumb form as now, but...
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a dragonburned fool: 2004-03-01
it was by me that unnamed text above.
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charliec: 2004-03-01
Red's don't necessarily either hate men or perceive male channelers as darkfriends of course...
Until Rand cleansed the source hunting down male channelers could have been a cause as powerful as any that a blue might follow. Of course those who join the Red Ajah to pursue this course full time would be expected to be out of the tower hunting more often than sitting around in Tar Valon... which may explain why we are more likely to come across the extreme varieties of crazed-political-feminists in tower politics.
No offence to any crazed-political-feminists out there ;)
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Khaos: 2004-03-02
charliec I didn't mean to give the impression that i thought all reds were man haters or thought male channeller's were DF's, however a significant proportion of them do and when and opinions can be infectious. It takes a sring sense self and willpower not to be influenced by the opinions of the people around you.
drangonburned I disagree with you on a couple of things you said first I'm not so sure that the red Ajah is more sincere than the others I think its members simply lack subtlety. Which is not to say that there reputation for brusqueness has bot been used as a smokescreen by some. However the art of diplomacy is about knowing when to use the hammer and when to use the feather, the Red mentality knows only the hammer which is why Red Amyrlins make sucha mess of things, Elaida being our star example.
I'm also a little dubious as to whether the Red are the most dedicated to the war against the shadow. The green and blue Ajah's have shown themselves to be the most open to working with the BT to fight the shadow yet the Reds first reaction is an unreasoning desire to raise it to the ground, in fact RJ does go out of his way to give us the impression tat many within the Red may think that by destroying the DR they can avoid the LB altogether.
And finally more of a query why do you think that the red sisters hold so much sway in the borderlands compared to the other Ajahs.
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charliec: 2004-03-02
The reds strike me not only as the least subtle, but also the least intellectual of the ajahs. There is a high degree of sophistication behind the ideas of the blue, brown, white, grey, and yellow ajahs, while the green's thinking is at least imaginative and passionate. The reds often strike me as being rather dull and unadventurous in their thinking.
Maybe I'm an intellectual snob, but perhaps the reds absorb more of the 'average' (and below) aes sedai than other ajahs, while the more powerful and inventive minds choose more subtle causes... it would explain some of the apparent disdain that is felt for them.
15
davood: 2004-03-04
Ok,
I remember in one of the books.. a few things that may or may not be related
things Alviarin was thinking from her POV
1) no BA went with the expedition to the black tower
2) only one black sister in the red aja (galina) i think, she was reflecting on how hard it was to get a red sister to turn to the dark
16
a dragonburned fool: 2004-03-04
The Red Ajah is the worst Ajah in the Tower, but I will continue to appeal not to think out additional disadvantages about them, there is enouugh to hate them. And figuring the Reds being dumb, boring, prone to become DF etc.. will just underestimate the deep observations Jordan incorporated in this Ajah (and other analogous characters and groups in the books). One of the strongest ideas of the series are the extreme issues in real effective doing something for the sake of good, the paradoxies and dangers of becoming "mature" in that struggle, where one have to face a brutal world where radical decisiopns are inevitable if one wants any success, and where it's so easy to lose everything. I thing it's clear that this is one of the main things the books are about. And the Red Ajah is an excellent example of one of the sides of that issue. The Red Ajah with all their disadvantages is a necessary problem for everyone who wants really and effective fight evil.
The Red Ajah is the radical wing of the Tower - that's the main thing about them. It is a common statement about any radical group from outsider's view, that they are dumb, boring, etc. Of course the radical groups are full with dumb, crazy, or just evil people (but the persentage are almost equal everywhere, in the radical groups all these categories are just more ... radical in their manifestation). The problem is that very smart, subtle, dedicated to the good etc. people sometimes become radical... and become to look dumb, boring, hearthless etc. I know myself some people of that sort. It is just a consequence of a too extensive dedication and some normal selfsatisfaction.
When one not only speaks radical thinks, but lives with a radical dedication for a long period of time, that means that person is concentrated too long time in one category of things and doesn't take care for everything else. It's necessary for a long time mobilisation for a hard task in bad circumstances. That reflects in the way that person looks for those, who have normal live. That reflects also in a change in mind even for very smart persons, who begin to not understand enough the normal-life people and begin to think inadequate about them. And if such persons don't struggle with all their best against their own pride, they are very prone to become arrogant and cruel as the Reds (and others like them) are. And we see really clever, good-wishing, and truly dedicated people make absurd blunders - it's so about Paedron Nyall for example...
That thing about radicalism in general is what is really visible in all aspects of the Red idea, tht is visible also in another details in the series. It's not just a dumb choice, for almost all the main young characters are prone to that thing in the progress of their adventures. Sometimes it's very hard to be not radical and not to become a simple traitor. And the circumstances in the books give lot of that sort of "sometimes".
And we have more interesting Red characters then the only example of Pevara. Btw Pevara may be exception form the Reds in many details, but she's erally dedicateds to the Red, and I'd say, the greatest part of good things about her are part of her Red character, she's really a elite Red. And there are also Tarna Feir, Faolain, Teslyn, Tovaine in the books: all they are looking very bad at first glance, but by the time show unexpected potencial of being good characters. Even Elaida is not so bad, when one reads NS the novell.
It's normal about radical persons: one cannot esimate them when not deepening in their characters, for they are never looking good at first glance.
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: 2004-03-04
And, Khaos, about why I'm stating the Reds have the greatest influence and respect in Borderlands:
First, they normally have more residents there then anybody else. When Siuan restores her spy network, she covered all the Westlands except the Borderlands, for the Blues hadn't eyes and ears there enough. While the only place in the Westlands Elaida became information not through the other Ajahs, were the Borderlands, where IIRC it was said they allways had the best intelligence. It was traditionally their region.
One of the reasons for that is that Borderlands never played Daes Dai Mar and Blues and Greys had less troubles there, but the Borderlands were allways political important, so they wouldn't be neglected without more reasons. The Reds are the only Ajah that doesn't have Daes DAimar as the main characterisitque of their political behaviour, and Borderander hate and mistrust Daes Daimar, and are more tolerant to cruelty and power abuse, then to scheming. Not that Reds don't play that game, but they are at least in some degree predictable, their aims are clear, and even their brusqueness meand for the average borderlander, that they would be open, if they become hostile, and that is a great thing for earning their respect. And they are more useful then other Ajahs in Borderlands. No Ajah (including the Greens) fights in the Borders, only the Reds hunt Darkfriends there. And Borderlander have allways really great troubles with darkfriends. To summarize, the Red Ajah has more chances to earn the trust of the Borderlanders then the others.
When Liandrin misuses her position to take the control over the sister of Lord Agelmar, it's remarkable how the Lady Adelise (was that her name?) reacts to Liandrin's speech about darkriends. She sees in Liandrin's position normal for an AS care for good moral (and we know it's normal for Reds only), she takes as obvious that it's AS's job to hunt darkfriends in that manner (and that is the manner of the Reds), she takes as obvious that everybody in shienar will take Liandrin's and not Agelmar's side if Liandrin accuses him. Are that not marks of influence?
Borderlander generally share Red reaction about channeling men - not just the normal histery all over the Westlands, but cold decisive judgement against them without any emotions, as about something without honour. Even the nuance of ascetics, the Reds have in their lifestyle is close to the ascetic motives in Shienar.
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Khaos: 2004-03-05
I think charliec is probably right in that the Red Ajah sweeps up the least imaginative of the sisters to bulk up its numbers. That isn't to say that these women are stupid, I think you would be hard pressed to find any stupid Aes Sedai. Merely they question less and assume more. Elaida by all accounts is far from stupid but her erroneous assumptions lead her down the wrong path time and again.
As for the issue of the borderlands if it says in the literature that the Reds have more respect there then I'll accept it. But everything i have read seems more to indicate that the borderlands have a general reverence and respect for all Aes Sedai regardless of Ajah.
However some of your secondary evidence seems a bit suspect to me. Although its true the red don't really engage in Daes Daemar it can hardly be said that the Brown or the Yellow do either.
The incident with Liandrin and Agelmar's sister is again a situation that she is Aes Sedai not that she is RED Aes Sedai. Equally i wouldn't say the Borderlands have a problem with DF's they would have the least excepting the Aiel perhaps they just work at finding them harder.
And as for your claim that only the Red journey into the borderlands that seems to me to be just plain wrong. We meet several sisters from the borderlands who aren't red, several non-red sisters who have clearly spent time in the borderlands before (moiraine, Verin the sister who studied the Darkhounds) and we know of several borderland warders. None of this suggest that only Reds are welcome or expected.
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poofmagicsedai: 2004-03-10
This reply isn't directly related to anyone else's comments, but... I've always thought that the Red Ajah would get booted out after it was found out that the taint was gone from saidin... they are now an Ajah with no purpose. But some of the other people's comments have caused me to think further, and it's true that after the Last Battle the GREEN Ajah would also have no purpose. So (prediction time!) maybe what's going to happen is that the Red and Green Ajah's will merge with the new purpose of fighting Darkfriends (I have no idea what color they would be now... combining green and red just make icky brown... maybe the orange Ajah... there's no orange right now) Anyways, all the other Ajah's have a future, but post- Last Battle, the overt purpose of their Ajah's are obsolete, but their true purpose... to fight Darkfriends, can live on.
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Darren: 2004-03-15
I think you guys are missing the point about the Red Ajah... I will admit to not having the foggiest what dbf was talking about in the primary post (I tried to make sense of it... I gave up) but as to the role of the Red Ajah, don't you all find it strange that they are the ONLY Ajah that can only have existed in their present incarnation AFTER the breaking?
When I think about what they must have been before, considering their extreme reaction to male channelers, I think it likely that they were the Ajah that (male and female) dealt with collaboration between Saidar and Saidin, and that it was likely Red sisters that helped LTT and the 100 with his plan to seal the bore.
Out of self-reproach, I see them merging into the one Ajah that is MOST against collaboration.
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Mairashda: 2004-03-16
uh, darren... the red as the ajah responsible for male and female channelers working together really is an interesting idea, and this may very well be where they're going.
BUT the ajah before the breaking were something entirely different from the Ajah of the third age. in the age of legends the ajah were considered "informal and TEMPORARY groups of people gathered together for a common purpose or goal, constantly shrinking, growing, dividing, combining, melting away only to be reborn in a new guise..." (BWB), very much unlike the unchanging, "eternal" Ajah of the White Tower. in addition to this there is also the fact that apart from the name of Aes Sedai there probably is no continuity from the Servants of the age of legends to the White Tower: No founder of the white tower was Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends. The red and all the other Ajah are children of the breaking, the red the most of them- a fact that best explains their violent reaction to male channelers.
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Darren: 2004-03-17
I'll say this one last time.
I do not now and I have never considered the BWB a part of the wheel of time series (duh) nor a reliable source for commentary on the text.
1) Look at the authors.... Robert Jordan & TERESA PATTERSON!!!! Who is she? Not RJ, that's who, and so not writing the main series.
2) you honestly think RJ just opened up the world to her and told her everything, this is the same guy who claims to have taken steps that in the event of his death, the direction of the series remain unknown to his readers.
3) Welcome to postmodernism. Once even RJ starts to comment on the text, he is performing the READER function, and is thus not entirely reliable.
I have only ever quoted the main texts (WoT... 1~10 to date) don't ever contradict me with that stupid white book again.
Note from Tamyrlin: Chill out. The White Book was sanctioned by Jordan. It is as much a fact as something found in the books; that is to say, debatable, negotiable, interpretable. So, I agree with you, the White Book isn't the source for 100% truth, but facts about the Wheel of Time can be found there as elsewhere. Callandor, a big point the BWB frequently makes is, it was written by a fictional historian. In other words, Jordan, as Darren suggests, sanctioned what was written there...as if it was written by a person with a relative understanding of Wot.
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charliec: 2004-03-18
ooh, now it sounds even more interesting! external encyclopedias are never as good as ones within a world...
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Darren: 2004-03-19
OK... I'll try and chill
What the Ajah were in their original incarnation is entirely irrelevant to my point. Whoever FORMED the Ajah in their current incarnations must have had very specific reasons; now the Red remains the only Ajah whose members HAD TO HAVE HAD the breaking on their minds when they decided on policy. (This is not to say that others did not, only that the breaking/ counterstroke/ taint/ was undeniably formative on them)
Who do I think these people were... man haters waiting for their chance to get at the males or women who, out of a sense of mea culpa, dedicate themselves to eradicating traces of wat they themselves helped bring about?
I'm betting on the latter, and I also think that after the LB, the Red will return to its collaborative roots...
