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anfear Carries Tel'aran'rhoid Into Waking World

by vardene: 2006-10-27 | 2.5 out of 10 (16 votes)

Recent Categories: Miscellaneous KoD Theories

A newbie to theories here, so beware.

Though there isn't direct proof for this(rj hasn't said so right out) but should that stop a theory?

So to business,

TGH chap7, Blood calls blood.

"Lanfear. In the old tongue, daughter of the night. Nowhere was her real name recorded, but that was the name she had chosen for herself, unlike most of the forsaken, who had been named by those they betrayed. Some said she had really been the most powerful of the forsaken, next to ishamael,the btrayer of hope, but she had kept her powers hidden."

What powers did lanfear had that could be hidden?

TFoH, chap 50, To caemlyn.

"Nnaevye's hand wavered a span from Moghedien. It had to be close enough. There was only her. And tel'aran'rhoid. The image formed in her head, and there it was, silvr bracelet on her outstretched wrist, silver leash linking it to the silver collar around Moghedien's neck."

Terangreal can be made in the world of dreams, even by those who know nothing about the making.

TFoH, chap 50, To caemlyn

"You are so simple" Moghedien murmured."Believe me, i am quite angry enough with you already. i do not think i will use you as a mounting block." Her smile made Nanaevye's skin crawl."i think i wil turn you into a horse. it is quite possible, here. A horse, a mouse, a frog..' she paused, listening"..a cricket. and everytime you come into tel'aran'rhoid you'll be a horse, until i change it or till some other with the knowledge does so."

TSR, chap 9,

"You are lews therin telamon. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height but i would know who is behind those eyes even if i'd found you in the cradle" She laughed sudddenly "how much easier everything would be if i had found you then. If i had been free to..." Laughter faded into an angry stare"Do you wish to see my true appperance? you cant remember that either, can you"

TEotW, Decisions and and apparitions

"As he levered himself up, pain stabbed his hand. Making his way to the table, he managed to get the candle lit after three tries, then spread his hand open in the light. Driven into his palm was a thick splinter of dark wood, smooth and polished on one side. He stared at it, not breathing, abruptly he was panting,pulling at the splinter, fumbling with haste.

"What's the matter?"

"Nothing"

Finally he had it, and a sharp yank pulled it free. With a grunt of disgust, he dropped it, but the grunt froze in his throat. As soon as the splinter left his fingers, it vanished."

This means items and thing created in T'A'R can be brought into the waking world.

Lanfear must have created a terangreal in T'A'R that enables her to retain the properties of T'A'R in the waking world among her stars and crecents, which are likely terangreal themselves. This is a little weak, but i've noticed she always has the stars and crescents whenever she's about to enter a confrontation.

However what is most telling is that the powers she would gain in the waking world would be quite an advantage. Moreover, lanfear's beauty is rather suspicious. If she was really as beautiful as she pretends, why would LTT forget? or anyone else for that matter. Even in the AOL, it would be quite remarkable. Can you imagine a miss world who was, say a PM of a world power and people wouldn't remember first for that? maybe only for that in fact.

More likely she changed her appearance through a means that other channelers cannot detect and which she can actuallly make as permanent as she wants. T'A'R can give her this and would definitely fit with her ambitions.

The terangreal to maintain the effect of T'A'R is only a step from here. But "it would be like her"

Rather simple conclusions really but i'd like to know what you guys think though i'm pretty much convinced, lacking an outright statement from RJ.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2007-02-24

Hey Vardene, thanks for taking the time put together some of the basis with quotes from the books, as to why you came to your conclusion. If I understand correctly, you theory is that the ability Lanfear has to change her appearance, you believe to be through a ter'angreal that she created in TAR and that she has brought with her back into the Real World. It seems that your explanation based on what we know of TAR, seems to be a bit too elaborate. We know that Lanfear could change her appearance with the OP. We know she changed her appearance in the Aiel Waste, a very dramatic change, although I thought we knew (maybe just believed) this was through the use of the OP. But on to your second thought, it being an ability that comes from a ter'angreal. I like this idea, and it seems plausible that a ter'angreal could have been created to do such a thing. However, as to your main point, I see no reason to believe such a ter'angreal must have been created in TAR. In TAR, thought can make reality, therefore any capability of any ter'angreal, can be had in TAR, even when those ter'angreal were made in teh Real World. It is an interesting idea; I'd be more inclined to believe in the idea that such a ter'angreal exists, but not that it was created in TAR.

2

vardene: 2007-02-24

Tam, thanks for posting this, though i definitely didn't finish it properly. Maintaining the powers of T'A'R in the waking world is what i'm really after. She would be able to do thing like say, turn a man into a horse without touching the OP. Even if shielded, she'll still be far from helpless. But mostly though, i thought it up to explain her 'hidden' powers.

3

JakOShadows: 2007-02-24

it is an interesting theory. I like the idea, except for the fact that when Rand removes the splinter it disappears. And so it brings into question whether the she could bring a terangreal into reality. But maybe she could create a ter'angreal and change her looks or whatever in t'a'r, and the effects would still be seen after she left. I just don't think there is enough evidence to support it. But it is a good outside the box kind of theory. it's a shame those kind of theories are hard to prove with evidence from the book.

4

fish06: 2007-02-25

Also when the splinter dissapears we dont know if it dissapears because Rand removed it and let go of it, or if it would have dissapeared with time anyway. But I like the theory and I think that it could be possible.

5

Terez1: 2007-02-25

”Lanfear must have created a terangreal in T'A'R that enables her to retain the properties of T'A'R in the waking world among her stars and crecents, which are likely terangreal themselves. This is a little weak, but i've noticed she always has the stars and crescents whenever she's about to enter a confrontation.”

You’re definitely going too far when you say must. It’s possible that there is a ter’angreal that can do something like this, but it need not necessarily have been created in Tel’aran’rhiod. Also, we know of ways to change your appearance without a ter’angreal - inverted Mirror of Mists - so it’s not even necessary for her to have a ter’angreal. I’m not saying that it’s not possible that her appearance isn’t changed by a ter’angreal, just that it is by no means the only logical explanation.

”However what is most telling is that the powers she would gain in the waking world would be quite an advantage.”

Absolutely, they would be. Then why isn’t she using them? Everything she has done can be explained by the Power weaves that we know of. The only truly compelling evidence, in my opinion, that she has been artificially enhanced is that she at least thinks she knows for certain that it is impossible for a woman to be stronger in the Power than she - but even that can be explained by RJ’s point scale of power levels, which is something those in the Age of Legends would likely be intimately familiar with.

”Moreover, lanfear's beauty is rather suspicious. If she was really as beautiful as she pretends, why would LTT forget?”

Who says he forgot?

”or anyone else for that matter. Even in the AOL, it would be quite remarkable. Can you imagine a miss world who was, say a PM of a world power and people wouldn't remember first for that? maybe only for that in fact.”

The Forsaken were sealed with the Dark One, and that is just about the only thing that is remembered about any of them. So, no, I don’t think it’s very remarkable that her beauty isn’t legendary.

”More likely she changed her appearance through a means that other channelers cannot detect and which she can actuallly make as permanent as she wants. T'A'R can give her this and would definitely fit with her ambitions.”

Inverted weaves can also give this, which is how Moghedien remained hidden in Salidar. Yes, even in her sleep. You don’t have to maintain such weaves; they can be knotted. What need for a ter’angreal?

”The terangreal to maintain the effect of T'A'R is only a step from here. But ‘it would be like her’”

I guess I should call Occam’s Razor on this one - we just have much simpler explanations for how she could do what she does. To believe that she has the abilities of Tel’aran’rhiod in the real world is just beyond reason - there is so much more beyond changing your appearance that you can do with that sort of power, and we haven’t seen any evidence of it at all.

”Rather simple conclusions really but i'd like to know what you guys think though i'm pretty much convinced, lacking an outright statement from RJ.”

I’ll give you this - if her crescents and moons are indeed a ter’angreal, it would more likely be something in the nature of causing awe over her beauty in whoever looks at her - sort of like a form of Compulsion. I’ve suspected she did something like this before, just because of the way people react to her upon first sight. There’s no reason to suspect that it would actually change her appearance, however - just an effect on the reaction people have when they look at her.

”Maintaining the powers of T'A'R in the waking world is what i'm really after. She would be able to do thing like say, turn a man into a horse without touching the OP. Even if shielded, she'll still be far from helpless. But mostly though, i thought it up to explain her 'hidden' powers.”

See, here we go again with the stuff that’s just not supported. What has she really done that can’t be explained by the Power? If she had these kinds of powers, she would be beyond extraordinary. She would have had no problem whatsoever defeating Moiraine - that’s for sure. I can think of all sorts of things that she could have done - but she didn’t. Therefore, there is no reason to assume she has these “hidden” powers.

6

lordoftwilight: 2007-02-26

One question with this Theory my understanding is that an object that is touching you will be brought with you back and forth from TAR but I don't remember these Stars and Crecents.

Also what about when Lanfear is brought back would'nt she try to find her ter'angreal. But this theory makes sense since there were so Many AIel WO in the Waste so the odds of one of them not figuring out that Lanfear was there are probably quite bad.

7

Tree Brother: 2007-02-26

Things that happen in TAR sometimes come back with you when you wake, sometimes not. The most often example is someone dying in TAR, and being dead in the real word -- with no mark on them. (A case where only death comes back, not the method of dying)

Some things do. For example, the splinter Rand wakes with, and the burnt off hair that the Aes Sedai wakes up with. (Carlinya). Also, both Slayer and Moghedien wake with wounds (assuming Slayer didn't do his in the flesh trick that time) -- and Moghedien also wakes under the influence of a drug administered while in the dream.

So, why do you sometimes leave the dream with your body altered? (Wounded, burned, drugged). If you can somehow get the hang of this, maybe you could do this at will.

Egwene made her bruises disappear when she entered in the flesh, and they came back when she left. But that was in the flesh. She may do this in the dream as well (frequent beatings), but it doesn't come back with her if she does.

Maybe Lanfear has a knack for altering her appearance, and waking with the change. Although that would not explain why Cyndane doesn't change change herself back to Lanfear in TAR. Unless she is not allowed to...

8

Ragner: 2007-02-27

This theory makes sense and while there is no evidence against it...it seems way too easy. If she really could make a tar'angreal... does it apply to angreal and san'greal too? Remember when Lanfear was looking for the Chodan Kal? Why didn't she just makes a super-san'greal that was much better? It seems like a way too easy solution.

9

Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-02

vardene:
TGH chap7, Blood calls blood.

"Lanfear. In the old tongue, daughter of the night. Nowhere was her real name recorded, but that was the name she had chosen for herself, unlike most of the forsaken, who had been named by those they betrayed. Some said she had really been the most powerful of the forsaken, next to ishamael,the btrayer of hope, but she had kept her powers hidden."

What powers did lanfear had that could be hidden?


First of all, I agree with the sentiments of many who have replied: everything that we have seen Lanfear do can be explained by things we already know, like Mirror of Mists. With regard to her hidden powers, the statement may be referring to the fact that Lanfear was never a field general commanding the forces of the Shadow like many of the other Forsaken; rather, she worked in a more hidden way, affecting people through their dreams, as indicated in the BWB:

-----
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Lanfear

While never a field commander, Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow. Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Aside from these useful pursuits, Lanfear served as a governor of conquered territory at least once. She was involved in many atrocities, perhaps more than most of the Forsaken, but the people she governed had more than the usual horrors of the Shadow to face; they feared sleep itself. Suicide rates were extremely high in her territory, even considering the fact that suicide was endemic in all the conquered territories.
-----

In addition, we know that Lanfear was the most powerful female Forsaken and of course used Tel'aran'rhiod extensively:

-----
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Lanfear

The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael, was Lanfear, "Daughter of the Night" - in the Old Tongue. She alone of the Forsaken chose her own name, claiming the territory of the World of Dreams - Tel'aran'rhiod - and other people's dreams as her domain. Tall and lithe with pale skin and flowing midnight tresses, she was usually seen wearing gowns of purest white, often accented with a woven silver belt and jewelry in moon and star motifs. Unquestionably the most beautiful and seductive of the Chosen, Lanfear was probably one of the most beautiful women of her age or any other.
-----

However, Lanfear was not the most skilled of the Forsaken in Tel'aran'rhiod -- Moghedien was. So, if anyone was going to have special skills related to Tel'aran'rhiod, it would be more likely to be Moghedien rather than Lanfear:

-----
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Moghedien

Her greatest asset was her ability within the World of Dreams, Tel'aran'rhiod. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear's, despite the latter's claim of sovereignty. She never dared confront or challenge Lanfear in the world of flesh, for there she could not hope to match Lanfear's superior strength.
-----

However, I don't believe that either Lanfear or Moghedien "brought TAR into the waking world" as the theory suggests.

10

vardene: 2007-03-08

marie curie7,

i dont why lanfear would share anything she could do that would give her an advantage with moggy. And for all of moghedien's knowhow, was she not bested in T'A'R by an "untutored savage?".

Lanfear knows enoygh of the world of dreams to do this and it fits in her nature very well. Imagine being able to duplicate angreal in the waking world or alter your features without touching the OP. or alter things in your immediate vicinity. Whatever she uses it for, it would be an extra edge against the other forsaken..

11

Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-09

vardene:
"i dont why lanfear would share anything she could do that would give her an advantage with moggy."

I never stated that Lanfear would share her knowledge with Moghedien -- where did you get that? I simply said that if anyone was likely to have super-duper powers related to Tel'aran'rhiod, it would be more likely to be Moghedien than Lanfear. Both are skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod, but as the BWB points out, Moghedien's skills are superior to Lanfear's.

"And for all of moghedien's knowhow, was she not bested in T'A'R by an "untutored savage?""

And Lanfear was bested by another one of those "untutored savages." So, what's your point? If Lanfear had any super-duper powers from Tel'aran'rhiod, why didn't she use them on the docks in Cairhien? If Lanfear had her own angreal made in Tel'aran'rhiod and brought out, for example, then why did she reach for the angreal that Moiraine left on the wagon?

"Lanfear knows enoygh of the world of dreams to do this and it fits in her nature very well. Imagine being able to duplicate angreal in the waking world or alter your features without touching the OP. or alter things in your immediate vicinity. Whatever she uses it for, it would be an extra edge against the other forsaken."

Lanfear wanted to kill Rand on the docks in Cairhien. She was in a jealous rage. If Lanfear had enhanced powers from Tel'aran'rhiod, then why didn't we see them manifest at that point?

Can you provide one example of something that Lanfear has done that can't be explained by her use of the One Power? I doubt that you can, so we have to go with the simpler explanation: that Lanfear has no powers from bringing Tel'aran'rhiod into the waking world, but rather all her actions can be explained by ordinary means or through her use of the One Power.

12

Myrelle Sedai: 2007-03-11

*TSR, chap 9,

"You are lews therin telamon. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height but i would know who is behind those eyes even if i'd found you in the cradle" She laughed sudddenly "how much easier everything would be if i had found you then. If i had been free to..." Laughter faded into an angry stare"Do you wish to see my true appperance? you cant remember that either, can you"*

what Lanfear means here is that she can recognize Lews Therin's soul because he is a Hero of the Horn. Like Moghedien with Birgitte.

13

Ragner: 2007-03-13

myrelle:

**"what Lanfear means here is that she can recognize Lews Therin's soul because he is a Hero of the Horn. Like Moghedien with Birgitte."**

Where do you get that from?

I took it as Lanfear just knows/loves LTT so much that se can always recognize him.

14

Ozymandias: 2007-03-13

As to your ideas about beauty... Tam will know this, or maybe someone else with a good memory who's been around a few years, but I feel a while back there was a theory dealing with the fact that Lanfear visited the Eelfinn and asked to be the greatest in OP and the most beautiful... or something like that. Am I totally dreaming?

15

terez: 2007-03-14

Ozy:

" As to your ideas about beauty... Tam will know this, or maybe someone else with a good memory who's been around a few years, but I feel a while back there was a theory dealing with the fact that Lanfear visited the Eelfinn and asked to be the greatest in OP and the most beautiful... or something like that. Am I totally dreaming?"

You're probably thinking of this one. ;)

16

vardene: 2007-03-15

vardene:

"i dont why lanfear would share anything she could do that would give her an advantage with moggy."

marie,

**I never stated that Lanfear would share her knowledge with Moghedien -- where did you get that? I simply said that if anyone was likely to have super-duper powers related to Tel'aran'rhiod, it would be more likely to be Moghedien than Lanfear.**

superior knowledge doesnt count if it is something not widely known. people know different things and apply their knowledge differently. Nynaeve defeated moggy with vastly inferior knowledge because she applied it better.(twice!). It is definitely possible to make terangreal and since it is possible to bring objects from t'a'r into the waking world, then anyone could have done it and kept the details to him herself.

**If Lanfear had any super-duper powers from Tel'aran'rhiod, why didn't she use them on the docks in Cairhien? If Lanfear had her own angreal made in Tel'aran'rhiod and brought out, for example, then why did she reach for the angreal that Moiraine left on the wagon?**

Same reason rand drew one the angreal while drawing from the greatest angreal ever made-for extra height. The fact that she was able to hold rand so long despite his strength and angreal indicates she must have had something too, even prior to getting the bracelet moiraine left.

**Lanfear wanted to kill Rand on the docks in Cairhien. She was in a jealous rage. If Lanfear had enhanced powers from Tel'aran'rhiod, then why didn't we see them manifest at that point?**

How do we know it didnt? inverted weaves cant be seen true, but that doesn't mean everything she did was done with weaves. cadsusne had a terangreal that made her weaves more effective against the shadow, but no one remarked on it when she burned the fog so easily in ACoS. People tend to attribute that sort of thing to 'superior' knowledge. lanfear encountered egwene in the tower once with her stars and crescents and when she escaped, egwene did not catch a hint of saidar being channeled. It could be masking and it could be something else though.

Verin knew graendal was channeling at shadar logoth despite the masking, but egwene didn't get anything when lanfear escaped her in the tower. More telling though is how she got away. If she had made a gateway, egwene would have seen the light or a reflection of the slash and it tends to leave an after image in the immediate time after. so why not in this instance? did she use travelling at all?

17

El Bogarto: 2007-03-15

A semi-related theory that has made the rounds before is “Lanfear altered herself waaay back in the AOL in TAR”.

We know from tFoH that a target’s physical self can be changed permanently if said target is in TAR in the flesh. (ref. Rahvin's attempts to change Rand into something else, and Rand/LTT's instinctive response).

As for her looking the was she does now, it could be part of her punishment. It would fit the name.

18

Catalyst: 2007-03-16

If that theory is proven true, there can be plenty of effects. For example, the duel between Rand and Rahvin: they enter T'A'R in the flesh, but Rahvin almost changes Rand into some animal, and without Nynaeve's help, he probably would have been changed permanently. If you can change someone permanently, this way you can heal cut off hands, legs, heads :), etc. Or create weapons, or...

We don't know everything about T'A'R, so this is only a speculation.

19

terez: 2007-03-16

Vardene, you are missing some major points here. For one thing, we do not know that you can create things in Tel’aran’rhiod and bring them into the real world. You give the example of the thorn in Rand’s hand, but as soon as he removed it from his hand, it vanished. This in no way shows that you can make something in Tel’aran’rhiod and bring it into the real world. You are grasping at straws.

Second, whatever skills you might think Lanfear has are irrelevant. Absolutely everything that she has done in the real world, including her ability to wow people with her beauty, can all be explained by the real world, and weaves of the One Power. Even if her stars and moons are a ter’angreal of some sort, there is absolutely no reason to believe that such would be made in Tel’aran’rhiod. You are grasping at straws.

You can remain “convinced” that it happened, but don’t expect any of us to be convinced based on such flimsy “evidence”.

20

Tree Brother: 2007-03-19

Just to repeat something I wrote earlier:

Carlinya was one of the Aes Sedai who was went to the tower, and got caught up in that TAR dream. When she woke from the dream, her hair was burnt off.

So, a physical change that occurred in TAR was carried over into the waking world.

Moghedien was injured in TAR, and when she woke one of the Black Ajah had to heal her.

Two instances where changes to the body in TAR were carried over.

If you can change your hair style (burn it off) why not change hair color? Cut off unseemly moles. Or even regrow a body part?

Carlinya's hair didn't reappear after a few seconds. She was seen with it placed in "curls" in the days following that episode.

Granted, Moghedien said she could change someone's shape, and have it be that way in TAR every time they entered.

But she was also able to rip a fabricated body out of TAR, which still remains. (Assuming that Heroes don't have real bodies in TAR, but rather ones created by their thoughts).

21

Terez1: 2007-03-21

Treebrother, your points are valid to a degree, but the fact remains that, for one, Lanfear has not shown any sign of the awesome powers of Tel’aran’rhiod in the waking world, which is what Vardene is suggesting. She has in fact shown many weaknesses that, if she had such powers, she should not show. For another, there is no reason to assume that, if she does indeed have a ter’angreal such as Vardene suggests, that she made it in Tel’aran’rhiod. Everything that she has done can be explained by normal abilities of the One Power.

22

Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-21

vardene:
"superior knowledge doesnt count if it is something not widely known. people know different things and apply their knowledge differently. Nynaeve defeated moggy with vastly inferior knowledge because she applied it better.(twice!)."

I have no idea how that first sentence is at all relevant to your arguments, but perhaps you can elaborate. As to the rest, yes, Nynaeve bested Moghedien even though she was less skilled in Tel'aran'rhiod. So what? My position is not that Moghedien "carries Tel'aran'rhiod into the waking world;" it is that neither Lanfear nor Moghedien bring any such special skills from Tel'aran'rhiod into the waking world. The only reason that I mentioned Moghedien at all is that she was known to have superior skills to Lanfear in Tel'aran'rhiod.

"It is definitely possible to make terangreal and since it is possible to bring objects from t'a'r into the waking world, then anyone could have done it and kept the details to him herself."

I've yet to see you provide any substantial proof that objects can be brought out of Tel'aran'rhiod and maintained without fading. The splinter in Rand's hand faded once it was removed. Also, at least as far as entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh goes (and I don't see why entry via any other means would be different), RJ has stated that you can't bring things out:

From the wotmania FAQ:

Is it possible to go to the Dreamworld in the flesh, and take something with you out through the Gateway?
No.

Furthermore, there is direct book evidence that what is created in Tel'aran'rhiod cannot be brought into the real world. For example, Moghedien tells Nynaeve that she will turn her into a horse in Tel'aran'rhiod and every time Nynaeve enters Tel'aran'rhiod, she will be a horse; however, it's clear from the discussion that the change would not be in effect in the real world:

-------
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER 34: A Silver Arrow

"You are so simple," Moghedien murmured. "Believe me, I am quite angry enough with you already. I do not think I will use you for a mounting block." Her smile made Nynaeve's skin crawl. "I think I will turn you into a horse. It is quite possible, here. A horse, a mouse, a frog. . ." She paused, listening. ". . . a cricket. And every time you come to Tel'aran'rhiod, you'll be a horse, until I change it. Or some other with the knowledge does so." She paused again, looking almost sympathetic. "No, I'd not want to give you false hope. There are only nine of us now who know that binding, and you would not want any of the others to have you any more than myself. You will be a horse every time I bring you here. You will have your own saddle and bridle. I will even braid your mane." Nynaeve's braid jerked almost out of her scalp. "You will remember who you are even then, of course. I think I will enjoy our rides, though you may not." Moghedien took a deep breath, and her dress darkened to something that glistened in the pale light; Nynaeve could not be sure, but she thought it might be the color of wet blood. "You make me approach Semirhage. It will be well to be done with you, so I can turn my full attention to matters of importance. Is the little yellow-haired chit with you in this menagerie?"
-------

In addition, Wise One-trained Egwene makes it clear that she cannot bring the Tel'aran'rhiod-created Bela out of Tel'aran'rhiod:

-------
TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER 34: Journey to Salidar

"You did run like the wind," she murmured, hugging Bela a last time. "I wish I could take you with me." A useless fancy, of course. What was made in Tel'aran'rhiod could exist only there. This was not really Bela, after all. Even so, she felt a twinge of regret as she turned her back--she would not stop imagining Bela; let her exist as long as she could--and wove her shimmering curtain of Spirit. Head high, she stepped through, ready to face whatever came with her Aiel heart.
-------

"How do we know it didnt? inverted weaves cant be seen true, but that doesn't mean everything she did was done with weaves. cadsusne had a terangreal that made her weaves more effective against the shadow, but no one remarked on it when she burned the fog so easily in ACoS. People tend to attribute that sort of thing to 'superior' knowledge. lanfear encountered egwene in the tower once with her stars and crescents and when she escaped, egwene did not catch a hint of saidar being channeled. It could be masking and it could be something else though."

What evidence do you have that Cadsuane's ter'angreal makes her weaves more effective against the Shadow? You'll have to provide some quotes on that.

Also, you keep mentioning Lanfear's stars and crescents as a possible ter'angreal. But I see no mention of it when Egwene encounters Lanfear in the Tower. Here's the opening bit of that scene; notice there's no mention of the stars and crescents:

-------
TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 25 - Questions

A woman turned to face her at the foot of the ramp, and Egwene stopped in confusion. Whoever she was, this was certainly not Else. All in silver and white silk, she sparked feelings Egwene had never had before. She was taller, more beautiful by far, and the look in her black eyes made Egwene feel small, scrawny, and none too clean. She can probably channel more of the Power than I can, too. Light, she is probably smarter than all three of us put together on top of it. It isn't fair for one woman to - abruptly she realized the way her thoughts were going. Her cheeks reddened, and she gave herself a shake. She had never felt - less - than any other woman before, and she was not about to start now.
-------

It seems to me that most of your claims about ter'angreal and special powers from Tel'aran'rhiod remain unsubstatiated. I would like to see you provide some more evidence to support your theory.

23

vardene: 2007-03-25

mc7,

From the wotmania FAQ:

Is it possible to go to the Dreamworld in the flesh, and take something with you out through the Gateway?

No.*

well, its obvious rand brought the splinter back. So perhaps it'll be better to clarify whether being there in the flesh, which is what the questioner asked, is different from what rand did. As for lanfear's skills, if an untrained farmboy like rand could bring a splinter back, what could lanfear do?

If we haven't seen lanfear do anything 'strange' so far, she'd try to keep it secret as long as possible. But while dueling with rand in TFoH, she seemed to be stronger than she should be-strong enough to hold rand and even attempting to shield him!

24

Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-25

vardene:
"well, its obvious rand brought the splinter back. So perhaps it'll be better to clarify whether being there in the flesh, which is what the questioner asked, is different from what rand did. As for lanfear's skills, if an untrained farmboy like rand could bring a splinter back, what could lanfear do?"

Yes, vardene, the splinter came back with Rand. And it has been pointed out more than once that as soon as the splinter was removed from Rand's hand, it disappeared:

-----
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 43 - Decisions and Apparitions

As he levered himself up, pain stabbed his hand. Making his way to the table, he managed to get the candle lit after three tries, then spread his hand open in the light. Driven into his palm was a thick splinter of dark wood, smooth and polished on one side. He stared at it, not breathing. Abruptly he was panting, plucking at the splinter, fumbling with haste.
"What's the matter?" Mat asked.
"Nothing."
Finally he had it, and a sharp yank pulled it free. With a grunt of disgust he dropped it, but the grunt froze in his throat. As soon as the splinter left his fingers, it vanished.
-----

This quote does not support your theory. In fact, the evidence from this quote suggests that objects cannot be created in Tel'aran'rhiod and brought out (which also fits with what RJ said about entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh and bringing objects out).

"If we haven't seen lanfear do anything 'strange' so far, she'd try to keep it secret as long as possible. But while dueling with rand in TFoH, she seemed to be stronger than she should be-strong enough to hold rand and even attempting to shield him!"

Let's look at a bit of that scene in The Fires of Heaven. Rand is inexperienced and trying to battle Lews Therin at the same time as Lanfear. And Lanfear is the strongest female Forsaken and far more experienced than Rand:

-----
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

Panic rang the Void like a gong at the first knife-sharp touch, the Power diminishing as it slid deeper between him and the Source. With Spirit and Fire and Earth he cut at the knife blade; he knew where to find it; he knew where his link was, could feel that first nick. Her attempted shield vanished, reappeared, returned as fast as he could cut it, but always with that momentary ebbing of saidin, moments when it almost failed, leaving his counterstroke barely enough to foil her attack. Handling two weaves at once should have been easy - he could handle ten or more - but not when one was a desperate defense against something he could not know was there until it was almost too late. Not when another man's thoughts kept trying to surface inside the Void, trying to tell him how to defeat her. If he listened, it might be Lews Therin Telamon who walked away, with Rand al'Thor a voice sometimes floating in his head if that.
-----

Next, Moiraine can judge another woman's strength in the Power and she thinks that with the angreal from the wagon, Lanfear ought to be able to beat Rand (unless Rand also had an angreal, which Moiraine did not know):

-----
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean. Lanfear standing on the wagon-bed, blazing bright as the sun with saidar, framed by the twisted redstone ter'angreal as she stared down at Rand, a pitiless smile on her lips. She was turning a bracelet in her hands. An angreal; unless Rand had his own angreal, she should be able to crush him with that. Either he did, or Lanfear was toying with him.
-----

So what about this scene suggests any hidden powers on the part of Lanfear? It seems to be clearly explained by the use of the angreal that Moiraine left for Lanfear to pick up.

I'm still waiting for replies regarding the unsubstantiated claims that you've made about Lanfear's stars and moons as well as about the effectivenes of Cadsuane's ter'angreal. :)

25

Birgitte: 2007-03-27

Sorry, Vardene, but I have to agree with Terez and Marie here. Your theory seems to be pure speculation.:) I don't really see how that splinter quote is a point in your favor, either, unless you're using the fact that it lasted a few seconds outside of TAR as evidence. However, even working from there, it isn't really all that helpful. Using that as an example, the hypothetical ter'angreal would dissappear within moments of her bringing them out.

I don't understand the Cadsuane thing either. I can only find references to her hair ter'angreal detecting saidin and saidar, at least one Well, and there's an interesting quote that says she might have/have had something like Mat's foxhead.

** TITLE: Knife of Dreams

CHAPTER: 7 - A Cold Medallion

"Joline must have tried to stop you, and Teslyn and Edesina as well, but whatever they did failed. I think that means you possess a ter'angreal that can disrupt flows of the Power. I've heard of such things - Cadsuane Melaidhrin supposedly had one, or so rumor said - but I've never seen the like. I would very much like to. I won't try to take it away from you, but I would appreciate seeing it."**

Maybe our resident Quotemistress could do better. I don't remember anything about a ter'angreal that makes her more effective against the Shadow. That may just be her personality there. ;)

26

vardene: 2007-03-28

mc7,

Next, Moiraine can judge another woman's strength in the Power and she thinks that with the angreal from the wagon, Lanfear ought to be able to beat Rand (unless Rand also had an angreal, which Moiraine did not know):

That's the point marie, rand did have the fat man angreal, and lanfear was still strong enough to shield him! if moiraine knew about it, she'd have wondered how lanfear could do it. where did she get the extra from?

***TEoTW chap. 43,

Finally he had it, and a sharp yank pulled it free. With a grunt of disgust he dropped it, but the grunt froze in his throat. As soon as the splinter left his fingers, it vanished.***

The splinter didnt vanish until it ceased physical contact with rand, as long as lanfear's stars and moons remain in contact with her, they should remain in existence. The fact that it didnt vanish immediately is enough proof that it can be done. Even better though, rand could not remove it easily despite effort. There's a similarity to the event in TFoH when the SAS created a dream of trollocs that became rather too permanent. The dream did not need any particular sister to keep it going and took a lot of effort to dispel.

Perhaps lanfear can summon her stars and moons at a moments thought, but she's gotthem with her always especially when preparing for conflict. what's the point going into battle dressed for a ball, unless there's some advantage to the dressing?

27

Marie Curie 7: 2007-03-29

vardene:
"That's the point marie, rand did have the fat man angreal, and lanfear was still strong enough to shield him! if moiraine knew about it, she'd have wondered how lanfear could do it. where did she get the extra from?"

Read the passage again. Lanfear did NOT shield Rand. She attempted to shield him, but Rand fought her off each time, though barely. One reason that Lanfear was able to match Rand for a time was that she was far more experienced than Rand in using the One Power. Don't you remember Berowin, a member of the Kin who was able to shield Nynaeve even though Berowin was much, much weaker in the Power than Nynaeve?:

----
TITLE: Crown of Swords, CHAPTER: 23 - Next Door to a Weaver

Appalled astonishment became fiery outrage as Nynaeve realized that Berowin held her shield. Most Aes Sedai she had met stood above Berowin; nearly all. Gathering herself, she strained to reach the Source, expecting the weaves to shatter. She would at least show these women she would not be.... The weaves ... stretched. The round Cairhienin woman smiled, and Nynaeve's face darkened. The shield stretched further, further, bulging like a ball. It would not break. That was impossible. Anyone could block her from the Source if they caught her by surprise, of course, and someone weaker could hold the shield once woven, but not this much weaker. And a shield did not bend that far without breaking. It was impossible!
-----

Berowin says that she is very skilled at shielding; it's almost a Talent for her, and Berowin could shield someone like Nynaeve even though she is much weaker. Lanfear is the strongest female Forsaken, so even if she is weaker than Rand, she came close to shielding him probably due to her experience and skill. At the point in the scene where Lanfear first begins her attempts to shield him, it seems that Rand was not using the fat little man angreal, or at least there's no mention of him using it until later, after Lanfear has climbed up onto the wagon and found the angreal that Moiraine left.

At the point that Rand draws saidin through the fat little man angreal, he COULD have defeated Lanfear:

-----
TITLE: Fires of Heaven, CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut. His hand tightened on his coat pocket, the fat little stone man with his sword hard against the heron branded into his palm. He drew on saidin as deeply as he could, till the taint floated in the emptiness with him like misting rain.

Pain, Lews Therin."
And there was pain, the world swallowed in agony. Not heart or head this time, but everywhere, every part of him, hot needles stabbing into the Void. He almost thought he could hear a quenching hiss at each thrust, and each came deeper than the last. Her attempts to shield him did not slow; they came faster, stronger. He could not believe she was so strong. Clinging to the Void, to searing, freezing saidin, he defended himself wildly. He could end it, finish her. He could call down lightning, or wrap her in the fire she herself had used to kill.

Images darted through the pain; A woman in a dark merchant's dress, toppling from her horse, the fire-red sword light in his hands; she had come to kill him, with a fistful of other Darkfriends. Mat's bleak eyes; I killed her. A golden-haired woman lying in a ruined hallway where, it seemed, the very walls had melted and flowed. Ilyena, forgive me! It was a despairing cry.

He could end it. Only, he could not. He was going to die, perhaps the world would die, but he could not make himself kill another woman. Somehow it seemed the richest joke the world had ever seen.
-----

See? With the fat man angreal against Lanfear with the angreal that Moiraine left for her, Rand knows he is strong enough to defeat Lanfear. But he can't do it because he can't bring himself kill a woman. That's one reason why Moiraine tops his list of dead women -- he blames himself for her "demise" because he couldn't finish Lanfear. So again, where is the evidence that there is anything in this scene that can't be explained by uses of the One Power that we already know? There's no need for any special powers to be associated with Lanfear.

"The splinter didnt vanish until it ceased physical contact with rand, as long as lanfear's stars and moons remain in contact with her, they should remain in existence. The fact that it didnt vanish immediately is enough proof that it can be done. Even better though, rand could not remove it easily despite effort. There's a similarity to the event in TFoH when the SAS created a dream of trollocs that became rather too permanent. The dream did not need any particular sister to keep it going and took a lot of effort to dispel."

You must never have had a splinter lodged in your hand. :) Once again, reread the scene. Rand notices the splinter in his hand and realizes where it must have come from. So he is frantic to dig it out. It's not easy to get a splinter out sometimes, especially when you want to make sure you get absolutely all of it, like Rand did. His difficulty in removing the splinter had nothing to do with any special Tel'aran'rhiod properties.

As far as the trolloc dream that the rebel Aes Sedai encounter, how does this support your theory at all? A nightmare such as the trolloc dream is a well-known property of Tel'aran'rhiod -- and for the inexperienced, it can be difficult to deal with:

-----
TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 7 - A Matter of Thought

Some thirty paces to their right, the tapestry-hung corridor suddenly widened into a stony cavern that seemed to stretch forever, lit in dim patches by the red glow of scattered fires and braziers. There were Trollocs everywhere, great manlike shapes, their all-too-human faces distorted by bestial muzzles and snouts and beaks, sporting horns or tusks or feathered crests. Those in the distance appeared more indistinct than the nearest, only half-formed, while the nearest were giants twice as tall as a man, even larger than any real Trolloc, all clad in leather and black spiked mail, howling and capering around cookfires and cauldrons, racks and strange spiked frames and metal shapes.

It really was a nightmare, though larger than any Elayne had heard of from Egwene or the Wise Ones. Once freed of the mind that created them, such things sometimes drifted through the World of Dreams and sometimes latched on to a particular spot. Aiel dreamwalkers destroyed each as a matter of course whenever they found one, but they - and Egwene - had told her the best thing to do was avoid any she saw altogether. Unfortunately, Carlinya apparently had not listened when she and Nynaeve passed that on.
-----

"Perhaps lanfear can summon her stars and moons at a moments thought, but she's gotthem with her always especially when preparing for conflict. what's the point going into battle dressed for a ball, unless there's some advantage to the dressing?"

Here you go again, making unsubstantiated claims. :) Where are the quotes that provide any evidence at all that Lanfear's stars and moons are what you say they are? Of course, it is possible that they are a ter'angreal like Cadsuane's but we've seen no evidence of that, let alone that they are something that Lanfear brought out of Tel'aran'rhiod. In fact, you have not even provided any evidence that Lanfear has the stars and moons with her "when preparing for conflict." I did a search and this is the only mention of Lanfear wearing the stars and moons in her hair that I could find:

-----
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions

"Selene," he gasped, hurrying to her. "Where did you come from? How did you get here? I thought you must still be in Cairhien, or. . . ." Looking down at her, he did not want to say he feared she might be dead, or a starving refugee. A woven silver belt glittered around her narrow waist; silver combs worked with stars and crescent moons shone in hair that fell to her shoulders like waterfalls of night. She was still the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. Elayne and Egwene were only pretty beside her. For some reason, though, she did not affect him the way she had; perhaps it was the long months since he had last seen her, in a Cairhien not yet racked by civil war.
-----

Where are all the quotes about Lanfear wearing the stars and moons when she is preparing for conflict? I wasn't able to find any. Lanfear does use a crescent moon and stars as her seal when she is masquerading as Selene, but that's the only other instance I found in the books that makes any mention of the stars and moons:

-----
TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 25 - Cairhien

"Who would send me invitations?" Rand turned them over in his hand. None of the men at the tables looked up, but he had the feeling they were watching just the same. He did not recognize the seals. None was the crescent moon and stars Selene had used. "Who would know I was here?"
-----

But using a seal on a letter has nothing to do with bringing ter'angreal out of Tel'aran'rhiod. Because of the name Lanfear chose for herself, Daughter of the Night, the stars and crescent moon are a fitting symbol for her. Her use of them is mentioned in the BWB:

-----
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: Lanfear

The most powerful of the female Forsaken, possibly the most powerful of all next to Ishamael, was Lanfear, "daughter of the night" in the Old Tongue. She alone of the Forsaken chose her own name, claiming the territory of the World of Dreams - Tel'aran'rhiod - and other people's dreams as her domain. Tall and lithe with pale skin and flowing midnight tresses, she was usually seen wearing gowns of purest white, often accented with a woven silver belt and jewelry in moon and star motifs. Unquestionably the most beautiful and seductive of the Chosen, Lanfear was probably one of the most beautiful women of her age or any other.
-----

Note that the BWB notes that Lanfear was often seen wearing jewelry with moons and stars. However, it does not refer to any one specific piece of jewelry (such as a hair ornament similar to Cadsuane's ter'angreal). And there is no evidence that what Lanfear sometimes wears is anything other than jewelry. Nor is there any evidence that she always wears it when preparing for conflicts. And there is definitely no evidence that she brought it or anything else out of Tel'aran'rhiod.

28

vardene: 2007-04-05

marie curie7,

**Berowin says that she is very skilled at shielding; it's almost a Talent for her, and Berowin could shield someone like Nynaeve even though she is much weaker. Lanfear is the strongest female Forsaken, so even if she is weaker than Rand, she came close to shielding him probably due to her experience and skill. At the point in the scene where Lanfear first begins her attempts to shield him, it seems that Rand was not using the fat little man angreal, or at least there's no mention of him using it until later, after Lanfear has climbed up onto the wagon and found the angreal that Moiraine left.**

there no evidence she's any talent in that area. More likely she used what she knew-T'A'R.

**Note that the BWB notes that Lanfear was often seen wearing jewelry with moons and stars. However, it does not refer to any one specific piece of jewelry (such as a hair ornament similar to Cadsuane's ter'angreal). And there is no evidence that what Lanfear sometimes wears is anything other than jewelry. Nor is there any evidence that she always wears it when preparing for conflicts. And there is definitely no evidence that she brought it or anything else out of Tel'aran'rhiod**

you're getting there marie, she was seen often enough with same set of jewelry should provoke the question why? what need do AS have for ornaments?

29

Tantor The Holy: 2007-04-19

just a thought, If an item can be brought from TAR for just a second, whitch there is enough evidence to suggest it can, ant the item was able to simulate TAR, whould the item ever dissaper since it would still be in TAR? the Ter'angreal would not vanish becouse its power would maintain it.

THat doesn't mean i agree with this theory though. :p

30

Marie Curie 7: 2007-04-21

vardene:

**Berowin says that she is very skilled at shielding; it's almost a Talent for her, and Berowin could shield someone like Nynaeve even though she is much weaker. Lanfear is the strongest female Forsaken, so even if she is weaker than Rand, she came close to shielding him probably due to her experience and skill. At the point in the scene where Lanfear first begins her attempts to shield him, it seems that Rand was not using the fat little man angreal, or at least there's no mention of him using it until later, after Lanfear has climbed up onto the wagon and found the angreal that Moiraine left.**

there no evidence she's any talent in that area. More likely she used what she knew-T'A'R.


Excuse me? As I have pointed out multiple times, Lanfear is the strongest female Forsaken. Are you suggesting that she is not more knowledgeable and more skilled than Rand at this point? If so, you are certainly mistaken.

Furthermore, Lanfear has shielded Rand before -- when she revealed to him who she really was in The Shadow Rising:

--------
TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 9 - Decisions

"You have been marked." She smiled wryly. "Estates in Cairhien? I may have had estates in those lands, once. The land has changed so much that nothing is as it was. Selene is only a name I sometimes use, Lews Therin. The name I made my own is Lanfear."
Rand barked a shallow laugh. "A poor joke, Selene. I'd as soon make jests about the Dark One as one of the Forsaken. And my name is Rand."
"We call ourselves the Chosen," she said calmly. "Chosen to rule the world forever. We will live forever. You can, also."
He frowned at her worriedly. She actually thought she was... Her travails in reaching Tear must have unhinged her. But she did not look mad. She was calm, cool, certain. Without thinking, he found himself reaching for saidin. He reached for it - and struck a wall he could not see or feel, except that it kept him from the Source. "You can't be." She smiled. "Light," he breathed. "You are one of them."
-------

So, once again, you are left making nothing but suppositions with no foundation in book evidence. There's no evidence that anything lasting can be brought out of Tel'aran'rhiod; in fact, just the opposite has been shown to you time and time again based on book evidence. There's no book evidence of your claim that Lanfear always wears her moons and star jewelry when she is going into conflict. There's no book evidence of your notion that Cadsuane's ter'angreal makes her more effective against the Shadow. And, there's no book evidence that Lanfear has exhibited any special powers related to bringing Tel'aran'rhiod into the waking world. Unless you can provide some quotes to back up your speculation, in my opinion your theory is without foundation.

**Note that the BWB notes that Lanfear was often seen wearing jewelry with moons and stars. However, it does not refer to any one specific piece of jewelry (such as a hair ornament similar to Cadsuane's ter'angreal). And there is no evidence that what Lanfear sometimes wears is anything other than jewelry. Nor is there any evidence that she always wears it when preparing for conflicts. And there is definitely no evidence that she brought it or anything else out of Tel'aran'rhiod**

you're getting there marie, she was seen often enough with same set of jewelry should provoke the question why? what need do AS have for ornaments?


First, the quote does not say that Lanfear was seen always wearing the same set of jewelry. It says that she was often seen wearing jewelry with the moon and stars motif. Second, it has been stated more than once that it might be possible that the moon and stars jewelry that Lanfear wears is a ter'angreal. However, that's just speculation because there is no evidence for it. And, even if it is a ter'angreal, there is no need to invoke Lanfear bringing it out of Tel'aran'rhiod, and also no evidence to support such a thing.

Finally, why does Lanfear wear jewelry? Probably for the same reason that she almost always wear white. For that matter, why does Semirhage almost always wear black? Or, why does Graendal frequently wear flimsy gowns and keep half-naked servants? After all, what need do any of the Forsaken have with ornaments or clothing? They do these things because of vanity, because of ego, because of jealousy in some cases, because even the Forsaken are human.


31

vardene: 2008-04-27

Tam,

***However, as to your main point, I see no reason to believe such a ter'angreal must have been created in TAR.***

Lanfear does not posses any skill with making ter'angreal that we know of. And the mirror of mists is easily penetrated by touch.Once She could make a ter'angreal in TAR, it would be useful if she wanted to alter her beauty.

32

vardene: 2008-04-29

marie,

***Excuse me? As I have pointed out multiple times, Lanfear is the strongest female Forsaken. Are you suggesting that she is not more knowledgeable and more skilled than Rand at this point? If so, you are certainly mistaken.***

The point i was making is that Lanfear seems to be stronger than rand, despite rand's use of an angreal. How? We don't know of any angreal that she has. Her stars and crescents are unaccounted for. They may be just ornaments, but that doesn't seem like the ambitious Lanfear we know. If she keeps them around, there's likely a reason for it. But what also caught my attention is that Lanfear wears these "ornaments" even when she's preparing for a possible OP conflict -occured in TSH, i couldn't find it- then its likely that she knows of some advantage they'll give her.

To recap, its all about "hidden powers". The prophecy is clear that Lanfear has hidden powers and i think this may be it.

***”Moreover, lanfear's beauty is rather suspicious. If she was really as beautiful as she pretends, why would LTT forget?”

Who says he forgot?***

First Lanfear said LT might have forgotten how beautiful she was???. Why would he forget that? Maybe she was afraid he would remember something else? That she wasn't always as beautiful as she appears now. To reason it logically, most men don't forget a beautiful woman. Very few would forget a beauty queen they loved for some time. But who would forget a Miss universe? One you were lovers with? There's a very false ring to this.

True anyone could change their looks with the mirror of mists. But it is easily detected by touch. You kiss her, and she turns into an old hag. If she did this through a terangreal, it would pass the touch test. But we don't know of any skills that Lanfear has with respect to making terangreal, so the most likely place she could have gotten any is TAR.

Rahvin tried to change LT in TAR and Moghedien did too. Lanfear could be anything she wanted here. But to keep it in the waking world would mean keeping all her advantages. It would also force her to keep it secret since she isn't the only one who could use TAR.