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TT is NOT a construct, because that's redundant

by BrainFireBob: 2006-11-28 | 2.43 out of 10 (21 votes)

Recent Categories: LTT, Rand, and Moridin

I don't have much time, but this is really burning my brisket, so I'm going to go ahead and slap this out.

LTT is NOT a construct. The construct theory fails Occam's Razor- it's overcomplicated and doesn't fit the mechanics of Jordan's world as he's defined them- it depends too much on magic to work. In theory, there is much discussion of how "normal" definitions of insanity don't apply, since it's a fantasy series- no, Jordan is at pains for real-world parallel.

Why does the LTT is a Construct fail?

What is a personality in Jordan's world?

There are two elements: Soul and memory.

The way souls are used, Jordan quite patently does not subscribe to tabula rasa- the soul represents a base personality type and emotional matrix that interprets its experiences and "Grows" a personality from them- meaning the memories "alter" the growth of the soul into patterns that form the personality.

What situation is there in Rand's head?

Rand has two independent memory sets, both colored, shaped, and prioritized by the same soul- meaning they're both 100% compatible with the soul.

Personality is soul+memory.

Same soul, same memory=same person.

Soul combined with this lifetime's memories: Rand.

Soul combined with AOL lifetime's memories: Lews Therin.

As long as the Rand body contains the Lews Therin memories and the Lews Therin soul, there must be a resultant Lews Therin personality, much as the combination of the Rand memories and the Rand soul gives the Rand personality.

Is the redundancy clear? There HAS to be a Lews Therin personality as long as Lews Therin memories are present.

Two objections might appear: One, why doesn't Rand integrate the memories of Lews Therin, and two, where are the Lews Therin memories coming from?

Rand and Lews Therin had two radically different upbringings, one is an educated, erudite man of strong will who lived three hundred years in a very sophisticated culture, one is a farm boy who lived nineteen years in a medieval farmer's community and about two years in a High Medieval/Renaissance culture.

The Lews Therin personality must exist and be noticeable to Rand precisely because, despite their identical basic emotional matrix, Lews Therin would have differing opinions to Rand on many issues, opinions Rand could clearly label as not his own.

It is significant that the Lews Therin voice "grows" throughout the series, and more significant what memories transfer to Rand versus what "thoughts" he's aware of from Lews Therin.

As Rand gains more of Lews Therin's memories, or gains access, the "voice" grows- because the memory set is becoming sufficient to "qualify" as the Lews Therin personality. Before, he could have snatches- because as we learn from Mat, with memories comes the understanding that shaped/interpreted those memories, the entire reason he can speak and understand the Old Tongue in the first place.

Rand is significantly not aware of Lews Therin's memories, or Lews Therin as a separate personality, at those times both personalities are in harmony/agreement with each other. When confronting Taim, Rand lists off atrocities of the Forsaken- and notes that he knows those can't be his memories, yet he has no sense of Lews Therin commenting or offering them up. The same happens when listing atrocities of Sammael to Sammael's messenger. He even comments that the pain of what Lews Therin had seen "burned across the Void as if Rand's". The significance is that both Rand and Lews Therin confronted with those scenes underwent an identicual visceral reaction- this is what shapes memories "in common."

In contrast, Rand is aware of Lews Therin humming at Caraline Damodred, a woman who makes Rand's heart clench. Rand is aware of the separateness of Lews Therin's "thoughts" _when_ those_ thoughts_ are_ not_ in_ harmony_ with_ Rand's_own.

This is why Rand is torn between whether or not Lews Therin can "see" him. Lews isn't separate from Rand. He's Rand operating out of a different upbringing and background memory set. So, when Rand's confronted with something and considers one action immediately, he "notices" "Lews" considering another. Does Lews see? No more than Rand.

I recall a science fiction story from a philo class I took. A man ends up with his organic brain and a robotic copy each remotely controlling his body, and every six months hits the switch that determines which is "actually" in control. Because they're identical, he has no sense of disorientation and switching between the two- whatever one wishes to do, the other wishes to do as well at the exact same time, since both "minds" receive sensory input. ie, it seems to both minds that they are in control.

At the end of the story, he hits the switch- and something has gone wrong. Perhaps a neuron died, or a component broke down- but the minds had gone out of synch. One mind had then become a prisoner in its own body.

Rand and Lews Therin are in a similar situation. Rand only notices Lews Therin's thoughts when they're "out of synch" with his own, and this generally manifests as a voice. When they are in synch, Rand's absorbing memories without any awareness whatsoever- because the memories are "intuitively" correct in their compatibility.

There is three-fold relevence here.

First off: Rand's isolation, followed by excessive physical training in tDR on.

Rand could have become a blademaster inside of five years, studying under perhaps the best blademaster in Randland. Instead, he becomes one in little more than one.

Is it because it's fantasy? No, Jordan doesn't write like that.

Lews Therin was a blademaster, with similar proportions to Rand- we're told they have the same height, and during Rahvin's attack we learn Lews had slightly longer fingers, etc. But their proportions are the same- the bodies are very similar.

In order to integrate the "early" extra memories, Rand needed to develop a point of commonality. The obsessive bladework allowed the Rand half to gain enough muscle and skill to tap into Lews Therin's ability, and the Lews Therin half was able to "learn" the subtle differences of Rand's body in order to use his skills- with both personalities in harmony, Rand is able to access the full range of Lews Therin's skills in the Rand body, without any sense that they are not Rand's own.

It is significant that only very late in this process can Rand draw from Lews Therin, or play music Lews Therin has heard.

Lanfear was surprised Rand played the flute, and when Rand found it after a long period, he didn't play very well. This isn't how playing a music instrument goes- you retain almost all your skill, you lose muscle tone and wind.

But the Lews Therin half had no experience in playing instruments, so the gestalt physical skills needed more fine integration.

I now need to check, but it occurs to me that it is after mastering the blade that Rand begins wondering where his flute his- subconsciously wanting to fine-tune his shared physical set?

I would propose this is part of the point of Rand hardening himself- Lews Therin was not hard, and it has the additional ability of dissociating their emotional reactions. If Rand doesn't react and Lews does, then there's no commonality, preventing synthesis of personalities.

I would put forward this is why the central importance to the Wheel of Cadsuane teaching Rand laughter and tears- without laughter and tears, there is no shared emotional matrix to allow commonality with Lews Therin, therefore disallowing Rand access to Lews Therin's memories, leaving him only with Lews Therin's thoughts.

Lews Therin's madness is easily explained out of this as well- the Rand half still, until recently, had "primary" control of the body, meaning he's trapped, though he can perceive- so his thoughts are turning inwards more often than not.

Further points:

The Taint-degradation I'm going to note briefly.

Osan'gar and Aran'gar note that they lose memories while "asleep"- meaning dead (the short sleep). RJ has also commented Sammael is toast, etc, though he can be reborn. This suggests that death erases souls.

This also suggests that the Heroes, who we already know don't go into the "soul pool", are a special case whose memories are "retained" in tel'aran'rhiod and can be reclaimed between lifetimes. Perhaps their souls aren't white-washed, and perhaps the Wheel "flash-imprints" tel'aran'rhiod with their memories, explaining why Birgitte's losing hers as she's farther away from tel'aran'rhiod- her memories are there, not in her body. Her body has a temp folder that's slowly being emptied for new input.

With Taint degradation, Rand would be gaining access to memories of ALL his past lives, because they're not separated for Heroes who are dead. This is NOT the case.

The alternative is the "LTT trapped his soul in Dragonmount" theory- to which I subscribe and which I may post here again soon if it doesn't turn up. The short version of it: the Rand body was stillborn but compatible with (or the intended body of) the Dragon soul- so the soul recognized no difference between the mountain and the body on it. The soul was not wiped clean, nor did it have whatever barriers heroes get- but after 3000 years, it'd be a bit batty and probably comatose from total sensory deprivation.

Hence Tar Valon and even the ward around Callandor- made from stone from all over the world, it could easily have incorporated a piece of Dragonmount and only allowed through what the ward recognized as "the same"- Rand's body, yet another container compatible with the LTT soul.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2007-02-24

Hey BFB, well put together. I am sure you will recieve much feedback. Well, the LTT is a Construct is not my theory, however I believe all personalities are constructs, constructs of a new life, a set of memories, intuitions, experiences, emotions, etc., unique to an identity created during the life of this new construct. Although, you have yet to explain why Rand did not experience any sensation of LTT or any memories and emotions out of sync until after leaving on his quest. Your theory would have to state that Rand was in perfect harmony as a farm boy, with the responses of LTT's life experience, which seems quite a stretch, considering the differences we see him experience with LTT, when put in similar circumstances (which one might assume would lead to more shared experience than not). You must believe that never having touched tainted saidin, or had any interference by the Wheel, that Rand would have had these same issues with the second personality in his head, which seems unlikely considering Birgitte has a variety of varying personalities in her head and finds no such issues with integrating the variety of responses that don't match between personalities and the new personality this life is creating. I would also like to see you support the idea that a soul's previous personalities must be "erased" when returned to the soul pool; that seems more like magic, than to believe that all personalities remain with a soul, especially after we have blatant evidence of such in the souls. Occam's razor wouldn't support your conclusion on "erased" souls in this instance. Finally, since we see that Birgitte, when she comes into the Real World can sense her personalities/memories, and identify most recent to oldest, and is losing the oldest first, the fact that Rand, by the time he is only seventeen, might only have access to the most recent life this soul lived, seems rather simple in its explanation and supported again by the only other experience we have of another Hero in this world.

2

terez: 2007-02-24

BFB:

LTT is NOT a construct. The construct theory fails Occam's Razor- it's overcomplicated and doesn't fit the mechanics of Jordan's world as he's defined them- it depends too much on magic to work.

I would be interested in hearing your concept of the “magic” that is required for the Construct theory to work. And really, it’s not overly complicated. Quite simple, actually.

In theory, there is much discussion of how "normal" definitions of insanity don't apply, since it's a fantasy series- no, Jordan is at pains for real-world parallel.

The reason why real-world definitions of personality disorders don’t work is because none of them fit. MPD, for instance, is close, but with MPD, when an alternate personality is dominant, the person experiences black-out periods, and they don’t remember anything that they did during that time. This isn’t the case with Rand. Real-world psychological conditions are lacking, because we don’t have instances in the real world where people have memories from past lives. At least, not that I know of.

As long as the Rand body contains the Lews Therin memories and the Lews Therin soul, there must be a resultant Lews Therin personality, much as the combination of the Rand memories and the Rand soul gives the Rand personality.

Is the redundancy clear? There HAS to be a Lews Therin personality as long as Lews Therin memories are present.


No, the redundancy isn’t clear. The personality that Rand has constructed contains elements of the true Lews Therin personality that is a part of the memories; the construction itself goes beyond that, however. The illusion of a separate sentience is a big issue. The fact that the personality expresses Rand’s own suppressed thoughts and emotions is another big issue.

As Rand gains more of Lews Therin's memories, or gains access, the "voice" grows- because the memory set is becoming sufficient to "qualify" as the Lews Therin personality. Before, he could have snatches- because as we learn from Mat, with memories comes the understanding that shaped/interpreted those memories, the entire reason he can speak and understand the Old Tongue in the first place.

I feel like you lost your train of thought here, or something. The progression of the “voice” is pretty clear - it begins with the scene with Lanfear, in The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9. This is an instance of Rand spontaneously speaking from the memories; he has no idea where the words come from, but he knows they are true. He very studiously refuses to think about that incident after it happens - a sure sign of denial. As in, he had a pretty good idea somewhere in the back of his head where those words came from, and just didn’t want to think about it. In the next chapter, Moiraine tells him that Lanfear loved Lews Therin, which should have told him exactly where the words came from, but he still refuses to think about it. I don’t know that that particular scene was any less “sufficient to qualify as the Lews Therin personality” than anything else that happened later on.

In The Fires of Heaven, in the very beginning, Rand begins to have thoughts that are rooted in the Lews Therin memories. Even then, he still refuses to recognize the source of them. I think you and I are in agreement that it is not exactly a “voice” speaking to him in his head, especially at this point - it is just thoughts that Rand refuses to recognize as his own, because the memories upon which they are based are memories that Rand does not recognize as his own. Eventually Rand recognizes the source of the memories, and goes into full denial mode, ostensibly out of a refusal to identify with the deeds that made Lews Therin’s name known. Through Lord of Chaos, Rand makes several attempts to actually address the voice in his head. By the end, in the box, he is actually having a conversation with it, and the fact that Rand was not able to pull this off until he was under extreme mental duress is telling.



This is why Rand is torn between whether or not Lews Therin can "see" him. Lews isn't separate from Rand. He's Rand operating out of a different upbringing and background memory set. So, when Rand's confronted with something and considers one action immediately, he "notices" "Lews" considering another. Does Lews see? No more than Rand.


I don’t see how this statement contradicts the Construct theory in the slightest.

In order to integrate the "early" extra memories, Rand needed to develop a point of commonality. The obsessive bladework allowed the Rand half to gain enough muscle and skill to tap into Lews Therin's ability, and the Lews Therin half was able to "learn" the subtle differences of Rand's body in order to use his skills- with both personalities in harmony, Rand is able to access the full range of Lews Therin's skills in the Rand body, without any sense that they are not Rand's own.

I agree with Tam here - there’s not any evidence that there was any memory involved in Rand’s learning of the sword - RJ has said that Lan is the most skilled swordsman in his world, and Rand did push himself very hard, so it’s not completely unreasonable that he gained the skill on his own. To say otherwise, you would need some corroborating evidence, which you don’t have.

It is significant that only very late in this process can Rand draw from Lews Therin, or play music Lews Therin has heard.

Significant in what way? There’s no telling when Rand would have had the ability to draw like Lews Therin, for one thing; he only realized that he had the ability when he realized that he needed it. And how are these abilities any more, or perhaps less, significant than the other memories that he has been getting since The Shadow Rising?

Lanfear was surprised Rand played the flute, and when Rand found it after a long period, he didn't play very well. This isn't how playing a music instrument goes- you retain almost all your skill, you lose muscle tone and wind.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at here, either. Muscle tone and wind have a great deal to do with how well you can play an instrument; I know that from experience. They especially have a great deal to do with it when the skill wasn’t very well developed to begin with.

But the Lews Therin half had no experience in playing instruments, so the gestalt physical skills needed more fine integration.

I think that’s stretching things beyond reason.

I now need to check, but it occurs to me that it is after mastering the blade that Rand begins wondering where his flute his- subconsciously wanting to fine-tune his shared physical set?

I really doubt it - he found a great deal of solace in playing the flute, and I don’t see any reason to think that his desire to play it had anything to do with a subconscious desire for synchronicity between his two personalities. Occam’s Razor, remember?

I would propose this is part of the point of Rand hardening himself- Lews Therin was not hard, and it has the additional ability of dissociating their emotional reactions. If Rand doesn't react and Lews does, then there's no commonality, preventing synthesis of personalities.

The reason why Rand hardens himself is obvious. He doesn’t want to repeat the crimes of Lews Therin, but he has to allow women to die for him. The Maidens forced him to promise them that they would be allowed to die for him. He hardens himself against this responsibility, and against all of his responsibilities - the constant burden on his shoulders. He hardens himself against despair, such as in the cell in Far Madding, where he almost lost his mind. He was so desperate in the cell, that he was actually looking forward to the Tower Aes Sedai coming to fetch him, so that he could be out of the cell. It reminded him too much of the box. Here’s another example of Rand attempting to disassociate himself from Lews Therin:

_________________
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 20 - The Golden Crane

Rand shook his head in disgust. These flies were all too alive. Not every Saldaean defending this barn had died, but all of the Saldaean dead had been gathered here. Saldaeans disliked burials in rain. None of them could say why, but you just did not bury people while it was raining. Nineteen men lay in a neat row on the floor, as neat as it could be when some were missing limbs or had their heads split open. But they had been laid out carefully by their friends and companions, their faces washed, their eyes closed. They were why he had come there. Not to say goodbye or anything sentimental; he had not known any of these men more than to recognize a face here and there. He had come to remind himself that even what seemed a complete victory had its cost in blood. Still, they deserved better than to be crawling with flies.

I need no reminders, Lews Therin growled.

I’m not you, Rand thought. I have to harden myself. “Logain, get rid of these bloody things!” he said aloud.

You’re harder than I ever was, Lews Therin said. Suddenly he giggled. If you’re not me, then who are you?
____________________

Rand probably doesn’t need the reminders any more than Lews Therin would; he’s hardening himself, in his own words, with the cost of his war. He likes to hold himself responsible for these things - it’s his way of keeping himself separate from Lews Therin Kinslayer. He still holds on to the perceptions of Lews Therin that he was raised with - in his mind, the man is a monster. But he subconsciously reminds himself, here, that he is Lews Therin, reborn. “If you’re not me, then who are you?” Indeed. And that is the source of the problem.

I would put forward this is why the central importance to the Wheel of Cadsuane teaching Rand laughter and tears- without laughter and tears, there is no shared emotional matrix to allow commonality with Lews Therin, therefore disallowing Rand access to Lews Therin's memories, leaving him only with Lews Therin's thoughts.

Again, I don’t quite see what you’re getting at. The need for “laughter and tears” is obvious - Rand’s hardening of himself makes him fragile. Less resilient; more likely to be broken. Of course, the main reason why he continues to harden himself is the fear that he will become like Lews Therin - or at least, like the perception that he has of Lews Therin, a murdering madman.

Lews Therin's madness is easily explained out of this as well- the Rand half still, until recently, had "primary" control of the body, meaning he's trapped, though he can perceive- so his thoughts are turning inwards more often than not.

Perhaps you were just in too much of a hurry when you wrote this. How has Lews Therin’s “madness” been explained? How, exactly, is Rand trapped? When has Rand ever lost control of his body? When he thumbs his earlobe? I would hardly call that a loss of control.

Osan'gar and Aran'gar note that they lose memories while "asleep"- meaning dead (the short sleep). RJ has also commented Sammael is toast, etc, though he can be reborn. This suggests that death erases souls.

That’s quite a leap. All it suggests is that the Dark One was holding their souls - that’s probably why it was “far more horrific” than the “long sleep” when they were trapped in the Bore. Neither sleep has much to say about the normal trip to the soul pool.

With Taint degradation, Rand would be gaining access to memories of ALL his past lives, because they're not separated for Heroes who are dead. This is NOT the case.

Actually, Birgitte remembers her past lives as “books well-read” - that’s plural, by the way. Each life is a separate book, so it stands to reason that they are each separated by their own barrier.

The alternative is the "LTT trapped his soul in Dragonmount" theory- to which I subscribe and which I may post here again soon if it doesn't turn up. The short version of it: the Rand body was stillborn but compatible with (or the intended body of) the Dragon soul- so the soul recognized no difference between the mountain and the body on it. The soul was not wiped clean, nor did it have whatever barriers heroes get- but after 3000 years, it'd be a bit batty and probably comatose from total sensory deprivation.

You’d have a bit of a hard time explaining with that one how Rand grew up sane as could be. Besides, didn’t we already deal with that theory? I think so…

3

Davian93: 2007-02-24

First of all, I would recommend a reread of Lord of Chaos and Crown of Swords. Note all the times that Rand "hears" LTT's voice and his emotional state at the time. Every time "LTT" is raging Rand is distancing himself from his emotions. Everytime Rand himself gets irritated, shows emotion etc, the LTT voice disappears. The Construct theory is the strongest theory to explain Rand's emotional split and behavior that has been written to this point. Simply put, Rand created the LTT personality to explain the source of his memories to ihs subconscious and to allow an outlet for all the raging emotion he has been holding in in an effort to "harden" himself and prepare for the Last Battle.

Where's Callandor when you need him?

4

Terez1: 2007-02-25

"Where's Callandor when you need him?"

Hey, are you trying to say I didn't do a good job?

Seriously, though...I echo the sentiment. Four new theories, and no Callandor to rip them apart...

:(

5

vardene: 2007-03-22

most of the conclusions are pretty much straightforward and agreeable. Though i expect we have different interpretations of the pyschiatric aspects of the discussion but this is a very good one and easy to grasp.

The only disagreement i've got is with the last bit- there's no need for LT to be batty. i dont expect anyone to survive 3000yrs in a mountain unless there was some intervention in place. Same intervention ought to have taken care of his senses or he'd be hopeless by now. i believe the only conclusion that can work is that he wasn't there at all but there was a link there waitng for (a) right person (b) right timing to trigger it.

6

Aryl: 2007-04-12

I like this theory and theres not much to say on it but this...

I believe that yes lews is there in his head, a seperate personality, and yet also a construct. Rand is losing it, the permanent wounds are tainting him faster in my opinion, and even with the taint on saidin gone, the taint from his wounds is different. So my addendum to this theory is that I believe that both are the case, Rand has crazy thoughts that he attributes to the lews therin personality...

Terez, I just want to addrss something

The reason why real-world definitions of personality disorders don’t work is because none of them fit. MPD, for instance, is close, but with MPD, when an alternate personality is dominant, the person experiences black-out periods, and they don’t remember anything that they did during that time. This isn’t the case with Rand. Real-world psychological conditions are lacking, because we don’t have instances in the real world where people have memories from past lives. At least, not that I know of.

MPD can be different that said, you can have the multiple personalities aware of each other, and aware of their seperate actions... It's part of leading to the healing of said MPD. If you can get your personalities all in one place, they start joining and becoming One. Anyways, good rebuff though.

7

fish06: 2008-05-24

I have read both Callandor's theory and this one but I still have one issue. In Knife of Dreams LTT seizes sadin first. I believe Callandor explained this by saying that it is Rand being crazy and thinking that LTT grabbed sadin. This seems kinda weak in my opinion. Callandor may have explained it better and if so I am not aware.

To get back to the point, it seems unrealistic that Rand would have a psychotic breakdown when he is faced with all the Trollocs about to overpower the manor. He has been in stressfull situation of similar nature before and not lost it. Furthermore, he is not in an emotional state (could be wrong hear didn't re-read the chapter because I am lazy) therefore, according to Callandors theory he would have no reason to project his emotions as a LTT construct. Read his theory I am not good at explaining it. So to conclude I think that something else is going on maybe a little of both but neither theory is entirely accurate and I don't have a better answer.

8

JakOShadows: 2008-05-26

fish06:

I agree that it is not MPD like you would see in reality. But I think it is caused by the memories in his head, as Callandor has said. And the disorder comes from him having to reconcile the fact that he has memories of two lives in his head. And in that chapter in KOD, he just had a mind link(or whatever you want to call it) in which he sees Moridin and recognizes that he's in a version of the Ansaline Gardens. That is a memory from a previous life, and maybe that sparked a stronger connection than is normally present.

Also keep in mind that over the time span of the books he has relied more and more on memories from his past life as LTT to accomplish his goals. This could also be why the other personality is getting stronger. It could be that the connection to the other personality is just go up exponentially until it reaches a maximum and then when he comes to terms with it'll disappear completely, creating a sudden spike like we're seeing now.

This is all very abstract so we disagree a lot on the details, but I think we can all agree that it is MPD related to pschological trauma caused by his current situation. I think it would be interesting to get a clinical psychologists opinion on what could be causing it, because he/she would know a lot more about it than us and they might even have seen situations very similar to this.

9

Ozymandias: 2008-05-28

"Also keep in mind that over the time span of the books he has relied more and more on memories from his past life as LTT to accomplish his goals. This could also be why the other personality is getting stronger. It could be that the connection to the other personality is just go up exponentially until it reaches a maximum and then when he comes to terms with it'll disappear completely, creating a sudden spike like we're seeing now. "

This isn't necessarily true, and if it is, it could be a chicken and egg argument. Is LTT getting stronger because Rand utilizes his past memories more, or are those memories coming back in greater number and detail because LTT is getting stronger?

Barring some major event, its hard to see Rand fighting off LTT. My guess would be that they come closest to a merge by TG, and then LTT subsides due to something that happens during the battle. Just a guess.

But there is no logical reason to presume this is going to reach a head any time soon. Rand's experience with LTT has varied based urely on his own determination to keep the man out; when he's in the box, LTT is strongest, when he's distracted, LTT's mannerisms come into play. No reason to see that changing any time soon

10

JakOShadows: 2008-05-29

Ozy:

If you don't think its the memories causing the MPD, then what would cause it. We know he's trying to harden himself to a point thats unhealthy, but the rantings of his alternate personality have nothing to do with that. Whenever his alternate personality starts ranting, its about desires relating to the experiences of LTT in his past life. I don't know much about the disorder, so if you can give an alternate reason and back it up I'll listen. It just seems like his memories are the most logical answer right now, given what is being said in the rantings.

And as for your comment about him always being this way and the change only coming at the LB after a long period, how much longer do you think he has? I used the word spike because whether or not it happens before the LB or during the LB, I think its going to happen fairly quickly anyways. Unless he stays this crazy after living through the LB, which I find very unlikely. So thats the reason why I used the word spike. Over the pattern of his whole life, it has been over the last two months he has had an obvious case of MPD; this in my mind constitutes a sudden spike to outside parties.

I guess RJ could have intended the last book to span over a longer period of time than the other books, but the way he's written the previous books I don't think its likely. IMO, I expect things to end pretty quickly in the next book.

11

fish06: 2008-05-29

I just don't think that you can chalk this up to a disease. It doesn't seem as likely. Madness could effect channelers in different ways but the couple we have seen do not seem like Rand. Mor was like a little kid and the flashback when LTT kills everyone seems more like they have a warped perseption of reality. Therefore I believe that LTT does not reflect madness in Rand. I also don't think it is a disease. LTT has a very real personality and memories and is able to sieze the source. I don't think these things point to a mental disease. I don't believe that Rand conjured him to deal with his situation. LTT's memories are to congruent with what happened in past for Rand to create him.

12

Ozymandias: 2008-05-29

Firstly, I doubt MoL is gonna take longer than any other book. The first few books took over a few years... I think EotW spanned a full year in and of itself. Could be very, very wrong though.

Secondly, couldn't it be that his currently unique situation as the Dragon Reborn is causing the memories? wait, that sounds stupid.

The point being: I'm not disagreeing with you about the memories causing MPD. I just think that it really is a chicken and egg argument. Your entire premise of how the memories are being recalled can be used for an equally firm justification for LTT having slipped through the cracks in his reborn soul. Thats all I''m saying.

LTT and the memories both originate from the same source and are both the result of the same phenomenon. Therefore, because of the IDENTICAL similarities in their origins, its impossible for us to say which came first. In theory, doesn't one have to come with the other? Its a package deal, I'd assume. If LTT comes, he brings his memories with him. If the memories come, they have to bring a piece of LTT's consciousness along for the ride. So they're inseperably linked.