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o Live, You Must Die-The Rand Moridin Connection

by Pezzax: 2007-02-06 | 3.55 out of 10 (11 votes)

Recent Categories: LTT, Rand, and Moridin

I've been a lurker here on and off for quite a while,finally decided to join after re-reading Cholly's post on Rand living beyond the LB. Its funny how I can read all of the same quotes that he listed and come up with such a different opinion of what I expect will happen,though I do have a shadow of a doubt, and that's why I will read when R.J. writes.

So thanks to Cholly for all of the research, but here's my spin on it:

**Theory: Rand al'Thor will die at Tarmon Gai'don, but his soul will live on in Moridin's body. Logain will rise up as the "General" in Rand's absence and will earn his glory. Alivia will kill Rand's body when Rand's soul is transferred to Moridin's body,and thus will Ishamael finally be destroyed.

I also think that only Alivia and Rand will know what has happened until after the funeral,Rand can't even bring himself to tell Min about the Aelfinn and Eelfinn answers, so how could he tell her this plan? What if it didn't work???

Using quotes gathered by Cholly (sorry, I do not have my books right now and Cholly did a great job on most of the quotes I need), here are some of the reasons I think this:

1. The Great Hunt, Chapter 26, Discord, Pages 325-326: "Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live, and twice to die."

Interpret this as two times marked to live two times, and two times marked to die two times. Two lives, in two different bodies, and two deaths,Rand Al'Thor's body dies at the LB, and Rand's spirit lives on in Moridin's body after the LB to die a natural death some other time. Callandor's interpretation that it is four markings for one life and one death is an accurate interpretation as well, but no more valid, in my opinion.

2. The Great Hunt, Chapter 26, Discord, Page 326: "Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth."

Once for mourning for the loss of Rand Al'Thor,once for the "birth" of his spirit in its new body.

3. The Shadow Rising, Chapter 3, Reflection, Page 71: "That is the one that will kill me, isn't it?" he asked her softly, then quoted," 'His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation.' "

A real sacrifice must be made,the Dragon must die for man's salvation,and Lews Therin is READY for that sacrifice. But in order for Lews Therin to die, Rand's body must also die.

4. Min's viewing that Alivia will "help Rand die."

Not help Rand fake his death. If fake deaths were part of Min's viewings, then she probably would have said that Lanfear would help Moiraine die.

5. In Knife of Dreams, Lord Algarin's Manor House, right after the Trolloc attack, Rand makes a bargain with Lews Therin that they will die at the LB.

He will keep his word, allow Alivia to kill him, but he will move a fraction of an inch and merge with the other face in his head and take over Moridin's body right when Alivia kills his body.

6. Rand's feeling that if he moves a fraction of an inch, he will MERGE with the face in his mind. (from Knife Of Dreams in Lord Algarin's Manor house when he channels to fight the trollocs, I believe.)

This is important. He spends pretty much every waking moment trying to figure out how he will USE things, people, situations, etc to achieve victory at the LB and to LIVE. This forsaken in his mind is consuming his thoughts,why would he not try to USE a person for whom he has no love if he uses everyone he cares about?

7. A Crown Of Swords, Chapter 33, A Bath, Page 526: "She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said," There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and. . . ." Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. I don't know which it means, Rand except that one of you dies and one doesn't. I-why are you grinning? This isn't a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies.""

Clearly,this viewing can easily be Rand and Moridin and only one will live. They merge into one another.

8. The Path Of Daggers, Chapter 15, Stronger Then Written Law, Page 308: "Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."

Rand's masks are Lews Therin, Moridin, perhaps Lord of the Morning, all of his titles,but suddenly he merges with Moridin and Rand's soul is in that body and it is no longer a mask. (of course, there are other interpretations, but since they don't support MY theory, I'm not bringing them up!)

9. Aelfinn's answer to How to win the LB and live: "The north and east must be as one. The west and south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die."

Not fake your death. The dragon must die,for Rand to live.

10. Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 14, Dreams and Nightmares, Page 255: "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives,."

He who is dead yet lives. He who DIED still lives. (in another body)

11. Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 19, Matter's Of Toh, Page 312: "Melaine and Bair dreamed of you [Rand] on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see and a scale tilting first one way and then the other. Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him,."

The scale is whether good or evil will win. The man standing just a fraction of an inch to the side of him is Moridin and he certainly has a dagger to Rand's throat,though Rand NOW sees him.

12. Multiple viewings of three women standing over a funeral bier, indicating Rand's death,.and the (temporary) mourning of Elayne, Aviendha, and Min.

13. My personal desire to have Rand and his harem live a happy ending: Rand's unhealed wounds, his missing arm, his damaged eyes,his body is so shattered it is hardly worth keeping. Moridin's body, on the other hand, is young and beautiful. Also, it solves things like Rand not being able to channel without being dizzy and almost vomiting, Lews Therin being in his head, etc. Wholly a theory and desire, nothing to do with quotes or anything else.

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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2007-07-03

When you say "finally be destroyed", how exactly are you proposing that the Dark One will be unable to transmigrate Ishamael, because your theory assumes that Rand will be able to take the body, which removes Balefire as a potential weapon. However, since I have always been a believer that Lanfear's knowledge is key to healing the Bore, I like the idea that Rand could extract that information from her as Moridin. When you think about it, the books are really about Lanfear, and how the Pattern attempts to correct itself after what she has done. Anyway, I'm sure there will be some discussion about your idea.

2

Ozymandias: 2007-07-04

Nice to see some fresh theorizing going on in here, or fresh approvals I guess. Also glad to see someone else is jumping on the idea that perhaps the viewing MIn had referred to Moridin and not LTT... I've been pushing that one for a while.

Anyways, a few comments. How exactly does Rand get into Moridin's body? For all intents and purposes, there are only two ways this happens. Either the Wheel spins you out into a new body, which requires total death as a prerequisite, or the Dark One transfers your soul, which also requires a total death.

Now quite aside from the fact that your theory never has Rand truly dying, only leaping from body to body, there are a few problems in how he gets transferred. Clearly the Dark One isn't gonna do it... thats a given. And the Wheel ONLY spins out new Heroes, or at least their new incarnations, on a need-only basis. The Dragon has one use, and if he's just won Tarmon Gai'don, well... that use is not a necessity.

Your point of Rand and Moridin merging is a good one, but we have NO evidence that such a merge can either lead to a transfer of corporeal form OR that Rand can jump his consciousness from one body to another.

And what says Rand has to live? I've never seen this idea in my years on TL, though I'm sure someone has said it somewhere along the way.

What if just... dies? To live? There is no subject there. That could refer to the entire world, his memory/legacy... anything.

Even more profound might be the thought that as a Hero of the Horn, Rand lives even when he dies. As far as we can see, a Hero always takes his most recent reincarnation in terms of immediate looks and personality, though they keep the memories of all their lives. So by that logic, just as Rand hears LTT in his head, in 3000 more years, Joe Shmoe might hear Rand in his head.... thats a form of life... interesting thought.

3

irerancincpkc: 2007-07-05

---Not help Rand fake his death. If fake deaths were part of Min’s viewings, then she probably would have said that Lanfear would help Moiraine die.---

Min dosen't see everything about a person, just certain things. She's not entitled to everything. And I'm not sure that you could call what happened to Moiraine a fake death.

---He will keep his word, allow Alivia to kill him, but he will move a fraction of an inch and merge with the other face in his head and take over Moridin’s body right when Alivia kills his body.

That does not sound like a death to me. For this to work as you say, he has to die at some point before he goes to Moridin's body. The only thing you are saying is going to die is his body. Are you excluding a spiritual death? Is that really a death?

And what happens to Moridin in all of this? Where does he go? Does he die?

---Moridin’s body, on the other hand, is young and beautiful. Also, it solves things like Rand not being able to channel without being dizzy and almost vomiting, Lews Therin being in his head, etc.---

Moridin has been using the TP quite a lot, and as we learned, that is not without side effects. I wouldn't say his body is perfect. And if only Rand's body dies, how does LTT go away if his spirt/mind is transferred to Moridin's body? Unless you are saying that LTT is connected to Rand's body exclusivly? I don't agree with that. The dizziness as well could be a mental thing, and switching bodies would not heal that.

4

Stilicho: 2007-07-09

Ozzy, we have seen the result of the Luc/Isam merger, we just don't know the mechanism. We know there is a connection between Rand and Moridin. The question is whether Rand can bootstrap that connection into a transfer. Maybe, like I said, there's already an existing connection to work with. And maybe it could happen as a result of their interaction during the last battle. The connection appears to have resulted from the crossing balefire in Shadar Logoth, so some further interaction could instigate a transfer. Too many unknowns to say definitively, but I'm betting on a transfer so Rand can die AND live, fulfilling the prophesy.

5

JakOShadows: 2007-07-10

Stillchco:

That may be what you want, and it would be great if that were the case, but that doesn't mean that that's whats going to happen. I honestly don't know whats going to happen with Rand, but that doesn't mean that I can make something up and claim that it will happen because you can't disprove it. Its kind of like mythbusters, it may be plausible, but it can't be confirmed. And it seems like that's what your asking for.

6

Stilicho: 2007-07-13

Jak,

Not at all. I'm just extrapolating from the limited info we do have. I could very well be wrong. I'm just saying that I read the signs as pointing to a switch, which I think would allow the prophesy to be fulfilled. There are others on this board who believe that Rand must die, Period, End of game. No switch, no life after TG. I think they ignore the "to live" part. Some try to stretch the "to live" part into a reference to future lives when the Dragon is spun out by the Wheel again. I think that is too much of a stretch, but no one really knows what RJ is thinking. RAFO, of course. I don't think that Rand will necessarily plan the switch or even realize it's coming, but I do think it will happen. Not because you can't disprove it, but because that's where I see this going based on the clues we have. I'm not able to disprove the final death theory either, but that doesn't mean I buy it. One more clue: Min sees something "odd" about Rand and Avi's kids--I think they have dark hair like Moridin. Just speculation at this point, but we KNOW that Rand and Avi WILL have kids (Min's viewings never wrong), Avi cut him off after the first time in the igloo and has not shown any sign of relenting, and, unless they get busy REAL fast, those kids will have to be conceived AFTER the Last Battle...

7

JakOShadows: 2007-07-15

Stilicho:

I'm not doubting that Rand will live. i think with a lot of the prophecies we have now, it will be more likely he will live. But we have no evidence for the switching of bodies (or nothing substantial at least). Just because Aviendha's babies are going to have black doesn't make them Moridin's babies. And the wierdness involved could mean that the bond formed by becoming sisters with Elayne creates a connection. It is just too much of a stretch to make it a likely possibility. The way we have seen nature work in RJ's world makes this a very hard feat to accomplish in my opinion, enough so that we need more evidence to back your theory.

8

Catalyst: 2007-07-18

A bond breaks when one of the bonded perishes, and Mistress Farshaw claims that she saw that or Rand, or "the other man" (although many arguments lead to Moridin being that other one, I still believe it is Lews Therin the viewing is referring to) dies.

When Rand kicks the Dark One's ass, a reward as letting him have his life would be enough. In his own body, or someone else's would not matter much to him. But aside from the Dark One and the Creator no one and nothing else can do such a transfer. The Dark One will be too dead/imprisoned/defeated-in-some-other-way to do him such a favor, and the Creator DOES NOT INTERFERE. From here my conclusion that Rand will live on in his own body (Moridin will most surely die, and I think that whatever kills him, the act will not leave a body).

As for the "get busy" part, I really doubt that either of Rand's women would let him get a f*** in another body except his own.

9

Pogue: 2007-08-29

I would think that the man with a dagger would be Fain/Mordeth I think he may have a bigger role to play in th LB

10

Richard: 2007-11-06

mmmm, I disagree with most of your theory, but mainly as it is based in that somehow Rand dies. He does not. It has been written already that he will live:

Egween:

"Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet"

Nicola:

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." -- my favorite fortelling. Becose is a picture of what is to come and probably what RJ was thinking as his new Mats series. This is his setting the history, his way to tell us that the end was only the begining...

Rand most likely death is tide with the fisher-beggar. He will most likely fake his death and then go as a beggar, dying for everyone else, because is the best course of action, ala Fiz in the assesin thrilogy. Sad and powerful end for a top character.

Min:

"A sword that isn't a sword, A golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, him pouring water on sand, three woman standing over a funeral bier with him on it, A bloody hand and a white hot iron, and black rocks wet with blood"

Perrin:

"Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes"

Moridin:

"The Fisher was always worked as a man, a bandage blinding his eyes and one hand pressed to his side, a few drops of blood dripping through his fingers. The reasons, like the source of the name, were lost in the mist of time."

As for Moridin being the one he "merges with", "the other one". Totally disagree with that. For the same reasons used in the faq. When Rands dream in TPOD, he dream about himself. That indicates that the third person is another facet of Rand internal conflict. For thouse of you saying that LTT is real, then this is another dragon. For those into psicological disturbances, the third man is the future, one-rand-man, the super rand that will kick ass and exile himself as a beggar to appear dead for one or other reason and fullfil all prophesies/viweings/dreams.

11

smokinbrigand: 2007-12-05

Elanye haveing his children could be the once for birth. Just throwing it out there

12

frydcerkit: 2007-12-15

With this theory it would also make Egwene's 3rd Ter'Angreal situation work. If Moridin is in Rand's body then they could execute him in front of everyone. This way Moridin dies and Rand can live without nations sending armies to kill him. I like this theory and at the same time I don't think its very promising. Good way to get the ideas coming though.

13

volker: 2007-12-20

Moridin may not be well known right now, but after Tarmon Gai'don... It's possible that no one will recognize Moridin after the battle but it seems more likely that at least some people of the light side will. So, if Rand is in Moridin's body, who says someone wont try to kill him; even if his women and close supporters know that his soul is in Moridin's body and don't try to kill him, I find it hard to believe that Rand could simply fade into obscurity in the body of the shadow's champion.

14

WolfWarder: 2008-01-23

What about Nynaeve's determination to be able to heal anything short of death? The link between Morridin and Rand can be used by Rand to confuse the dark one and have him kill Morridin. Rand will then be able to defeat the dark one and either destroy or lock him away again causing a new breaking. Nynaeve can then heal him and "grow" back his arm and purge him of the final vestiges of evil from his wound in his side. Just a reminder that the forsaken has already hinted that in their time only death was not possible to heal.

15

Dragon Tamer: 2008-01-28

I think that the two must be one is rand and lews therin becoming one. they seem to be two separate people and this prophecy seems to hint that rand will be lews therin and vice versa and so they will be one. I think that the whole rand is lews therin reborn got screwed up and there were two souls attached to the body, explaining why lews therin is not the person in control and is just a voice.

16

AK-Edge: 2008-01-28

I don't think that Rand and Moridin will merge in any way in the Last Battle.

This series is WAY to centered around souls, and threads, and rebirths to suddenly not count a bodily death as a death. Sure, it isn't the END, but it's AN end. (Haha..aren't I clever, referncing the intro of every book like that? Har har.)

While I understand that the DO does do a lot of things that none of us, or the characters (good, or evil) understand, I have a hard time believing the DO would transfer Rand's soul into Moridin's body, or merge them like Slayer is Luc/Isam...or anything. And we know the Creator doesn't intervene. Not saying it's impossible, but...highly improbable imo.

--

In my opinion, "To live you must die" could simply mean...in order to be reborn into a new, healthy body..you gotta take the dirt nap.

Rand could live, perhaps he dies and while his body is still warm, Nynaeve runs up and out of grief, pulls a trick out of her ass and brings him back?

Or, perhaps he dies like a normal person, and gets buried and everything, and is just reborn into a new body.

--

I personally think Rand will die, and Nynaeve will heal him, or Moiraine will balefire whoever killed him. eg: Rand is fighting Moridin...shooty fire, throwy lightning, punchy face..distracting Moridin so he doesn't notice Moiraine (or another outside good guy). Rand does an Obi-Wan and lets Moridin kill him, but leaves him exposed after. (Notice the repetetiveness of Rand's mentioning "Sheathing the Blade" early on in the books...like in the fight w/ that Seanchan blademaster in falme..Turoc?) Then, in comes balefire-er and BAM! Shoosty Moridin in the face with just enough balefire to rewind about 10 seconds, bring Rand back to life, but not f*** over the pattern totally.

I think that fulfills that he MUST die in order to live in the end. If he doesn't obi-wan, he's in the way of the balefire shot.

17

dacos: 2008-03-17

What about the possibility of something like what happened to Birgitte? Maybe Rand will die, killed by Alivia when he is in an horrible situation, and then as a heroe of the horn appears in Tellarandriod where someone rips him up like Birgitte was.

I also think that the merging is with him and LLT, but with LLT controlling the body. We saw in the KoD book that LLT still knows killing weaves that Rand or anybody have no clue about. It would make sense that he would be free to used them (needing also to control his arms and hand) in the last battle. Therefore another reason for Rand wanting to die since he's not in control of his own body anymore.

Anyways just a few more ideas for discussion.

18

kozma37: 2008-03-28

seriously // i'm not sure how u can believe a connection like this // Rand will die at the end of aMoL, i am 100% sure but he will not come back // he needs to die there // and be reborn in the next age and continue his battle against the DO // i am going with this because as RJ said (and was said in the book , idk which one i would love to get quotes but one close at the moment : /) the WoT world is a continuous cycle that keeps repeating itself and NEEDs to keep repeating itself /// that is what i think that "to live, you must die" means //

19

skennedy: 2008-05-06

If I may; Operating from the assumption that Rand will somehow come through the books hale and whole ( and I think there's plenty to suggest that will be the case ), we have to look for ways that this will happen. We have, really, only one way documented in the books for someone to die and come back is through the intervention of a "higher" power; the DO in this case. Lanfear and Ish both eat it and are reincarnated ( to name two ). I don't think it's too far out of wack to assume this will happen again to Rand; in fact it'd be an interesting story arc.

As to HOW this happens, I have no clue. But given this is the only way we know of that someone can die and be resurrected, it's the most logical assumption. Further, it's not too far out of wack to assume the Creator ( who, if you'll remember, has stuck his/her hand in things back in the first book )resurrects Rand.

Yet another possibility is that Rand isn't the Dragon; Lews Therin is, still. Rand's just sorta been along for the ride. Yet, at the last battle, he switches places with Ish, leaving LTT behind in his old body with Ish. Avila, seeing the opening, nukes them both. In fact, the more I think about this, the more likely I think it is.

20

JakOShadows: 2008-05-08

i don't think it is logical for the DO to bring Rand back to life. Remember, if the Rand dies the DO will eventually gain control. I do think there is a plot to use Rand somehow to speed the process up, but the DO would rather have him dead than to bring him back to life. Now as for the creator, I think he might lend a helping hand. But has anyone thought a situation like what happened to Mat, or even his heart stopping would be considered death. And then after that he is brought back to life. I don't think there has to be any switching of bodies at all for the prophecies to be true.

21

Daes daemar: 2008-09-16

I'm new to this sight, but i've been reading the books for a while. Here's my twist on your theory... There is a connection between Rand and Moridin and the LB. In the previous books it's been mentioned how most of the forsaken are jealous of Rand because the Dark One wanted to make him Nae'blis. However we know that Moridin is now NB and content to keep his position as such. This will lead him to attack Rand early on in the first book, and leave Rand almost finished and dying (thus the blind beggar). Eventually Rand dies and the DO is upset at Moridin for killing the future NB. The DO brings back Rand (who will have gotten rid of LTT by dying) and rips Moridin's soul out of his body so that Rand can possess it. However this still won't bring Rand over to the shadow and thus the Last Battle will ensue.

22

terez: 2008-09-22

That doesn't fulfill Min's viewing about the seeming to merge thing, and it also makes the whole plotline sort of pointless. Obviously something significant will come out of the link between Rand and Moridin.

23

Melchoir: 2008-09-25

A few thoughts. Someone said that the only way we have seen someone die and come back is through the intervention of a higher power. This is not correct. Briggette came back by being ripped from the pattern. She also now worries about what happens to Gaidal Cain now that she isn't bound to him. In the early books, it was said that the DO was trying to break the wheel. If he tried doing this by ripping the dragon from the pattern, then Rand could come back that way. Rand dies, is called back by the Horn, and is ripped out. This seems to satisfy the prophecies, but I do not believe that it will happen this way. As for the Moridin merger, my only positive thought in this matter is that from day one, the DO has been trying to use/convert the dragon. The one time it was different and he put a kill order on Rand was when he cleansed the source. Apart from that, he could have sent someone to kill Rand easily in the first several books. (and not the jokers that were sent, but slayer or Demandred, gate in, balefire, gate out.) My personal belief is the Nynaeve res theory. First, yes, Rand will live. There are too many references to "the 3 in the boat, and the one who is dead yet lives." "To live you must die" might be viewed as he might be reincarnated later and so live, but the boat image is pretty clear. Also, there are too many references to Nynaeve not being satisifed until she heals someone 3 days dead to be coincidence.

24

terez: 2008-10-05

There is only one reference to Nynaeve Healing someone three days dead, and there are several references to Nynaeve herself saying that death can't be Healed. She didn't accept that it was true for severing, but she accepts that it is true for death. Also, the boat passage means nothing other than that Rand's harem are gathering around his body. He's dead, yet as Birgitte said, Heroes are not dead like others are dead, so Rand "yet lives".

25

Melchoir: 2008-10-07

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. It seems far more likely to me that references like "to live, you must die" and "the one who is dead, yet lives" mean that Rand in some way physically lives. As the Dragon is reincarnated again and again, and will eventually be respun as some form of Lews Therin and then as Rand himself, it seems kinda pointless to have the prophecies mean that he just lives on spiritually and will eventually be spun out again. As long as the Wheel isn't broken by the DO, that is sort of a given.

26

terez: 2008-10-10

It's not pointless, because we know that his women will be able to visit him in Tel'aran'rhiod (assuming he's willing to break the precepts). If he doesn't die, making the proper sacrifice, then the Dark One will break the Wheel and no one will be reborn again, so the only way Rand can live on even in this fashion is to die.

27

77jester: 2008-10-16

Sorry to disagree with you here Terez, but that is the epitome of pointless.

The whole point of this story being told is that it has a chance of being different from all the previous cycles of the WoT. If Rand "dies" then "lives" in TaR, nothing has changed. The Dragon has been battling, dying, awaiting rebirth, born, battling for many many cycles of the wheel. In order for Min's visions and Egwene's dreams to not be pointless some process has to change. Whether that is Nynaeve ressurecting Rand, or Rand and Moridan changing/merging bodies, or some other method, him being reborn in TaR and breaking the precepts don't fit all the details.

28

terez: 2008-10-20

How does it not fit the details? That's easy enough to say, but much harder to substantiate. That death will be Healed is highly unlikely. That a body-swap would fulfill the requirement of Rand's death makes no sense, because it doesn't involve him dying. Faking his death certainly wouldn't meet that requirement. Don't apologize for your opinions, but back them up with something. :)

29

77jester: 2008-10-21

Actually I wasn't promoting a theory on what will happen, at least I didn't mean to. I simply meant that by him being reborn back into TaR to fulfill the dreams/visions is not a viable option. First off when he went to the Finns He asked "How can I win the last battle and Live?" then they gave him the cryptic answer "to live you must die."

Just think about this logically. If he didn't ask this question what were his options?

1. Win the battle and Die in the process. Await rebirth in TaR. rinse, gargle, repeat...

2. Lose the Last Battle, Die. The Dark One remakes the world etc...

3. Get turned before the Last Battle, Dark One remakes the world...

So far according to Herid Fel #1 has been repeating itself for millenia, as long as the wheel keeps turning. But now Rand introduced a 4th option by asking the Finns what he did. It wasn't until after he heard the answer, that we started getting the "Rand lives" viewings and dreams.

I was agreeing with Melchoir, your option of living in TaR renders the "new" visions/dreams and the Finn's answer pointless, since he already had that option before he asked the question.

As far as backing up my opinions with quotes, while I respect all the effort that most people here have put into this site, I'm not skilled enough with a computer to understand how to use the quote tools provided, and I don't have a lawyers knowledge of where they are in each book/chapter. So for now you'll just have to accept my opinion as a hypothesis instead of a theory. Or not, I'm okay with being obscure. I just wanted to post to let Melchoir know he wasn't alone in that "pointless" opinion.

Right now I'm leaning towards the idea that Rand will "die" before TG starts, and the battle will be decided by the other heroes of the story instead of the dragon/fischer, ie: Logain, Mat, Perrin, Egwene, etc... I don't have a how worked out yet, but if one of you does feel free to run with it.

30

Marie Curie 7: 2008-10-22



77jester:
"The whole point of this story being told is that it has a chance of being different from all the previous cycles of the WoT. If Rand "dies" then "lives" in TaR, nothing has changed. The Dragon has been battling, dying, awaiting rebirth, born, battling for many many cycles of the wheel. In order for Min's visions and Egwene's dreams to not be pointless some process has to change. Whether that is Nynaeve ressurecting Rand, or Rand and Moridan changing/merging bodies, or some other method, him being reborn in TaR and breaking the precepts don't fit all the details."

Sorry, but the whole point is not really that this time has a chance of being different from all the previous Turnings of the Wheel. In fact, RJ suggested totally the opposite, that this Turning is nothing special; it's not really different from any other Turning:

-------------
Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his age that makes it special?

RJ: No... every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.
-------------


31

Katifer Gaidin: 2008-10-31

Heres an idea... maybe in every age, or at least every 3rd age, the DO has planned to kill the great serpent and smash the wheel. only, nobody's ever written down his motives, so people in the next age never knew and when he tried it again, it seemed like a new horrifying thing, when really it has been going on since time without mind.

32

Dragons Shadow: 2009-04-30

I always thought that Rand would die on Shayol Ghul and his soul would go to TAR as other Heros. Nyn would then physically take his body after into TAR and perform the healing there. Using both healing and the reality bending properties of TAR reunite his living soul with his dead flesh then healing him of his mortal wounds. before he returns, after three days, to the "real world". The resurrection after three days is necessary to complete the Christ imagery that the rest of the books build up.I submit for consideration that Rand would die on Shayol Ghul and his soul would go to TAR as other Heros. Nyn would then physically take his body into TAR and perform the healing there. Using both healing and the reality bending properties of TAR reunite his living soul with his dead flesh. Then healing him of his mortal wounds, before he returns, after three days, to the "real world". The resurrection after three days is necessary to complete the Christ imagery that the rest of the books build up. Just a thought. I have been away from Theoryland for a long time and have not seen this possibility discussed.

33

Dragons Shadow: 2009-04-30

I submit for consideration that Rand would die on Shayol Ghul and his soul would go to TAR as other Heros. Nyn would then physically take his body into TAR and perform the healing there. Using both healing and the reality bending properties of TAR reunite his living soul with his dead flesh. Then healing him of his mortal wounds, before he returns, after three days, to the "real world". The resurrection after three days is necessary to complete the Christ imagery that the rest of the books build up. Just a thought. I have been away from Theoryland for a long time and have not seen this possibility discussed.

34

DragonSlayer: 2009-07-06

1) I honestly think "To Live, You Must Die" is refering to LTT finally dying during TG and getting his peace of mind, and Rand continues his live with only his thoughts in his head, and sane because Sadin has been cleansed.

2) I also beleive that Rands body will be totally healed, because it has already been stated that in the AOL, anything could be healed short of death. They just havent rediscovered it yet.

3) The Path Of Daggers, Chapter 15, Stronger Then Written Law, Page 308: "Rand, wearing different masks, until suddenly one of those false faces was no longer a mask, but him."

I think this refers to LTT taking over Rands body to go to TG "in all his glory". Thus stating back to #1.

35

Belalan: 2009-08-31

In response to other comments, It is noted that Lord Luc and Isam now inhabit the same body. It is as yet unknown if only one controls the other, or whether they both have some measure of control.

36

chroni100: 2010-08-20

I think this theory is spot on. It fits with all the viewings and is probably the "true" last battle. It seems to me that the Dark One needs Rand to complete his victory, the final fight is to have Moridin take over Rand. Also, Aviendha's quadruplets are from Rand in Moridin's body which is what makes it odd.

37

IamChosen: 2011-03-29

To ressurect this thread, I just wanted to point out that Rand and Aviendha's son Alarch in ToM Ch.49 has his looks and dark hair from his wetlander side.

Considering Tigraine was red-headed and so was Janduin, and Rand was very Aiel-like... well, either Aviendha cheated on Rand with Mat, or Rand found himself some dark hair...

38

AuroraBrown: 2011-03-30

You don't need either or your parents to have dark hair to have dark hair yourself. I'm assuming genetics work the same way in WOT. Despite the low levels of Eumelanin blonde hair genes provide (Tigraine had "golden hair", not red, so that's blonde) and red being a genetically abnormal Mcr1, they both require a certain threshold of pigment expression to be inherited and even so allow for brown or dark hair to come through eventually, and considering Tigraine's family further up presumably had darker shades as we can see this from the rest of the royal family, it's even more likely that these could come through after a couple of generations. In fact, it actually genetically makes more sense for dark hair to be present than red hair under these circumstances. It also allows for the occasional dark hair to come through in the Aiel such as the Wise One who keeps playing with her hair because it's unusual being dark, whose name I forgot right now. This is pretty basic genetics, so no need for Aviendha to cheat on Rand. :)

I personally think the "oddity" in the Aviendha's children that Min sees is the fact that they can Channel from the moment they are born, which isn't usually the case as even Aes Sedai and Asha'man with the spark start Channeling when they are around 15 or maybe a bit younger without knowing while these kids Channel as if using an arm and have had their full power from birth. I have several ideas as to why this might have happened (the multi-link with a non- channeler Min or/ and something that will happen to Aviendha in the Waste/ the Three Fold Land while she thinks about what she has seen etc but this should find a place in its own theory somewhere).

I find the balefire option most likely, especially considering the fact that the "die to live" information for Rand is from the same source as the "die to live" for Mat, which was fulfilled when Mat was killed by Rahvin yet resurected when Rand balefired Rahvin. I can see the paralleels there, even in the wording used. This would merely be the practical side, I do think there's a lot more to it on a grander scale. I think we have to remember that so far the prophecies have all been quite matter of fact, concrete and detailed rather than grand and philosophical, so even if I do think the battle happens with every turn of the Wheel of Time and there are philosophical issues to be discussed, I don't think it is what is referred to in the prophecies. Rand will die and live, not in a philosophical but in a concrete way. There are definite hints that there are possibilities (Luc/Isam - Birgitte/ Tel'aran'rhiod etc).

39

ChubbyAiel: 2011-03-31

Aurorabrown,
Is it not the case that lighter hair tends to be genetically recessive, while darker hair tends to be more dominant in a genetic sense, just like eye colour? That's not to say it's impossible for fairer people to have dark haired off-spring, but it is less likely.

Aside from that (which is incidental), we have the fact that no one knew anything about Rand's Wetlander side apart from his mother's name and her identity as the former Daughter-Heir of Andor. The blood-relatives of Rand mentioned are Galad and Luc. Galad has dark hair because of his father (unrelated to Rand) while Luc is fair, if I remember correctly. Anyway, if Rand's mother was known to be fair, why would Aviendha's children have got their dark hair from their Wetlander side? As you say, there is a dark-haired Wise One and if dark hair can skip generations in the west, so can it in the Waste. Therefore, Aviendha's children could have got dark hair from either side, couldn't they?

I would think the Aiel would need a specific reason to think those children had got their dark hair "from their Wetlander side".

40

Oden: 2011-03-31

I say that the hair colour came from both Rand and Aviendha. If the dark hair gene is recessive then the dominant fair must be absent and the only way for that to be is if none of Aviendha or Rand contributed the fair hair gene hence both have the gene for dark hair.

41

Elanor: 2011-03-31

We have seen "on screen" at least one other blood relative of Rand's: Perival, High Seat of House Mantear, which was the House of Tigraine. Although it is not clear how closely related they are, it seems logical to assume they are cousins of sort. In CoT, chapter 13, Perival is described as being a "pretty, golden-haired boy" (p.388, paperback edition). His uncle Willin, who is is guardian, must also be Rand's relative but we are not given a description, the only information given is that he is old and bedridden (p.391) and considers Perival as his son.

Anyways, this tends to show there are more golden-haired people in Tigraine's line through her mother. However, as far as I know, we do not know who Tigraine's father was, there could be some dark-haired ones on this side of the family tree.

42

IamChosen: 2011-03-31

"You don't need either or your parents to have dark hair to have dark hair yourself."

I know that. But this is fiction, so when someone says "he's got dark hair from his father side," we shouldn't have to make a hypothetical dark-haired ancestor up. It's a minor detail in the story, except that Rand doesn't have dark hair, and neither do any of his known ancestors.

If the payoff to this is "oh, Tigraine had a dark-haired grandfather, you just never heard of him," it's kind of disappointing.

43

Letsgomets: 2011-12-01

Hi everyone, I thought I'd throw in an idea about the dark hair/Rand's wetlander side discussion. There have been several theories bandied about regarding Rand and Moridin merging, or Rand taking over Moridin's body to live, or Rand being brought back through TAR. One thing I have not seen discussed (unless I just missed it on a different thread) is the possibility that Logain's glory halo may be due to Rand's soul being placed in his body, rather than a merge/takeover of Moridin. That is, Rand dies before TG, blood on the rocks etc., his soul goes to TAR as one of the Heroes, is placed in Logain's body (mechanism irrelevant to this idea but could be discussed further), Rand/Logain leads the Light to victory over the DO. Aviendha may then somehow recognize Rand's soul even though he has Logain's body, and therefore dark haired offspring. Just a crazy thought, but I've seen crazier around here...

44

ivanbrow10: 2011-12-06

Hi all,
Long time reader, first some theorizer (word?)

I'm not going to get too involved with the genetics debate as I don't have a PHD (although gotta say it feels tenious within the greater Rand/Moridin conversation).

I just don't buy it. A transfer of souls feels very convoluted amongst the climax of such an epic series. Neither do I buy Nynaeve suddenly learning how to heal death - feels too easy and convenient.

RJ says there is nothing new about this age. It's happened a thousand times and it will happen a thousand more times. I think I'm right in saying that as this age ends we'll enter a new 'powerless' age... Seanchan will take over with their guns (Aviendha's viewing speaks of their short metal staffs or similar) and a new technology will evolve - until someone discovers OP again...

Also in amongst these viewings it says something like (sorry in work so don't have books to hand) 'since the Dragon left us'. This is obviously pretty vague BUT it feels like odd language to use if the Dragon is in fact dead (even if he's gone across to Moridin's body) [although to argue against myself the Pattern showed these viewings to Aviendha for a reason - so she probably will stop them from happening].

I like the idea that Rand saves the world (and time) but now knows that for his own peace to last - he must depart. It's truly heroic. How it fits into 'to live you must die' I'm not sure.

I agree that the prophesies in the WoT are generally quite literal. I would be very surprised if it became a 'Christ-like' resurrection as that feels like it's been done thousands of times. BTW the balefire option works but because we've seen it before I don't believe RJ would use it as a device to fulfill the single biggest question we've all been asking since EotW...

I wonder... LTT deserves to kill Moridin/Ish - Rand may lose control/give it over when that dual occurs. LTT Kills Moridin and leaves Rand - revenge has been sweet and he's not at peace. The seals are broken but then (maybe from a clue from Lanfear - who's turned after being saved) Rand realises he has to close the prison from the inside as a circle closes it from the outside. By going into this 'other' world where the DO and the Creator exist - Rand's on another plain... It's now at the end that the Creator grants Rand grace - and sends him back to the real world - to live out his days in peace. He dies by going to Hell. And then returns - having conquered death (using Christian terms I know!)

This post has been quite rambling - sorry about that.

45

Lorcin: 2011-12-14

@IVANBROW10 that actualy makes sense (in a really weird way but still) after all the dark one does get all of the souls of the dead but people still get reborn time and time again.

I'll come up with more reasons why when I've had more time to think about it.