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he Shadar Logoth Dagger is an Angreal, Source of the SL Evil

by Darkelve: 2005-12-16 | 3.94 out of 10 (16 votes)

Recent Categories: The Evil of Shadar Logoth

1. Aginor as well as Mordeth refer to the dagger when talking about SL:

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 50 - Meetings at the Eye

"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing", an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 28 - Letters

Padan Fain sat with his feet up on a hassock, studying the beauty of new-breaking sunlight glittering on the curved blade of the dagger that he turned over and over in his hands. Carrying it at his belt was not enough; from time to time he simply had to handle it. The large ruby set in the pommel shone with a deep malevolence. The dagger was part of him, or he of it. "The dagger was part of Aridhol, what men called Shadar Logoth, but then, he was part of Aridhol too. Or it was part of him". He was quite mad and knew it very well, but being mad, he did not care. Sunlight gleamed on steel, steel more deadly now than any made at Thakan'dar."

The old thing is the dagger. The old friend could be Mordeth, The old enemy could be the people of Aridhol.

2. The ruby is the 'focal' point, which 'catches'/absorbs the light; in the following fragments you can see the knife, more specifically the ruby, actually *doing* something, that is, absorbing the light. So it *behaves* like an Angreal.

CHAPTER: 19 - Beneath the Dagger

How could I forget? He left the chest as it was and pulled the dagger from his belt. The bare blade curved like a horn, and the quillons were golden serpents. Set in the hilt, a ruby as big as his thumbnail winked like an evil eye in the moonlight. Ornate as it was, tainted as he knew it was, it felt no different from any other knife.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 45 - Blademaster

"Painted screens hid all the walls and any other doors, and veiled the light coming through windows that had to overlook the street. At one end of the big room stood a tall, circular cabinet. At the other was a small table, the lone chair on the carpet turned to face it. Rand heard Ingtar gasp, but he only felt like heaving a sigh of relief. The curling golden Horn of Valere sat on a stand on the table. Below it, *the ruby in the hilt of the ornate dagger caught the light*.

TITLE: Dragon Reborn, CHAPTER: 18 - Healing

The square room within was spacious, its pale stone walls bare. The only furnishing was a long stone table draped with a white cloth, in the middle of the room. Mat lay on that table, fully clothed save for coat and boots, eyes closed and face so gaunt that Egwene wanted to cry. His labored breathing made a hoarse whistle. The Shadar Logoth dagger hung sheathed at his belt, *the ruby capping its hilt seeming to gather light, so it glowed like some fierce red eye despite the illumination of a dozen lamps, magnified by the pale walls and white-tiled floor."

TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 33 - Blue Carp Street

The torment tearing at Rand faded to mere throbbing as Fain vanished from the room, but he followed cautiously even so. At the doorway, though, he saw that Fain was not trying to hide. The man stood waiting for him at the head of stairs leading down, the curved dagger in one hand. *The large ruby capping the hilt glittered, catching the light of the lamps set on tables about the windowless room*. As soon as Rand stepped into the room, fire and ice raged in his side till he could feel his heart shuddering. Staying upright was an effort of iron will. Taking a step forward made that effort seem pale, but he took that step, and the next.

3. The dagger attracts 'evil', and through this attraction the person wielding it is somehow able to recognize Darkfriends:

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 33 - The Dark Waits

Rand was beginning to tense when Mat growled, "Darkfriend."

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 33 - The Dark Waits

"Time to go, Mat," he said, and held his breath. As Mat started to stand, he pulled Paitr's eyes to himself by leaning forward and saying, "Leave us alone, Darkfriend. I won't tell you again. Leave-us-alone."

TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 33 - The Dark Waits

"She tried to kill me, Rand. She'd have killed you, too. She's a Darkfriend." Mat spat the word.

4. The dagger can actually *destroy* evil coming from the D.O., but at a heavy price: the evil is formed into a new kind of evil, an evil as dangerous for the Light as for the Dark. You might compare this with burning poisonous substance on a heavy fire; the poisonous substance is destroyed, but gives birth to a substance ALMOST as harmful.

TITLE: Great Hunt, CHAPTER: 3 - Friends and Enemies

"Better than when I'm losing," Mat said with a laugh. Unconsciously he touched his coat at the waist, and Rand winced. Mat had a dagger with a ruby in its hilt under there, a dagger he was never without, a dagger he could not be without. It was a tainted blade, from the dead city of Shadar Logoth, tainted and twisted by an evil almost as bad as the Dark One, the evil that had killed Shadar Logoth two thousand years before, yet still lived among the abandoned ruins. That taint would kill Mat if he kept the dagger; it would kill him even faster if he put it aside. "You'll have another chance to win it back." Wry snorts from the kneeling men indicated they did not think there was much chance of that.

TITLE: Winter's Heart, CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

The gateway he wove did not open into the ruined city of Shadar Logoth itself, but to a thinly wooded, uneven hilltop a few miles to the north, where the horse hooves rang on sparse, stony soil that had stunted the leafless trees, and ragged patches of snow covered the ground. As Rand dismounted, his eye was caught by distant glimpses of the place once called Aridhol showing above the trees, towers that ended abruptly in jagged stone, and white onion-shaped domes that could have sheltered a village had they been whole. He did not look for long. Despite the clear morning sky, those pale domes failed to gleam as they should, as if something cast a shadow over the sprawling ruin. Even at this distance from the city, the second never-healing wound in his side had begun to throb faintly. The slash given by Padan Fain's dagger, the dagger that had come from Shadar Logoth, did not beat together with the pulsing of the larger wound it cut across, but rather against it, alternating."

Through the previous quotes, I think that the dagger is an angreal gone bad. My theory is that this angreal was created by the people of Aridhol in order to be able to defeat the DO and that it attracts evil in order to be able to consume it. However, the effect was that the evil changes in form, but remained evil in nature, hence the evil from Shadar Logoth. Sort of like a miasma affecting or rather, infecting, everything around it.

This evil is what was eating at Mat's memories and what gives Fain (some) of his wacky powers.

Mordeth had to wait for someone to take him to the edge of SL because the power of the Madashar is weakest there and there he could use the body of a person as a vessel. He feels 'complete' with the dagger because it destroys or at least suppresses the DO evil part in him, so that Mordeth can gain control.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2006-02-11

Darkelve, you have posed a very interesting idea. I think you may be right about one thing, but wrong about the other. The books seem clear that Mordeth and his treachery was what led to such evil, and that anything, even a pebble (I think Moiraine suggests), is just as tainted as the knife, but I will leave those quotes to others that respond. Regarding the dagger itself, I think you may be on to something. I never considered the dagger more than a tainted dagger, but Fain certainly seems more powerful with the dagger, able to do many things with it that he seemed otherwise unable to do. I think focusing on that portion of the theory is your best bet. In all of my years, I have not seen this theory from what I recall, that the dagger is a ter'angreal. Interesting idea, and well described. Thank you for spending time pulling your pertinent quotes and putting together a reasonable idea.

2

Traveller: 2006-02-11

"The old thing is the dagger. The old friend could be Mordeth, The old enemy could be the people of Aridhol."

Mordeth was never a friend of the Dark- Mordeth/Mashadar is just as deadly to trollocs etc as to Rand as his friends, and in tEotW, we are told how the myrdraal had to forse the trollocs to go in, and the myrdraal would have had to be forced by something. I don't think that Aginor would describe Mordeth as a friend.

The taint of the dagger and everything in Shadar Logoth is completely different to the evil of the Dark (so much so that Rand uses it to destroy the taint), so i believe that it gives Fain powers, because he is actually free to use the powers given to him by the Dark (some perhaps unknowingly) and he is kind of free from the DO when he has the dagger.

Also, I think you could be looking too far into the descriptions of the dagger; call it being over dramatic. i reckon Jordan is just being a good author in making the actual object seem more evil/deadly by describing it as glittering and catching the light as he does.

I think what you say about Mat's memories and how fain is affected are true, but it is unlikely that the ruby is an angreal, just based on the fact that it is described as looking kinda evil, and then Rand and Mat being followed by DFs, which could be explained by many things like Ta'verenness.

3

JakOShadows: 2006-02-11

Traveller:

Moraine did say that the evil of shadar logoth can be sensed by df's. So its not just being ta'veren, but they were following the evil of shadar or logoth or it was attracting their attention. I don't have my books with me, but it was in the chapter when Moiraine first sees Mat in Caemlyn and tries a bit of healing.

4

Callandor: 2006-02-11

**2. The ruby is the 'focal' point, which 'catches'/absorbs the light; in the following fragments you can see the knife, more specifically the ruby, actually *doing* something, that is, absorbing the light. So it *behaves* like an Angreal.**

Jordan has said in his blog that the ruby is just a ruby (I'd quote it for you, but his blog has been down due to Dragonmount upgrades).

**3. The dagger attracts 'evil', and through this attraction the person wielding it is somehow able to recognize Darkfriends:**

Jordan explained this before, and it related to your first point. Things of the Shadow and the Dagger create a resonance (like with Shadar Logoth and the taint when Rand is there); Shadowspawn, and the Forsaken, can follow this resonance.

And Mat was more or less guessing, but I mean, c'mon, Paitr was a picture perfect Darkfriend and admitted it before Rand and Mat left him. And the woman who tried to stab Mat would of course be taken by him to be a Darkfriend (the dagger she carried is really all that is needed).

As far as we know there isn't any inherant property of the dagger that allows for this knowledge -- on the contrary, it seems only Fain due to his past can do this.

**Through the previous quotes, I think that the dagger is an angreal gone bad.**

It doesn't showcase any properties of an angreal. I could possibly see the case for a ter'angreal -- but even that doesn't ring true, since as far as we know it does nothing with the Power. The properties of the dagger seem to stem from it being from the Shadar Logoth evil, and that evil's relation to the Shadow which is pretty much known.

5

Lord of the Dawn: 2006-02-12

I don't see how this could affect the story though. I mean, there's just no real proof to support Aridhol creating it to stop evil, and I don't think it really matters whether it is an angreal or not.

And wouldn't it be ter'angreal? An angreal increases channeling power, whereas a ter'angreal does a specific action when activated. I think the dagger, if actually a ter'angreal, would fall under that category.

6

Khazhul: 2006-02-14

Just a few things I'd like to add here. Can't say I'm for or against this theory but it brings up some interesting ideas.

**TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: 50 - Meetings at the Eye

"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing", an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak.**

Wasn't the rise of Aridhol and eventual fall into Shadar Logoth after the sealing of the bore? I don't see how Aginor would recognize SL as an old enemy since he never faced it. Ishamel possibly. He could have followed the dagger though.

I'm not sure if the dagger is an angreal but if it is, I don't think it was made by Aridhol. It could possibly be a ter'angreal that just happened to be in Aridhol during it's fall and the 'evil' that infected the city corrupted it.

7

Ashaman Zach: 2006-02-15

The dagger is NOT an Angreal, Ter'Angreal, or anything other than a dagger.

The dagger was created in Aridhol. Then the city destroyed itself from suspicion due to Mordeth. DURING THIS TIME EVERYTHING IN ARIDHOL WAS TAINTED. Moiraine said that everything was tainted, every rock. If mat had put a pebble in his pocket the same thing would have happend.

The reason Fain wanted it was because he IS mordeth now. He is one with the taint that killed Aridhol, and THE DAGGER IS THE ONLY THING FROM ARIDHOL THAT IS OUTSIDE OF SHADAR LOGOTH. This is the reason Fain needed the dagger, and why he feels one and complete when he has it. It is infected with the same taint as he is.

As for the ruby and it "catching the light"... have you ever seen a ruby??!! Thats what gems do, they reflect lights and make pretty colors. thats what they do. You are reading way too much into a simple description of what any ruby should be expected to do.

And thats all for now

8

Ashaman Zach: 2006-02-15

Oh, and one more thing, this goes with the whole fain wanting the dagger...

Shadar Logoth is destroyed now. It no longer exists. So the only thing in Randland that has the taint of SL is the dagger.(and i suppose Fain)

Of course Fain wants it, it is the only thing left on earth that is tainted like he is.

The reason he seems more powerful with it is beacause he is one and complete with it.

And thats all for now...

9

haertchen: 2006-02-15

***********************************

"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing", an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak.

**************************************

This is interesting. The only way I can imagine it being described that way is if something similar had existed in the AoL (or within the AoL's memory).

Were there people in the AoL who fought the shadow with techniques as black as the shadow, they became evil? We may never know. But it sure sounds like it.

If they were, I think we can assume it was destroyed. The breaking would be a good time, although it's possible it was before. After all, both the Light and Shadow would have motive to do it.

10

JakOShadows: 2006-02-16

The taint of the blade is from Aridhol, so now, I don't think it existed in the AoL. It wouldn't be that hard for someone to figure they went through Aridhol, which is tainted, and be able to connect that feeling with a person they encounter and be able to follow it. Plus, the two types of evil resonate, so they would be drawn to it anyways, even if they didn't know. In short, it didn't have to exist in the AoL for a forsaken to know how to follow it and make use of the taint.

11

Callandor: 2006-02-16

**Wasn't the rise of Aridhol and eventual fall into Shadar Logoth after the sealing of the bore? I don't see how Aginor would recognize SL as an old enemy since he never faced it. Ishamel possibly. He could have followed the dagger though.**

Remember, Aginor and Bathamel were trapped as less than ghosts for the time of the 3rd Age; always seeing but unable to interact. To them, it could be easily an old enemy/"friend" because they are probably the Forsaken with the most knowledge of the 3rd Age (even arguably more than Ishamael).

**The reason Fain wanted it was because he IS mordeth now. He is one with the taint that killed Aridhol, and THE DAGGER IS THE ONLY THING FROM ARIDHOL THAT IS OUTSIDE OF SHADAR LOGOTH. This is the reason Fain needed the dagger, and why he feels one and complete when he has it. It is infected with the same taint as he is.**

He's not Mordeth; he's still majorily Padan Fain. But his soul (personality might be better) and Mordeth's soul (personality) have, for lack of good terms, merged together. He would still have a desire to want the dagger, but he's not completely Mordeth.

**This is interesting. The only way I can imagine it being described that way is if something similar had existed in the AoL (or within the AoL's memory).

Were there people in the AoL who fought the shadow with techniques as black as the shadow, they became evil? We may never know. But it sure sounds like it.**

Jordan has alluded to the fact that the Shadar Logoth evil is unique to this Age.

12

Khazhul: 2006-02-17

I agree that he could follow it, I guess I didn't explain that well enough. What I didn't agree with was that Aginor recognized the dagger as an 'old' enemy. How could he since he was sealed away and unaware of Aridhol and Shadar Logoth until he was just awakened?

13

Traveller: 2006-02-18

Ashaman Zach:

"Shadar Logoth is destroyed now. It no longer exists. So the only thing in Randland that has the taint of SL is the dagger.(and i suppose Fain)"

In answer to this I think you'are thinking along the wrong lines:

It is not that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed along with its evil, simply leaving two thing that contain its evil outside; The PRISON that CONTAINED this evil is destroyed, so those two bits that are free in the world are corrupting everything around them (remember Verin's pondering as to how long it would take for the whole of the land to be tainted), without anywhere they can go to, to lock them away- they can now only be destroyed, and we don't know how eaasy that will be.

Sorry, this really was quite a random thing, but Rand really has destroyed the prison that they could have been locked in. I'm not saying it's not for the best in the long run, but that it isn't as good as it might seem at first glance.

Now I just have to wait for everyone to flame me!

14

haertchen: 2006-02-18

***************************************

Jordan has alluded to the fact that the Shadar Logoth evil is unique to this Age.

***************************************

Unique to this age, meaning that it only happens in the third age (the only age where the shadow is available to be emulated, in my opinion at least) or that it only happened on this turning? I.e. Is it one of the periodic things or a new thing in the pattern? (Fain himself being a new thing in the pattern, this wouldn't be without precedent.)

Also, I have to back off my old statement. Aginor was aware of the world while he was sealed away, as Callandor noted. His references could actually be to what he saw in the world; its possible he actually understands Shadar Logoth better than any of the fully living contemporaries did.

Still, though, I can't shake the impression that it's older than that. I get the feeling of a long-standing relationship between the Shadow and Shadar-Logothesque evil. Just a feeling, though, so I won't try to prove it.

15

tworiverswoman: 2006-02-18

Quote: “He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing", an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak. “

Darkelve:

“The old thing is the dagger. The old friend could be Mordeth, The old enemy could be the people of Aridhol.”

I disagree with the basic premise here. I felt that all three words merely described the taint on Mat. The taint ITSELF is what they followed – not the dagger or the ruby, and not really even Mat. He was just the “vehicle” for the taint of Shadar Logoth.

As for calling the taint “an old friend” – this is just blather designed to create tension and mistrust among the good guys. Aginor and Balthamel were held at the “edge” of the bore, aware of the world but unable to touch it in any way. Able to “watch” the rise and fall of Aridhol, of the Trolloc Wars, of the Hundred-Year War – to watch Ishamael playing his periodic games. (God, how frustrating THAT must have been.)

A quote from the WOTFAQ about Fain: “Normally, Mordeth would just destroy the existing "soul/personality", but Padan Fain's having been "remade" by the DO seems to have changed things sufficiently so that there was a slow gradual merging of all of the different personalities (Fain/Mordeth/DO's imprint). The most accurate term for the combination is the name that he took: Ordeith. Over time, the Mordeth portion has gained more and more control over the gestalt. The DO's imprint has given Ordeith the unreasoning hatred of Rand, Perrin, and Mat…Note that Fain is now calling himself "Mordeth," which suggests that the Mordeth part is dominating.”

So, Fain is in there somewhere, but I think he isn’t particulary “on top.” His accent changes constantly, reflecting which personality is in charge at any particular moment. His craving for the dagger always reminds me of a youngster’s need for his “security blanket” (NASTY youngster). It soothes him, just by carrying part of the taint – a touchstone from home, if you will.

The quotes in your theory are interesting, but you’ve placed too much emphasis on them. Aside from bearing the taint, and being so incredibly lethal, the dagger doesn’t seem to have any characteristics in common with any angreal, or ter’angreal. The ruby glitters because rubys do glitter. As for the ability to recognize darkfriends, Padan Fain remarks on this specifically as an ability he has developed fairly recently, but I have to agree with the other posters above that Mat was operating on the basis of what was right in front of him, when he ID’d darkfriends. They were not all that well concealed, since even we readers could see what they were.

So, all in all – another theory I’m voting down.

16

Callandor: 2006-02-19

**It is not that Shadar Logoth has been destroyed along with its evil, simply leaving two thing that contain its evil outside; The PRISON that CONTAINED this evil is destroyed, so those two bits that are free in the world are corrupting everything around them (remember Verin's pondering as to how long it would take for the whole of the land to be tainted), without anywhere they can go to, to lock them away- they can now only be destroyed, and we don't know how eaasy that will be.**

No, Fain, the Dagger, and Mordeth had already escaped Shadar Logoth and were free to act independantly of the "center" of it's evil. Shadar Logoth is gone. It's no more. It's evil is completely gone from the planet, except in the case of Fain and the Dagger. Those are the only remaining parts of it's evil.

**Unique to this age, meaning that it only happens in the third age (the only age where the shadow is available to be emulated, in my opinion at least) or that it only happened on this turning? I.e. Is it one of the periodic things or a new thing in the pattern? (Fain himself being a new thing in the pattern, this wouldn't be without precedent.)**

Could be either or in effect both -- again, he was alluding to the fact, and was vague about it.

17

robbocop: 2006-07-27

Her's an idea that i'd like to throw out there. We all know that rand is the strongest Ta'veran since hawkwing, you altering chance and such. Perhaps we have to give Mat a little more credit though and also Aginor and Balthemel a bit more credit. Out of all the forsaken we know the least about these two and their abilities/ Talents. And to add something to it, perhaps each Ta'veran has an authentic code for each one. There may be proof for this code in that Birgitte always knows who Gaidal Cane is and says, after being ripped from T'a'r and after Gaidal's rebirth, that she would know him when she found him. It seems that all the legendary heroes of the horn are Ta'veran. I justify this by the chapter in book 1: The Grave Is No Bar To My Call, Hawkwing calls rand Lews Therin. He knows him but was not alive in his time to meet him. Also he says: "I have fought by your side times beyond number, lews therin and faced you as many more" and: "I know you if you do not know yourself". So obviously lews therin has been spun out of T'a'r tones of times because I hardly think they would be doing battle in the world of dreams. But I have gotten off point( I fear I'm getting as bad as an ogier). Though LTT is in Rand's body the heroes recognised him. Where Mat falls into the puzzle is this. He is Ta'veran. He is a heroe bound to the wheel and at this point in time is Mat. His memories from the finn are his from previous turnings of the wheel. During his earliest turning he had known Aginor before the bore and was a friend. He knew Aginor after the bore and was an enemy.This makes him old. Really old. I make the suggestion that Aginor has the talent to sense Ta'veran and recognised his authentic code. He would have felt Rand to but due to his past association with Mat, had zoned in on his because it was more familiar than Rand's and easier to stick to.

Last but not least, I make the suggestion that Mat is almost or as strong as Rand when it comes to being Ta'veren. I base this on: The pattern needs him to stay alive so badly that it gives him every possible aid (luck with gambling, women and fights). The fact that the pattern chose him to blow the horn. The amount of times the pattern has needed to use him (so many memories!). I say Perrin is an average to low strength Ta'veren. Sure he effects things but he usually has to act before anything happens. Mat and Randjust need to be present.

So there it's got nothing to dowith that stupid dagger!