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oint by Point

by Jennifer: 1998-10-01 | Not yet rated

Before Winter's Heart - Archive Only: What is Verin's 70 Year Plan?

To start with, I believe that Verin is basically a good person. In other words, I do not believe that she is BA or plotting AGAINST Rand. Point by point:

1) Verin lied to Ingtar about Moiraine sending her. Both Moiraine and Verin's statements can be true. All it requires is a misperception of events. Imagine, Moraine and Verin are sitting around a Moraine says something like "I wish that I hadn't had to leave that boy alone. He's not ready for the world yet." Verin assumes that Moiraine is asking her to go look after him while she is doing no such thing. In fact, she wants Rand to believe that he is free so the last thing that she wants is for Verin to tell him that she sent her. Both are truthful.

2) Verin was talking to Barthanes (known Dark Friend) at the reception. I have to agree with the person who said that she was just being social. It was Barthanes's house... Don't you usually talk to your host. And wouldn't Barthanes have gotten suspicious if Verin went running off because one of her lowly servants had hurt himself?

3) Verin channeled in the Steading. I haven't read the passage in a while - could she have looked into his eyes and seen that there was no intelligence behind them? The Stedding is free from the OP (no I don't believe that any angreal would work inside one either - they utilize the OP), going off of Moggy's assumption that one who uses the TP can channel the OP - I assume that they are connected. (My assumption - but I doubt that the TP would work in the Stedding)

4) Verin told Rand the Damane would be able to feel his channeling. Nothing to back this up but it's a thought...
a) As the AS have been winnowing out male channelers since the breaking, perhaps Verin doesn't have enough experience with male channelers to know that women can't see the weaving. The problem with this is that she has been around while Rand channeled (the portal stone) so either

1) she didn't notice that she couldn't see the weaves,
2) she thought it was a fluke, or
3) she has a Talent that we haven't seen yet (seeing men's weaving).
b)Perhaps Jordan hadn't decided that male and female channelers were to be unaware of what the others did.
5) She knows about the axe and the hammer. Could this be prophecized somewhere? Verin is very well read - remember we get the Ishamael-Ba'alzamon connection from her. Or could she just be observant enough to have seen that Perrin keeps switching which one he has with him?
6)She gave Egwene the ring (so that the BA could trap her in TAR) I've always thought that she was giving Egwene any tool that she could think of to help her in her mission. Note - all of the descriptions that she gave Egwene were correct (Liandrin has described the members of the BA and they matched) if she was trying to trap her why wouldn't she give her false information?
7) She didn't give Egwene the notes about the ring. Verin's thoughts in this scene come across as protective rather than destructive. I've think that she wanted to destroy the notes because there is something very dangerous in them, but cant bring herself to do so because it would be destroying knowledge. In addition, she had scared Egwene so badly with what she did say that Eqwene didn't want to use the ring as it was. If what was in those notes was worse, she may have very well not used it. I don't know about the really old theories and the ajah within an ajah theories, both have attractions. Let me throw out one more. (Completely unsubstantiated but again - attractive.) Verin is thinking only of the future. Standing by while Alanna bonded him, putting down ties in the Two Rivers, etc, she is trying to set things up so that, if (when) he goes mad he can be controlled."

Second Post

Verin, Verin, Verin - I am obsessed with Verin. First, I do not believe that she is evil. Not in any way, shape, or form. We've seen inside her head a couple of times and she's never thinking "All Glory to the DO" or anything to make you think that she is working for DO. A couple of refutations:

1) We KNOW that a gholam killed Fel - says so in the text (Don't have it with me so I could be fabricating this out of thin air but I believe it says that no one saw the gholam as it crept into Fel's apartments or something like that) Are we know thinking that Verin is a gholam?

2) What's her name - the leader of the Salidar AS that come to see Rand says that Verin spent the same amount of time as a Novice & Accepted as she did. Her days of training at the tower are remembered.

OK, after all of that, Verin is not the slightly absent-minded, sweet old-lady that she appears to be. I think that a lot of her story hinges on her statement that "it is time to roll the dice." I believe that if we can explain why she says this particular statement (as Mat comes to live by later.) We can begin to understand her motives and who she really is. Unfortunately, I don't know why she says it. Here's a couple of thoughts though.

1) Someone said that Artur HW's motto was "It's time to roll the dice." Haven't seen it myself (he doesn't say it at Falme) so a conformation, denial would be wonderful! Theory: Verin is the daughter or a descendant of the daughter of HW, thereby making her the (gasp, choke) Do9M. (Can you IMAGINE her and Mat married. Would be poetic justice - she suggests that Siuan let him die, he hates all AS.) (The theory of the Do9M here is that she was left behind when HW family headed out to sea and they have remembered her ever since.) This is weak (the really old Verin fans might like it though). So they leave, the child (too young for anyone to know that she can channel) is left behind and spends a lot of time in some time-altering place. (TAR, with the *Finns, a vacuole) comes out enters thetower, etc.

2)There has been a lot of talk about Verin knowing about Perrin and the axe & the hammer. Perhaps this is just her knowing about Mat's luck. There is always a chance that she knows something about the tripod of Ta'vern (from Cor's notes perhaps?). Unfortunately, she later all but suggests that the Amyrlin let Mat die. If she knows how important Perrin & Mat are, why would she even think about it? Speculation: she heard Mat say that he would never betray Rand and begins to believe that he will do just that.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 1998-10-01

I think, after reading the prologue, that the thought that Verin is not 'against' Rand is more substantiated. But it does make you question one more point, did she use compulsion on Alanna to bond Rand the first time she sees him? You have made a good case for the rest.