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he DO Can Reach Beyond the Grave

by Be'lal: 1998-08-13 | Not yet rated

Before Winter's Heart - Archive Only: Who is Moridin?

Err, Ishy didn't get balefired. They saw his body, remember? And RJ himself implies that he will be back, he says in his guide that He was killed by Rand in the Stone of Tear, but the Dark one's hand can reach beyond the grave...
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 1998-08-13

Be'lal, I believe the discussion about Ishy and the DO was what true control does the DO have over the grave. This question melds together with the question as to the properties of the black cord. We have established that Ishamael's black cord was severed, does this prevent the DO from resurrecting his minion? That is where the Black Cord theory originated, remember that none of the forsaken thought it possible to be severed from the DO.

2

Darkness Incarnate: 1998-09-07

This post is actually a response to two other comments. One was that the DO can't reach beyond the grave otherwise he would just kill Rand and then resurrect them. However the DO would need Rand on his side before this After all, he would still have free will, and anyway he would not have any value to him anyway if he didn't. It is that free will and intelligence that makes the forsaken so valuable as commanders. the other response was that Beidomin is Moridin. I imagine he would have been very well known to the forsaken, after all he did help open the bore, so wouldn't he have been recognized? Anyway I think that Beidomin will turn out to be a good guy. After all who better to help close the Bore than the one who helped make it.

3

Young Bull: 1998-09-28

This may answer the question put forth by Tamyrlin regarding the restrictions on the Dark One for resurrecting people.

In the prologue of TEoTW where LTT is confronted by Ishamael, Ishy tells LTT that if he turns to the Dark One, then the Dark One will bring back Ilyena for him. I think it is safe for us to assume that Ilyena was not a Darkfriend and hence, this offer by Ishy indicates that there is no need for any connection to the Dark One for him to resurrect someone. This makes sense since what kind of "Lord of the Grave" would the Dark One be if he could only resurrect people that were "connected" with him (which appear to be only the male Forsaken i.e. protection from the taint - does anyone remember seeing the black cords on female Forsaken?).

4

Young Bull: 1998-10-05

OK, Let's assume Ishamael lies to LTT and LTT accepts his offer. First, remember that the Dark One doesn't seem to have a great deal of control over his servants (even with a mind trap Moggy throws balefire at Nynaeve against Moridin's orders). Now LTT goes with Ishy to Shayol Ghoul and asks the Dark One to bring back Ilyena. The Dark One says "Oh gee, didn't Ishy tell you, he was lying, I can't do that". At this point LTT goes berserk just like he did in the prologue of TEoTW and starts channeling. Ether the Dark One kills him (one of the Forsaken mentioned the foolishness of even holding the one power at SG) or he draws too much like he did to create Dragonmount. The end result, LTT dies. The point is that since the Dark One can't control his servants, then making empty offers is very dangerous. This has been in many stories, movies, plays, etc. where the bad guy offers something to somebody that he doesn't intend to fulfill. The only time it works is when the person accepting the offer can be controlled or eliminated. For example, the bad guy wants the combination to the safe, he tells the clerk he will share the money if he opens the safe, the clerk opens the safe and the bad guy kills the clerk. Here it works. Unfortunately, I don't think it would be very beneficial for the Dark One to have LTT dead. In summary, it just doesn't make sense for Ishy to make such an empty offer.

5

Tamyrlin: 1998-10-05

:), Okay, lets assume you are the DO. Once someone swears the Oaths to you, you then have control over them in life and in death. So does it really matter what it takes to get them to swear the Oaths. "Hey, you want eternal life don't you LTT, no taint, you would like IIyena back(show him a picture or two) remember her?" So you promise IIyena to LTT but only after he swears over to you. You control him, who cares.(We should get together and role play this one YB, I will be the DO and you can be LTT...I think we would have a pretty funny conversation.