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efinitely the Dreaming
by terez: 2005-06-18 | 6.33 out of 10 (18 votes)
Previous Categories: Who is the other person in Rand's head?
LTT most definitely came from Rand's flesh-dreaming. His presence might be influenced by the taint, or by Rand's misconceptions of the nature of his presence, but the presence came from Rand's first flesh trip into TAR, and each time Rand goes back, he becomes stronger. Not to mention the third, whom I doubt we will truly understand until October, if then.
Here are the facts:
1. Regardless of the attempts at word twisting concerning Rand's thoughts before his final battle with Ba'alzamon, LTT's unveiling occured with "And you loved power!" Lanfear was just as shocked as Rand. This occured in the Stone very shortly after Rand's first flesh dream. LTT consistently responds most often to people and situations that are familiar to his lifetime. This was the first.
2. LTT has a smattering of appearances over the next two books, during which time Rand does not enter TAR in the flesh. This is made clear when Rand vaguely recognizes the residue of Rahvin's gateway into TAR at the end of FoH.
3. We know that Rand resides in TAR in between lives. We also know that while he was there waiting to be spun out again, he had memory of his previous lives, with the most recent being the strongest.
4. We know that flesh-dreaming is dangerous to one's humanity in some way. It would make sense that Rand would be vulnerable in a unique way due to his being a Hero of the Horn.
5. Moiraine's experience in Rhuidean makes it clear that Rand was vulnerable to an overtaking by LTT as one of three possible results of his struggle with Lanfear on the docks.
6. Rand entered TAR in the flesh yet again for his battle with Rahvin. Here, he very nearly becomes Lews Therin completely, an experience that seems to have been summoned by Rand's thought that he had heard no weeping over Ilyena since he had channeled balefire. Rand assumed that Lews Therin had attacked, trying to take over. LTT's thought adamantly denied that such was the case, so Rand assumed that it had been Rahvin, somehow manipulating reality through the power of the dream. This was not the case, either. Moghedien makes this clear within the next two pages. Being in TAR in the flesh weakens one's control of the dream, and Rahvin does not know TAR as well as Moghedien. It was merely Rand's stray thoughts that brought on the struggle, and more dangerous because he was there in the flesh. Rather like the stray thoughts that cause the girls to unknowingly wear seductive clothing when they think of their men, yet so much more.
7. At the beginning of LoC, Rand reveals that LTT has been bothering him a lot more of late.
8. Also near the beginning of LoC, Rand lets slip that he has also taken to Traveling to the Dream more often, to spy on Sammael's defenses, among other things.
The foundation for this idea is lain at this point, fairly solidly. Clarity is a rare privelege from RJ, and this is just about as clear as it gets from him.
Comments
Tamyrlin: 2005-07-06
You can not attribute the entirety of Rand's ability to hear LTT's voice, to T'A'R. Many, many people visit T'A'R. I agree he is a Hero of the Horn, but is the assumption, if Birgitte during a normal life cycle for her were to enter T'A'R repeatedly, a previous Birgitte would attempt to takeover? I agree there may be a T'A'R connection, when you add in the taint. Rand, pre-taint, did not exhibit any inconsistent behavior. The taint can't be glossed over in this discussion. However, I do like the T'A'R connection. We know that other Heroes reside in T'A'R awaiting rebirth, where they have memory of all of their previous lives. Is LTT what the soul of the Dragon appears like in T'A'R? Or is their appearance, similar to anyone else, able to be changed by their thoughts too?
Garayur: 2005-07-06
I like this theory. I agree with Tamyrilin that you can't over look the other factors completely but you didn't, they are mentioned. The thing is though that when heroes of the horn are reborn, don't thier souls leave TAR? If this is true how do you defend your theory? Just another aspect to consider
Anubis: 2005-07-06
I wrote a theory a while back that could be extrapolated into this. It was basicly that the TAR in the flesh was going to make LTT more real and he was going to take over. The one time he REALLY almost took over was when Rand frought Rahvin. It was because of the something done earlier will have horrible consequences statment by RJ. You might like it.
SDog: 2005-07-06
Tamyrlin wrote:
You can not attribute the entirety of Rand's ability to hear LTT's voice, to T'A'R. Many, many people visit T'A'R. I agree he is a Hero of the Horn, but is the assumption, if Birgitte during a normal life cycle for her were to enter T'A'R repeatedly, a previous Birgitte would attempt to takeover?
But the vast majority of people don't enter TAR in the flesh. I think that's the key to this theory. Every time Rand goes to TAR, he Travels there and enters "in the flesh".
For most people, doing such a thing makes one "lose one's humanity", whatever that means. What would it do to Heroes, who reside in TAR after death?
I don't think the evidence is particularly strong in this case, but it does provide an interesting alternative to the Taint-Barrier theory.
If Terez can prove a direct link between Rand Traveling to TAR, and LTT appearing more strongly, it would be very helpful.
KaraK: 2005-07-06
in response to Tamrylin - here the difference is that Rand is entering the Dream in the Flesh - and remember when Birgitte was there she can remember her past lives, could it be that being in TAR in the flesh has the effect of breaking down the barriers between past lives? and Birgitte's are fading because she has not visited the Dream in the flesh since being ripped out and her barriers are rebuilding after a fashion?
I don't think normal dreaming has this effect - this is possible what the dangerous difference is that the Aiel Dreamwalkers refer to.
terez: 2005-07-06
The difference here is that Rand goes to TAR in the flesh. Whatever happens to him there happens to his body; he leaves no body behind. I am sure Birgitte could not go to TAR in the flesh unless someone who can channel and knows the weave takes her there. And I realize now that Rand actually did go back to TAR in the flesh during FoH; he went there as soon as Asmodean taught him to invert his weaves.
Callandor: 2005-07-06
**I'm only writing this because I cannot understand why the origin of LTT in Rand's head is still under debate.**
Because there are many viewpoints on it.
**Regardless of the attempts at word twisting concerning Rand's thoughts before his final battle with Ba'alzamon, LTT's unveiling occured with "And you loved power!" Lanfear was just as shocked as Rand. This occured in the Stone very shortly after Rand's first flesh dream. LTT consistently responds most often to people and situations that are familiar to his lifetime. This was the first.**
To be technical, it was not Lews Therin. It was Rand saying what he knew because of Lews Therin. Lews Therin wasn't "unveiled" for real, until The Fires of Heaven.
**4. We know that flesh-dreaming is dangerous to one's humanity in some way. It would make sense that Rand would be vulnerable in a unique way due to his being a Hero of the Horn.**
Not really, no. Sounds like a cheap excuse.
Rand is just like any other soul in the world. The only difference is that his soul is reborn as Hero to reaffirm the Balance of the Pattern that humanity is causing to lose that balance.
Rand and Joe Random Randlander are essentially the same: they're a soul in a body (IE: a thread in the Pattern). Rand does have a few added things to him (such as being ta'veren, but Joe Random Randlander can technically also be a ta'veren, and a channeler, but so can good ol' Joe).
Simply saying that Rand being a Hero of the Horn makes him have unique experiences from entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, sounds completely contrived.
**8. Also near the beginning of LoC, Rand lets slip that he has also taken to Traveling to the Dream more often, to spy on Sammael's defenses, among other things.**
Quotes please.
**The foundation for this idea is lain at this point, fairly solidly. Clarity is a rare privelege from RJ, and this is just about as clear as it gets from him.**
Hardly.
1. While in The Dragon Reborn, Rand does in fact enter tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh to battle Ishamael, there is also another big event going on -- Rand has Callandor. Rand having and using (and taking it more taint) from the second most powerful sa'angreal for men, is quite a big event.
2. Rand does not enter the flesh at all in The Shadow Rising (I hope that is true for the moment and I am not forgetting one occasion) -- yet again in The Fires of Heaven, there is a huge development in Lews Therin: he first appears as a voice in Rand's mind.
Your answer so far does not have an explanation for that -- the taint theory does. What happened at the end of The Shadow Rising? Rand and Asmodean were fighting of the male part of the Choedan Kal, both using half of it's output. That is a lot of taint, yet again.
Look at those two events: Rand takes and uses Callandor, taking in lots of the taint -- in the next book he first has thoughts/knowledge about a specific person's personality that he should never have known, yet does, as well as first hearing "a voice" when he calls the seeking-lightning weave (which many account to be Lews Therin possibly speaking, but it's unknown).
Then, later in The Shadow Rising, he fights over and uses half the output of the greatest sa'angreal in the world, and taking all that taint in -- and directly reactionary in the next book we have the appearance of Lews Therin for real and confirmed in Rand's head.
How strange...
3. As for the Rahvin battle -- Rand again throughout The Fires of Heaven has been using his angreal to large amounts, and especially show in the Rahvin battle -- more taint.
I'm not saying that Tel'aran'rhiod enterance in the flesh had absolutely no effect on Rand -- but I do not think it is how Lews Therin started in Rand's head. Heck, the viewpoint I support, has the taint madness, stress, emotion suppression, and the breakdown of the barrier between past and present lives giving memories the ability to cross over and be the building blocks of another personality -- if anything, I will gladly say that going into tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh was an added cause, but not the single or not the largest cause.
**Is LTT what the soul of the Dragon appears like in T'A'R? Or is their appearance, similar to anyone else, able to be changed by their thoughts too?**
I believe it would be similar to how they address each other: by their last incarnation. So, yes, for now, I would say that if Lews Therin were just hanging around in tel'aran'rhiod (not spun out in Rand), he would look like Lews Therin did in the Age of Legends. When Rand dies, and the soul returns, I would say that it would look like Rand in tel'aran'rhiod then. But that's just going off an interview question from RJ on a seperate but sort of similar topic, not any direct proof of course.
: 2005-07-07
Another point: Birgitte is not a dreamer in real life. In this life, where she has been ripped out of TAR and remembers her time between lives, if more vaguely, she does get to use the ring to go help Nynaeve, and she retains her ability to manipulate TAR. FoH ch. 54 "To Caemlyn"
"it was as easy as finding feather-dancers in Shiota. In some ways this is almost as if I were still -" Birgitte cut off with another glare for Moghedien. The silver bow reappeared in her hand, and a quiver of silver arrows at her hip, yet after one moment they vanished again. "Past is past, and the future is ahead," she said firmly. "I was not truly surprised to realize there were two of you who knew they were in Tel'aran'rhiod."
She steps easily into her role as a TAR dweller because she remembers it. Rand does not, but he picks up some of it anyway when he goes there in the flesh. He doesn't recognize LTT's memories as his own, even though he knows he is LTT reborn (how can he not when Lanfear keeps reminding him), so he sees his own memories as an aspect of taint-induced madness, rather than for what they are. He cannot accept that he and LTT are the same. That is understandable.
Also, remember that Birgitte is obviously a huge plot aspect. What is the point of Birgitte? Oh, she's cool because she's a hero out of legend; a Hero of the Horn. Birgitte has a lot to teach us about what is happening to Rand.
Birgitte: 2005-07-07
Tam, Terez wasn't talking about just normal TAR Dreaming, like anyone can do. Terez is talking about going there "in the flesh" and so far only Rand, Rahvin, Egwene, and Slayer have done that. But I'm not convinced it had much to do with LTT in Rand's head, not the first time anyway.
Yes, the first time we saw signs of LTT was after Rand's first flesh-dreaming incident, but TAR like that doesn't seem to effect anyone else. Being in TAR in the flesh might have a little to do with it, but I think it is mostly because of the taint that Rand is sharing his head with LTT's voice. Going into TAR in the flesh doesn't seem to effect anyone else at all. Rahvin wasn't effected at all, that we saw. We've had POV's of him and there wasn't anything that was even remotely close to Rand's experiences with LTT. Egwene wasn't effected at all, either. The only other person is Slayer. Its possible that some of Slayer's peculiarities came from going into TAR in the flesh, but I'm inclined to think that they were caused by the DO.
Though the more I think about it, the more I think that going your theory has some merit, but I don't think it plays as big a part as you say.
Kantuna: 2005-07-07
Tamyrlin,
"Many, many people visit T'A'R. I agree he is a Hero of the Horn, but is the assumption, if Birgitte during a normal life cycle for her were to enter T'A'R repeatedly, a previous Birgitte would attempt to takeover?"
Birgitte is the Birgitte from TAR. She was not spun out like the rest, so there is nobody there to "Take over"
I don't think this has anything to do with being a Hero of the Horn though. Maybe it's a combination of being in TAR in the flesh and the taint? How close is the DO to TAR?
Richard: 2005-07-07
Hi Terez, excellent theory! I was trying to come up with something to do with TAR on the Rand-head-voice-posts but it was never this well thought (I got the idea form a Birgitte-Mat memories post I read somewhere). I'm in. And the time line makes perfect sense as well.
As for one of Birgitte "memories" to take over... Sorry terez, couldn't resist to answer this with my own thoughts before you had the chance to give us your views. I don't think its likely. First, she will need to enter TAR in the flesh, not by dreaming. By being in the flesh she'd have left the "real world" and become part of TAR, where her soul usually recides and the one place were her experiences cover all other "lives" she's lived -- she's a hero. Second, her most recent memory should be of a mad woman -- so when she "gains" this memory she "gains" back part of that madness, after all, she she was that person, she was that mad and did not get better before she died. And third and more importantly (and on this I agree 100% with terez) she needs Rand misconceptions about the "voice". If something like that happens to the current Birgitte (assume that her previous life was a mad blonde archer), I think she would probably have some initial issues but no troubles identifying the source of the issues, and hence she would be capable of dealing with these "lapses of madness" in time.
Note that for this to happen Rand would have to be the hero who always "plays" the Dragon. As (acording to Callandor) RJ said "It (Rand's soul) is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age", this would imply that the Dragon is not a soul but a title given to an specific hero for a profetic task on a given age. I had always believed that the Dragon was a soul, but I think this makes more sense.
mako0424: 2005-07-08
I would disagree with this theory.
Mostly because it accounts so much to too little, how does LTT get into Rand's head from the Dream, and how does going back make it stronger?
but more importantly, Cadsuane mentions to Rand about the voices in his head, and i am sure she knows about these voices having caught like 5 or 6 false dragons, but more importantly, none of these false dragons went into Tel'Aran'Rhiod in the flesh i am sure, because this is advanced channeling, so where did their voices come from? I cant really explain where LTT came from, my guess is a soul-shifting of the pattern, taint, and quiter possibly something to do with the Creator to some extent.
I guess we will have to Read and find out
terez: 2005-07-11
Garayur, the soul does leave TAR - I wasn't trying to establish that LTT's soul somehow took over Rand's - only that LTT's memories became available to Rand because he was in TAR, and that Rand was not able to accept those memories as his own, fearing they were a sign of his imminent madness, and that he therefore relegated his OWN memories into an illusion of a separate being. At first, he couldn't actually address the voice in his head; every time he tried, there was only silence. He honed the skill gradually, though. Without that skill, he might not have been able to escape the box.
terez: 2005-07-11
Hey Callandor, here's the quotes you asked for:
Lord of Chaos, ch. 32 "Summoned in Haste"
"He came here sometimes, to look at Callandor. The first visit had been after Asmodean taught him to invert his weaves."
That would be toward the beginning of tFoH.
Lord of Chaos, ch. 4 "A Sense of Humor"
"As for the camps . . . He knew there were still only five; he had visited them, in a manner of speaking. There was a . . . place . . that he knew how to enter, a strange, unpeopled reflection of the real world, and he had walked the wooden walls of those massive hellforts there."
I'm pretty sure those are the the only quotes that refer to Rand entering TAR in the flesh any time other than his battle with Ba'alzamon in tDR and with Rahvin in tFoH, although he has been spotted briefly there by Perrin, Egwene, and Nynaeve, I think.
Callandor: 2005-07-11
**Note that for this to happen Rand would have to be the hero who always "plays" the Dragon. As (acording to Callandor) RJ said "It (Rand's soul) is born in other ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age", this would imply that the Dragon is not a soul but a title given to an specific hero for a profetic task on a given age. I had always believed that the Dragon was a soul, but I think this makes more sense.**
The Dragon's soul is the reference to Rand's soul. It's just the name we use for it. What humanity in the Wheel of Time call Rand and called Lews Therin (The Dragon and The Dragon Reborn) are arbitrary names -- the same for "the Last Battle."
The Dragon's soul (Rand) could be reborn and everyone in the world could quiver and fear the name of the Fred or the Fred Reborn. The name does not matter -- that is the non-Dragon incarnation that Jordan is talking about.
: 2005-07-12
Here I will attempt to address the points of debate on my theory currently posted.
I. Tamyrlin
1. "You can not attribute the entirety of Rand's ability to hear LTT's voice, to T'A'R. Many, many people visit T'A'R. I agree he is a Hero of the Horn, but is the assumption, if Birgitte during a normal life cycle for her were to enter T'A'R repeatedly, a previous Birgitte would attempt to take over?"
It is extremely unlikely that Birgitte has ever been to TAR in a previous life, especially in the flesh, and if she has, who is to say that she did not experience similar effects?
2. "I agree there may be a T'A'R connection, when you add in the taint. Rand, pre-taint, did not exhibit any inconsistent behavior. The taint can't be glossed over in this discussion."
Rand, pre-TAR, did not exhibit any outbursts of LTT, either vocally without thought or mentally. There was a good two books' worth of taint exposure before his outburst to Lanfear, including a battle with Ishamael in The Great Hunt, two uses of a portal stone, if not three, learning the use of balefire, and a strange encounter with a half-buried sa'angreal that left Lanfear uncharacteristically unsettled. Not to "gloss over" the taint; the taint affects everything Rand does, especially with the Power, to an expectable extent, including this.
3. "Is LTT what the soul of the Dragon appears like in T'A'R? Or is their appearance, similar to anyone else, able to be changed by their thoughts too?"
Birgitte tells us that she remembers all of her lives when she resides in TAR between lives, and that the most recent memories, obviously, are the strongest. Rand therefore likely saw himself as LTT in this past dwelling, and will see himself as Rand in the next. Of course he can change his appearance at will, but he has the control to keep his appearance steady.
II. Garayur
"The thing is . . . when heroes of the horn are reborn, don't their souls leave TAR? If this is true how do you defend your theory?"
LTT's (Rand's) soul is not lurking in TAR waiting to take over, but TAR is Rand's home. He is there much more than anywhere else, and is unknowingly one of a hundred or so ancient dwellers of this place, logically the most ancient of them all, and within his soul lies the knowledge he has in between lives. Going to TAR in the flesh, which has paradoxical effects unknown on one's humanity, would logically tend toward the superhuman for Rand rather than the subhuman affect it might have on others.
III. SDog
"I don't think the evidence is particularly strong in this case . . If Terez can prove a direct link between Rand Traveling to TAR, and LTT appearing more strongly, it would be very helpful."
"Strong evidence" is indeed a rare luxury from RJ, so to speak, but I believe the evidence for this theory is much stronger than for the taint theory, and the "direct link" as I see it should be clear by the end of this post - at least, I hope it is.
IV. Callandor
1. (in reference to "And you loved power)"To be technical, it was not Lews Therin. It was Rand saying what he knew because of Lews Therin. Lews Therin wasn't "unveiled" for real, until The Fires of Heaven."
The "unveiling" of LTT was a gradual process which began with the Lanfear quote (an appropriate situation for him to come out - she had him shielded) and continued with a few similar things in tSR, some of which I will point out along the way. Also, the development of TAR really begins in this book, with Egwene studying with the Wise Ones and the introduction of Birgitte.
2. (In reference to unique vulnerability due to being a Hero)
"Sounds like a cheap excuse. Rand is just like any other soul in the world. The only difference is that his soul is reborn as Hero to reaffirm the Balance of the Pattern that humanity is causing to lose that balance."
First, humanity is not the cause of loss of balance, it is the DO. The AOL proves that without his influence balance can be maintained by humans. The Heroes are born to thwart his influence. Second, that is certainly not the "only difference" in the Hero's soul. The Heroes reside in TAR in between lives, and that makes for no "cheap excuse." The idea that all taint-exposed channeling men experience past memories seems much cheaper. Schizo voices, maybe, but past memories?
3. "Simply saying that Rand being a Hero of the Horn makes him have unique experiences from entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh, sounds completely contrived."
On the contrary, saying that Rand obtains memories in a place where he normally has full access to those memories, because he is bound to a purpose, makes good sense, whereas the idea that the taint would taint would give him access to those memories sounds completely contrived.
4. "While in The Dragon Reborn, Rand does in fact enter tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh to battle Ishamael, there is also another bit event going on - Rand has Callandor. Rand having and using (and taking in more taint) from the second most powerful sa'angreal for men, is quiet a big event. Rand does not enter in the flesh at all in The Shadow Rising (this is true) - yet again in The Fires of Heaven, there is a huge development in Lews Therin: he first appears as a voice in Rand's mind. Your answer so far does not have an explanation for that - the taint theory does. What happened at the end of The Shadow Rising?"
This is what happened, before Rand touched the access key. Rand Skimmed to Rhuidean to follow Asmodean. Don't forget that the Skimming space seems to be a part of the World of Dreams. Here are some quotes:
tSR, ch. 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean"
HB p. 670 (Rand)
" 'Did I make these (steps) with the Power, or do they exist some other way?' With the thought, the gray stone under his foot began to fade, and all the others ahead shimmered. Desperately he concentrated on them, gray stone and real. Real! The shimmering stopped. They were not so plain now, but polished, the edges carved in a fancy border he thought he recalled seeing somewhere else. Not caring where - not sure he dared think too long on it - he ran as hard as he could . . ." Rand already has that foreboding about knowledge from nowhere . . .
p.672 (in Rhuidean)
"Rand channeled - it seemed oddly difficult; he pulled at saidin, wrenched at it until it raged into him . . ." Why was it "oddly difficult?"
"From huge windows of colored glass, images of majestically serene men and women seemed to look at Rand in reproof. 'I have to stop him,' he told them; his voice seemed to echo in his own ears." Sound familiar?
"Fire bloomed around Rand, enveloped him as the air became flame - and vanished before he was even aware of how he did it."
p. 673
"He had to stop Asmodean. Straining - and it took strain - he threw lightning ahead . . ." Why the strain? He's not that tired yet.
p. 675 (after the struggle with the access key, Rand's thought)
"'I destroy. Always I destroy! Light, will it ever end?'"
I think that was LTT's first thought, and though it came after the struggle with the access key, I believe it also came as the last clue in a string lain through this chapter. I don't think the shield over Rhuidean caused the odd strain with the Power, because sheilds (which are the same as wards) can't have multiple purposes. I don't think the explosion caused the echo of Rand's voice in his own ears, either.
5. "Look at those two events: Rand takes and uses Callandor, taking in lots of the taint - in the next book her first has thoughts/knowledge about a specific person's personality that he should never have known, yet does, as well as first hearing "a voice" . . . "
This is exactly my point - that "specific voice he sould never have known" is not explained by the taint satisfactorily, but going to TAR in the flesh does. The taint caused LTT to lose his memories, why would it cause Rand to gain them?
6. "In The Shadow Rising, he fights over and uses half the output of the greatest sa'angreal in the world, and taking all that taint in - and directly reactionary in the next book ve have the appearance of Lews Therin for real and confirmed in Rand's head. How strange."
Not strange - this is still a part of the gradual process. In Rand's first POV in tFoH, some of the evidence of LTT is still unconcious slips like the first outburst with Lanfear, such as the "little sister" and "Can Breat" comments - ch.2 "Rhuidean" "sometimes of late words seemed to pop into his head. A touch of madness, perhaps." Surely that stretches back to the comment to Lanfear.
7. "As for the Rahvin battle - Rand again throughout The Fires of Heaven has been using his angreal to large amounts, and expecially show in the Rahvin battle - more taint. I'm not saying that Tel'aran'rhiod entrance in the flesh had absolutely no effect on Rand - but I do not think it is how Lews Therin started in Rand's head. Heck, the viewpoint I support has the taint madness, stress, emotion suppression, and the breakdown of the barrier between past and present lives giving memories the ability to cross over and be the building blocks of another personality - if anything, I will gladly say that going into tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh was an added cause, but not the single or not the largest cause."
The TAR connection is not a very good red herring, not the way RJ slipped it in and backed it up. The taint, however, is an excellent red herring. Oh, he's just going mad, hearing voices in his head. Of course. But what other signs of madness has Rand displayed? Losing control of flawed Callandor doesn't count - that has a perfectly sound explanation. Rand is cool as a cucumber, he's not showing any real signs of madness other than the voice in his head, which is not madness but memory interpreted by fear of madness. Now that the taint is gone, there is no danger of taint-induced madness in any sort of new form.
V. Birgitte
1. "I'm not convinced (flesh-dreaming) had much to do with LTT in Rand's head, not the first time anyway."
Why not? The appearance was immediate.
2. "TAR doesn't seem to affect anyone else . . . Rahvin wasn't affected . . . Egwene wasn't affected"
Of course they weren't affected this way - they're not Heroes of the Horn that dwell in TAR in between lives. Now, if Egwene turns out to be a Hero, that would ruin everything. :)
3. "The only other person is Slayer. It's possible that some of Slayer's peculiarities came from goint into TAR in the flesh, but I'm inclined to think that they were caused by the DO."
I'm certainly not trying to suggest that Luc/Isam, either one, is a Hero of the Horn.
I think that addresses the points of debate so far.
Richard: 2005-07-12
I think some of you are not giving Terez theory must of a chance. You are too focus on this "soul" business. A soul is a soul and it does not take over nor give or take memories. The two main theories (Callandor and Terez) come down to the same principle: Rand soul "remembering" a previous life. Something it should not do. The thing is how the memories came to be there (taint or my now preferred, TAR-in-the-flesh). BTW callandor, I think Rand being a hero has everything to do with it!
** My last reply came up a bit delayed, I posted it just after Tamyrlin replied! has this happened to any of you folk? I am a newbie so i don't know if this happens frequently.
Callandor: 2005-07-13
**First, humanity is not the cause of loss of balance, it is the DO. The AOL proves that without his influence balance can be maintained by humans.**
No, it's humanity.
**Q: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man. Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things alltogether?
A: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could of as real.
Q: So threads and souls are the same thing?
A: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment.
The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.
Q: And the rest of the Shadowspawn?
A:What? Do they have souls you mean?
Q: Yeah, and how do their threads work?
A: The threads work in the way, in the same way that the thread of any living thing works. It is part of the Pattern. They are not outside of the Pattern. Neither are the Forsaken. But the Pattern in a thing that is open, that's change. It is not a matter of the lives being forced necessarily. It's wide, you have the Pattern, the Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behaviour is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balace. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.**
The Dark One plays a motivator in this, but it's not his fault that humanity decided to choose this way or that way -- definately an influence, but it comes down to the people choosing to do what they do.
The reason the balance changes, is because there is free will in the world. A very small degree of it, but it is there, and that change builds up over time eventually resulting in big changes that the Pattern must put back -- IE: the ta'veren and Heroes of the Horn.
**The Heroes are born to thwart his influence. Second, that is certainly not the "only difference" in the Hero's soul. The Heroes reside in TAR in between lives, and that makes for no "cheap excuse." The idea that all taint-exposed channeling men experience past memories seems much cheaper. Schizo voices, maybe, but past memories?**
No, I have never, ever said that all male channelers experience memories from past lives, and this is your only warning in a gentle way to never put words into my mouth.
Getting memories from past lives requires a lot of taint taken in. A voice in your head, can be a result of taint madness (NOT barrier degredation).
So, many, many, male channelers over the 3rd Age would not have had memories from past lives in their heads -- they simply haven't channeled enough of the taint to do it, or if they have, they may get some in very small ways that don't overtly effect them (maybe like Rand's slip to Lanfear) but this is a long time after first channeling. Rand only has the memories after so short a time because he has had access to many things that other male channelers have not: angreal and sa'angreal (and not one of those weak in anyway), as well that Rand himself is a very powerful channeler.
**On the contrary, saying that Rand obtains memories in a place where he normally has full access to those memories, because he is bound to a purpose, makes good sense, whereas the idea that the taint would taint would give him access to those memories sounds completely contrived.**
Uh, Rand doesn't "normally" have memories in Tel'aran'rhiod. Only dead Heroes awaiting rebirth do. Once again, saying that Rand would, sounds contrived.
And, Skimming does not have any reference to "bad effects of it" at all -- but only entering tel'aran'rhiod itself does.
**Rand already has that foreboding about knowledge from nowhere . . .**
Those steps are exactly the same as the ones Rand made in The Eye of the World -- which is how they are "oddly familiar".
**Why was it "oddly difficult?"**
Because Rand is still a wilder at this point -- saidin doesn't come to him everytime and he says he must wrestle saidin to control it at anytime.
**This is exactly my point - that "specific voice he sould never have known" is not explained by the taint satisfactorily, but going to TAR in the flesh does. The taint caused LTT to lose his memories, why would it cause Rand to gain them?**
Because Rand is Lews Therin reborn! It's the same soul!
And the points I was making show how your ideas do not explain the appearance of Lews Therin completely.
**Not strange - this is still a part of the gradual process.**
No, you mean a part of the supposed process. Rand didn't enter tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh throughout The Shadow Rising -- where did he "gradually" lose his humanity then?
And, of course the process is continuing, but Lews Therin has appeared. He is there in Rand by The Fires of Heaven, chapter 2. He first speaks and Rand first has memories of Ilyena for sure. Whatever process is going on, it reached an important marker there.
Your theory does not completely show how this marker was reached since Rand did not enter tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh throughout The Shadow Rising. So why did Lews Therin for sure appear in The Fires of Heaven rather than the beginning of The Shadow Rising?
**Rand is cool as a cucumber, he's not showing any real signs of madness other than the voice in his head, which is not madness but memory interpreted by fear of madness.**
No sign of madness OTHER than a raving voice in Rand's head. Oh boy, what a herring.
1. I have never said that Rand is "just" going mad. Rand's madness is very uncommon if not outright unique (depending on the amount of taint it takes to break down barriers), because Rand is getting factual and truthful knowledge that is not simply madness.
2. You almost have the taint-barrier theory right, and are calling the cause of it something else. All the taint barrier theory does in essence, is explain where Rand got the memories from. Lews Therin came from a foundation of those memories, supression of emotions by Rand, general taint madness playing a hand, stress, and maybe even some of entering tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh. But not one of those, is the single and solitary cause in the way that you are stating -- they simply aren't.
**Now that the taint is gone, there is no danger of taint-induced madness in any sort of new form.**
Of any new form -- yeah, but just because saidin was Cleansed does not mean that the effects the taint did will be undone; RJ has already answered that question:
**Q: Does the healing of the taint reverse its previous effects? Or does the victim have to live with whatever he's gotten to that point and be grateful it won't get worse?
A: The second.**
**Q: When/ If Rand manages to remove the taint placed on saidin, are the people infected with it cured? or does their condition remain the way it is?
A: when/if the taint is removed from saidin further ill effects are stopped but what has already occured remains.**
Question for you -- how do you explain Lews Therin's disappearance in A Crown of Swords through the beginning of The Path of Daggers?
**Why not? The appearance was immediate.**
You just replied to me that it was gradual. So which is it? Immediate or gradual? One or the other, not both.
Birgitte: 2005-07-13
So you are saying that this only happens to Heroes when they go into TAR? You forgot to add that little tidbit in the main theory:):) That and Tam's reply was all that was up when I hit reply, so I guess, I just missed that point.
With that, its possible it started with that it began the first time he entered in the flesh. The question is why would it affect only Heroes like that? Also, if it only affected Heroes, why would the Aiel Wise Ones warn people not to try it? Logically it would have taken more than one person coming back from being in TAR in the flesh for them to realize that it was causing people to lose their humanity. What are the odds that every one of those people was a Hero reborn? Not likely, I'd say.
Richard-
"** My last reply came up a bit delayed, I posted it just after Tamyrlin replied! has this happened to any of you folk? I am a newbie so i don't know if this happens frequently."
Normally it doesn't take that long for replies to get put up (theories yes, but replies, no). Tam was visiting some relatives, so he didn't get the chance to post them up right away. Plus the server was acting up, so Frenzy was having problems getting on the site to post them too. And welcome to Theoryland. Hope ya have fun.:)
ThunderWalker: 2005-07-15
Regarding Heroes of the Horn... (discused in one of the previous replies)
Ishamael states that he and Rand (LTT) have been wrestling with each other over and over since the beginning of Time. If this is true, I have the following question/comment.
Are all Heroes good guys? The name "Heroes of the Horn" implies that they are all good, but it may be possible that the pattern may need to spin out bad guys to influence the world too. A world without evil wouldn't be "in balance".
If what Ishamael says is true, then Ishamael is a recuring character as much as Rand, or Heroes of the Horn.
I am just suggesting the Heroes are just the term used for the good half of those waiting rebirth.
ThunderWalker: 2005-07-15
Replying to myself :)
If Ishamael is to be believed, he is the reincarnated soul that the Dark One uses to battle the Dragon.
Ishamael and LTT were both born before Bore was drilled, so the pattern spun both of them out to do battle before that event occured.
If Ishamael is incorrect, then he could have just been any old soul chosen by the DO after the DO was freed. That is, he personally has not battled the dragon every time.
If Ishamael's statement is true, and the DO had no influence over soul's placement, why did the pattern spin him out? The answer could simply be that the Pattern of Ages requires the DO to be free at that point, so requires someone to drill a bore, and be his champions. Which yields the possiblity of Dark Heroes.
Callandor: 2005-07-16
**If Ishamael's statement is true, and the DO had no influence over soul's placement, why did the pattern spin him out? The answer could simply be that the Pattern of Ages requires the DO to be free at that point, so requires someone to drill a bore, and be his champions. Which yields the possiblity of Dark Heroes.**
There's more to being a Hero than simply being on the "good" side. Heroes are corrective mechanisms to the Pattern (as well as all ta'veren are). Ishamael simply doesn't fit this catagory -- he didn't correct anything, Lews Therin did. He isn't correcting anything now, Rand, Mat, and Perrin are.
It could very well be that Ishamael is always the soul reborn to confront the Dragon as the Dark One's champion. Or it could very well be that Ishamael is simply half-mad, and the Dark One merely chose him last Age, and since he's remained faithful and able to be transmigrated, in this Age as well.
Unlikely we will know, but I don't think there's enough to give rise to any credence of "Dark Heroes" -- if the Pattern needs the balance, it spins out a Hero; regardless of who/what needs that balance enough to do it. If the Light is too off balance, the Shadow will have a boost off the actions of a Hero (that is not to say that the Hero will be a Darkfriend or anything -- merely that they serve balance, not a true side).
Anubis: 2005-07-16
**3. As for the Rahvin battle -- Rand again throughout The Fires of Heaven has been using his angreal to large amounts, and especially show in the Rahvin battle -- more taint. **
If angreal had anything to do with ammount of taint drawn in, then rand would be stark raving mad throw feces at the wall loony after the cleansing, and possibly nynaeve.
JakOShadows: 2005-07-16
anubis: How do we know he has or hasn't started hearing the personality in his head more after that. We only see him in two chapters, one from his pov, in CoT. There are no other references to him after the cleansing otherwise. But I do remember reading somewhere that some sa'angreals and angreals shield the channeler from burning out and losing control. I was wondering if that would also affect how the taint affected him. And I notice this a lot more when he's using Callandor. I believe it was somewhere in WH or PoD.
Anubis: 2005-07-17
im not saying he would hear LTT. it would be WAY beyond that. That much taint would equal strait jacket + padded room, or possibly mercy killing. LTT would be one among many.
Callandor: 2005-07-17
**If angreal had anything to do with ammount of taint drawn in, then rand would be stark raving mad throw feces at the wall loony after the cleansing, and possibly nynaeve.**
When did I ever say that Rand would not be affected greatly by the Cleansing? And, if you look at Crossroads, the relationship between Rand and Lews Therin is getting more ominous:
**TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight, CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm
"I don't want to kill her. Rand thought at the dead man. I can't afford for her to die. Lews Therin knew that as well as he, but the man grumbled under his breath anyway. Since Shadar Logoth, he seemed a touch less mad, sometimes. Or maybe Rand was a touch more. After all, he took talking to a dead man in his head as a matter of every day, and that was hardly sane."
**I was wondering if that would also affect how the taint affected him.**
Nope. The taint enters into a male channeler if they come in contact with saidin (and apparently if they don't for Rand has tried reaching saidin, failed, and the taint entered him), regardless.
What Callandor does is magnify the taint, because it is flawed. The buffer does prevent burn out, and Callandor does not have that, but nothing is stated about the taint other than Callandor magnifying it.
Anubis: 2005-07-17
Saying its human nature that throws the wheel off and not the Dark One is ENTIRELLY too vague. The Dark One causes human nature to be its worst, the two work together to bring chaos. Sometimes even innocent human nature aids the dark one (bore anyone?) which gives the Dark One the power to strengthen the perverse side of human nature. If you read the BWB it says that after the bore crime suddenly skyrocketed and noone knew why. Everyone thought civilization was going to collapse untill the Dark One gave them something to fight.
Callandor: 2005-07-17
**Saying its human nature that throws the wheel off and not the Dark One is ENTIRELLY too vague. The Dark One causes human nature to be its worst, the two work together to bring chaos.**
I'm sure the Dark One plays a part, but it is not solely because of him that the corrections are needed -- far from it. RJ himself simply said: human behavior is throwing the Pattern.
Would the Dark One effect this? Of course. But you cannot say it is simply the Dark One. He has an influence; he does not make people become evil -- that is their choice.
**If you read the BWB it says that after the bore crime suddenly skyrocketed and noone knew why.**
Yes, anubis, I have read the BWB. In fact I believe I have quoted from it in this discussion. It boils down to human behavior though.
terez: 2005-07-18
I think it's very interesting that LTT seems less mad in Rand's head these days. Perhaps Rand will come to terms with the fact that it doesn't make any sense to have a conversation with yourself (still I wonder what Birgitte would think of this if she knew) and perhaps he will learn to access his LTT memories without all that cumbersome dialogue. Anyway. Knife of Dreams. I am hoping this will shed some light on the dangers of flesh-dreaming.