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anfear: Asmodeans Killer

by Callandor: 2003-04-09 | 6.4 out of 10 (5 votes)

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories

This isnt a new theory, as many people know, however I think it gives new persectives on it and hopefully new ideas toward the killer; although most have been widdled down to two possible killers: Graendal and Lanfear.

TFOH, Chapter 56, Glowing Embers, page 682: **[Asmodean] pulled open a small door, intending to find his way to the pantry. There should be some decent wine. One step, and he stopped, the blood draining from his face. "You? No!" The word still hung in the air when death took him.**

So ends and begins on of the most debated things about the WOT besides how the series will end it seems.

Ok, lets start at the beginning. Asmodean is dead. No question there. Its a duh answer because RJ has said before that it isnt a pun about Moridin (Death in the Old Tounge) taking Asmodean hostage. Hes dead but most people have assumed that for a long time now.

Now, there are 3 key things to a murder: Means (weapon), Motive (reason), and Opportunity (the killer is there to kill his/her target).

Now just by that, it makes a VERY long list; practically anybody in the palace can fit 2 of those. However, we know that there are more criteria to fulfill before a certain killer is made.

So, there are a few more things that need to be met: We have Means, Motive, Opportunity. Now add a person who he must, MUST recognize and be afraid of, the killer has to get rid of the body because Rand still thinks that Asmo has run away even up until TPOD, TPOD, Chapter 29, A Cup of Sleep, page 565; next comes that the killer must know that Asmo is dead, must be reason why RJ and killer kept the murder secret, and it must be OBVIOUS from the moment he died (RJ said that we should know who killed him the moment he died, and I wont go on that he said he left clues as of LOC and ACOS, if he ment TFOH, then TFOH it will be).

So lets summise some possible killers from the possible criteria and give reasons why or why not they could have killed Asmo:

Aran gar: Busy being dead since he was Balthamel and was being reincarnated by the DO at this point.

Demandred: LOC, Prologue, The First Message, pages 15-16, **Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did.** Proof in itself that Demandred thinks Asmo is gone but not dead.

Graendal: This is the biggest part of the theory: Graendal for 1. Didn't know about Rand being in Caemlyn, hence Asmo being there, and 2. If she is mentioned in previous books, it is EXTREMELY vague. She fails the obvious part of the criteria totally.

She didn't kill him (and if you bring up the quote that she told all the other Forsaken alive and meeting her, shes a Forsaken talking to another Forsaken they are experts at spreading misinformation).

Ishamael/Moridin: Same as Aran gar. He was busy being reincarnated by the DO at the time as far as we know and have no other proof/hint that he was out before this time.

Lanfear: See Below.

Mesaana: Same as Graendal. Doesnt know that Rand attacked Caemlyn spur of the moment and fails the obviousness totally.

Moghedien: Busy being either drugged by Forkroot, or at least captured by Nynaeve in Salidar with the homemade adam from Elayne.

Fain: No way his dagger isnt fast enough to kill Asmo to leave his words hanging in the air. Look at how the dagger kills Tuarks servants in TGH. They turn black and bubbly so thats no where instantaneous enough, also how, I think its Torval, dies in Far Madding. Same thing. No fast enough.

Sammael: He said in pure anger that he believe both Lanfear and Asmodean to be alive. LOC, Chapter 6, Threads Woven of Shadow, 133, "Rumors! Lanfear has been aiding al Thor since the beginning, if you [Graendal] ask me. I would have had his head in the Stone of Tear except that someone sent Myrddraal and Trollocs to save him! That was Lanfear; I am certain. Im done with her. The next time I see her, Ill kill her! And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al Thor. Hes teaching him!** No way he did it.

Shaidar Haran: Fails obvious worse then Graendal and Mesaana since I highly doubt Asmodean would recognize him and Asmo for sure wouldnt know him.

Slayer: We simply didnt know enough about Slayer and his abilities till WH. He fails obviousness too, plus hes still not fast enough.

Ok that should cover all the possibilites. Only one left is Lanfear.

Of course there is a major downfall to this one: She was forced/pushed/landed on into Finnland through the Rhuidean doorway in Cairhien by Moiraine Sedai. Will explain in a little bit.

Motive: Lanfear though Asmodean could teach Rand enough to face her, which was obviously wrong at the docks in Cairhien. Thats a big grudge to me. Shes the egotistical type big time.

Furthurmore, Lanfear said she would knock him off, although its subtle. TSR, Chapter 9, Decisions, page 129, **Kneel to the Great Lord, and he will set you above all others. He will leave you free to reign as you will, so long as you bend knee to him only once. To acknowledge him. No more than that. He told me this. Asmodean will teach you to wield the Power without it killing you, teach you what you can do with it. Let me help you. We can destroy all the others. The Great Lord will not care. We can destroy all of them, EVEN ASMODEAN, ONCE HE HAS TAUGHT YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW. You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord, forever.**

(emphasis is mine)

Need anything more? Still not convinced? Just wait.

TFOH, Chapter 56, Glowing Embers, page 681, **He was hardly sorry Lanfear was dead. Rahvin either, but Lanfear especially, for what she had done to him. He would laugh when each of the others died, too, and most for the last.** 10 seconds later, Asmo is dead. Irony? Just a little bit I think.

Anybody else complete the obviousness and Ill change to that person right now. But there isnt anybody else in my mind that comes close.

Ok... Finally. The problem and my solution to it. Its quite simple I think. The Finn granted a wish by Lanfear, something like **I want to go meet a friend of mine in Caemlyn but I want to arrive in an out of the way place so I dont startle my friend.**

Now, a new twist. I think that the Finn have a call back **button** that they use for if someone were to wish themselves out of Finnland for their first or second wish so they can grant the rest of the wishes or more importantly they can get the rest of the persons memories. An example might be, **I want to know how to find such and such treasure, and take me to it.**

Right after that wish is complete, they use the call back button.

So, this is my take on the whole thing.

Lanfear having just been brought into Finnland, wishes to go to Caemlyn to meet her **friend**. But it is NOT!, repeat NOT!, Asmodean she is implying. Its Rand she wants to kill.

Now I dont know any other place in a huge palace that is more out of the way then a small closet thing-a-ma-jig. So the Finn grant Lanfears wish and send her to the closet.

Right then, and I do mean RIGHT THEN because the quote says he took **one step in**, Asmodean stepped in to see Lanfear just coming out of no where. Wouldn't you be a little dumbstruck? Not to mention seeing a woman thinking just a SECOND ago that she was dead.

Lanfear, seeing Asmodean, thinks **Why not kill two birds with one trip?** So she balefires Asmo out of pure contempt and ego rage.

The Finn realizing that Lanfear just killed someone most likely think **OH CRAP!** And they press the call back button.

Poof Lanfear goes back to Finnland. The Finn handle her in a simple fashion: they rummage through ALL her memories from the AoL, to the time in the Bore, till present. Then, they simply kill her (and I wont post about the loss of power, that could have been the Finn or a punishment from the DO for helping Rand out. You decide where you stand on that yourself).

So. Asmodean dead. No body, no killer, no witnesses. Perfect crime.

Secrecy? Duh, she was dead till TPOD, and we didnt even get a perspective from her till WH, and she mentions that the Finn held her, thats it. Why not RJ tell us? Obvious. He likes to see us squirm. Hes said that enough times.

Lanfear did it. Plain, simple, and elegant.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-04-14

Okay, you are lucky you added something different at the end of your theory...or this would have gone by the wayside. You could have, of course, simply mentioned your new twist instead of the rehash...but you are lucky I am a closet/Lanfear nut. Plus, I really like your idea. The idea that someone could know where Asmodean was going, and was sitting around waiting to knock him off with Rand in the other room has always seemed absolutely ridiculous to me. This of course would include anyone. But the idea that the Finns could have granted this wish, and placed her into his pathway, and then take her back (as part of their deal), would make a bit of sense out of a silly scene. But the question is, where is the proof from the following books that suggests that this could have or did happen. Jordan believes he has tried even harder to clarify the killer in the following books. Good luck.

2

jason wolfbrother: 2003-04-14

Graendal does not fail the obvious part at all. We know that Graendal, Lanfear, Sammael, and Rahvin were all plotting together to trap Rand. We have Moggy's explanation Nynaeve and we see it from Lanfear's POV. The trip to Caemlyn was spur of the moment. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the Forsaken would meet for more planning? Graendal could have easily been in Caemlyn to visit Rahvin. She gets there in time to find out that Rand has killed Rahvin. We have a precedent from COS of her searching a recently deceased Forsaken's place for an angreal attuned to women. She finds the angreal ring in Sammael's stash. It is reasonable to assume she was looking for Rahvin's stash and Asmodean stumbled upon her. She was just as surprised but she recovered and killed him to hide her presence.

I think that this is much more obvious than Lanfear using a wish to get out of *finnland just in time to appear where Asmodean just happens to be and kill him, then be recalled back to *finnland by the *Finn. Sorry Callandor but I still think Graendal is guilty. Lanfear could not have gotten out of *finnland in time to arrive in Caemlyn.

3

Callandor: 2003-04-14

1) What stash of angreal? Graendal only knew about Sammaels because he was teasing her with the idea of it.

2) I for one would believe that Ravhin if he did have a stash of angreal would hide it in an obvious place behind an inverted ward like Mogehien did in Tanchico.

3) As for Lanfear just appearing out of nowhere right by Asmodean; how many times have we heard that Rand is most likely the biggest Ta Veren since LTT if not ever? How many children in Tear fell out of windows from high up and then landed on the tile floors without even a scratch?

So is it so out of line that the Finn, who seem to rely on reading the pattern for granting wishes/questions, would send someone randomly to the palace through a wish and through **luck** brought Lanfear to one of her **old friends**: Asmodean?

To me that sounds a lot more likely then Graendal just deciding to run over to Ravhins area for an unmentioned stash on angreal that he had and stumbling on to Asmodean. But whatever you believe.

4

Mairan Sedai: 2003-04-14

I have to agree with jason wolfbrother here. There's no evidence that the *finns have any control whatsoever outside their domain. If someone is lucky enough to get out, they're out unless they decide to voluntarily go back in. And don't forget, Lanfear was stilled in Finnland. Even if she didn't actually die until after she got out, there's no way she could have balefired Asmodean.

5

juitzhead: 2003-04-14

This is a topic that I have yet to reach a conclusion on, but I like the ideas that Callandor has raised.

I like the fact that you have included the Finn but also that she would have appeared there due to a wish and was called back because of a remaining wish/es.

Also, it is believed that Lanfear died when she was battling Moiraine at the docks in Cairheirn, but we learn in WH that she was only ‘held' by the Finn. On speculation that she wasn't stilled going through the doorway, and that she was alive to grant her wishes, wouldn't she have been mad enough to ask for the wishes and not name the price? She goes to Caemlyn, kills Asmo, is ‘recalled' by the Finn, gets two further wishes, then is kicked out of Finnland and with the price as her life. This would be similar to what happened to Mat when he went thorough, except, Rand saved him. I don't think Lanfear would have anyone to save her. The DO then re-incarnates her as Cyndane but with weaker power.

Further, is the strength in the OP related to their physical traits or is it part of their soul/essence? Eg. Did LTT have the same strength in the OP as Rand? Is one of them stronger? Were Balthamel and Aginor the same strength when they were reincarnated as the ‘angars?

This might explain why Cyndane was not as strong as Lanfear when re-incarnated.

6

Anubis: 2003-04-14

i dont know about the finns callback button idea. i think that lanfear went back all pissed off, killed asmodean (quickly so as not to alert her real target, and because she didnt really have a personal hatred). then ishy, or shaidar haran, who really dont want rand dead (as we have seen countless times) come and scoop her up (about location, shaidar locates mesaana just fine in the tower so that shouldnt pose a problem, and knowledge of motive... its lanfear and she just tried to kill the guy, thats enough). then shaidar, or moridin, or both, torture (or maybe not, but it does seem to be their style) and kill lanfear, then to drive the lesson home, they bring her back and give her the name "last chance" and a soul trap to ensure obiediance. recall that she does not really like the name, and note how well it fits. we killed you once, and we will do it again. this is your last chance and you need to know it.

7

Rand-althor: 2003-04-15

I have always agreed with the Graendal idea. I agree, finns have no power outside their domain. The only possable way I can see is that the tower of Ghenji(sorry if thats spelled wrong) can be used to enter AND exit. Then she leaves through there, but I find it hard to believe that from that distance, she could weave a gateway, that happend to be in the room that asmo was going into. More likely, Grendal came for a forsaken meeting, saw, if she got there in time, or heard about the fight. I tend to believe she saw it, then as there were women who could channel the OP in the palace, she wouldnt want to create another gateway for fear of being caught, and would instead cover her ability, invert it, then hide just in case. This gives a good reason for her being there, and of corse because only Asmo and maybe Rand(through LTT)could recognise her she would have no need for a mirror of mists disguise, which would only add to the chance of capture, so Asmo walks in, sees her, and here comes the "You?" He then feels her using the power, and thinks "with this shield im no match for her!" so he says "No!" and she kills him fast because she cant do anything. I agree with all the disproving exept for Grendal and i guess Mesaana because she could have done the same cause ur reasoning is the same for both.

8

Rand-althor: 2003-04-15

Oh ya, just remembered, the only reason i dont think its Mesaana is because she has no good reason to be there at all (she not part of conspiracy) so the only reason would be a suspected cashe of angreals, which is less likely to draw her there at that exact time.

9

Anubis: 2003-04-15

jitzhead... aran and osan gar dont mention any change in power. also the fact that the woman channels saidin would lead me to believe that channeling is based on the soul, or at least that incarnation of the soul. (being reborn due to darkone as the same person i count as one incarnation, wheel spinning and you getting naturally rewoven would be 2)

also the before the fin held her strongly implies, if not just states, that it was somthing the *finns did.

10

araqyl: 2003-05-12

A way that allows Lanfear to be Asmodean's killer without granting the *finns power outside their domain is simple - one of her 'wishes' was for Asmodean to die, knowing that she was the cause of his death. The *finns could have sent a double of Lanfear, killed Asmodean, and had L within their power the whole time.

Of course, this is pure speculation...

btw, the clues in later books that it may have been Lanfear are her continued existence - at least keeps her in the frame...

11

Wolfblade: 2003-05-12

I can like the Lanfear theory. My only question is the motive of Lanfear, assuming that the finns granted her wish. Then why would she want to kill Asmo; becuase he isn't teaching Rand enough. I think Lanfear is not that petty. For the simple reason taht Lanfear tied Asmo to Rand so that he will be able ot protect himself from the other forsaken becasue Rand is LTT, the man she loves. Though rand's progress is slow is no reason to kill his only available teacher.

Now the idea the Graendal killed Asmo is motive, though Forsaken want other forsaken out of the way the have shown no effort in trying to kill each other personally.

NOw a question is that to kill a forsaken by balefire would destory all that Rand was taught. That destorys the Lanfear/Graendal using balefire on Asmo. Also if it would take alot of OP to destory a forsaken whether by balefire or not. If I am not mistaken channeling that much saidin would make Casdaune aware of it. Likewise for the Saidar rand would have known if someone would be channeling on that scale. Now which leaves only one power left to use which is TP.

Now I don't know what that means but it occurs to me if the any Power was used it would have to be TP so that it wasn't detected.

Now that leaves another option that the power wasn't used. But I just saying. You guys can take it up from there.

12

Callandor: 2003-05-13

1. Cadsuane wasnt there at all. She was introduced in ACOS.

2. Balefire doesnt undo EVERYTHING a person does. The more powerful the balefire, the further bac is undone. But a weak like thread think balefire would kill then with no body and undo maybe one minute at max I would think.

3. Sensing another man channeling is harder then **finding a lion in high grass** (not direct quote but very close). It depends on the amouth channeled at proximity but is still difficult.

4. Lanfear IS that petty. Why is she so after Rand? Because the Dragon in his PAST LIFE for crying out loud, turned her down.

5. Lanfear didnt plan on going in to kill Asmo. She wnet in to kill Rand and happened upon Asmodean and decided to kill him anyway out of spite.

13

Wolfblade: 2003-05-14

That still doesn't answer the reason why didn't Rand detect saidar being channel. I know for certain that balefire is a complex weave and takes a person very strong in the OP to create it. I also do not believe that a small theard of balefire could destroy Asomodean.

Another question you failed to answer is why would Lanfear kill her Rand's only teacher.

A new question that ties into the one above. WHy would Lanfear want to kill Rand the man she loves?

You said that Lanfear is that petty. i believe even if she is she would use her wish to make plans. Lanfear may be petty but she isn't stupid, she doesn't cause kill just for fun. SHe is a devious person who will plan to get her power.

14

Callandor: 2003-05-15

1. Rand weaves fine flows of balefire at the Darkhounds in Rhuidean.

2. In WH, Cyndane who is Lanfear reborn states that she WANTS RAND DEAD!

3.Any amount of balefire will destroy a person and burn their thread back. That is why it is so dangerous and unpredictable.

4. Moiraine on a real scale isnt that strong of a channeler, compaired to Egwene or Elayne or Avi. Yet she can weave balefire. Be lal in the Stone only recognized it because it was at close proximity (about 100-200 feet at most would be my guess and thats being generous).

5. Why would Lanfear kill Rands teacher? Because he was a better teacher then she thought he would be, and just pure conincdence of being near him after the Finn brought her there.

6. This is clearly stated in the thoery: She didnt intend to kill Asmodean, she wanted to kill RAND! Her wish just brought her to an out of the way place so she could go to him and kill him.

15

araqyl: 2003-05-16

I think Callandor has it right about Lanfear's motive for killing Asmodean - she wanted him to teach Rand enough to be able to face down the other Forsaken, but not so much that he would overwhelm her - and it appeared that Asmodean's teaching (such as it was - it seemed to me that LTT/Rand were working most out on their own) was going too fast...

16

Wolfblade: 2003-05-19

Just becuase Cyndane wanted Rand dead is not proof that Lanfear wants Rand dead. Many of the reincarnation do not act as their orginal forms. Moridin for example. I also believe to have read that Lanfear want Rand to learn enough to defeat the other Forsaken, SHE DID NOT CARE IF HE OVERPOWERED HER. She want to Rand to become Nae'blis and to rule with her and the Dark One.

17

Callandor: 2003-05-19

Umm.... Ishamael is Moridin. And he acts VERY much like his old self.

And if Cyndanes POV doesn help you, then why does Lanfear go friggin nuts on the Cairhien docks and yelling at Rand for him to die??

Lanfear wanted Rand to rule by her side but since he kept refusing to do so she flipped and decided she wanted him dead.

18

Wolfblade: 2003-05-20

Callandor if you can give me examples where the reincarnated act like the people they were reincarnated from I would completely see the logic in your theory. But If u cannot then I fail to the motive there for no. Reason.

19

Callandor: 2003-05-20

Ill give you directness from the WOT FAQ about Moridin. All this from the TPOD prolouge:

**Moridin's blank-faced servants are identical to Ishamael's servants from the prologue of TGH. Similarly, the chamber in which he sits contains a fire that gives no heat and consumes no logs. It has no physical means of egress. This is identical in tone to the description given of Ishamael's chambers through TEOTW and TGH.**

More...

**(Also in the Prologue) while Moridin is musing over his re-creation of an historical game of sha'rah, it becomes extremely clear that the game is a metaphor for the struggle between the Dark One and the rest of the world, with Rand (or the Dragon) embodied in the Fisher piece. One can win by either controlling and moving the Fisher piece to a particular location, by allowing your opponent to hold the Fisher and leaving him only legal moves which similarly result in victory for you. The style of the game parallels Ishamael's actions through the first three volumes very well, always manipulating Rand even though he was in the hands of other powers. The final method of victory is simply to be the last man standing. Moridin muses that he had only attempted that strategy once, with very painful results. This is almost certainly a metaphorical reference to his desperate assault on Rand at the end of TDR, the painful results being his own physical death.**

And more...

**The final observation from the prologue of TPOD is that Moridin becomes angry as he muses over the fact that he does not understand the origins of the name or the traditional shape of the Fisher piece on the game board. He becomes angry because he regards that knowledge, likely lost from some previous turning of the Wheel, as his right. Ishamael is the only other villain to worry seriously over events from other cycles, as he asserts in the prologue of TEOTW that he and Lews Therin have fought again and again since the beginning of time. According to [Guide: 5, The Dark One and the Male Forsaken, 50], Ishamael believed "the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin had gone on since the Creation, an endless war between the Great Lord of the Dark and the Creator using human surrogates."**

Any more proof needed?

20

Korell: 2003-05-21

Even though i am not a Lanfear Killed Asmo fan i do have one comment to make on this point between Wolfblade and Callandor....Ishamale is acting like his normal self maybe a little less insane but for all intensive purposes the same second...Cyndane we have not really seen enough of the know weather she is acting the same....Third and here is the Problem with your statment Wolfblade We never got to know either of the Gars before they were recycled so there is really nothing to base the point that recycled people act any diffrent then they ever did because we realy only have one person to go off of and that is Mordin...unless you can find some more info about the Gars before they were recycled on this point i am with Callondor They are no diffrent then they were before only in a diffrent body and maybe a little more cautious because of underestimating Rand.

21

Wolfblade: 2003-05-23

But we have had a chance to meet and get to know Cydane. Once again Ishamel and Moridin both users of TP. Therefore the similar charcteristics.

Ex:

The room u describe is very similar to the room that Rand, Mat, and Perrin meet the DO in for the first time in Bearlon in TEOW. As we know the TP comes from the DO himself therefore just similar characterisrtic from those who channel it.

22

Rand-althor: 2003-05-24

I fail to see the validity in the statement that all TP channelers have the same characteristics. All AS draw Saidar from the same place, yet there are hundreds of different personalities, and same with Asha'men. Just because someone channels the TP does not mean that they have the same identity. If I remember correctly, there is a short reference by another forsaken about how they try never to use the TP. This means at least 1 other foraken has used it, and all the forsaken are very unique in personality.

23

Callandor: 2003-05-24

Ishamael is dead. Moridin is Ishamael brought back by the DO. They are NOT seperate distinct people. They have the same characteristics because, ta-da-, they are both Ishamael.

If you need proof of this go to the WOT FAQ at the links section of Theoryland under the Top Five choices. The FAQ goes into great depth of why Moridin is Ishamael reincarnated.

24

Rand-althor: 2003-05-25

Also, how do you see him taking them to the same room, as just similar charactoristics? First of all, room has nothing to do with charactor, and seccond, if they both favour the same room, they both channel the TP heavily, they are both described as a little crazy, and the other similarities, well then, I find it hard to believe that there are two people like that in existance, at all, and the room is no evedence either way.

25

Callandor: 2003-05-25

I am not saying that everybody who channels TP is the same person. I am saying that Moridin and Ishamael are the same person, and getting very damn tired of saying it since its so obvious.

26

Rand-althor: 2003-05-26

Callandor, I am agreeing with you. I am merely pointing out that with that many similarities, it is either the best ever ploy to throw us off track, and make us believe that Moridin is Ishy (unlikely because of the overwhelming amout of evedence, and parts of the story from his POV linking him with Ishy) or, they are one and the same. As you can see, they are obviously the same person.

27

ladof: 2004-01-24

I think most people overlook one very important person who was with Asmodean for a long time, someone who proved himself able to kill and remove a body efficiently. Hadnan Kadere, the "peddler" that originally brought Lanfear and Asmo into the Waste to find Rand. He killed Isendre after she was broken by the Maidens, and people though she ran away. I can't remember if Kadere was with Rand in Caemlyn, but Asmo knew him well enought. Also, Kadere could have been acting on orders from a Forsaken, probably Lanfear, who was his last mistress. So the Lanfear killer theory could be true through another source, too.

28

Callandor: 2004-01-24

You are overlooking a big thing: he died before Asmodean was killed. Kadere was employed by Lanfear, that is certain, and he was also killed by her for giving the unpleasent news about Rand having "fun" with Avi. She skinned him for that at the Cairhien docks, before attacking Rand.

29

jason wolfbrother: 2004-01-24

one small problem with Kadere as the killer. HE WAS DEAD!!!!!!!! Lanfear killed him on the docks in Cairhein. That is when she found out that Aviendha had slept with Rand and she lost it. Kadere lost his skin, not to mention his life when he told her. She went berserk and was tackled through the doorway by Moiraine to be held by the Finn. Kadere was already dead when Asmo was killed. He is not the killer.

30

scope: 2004-12-08

How would the Finns know where Asmodean or Rand where.

The Aelfinn seem to be able to 'read' the person that comes to see them and thus devine their future, i.e with Matt to 'marry the daughter of the nine moons''to die and live again' 'to give up half the light of the world to save the world' TSR p249. However with Lanfear arriving what exactly would they be reading from her.. that Asmodean was about to got into a storeroom looking for wine?

When he goes through the red twisted doorframe in Rhuidean Mat receives gifts, his memory is filled in, he is given protection against Aed Sedai, and is sent back to Rhuidean.

Now the wish that is the closest link to a possible teleportation service is his return to Rhuidean, but as he asks to 'return' and this is where he entered the ter'angreal, does this imply that they have the ability to transport people everywhere? I'm not convinced of that.

It's an intresting theory but it depends on the Finns having knowledge of everything, and if they were able to read peoples future to that degree it invalidates one of the premises. If they knew from her 'aura' that Lanfears 'friend' was entering a storeroom they would also know that she would kill him when they sent her there. It's a paradox (or something)

31

Callandor: 2004-12-11

**How would the Finns know where Asmodean or Rand where.**

Ta'veren. Lanfear wished "I want to go meet a friend of mine in Caemlyn but I want to arrive in an out of the way place so I dont startle my friend." or some such. What's more out of the way then the place Asmodean died (not the wine pantry; heck we don't even know where he died)? The timing issue is pure ta'veren to me; after all, Rand is in very close approximation.

**Now the wish that is the closest link to a possible teleportation service is his return to Rhuidean, but as he asks to 'return' and this is where he entered the ter'angreal, does this imply that they have the ability to transport people everywhere? I'm not convinced of that.**

They did not simply throw Mat outside the doorway; they moved him across the plaza, up a tree, and hung him. It takes some power in the real world to do that.

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Taim is not Demandred: 2005-06-17

I don't mean to be a jerk about this but in an online Q&A RJ himself has confirmed that it was Semirhage who killed Asmodean

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Lauric: 2005-10-08

Lanfear wouldn't waste a wish on killing Asmodean. I want to know people's reasoning behind her actually getting wishes. I mean, really, she's no more (even less actually) powerful than when she was pushed through the door and her sole ambition is power.

Per RJ blog on Dragonmount, Ravhin knew Rand was coming for him. He was only suprised because he didn't expect Rand to get to him that quickly, and whats to stop Ravhin from telling Grandael about it? She may not have tried to help him (of course) but she may have waited around hoping to score some cache material (which also explains why she's in a pantry).She appears or is spoken of 27 times before Asmo's death and 26 of those were in Fires of Heaven (per Theoryland book search of EotW-FoH). So she doesn't fail the 'obvious' theory.

*Do you know they are drawing Rand al'Thor to attack Sammael? But when he does, he will find the others as well, waiting to trap him between them. *At least, he will find Graendal and Rahvin.* I think Lanfear plays another game, one the others know nothing about."*

Foreshadowing anyone?

**I don't mean to be a jerk about this but in an online Q&A RJ himself has confirmed that it was Semirhage who killed Asmodean**

Nope. RJ won't tell us who killed Asmodean, he specifically stated numerous times that he loves to watch us squirm. He only told us that someone on the web posted the correct killer with the correct line of reasoning to getting there (for the most part). If you continue to insist he said it was Semirhage, show me.

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Callandor: 2005-10-08

**Lanfear wouldn't waste a wish on killing Asmodean. I want to know people's reasoning behind her actually getting wishes. I mean, really, she's no more (even less actually) powerful than when she was pushed through the door and her sole ambition is power.**

Well, the reasoning that she got wishes, is that everyone we've seen entering Aelfinn or Eelfinnland has gotten wishes or answers. It's what the Finn do.

**She may not have tried to help him (of course) but she may have waited around hoping to score some cache material (which also explains why she's in a pantry).She appears or is spoken of 27 times before Asmo's death and 26 of those were in Fires of Heaven (per Theoryland book search of EotW-FoH). So she doesn't fail the 'obvious' theory.**

But, why would Graendal be in a place where she knows Rand is, when she fears him so much that she doesn't want him to ever come near her? The only reason she went to Illian with Rand there was that she had no choice. It was take a chance at getting caught removing evidence she was there -- or leave the evidence when Rand will for sure follow to attack her next. That's hardly a choice.

**Foreshadowing anyone?**

No, Moghedien is refering to Rand attacking Sammael in Illian -- so why would they be waiting in Caemlyn?

And since you love foreshadowing, how come Asmodean thinks of Lanfear, and how happy he is that she's "dead," just before dying?

**If you continue to insist he said it was Semirhage, show me.**

No point, Semirhage herself has said she didn't know what happened to Asmodean in her own POV.

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Traveller: 2005-10-09

From all we know of Finnland, the whole call-back thing doesn't really make sense.

People's wishes aren't granted instantly; Mat says his three wishes then he is let out of Finnland (unfortunately hanging from a tree as the price).

See? They don't get one wish, go, come back, get another wish, etc etc.

This is the fundamental problem for me with this.

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Callandor: 2005-10-10

**People's wishes aren't granted instantly; Mat says his three wishes then he is let out of Finnland (unfortunately hanging from a tree as the price).

See? They don't get one wish, go, come back, get another wish, etc etc.**

We don't know when exactly Mat's wishes were fulfilled since his POV ends just after he made the wishes. And, as I said in the theory, we've never seen someone say that they wanted to see a certain particular spot, so we don't know what the Eelfinn would do. Would they grant the wish, and then have the person ask the other two?

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ijokewaytoomuch: 2006-03-11

i think that the concept of a call back button is absurd and not well thought out. and even if they did transport her there why would they transport her into the closet where asmodean just happened to be going at the same time she arrived now im not sure who i think kill asmo because i seem to find fault in alot of theories i hear

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Callandor: 2006-03-11

**and even if they did transport her there why would they transport her into the closet where asmodean just happened to be going at the same time she arrived now**

Because she was vague in her wishes, and due to ta'veren effects. She said she wanted to meet a friend in Caemlyn (meaning Rand), and this was twisted to mean Asmodean; she said she wanted to not startle them and be out of the way, so the left her in a closet. You can argue whether it would be ta'veren effects from Rand about Asmodean coming in at that precise moment or if the Eelfinn just planned it that way to best meet the wishes.