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eroes and Horsies

by Kennycat: 2001-03-13 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous Theories

OK, as we all know from The Great Hunt, the heroes that are called back by the Horn of Valere ride horses that can walk on water. We also know from The Shadow Rising that the heroes who are bound to the Horn hang out in Tel'aran'rhiod waiting to be reborn (spun out) or respond to the Horn. In the same book we learn that domesticated animals aren't present in Tel'aran'rhiod and horses are specifically mentioned. Anyone see a problem here?

When the heroes are called by the Horn their horses come with them, but where the heck do these water-walking horses come from? We know that they can't hang out with their riders in Tel'aran'rhiod because it's been specifically mentioned to be a no-horsie area. And it's a fair supposition that walking on water is a pretty unusual thing for a horse to be doing, regardless of how special and heroic its rider may be.

In fact, the only horse we have ever seen in Tel'aran'rhiod is Bela, the shaggy mare and it is assumed that Egwene "constructed" her because she needed a horse while she was physically travelling through Tel'aran'rhiod. Now I don't really want to get into the whole Bela thing - that's a can of worms I WILL NOT open. Let's assume for the moment that the horse Egwene rode wasn't really Bela, but just her altering the world of dreams to suit her needs like clothes and mirrors and other handy things. If we can make that assumption for now, let's get on with it...

Horses used by heroes (or anyone else for that matter) are domesticated animals and, therefore, not represented in Tel'aran'rhiod. They can't go there, they can't live there, and they don't walk on water there or anywhere else. So we have to logically conclude that the horses ridden by the heroes summoned by the Horn of Valere were, like Bela, constructs of the will of their riders. And this is where it starts to get wierd.

The heroes who are bound to the Horn can create things in the real world (like horsies that walk on water for example) to help them accomplish the goals of the Hornblower (or Hornsounder if you prefer) and/or the Dragon Reborn. Or at the very least they can create these things in Tel'aran'rhiod and then keep them as they do their thing in the real world. So we can conclude that it is possible to create something in Tel'aran'rhiod and bring it out into the real world and have it continue to exist for a time.

Other examples of this might be the physical damage (that sister's hair that was burned during the nightmare in the dream-version of the White Tower) one takes with them from Tel'aran'rhiod when they are harmed there. The Forkroot tea effects on Moggy lead us to another note - that ANYONE (even Nynaeve, who is neither bound to the Horn nor a Dreamwalker) can accomplish this feat. The implications of this are very disturbing.

Now we know that Dreamwalking is very rare and that it has nothing to do with the One Power. Perrin can do it through his wolfbrotherhoodness, others fleetingly by mere chance. The only groups with any real time or depth of exposure to the dream world are the Aiel Wise Ones and the Forsaken. The fact that none of them regularly practice this "making and taking" may indicate some sort of deep-seated taboo on the practice or merely that they don't realize that it is possible. Or it could be like one of those "tricks" that the wilders pick up and guard jealously. Maybe the real reason that we don't know anything about this Talent is that the very few people who are capable of it don't want to share the knowledge so they warn people off about "dangers" and so forth.

So this is like another one of those lost Talents that everyone keeps groaning about having lost - the ability to use Tel'aran'rhiod like Felix the Cat's bag of tricks. Just physically reach into the dreamworld (even while awake since Dreamwalkers can do that) and pull out a rubber mallet or whatever you need. Notice that the WoT series is one of the very few fantasy works where there is no such thing as conjuring? One of the very staples of magic is the ability to produce things out of thin air, but noone in Jordan's world, even the Forsaken, seem to be able to do this.

Could it be that "making and taking" was one of those things that was supressed like Balefire was during the Age of Legends? But since noone during the Age of Legends seemed to do it, maybe it was supressed in a previous age, like the age when the portal stones and the treaties with the Finns were made. You know, legend fades to myth and even myth is forgotten etc. This would indicate that, like Balefire, there is a reason why its use has fallen into disfavor. I would posit that the Bag of Tricks Talent does exactly the opposite thing to the weave that Balefire does.

Where Balefire rips a thread out of the Pattern, "making and taking" actually weaves a new thread into it like embroidery - possibly with equally unpredictable and unpleasant results. Now this next part is getting a trifle thin, but remember that we still have like a gazillion books left in the series (feels that way sometimes, don't it?) Weaving a new thread into the pattern is, as I said before, like embroidery. So who is it that is constantly embroidering things? And what will she teach Rand and the Asha'man that they won't like learning? Verin is a Brown sister from Far Madding where that power-dampening field exists and she was in possession of the twisted stone ring Ter'angreal that let's you access Tel'aran'rhiod without touching the One Power - a handy thing to have if you live in Far Madding and need access to the world of dreams for research. And we know that Cadsuane has been through Far Madding in the past where she caused some sort of ruckus. Both sisters seem to have hidden agendas as far as Rand is concerned and both refer to having made mysterious "mistakes" in the past.

Cadsuane and Verin both possess this Talent and their agenda is to get Rand to use this "Pattern Embroidery" to repair the Bore instead of sealing it up. Remember that the Bore is a hole in the Pattern and the seal that Lews Therin placed over it is just a patch of sorts. This newly discovered (or rediscovered) Talent is what Rand and his crew (note that Elayne has pretty much started mass-producing copies of the stone ring Ter'angreal - all part of the plan) need to learn in order to finally defeat the Dark One by reweaving the Pattern around him. And having Cadsuane for a teacher is enough reason for anyone to not like learning something, but there is probably a horrible price attached to using this Talent that we don't know about yet.

Choke on that, you fiends! That one goes out especially to anyone who has ever posted anything about Taim really being Demandred.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2001-03-13

Wow, okay I see where you are coming from. For example, Moghedien made something physical, Birgitte, come out of T'A'R. Moghedien apparently knows how to do it, but it doesn't seem like the Forsaken have tried to do anything beyond that. And if your idea was valid you would think the Forsaken would have tried to do it...or maybe Jordan doesn't realize what he has made possible through describing certain parts of Tel'aran'rhoid.

Comments, anyone?

2

Elberyn Delumen: 2002-11-18

Though your theory is very interesting, I doubt it will come to pass as you say. First, re-weaving the pattern takes an enormous amount of skill, which is why the only "weaver" in the WoT is the Creator. Second, re-weaving the pattern wouldn't really end the battle. It would just make for an infinite waar because the Forsaken could just as easily un-weave their weaves with balefire or what ever Mierin used in the AoL. As a result, we would have an infinite opening and closing of bores...

Therefore, Rand has to use something else to seal the bore, something that is resistent to the Power. Lews Therin used cuendillar which is simply strengthened by the Power. Rand might try the same thing or go a different way.

3

Drekan: 2002-12-10

I like the theory, but I find one problem with it, right at the start. The horn doesn't recreate the heros from TAR, it merely brings them out for a time. They are still linked to TAR. The horsies are probably a function of the horn, so that the horn can be blown outside of a battle, then the heros can ride into battle, which is so much more heroic than walking there.

4

Jalt Varyd: 2003-10-24

Even if you discount the Horses of the Horn, there's still the forkroot to consider. I know that what happens to people in Tel'aran'rhiod affects them in the real world, so, for example, if someone is stabbed he is really injured even though a knife doesn't appear in the real world. However forkroot wears off as it leaves the system (or whatever), so if it didn't appear in the real world, shouldn't it have stopped affecting Moghedien as soon as she left Tel'aran'rhiod? The tea caused her to leave the World of Dreams immediately, so she would have plenty of time to wake up. (I'm reffering to her capture in Salidar, of course).

5

Elder Haman: 2003-10-25

Horses are explained above in previous responses. Physical damage occurs to people from the real world. They are real already, and the WofD is only changing them- there's alot of discussion about this in the books, and it sounds like a mental thing (ie I believe it happened to me so it did).

The only true evidence of this transfer of someting from the WofD to the real world is Birgitte. This was done by a Forsaken- it appears that it was not easy- and was almost definatly evil. So I don't we should worry much about it.

Also, Birgitte is also from the real world- she's not something created in the WofD and then taken out- so we have never seen anything like what you are suggesting is possible.

6

Cor Shan: 2003-10-25

Anyone notice that the HotH and the TAR physical gate look identical? [opaque mist] The Horses could be linked to the horn too, although passivly through the Heroes. Look at Bela. She is :

1) more important than Perrin, as he wasn't in tFoH.

2) Her opening words will come later than the Dark Ones.

LOL I think my Saidin wasn't cleansed properly *glares at everyone who name is Rand, Dragon, or anything like that*

7

Murrin: 2003-10-26

I believe that in blowing the Horn, Mat brings part of tel'aran'rhiod (the part that keeps the heroes there) and the real world together temorarily. While this occurs, the Heroes have some control over their surroundings (i.e. they create horses to ride) and can do things that can only be done in t'a'r - like ride across water, fire arrows that set ships on fire instantly, etc.

When they have completed the task they were summoned for, the connection between the two worlds is severed and they returned fully to t'a'r.

8

brigitta: 2003-11-24

I've a question I've been thinking about: why didn't Perrin get sucked into any of Failes dreams like Egwene was? He does knof of the place in TAR, where the dreams are, remember when Hopper led him to eavesdrop on some chosen... that seemed to me a lot like that place, of cource I might be wrong, but... still by now he should have at least stumbled into the dreams... maybe Faile just doesn't love him enough?

9

Zaela Sedai: 2003-11-24

I don't believe that Perrin has ever gone to the place between TAR and the waking world. (the place where you go to find someone's dream) Whether he can't or doesn't know about it is yet to be known. Birgitte talks to him in one of his dreams and shows him places like below:

TITLE: Shadow Rising, CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei

The woman seemed vaguely familiar, though Perrin was certain he would have remembered her had he ever seen her before. Who was she, to be in the wolf dream? Or was it Moiraine's Tel'aran'rhiod, too? "Are you Aes Sedai?" "No, archer." She laughed. "I only came to warn you, despite the prescripts. Once entered, the Tower of Ghenjei is hard enough to leave in the world of men. Here it is all but impossible. You have a bannerman's courage, which some say cannot be told from foolhardiness."

But he has never been in anyone's dreams but his own. (If you can call TAR your own dream)

10

Zarine: 2004-05-05

Who the heck cares where the heroes got their horses!!! I admit, you'v done a good job of trying to make it relevant, but do you really think RJ put so much thought into the fact of mentioning horses? Honestly, sometimes you (as in everyone who submits theories and such) put way, way to much weight on little, trivial things. I really don't think RJ put as much though into it, and surely didn't expect anyone to read much into the fact that the heroes had horses. I mean, come on!