livia & Rand
by Aaron Wrightsman: 2000-12-08 | 6 out of 10 (4 votes)
I was thinking of the viewing Minn saw about Alivia, that she was going to help Rand die, and was wondering how and why? Well, there are two possibilities to consider- one, that she is a darkfriend, (although her behavior makes that seem unlikely.) And two, she helps him die for some reason that is ultimately good.
Just to keep this short, I am going to assume that she isn't a friend of the dark. So, why would she help Rand die? What good could possibly come of his death? One idea that crossed my mind is that some time in the future, possibly after the last battle, Rand becomes infected somehow with the dark one's taint. Not Saidin, Rand personally. He begins to be affected by it, and like the wound in his side, healing is useless. This is where Alivia comes in. With her vast knowledge of how to kill things, she uses (possibly) the shadar logoth dager as a means to combat the other evil, but in doing so, slowly kills him. Only the shadar logoth evil has been proven to destroy the dark one's evil, and shadar logoth being destroyed, only fain and the dagger still remain.
The other end to my idea is that Nyneave is present and uses some sort of healing to bring Rand back at the critical point, once the two evils have killed themselves, and he is healed normally.
This theory was sparked in part by a quote on page 446 of Winter's heart. It seems a little too accurate to be just an offhand comment, given Min's viewing later in the book.
Alivia:
"You could get yourself killed like that," she said disaprovingly. "You have too much to do to get killed yet. You must let us help."
He[Rand] frowned at the door closing behind her. "Have you had any viewings about her, Min?"
She says this as she and Nyneave are leaving the room, so the "us" might refer to the two women. "to much to do to get killed yet" and "you must let us help" go along with my theory.
I don't know if this option of why Alivia heplps Rand die has been discussed yet, but those are my thoughts on the matter.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2000-12-08
I think Min would know if it was something "bad" so apparently he is supposed to die in the Last Battle. But maybe he won't be strong enough to do what he needs to do to die and Alivia helps him understand. If he dies then he can live, like the Finns say, so I would say it's a good thing.
2
profesor: 2002-11-19
I really think that alivia will help in getting rid of lews therin from rand's head, that's what I think Min means when she says that alivia will help in rand's death, or the dragon reborn's death.
3
Callandor: 2002-12-11
I dont know about any of you others but I personally think that Rand will fake his death and that Alivia will help him accomplish this. Maybe she will learn the Mirrors of Mists or something and will keep Rand hidden and while hes out of the picture the fracturing of the Black Tower will occur.
But hey, whatever happens I just hope im not right. I wouldnt want to ruin it by thinking! :-)
4
nacova tear: 2002-12-13
If i am not mistaken isn't rand supposed to die then come back to life? maybe alivia is just there to help him fulfill the prophesies. just an idea!
5
Anubis: 2003-01-18
"To live, you must die" Now the DO wants rand to not die, so maybe helping him die would not be a bad thing. Maybe its in rands best interests.
6
Hel: 2003-03-18
I think Callandor is right.
Let's look at exactly what Min and then Rand say:
"Rand, I like Alivia...But she is going to kill you."
"You said she was going to help me die," he said quietly. "Those were your words."
The above quote implies that what Min said after first seeing the vision was that Alivia would "help Rand die."
The word "kill" definately leaves little room for interpretation, but helping someone die could mean helping some die as an illusion.
Remember: Min is NEVER wrong, but I am of the firm belief that Rand, if he does die eventually, will die in some dramatic fashion at the end of Tarmon Gai'don.
7
Hydraan Sedai: 2003-03-18
Has anybody ever read Henry IV? Shakespeare. Well, King Henry ((IV)) was forced into a battle against the rebels to the throne. Henry deployed decoys, wearing his clothes, his armour and so on. Well, perhaps Alivia sets herself up as a Rand-decoy, with the Mirrors of Mist. Alivia would then help Rand "die".
Did Min ever specify whether Rand died, or the Dragon Reborn died, or just the Dragon? The Dragon is LTT, and if Min saw Alivia help the Dragon die, Rand might have nothing to do with it.
Lots of mights and coulds....Tut tut
8
Weird Harold: 2003-03-20
Hydraan Sedai 2003-03-18:
Has anybody ever read Henry IV? ... Henry deployed decoys, .... Well, perhaps Alivia sets herself up as a Rand-decoy, with the Mirrors of Mist.
You would have to add ANOTHER plausible possibility to the debate. :( I don't think it's very likely, but it plausible and could easily be made to fit Min's viewing.
Did Min ever specify whether Rand died, or the Dragon Reborn died, ...
Alivia's entire involvement in Rand's death is quoted above. One of Min's other viewings about Rand was something about him merging someone and one of them would die. That may, or may not, be related to Rand's death assisted by Alivia.
The *finn prediction, "to live you must die," probably *is* related to Alivia's involvement, but which of the TWO deaths Rand is fated for is she involved in. Is Rand even fated to die twice?
How does the line "Twice to live and twice to die" from the Prophecy section predicting his Heron brands and Dragon tattoos fit into Alivia's involvement?
How does the Fisher King in Moridin's Sha'ra game fit? If the Fisher King is lost, then the nature of the game changes completely.
Whatever Alivia does to, or for, Rand has to fit most, if not all, of the Prophecies and foreshadowings.
9
Jiana: 2003-04-05
I posted this under the Ilyena theory, but just in case you didn't see it... In ACoS, chapter Unseen Eyes, Egwene has a Dream of Logain stepping over Rand's body, mounting a black stone, smiling. This, I think, is Logain's glory from Min's viewing. In the Dream, Egwene leaned down to touch Rand's face, and it "broke apart like a paper puppet." I think this strongly suggests that Alivia is going to help Rand fake his death.
10
Weird Harold: 2003-04-07
Just a random thought here.
Rand has four distinctive marks that he has to hide when he wants to go unnoticed -- two of them are tattoos; the dragons on his arms and hands.
The Seanchan use tattos extensively.
Perhaps Alivia knows how to remove Tattoos? That would "help Rand to die" by removing he marks that would expose his death as a fake.
11
Callandor: 2003-04-08
When Rand was in Far Madding all he had to do was wear gloves and a coat.
If she removed the Dragons then that takes away from the prophacey and then it could lead to Rand being declared a fake himself, and that would be very bad in my mind.
12
Jiana: 2003-04-12
Yes, Callandor, but possibly tattoos will be removed AFTER the LB, if Rand survives. That way, he would be able to return to some semblance of a normal life, without all the attention and animosity that would surround the Dragon.
13
araqyl: 2003-04-24
I see a slight problem with the tattoo removal thing - Rand's dragons are not tattoos, they are a part of him. This comes up when one of the clan chiefs is hanged in Cairhien for killing a man who did get tattoo copies; "a thing of needles and inks" is how he refers to them, iirc.
14
Brighid: 2003-06-01
At one point when the 'rebel' Aes Sedai are still in Salidar, the new novice, Nicola, (whom I would personally like to give a few good wallops with a flow of Air to), has a little burst of Foretelling, and she sees Rand dead/near dead on a bier or boat with three woman standing around him, but I definitely remember getting the impression that he was either not quite dead, or that his death was not 'final'. Something about the future balancing on a knife point. I definitely believe that the series will not just end with him defeating or being defeated by the DO.
15
Callandor: 2003-06-01
RJ has said that he wouldn't tie up all lose ends in the series.
The line is **he who is dead, yet lives**. In my mind that makes it the most clear that Rand dies in the LB and his soul, the thing that makes him the Dragon Reborn, will live on to be reborn into the next Dragon.
16
Shadow Bane: 2003-06-20
I would just like to say in response to Callandors last posting. I think your right but the state Rand's soul will take in T'A'R will be his own not LTT's so that he will be remembered in a way.
17
sarutobi: 2005-05-10
I believe that the quote "He who is dead, yet lives" is just the fact that after the last battle the dragon will die yet rand al'thor will live on. When i say the dragon dies i just mean that Rand will rid himself of all the glory of being the lord dragon and he will just be rand al'thor once again.
