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aim is not Demandred's proxy

by WinespringBrother: 2004-06-07 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: The Black Tower

I figured this is not worth a faction, since Taim seems to have enough in that way. However, I found some quotes that seem to indicate in the very least that he is definitely not Demandred's proxy:

By all the reasoning I've seen, Taim is supposedly working for Demandred, as his proxy. And Mesaana was the one who tried to kidnap Rand and take him to the Tower. She is the only one that Sammael confirmed to Graendal that was definitely involved in the kidnapping which makes sense since her power base is the White Tower. Yet think about this quote which contradicts that assertion totally. Makes you think about which Forsaken are plotting against others and which are making good faith efforts at least.

Winter's Heart CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

"Where is he?" Demandred growled, clenching his fists behind his back. Standing with his feet apart, he was aware that he dominated the room. He always did. Even so, he wished Semirhage or Mesaana were present. Their alliance was delicate-a simple agreement that they would not turn on one another until the others had been eliminated-yet it had held all this time. Working together, they had unbalanced opponent after opponent, toppling many to their deaths or worse. But it was difficult for Semirhage to attend these meetings, and Mesaana had been shy, of late. If she was thinking of ending the alliance. . . ."Al'Thor has been seen in five cities, including that cursed place in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those blind fools-those idiots!-failed in Cairhien. And that only includes the reports we have! The Great Lord only knows what else is crawling toward us by horse, or sheep, or whatever else these savages can find to carry a message."


So Demandred thinks to himself that he at least has held up his end of their agreement. And there's no reason to think he would lie to himself. That directly conflicts with the assertion that proxy Taim screwed up Mesaana's plot.

And unless Demandred is asleep at the wheel, how could he not know that Mesaana is behind the kidnapping? Especially since Mesaana told Demandred in person that she had a plan to have Rand captured and in her possession in the White Tower:

Lord of Chaos CH: Prologue - The First Message

"I am still waiting to hear what the Great Lord said," Semirhage murmured. "Yes. Are we to kill al'Thor?" Mesaana realized she was gripping her skirt with both hands and let go. Strange. She never let anyone get under her skin. "If all goes well, in two months, three at most, he will be where I can safely reach him, and helpless." "Where you can safely reach him?" Graendal arched an eyebrow quizzically. "Where have you made your lair? No matter. Bare as it is, it's as good a plan as I've heard lately."


Therefore, if Taim, as Demandred's supposed proxy interfered with Mesaana's plan, which Demandred clearly knew about since she told him her plot personally, then Demandred broke the compact. That conflicts with the thought POV Demandred had in WH, where he reflects that he has basically kept his side of the bargain. So Taim must have been working on his own, not for Demandred, when he rescued Rand.

Another problem with the Proxy theory:

Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

Another point pricked him. The Great Lord already knew how Rahvin had died. And seemed to know more of Asmodean than he. "As you command, Great Lord, so shall I obey." His muscles might be jerking, but his voice was rock steady. His knees began to blister from the hot stone, yet the flesh might as well have been someone else's.


If proxy Taim killed Asmodean, then why didn't Demandred find out before this meeting with the Great Lord?
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2004-09-03

Excellent points. Man, the plots and those pulling the strings seem to get more convoluted, the longer Jordan makes us wait. I am starting to buy into the Taim/Ishamael connection. You have convinced me, Taim is not a proxy of Demandred.

2

Dorindha: 2004-09-03

Yes, it seems pretty conclusive. However, Taim and Demandred have (though in view of this, unconsciously) been known to work towards the same goal - the killing of Rand in WH. This does support your theory - that if they'd been working together, they wouldn't both have ordered Kisman et al to do the deed - but the way that passage has been written does give some credence to the proxy theory.

3

Chrono: 2004-09-03

"Al'Thor has been seen in five cities, including that cursed place in the Waste, and a dozen towns since those blind fools-those idiots!-failed in Cairhien."

I would like to point out that Demandrad refers to the people trying to kill Rand a nd failling as fools and idiots, the way it is worded, says in my opinion he means they are fools and idiots because they failed, therefore perhaps he ordered them.

4

Callandor: 2004-09-03

**If proxy Taim killed Asmodean, then why didn't Demandred find out before this meeting with the Great Lord?**

Because Taim didn't kill Asmodean...?

5

Tamin: 2004-09-05

I'm just throwing an idea out here. Maybe the ban on killing Rand hasn't really been lifted. Yes, Moridin said it was ok to kill him to prevent him cleansing the taint, but I'd guess that things are back to normal since the Forsaken failed there.

People seem to assume that the ban was lifted when the Asha'man were ordered to kill Rand. But then, why was it so very terrible for them to allow themselves to be found out?

Both Taim and Demandred expounded on the importance of not being found out when ordering Kisman, if I remember correctly. If they are working together, then they both wanted Rand dead badly enough to secretly break the ban and make the attempt via renegade Asha'man, without telling each other.

So maybe there is still a ban on killing Rand, now that the battle at SH is over.

6

Great Lord of the Dark: 2004-09-07

WSB, what about if Demandred doesn't feel he has betrayed the plan, because the DO's orders were to free Rand? Demandred might guess that Mesaana's part was to hold him, and Demandred/Taim's to free him, so that he could be hardened and turned against the Aes Sedai. It's possible for Taim to have done what he did under orders. We haven't seen Mesaana get chewed out for failing to bring Rand back, have we? Even Alviarin uses it to her advantage, but seems relatively unworried about the fact that Rand is loose again.

Proxy Taim could have been doing exactly what the DO wanted. And all participants could have known, even though they'd rather kill Rand.

7

SugarBullet: 2004-09-07

Stop me if this has already been talked out, but since the ish/taim proxy possibility has been mentioned above, have we considered that Taim might be more than just proxy? Could he be Ishamael's offsping? I'm not saying it's likely, just conceivable. Given how that Ish did so many other things when loose in the world, it's a fairly natural question to ask whether he sowed more than just seeds of chaos, eh? Sorry, no quotes here, just pure speculation.

8

Callandor: 2004-09-07

**Stop me if this has already been talked out, but since the ish/taim proxy possibility has been mentioned above, have we considered that Taim might be more than just proxy? Could he be Ishamael's offsping?**

Err... you mean Taim being Ishamael's son? Or just a student of his?

I personally favor Taim being taught by Ishamael, before declaring himself the Dragon Reborn (chaos, chaos; small steps). Ishamael, having made himself a pretty important student, gave him the black cords, which has allowed him to be able to channel for 15 years or so without showing any signs of madness (please, don't try to tell me that because Logain has gone 6 years with out any real signs, that Taim could go twice and a half that with absolutely no signs at all). Once Ishamael died, Demandred took him up as his proxy.

Btw, Taim is in no way Moridin. It has been supposed that since Moridin has been reigning in the Forsaken, he would be exhuming control over the reborn Forsaken (Aran'gar and Osan'gar) asap. Since Osan'gar is at the Black Tower, then Taim is by extention Moridin.

This, however, makes absolutely no sense.

1. Simple timing does not work out (Ishamael died TDR; Moridin first appears ACOS; we have no indication of him being alive prior to then).

2. Conflicting orders between the 4 rebel Asha'man (well, Moridin's talk could be specifically to Kisman, but most likely refers to all four). If Moridin was Taim, there would be no reason for him to repeat his orders, and then to change them in almost all entirety.

3. Dashiva (Osan'gar) surprised Taim by participating in the Cairhien attack against Rand. If Moridin had control of Osan'gar, who openly admits his total fear of Moridin to his own POV in WH, he would have TOTAL control; IE: Osan'gar would not go vaulting over to kill Rand, without Moridin's orders, and hence Moridin, as Taim, would've already announced his rebellion against the Black Tower to Rand the same way he did with the true 4 rebels. He didn't do this. He was surprised instead.

9

Tamin: 2004-09-08

One small nitpick, Callandor... I heard it said somewhere that Jordan stated that it is possible for a man to last 15 years with the taint, and I wouldn't say that Taim shows no traces whatsoever of the madness.

10

Gambler86: 2004-09-10

I totally sgree with this. I always thought that after finding out that Masema was meeting secretly with the Seanchan that he was the proxy of Demandred and/or Semi.

11

Callandor: 2004-09-10

**One small nitpick, Callandor... I heard it said somewhere that Jordan stated that it is possible for a man to last 15 years with the taint, and I wouldn't say that Taim shows no traces whatsoever of the madness.**

Where's the nitpick? You've heard of it; where is the quote?

Taim shows madness? Of what kind? Arrogance? Heck, the Forsaken aren't mad, and they have a spectacular filling of arrogance. Maliciousness? Once again, look at the Forsaken. They are not "mad" in the sense that other male channelers are/have gone mad.

Stating once more, Taim does not show any truely dedicated signs of madness. Him talking to someone not there (like Egwene say Rand do) would be quite suspicious. There aren't any. As far as we know, Mazrim Taim is completely, and utterly, sane and not mad. And that is the problem with him not being mad; he should be.

12

Ashaman: 2008-02-07

I think that u r all forgetting the seal to the DOs prison. Taim just handed it to Rand.if Taim was Demandred or a dark friend I think that he would have broken it the first chance he got. isnt that the most important thing to the forsaken - the darkone free.

13

WinespringBrother: 2010-11-12

This theory is looking pretty good now, thanks to Brandon's Q&A from Harvard (11/7/2010). Note - there is a slight Towers of Midnight spoiler.

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=124754&postcount=10

Q: Was Demandred or his proxy in this ToM.
A: No he was not, he will be in MoL.

Since Taim was on-screen in TofM, this answer would seem to validate the theory. Though it does still leave open the questions of what is Taim's agenda, and who are Demandred's proxies. Questions for another theory!

14

MarieAnz: 2010-11-12

A few quick comments to the above:
1) Logain does not appear to show signs of madness either
2) Elaida was overbearing and as close to the "clinical" definition of evil (scapegoating, unable to face criticism, etc.) as you can get without having pledged her soul to the dark one. Not all evil is a result of the Shadow. (This isn;t saying I don;t think Tain is working for Moridin, 'cause I do think he is, just pointing out it does not have to be a conclusion of that line of thinking.
3) interesting point from ToM: the Borderlanders claimed that if Rand were not the Dragon, another would rise to take his place. Logain?

15

Joar Addam Ness0sin: 2010-11-13

How has no one mentioned the dreamspike over the black tower, the one which moridin said he had a purpose for in the begining, Taim is at the least a friend of the dark who do you think gave it to him?