shmael is Moridin is Taim
by Sei'taer: 2001-01-06 | 2 out of 10 (6 votes)
Let me start off with some quotes we all know and love. It may seem strange at first, but you will see soon enough where I am going.
1)Lord of Chaos- "You must hold on," Taim said softly, "If sanity can be held, you must. The price is too high, if you fail."
2)Pg 103, Lord of Chaos, Rands PoV- "It was not much short of what Rand could manage, unaided. But the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain.
3)Moridins PoV, prologue, PoD- "On the board, the Fisher stood waiting, but in the greater game, al'Thor moved already to his wishes. And soon now...It was hard to lose a game when you played both sides of the board."
4)aCoS, Moridin meets Rand in SL- "it seems you have luck enough for ten men", and "you have the Dark One's own luck"
5)aCoS, Moridin in SL- "A great many plans will have to be relaid, if you let yourself be killed now."
6)LoC, prologue, Demandred- "The first part of the Great Lords message was simple. Let the lord of chaos rule. His words exact."
First of all, we know that Taim is very strong. When he and Rand first meet, Rand comments on the strength of Taim. We all know that Taim has some strange ways about him, almost as if he is from the AoL. The comments about the so called Aes Sedai and such. We also know that Bashere thinks Taim looks different from the man he saw when he was hunting the false Dragon. We know that Taim does not like the idea of training with swords, something that Demandred would be more than accepting of. I think that Taim is so strong, and not going insane because he already is insane, because from the facts I have put together, it appears that the person most suited to being Taim is Ishydin. By working alone and using the mask of mirrors he is able to become Taim and watch Dashiva'gar and Demandred. He is also in a reasonable position to know what Rand is doing, and he is able to stir up chaos in the Back Tower. He has ties to Moggy through Cynfear, and Graendal is not exactly making trouble for anyone and it seems that she so fears Ishydin that he might as well have her soul in a cour'souvra.
We have to remember that Ishy is basically working alone as Nae'blis, yes, he has some control over a few of the Forsaken and Cynfear is most definitely his, but Demmy and the 'gars are basically out of reach to him, Ishy has to be able to keep up with the other forsaken. He has to prove them insufficient to the Great Lord, and be able to stay as the Nae'blis.
As Taim, he gets orders from Demmy for the Asha'man to kill Rand. He sees advantage in this and tells them to do it. Knowing that if Rand gets away, and he probably will, he will immediately go after Dashiva'gar and the rest and eliminate them. Ishy then gains a little more control over Demmy's screw up and eliminates Dashiva'gar, another strong Forsaken, in the process.
The best way to stay in power and keep the GL happy is for him to spread Chaos throughout the world and also eliminate any threat to himself. The more powerful the person he eliminates the less chance of them taking his position from him, and as he says..."when you play both sides of the board..."
You cannot rate theories without first logging in. Please
log in.
1
Tamyrlin: 2001-01-06
I think I have seen this theory one other place and to tell you the truth, it never crossed my mind because of all of the focus on Demandred over the last five or six years. But now that is over, this becomes more feasible. Wouldn't that be crazy, I like it, I would even join this faction because it makes sense...although, Demandred made even more sense, yet it wasn't, but now many things he said would fit for Moridin too.
2
Darren: 2002-11-08
Umm... if Taim was Moridin, he would have the saa in his eyes all the time.
3
Therilon: 2002-11-14
I do not think that he would have to have the saa. If he wove an illusion to show normal eyes, and if he inverted the weave, then the saa wouldn't show.
Still, I believe that Taim is just a false Dragon. He may be moving to the machinations of the Chos- err, Forsaken, but he is probable just a 'normal' person.
4
Elberyn Delumen: 2002-11-14
About the saa, they only appear when you channel the True Power, so Ishamael wouldn't have to do any of that.
I think a possible problem with your theory is that Taim appears in Caemlyn before we first hear of Moridin. Of course we don't know how long Moridin had been around before he was presented but it does make the theory a bit shaky.
5
pointyman: 2002-11-15
But after using the TP a lot, the saa will appear all of the time. If your theory is correct, he could of course use a MoM.
However, I think it more likely that Taim is a non-Forsaken Dreadlord, under the command of Demandred.
6
Darren: 2002-12-13
There is NO evidence that the saa only appear when you channel the TP... it mentions only that they "appear as a result of channeling the TP" and that the frequency of their appearance is indicative of frequency of use of the TP... If you can provide me an instance where it explicitly links saa to the specific instant of touching the TP, I'd love to see it. But you won't. Also, as to inverting an illusion over the eyes, there are several problems to that, but let's just mention one. This is not a birthmark you are trying to conceal, but a direct result of the TP manifesting in the individual, they are, in short, stigmata of the Dark One's touch. I'm not sure what would happen when TP met OP, but I don't know that I'd be putting MY eyes to the test by combining the two all the time... Secondly, has no one wondered why Ba'alzamon's eyes were fire all the time in the first place?
Sorry, but Moridin is Moridin.
7
silverwolf: 2002-12-29
As to what happens when OP meets TP, we have seen it. At the end of ACoS Moridin saves Rand's life in Shadar Logoth. They both balefire the same piece of Mashadar, and the balefires meet. Both become disoriented, and Rand gets dizzy whenever embracing the source after this. (Note: the dizziness might not have anything to do with OP meeting TP--it could simply result from two balefire streams colliding)
8
Daishan: 2003-01-11
I have always found that last instance very strange. The TP is drawn directly from the DO, and thus is the DO's "essence". But I think the same could be said of the taint. Or has been said by a lot of people; that the taint is that part of the DO that got "trapped" in the Sealing of the Bore. So if they're both the DO's essence, how do we view this? Is it like, his blood as opposed to his bowel fluids?
9
Darren: 2003-01-11
That passage is only definitive of balefire meeting balefire, but if it WERE OP meeting TP, then it certainly goes against the absurd notion of inverting a weave over the eyes...
You might suggest that it's a TP weave (and therefore not necessarily even inverted,) but this seems highly unlikely. Let's see some solid textual evidence to support this notion, not just, what could "possibly" be. Was it Heraclitus who said that opinion without evidence was gossip?
10
Dedicated: 2003-02-13
I think Taim is simply a Dreadlord under the command of Demadred. Moridin could not have been Taim, as Taim appeared before we were introduced to Moridin and learned his abilities and who he was.
Now the saa issue is solved by a quote from Moggy when she meets Moridin for the first time.
"'What is your name?' she demanded. 'Do you have any idea who you are speaking to?'
'Yes I do, Moghedien. You may call me Moridin." Moghedien gasped. Not for the name; any fool could call himself Death. But a tiny black fleck, just large enough to see, floated across one of those blue eyes and then across the other in the same line. This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once."
So the saa might appear involuntarily. The saa is really apparent at the time the TP is channeled, as Moridin mentions the saa "making a blizzard" across his vision as he taps the TP.
11
HunterofTrollocs: 2003-04-08
Didn't Rand kill Ishy with balefire? or was it just fire? i can't remember. if it was balefire, then this theory is pointless. but i could be true if it was just fire. I also agree that the saa would be in Taim's eyes all the time if Taim is Moridin.
12
Callandor: 2003-04-12
No Rand didnt balefire Ishamael. Ishamael has been reborn as Moridin and is now Nae blis. It was Belal that was balefired and it was by Moiraine not Rand. Rand has only balefired Ravhin.
13
araqyl: 2003-04-30
I'm still doubtful that any male Forsaken could hide their true nature from Rand - he knows about the Black Threads that give protection from the DO's Taint, having removed them from Asmodean personally, and iirc he could see them whenever he embraced the Power - which he has done quite frequently around Taim, although not so much in recent days...
14
Mashiara: 2003-04-30
"As Taim, he gets orders from Demmy"
Wait a sec. Ishamael, the Nae'blis, takes orders from Demandred? I don't think that's right...
Taim really doesn't resemble Ishy at all. Ishy's a philosopher, not a warrior--I think he would bring that to whatever alter ego he had. Plus, Ishy seems to prefer working alone or through Moggy and Cyndane. And unlike Demmy or Sammy, Ishy was never, ever even nominally second to anyone besides the DO.
But, sure, it's possible. I think, however, that Taim is Taim...can't a guy draw a lot of saidin without being accused of being a Forsaken? RJ is probably getting a lot of laughs over this and the Graendal thing.
15
Wolfblade: 2003-05-25
Reviewing what everyone evidence and from what I have read is that Taim is not Ishy but a Dreadlord and maybe a new forsaken who will take the place of Rahvin.
16
The Leveler: 2003-05-26
Taim is no Dreadlord. He's just a guy who wants power. He's a man who can channel so 'I am the Dragon Reborn!" When he was talking with Rand Rand said that he had failed the first Prophecy (being born on Dragonmount). Taim said that if he had taken Callandor "the heavens wolud have opened up to proclaim my being born on Dragonmount...". This means he thinks that any man who can channel could've taken Callandor, and it was just his bad luck that he didn't get to it first. Demandred would've known if Taim was a Darkfriend, and had ordered Rand's death.
17
Korell: 2003-05-27
I think this is a pretty cool idea this is first time reading this theory and it is certainly interesting as the Tamyrlin said now that the Taimodred theory has been debunked however my only thought on this is that Moridin is perhaps too addicted to the TP to go back to using the OP it would probly be like taking advil for years then taking somthing like hydrocodone for a month then trying to take advil again the advil only relives some of the aches and pains but the cod would relive more of it. this is just a thought but i like the theory it is certainly interesting it has potential to be true...however i am still in the camp that Taim is potentially a new Forsaken or atleast a dreadlord but you never know just have to RAFO lol
18
rubbernilly: 2003-05-27
I think this theory *should* be true... because then we'd have the really cool combo name of "Ishamaim."
Or maybe that would be "Ishamaimidin," or "Ishamaimoridin."
But, alas, I don't think that is enough to power this theory. (After all, Taim is at the Tower whenever Rand visits; how could he manage that *and* be gallavanting off as Moridin?)
19
Saldean Farm Boy: 2004-07-29
I also think this is a really unique idea, can anyone think of any conflicts where we know Moridin and Taim were in different places at the same time?
20
sarutobi: 2005-05-08
I may be wierd but i agree that taim is just a guy thats drunk with power and is going to try and dethrone rand. I think its one of those to obvious to be true things that he a forsaken or even a darkfriend.
21
ValaV: 2007-01-27
Uhm, Ba'alzamon is Ishmael. Who was severed from saidin by Rand in the final page of Chapter 55, "What is written in Prophecy", TDR book 3.
That said, he is not Taim.
1. Being severed "stilled" from the One power cannot be healed according to Mogheiden as Marigan. 1st quarter of Prologue, LoC book 6. So Ishy/Moridin is still severed and can only touch or use the True Power. Taim can use the One Power.
2. After the dark one gave Ishmael a new body, the link to the one power was not re-established. Just as Aran'gar uses saidin still, even though he is in a woman's body thus the spirit reincarnated does not gain new ablities with the power.
The thing that has me confused, and I'll have to see if there's already a theory string on this is. Does Balefire really kill someone. Or just erase thier existance up to a point. Cause Moridin has 11 chairs set up for a meeting in KoD chp. 3. when only 9 were needed.
22
minalth: 2007-01-31
I believe that Moridin laid out the extra chairs to shake the forsaken so that they might be more easily manipulated
23
minalth: 2007-01-31
Sorry I didn't explain that very well
the extra chairs remind the forsaken that they are not invincible and are being killed which is what shakes them
24
Gandelail: 2007-01-31
While I agree that Moridin/Ishy is not Taim, I don't quite agree with your reasoning, ValaV
"1. Being severed "stilled" from the One power cannot be healed according to Mogheiden as Marigan. 1st quarter of )) Prologue, LoC book 6. So Ishy/Moridin is still severed and can only touch or use the True Power. Taim can use the )) One Power."
While Moghedien does say that stilling cannot be healed, we are eventually disabused of the notion that it is impossible, as we see both men and women who have been severed, suddenly channeling again after
Nynaeve heals them. I don't think anyone "healed" Ishy/Moridin of his severing though. Transmigration of a soul to a new body (of the opposite gender) does not change which half of the one power is channeled.
But I'm not sure what the effect would be on ones severed connection to the power. Is the channel that is severed related to the body, or to the soul? I am inclined to believe it is part of the body, since the cut can be healed. If it is part of the body, all that would be required is for Moridin to be transmigrated into the body of a man or woman who could channel, as long as the new body was not also severed, you could channel the one power again. I may be mistaken, and I am positive that I will be corrected if I'm wrong, but these are just my thoughts on the matter. Also, as far as I understand, balefire does both of the things you're confused about. Depending on the strength of the balefire, it erases the weaving of that thread in the pattern futher and further back as the strength of the balefire increases. But regardless of how far back it burns their thread, they are DEAD DEAD DEAD. There have been lengthy discussions about Moridins 11 chairs, would be worth reading. :)
Have a great day!
25
lordoftwilight: 2007-02-01
ONe major problem with the severing of Ishmeal is that Cundane whom everyone thinks is Lanfear's newbody/name, is much weaker then Lanfear so maybe the DO can heal or dipel the ability to channel to some extent seeing that he is a "creating force of the world". So then Ishy could be Moridin and could easily project hemself to be in the blacktower as Taim which I am sure is just like a wave of mask of mirror's. ALso he could talk through something like the ter'angreal that Avindah finds out are for talking to people far away all I haven't figured out yet is if it would be hard to concentrates. Since Morodin probaly knows when Rand is coming he can easily take the place of the illusion since Ishmeal was almost as powerful or just as powerful as Lew Therin telamon in the age of legends.
(on a sidenote here would;nt be an interesting theory ti find out why Ishmeal converted to the DO and how he betrayed hope).
So there my reply and possible solution since I believe that Ishmeal was reincarnated as Morridin and is acting as or puputtering an image of Taim
26
Anaiya: 2007-02-02
I think Taim has been turned by the shadow and is not Moridin. Taim was introduced to Rand waaay before moridin first turned up. and hey, would the nae'blis really want to take orders from demandred? I don't think so.
about the black threads: if rand sees them when he embraces the source, why did he not recognise dashiva as what he really was? none of Rands followers have, especially not himself or I dont think he would have missed the chance to balefire him.
And I agree, Taimandred worked very well, wonderfully in fact. to me, moridin just doesnt work.
27
Tree Brother: 2007-02-05
See the "Wheel of Time Theory Database" forum on the message board, under Forsaken: Black Cords.
Rand has only seen the black cords while in TAR, or the skimming place (if I remember correctly)
28
lordoftwilight: 2007-02-05
I don't think that would work since to turn someone to the SHadow you need to 13 dread lords to channel through 13 mydraal and I think that has to be constantly done to keep them to the shadow so t since there has been no mention of Dreadlords or mydraal in the black tower we can assume that he was not turned to the shadow
29
Gandelail: 2007-02-05
Where did you find that the myrdraal and dreadlords had to maintain whatever weave they use to turn people to the shadow? I guess I thought it was kind of a one-time thing, like some kind of super-compulsion for the dark... I'd be interested in reading what I missed on the subject though.
30
Marie Curie 7: 2007-02-07
lordoftwilight:
**** (on a sidenote here would;nt be an interesting theory ti find out why Ishmeal converted to the DO and how he betrayed hope). ****
We may not be able to say for sure why Ishamael converted to the Shadow, but I think we can draw some conclusions as to why he is called Betrayer of Hope.
Consider this passage from the BWB, which describes the world's situation after the Bore was opened:
-----
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 4 - The Fall Into Shadow
Up to this time, the denizens of the world had only to deal with the evil within themselves. If motivations for war and hate were removed, then so were resultant activities. The Bore changed all of that. Like a small finger hole in a prison wall, the Bore was not large enough to allow the Dark One's escape, but it was large enough to allow him to touch the world. His touch subtly altered everything that came within its influence. All the baser motivations and emotional problems of mankind were enhanced and manipulated, enlarging envy, greed, and anger despite lack of any true motivating factors. All those dissatisfied with their lot in life felt that dissatisfaction intensify. Thievery, assault, murder, and even wars began to appear with increasing frequency.
Measures designed to deal with the occasional problems of a peaceful social structure were entirely inadequate in the face of these new problems. The fabric of society began to unravel under the onslaught of the Dark One's influence. A large part of the horror came from the simple fact that for many years, no one knew why this was all happening; chaos seemed to be welling up from nowhere, without cause.
Some people did begin to suspect, and eventually to know, the cause, but unfortunately most of these were people who saw possible gain for themselves in the Dark One's freedom. Before the rest of the world had more than suspected what they faced, the growing numbers of those favoring the Dark One were beginning to organize, and perhaps to communicate with the Dark One; certainly they did so later.
-----
So, most of the people had no idea why the world was suddenly in such upheaval, with crimes and wars occurring much more frequently.
Then we read about Ishamael and his role:
-----
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 5 - The Dark One and the Forsaken
Foremost of the thirteen who formed the high council of the Shadow's forces was Ishamael, or Betrayer of Hope in the Old Tongue. Also known as Ba'alzamon, Heart of the Dark, and Soul of the Shadow, he was assuredly the Dark One's top captain-general despite the fact that he never held a direct field command. Believed to be the most powerful of the Chosen in the use of the One Power, he was equaled by none but Lews Therin Telamon himself.
As Elan Morin Tedronai, he was one of the foremost philosophers of his time, possibly the foremost. His books (among them Analysis of Perceived Meaning, Reality and the Absence of Meaning, and the Disassembly of Reason), while too esoteric for wide popularity, were extremely influential in many areas beyond philosophy, especially in the arts. No copies survive, and perhaps the world is better off for it, considering the circumstances. Some particles that have survived of his writings from after he went over to the Shadow -- probably letters -- indicate that it was his belief that the war between the Shadow and the soul of Lews Therin had gone on since the creation, an endless war between the Great Lord of the Dark and the Creator using human surrogates. According to him, Lews Therin had succumbed to the Dark during other turnings of the Wheel and become the Great Lord's champion. During the war, he fought as hard to turn Lews Therin to the side of the Shadow as he did to defeat him.
Elan Morin certainly was among the first to pledge himself to the Shadow, possibly the first. His public announcement of this, coming from a world-respected figure at a time when famine, plagues, and massive riots were racking an unprepared world, in the middle of a conference called to discuss dealing with the crisis, sparked even greater riots. It was Elan Morin who at the same time first announced to the world what it was that they faced. He called for the complete destruction of the old order - indeed, the complete destruction of everything.
-----
So, a very influential and well-known philosopher, during a conference to try to figure out what to do about the situation, announces (1) that the cause of all the troubles is from the Dark One's touch on the world and (2) that he is going over to the Shadow. Imagine how much the hopes of the world were dashed with regard to handling the crisis and the feeling of betrayal that the people of the world would have had over such a well-known figure declaring his allegiance to the Dark One.
Finally, it's clear that it was the people of the world and not the Dark One who named Ishamael Betrayer of Hope, which fits with the reasoning behind the name:
-----
TITLE: Eye of the World, CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount
"So you do remember some things. Yes, Betrayer of Hope. So have men named me, just as they named you Dragon, but unlike you I embrace the name. They gave me the name to revile me, but I will yet make them kneel and worship it. What will you do with your name? After this day, men will call you Kinslayer. What will you do with that?"
-----
31
Cricha: 2007-03-22
If I remember rightly just after Samaiel and Graindal have spoken with the wiseones, Moridin is spying on them and he thinks about how he uses the True Power alone. This could not be true if he is also Taim. Therfore he cannot be taim (much as i wish it otherwise).
32
bexw: 2007-07-03
Can I just add something I just noticed in the end of the last book when The Red's were walking across the floor of Taim's place to ask and bond the Ashmen it was noticed that all the tiles on the floor were red and black and assumed that he must like the colour.... We know from previous books with Moggy and Cyndy both dress in Moridin's colours at the Forsakens meeting in the dream world that these were indeed his colours........
