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enoid:Black Ajah

by Rand-althor: 2003-03-23 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous

Ok, this theory is very simple, based on a slight play on words. In CoT, when they are in So Harbor, Perrin is in the warehouse, hears a scream, and comes out. Senoid is there, and says to him "I find it hard to lie." Now to see how this is important, I have to examine the Three Oaths, well 1 of the oaths.

1)To speak no word that is not true.

This should put a rest to most argument about what this oath entails. As long as the words are true, any actions, voice type, or anything else can implay anything you want. This means, that the words have to be exactly true, and that Aes Sedai can't say something false and concider it as truth because they are being sarcastic. Now analyze exactly what she says, "I find it HARD to lie." That in itself has to be a lie, because it seems impossible to lie with the oaths in place. Some people would argue that they can lie if they believe the purpose is valid enough, but if that was true then all Aes Sedai would have to do is convince themselves that the lie benifits them enough, and just like that, that oath may as well not exist and Aes Sedai could lie with only a few moments hesitation. This means that by saying it is hard to lie, she is lieing, and that means, that either she somehow took the first oath off, and happens not to be caught, or she is Black Ajah. We have no reason to believe that she took only the first oath off, and this is something Jordan would have somehow forshadowed, and that proves to me that Senoid is Black Ajah.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-03-29

I think you will need more proof than semantics to make your case, although, this could be an infamous case of Jordan writing a scene without considering the exact words his character uses. The problem with what you pointed out can be that it is true that she believes that telling a lie is hard, because of the oaths. Like if someone's legs are bound and they can't run, and then they say, "it is hard for me to run." I guess I am just trying to point out that it isn't a simple given.

2

Great Lord of the Dark: 2003-03-29

Speaking of semantics, I just read Fires of Heaven scene where Rand asks Moiraine if Aes Sedai can only write the truth. She nods. NODS! She didn't say a word, untrue or otherwise! We're right back where we started! Now that's really a great Clarification. LOL Ah well, we know she wasn't lying.

3

Anubis: 2003-03-30

sarcasm, calling to attention that she CANT lie. like saying that uprooting an oak with your bare hands might be just a little difficult...

4

Anubis: 2003-04-03

about the nod. i think that moiraine's previous oath to rand and the fact that he CAN trust her would be enough that we can take that as a yes.

5

Elder Haman: 2003-05-05

Whatever the actual words of the first oath are, we now that in practice, sarcasm is allowed- That's enough for me, and I don't think we need to make it more complicated.

6

Callandor: 2003-05-05

RJ has stated that the oath on not speaking any word not true doesnt encompass sarcasm. So that is allowed.

7

Shadowstalker: 2003-05-06

Yup. To me, this seemed like a sarcastic comment, nothing else. If she were of the Black Ajah, this would not be any proof, anyway. People from the Black Ajah can lie. I don't think RJ really meant for this to mean anything - just a different way of wording it, to lighten the mood, perhaps.

8

rubbernilly: 2003-05-06

Great Lord...

You can't stop with just Moiraine's nod to Rand. As pointed out, she had taken an oath to him, so that should serve for some weight.

However, the crux of the argument comes later, when Seiane and Pevara are discussing how to find darkfriends. Seiane has been charges (albeit circumspectly) by Elaida to trace treason in the White Tower, and she infers that she is to find darkfriends - the Black Ajah. When she enlists Pevara, the two of them plan out how to carefully trap BA sisters. Since it is obvious that the BA has been freed from the strictures against lying, S. and P. decide that they need to find a case where a sister has written one thing and then done another. If they can manage this they will have proof that the sister lied.

This exchange is in Winter's Heart, I believe.

That should be enough to settle the question of an AS's ability to write a lie right there.

9

waterbucket: 2004-05-25

Just as a note, Aes Sedai can lie, they just have to personally believe it to be the truth. It's not a matter of convincing yourself it's for a good cause or anything, the Aes Sedai has to actually think she's telling the truth. I'm pretty sure one of the Forsaken said this, but I can't find the quote at the moment.