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ld Fisher King theory..

by Grady: 2003-06-01 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: Miscellaneous

I know it's been brought up before, but I'm a newbie, so please bear with me.

I've been thinking about the relation between the old Fisher King story and the WOT. In the Fisher King, it was necessary for the King to have the Sword, the Crown, the Spear, and the Cauldron so he could give up being a wounded beggar and become King again.

I've read in the WOT faq where the Sword has been compared to Callandor, the Spear to the Aiel(or Mat's spear),the crown the the laurel crown, and the Cauldron to the bowl of winds.

But the more I think about how the story sets up that Rand will need Mat and Perrin desperately, the more I wonder if maybe Mat represents the spear himself, Rand the sword (or maybe Jahar)and Perrin the crown (because of the whole broken crown thing).

Of course, I couldn't think of what the cauldron would represent besides the bowl of the winds, but who knows?

Anyway, I know it's pretty thin, but it's been floating in my head recently, more so now that all this color swirl in their heads is going on.

I wondered if anyone else thought anything like it.
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Tamyrlin: 2003-06-04

I haven't studied the analogy of the Fisher King, and I can't even remember reading of it in the WoT FAQ. However, I would say that it isn't necessary for RJ to have a "cauldron", nor is it necessary for him to use a crown. I doubt he come up with the Aiel and the spears so it would fit with the idea of the Fisher King, although it works nicely. Rand already is a King. The question isn't how does Rand fit into the role of Fisher King, instead the question should be, how will Jordan tweak the idea of the Fisher King with Rand? He likes to play with mythology and turn it around; he always discusses this idea that every turning brings new changes to old stories. What will be the way he changes that old story in this turning?


Weird Harold: 2003-06-04

Like Tamyrlin, I haven't studied the Fisher King legend, however your point about Rand needing a Sword,Crown, Spear and Cauldron struck a chord.

If I remember correctly, there are many cauldrons in various myths, and a large number of them are devices for telling the future (The three witches cauldron in Macbeth?)

If that's the case, then possibly Nicola's Foretelling provides the Sword, Spear and Cauldron:

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives."

Rand has the Crown of Swords.

Elayne is "The Lion Sword"

Aviendha is "The Dedicated Spear"

That leaves Min and "She who Sees Beyond" to fill the role of the Fisher King's Cauldron.


Probably not, but it's interesting that Nicola's Foretelling uses two of the four images associated with the Fisher king.


Fade: 2003-06-10

I agree with Weird Harold for the most part. I would change one small thing however. I had always taken the part about Nicolas quote about "he who is dead yet lives" to be refering to LTT. so couldnt the crown be refering to LTT? he was the Tamyriln, and he was the LORD of the morning. just an idea, take it as you will.


Mairashda: 2003-06-10

the cauldron might be the Horn of Valere...


Mairashda: 2003-06-11

well, let me elaborate that:

The fisher king is in some legends keeper of the grail and my be considered an early christian/ pagan-christian version of perceval (yet another saviour). in jordans world there is one artifact that is quite similar to the grail: it inspires heroes most heroic deeds and lifelong quests, yet only those of purest heart may find or use it (yes, I know... Mat sounded it!

:-> hes was only thinking of salvation, though...) me Cauldron=Grail=Horn of Valere...

oh, and incidentally: Perceval fought Gawain and his half-brother... in one version of this story gawain stopped fighting, as soon as he learned his opponents name... makes you think.


Elder Haman: 2003-11-15

Gawain's half brother? or Percival's half brother? Because Percival could either be Mat (fighting Gawain and his half brother Galad) or it could be Rand fighting his brother Galad and Gawain.


brigitta: 2003-12-08

Mat's last name is Cauldron, maybe that'll help?


Shadar Darei: 2003-12-08

the spear probably refers to Rand's Seanchan spear that he carries around, even though people call it a scepter


Callandor: 2003-12-08

**Mat's last name is Cauldron, maybe that'll help?**

No, Mat's full name is Matrim Cauthon; not Cauldron.


danger: 2004-06-16

I agree with Weird Harold, and since we are talking about Fisher King/ Arthurian legend...The lion sword, dedicated spear, she who sees beyond might also be the same as the three women that stood over the boat that bore a horribly wounded king Arthur to the Ilse of Avalon (Tar Valon) where he would either die or recieve healing. Sounds familiar.

Also, if the horn is supposed to be like the grail, wouldn't Galad have something to do with it? I'm assuming that Galad is Sir Galahad, the just and pure who always did what was right and eventualy found the Holy Grail.

Sorry if this is getting too far off topic


Heron: 2004-09-17

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives."

I'd just like to elaborate a little on Weird Harold's post on 2003-06-04. The symbol of Andor is the white lion, so the lion sword is likely at least somebody from Andor's royal family. Also, Aiel means "Dedicated", so it also stands to reason that the dedicated spear is somebody Aiel. Both of these support Wierd Harold's speculations/theories, and Min's having to share him (rand) with Elayne (the Daughter-heir of Andor) and Aviendha (a former Aiel maiden of the spear)just further solidifies that, in my mind. The boat, though... I dunno what that could be.


ilgross: 2004-09-19

The Holy Grail isn't the Horn its a sa'angreal

Sa'angreal: San Greal (Holy Grail). An alternate spelling, Sang Real, translates to "holy or royal blood"

The Grail is represented as a sa'angreal