he Consequences of Death by One Power Overdose
by Yaga Shura: 2005-07-31 | 5.15 out of 10 (13 votes)
Confirmed Occasions when Characters have Overdosed:
1) Lews Therin Telamon, in the Prologue to The Eye of the World
~He drew on the True Source deeply, and still more deeply, like a man dying of thirst. Quickly he had drawn more of the One Power than he could channel unaided; his skin felt as if it were aflame. Straining, he forced himself to draw more, tried to draw it all. ~
2) Aginor at the Eye of the World, chapter 51 of The Eye of the World, Against the Shadow
~“Mine!” Aginor cried. “Mine!”
Warmth built in Rand, the warmth of the sun, the radiance of the sun, bursting, the awful radiance of light, of the Light. Away!
“Mine!” Flame shot from Aginor's mouth, broke through his eyes like spears of fire, and he screamed.~
3) Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan, reported by Moiraine in The Eye of the World , chapter 9 Tellings of the Wheel
~Eldrene had drawn to herself more of the One Power than any human could ever hope to wield unaided. As the enemy generals died, so did she die~
The Aftermath of the Overdose
1) Lews Therin Telamon
a) A bar of fire was created, as seen in the Prologue to The Eye of the World
~The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon~
b) The creation of Dragonmount, from the Prologue to The Eye of the World
~Of Lews Therin Telamon, no sign remained. Where he had stood a mountain now rose miles into the sky~
2) Aginor
a) Aginor was burned to death, as shown in chapter 52, There is Neither Beginning Nor End of The Eye of the World
~Uncomprehending, he stared at the oily ashes at which he had been lying, ashes scattered and smeared over the stone of the hilltop. Bits of dark green cloth lay mixed in the char, edge blackened scraps that had escaped the flames.
Aginor. ~
~staggered past Aginor's ashes~
b) Aginor enhanced the height of the cliff he was standing on when he died.
The first time Rand looks over the edge of the cliff is in chapter 51 of The Eye of the World, Against the Shadow, prior to Aginor's death.
~At the edge, he looked down a sheer hundred foot drop, a stone wall as smooth as planed timber~
The second time Rand looks over the edge of the cliff is in chapter 52 of The Eye of the World, There is Neither Beginning Nor End, after the death of Aginor.
~A sheer drop loomed under his face, a smooth rock wall spinning in his eyes, depth pulling at him. His head swum, and he vomited over the edge of the cliff.~
Note that the second time, Rand is unable to estimate the distance down the cliff, because it makes his head swim until he vomits. This shows an increase in the height of the cliff.
3) Eldrene
a)Manetheren (the city) was burned to the ground, as shown in The Eye of the World , chapter 9 Tellings of the Wheel
~the fires that consumed her consumed the empty city of Manetheren, even the stones of it, down to the living mountains~
b) The city of Manetheren was located in the Mountains of Mist, and was a great city, with the second most beautiful Ogier grove, according to Loial in chapter 47, More Tales of the Wheel , of The Eye of the World
~”. . . There must have been an Ogier grove and Waygate at Manetheren”
“The most beautiful of all,” Loial said, “except for Tar Valon.”
But when Perrin and his party leave the Manetheren Waygate in chapter 27, Within the Ways , of The Shadow Rising , the description is
~Cloud capped mountains rose all around~
This would seem to imply that there is presently nowhere that something so large as the Ogier groves could have grown. Yet clearly there once was an Ogier grove there, complete with the massive trees that the Ogier planted in all their groves, or else Loial would not have said it was the second most beautiful.
From this, I would conclude that the mountains now are different to how they were when the grove was in its majestic glory. Since that's a major tectonic shift if it happened naturally, it is far more likely to have been a result of some other cause, like the One Power.
I conclude, from the three examples of burning out that we have, that burning out when it results in death is always accompanied by an uncontrolled release of the One Power.
Why Earth and Fire?
This release seems to be in the form of Fire and Earth. Why this might be is harder to determine, although I have a theory.
It cannot be conclusively said what determines which aspects of the One Power a person is strongest with. However, it is known that men are usually strongest with Earth and Fire, while women are normally strongest in Air and Water. It would seem, therefore, that there is a good chance that the indivdual element strengths are determined genetically. Further evidence to this end can be seen in the tendency for Two Rivers women channelers to be strong in Earth.
This means that the logical next assumption is that both Lews Therin and Aginor were most likely to have been most powerful in Earth and Fire.
We also know that the women with Manetheren blood tend to be stronger with the more male-dominated aspects of the One Power. For example, Egwene is very strong in Earth, as is Bode Cauthon.
Chapter 42, Falme , of The Great Hunt makes it clear that Egwene is strong in Earth.
~”No one even thought to test me on this earlier. Earth is one of the five powers that was strongest in men.”
Evidence of Bode's strength can be gained from these quotes from Crossroads of Twilight . First, chapter 17, Secrets
~of the Five Powers, strength in Earth was the key, and besides Egwene herself, only nine sisters in the camp -along with two of the Accepted and nearly two dozen novices- had sufficient of that to make the weaves work at all~
Second, from chapter 30, What the Oath Rod Can Do
~Bode jerked her hand back as if stung at the sound of Egwene's voice. "Why?" she said, not quite a demand. She had learned that much, at least. "I can do this. Leane Sedai explained it to me, and I know I can do it."
"I know you can. But not as well as I [Egwene] can..."~
That Bode, who has been channeling only a short period of time, has more strength in Earth than almost all of the Aes Sedai at their full strength is a massive testimony to her strength.
Neither of these women share any particularly close blood ties that we know of, other than those shared by all those from the Two Rivers (except Rand): the link to the blood of Manetheren.
The Eye of the World , chapter 9, Tellings of the Wheel
~[the people of Manetheren] held it when the long centuries had wiped the why of it from their memories. They held it until, today, there is you~
I think it is reasonable to say, therefore, that the women of Manetheren were stronger in the male dominated aspects of the One Power than the other female channelers. Consequently, there is a good chance that Eldrene was stronger in Earth than anything else, just as there was for Aginor and Lews Therin Telamon with both Earth and Fire.
This doesn't seem likely to have been coincidence. I think there may be a logical reason behind this.
None of those people were attempting to productively channel; they were simply drawing on the Source. It makes sense to assume that they were drawing most heavily on their naturally strongest elements, and that therefore there was an excess of those elements that had to go somewhere when the channeller died.
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1
Tamyrlin: 2005-09-10
Yaga, first, thanks for the great synopsis. I hadn't ever taken a look at all of the overdose cases Jordan has given us. Although, I came to a different conclusion, not necessarily discounting yours. All of the cases of overdosing involved fire. We know, if you don't die from overdosing, you typically are burned out, another fire reference. So, it would seem that the mechanism to protect the individual, depending on how much someone pulls on the One Power, comes as Fire, for both men and women. For some, this "fire" simply burns them out. If they can't stop, the fire spreads outward in its destruction. I see it like the spark of a fuse burning out, or burning down the house, depending on how it spreads.
2
therobotbadger: 2005-09-11
**Warmth built in Rand, the warmth of the sun, the radiance of the sun, bursting, the awful radiance of light, of the Light. Away!
“Mine!” Flame shot from Aginor's mouth, broke through his eyes like spears of fire, and he screamed.~ **
When was it confirmed that Aginor died by OP overdose? I always thought, and it could be interpreted so from this quote, that Rand chaneled instinctively and killed Aginor. The "Away!" could be seen as "I want Aginor to go away" or "I want to go away".
**~A sheer drop loomed under his face, a smooth rock wall spinning in his eyes, depth pulling at him. His head swum, and he vomited over the edge of the cliff.~ ??Note that the second time, Rand is unable to estimate the distance down the cliff, because it makes his head swim until he vomits. This shows an increase in the height of the cliff.**
The fact that he doesn't note the height means it changed? Or it means that, since he noted it before, he didn't need to note it again because it was the same. His vomitting can be easily explained as his chaneling sickness, which at this stage of his development is happening right after he has chaneled. He looks down the cliff, gets dizzy, and throws up.
The Aginor-as-OP-overdose I might buy because I don't know what RJ may have said on the matter. The changing height of the cliff, however, is impossible for me to believe.
3
William Seeker: 2005-09-11
Maybe, when you draw too much, Fire being the most uncontolable power, is the one that connsumes. Plus, doesn't that sound better than "smothered by air" or "drownded".
4
Anubis: 2005-09-12
Well.... I like the theory, but it might be all 5 powers being used at once.
I shall explain.
Air: Theres a ton of wind and whatnot.
Water: This is the trickey one. Volcanoes are formed when water gets under the earth, into the magma, and it decreases the melting point of the earth allowing magma to bubble upwards and form a volcano. Complicated way of saying the water is there making the earth into mud which is more... um... movable.
Earth: The earth moves. Woot.
Fire: People burst into flames. Woot.
Spirit: Uh... the white bar of whatever? maybe combines all 5? i donnow.
Basicly Earth and Fire are in the forefront, the visible powers. The Air is invisible and not really noticed, and the water exists and moves inside the earth, creating more seismic activity, and causing the earth to bubble up more.
Im sure some geologist will tell me im an idiot in a few days, but its just an opinion.
5
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-12
therobotbadger:
" I always thought, and it could be interpreted so from this quote, that Rand chaneled instinctively and killed Aginor. The "Away!" could be seen as "I want Aginor to go away" or "I want to go away"."
not or. it would have to be and, because he immediately went from where he was to Tarwin's Gap, where the battle was.
"The fact that he doesn't note the height means it changed?"
On ~depth pulling at him~, which is only used the second time, and not even alluded to the first, I could build the case for the height having changed.
6
ShadowbaneX: 2005-09-12
I think that you guys might be missing the obvious here. The One Power is energy. Remember RJ does have a physics background. What happens when you apply too much energy to a system? What happens when you over charge a battery? What happens when you leave a steak on the grill for too long?
It's not so much that Fire is coming out of a person, it's just that the body has more energy that it can safely handle and the access destroys the vessel.
7
Frenzy: 2005-09-12
i wouldn't say the overdoses were just acts of over-drawing the Source. Lews Therin was committing suicide, and Eldrene was lashing out at the Shadowspawn army that killed her husband and her country. Even Rand was trying to kill Aginor, and Aginor was trying to kill Rand. All three instances were acts of destruction. That's probably significant.
8
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-12
"i wouldn't say the overdoses were just acts of over-drawing the Source. Lews Therin was committing suicide"
Yes, he was, but it's his method for committing suicide that's important: he did it by overdose. He wasn't doing anything with it. Suicide was the end, but ODing was the means.
"and Eldrene was lashing out at the Shadowspawn army that killed her husband and her country."
Yes, but she did end up drawing too much and lost control. It might be significant, but I'm not convinced.
"Even Rand was trying to kill Aginor, and Aginor was trying to kill Rand. "
That was the plan, I can't argue against that. However, all we have to go on is Rand, who was not channeling, just drawing on the Source. I think that Aginor was also just drawing on the Eye rather than channeling, or else he would surely have beaten Rand.
9
therobotbadger: 2005-09-13
I still say there is no evidence that the cliff at the Eye changed height. The "supporting quote" of the cliff's ~depth pulling at him~ and Rand's subsequent vomitting can be much more easily explained as an effect of the sickness wilders get the first times they channel. In fact, I'd be willing to venture that this absolutely, definitely is an example of Rand's new-wilder sickness, and if you propose another explaination, you'll have to show me at point earlier in the story when Rand got sick immediately after channeling, or a time shortly after his channeling at the Eye when he got sick. One of these two things would have to have happened if this was not the last instance of his channeling sickness.
Also, I ask again, what evidence do you have that Aginor burned himself out? He was an experienced channeler of the Age of Legends, taking out an untrained young man should have been no sweat, let alone nothing that would take his full strength and more. Plus, was it even possible for him to have burned himself out with the Eye's Power at that time? Let me put it this way: when Rand and Asmodean were fighting over the Choeden Kal access key in Rhuidean, neither was able to fully channel the power of the sa'angreal because each could only use half. Does the Eye work in a similar manner? Is there a fixed (or perhaps just maximum) rate of flow out?
Those questions aside, I still don't see, based on the evidence you've provided, that it's certain Aginor burned himself out. Possible, absolutely. Likely... eh, I don't know. Certain, no. And even if he did, I see no reason to believe Earth was a significant contributor to the effects.
** ~Cloud capped mountains rose all around~
This would seem to imply that there is presently nowhere that something so large as the Ogier groves could have grown. **
When Ogier plant their groves, they don't just throw in whatever trees they feel like. "You must shape the vision to the land, not the land to the vision. In every grove was planted every tree that would grow and thrive in that place..." (tEotW ch 36 - Web of the Pattern, p 462-463). Manetheren was mountainous before Eldrene Power OD'd, after all, Manetheren means "Mountain Home." The Ogier Builders would have known exactly what trees would grow and thrive in a mountainous environment. You quote that there are mountains around the site of Manetheren, and say that implies a grove couldn't have grown there. But there are mountains all over the world covered with trees (at least to a certain height), and there's no reason that carefully selected and Sung trees couldn't have lived wonderfully in the mountains around Manetheren. Thus, I see no reason to believe that an effect of Eldrene's OP overdose was a drastic change in the topography around the city of Manetheren, and no reason to believe Earth was a significant contributor to the effects.
10
Yaga Shura: 2005-09-13
"I still say there is no evidence that the cliff at the Eye changed height."
Okay. I say you're wrong, but whatever. The evidence I've given is all I have. If you're not sold, what can I do?
"Also, I ask again, what evidence do you have that Aginor burned himself out?"
Explicitly, there isn't a lot. Something definitely happened, though. Look at the original quotes I used. Do you doubt that the "awful radiance" building in Rand is saidin? Can you doubt that Rand, who is strong in the OP, was drawing close to his burn-out limit? If you do doubt this, I'm sorry to say that I don't really think you're working with the facts. So assuming they were drawing at equal rates, Rand would reach his limit after Aginor. If Rand was close, Aginor was there.
"He was an experienced channeler of the Age of Legends, taking out an untrained young man should have been no sweat, let alone nothing that would take his full strength and more."
Except it's a man with the potential to exceed Aginor. I believe that Rand was forced by the events at the Eye to reach his potential faster.
"You quote that there are mountains around the site of Manetheren, and say that implies a grove couldn't have grown there. But there are mountains all over the world covered with trees (at least to a certain height),"
The trees in Ogier groves are/were massive. Not small things.
"and there's no reason that carefully selected and Sung trees couldn't have lived wonderfully in the mountains around Manetheren."
Well, other than a lack of soil.
"Thus, I see no reason to believe that an effect of Eldrene's OP overdose was a drastic change in the topography around the city of Manetheren, and no reason to believe Earth was a significant contributor to the effects. "
Okay. If you're not convinced, fine.
It seems a lot of people are okay with the fire part of the hypothesis: that burning out releases fire (either as OP Fire, or thermal energy. It could be either if it is the sole effect.) So, if you are denying that Earth is also a factor, I ask you to provide an alternative hypothesis as to how Dragonmount was formed from LTT's burning out. I'd also invite you to subit those on this thread.
11
: 2005-09-14
I am not convinced that the fire and earthquakes are caused by OD'ing on the OP.
LTT was "cured" by Ishameal, but not totally. He was still a bit crazy, and upset. He just killed his family. He not only OD'ed, but committed suicide. His death by fire, and volcano may have been intentional. That is, he OD'd while killing himself, spectacularly.
Eldrene just lost her husband, and her people were just about all dead. She was distraught. She drew more than she should, killed all the shadow's generals, but she may also have used the power she was OD'ing on to commit suicide.
You say that "burning out when it results in death is always accompanied by an uncontrolled release of the One Power". However, both instances were for people who did not want to live, and are, in my mind, suicides.
I have read Eye of the World multiple times, and never had the impression that Aginor burned himself out. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. But I still don't think so.
Regarding the cliff. Take those quotes in context. First Rand approches the cliff high on adrenalin, trying to escape. He looks down, sees a hundred foot drop, and smooth stone.
When it is all over, Rand looks down, and gets dizzy. There is really no indication that anything is different. He just gets vertigo now that the crisis has passed. And, as therobotbadger says, the vertigo and vomitting could be the last instance of channeling sickness as well.
However, I do think you are correct in one respect. Eldrene was a powerful OP user, and was very likely strong in all 5 powers. Not sure if this is genetic or not.
12
Anubis: 2005-09-14
**
"and there's no reason that carefully selected and Sung trees couldn't have lived wonderfully in the mountains around Manetheren."
Well, other than a lack of soil. **
Well the thing is there are trees, mostly in Asia I think, Bonsai is an example, that dont require much soil. So the grove could have been really small and uh... artistic and the ogier could have been like oh hey really cool tiny trees.... The problem is that these trees dont grow to be what anyone would call gigantic, though some do reach a respectableish size.
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Anubis: 2005-09-14
Yaga, something you need to take into account I believe.
LTT was not channeling when he overdosed. He just drew the One Power untill he exploded.
Aginor was probably not channeling. He didnt really do anything, but this one is more debatable since we dont have his PoV.
Manatheren chick whose name I forgot was channeling. She was deffinatly trying to bring fire down upon the trollocs. She was making Rands uber stone of tear trolloc seeking death wave of lightning using fire. Unfortunatly she didnt have the female equivalent of Callandor with her and so she overdosed, but the weave still worked.
Hmm.... Suicide weaves... interesting.
14
Lemagrag: 2005-09-15
Personally, I always thought of LTT's death as a cut-away scene--his final moment captured as if by an observer . To use your quote:
"The air turned to fire, the fire to light liquefied. The bolt that struck from the heavens would have seared and blinded any eye that glimpsed it, even for an instant. From the heavens it came, blazed through Lews Therin Telamon"
First of all, a source is indicated--"from the heavens." I would think that overdosing on the OP would cause a death from within, not from an outside source. To me, this indicates some sort of channeling.
Furthermore, this bolt--and keep in mind, it is a bolt, not an explosion--this bolt obviously strikes downward into the earth enough to hit the magma that forms Dragonmount.
Personally, I think Lews Therin managed to balefire himself. The blinding light and bolt shape both fit other descriptions of balefire, and the fact that it ate away enough earth to cause an eruption seems to fit. Furthermore, seeing as how he had one last moment of lucidity, it seems reasonable that he would want to try to undo the slaying of his kin by burning out his own thread.
This is just my own little theory, mind, but one way or the other I don't think that his death as described in the quote is the result of simply burning out.
15
Ozymandias: 2005-09-15
I also find it hard to believe that Aginor OD'ed. We know he's an experienced channeler, so there is no reason why he wouldnt have started to just blatantly attack Rand. He's no fool, he knows who Rand is, and must realize his advantage lies in experience. To just assume he would keep pulling and pulling in some trumped up OP equivalent staring contest doesnt seem plausible. I think this could be another instance of Rand using inherent weaves (as in what LTT lets filter through like in the Ishy fight), but RJ not describing them. I mean, why the hell does Aginor OD? Its not like he's showing off to Rand how much he can take. Theyre fighting, and Rand's sliver-thin advantage lets him win. It happens against Asmodean in Rhuidean as well, when Rand adds a trickle thin flow to that of the sa'angreal, which gives him an infestimal upperhand which lets him win. I can't find any logical reason that Aginor would overdose like that.
16
Callandor: 2005-09-16
**Note that the second time, Rand is unable to estimate the distance down the cliff, because it makes his head swim until he vomits. This shows an increase in the height of the cliff.**
Well, it's entirely possible that Rand wasn't feeling the best due to the final effects of his Power-acquisition fever syndrome?
**This would seem to imply that there is presently nowhere that something so large as the Ogier groves could have grown. Yet clearly there once was an Ogier grove there, complete with the massive trees that the Ogier planted in all their groves, or else Loial would not have said it was the second most beautiful.**
It is possible it used to be in the area where the city melted and is now inhabitable soil.
Interesting stuff, but I don't fully agree about the cliff or the grove. But interesting.
17
Kantuna: 2005-09-16
"So, if you are denying that Earth is also a factor, I ask you to provide an alternative hypothesis as to how Dragonmount was formed from LTT's burning out. I'd also invite you to subit those on this thread."
I'm not denying that earth is factor, but I've got another theory on how Dragonmount was formed by LLTs Suicide.
Just imagine, for a moment, that only fire is involved. Now, LLT was a very strong channeler, who could hold a lot of the OP. It's reasonable to assume that the more you overdose by, the more powerful the effects are. If LLTs suicide drew all of his power and more (which it did) then the effects would be bigger (Hence big column of light.)
Anyway, If only fire is involved, why did the fire make dragonmount. Well, here's why.
Dragonmount isn't a mountain, it's a volcano.
You know, volcanoes? Essentially just a big column of earth for fire to go through. The fire is drawn up from underneath the ground (Bringing Dragonmount with it) where it turns into lava or gets eaten by a giant pigeon, who really cares =).
Anyway, a bit long winded but it makes a mountain without earth.
18
Anubis: 2005-09-17
Lightning appears to come from the heavens, when in fact it comes from the ground up. And we have LTTs PoV saying he wasnt channeling, just trying to draw all of saidin.
19
therobotbadger: 2005-09-17
**Personally, I think Lews Therin managed to balefire himself. **
LTT could not have balefired himself. If he had, his soul would be burned from the Pattern and could never be reborn, but we know that his soul has been reborn in a very prominent way.
As to what he did do, I really couldn't say. I don't think there's enough information to tell if he was conciously channeling everything he did or if some of it was an uncontrolled surge due to OP OD, if he cause Dragonmount to rise himself or if that bar of light burned into the magma which raised the mountain, or exactly what the nature of that bar of light was.
I think at this point in the story (being the prologue of the first book), RJ was more concerned with setting the tone than with rigorously explaining to us how the Power worked. And as well he should have been; we've had plenty of exposure to discussions of the Power in the later books to figure out a lot of things, but that first moment is crucial in a dramatic sense and shouldn't have been squandered. Dedicating that moment to people like us to pick apart and analyze would have been suicide and risk turning off a broader base of readers.
That being said, I don't think we are able to use LTT's death as proper evidence for many things. The passage is simply too vague on a lot of areas. So, Yaga, you ask me to provide a theory on how Dragonmount was created. Unfortunately, I think that due to the uncertain nature of the scene I am unable to do this without degenerating into pure speculation, and I think we should stay away from that.
20
Callandor: 2005-09-18
**Personally, I think Lews Therin managed to balefire himself. The blinding light and bolt shape both fit other descriptions of balefire, and the fact that it ate away enough earth to cause an eruption seems to fit. Furthermore, seeing as how he had one last moment of lucidity, it seems reasonable that he would want to try to undo the slaying of his kin by burning out his own thread.**
No. Lews Therin did not balefire himself -- he overdose. RJ has said this many times.
**Q: Please find out if Lews Therin balefired himself in the prologue in EotW, or if he just drew too much of the OP. If it isn't critical to the continuing plot, I'm sure he'll say.
A: Lews Therin did not use balefire on himself; he simply drew as much of the One Power as he could, then kept on pulling it in.**
**This is just my own little theory, mind, but one way or the other I don't think that his death as described in the quote is the result of simply burning out.**
It wasn't -- it was overdosing. As far as we know, overdosing is quite different from burning out, since the results are differnt: burning out is a complete loss of the Source, overdosing is death.
21
sirach3311: 2005-09-19
I shall tackle this as you ordered it.
As Lemagrag stated, Lews Therin was channeling and then a bolt came from the heavens and BAM, here's Dragonmount. This shows that Lews Therin was clearly trying to kill himself. I mean, he just slayed his entire family, dude. He was trying to undo everything with balefire (Lemagrag's theory, PLS MAKE THIS A REAL THEORY, it seems real interesting.. or is it already one?)
Eldrene was killing Trollocs by the dozen with Fire, and then burnt herself out. Ooohkay...
To my personal opinion, Aginor didn't burn himself out, I mean, it wasn't like they were racing to find out who could hold more?:D They were trying to kill each other. I see Aginor's exploding huzzah more on Rand's 'Away!' thought.
On the Earth Fire thing, I believe its just what happens when you overdose, pure energy (im sorry, i forgot who wrote this) is the Power, and then BAM, you explode with too much.. Not really on the strength on the Earth and Fire, but in the amount of pure energy. When they explode, well, the earth must change a little. Summarizing: I don't think Lews Therin died by overdose but by balefire(Lemagrag, MAKE THIS A THEORY!). Eldrene was a supah woman who died by OD trying to kill Trollocs by the thousands, and then exploded with such power that Manetheren was destroyed. Aginor wasn't overdosed, and Rand just got dizzy after his first fight.
Still, i think your theory's really good. Who knows? Maybe RJ really did mean it that way...
22
ThunderWalker: 2005-09-19
Dragonmount was created by the bar of light that struck. It anhilated LTT, and continued down to create the volcano.
I took the discussion here to be of whether that bizare form of lightning, of other force, was due to overdosing, or was due to LTT weaving his own suicide. I am not sure how much RJ thought about this at this point in the series. His answer today about this could be different than his answer after writing the first book.
Also, I don't think the bar of light could have been Balefire. Besides the quote from RJ, I don't think you can balefire yourself. There was a discussion somewhere on balefiring someone who balefired someone else. Can't remember the outcome. Anyway, how could you balefire yourself? You wouldn't exist to balefire yourself.
Regardless, balefire does not remove you from the soul pool. I just removes part of your currently existing thread. You can still be reborn.
I believe RJ spoke to this at one point. The only consequence of balefiring with respect to the soul, is that your thread can be burned back in time to a point where the DO cannot grab your soul to transmigrate you.
You can still be reborn the normal way.
23
JakOShadows: 2005-09-19
i really don't think LTT balefired himself. When he describes what he is doing himself, he kept on drawing untill it killed him. I think he would have known if he was balefiring himself. And plus, if he did do that, there would be no soul left to be reborn. So hopefull he would not try to do that anyway. But since Rand is alive with the memories of LTT, I do believe he didn't do that. All the obvious clues lead me to believe he just overdosed to kill himself, rather than call down lightning or anything like that.
24
therobotbadger: 2005-09-19
**There was a discussion somewhere on balefiring someone who balefired someone else. Can't remember the outcome.**
I once wrote a letter to RJ about this subject. He didn't answer (I mean, he's a busy guy and I was in middle school), but I do remember reading an interview in which this subject was tackled. This interview is not, unfortunately, in my possession, but I can relate what I remember.
Balefire was said to be 'outside of time'. Meaning if one person balefires another, then a third person comes along and balefires the first, the second person is not coming back. Once the weaves are set, the balefire exists, whether or not the person who set the weaves exists.
Whether or not one can balefire oneself, I don't recall. It may or may not have been covered in the interview. I personally think it may be possible, given the interpretation you've received second-hand.
Regardless, however, of whether or not it is possible, LTT did not balefire himself. End of story.
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Anubis: 2005-09-20
**As Lemagrag stated, Lews Therin was channeling and then a bolt came from the heavens and BAM, here's Dragonmount. This shows that Lews Therin was clearly trying to kill himself. I mean, he just slayed his entire family, dude. He was trying to undo everything with balefire (Lemagrag's theory, PLS MAKE THIS A REAL THEORY, it seems real interesting.. or is it already one?) **
Ok dude. Try reading the prolouge. The dude does not channel. The dude keeps drawing saidin until he explodes. The dude does not do anything with the saidin, the dude does not channel. Dude.
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silverwolf: 2005-09-21
Robert Jordan has flat out stated, on seperate occasions, that Aginor and LTT both overdosed on the One Power. No quibbling, no slippery wording--they both overdosed. Get over it if you think otherwise.
RJ has also said that balefire does not destroy the soul--it can prevent transmigration, but not reincarnation. When balefired, you are simply dead and your actions are erased after a certain point.
That said, back to the original topic. Think about the terminology--channeling, meaning to control the flow of, to conduct. Burned out--fried, melted, etc. Severed--cut off. Think of something in the human body, some metaphysical part, as the connection to the One Power. Think of the Power as Power--electricity, if that makes it easier for you. Human beings conduct this power--channel it--and can only conduct up to a certain amount. Any more than that, it's like trying to push too many amps through a fuse--it's fried. Getting fried this way sometimes merely melts the connection, as when the power flowing through it is just a little over what can be handled--burned out, but alive. Sometimes, it destroys the wire or fuse entirely--killed, but not a particularly destructive death. And sometimes, when the flow is much greater than the wire or fuse (in this case, the human body) can handle, the conductor/channeler explodes in heat and light--fire. Death by One Power overdose does result in an uncontrolled release of the One Power--the channeler, the controller, has been destroyed. This release is not necessarily woven into any flows--in physics, most "wasted" energy disappates in the form of heat, light, and/or sound, as in heat from friction, sound from the roaring of a motor, or the release of all three from exploding fireworks. I don't think there's enough evidence that women from the Two Rivers are strong earth/fire channelers (two strong in earth out of dozens? that might be a higher-than-normal-ration, but we don't know that for sure) or evidence of release in the form of other powers to justify saying that all overdoses result in a release of the One Power in the forms of whatever power you channel strongest.
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wolfbrother10: 2005-09-22
I have to disagree with therobotbadger above in that I don't believe that the first time that Rand drew on the OP was during his fight with Aginor.
During my second read of EoTW I noticed that in the end of Ch 32 we see Rand and Mat trapped in a room with a darkfriend (Gode) after them. They are enclosed because the window has bars. Miraculously the bars are struck by lightning and the ta'veren are able to escape.
When I first read this i belived it to be there shifting of the pattern but remembered that Moiraine had said that the mark of the first tast of the OP can be seen with a lucky event such as a branch appearing when you are about to drown. We see that after their encounter with Gode Mat is the one that ends up helping Rand walk around. Rand was surprised "to get over being sick so fast" (top of p489) which proves what Moiraine said that whatever reaction lasts about a day and then you are return to normalcy. Baalzamon even tells Rand in dreaming that "what protects you also makes you vulneralble" (mid p493). I believe he is refering to the OP becuase he says that one time you hide and then you "light a signal fire" The OP felt if another weilder is close by. Rand being a beginner and not even knowing that he can weild the OP is infact vulnerable in many cases. This might be another Theory in and of itself.
I do believe that there is a corrolation between overdosing and the effects and believe that in the last books or maybe the prequals we will find out more.
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Callandor: 2005-09-23
**I have to disagree with therobotbadger above in that I don't believe that the first time that Rand drew on the OP was during his fight with Aginor.**
Rand first channels saidin to Heal or displace Bela's fatigue when Rand and co. are fleeing Emond's Field at Winternight.
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JakOShadows: 2005-09-23
I realize that even though Rand channeled before the eye, they were relatively small amounts power required. Whereas at the eye he is battling one of the forsaken. He is kind of thrown into it still. But even so, I do not think what happens there is overdosing. It's him struggling to manage the immense power of saidin, because he is not used to it yet.
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therobotbadger: 2005-09-23
**I have to disagree with therobotbadger above in that I don't believe that the first time that Rand drew on the OP was during his fight with Aginor. **
I don't remember saying that. If I had said that, I'd disagree with myself. He channeled to make Bela not be tired running to Taren Ferry. He channeled to knock a Trolloc off Bayle Domon's ship after Shadar Logoth. He channeled lightning to escape from the inn in Four Kings. Then he channeled at the Eye. There may be one or two more I'm forgetting...
31
kaboum: 2005-09-25
To continue on Kantuna's reply (2005-09-16)
"Anyway, If only fire is involved, why did the fire make dragonmount. Well, here's why.
Dragonmount isn't a mountain, it's a volcano. "
When re-reading CoT these past few weeks, I noticed something I hadn't the first time. Someone observed (Egwene?) smoke coming out of dragonmount. No big emphasis on it but it was in the description of the scenery (sorry I don't have to book with me for the quote).
But this made me realise that it is in fact a volcano and that perhaps it will erupt in the last battle, temporarily blocking the sun. Could this be the twice dawn in the prophecies?
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Yaga Shura: 2005-09-25
kaboum:
"But this made me realise that it is in fact a volcano and that perhaps it will erupt in the last battle, temporarily blocking the sun. Could this be the twice dawn in the prophecies?"
It could be, but I doubt it personally. That would have to be a massive explosion to block out the sun everywhere, and the resulting debris would not clear within 24 hours.
Kantuna:
"Anyway, a bit long winded but it makes a mountain without earth."
Sorry, what? Fire from above made fire come up from below? Magnetic fire now, is it?
Callandor:
"It is possible it used to be in the area where the city melted and is now inhabitable soil. "
It wasn't just soil quality that was the issue, but the whole layout of the landscape. You may be right though.
therobotbadger:
"The passage is simply too vague on a lot of areas."
But on the key one, what LTT was doing, it is very specific. He was drawing, just drawing, not channeling. Nice cop out.
silverwolf:
"I don't think there's enough evidence that women from the Two Rivers are strong earth/fire channelers (two strong in earth out of dozens? that might be a higher-than-normal-ration, but we don't know that for sure)"
I'm not sure that it is two of dozens. How many manetheren blood girls do we have this kind of detail on? Two, maybe three (not sure if we know about Nynaeve). That's a monster percentage.
" or evidence of release in the form of other powers to justify saying that all overdoses result in a release of the One Power in the forms of whatever power you channel strongest."
That I could agree to. Perhaps Earth and Fire are just what happens.
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silverwolf: 2005-09-26
Yaga: We don't know for sure what power all of the channelers from the Two Rivers are proficient in, but we do know that of all of those brought rounded up by Verin and Alanna, only Bode exhibited the skill in earth for the making of heartstone. Also, although a seemingly large percentage of those whose strength in the power we know are strong in earth, the sample group is very small and does not necessarily represent a general trend. For example, at the beginning of the series, the only male channelers we had knowledge of were Rand, Logain, Taim, and the Forsaken, all of whom are powerful enough that it would take several Aes Sedai to overwhelm them. Based on this small sampling, one would assume that all male channelers are significantly stronger than all female channelers (five times the average female strength or better, considering that it took 6 sisters to maintain the shield on Logain). Now, we know that a somewhat strong male channeler (Jahar Narishma) is not yet as strong as Merise (evidence of this is in CoT). The only conclusion is that we were given a sampling that did not represent the whole--with knowledge of only a few female channelers from the Two Rivers, any trend will likely seem more common than in other channelers.
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JakOShadows: 2005-09-26
I think ya'll are trying to make this too complicated. Couldn't the overdosing on the one power cause it to explode from them and in that moment it takes time for the flow to stop. In that moment, the one power cause catastrophic events to the land around the person. Then once the flow is eventually stopped, the destruction is stopped. It doesn't have to be a specific thing to release a large amount of energy and destroy something.
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Yaga Shura: 2005-09-26
"with knowledge of only a few female channelers from the Two Rivers, any trend will likely seem more common than in other channelers."
The difference is that all the two rivers channelers share blood ties, but the male channelers in general do not.
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silverwolf: 2005-09-27
But the analogy is still the same--the sample group is too small to have any degree of certainty as to what abilities each person has. For example, based on your assumptions, you could argue that half of the female channelers from the Two Rivers are destined to be unbelievably good at healing--of the women from the Two Rivers, we know that Nynaeve is very good at healing, we know that Egwene is not, and we know nothing as to the Healing skills of any other channeler from the Two Rivers. Are you willing to accept that fully one half of the girls from the Two Rivers will be miraculously good at Healing? In order to establish a reasonable trend among a group of people, you must have data on more than 2 or 3 (or even 10 or more) people within the group; anything less will indicate false trends and magnify the likelihood of abnormalities.
37
Dragoon: 2005-10-06
Lemagrag, I don't belive LTT balefired himself. I believe that he overdosed. To channel you have to "Draw" the OP So that indicates it is somwhere outside the universe and I believe that he drew so much so fast that it actually became visible, because I believe When you draw it your body has to absorb it inside to release it as a weave but since LTT drew so much that he could'nt absorb it all fast enough which if he could have would have burnt him out so it engulfed him in this bar of pure energy. Y'know like in that episode of Malcom in the middle when Francis tries to eat 100 Quacks and one cadet argue's that even if he ate them all the insulin wouldn't be able to absorb it all fast enough
