Tamyrlin: 2003-04-17

I can't remember the part in the books...but why are you of the belief that Saidin and/or Saidar were almost used up? It just seemed to me that when Rand was doing it, less and less of the One Power was required as the last of the taint was cleansed...but maybe I am forgetting something. This could have something to do with it...but I don't think it is possible to use up the OP...as far as I know it is an infinite source...

Rand-althor: 2003-04-17

It has been said many, many times that Saidin and Saidar are endless, imposssable to use up by channeling, because channeling uses none of it up, as Moiraine said when she compared Saidar to a river, and a channeler to a wattermill. I like the analogy that I have seen about the One Power being like a sea, and the cleansing, taking so much of the power has causes a "whirlpool" like effect.(Im sorry to whoever made this analogy, I would give you credit, but I cant find it again) and if the dead "escaped" as you put it, then why would they appear, then dissapear. If they escaped and were "free" then they would be a constant in the world. And also the only person who we have a POV from who actually saw them(Mat) they seemed to not notice him at all. They would notice, and probably have some sort of communication with the living if they had just escaped and were walking around.

Highbreaker: 2003-04-17

I am half way inbetween you and the Tamyrlin. I think that you are on to something here, but I also think the OP is limitless. I don't know if you read my theory called As the wheel turns..., but it has a large argument in it about that theory. The OP being limited was pretty much an idea that has been put down. Anyway though... the age lace getting messed up. I have to concur. Maybe it was just cause there was a such a large concentration of the OP in one place. I have always likened the OP to the lifestream in FF7. and well, If too much had to rush to one place on the earth... that could cause some TEMPORARY problems easily...

Callandor: 2003-04-17

STOP WITH THIS! The True Source cant be used up entirely. THATS IMPOSSIBLE!

Rand didnt channel or use up all of saidin and saidar or even close to in when cleansing the taint. He did however channel an IMMENSE amount of saidin through his tube of pure saidar and pulled the taint toward Shadar Logoth through the way of the evil of the DO being attracted to the evil of Shadar Logoth. After that all he had to do was hold on to the Source till he felt enough of it went through.

Go to the WOT FAQ and you can read on this exact thing.

Niall: 2003-04-17

I must have mistyped something...Rand DIDN'T use up Saidin or Saidar, but from my impression of the cleansing process, Rand channeled Saidin through a huge quantity of Saidar, and the taint for some reason couldn't go with it, so it got stuck in Shadar Logoth, destroying the Taint and the city. But ALL of Saidin was tainted, so all of it had to go through the tube of Saidar to cleanse it completely. Unless my understanding of the process is off, and it could be very easily, Saidin went through the Saidar tube, and the taint stayed and was destroyed.

I also read the theory in the WoT FAQ one of the repliers to this theory wrote about (I hadn't known about it till now, thank you.) I would point out something about that. The WOTfaq suggests that Rand channeled through the tube until the taint went through on its own. But he actually channeled Saidin until it was done as near as I can tell. Unfortunately there is no direct evidence of this that I could find, but I know he thought about how the taint was moving and now he just had to hold on to Saidin. This means one of two things. One is-I'm right and he channeled every bit of tainted Saidin, two is-the WoTfaq is right, and he knew he couldn't let go. To be fair, I'll admit that that could mean he just had to keep Saidin and SL connected, so it could be a possibility.

Either way, my theory still stands. The Choedan Kal were MADE

Niall: 2003-04-17

to channel huge amounts of the One Power, and even if you reject my theory that it was all of it, that could still have been enough to affect the turning of the Wheel.

But you were definitely right that I should have read the WoTFAQ. If I'd known about it, my theories (All four of them) would have been very different. Sorry to all my theory readers about that. Your patience is appreciated. Also, please forgive the double-entry. My finger slipped and I submitted my reply before it was done.

Callandor: 2003-04-17

The taint wasnt in all of saidin it was a slim film of oil covering it so that no matter what you had to do you had to go through that filth to get to the pure saidin but it was tainted on the top not all the way through.

Weird Harold: 2003-04-18

IMHO, There is a common misconception that Saidar alone is failing. I think both Saidar and Saidin weaves were affected, but because there are so many more permanent or static weaves made with Saidar, they are simply noticed more. Wards and Keepings are both static weaves that temporarily lost power when a large amount of the True Source was diverted to the cleansing. As Tamyrlin points out, the True Source is infinite, but local shortages -- like a brown-out in an electrical grid -- are apparently possible.

Rand-althor said, "I like the analogy that I have seen about the One Power being like a sea, and the cleansing, taking so much of the power has causes a "whirlpool" like effect.(Im sorry to whoever made this analogy, I would give you credit, but I cant find it again) and if the dead "escaped" as you put it, then why would they appear, then dissapear."

That analogy is one I've used, although I'm not sure I can claim sole credit for it. With respect to the ghosts, I don't think they are related to any problems with the True Source. I haven't found a theory that does explain them adeqautely, but I can't see any connection between the dead walking and the cleansing of the Taint. The ghosts in So Habor had apparently been a problem for some time prior to the Cleansing and So Habor is well beyond the area where the Strangeness in the True Source caused by the Bowl Of TheWinds was felt.

I envision the Cleansing as much like skimming the grease from gravy: Rand channeled enough Saidin to create a "depression" or "Zone of Low Pressure" the Taint would flow into and used Saidar to create a siphon tube from the depression to SL. Once the "skimmer" was set up, he only had to hold it steady until all of the Taint had been siphoned away.

The Taint was consistently described as "floating on top of Saidin, like an oil slick," which clearly implies that only the surface of Saidin was tainted. My understanding of the cleansing process is that it was the Taint that flowed through the tube of Saidar with only enough Saidin sent through the tube to start the siphoning process. The massive use of Saidin was only to create and maintain the "depression" for the Taint to pool in so it could be siphoned away.

I think there is a very remote possibility that the amount of power used could have affected the turning of the Wheel temporarily, but I have trouble reconciling the concept of an infinite power source being affected significantly by any finite use, however large. The BotW only afected the True Source in a relatively small area, as compared to the entire World, and the Cleansing had no obvious adverse effect on the True Source.

IMHO, the Failing Wards is more a function of stronger vermin than of weaker wardings. It's possible that a brown-out effect caused some to actually weaken, but wards and keepings placed after the cleansing also seem to be less effective as well and the weevils in So Habor are more resistant to cold which has nothing to do with Wardings, keepings or the One Power.

Callandor: 2003-04-18

I agree with you Harold, if more saidin wards existed we could find out if both things are being effected, like if the ward guarding Callandor were still there we would know for sure.

However, I still have yet to come to a solid opinion.

solomonrex: 2003-04-21

Back to the taint and the OP- if the taint was finite (drawn through a tube and it didn't take forever) why isn't the OP finite? You could't access Saidin without encountering the taint, so if one is infinite, the other is, and vice versa. Oh, it can be huge beyond imagining, like the ocean.

RJ hasn't indicated that the OP is merely 'magic' but to me it seems to increasingly follow the laws of physics- there was a taint on the surface, which suggest gravity (which is how surfaces form for liquids) Moraine compares it to a waterwheel and river- and rivers are finite, and the Aes Sedai can carry finite amounts in belts, pockets and maybe 'Roos. It's like the mirror worlds- there are not infinite mirror worlds in RJ's universe, because there are a finite number of people and a finite number of decisions. I accept that both quantities might be so large as to seem infinite to a pre-modern society, but I still think we may have a large renewable resource on our hands, not an infinite one.

I say the difference between the Creator and creation is infinity- creations are bound by time and space and are never infinite, the Creator is.

'Who was, and is, and is to come.'

Highbreaker: 2003-05-03

Hey, itrs been a while, but.. since I started rereading tEotW, I decided I have to post this quote on EVERY argument I can find that someone has sasid the OP can runout. It is very Definitive.

Moiraine, Book 1, chapter 12 -across the Taren, page 169:

"No," Moiraine said in answer to a question Rand had missed, " the True Source cannot be used up, any more than the river can be used up by the wheel of a mill. the true source is a river; the Aes Sedai, the waterwheel."

Also, for those of you that doubt that the OP drives the wheel of time (which is why it can't be used up)as I have often repeated... here is another quote. The citation is the same as above, except for on page 168...

"The One Power," Moiraine was saying, "comes from the True Source, the driving force of creation, the force the Creator made to drive the wheel of time."

Together, these quote prove a few things...

1)the True Source is Finite, but not reusable persay... it isn't really destroyed in the usage...it just gets recycled. (unless of course I misinterpreted Solomon)

2)It can not have been used up, and there could not have been a "power outage"...

3) Therefore, the walking dead, ect. has nothing to do with what Rand did...

I suggest that it is the DO's power growing. -Highbreaker

Mathwin: 2003-05-04

I always thought Rand created, yes, like a tube, which didn't take away the taint itself but which channeled (in the sense of water, not Channeling) it off to somewhere else, while the rest of saidin kept on going and the remaining taint, having no source, merely washed away.

WOTlover: 2012-01-29

I think the taint on saidin was like a broken sewage pipe contaminating a reservoir. All who drink form the reservoir taste the poo, but the reservoir is not the source of the water.

The dark one's taint was definitely finite. That is, the sewer pipe only had so much poo. I think the taint would have been cleaned away eventually, being filtered into the minds of male channelers. The same way flowing water would wash away contaminants. Rand just sped the process (probably by ages) by filtering it onto Shadar Logoth.

I do remember Rand saying he must have channeled nearly all of it. But that's really just speculation on his part.

Denul: 2012-02-08

Ever since i re read Nyneave's testing I have thought that the entire pattern is woven with the threads of the saidin and saidar. So once something is dies or is destryed its threads are added back into the pool to be reused.