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he Secret of the Guild of the Illuminators

by a dragonburned fool: 2003-10-30 | 3 out of 10 (4 votes)

Previous Categories: Aludra and Mat

When Rand is visiting the School of Cairhien with all the inventors, he notices that there are no military projects at all except Idrien's ballista. There is a good reason for it: all the inventors come with their old books and have their initial ideas from there, all the inventions are actually re-inventions. And because all the high-tec is something from the AoL and in AoL there was no military technics, it's clear that only residues of memories about peaceful gadgets are to find. But I think there's something more in such loss of ideas for military inventions. I see mark of will to avoid military inventions.

I can not believe that nobody in the long full of furious wars history of the 3Age had some "insight" about military use of fireworks. It's obvious for every idiot, that they can harm men, and that's not dififcult to see they can do it in very high degree. There was a plenty of situations when the military men were ready to use everything to win and fireworks are more likely to be used than the help of AS, for instance. Why nobody got an Illuminator in his torture-room for persuading him to develope a new weapon? Why an Illuminator himself not doing it for saving his country from Trollocs or something like that? I cannot find any reason for it except that there is will to prevent such military use, an will deeper than ordinary seeking for monopoly. And there are forces, wich want very much such things as firearms never being invented.

The WT is of course interested in firearms never being invented. Traditionaly for many reasons they don't like powerful weapons not in their control; they want being supposed as extraordinally strong and invincible and everything that could threaten that image is to be radicaly and very decisively and very discretly removed; they are mad in destroying everything that could look like AS-action that not their own and using firearms in battle could be eventually supposed by some people for using OP-devices i battle, therefore for the WT sake...; if there are firearms, AS will be needed not in the degree they are needed now in difficult situations; AS educational traditions imply the ideal of the peaceful society and every high destructive knowlege will be allways regarded as great evil and if it's nesessary to use it, only the AS theirself can do it and only secretly... Short to say AS will without doubt make all their efforts to avoid the exisetnce of everything resembling a firearm. And if an AS finds out somebody intends to use firework in warfare, she will regard it as her duty to stop such attempts once for ever and doing everything for preventing another attempts of that type. And such attempts most posssibly took place.

And if AS didn't find it out, every clever one could imagine, what AS would say and do and that's reason for making the firearms idea prohibited before an AS comes.

If you want not only hiding some idea, but preventing it's reinvention, you have to create good reasons against thinking in that direction, something like connecting some important points of the dangerous idea with unclear but really GREAT another danger and creating an organisation dedicated to remember that another danger. The memebrs of that organisation must never suspect the real danger but be very engaged in serving their secret guard function in the fighting the another danger. That means the organisation has to be high secret in their inner rules and not very important in their official appearance and have the opportunity to hold the monopoly of something needed for the firearms. That's the way that any eventual new inventor not doing his work alone but first he will cross his way with the organisation and they will stop him.

My hypothese is that the Guild is created as such organization.

Why is the secret-loving Guild from Tanchico so extreme secret-loving? Every Guild in WoT World likes secrets but the Illuminators are some levels above them all in this hobby, they are more secret-loving even as the WT! They are known for quick killing everybody seeking for their secrets and similar things too close to claiming for some privileges only lords have (and even privileges only rulers have) in Westlands. Why the local lords don't stop the crazy autonomy of some bloody craftsmen (lords in WoT never have something against showing craftsmen where their place and they always have the possibility for it)? Illuminators seem never participating in politics and they are only used, not taking part in the Great Game. Why the King and the Panarch are so tolerant to them. Actually they are not so useful as showmen, they are even not usible for spy service (only idiots like Omerna could think they are, as Pedron Nial states). No other official organisation has so drastic rules for keeping secrets. And what for? Only for the monopoly on fireworks? In all cases I thing there is (at least was in the beginning) some greater force behind them to guarantee their privileges.

I don't say AS are behind the Guild now. I don't say they are the first directors of it. I think if they created the Guild they have done it in the way the Guild itself never can suspect their help. And I'm sure, if there is WT link in the Guild, that it is secret not for every AS too. We know, that AS like hiding secrets from themselves, and that's the way to deal with an idea wich is to be forgotten. Actually AS don't know now nothing about that hypothetical Gild-creatin operation. But they know some related things, some residues of memories about it, without knowing it's real significance.

Now, the Guild knows the most important things to create firearms, they allways have known it, because they must have the minimum knowledge about the prohibited for effectively prohibite it. Of course they don't know enough for real firearm, ther's needed an inventor for some details needed for practical producing weapons. And their tradition built strong barriers in their minds against any military use, some of them in the form of very strong arguments, some of them in the form of irrational collective feelings. What happens when Aludra is out of the Guild and the Seanchan took Tanchico? Not that the barriers falled, Aludra is in her way faithful to the guild. But the situation changes in the way that another unsupposed chance may occur and there's no Guild more to stop it in teh proper way. Aludra wants to save the Guild, but the Guild regardes her as a traitor. For her returning into the Guild as their Mistress she has to demonstrate her importance for the Guild to survive and for their Secret too. When she's communicating with the salt merchants and similar in CoT (obviously buying great ammounts of the gunpowder ingradients) that can not been hiden from the survived Illuminators (organisation of their type will have ways to be informed about such things), and she knows it. She will contact with the Illuminators with her conditions. We don't know all about what conditions. But I have some thoughts abouts Mat's role in her plans.

If my hypothese is right, the Illuminators can have some unclear idea about some great secret force, that is in some way in in their conspiracy. Any changes doing with their secret is impossible without the support of that unknown another force. My 2-d hypothese is that Aludra thinks that Mat is someway willing or nonwilling agent of that another force. (Maybe that thoughts leaded her to behaveat strange reserved way to Tom, who seems like and is actualy high-ranked conspirator. Another conspirator will allways recognize him - like the case with Mor the Seeker. When Aludra speaks not with Tom, she tells him "I'm playing our secret game"). When Mat tells her about his new-weapons ideas, she can think that another force maybe wants some changes too. But she must be sure. What make conspirators when wanting to be sure they are speaking with the right man? They ask for password. The best password if there's no convention about, is some question concerning the common secret. And we have Aludra's riddle.

Now if the supposed another force are the AS, some of them will know something useful for thew riddle. If they realy don't know what their fragments of knowledge means, and knowing with our ta'veren there are two formal sitters and one AS with some connections with Tarabon affairs, and all they are depending on Mat, they could give Mat the clue he needs to solve the riddle. And Aludra will think WT is for reinventing firearms. So Mat will get new weapons and Aludra will manage the Guild to become monopolist in firearms industry. That's the prediction based on my hypotheses.
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Comments

1

Tamyrlin: 2003-11-04

While we don't have any direct information connecting the AS, their plots, and the Illuminators, I do like the implication of their secret society and the fact that they have prevented fireworks from becoming a household item. Like the "you are gonna shoot your eye out" logic, it scares away people from wanting to know more or to try it on their own. I doubt Mat was the first to consider, as you suggest, their military application, but those who have tried have probably been killed. Someone should ask Jordan if the AS had a hand in the creation of the Guild or the secrecy by which their guild is bound.

2

WinespringBrother: 2003-11-04

I think RJ mentioned in an interview that the Illuminators are partially modeled after the infamous secret society, the Illuminati, who supposedly have safeguarded conspiracies over the span of centuries. And in the pre-industrial society that is Randland, I can see the Illuminators pulling off a similar stunt.

As for connections with the White Tower, I don't see it. The White Tower doesn't seem to be too concerned with science (except for the Brown Ajah who studies it, or maybe the Yellow for healing applications) - since they have the supernatural at their beck and call.

3

Korell: 2003-11-05

here are a couple things to think about first off the riddle Aludra gave mat was about cannons and i dont think it has anything to do with a guild secret because when Rand is inside the Guild walls in Cahrien the launchers were made of wood i belive like the ones people use now days the other thing is this

I do belive Firearms will play a significant role in war very soon however i think there is little reason the AS should fear them for one major reason

I am an AS i am good with Air and can light a fire and that is about it i am not strong but not weak 10 men have guns pointed at me first i plug the barrels of the guns with air so they will back fire and next i set off the pouches which hold their gunpowder for reloading with fire thus i have effectivly beaten 10 men with guns

if the AS know much about Fireworks i doubt they are really that worried about it i belive the hard core Illuminatiors just kill anyone who wants to make their secrets widly known besides AS are very rarley on the battle field for more then healing

4

Weird Harold: 2003-11-05

"I can not believe that nobody in the long full of furious wars history of the 3Age had some "insight" about military use of fireworks. It's obvious for every idiot, that they can harm men, and that's not dififcult to see they can do it in very high degree."

This is no harder for me to believe than the historical fact that black-powder and fireworks were known in China for about 2,000 years before Europeans invented cannons.

Fireworks (rockets) were used militarily on occasion by the Chinese, but they were indecisive and unreliable.

The lack of firearms in the WOT parallels the real world history of gunpowder and firearms and isn't unrealistic at all, IMHO.

5

Cor Shan: 2003-11-05

That makes sence, no WT involvment. (that dot goes at the end of a sentence Korrel).

We use paper for launchers not wood, but cannons are strictly Aludra's idea. But the Mu'ket will be valuable in the beginning, before AS or Damane, or Forsaken learn about the weapons. (Forsaken and AS wont learn about it out of arrogance, but imagine Moggy getting blasted with the Legion of the Dragons new shotguns :)) The Guild is Dead. Over. Damane blew it up.

6

: 2003-11-06

Actually there are no evidence the Tower is in the plot, but, I'm sure there is good possibility, I see no other force with the strong motives, possibilities, power, experience to do it and the conspirative spirit to mach in. And the AS-plot hypothesis is a chance for Mat to solve his riddle (he's not a technical mind to do it alone and he has no proper allies for it).

Winespringbrother,

AS are really not so interested in technology, but they are extremely interested in everything leading people to connecting events with the Tower, no means how foolish this connecting may be. I don't think AS could learn about the first invention by speaking with technicians about their odd ideas. But it could be a spy report about some general said something like "Give me hudred of them and we..."; or a foolish but widespread gossip about misterious AS who is supposed to be guilty for some misteriuos massacre (and AS knowing it's not a sister); or an accident by proofing a new invention, an accident enough for gossips; or even a factical working cannon (why not); or some other event (not project) with real changes to change the world, and AS decided they don't like such change.

Korell,

AS realy don't fear so much facing dangers in battle and any channelers have advantages against guns. But what AS realy fear and fear it very much, is any decreasing of their diplomatic strenght and any spots on their image. And firearms use is bad for their position in world politics, and in the period of their first use it's bad for their peaceful image too. We see in the series that ignorant people are ready to believe AS after every incident with explosion (as the men attacking Mat and Tom on their way to Caemlin). First use of firearms will lead among opponents and neutrals lot of gossips EXTREMELY unpleasant for every AS. And the first-glance-similarity between the effects of guns and the common AS weapons (fireballs and thunderbolts) is something AS wuold never like. Gun armed troops would not need so much AS against Trollocs or False Dragons, and would be some degrees stronger, therefore harder to do something against. AS will be very sensitive to any weapon strong enough to be compared with OP military use (firearms are no doubt not so strong as batteleweaves, but could be compared). And concerning two of their Oaths and their claiming being heirs of AoL traditions and doctrines, AS will have realy great prejudices about any new powerful weapons, especialy if they are undependent from the Tower. And last, for AS and chanellers at all firearms are more dangerous then Your presenting of it. Mat thinks fireworks (what's much much less then firearms) would give him the chances against army with damane (what's stronger then army with AS), and Mat's opinion on military problems means there are no problems with it in RJ's story. But the motives of AS being against firearms are in first place diplomatical motives.

Weird Harold,

China is a point. But Chinese used fireworks military at occasion, and WoT-landers not even occasionaly (if they used it, I think Mat would remember something about, he's too much concerned in his firearms-plans to miss such memory) and that's suspicious. Thank you for pointing out that Chinese use of fireworks was not decisiv. That's because I think it's real firearms that have to be invented in the past, when the Guild was created. The fireworks are not to be so decisive and to be feared and not worth to make such a secret from them. But firearms...

Cor Shan,

the Guild is not dead. After the destroying their hall in Tanchiko we see lot of references about Illuminators trying to recover - Omerna is protecting some of them, a group of them tried to make a show in Ebou Dar, many Illuminators do trade for collecting money for building new Guild Chapter somewhere far from danger. The Guild is not dead.

7

a dragonburned fool: 2003-11-06

the untitled text above is my reply

8

natas: 2003-11-06

Very nice theory.

It makes me again question why Herold Fel was killed. It's very possible what Fel had discovered at the school had nothing to do with the power, the seals, or cleansing the taint.

Fel may have discovered gunpowder, and it's use.

The question that comes to mind, is why would Shai Tan, or the Foresaken fear guns? Enough so, that a gholhm was sent to kill him, in an extremely heinous way. What was it, only 3 or 5 of them were made; a couple of male and female? Highly dangerous assasins, that even some of the Foresaken didn't like.

Nice theory.

9

Jiana: 2003-11-06

Mat's riddle, as posed by Aludra: "Tell me why I would need a bell founder." (paraphrase)

I have been turning this over and over, and haven't been able to really come up with anything. Been dying to ask you guys, but it never came up before now. The only thing I can think of is that she wants to use the metal used to make bells to make a super-launcher, or cannon. Am I stating the obvious?

10

Callandor: 2003-11-07

**The only thing I can think of is that she wants to use the metal used to make bells to make a super-launcher, or cannon. Am I stating the obvious?**

Bellfounders were the only ones in the Middle Ages that delt with bronze on a large enough scale so they were the only ones that could make mortor tubes. However, I am not a historian or a firearms expert (or anything like that) so I could be misleading you or totally wrong.

11

Cor Shan: 2003-11-07

The Earlist cannons were a short bronze barrle that had a bore in the back for the fuse. the bell founder could easily make such an item.

Oh, and Fool, good point- I didn't notice that.

12

Weird Harold: 2003-11-08


Mat's riddle, as posed by Aludra: "Tell me why I would need a bell founder." (paraphrase)

The answer to that riddle is obvious to anyone knowledgable about the history of firearms in the real world -- the first cannon were cast from bronze in the same way that bells are cast.

In the absense of an arms foundry, only a bell founder has the knowledge and facilities for casting cannon.

13

Elder Haman: 2003-11-08

Bell founders are the only people in a pre-firearm society who have the skills nessecary to build cannons. Thus in our own world's history the first cannons were made by bell founders- and look suspiciously like bells. RJ ovbiously did his homework.

14

Jiana: 2003-11-10

And I didn't do mine. :) Thanks for your answers.

15

Oatman: 2004-02-07

Maybe everyones thinking to hard about the riddle and making it harder than it is. Aludra never said she needed the bellfounder for anything to do with fireworks. Perhaps she would use a bellfounder to have a bell made for herself.

16

apoorv020: 2009-07-02

Quote : "And because all the high-tec is something from the AoL and in AoL there was no military technics,..."

This is wrong since Demadred,rahvin etc. several times mention shocklances(which seem to be weapons used by the mass of the army).