1
Tamyrlin: 2003-02-21
I usually don't post questions...but then I realized, the errors in the book section isn't really a theory, it is more of a statement section so, as to your answer.
The Black Ajah do remove their old oaths but then they take new oaths binding them to the BA. That is why their ageless look remains.
2
jayenigma: 2003-04-01
"I forswear all oaths..."
Is that not, itself, an oath? They're not really removing any oaths with that, just changing them to a 'blank' one.
3
Jiana: 2003-04-19
Yes, Tamyrlin is 100% correct on that. The BA use an Oath Rod (either the one in the WT or a different one we don't know about), to forswear the Three Oaths, and then swear different oaths. I asked the same question recently, and was quickly set straight by my fellow readers here. :)
4
Anubis: 2003-04-20
the black aja oaths are more to ensure obiediance, and lack of betrayal, as well as to keep BA sisters with the ageless look. could you imagine if they didnt swear? they would stick out alot
5
Dorindha: 2003-04-21
I also think that if the oaths are removed properly (with an oath rod) it doesn't affect any existing ageless look, that only happens with stilling/burning out. Obviously the BA also have their "new trinity" of oaths.
6
notsoevil1: 2003-06-15
I seem to recall that the ageless look is caused by years of work with the power not the Oath Rod. Maybe i missed something?
7
Weird Harold: 2003-06-15
notsoevil1 said, "Maybe i missed something?"
Yes, you missed something, or haven't gotten to it yet.
Aes Sedai (and others) believe that the ageless look comes from using the power for along time, but the "Supergirls" have met many other channelers who use more power and have used it longer than any Aes Sedai who has ever been bound by the Oaths -- they do not have the "ageless look" AND they tend to live as much as twice as long at the oldest known Aes Sedai -- Cadsuane is the oldest living at 295 and the oldest known is a figure from history whose name I forget who died at 300 even (according to the information given, which is probably not exact.)
Alivia, the former Damane is 414 and does NOT have an ageless look -- she looks "just past middle age."
The Oldest Kin is nearly 600 and not as strong in the OP as Reanne, the "Eldest" in Ebou Dar.
8
Callandor: 2003-06-15
Thats the Aes Sedai assumption. They dont know that the Oath Rod would cause the ageless look or the shortening of lifespans. They didnt think of these or had any clue that they would have any other effects besides the oaths themselves.
Look at when Siuan and Leane are stilled. They lose the oaths and the agelessness face, AND there time channeling with the three Oaths still binding them was taken away and produced the younger look.
9
rubbernilly: 2003-06-16
notsoevil -
It cannot be simply years of working with the one power that grants the ageless look - otherwise the Kin would have it, as would the channelers among the Aiel, and the windfinders among the Sea Folk.
The AS *think* it is long use of the power that gives that look, simply because they are egotistical enough to believe that they are the only people really using the power - that they find the girls capable of channeling and make them AS.
So what separates the AS from the others mentioned? Their oaths on the rod.
We know that the rod was a method of punishment and behavior control in the AoL, and that there were many of them around. There were also binding chairs for those who could not channel (I believe). We also know that as the oaths settle in, it feels like the skin is being stretched a bit tighter... which sounds like the start of the ageless look.
Now, here's a question:
We know Egwene wants AS to be free of the 3 oaths as they go into retirement. How would they be free of them? It has to be some sort of forswearing of the old oaths. And just because the word "swear" is in there, don't take it to mean that the AS is still swearing *something*, and just replacing the 3 Oaths with something else (a blank oath). I don't think that holds with the meaning of foreswear, nor with the needs of Egwene: if all foreswearing did was replace 3 oaths with one blank one, then the AS's life would still be shortened, and there would be no gain as they went out into retirement. Therefore, foreswearing must get rid of the binding of the oaths entirely.
So, here is my question - if that is true, that foreswearing removes all of the oaths completely and because of this the ageless look goes away, too, what is going to be the result of the BA hunt in the WT? At one point we have an AS musing that she had not thought about conflicting oaths, and that, to be prudent and cautious, they were going to have to have every sister they questioned foreswear all oaths first before retaking the 3 oaths. If they go through with this, aren't they going to have a bunch of suddenly young looking AS?
Maybe this will play into Egwene's hands. She'll be able to show the proof that the oaths shorten their lives.
Now, I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that Cadsuane will also be important to this whole process. She is not a supporter of Egwene. Cadsuane recognizes Elaida as the rightful Amyrlin Seat, if by the narrowest interpretation of the law, it's just that she (Cadsuane) has other things to do than answer the call from the Amyrlin to return to the WT. So, when Egwene gets to power, it will go a long way to resolve the two sides if Cadsuane supports her. It will also go a long way towards supporting Egwene's dictum regarding being freed of the oaths if Cadsuane (being the oldest living AS - and especially old, at that) is the first to volunteer for this procedure. I think Cadsuane sees herself as far to valuable and with far too much to do to allow herself to have her life shortened by 1/2.
10
Rhodric: 2003-06-30
rubbernilly:
"So, here is my question - if that is true, that foreswearing removes all of the oaths completely and because of this the ageless look goes away, too, what is going to be the result of the BA hunt in the WT? At one point we have an AS musing that she had not thought about conflicting oaths, and that, to be prudent and cautious, they were going to have to have every sister they questioned foreswear all oaths first before retaking the 3 oaths. If they go through with this, aren't they going to have a bunch of suddenly young looking AS?"
I think it's a matter of skin stretching. (the Oaths stretch your skin - read Galina's oathtaking to the Shaido WO).
When Siuan and Leana were stilled, they didn't notice that they looked younger until they had been free of their oath for a full day. Their skin had time to loosen out. (same goes for the AS that Rand stilled at Dumai's Wells).
when Talene was released from the BA oaths, she retook the regular AS oaths immediately afterwards, and so the oaths settled and her skin remained 'ageless'. (ie. taut, stretched onto her body). her skin had no time to relax back to its natural youthfulness.
so there won't be any young looking AS if they take the oaths immediately after foreswearing all others.
actually maybe skin tightening is a better term.
11
Frenzy: 2003-06-30
Remember, the Aes Sedai in Salidar were surprised at the affects of Stilling had on Siuan and Leane. Granted, it's been a while since anyone was formally Stilled, but i'm sure the effects are documented.
Siuan and Leane had more done to them than just Stilling. It's known that they were tortured as well. And considering the Black Ajah had a hand in it all, i wouldn't be surprised if more was done to them that we don't know about.
My point is that it takes more than just Stilling to lose the ageless look.
And considering Sammael gave Sevana an Oath Rod, i'm sure the Black Ajah have one squirreled away for their initiation ceremonies. Or they just ~borrow~ the main one. After all, Seaine and Perava did.
12
Rhodric: 2003-07-01
Frenzy:
"Granted, it's been a while since anyone was formally Stilled, but i'm sure the effects are documented."
the effects are not documented. no-one would study it until Nynaeve. the last stilling was the amyrlin who betrayed Manetheren (was it not?). a looooong time ago.
besides that, what about the tower AS who Rand stilled at Dumai's wells? they lost the ageless look as well. there was nothing further done to them with the power, and they weren't even tortured; the Wise Ones thought stilling was punishment enough. and they lost the ageless look.
if you mean how did they gain life, like Siuan looks 20, but she's about 40, um... they would have looked that young due to slowing if they didn't use the oath rod.
13
Vander: 2003-10-05
stilling is all that caused Siuan and Leanne to lose the ageless look. siuan figured that the rough treatment caused it to happen faster, but she did say it was caused by the stilling. the other aes sedai that have been stilled or burned out got as far away from aes sedai as they could.
14
mako0424: 2003-12-06
what i wonder is it seems obvious that the Black Ajah take on new oaths with the turning over sides, but if they do, what are they?
the obvious guess would appear to be one of complete opposites. White tower, blackajah, maybe
they can only lie
they can only try and make weapons to harm people or when they take lives.
u know like that. just a thought though
15
Callandor: 2003-12-06
**they can only lie
they can only try and make weapons to harm people or when they take lives.**
They would be found out in seconds then if they ONLY told lies.
16
natas: 2003-12-07
This may be way off topic; and I apologize if it is. But there appears to be more to the Oath Rod(s) than just swearing oaths. The oaths taken can be a form of compulsion as is seen with Pervara and the AS working the tower for the black ajah. The oath that Pervara and the others give is to obey them specifically.
Further, when freed from an oath rod, AS can lie. Egwene has lied, Suian has lied, leanne has lied; along with those of the BA. Can't remember specifically, but Suian made a statement that she was ready to retake the oaths because lying was becoming too easy.
As for the ageless features, I always thought it was the use of the power that caused that. Several references from the supergirls say that they will like being AS better when they get the ageless look with time using the one power. Can't remember if it was Sammal or another forsaken saying something to the affect that the oath rod is what causes the AS to die younger, or be "imprisoned" by the oath rod. The reason I think this is important is because AS do age, and the Salidar AS were astounded by the ages of the kin. The kin has the ageless features, but because they are so much older than the AS, they look "middle age".
Additionally, an issue I would like to see Jordan address are the numbers on the oath rods. The oath rod in the tower has the number "3" on it; which most AS thought stood for the three oaths. But we find the oath rod given to Sevana with the number "131". This could mean that there are numerous oath rods; and the oath rods known now maybe being used not for there intended purposes.
17
Anubis: 2003-12-07
the oaths are somthing along the line of obediance to the dark one. not betraying any current plots, etc etc
18
talanis: 2004-02-17
As I understand it, the Oath Rod kinda screws the Aes Sedai. At any rate, what the rod does is limits their age to 300 years, max, and gives em the ageless look. If simply usin the power gave the ageless look, the Kin would be screwed, as would the Sea Folk. The Aiel, not so much since no one really manages to talk to the Wise Ones. But the Kin couldn't exactly hide if they looked like Aes Sedai, now could they?
19
Arbryan: 2004-02-23
What we know of the Oath Rod is that it was originally for binding prisoners. It very well could be that the more you were required to swear on it the more severe the affects. Perhaps the reason there were only 2 original oaths could be that 2 was the line between minor and major penalty. When the AS added the third Oath it may have triggered the shorter lifespan and could even have placed a restriction on the power their offspring would be capable of (DNA carrying traits of the parent to the child, children of a criminal might have been seen to be more prone to become criminals themselves). That knowledge may have been Sealed in the Tower, or Lost entirely and thus the Hall may have done so in ignorance (or Amyrlin - I forget who had the final say in adding the 3rd Oath and unforunately I can't look it up at work).
20
Khaos: 2004-02-24
I think it is pretty much established that the oath rod is what causes the ageless look and not any of the other suggested factors.
It also certainly limits the life span of anyone bound to it, I don't think the number of oaths or the number of times you swear upon it is a factor. I am fairly sure that when we get some musings rfom Semirhage she mentions the shortening of life as a side effect of being bound. This is something that I believe even the BA are unaware of.
So why the ageless look, side effect or a deliberate working of the rod. I think it was deliberatly made that way. If you think about it, it makes sense the rod was used to bind and punish criminals, but it could also be used to remove that binding. As the oaths cannot be detected in any way that we have been informed of it stands to reason that the ageless look was added so that it could be clearly seen that the criminals were still bound and that people of the AOL had no need to fear them. Also after your time was up or it was decided you had truly reformed having paid your debt to society you would no longer stick out
21
smokinbrigand: 2007-12-05
One of the forsaken (Can't remember her name right now caught in book 11) Talks about being bound by the rode shortining her life and she was not having it (don't know which one)so she ran away maybe grendal. This is proof they use the rods for punishment binding them to do no harm ect... This would prevent bad aes sedi from hurting the non channies.
22
92ysoldier: 2008-02-10
But what if the AS who started taking the oaths knew that it was used for punishment almost like they were taking the oaths as a punishment for the destruction that the male AS caused and they failed to stop. And as all things do the reason they were taking the oaths were lost and now they make up their own reason for taking the oaths. The original oaths could have been a death sentence for anyone who could channel if they committed a crime with it. Like they would have to swear an oath on the rod that they would no longer channel or that they would only channel to heal or they could be put in a city and had to swear that they would not leave or channel. There were many possibilities for punishment and at the same time shortening their lives which may or many not have been an after thought to it. Maybe they had to swear that they would only use their powers to heal which would limit them to using their powers to a single use. Kinda like community service for their crimes.
23
Marie Curie 7: 2008-02-26
smokingbrigand:
"One of the forsaken (Can't remember her name right now caught in book 11) Talks about being bound by the rode shortining her life and she was not having it (don't know which one)so she ran away maybe grendal. This is proof they use the rods for punishment binding them to do no harm ect... This would prevent bad aes sedi from hurting the non channies."
That was Semirhage. . .
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TITLE - The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time, CHAPTER: 6 - The Female Forsaken and the Darkfriends
It was sometime after the drilling of the Bore that Nemene Damendar's secret became known, though her predilections certainly long predated the Dark One's influence on the world. Confronted by a delegation from the Hall, she was given a choice: to be bound against violence, never to know her pleasures again, or to be severed from the One Power and cast out in disgrace from the Aes Sedai. To her, there was no choice. She became one of the first to make the journey to Shayol Ghul, one of the first to dedicate her soul to the Great Lord of the Dark.
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TITLE - Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow
The spread-eagled patient shook her head as if she could shake off the pain, then realized she could not and fixed Semirhage with a stare. Semirhage merely watched, and maintained the net. Even in something as hurried as this must be, she could afford a little patience.
How she did hate any who called themselves Aes Sedai. She had been one herself, a true Aes Sedai, not an ignorant fool like the simpleton hanging before her. She had been known, famed, whisked to every corner of the world for her ability to mend any injury, to bring people back from the brink when everyone else said there was nothing more to be done. And a delegation from the Hall of the Servants had offered her a choice that was no choice: to be bound never to know her pleasures again, and with that binding be able to see the end of life approach; or else to be severed, and cast out as Aes Sedai. They had expected her to accept binding; that was the rational, proper thing to do, and they were rational, proper men and women. They never expected her to flee. She had been one of the first to go to Shayol Ghul.
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And we also know that in the Age of Legends, criminals were bound using binders (or oath rods) from Sammael:
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TITLE: Lord of Chaos, CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow
The very dark man and woman had come to the foot of the dais with their peculiar harps. Sammael supposed the chimes added something to their playing; what, he could not say. They beamed reverently up at Graendal when they saw her watching. Despite her own advice to listen, Graendal went on talking. "A peculiar place they come from. Women who can channel are required to marry the sons of women who can channel, and everyone of those bloodlines is marked with tattoos on their faces at birth. No one with the markings is allowed to marry anyone without; any child of such a union is killed. Tattooed males are killed in their twenty-first year in any case, and cloistered before, ignorant even of how to read."
So she had come back to it after all. She truly must think he was simple. He decided to plant a small barb of his own. "Do they bind themselves like criminals?"
A look of puzzlement flashed across her face and was hastily suppressed. Plainly she had not reasoned it out; there was no reason she should. Few people in their time had ever committed one violent crime, let alone more. Before the Bore, at least. She did not admit her ignorance, of course. There were times when it was best to hide lack of knowledge, but Graendal often carried the practice to a fault. That was why he had mentioned it; he knew it would dig at her, and serve her right for the useless shreds she doled out.
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