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Thinness in the Pattern

by Flinn Sedai: 2004-03-28 | Not yet rated

Previous Categories: The Nature of the Bore

In the BWB, we are told that AS of the AoL found a "Thinness in the pattern" at Shayol Ghul.

Now, if the Pattern is woven of the threads of lives, then how can there even be a thinness? And even if there is a thinness, wouldn't that exist in a possible world, or at a particular point in time, not a specific place in Randland? More importantly, how can the AS "see" this thinness? Is this some kind of Talent that some had, to be able to "see" the Pattern, the "Great Plan"?

Even then, how would you go about "drilling" into the Pattern?Wouldn't the only way to create a bore be to get a bunch of people in one place and BF them back a year or so?

My theory is that there was some sort of Talent. Something like Min's ability to read the Pattern, except on a more grand scale. I think that the Pattern actually overlays Randland. The specific point in time where Shayol Ghul is, is the time of TG. A thin point at which the DO will have a chance to make that not just a thinness, but a gaping hole with which he can escape the Pattern from. The couple hundred threads that tie TG together over Shayol Ghul are all connected to Rand, Mat, and Perrin. Certain threads must be there. All that has to happen for them to win is merely to exist at that point in time so that there is no hole in the Pattern.
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Tamyrlin: 2004-04-24

I don't think we have discussed the actual creation of the Bore enough, so let's get to it. I don't have anything grand to add or subtract from the ideas proposed by Flinn. However, I will say a few things. There was a mix of science, technology, and the one power that had never existed before (unless in a previous turning). The Collam Dam (sp?) was in some manner suspended in the air, IIRC. There were wonders, amazing wonders. So, I don't think it necessarily was one talent, but you may have something as you discuss the warp and the woof. Could the DO's pattern exist in a location that has the highest probability of non-existence? The thinnest fabric of reality? And, through all of the studies into Portal Stones, Mirror Worlds, and the like, have led some scientists down the road to finding the world of least reality, and could that have led them to a place in the pattern that couldn't be traveled to by any means. And, in an attempt to unlock the secret, they developed a tool, power by channelers, that could burrow through the Pattern...and that is how the DO was found? Fun thoughts.


udernation: 2004-04-24

This has a link to the 'schrodingers cat' idea being discussed at the moment. This is the idea that the mirror patterns reduce in reality until the point that the DO is released, wherein it ceases to have any possibility of existing.

If, via female travelling (or some variant), you could make the 'least real' world and the real world so identical that they co-existed, but only at that single point in the pattern. That would explain Shayol Ghul. Remember, males call travelling a Bore, but females call it 'making identical'.

So, it wouldn't be necessary for Min-people to be there at all, just that enough power was used to make an entire area travel between worlds, to a world that almost cannot occur. Then, at this point in the pattern, the chance of the DO breaking open is so high it is GOING to happen, and create a unique (in that age) possibility of him escaping. I think that made sense.

Basically, all that meant that perhaps it was a man-made thinness. It may have required a certain time-related area - perhaps finding the mirror world where it was most likely the DO would escape NOW, rather than later.

I doubt if merely the ta'veren's existence would destroy the bore. It must be healed. If what you're saying is correct, then the likelyhood is that it is merely the point where it is possible to be undone, in the same way as it was done.


Elder Haman: 2004-04-24

I don't think Rand and Mat, and Perrin "just exist[ing]" will win TG since if that was the case the Dark One would be trying to kill Rand instead of turning him.

Possibly the "thinness" exist as a particular point in time- and since if the Dark One is free in one time period he is free in all, drilling through this "thinness" at one point in time would allow him to access all points in Time, (since the Dark One is outside time- see my Theory: The Creator, Dark One and Time), and would also allow people at all points in time to access the "True Power" (which was the point in making the hole).

As to how it was made- you might be on to something undernation- if Lanfear made two points in the Pattern similar, causing the point she was at to become similar to the point of thinness, the B-what's his name (her fellow researcher) could "bore a hole" through the thinness to reach the Dark One. Might explain why Lanfear was able to survive.


Flinn Sedai: 2004-04-24

Since i wrote this theory about a month ago, i have written a more in depth piece on it since this hadnt been posted. I included a lot more references to the book and fleshed this out a little bit. Hopefully that will get posted. :)


Callandor: 2004-04-24

**Now, if the Pattern is woven of the threads of lives, then how can there even be a thinness...Is this some kind of Talent that some had, to be able to "see" the Pattern, the "Great Plan"?**

The Thinness is present in every part of the world; it is only felt at Shayol Ghul.

**TITLE: A Crown of Swords

CHAPTER 25: Mindtrap

The ledge on which she lay projected above a black-mottled red lake of molten rock where flames the size of men danced and died and reappeared. Overhead, the cavern rose roofless through the mountain to a sky where wild clouds raced, striated red and yellow and black, as if on the winds of time themselves. It was not the dark-clouded sky seen outside on Shayol Ghul. None of that earned a second glance, and not just because she had seen it many times. The Bore into the Great Lord's place of imprisonment was no closer here then anywhere else in the world, but here she could feel it, here she could bathe in the radiant glory of the Great Lord. The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. Not that she had any desire to pay the price elsewhere either.


Ignoring her, Shaidar Haran scraped the fluids from the knife onto the cour'souvra. The crystal turned a mliky pink, the first setting. With a flick of its wrist, it tossed the mindtrap out over the lake of molten stone for the second. The gold-and-crystal cage arched through the air and suddenly stopped, floating at the very spot where it seemed the Bore was, the place where the Pattern lay thinnest of all.**


RaelunSedai: 2004-04-24

I think this has something to do with Moridin, or whoever it was that 'stepped outside the pattern' in CoS after spying on Sammael and Graendal. Can it have something to do with the True Power?


snakes-n-foxes: 2004-04-25

What I've always wondered about this it seemed obvious to me that the Dark One had already been in contact with Lanfear - otherwise how would she know about the true power (some quote along the lines of 'from today, the world would be able to share the same type of power')

Perhaps this is something like a onepower shield ? Where there is a weakness in it.

After all, the true source is the driving power of creation...perhaps then, a prison of the darkone works somewhat similar ?

In relation to the Pattern...the pattern is no doubt a symbolic/picture representation of what it really is...and like many word pictures, it probably isn't completely accurate (I know that's not helpful). anyone familiar with a knot in a tree ?


Darren: 2004-04-25

The Bore can't be temporal. It's just impossible in RJology. If the Bore was a point in time, than you would have to travel back in time to either sense the Bore or free the dark one. And by the way, it does not say in the books that if the DO is freed in one "point in time" he will be freed in all. It says freed in one WORLD. Big difference. Don't misquote the texts please.

Also remember that the DO is imprisoned outside of the Pattern. Travelling is not how they freed him. I pointed out the link between males travelling and "boring a hole in the pattern" to point out the ridiculousness of the argument, and am embarassed to see it now used as nonsense evidence.

By definition, the Bore has to be outside of both time and the pattern. The "thinness" that is sensed at Shayol Ghul (and we should guard ourselves at taking this too literally) would have less to do with a hole than with a less substantial presence, as if Shayol Ghul is a place struggling to be beyond the pattern, sealing the link between the prison and the world.


Darren: 2004-04-26

Well, the first thing you're doing wrong is looking at the BWB for information. Might as well put your head between your legs as trust that failed editor.

But anyhow... The phrase "thinness of the pattern" is from Lanfear talking to Rand. She says that you can sense a "thinness of the Pattern there." What'sername went on to extrapolate absurdly that this thinness was always there.

This is patently absurd. It implies that the Creator built an imperfect prison in the first place, and I stand with Herid Fel on this issue. He did not.

There is a thinness at Shayol Ghul because SG was the sight of the original bore, and the bore has been imperfectly sealed ever since. (Open up the Eye Of the World again. Read the prologue. Yeah, that's Ishamael, in the flesh, completely out of his prison AFTER the seven seals were placed on the Bore. And he channels the True Power, which means there is still even then enough of a hole for a direct link to the DO. Of course, this ties to one of the many errors in the books, but that's another issue...)

It was not there before, and will not be there after the Prison is rebuilt. The Dark One is Paradox, remember. The Pattern feels thinner not because there is a hole in it, but because it is not as present, as Siuan is in T'A'R when she wears the lame ter'angreal...

as to the Bore, yeah, there is a Talent specificically related to it, or rather a branch of learning, and he has already shown that Moridin/Ishamael/Beidomon is a past and present master of it, with his vacuoles and mirror worlds.

And no, Mat and the others won't win Tarmon Gai'don by simply showing up.


Cor Shan: 2004-04-26

How the Pattern Is woven:


1)There is a 'wool' (thickness wise) mesh that is the world

2) silk embroidery that are lives

So thus they notice that the 'wool' has shrunk in one area, like if it got wet (I like metaphors) this would creat a thinness. Then use a combination weave that is like balefire to made it into a hollow. Thus the sealing was like putting some cotton wadding into the hole, imperfectly plugging it. Also this accounts for The DOs ability to twist reality near SG


Brendan Reborn: 2004-04-28

Isn't the pattern woven with the threads of lives, therefore making it thinnest at shayol ghul because, there is not enough DF to compensate for the amount of "lightfriends" elsewhere?

And another thing. Do trollocs and myydraal have threads? Are they represented as black threads in the pattern?


Anubis: 2004-05-04

do myrdraal have souls? they dont dream and dreaming is typicly a soul related thing. also are there femail myrdraal? are myrdraal genderless? (stupid question.... shaidar haran raped mogheiden.. obviously theres somthing there) could a myrdraal channel? what about trollocs?


Jaidh: 2004-05-05

I think some one suggested time travel in this post. It has been proven (in real life) that you can only travel back in time to the point in which you created that "bore" or ripe in the space-time continume(sp?). As for the "thinness" it is very possible for that to happend just as it is possible for the pattern to bend, as we have seen before. I really like the Talent of seeing the pattern, although I don't have any more to expand on that theory. For Shayol Ghul, Brendan Reborn brings up a great point. How can the patter be represented of peoples lives when trollics, fades, and other minions of the DO live there which "should" have their own threads in the pattern.


Callandor: 2004-05-08

**do myrdraal have souls? they dont dream and dreaming is typicly a soul related thing. also are there femail myrdraal? are myrdraal genderless? (stupid question.... shaidar haran raped mogheiden.. obviously theres somthing there) could a myrdraal channel? what about trollocs?**

Yes, Myrddraal and Trollocs have souls.

No confirmed idea on female Myrddraal, odds are they are all male.

They aren't genderless, they are sterile males.

There is an interesting theory, that Myrddraal are the genetic "would've been" of a channel, hence why they are "throwbacks". What this means is, that if two Trollocs were to mate, and the genes that would've been in a human to make a channeler were used, then the Myrddraal would be born.

This explains how they can "sense" the Power (the Fade in TDR when Nynaeve, Egwene, and Elayne are captured), but not actively channel it.

Trollocs are just big, dumb, scary grunts.


charliec: 2004-05-09

Lanfear tells Rand that he could have ripped out some Trolloc and Fade souls in the Stone, instead of bothering to fight them.

There must be Trolloc (and possibly Fade) females, but either there's so little gender difference that few notice, or they stay home in the blight... some kind of Trolloc settlement, weird...


Jaidh: 2004-05-09

True dreaming is a dead give away that the dreamer has a soul, but this does not mean that myrdraal and trollocs don't have souls. Although I can't back this up further my personal theory is that they may have a soul.


Davian93: 2004-05-09

****do myrdraal have souls? they dont dream and dreaming is typicly a soul related thing. also are there femail myrdraal? are myrdraal genderless? (stupid question.... shaidar haran raped mogheiden.. obviously theres somthing there) could a myrdraal channel? what about trollocs? ****

I would think that they have souls but I dont know either way. As for gender all Myrdraal are male and all of them are sterile. They do have "equipment" down there and they are known for their proclivities with the lady folk. As for channeling, Myrdraal are a corruption of the human stock used to make trollocs so it might be possible. SH can channel TP, so the mechanism is there.


Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-09

Anubis, myydraal are all male. In the BWB (although not very accurate, it maintains some correct material) tells of it. But I get your point. But trollocs were a cross between animals and humans, humans have souls? Mean anything? Just speculating


Brendan Reborn: 2004-05-11

The BWB (however reliable) says that myydraal are only males. Just to clear things up a bit.


Anubis: 2004-05-11

i know there are female trollocs. rj has said so. but im more interested in the myrdraal. and besides trollocs dont seem like the birth giving and nuturing types. how are myrdraal "raised"? what do they eat? when they arent eating people. (and dont say eachother, that only works for so long) are they omnivores? or just carnies.


Anubis: 2004-05-11

the pattern = reality. stop trying to think of it as a sheet of cloth. it isnt. there is a thinness in reality. things that are impossible can happen.


a dragonburned fool: 2004-05-14

Pattern is not just some mass of existence present, but also the way the threads flow, and, most important, the way the threads interact with each other. Dynamical distribution of threads.

IMO the thinness in the Pattern is rather some looser dynamical distribution of threads, and not just less threads. That is place, where the balance of the world went not so good. Something similar creates also balefire, but balefire also removes threads, while DO maybe wants the same number of threads but in looser interconnection. When DO corrupts people in the first years of the Bore, and when he wants chaos now, he maybe wants increase of the same kins of loosing of the Pattern.

As about the Talent, I don't think it is required. We have example of a normal weave that works directly with the Pattern: it's Travelling. By Travelling men even fold the Pattern, make some distribution-change of that. So direct manipulations on Pattern are possible without any special Talent.


mako0424: 2004-05-15

i have little to say that hasn't been said by some crack hair-brained theory, but i would like to point out that Lanfear drilled the Bore as a scientist, and Lanfear also incidentally considers herself ruler of Tel'Aran'Rhiod. Maybe the Bore the drilling was done in the dreaming world, it makes a ton of sense, considering things work differently there, where you think you can feel the thinness at Shayul Ghul, if you went in the world of Dreams i bet you could see the Borem, and thats also where i think alot of Tarmon Gaidon will be fought, mainly by the important, Dream travelling characters, but alot of forsaken and what not will be their, i think Lanfear was trying to find a way to access True Power though World of Dreams somehow, and drilled the Bore,.


Flinn Sedai: 2004-05-15

The Talent i was refering to, was to be able to see it, not a Talent letting you interact with it. We well know that you can interact with something without seeing it.


Anubis: 2004-05-15

take a snapshot of the world. everything. plants trees (insert yoda rant) and people. this is a crossection of the pattern. it would have 0 length but thats more of a debate for physicists. add time. the pattern gains "length". then you begin to see a picture. sort of like a tapastry only not really. but it works. just remember its an analogy.


Anubis: 2004-05-17

perhaps perrin will fight darkhounds in the dream... wait... do darkhounds appear like animals in the dream? cus thats starting to make unhealthy ammounts of sense. aside from the lameness that is perrin sleeping through the last battle. maybe that will be in the next book and not the last battle... if indeed shadowhounds apper like animals in TAR