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he Location of Shayol Ghul before the Bore

by Rodel Ituralde: 2006-02-12 | 1.89 out of 10 (9 votes)

Previous Categories: The Nature of the Bore

Well... This is my first theory so I will try my best. I think that Shayol Ghul was V'saine, the home of the Colaam Daan, before the Bore.

Reason: Meirin and Beidomon first discovered the thinness in/near the Sharom in the Colaam Daan. Shayol Ghul is quoted consistently by the forsaken to be the "only place the bore can be sensed". If these two places were different than it would stand in reason that the forsaken would say "one of the two places". This is one reason why I think Shayol Ghul was V'saine. It also seems to me like RJ's style of writing.

Argument 1: This theory is completly dependent on the BWB.

Well, yes it is. But while I belive that most was written by the other author, I don't think RJ would let it be puplished without checking it over. I realize that this is a weak part of my theory.

Argument 2: Why isnt this mentioned in the BWB if it is true? Wouldn't RJ address the subject?

Again, I think that most of the BWB was written by the other author. While I think RJ would have combed the book for errors, I don't think he would have added anything to it enless it was vital to the book. RJ has also shown liking to not completly close arguments.

Argument 3: Couldn't Shayol Ghul have moved to the Colaam Daan's prevease position during the Breaking?

This could be possible but Shayol Ghul's "thin spot" existed in the AOL. This is why the 100 Companions went to Shayol Ghul instead of some other random spot.

Argument 4: Wouldn't Shayol Ghul have moved away during the Breaking?

Again, Shayol Ghul had a thin spot in the pattern before and after the Breaking. What are the chances that it left one spot and moved to another? Not likely. I think the thinness is conected to the location and moves with it.

Argument 5: What if V'saine is now under the sea?

This is the really weak part of my theory. However it seems like an un RJ thing to do. Also, why would the 100 Companions go to Shayol Ghul instead of V'saine. Any place is better than the DO's stronghold.

Anyways, away. I'd like to know what you all think.
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Tamyrlin: 2006-03-20

(Frenzy for Tamyrlin)
The BWB being your only source isn't a problem. But just so you know, there are two similar quotes in the main books that can either support or undermine your theory, depending on how you interpret them.
LoC Prologue (Demandred's pov)
Here he could sense the Bore, the hole drilled through so long ago to where the Great Lord had lain imprisoned since the moment of Creation. Here the Great Lord's presence washed over him. Physically, this place was no closer to the Bore than any other in the world, but here there was a thinness in the Pattern that allowed it to be sensed.

CoS Chapter 25 (Moghedien's pov)
The Bore into the Great Lord's place of imprisonment was no closer here than anywhere else in the world, but here she could feel it, here she could bathe in the radiant glory of the Great Lord. The True Power washed around her, so strong here that attempting to channel it would fry her to a cinder. Not that she had any desire to pay the price elsewhere either.

The Bore itself is no closer to any single place in the world, so theoretically it could have been drilled from any place in the world. Logistically speaking, it was probably easiest to do the work from the Colaam Daan in V'Saine. Which would explain the extensive damage done to the place. But that doesn't mean that V'saine was where the actual thinness in the Pattern was. That's at Shayol Ghul, a spot that the BWB describes as a former "idyllic island in a cool sea." Would one of the world's largest cities be on an "idyllic island"? That's the question, now isn't it.


Traveller: 2006-03-21

I think I agree with you. At first, when i read it, I thought that the Colaam Daan was just where the research was based, but then I remembered Rand's ancestors' memories in Rhuidean when Colaam Daan exploded, and i guess this wouldn't happen unless what you are saying is right.

So, yeah I do agree.


JakOShadows: 2006-03-21

I do believe your idea is possible, but the wording makes it sound like the bore is somewhere else. And since Shayul Ghul was previously and island used as a tropical resort, I don't think its likely they'd build a busy research center there. If you remember when Rand is going through the ter'angreal in Rhuidean, we see a a little bit of the day when the bore was drilled at the research center, and it is portrayed as a tropical resort. So while it is possible, the wording makes me think otherwise.


Lightbringer: 2006-03-22

I have to agree with Tamyrlin on this one. Shayol Ghul was an island in a sea. During the Breaking, many places were destroyed, oceans where there was once land, and land raised from the bottom of the oceans. even the Ogier have said that the Stedding were no longer in the same places after the Breaking; that is how the Longing came into existance.

As for the Bore, i think that this is more of a metaphysical idea than something real and tangible. Remember, where the Bore was made was in a place where the Pattern "thinned." Mierin (Lanfear) and Beidomon only happened across it and detected a power source there. It was the backlash from the Bore that destroyed the Sharom floting above the Collam'Dan in V'Saine.

As I said before, during the Breaking, many places changed, and were either obliterated, or moved or were never harmed. Places V'Saine dissapeared, Shorelle, the birthplace of Asmodean, was a port city which ended up in the mountain Jangai Passes. It could be that during the Breaking, Shayol Ghul happened to be moved to where the Bore could be felt more strongly. It was probably mostly cioncidence that this island was what became the heart of the Dark One's influence in the world.


Ozymandias: 2006-03-27

Firstly, research on the Bore was done at the Collam Daan because thats where ALL important or cutting edge research was done. The BWB often states that being in the Collam Daan was incredibly prestigious, therefore we can infer that the research done there was of the highest quality. So the fact that the research was conducted there says nothing for the location of the Bore, because any important research was done at the Collam Daan, and besides, the Bore is equally present everywhere in the world, its just easier to sense in some places. It might have been first sensed at Shayol Ghul while Mieren was suntanning on the beach with Lews Therin, and then she came back to the Collam Daan wanting to research it.

Also, the port city we see in Jangai is NOT necessarily Shorelle. Asmodean sees that it is a port and says it MIGHT have been Shorelle, emphasizing how little anyone can possibly know of what happened to places during the breaking


Hama Ndore: 2006-03-31

LOC prologue-pg.1 "In what was now called the Age of Legends, this had been an idyllic island in a cool sea, a favorite of those who enjoyed the rustic." I simply have a hard time believing that the top research center of the age of legends would be located in a remote "rustic" location like that. Also, the discription of the city in TSR during Rand's trip to Rhuidean doesn't sound very "rustic" either.


Jiana: 2006-04-10

Hmm. It has been a while since I've posted. I've missed you all. :)

Anyway, I've got no ideas about this, but it did bring back into light an earlier question I had, regarding portal stones. If those existed before the Breaking, and (Lanfear says, and I believe she told the truth here) not much was known about them even then, then obviously some are buried under mountains and some are resting at the bottom of the sea. Conceivably. However, the portal stones "resist" being moved. So would the Breaking have moved them? In other words, if a mountain erupted from the ground in the area where there was a portal stone, would the protal stone be swallowed by the mountain or would the mountain lift it up? Don't know why I went off on that tangent, it's really irrelevant to my question. :) I guess it's called lack of sleep.

Anyway, since all of those other worlds have differences, it seems to me that the Breaking could have had different affects in different worlds, i.e., one world has a mountain where the other has a large lake, etc etc. So... would it be possible (or even probable) for one to use a portal stone in one world, whose counterpart in the other world is on the ocean floor? or buried under a mountain? It seems to me that it is possible, and that said user would be... well... no more. Any thoughts on this?


New Forsaken: 2006-06-19

Doesn't the Portal Stone in the Waste on the side of the mountain answer this question. It seems like it was pushed up. Thats of course presumming that those mountains were made during the breaaking.


Ieyasu: 2006-06-20

IIRC verin said to rand that portal stones RESISTED being moved.

to me that has always meant that they COULD be moved, but it required signifigant effort.

as to shayol ghul, i have always thought the research and boreing was initiated and done in the colaam daan, but that the target of the bore (what was actually bored) was the pattern itself, not a physical location. it was in shayol ghul (idyllic island) that the bore was able to be sensed. i always viewed it sorta as a missle fired from one location (colaam daan) at a another location (pattern), or a weave that started in one place and ended in another.

i do not believe they were in the same spot.

as for your thought about the thinness being connected to location and moving with it, i doubt that would happen. i think if the land changed, heaved, moved, the thinness would stay in the same spot regardless of the changes that occured to the land. in the AOL it was a idyllic island in an ocean, after the breaking, the land changed seas moved etc, and it was still at the same lattitude and longitude as the former island (whether or not the physical dirt of the island was still there or not}

i think the only relationship shayol ghul has to the boring is the ability to sense the thinness and bored hole.


Anubis: 2006-06-23

I would suppose that it would depend how well they resisted. I would imagine that the portal stones would have to be in the same locations on their perspective worlds so moving one would probably feel like moving... well... infinite.


Ieyasu: 2006-06-27

re: Portal Stones

I doubt position has much to do with it, remember the world is completely changed after the breaking, so odds that they are in the same location as they originally were placed is rather long.

i dont think its like moving the infinite at all, they fall over naturally. in tGH we see one in a stedding that the ogier have stood back up, the phrasing on resist is interesting to me:

***The Great Hunt, chap 37 pg 441

"We stood it upright," Alar said, "when we found it many years ago, but we did not move it. It... seemed to... resist being moved."***

seems to me that ogier could have moved it if they had chosen to force the issue

however later we see that mundane methods dont work:

***The Shadow Rising, chap 22 page 250

"All in Tear? Portal Stones are not so common at that."

"Four." Rand said definitely. The bony old librarian had been certian, even digging out a tattered yellowed manuscript telling of efforts to move the "unknown artifacts of an earlier Age" to the Great Holding.Ever attempt had failed, and the Tairens had finally given up. That was confirmation ro Rand; Portal Stones resisted being moved.***

so obviously in tear they actively tried to move the stones thru mundane methods without success

I think they are moveable, but only with great effort, and not with mundane methods, i suppose the power would be necessary.


Monochron: 2006-07-22

While I doubt that the former Shayol Ghul (island) was at the same place as Colaam Daan, I wonder if the Bore could only be felt at that thinness in the pattern but not the source that Meirin found.

What I am saying is that the source that Meirin felt can be sensed anywhere (by someone powerful and well trained) but the bore that they made in it could only be felt near that thinness. This would explain why they were able to break it in Colaam Daan.


This raises that point that one would think that after they made the bore, they should be able to sense it...hhmmm....

(forgive me if I make a mistake about the nature of the thiness here)

I raise the question of whether meirin caused the thiness in some way.

It is my belief that to have caused the bore she must somehow sense it afterwards. (It is possible that they couldn't sense it and only saw its effects, although it is unlikely)

So...Meirin must have been able to sense the bore in Colaam Daan, meaning it is most likey that there was a thiness in the pattern at Colaam Daan. I hesitate to say that there were two thiness's (one at Shayol and the other at Colaam Daan) which later merged during the breaking, but more likely there was no thiness at shayol and one at Colaam Daan, or not one at all and Meirin created it by making the Bore.

As the conversations in this post have shown, the first is unlikely (as is two thiness's merging) so it is my opinion that...

Meirin caused the thiness when she caused the bore. Subsequently the island moved until it was affected by the thiness...saying that the thiness is not tied to a place. That is the only reasonable explation I can reason out.

...aside from a few other opinions in this post.


JakOShadows: 2006-07-24


"Meirin caused the thiness when she caused the bore. Subsequently the island moved until it was affected by the thiness...saying that the thiness is not tied to a place. That is the only reasonable explation I can reason out."

What do you mean by this? It doesn't make much sense at all. Do you mean that since the bore was created at Colaam Daan, the island moved to the thinness? Becuase that doesn't make much sense to me. I think the thinness could have been sensed and bored from anywhere by a strong enough channeler, but to the average channeler it would be difficult to do. This would also allow for the word usage in all the quotes, because in the AoL there were more powerful channelers.


Gandelail: 2007-01-10

It has always been my assumption that:

- Things outside of the pattern are not subject to the same pressures as the pattern. For example, the paths of the Ways did not move when the physical location of a Stedding was shifted.

-The “thinness” in the pattern was due to a force external to the pattern. (The Dark One trying to break his way into the pattern).

-Since the DO was imprisoned by the creator, outside of the pattern, “he” is no closer to or farther from any parts of the pattern.

So, Meirin sensed the thinness in the pattern and either sensed or otherwise identified a unified power that she thought could be reached if a bore were drilled through the pattern to make the power available to the Aes Sedai. When she succeeded, it gave the DO access to the pattern and destroyed the Collam Daan.

I always assumed that Shayol Ghul was kind of like the blight; an entity as well as a location; an expression of the DO’s influence over an area, to set it apart.

My assumptions always led me to believe that V’saine became the place of the shadow’s influence during the war of Power. And that when the breaking ended, the lands stopped shifting, and what was once an idyllic island came to rest “above” the thinness in the pattern.

I always believed the BWB’s description of Shayul Ghul as a once idyllic island in a cool sea, is telling us that before the breaking there was a perfect island somewhere. The breaking changed the surface of the world, and what once was the ocean floor became the blight and the island, the mountain of Shayul Ghul.


Myrelle Sedai: 2007-01-11

Shayol Ghul was an island, not Colaam Daan. And, as for the Portal Stones, during the breaking if a mountain collapsed or something, I think it's highly unlikly that the Portal Stone would just hang in mid-air.


JakOShadows: 2007-01-11


That's an interesting thought, but that brings up another question in my mind. How come we don't see more of the landscape destroyed or turned into the blight? Think about the map, it seems like the blight is based of the DO's influence moving south. And if what your saying is true, the breaking would have put chunks of blighted land throughout the good land as well. Unless all the good land initially surrounding the blighted land also became blighted, then that would be possible. It just seems counter intuitive to how the book implies it happened.


Davian93: 2007-01-11

****Meirin caused the thiness when she caused the bore. Subsequently the island moved until it was affected by the thiness...saying that the thiness is not tied to a place. That is the only reasonable explation I can reason out.****

Mierin did not cause the thinness in the Pattern, she merely too advantage of it. Also, the thinness in the Pattern wasn't at Collam Daam at all, it is located in the Pattern and can only be felt at Shayol Ghul. That is why the Forsaken have to travel to Shayol Ghul to communicate with the DO. Collam Daam was merely a center of research from where Mierin conducted her research.


Anubis: 2007-01-12

**I always believed the BWB’s description of Shayul Ghul as a once idyllic island in a cool sea, is telling us that before the breaking there was a perfect island somewhere.**

Ive always thought it served to illustrate the contrast. Before it was nothing important, in fact a place one might go to relax or vacation. Now it is the complete polar opposite of a vacation spot.