Musings on a shadowy bit

[GonzoTheGreat]

This new naming convention might've come in handy with the previous installment in the series; then I could have had Musings on a dragony bit. On the other hand, I'm kinda happy that I did not have to choose between "eyey bit" and "worldy bit".
TSR, Questioners, Chapter 5

"Stilling is not a thing anyone would choose to study, you understand," Nynaeve continued. "It is generally accepted to be irreversible. What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence." At least, no one had ever been able to Heal stilling. There had been attempts. What Nynaeve said was generally true, yet some sisters of the Brown Ajah would study almost anything if given the chance, and some Yellow sisters, the best Healers, would try to learn to Heal anything. But even a hint of success at Healing a woman who had been stilled was nonexistent.Rand recently lost a hand, didn't he?
TSR, Questioners, Chapter 5

Joiya must have been stiff from standing so still for so long, but she turned smoothly to face them. The sweat beading her forehead could not diminish her dignity and presence, any more than her drab, rough dress lessened the sense of her being there by choice.Why did she sweat? We know that being shielded wouldn't affect her ability to ignore heat (or cold), so this seems rather strange.
TSR, Questioners, Chapter 5

The foolishness of it struck Egwene suddenly. She was the only woman in the room who could channel – unless Nynaeve grew angry, or Joiya's shield failed; she tested the weave of Spirit again without thinking – and she indulged in a staring match while Amico waited to accept her bonds.Why do they trust a tied off shield in the case of Joiya?
We know that it is tradition to always actively shield a captured male channeler, instead of trusting to a tied off shield to hold him. We also know there's good reason for that, some men at least are capable of figuring out how to poke holes in a tied off shield.

One would assume that AS noticed that, and that at the very least the BA had a training program to prepare for the eventuality of being shielded. So I think that Joiya could have escaped, if she had wanted to.

Some other things, based on the same chapter:

I think that the precise wording of the Black Oaths was not worked out. This is because whatever they would be, there would be plenty of room for lawyering around them. They have to incorporate the ordinary Three Oaths, but only when useful to the Shadow. Then they have to have whatever other provisions the Shadow wants to incorporate. So I think we will not hear what they are, since I suspect that RJ deliberately left them vague. Possibly after a failed attempt to write them.

Finally, the plot to spring Taim and set him up as the Evil Dragon Reborn.
I still think that this is why Taim was released, but the rest of the plan was scuttled. Or perhaps merely transferred.
TSR, Questioners, Chapter 5

"Is that what Moiraine told you?" Joiya asked with a touch of contempt. "Moiraine has spent little time in the Tower since she was raised, and not much more with her sisters anywhere. I suppose she knows the workings of village life, perhaps even something of the politics between nations, but she does claim certainty about matters learned only through study and discussion with those who know. Still, she might be correct. Mazrim Taim might well find it impossible to proclaim himself. But if others do it for him, is there a difference that matters?"Now, suppose that it isn't Taim, but Masema who was chosen for this role, wouldn't that fit the evidence very well indeed?
Masema has been giving Dragonsworn, and as a result Rand, a very bad name in a lot of countries.

[Weird Harold]

Why do they trust a tied off shield in the case of Joiya?

At that point in the story, only Moiraine is anything aproaching fully trained involved and she seems to be staying in the background as far as dealing with Amico and Joiya. The Supergirls simply don't know enough about sheilding or breaking shields to be concerned.

I don't think Joiya could break the tied off shield though because also at that point in the story, Egwene, Elayne, and Nyneave are the strongest channelers known -- enough stronger than Joiya that even a tied-off shield would be effecively unbreakable.

I think that the precise wording of the Black Oaths was not worked out. This is because whatever they would be, there would be plenty of room for lawyering around them. They have to incorporate the ordinary Three Oaths, but only when useful to the Shadow. Then they have to have whatever other provisions the Shadow wants to incorporate. So I think we will not hear what they are, since I suspect that RJ deliberately left them vague. Possibly after a failed attempt to write them.

Why do the BA Oaths have to incorporate the Thre Oaths? The "other trinity" exists to free the BA from the strictures of the Three Oaths without sacrificing the "ageless look' that results from being thrice bound.

RJ wasn't explicit about the "Other Trinity" because the purpose of having three BA oaths doesn't depend on what the oaths are, just that there are three of them. They are probably purposeful and oriented to enforcing secrecy, but the exact wordings don't really matter that much.

[Brita]

Why did she sweat? We know that being shielded wouldn't affect her ability to ignore heat (or cold), so this seems rather strange.


Maybe she was sweating from effort (stealthily testing the shield). Or fear, although I doubt this one.

[greatwolf]

Rand recently lost a hand, didn't he?

I'd like that, if indeed it was foreshadowing. Semi might be able to do it, but I don't think Nyn has any hope of getting it right. The reconnection has to perfect to a very, very minute level.

[Weird Harold]

I'd like that, if indeed it was foreshadowing. Semi might be able to do it, but I don't think Nyn has any hope of getting it right. The reconnection has to perfect to a very, very minute level.

reconnection? There's nothing left to reconnect, Rand's hand was destroyed by a fireball. If his hand is to be restored, it's going to have to be a regeneration rather than a 'reconnection.'

A transplant is a remote possibility, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to expect anyone in the WOT to think in that direction.

[GonzoTheGreat]

At that point in the story, only Moiraine is anything aproaching fully trained involved and she seems to be staying in the background as far as dealing with Amico and Joiya. The Supergirls simply don't know enough about sheilding or breaking shields to be concerned.But somehow, if Moiraine knew that Joiya could break that shield whenever she wanted to, I'd have expected her to take that possibility into account somehow.
I don't think Joiya could break the tied off shield though because also at that point in the story, Egwene, Elayne, and Nyneave are the strongest channelers known -- enough stronger than Joiya that even a tied-off shield would be effecively unbreakable.Does that actually work? If so, then a circle of 13 could set and tie off a shield that would hold any man, yet we know that's not the case.
Why do the BA Oaths have to incorporate the Thre Oaths?Because if they don't, then eventually someone would notice the difference, and ask a trick question like: "What is your favorite color?"

[Sarevok]

Because if they don't, then eventually someone would notice the difference, and ask a trick question like: "What is your favorite color?"
Uh... how's that a trick question??

[Weird Harold]

But somehow, if Moiraine knew that Joiya could break that shield whenever she wanted to, I'd have expected her to take that possibility into account somehow.
...
Does that actually work? If so, then a circle of 13 could set and tie off a shield that would hold any man, yet we know that's not the case.

The stronger a channeler is, the harder it is to break their shield -- unless they're particularly un-talented at shielding. I don't think Moriane is particularly knowledgeable about breaking shields and is herself enough stronger than most AS att hat point in the story, that she relies on her strength rather than any particular skill or knowledge.

Also, at this point in the story, the readers know nothing about the vulnerability of tied-off shields and the characters involved have no particular reason to demonstrate such knowledge.

A circle of thirteen could certainly construct a tied-off shield that would require exceptional talent and strength to break. That it would be even harder to break if the circle maintianed the shield instead of knotting it wouldn't make much difference to anyone weaker or less talented than Rand (or possibly Mazrim Taim and Logain.)

Because if they don't, then eventually someone would notice the difference, and ask a trick question like: "What is your favorite color?"

A binding to say nothing that would expose the BA to discovery would prevent such 'trick questions' from being effective. The Thre Oaths are so vulnerable to interpretation and misinformation as to be useless anyway.

The only Oath that is even remotely verifiable is the Oath to "speak no word that is not true" and we know that Oath is explicitly assumed to be missing in the BA as way of detecting them.

Making weapons and using the OP as a weapon aren't things that come up in everyday WT routine, so there's no point in replicating them in the BA Oaths and every reason NOT to include even a hint of them so BA can react with lethal force to protect the BA's secrets.

[WinespringBrother]

Why do they trust a tied off shield in the case of Joiya?

They had to, when Joiya was in the cells, since otherwise Moiraine would have had to shadow her and stay awake non-stop. I don't think Moiraine would have delegated that to Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne or Aviendha at the time. Although Rand could have done the honors as well LOL

I wonder if a blindfold of air would effectively be the same as a shield ...

[OutFoxed]

The stronger a channeler is, the harder it is to break their shield This is quite correct.

Anyone interested in a very good explanation of this phenomenon I refer to the Wotmania.com website. On the left side of the homepage, find the "WoT" pulldown menue, go the the "Theory Post" section, scroll down to the heading "Theories for the Academics", look for the subject "The One Power and *Angreal", then scroll down to and read "The Comprehensive One Power Strength Theory" parts one and two. They are very interesting, and very informative.

For a shortcut, here's a link, scroll down the the articles.
One Power Theory Link (http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdb.asp?Category=Angreal)

[GonzoTheGreat]

Uh... how's that a trick question??Bridgekeeper: Stop! What... is your name?
Galahad: 'Sir Galahad of Camelot'.
Bridgekeeper: What... is your quest?
Galahad: I seek the Grail.
Bridgekeeper: What... is your favourite colour?
Galahad: Blue. No, yel-- auuuuuuuugh! (http://www.armory.com/swallowscenes.html)
A binding to say nothing that would expose the BA to discovery would prevent such 'trick questions' from being effective. The Thre Oaths are so vulnerable to interpretation and misinformation as to be useless anyway.I do agree with the second part. But the first part wouldn't really work, I think, since that requires constant thinking about all the potential consequences of what you're saying. Or, alternatively, it would prevent the BA from doing anything at all that an ordinary AS wouldn't do whenever there might be witnesses, which would rather prevent them from being evil.
They had to, when Joiya was in the cells, since otherwise Moiraine would have had to shadow her and stay awake non-stop.I know that they had to, I just don't think it could have worked. It is a plot hole, I think.
I wonder if a blindfold of air would effectively be the same as a shield ...Only on those that haven't read the Amber series. Otherwise, they would have practiced with channeling while blind.

[Weird Harold]

I do agree with the second part. But the first part wouldn't really work, I think, since that requires constant thinking about all the potential consequences of what you're saying.

And that is different from how the Oath to "speak no word that is untrue" functions exactly how?

The only thing a binding does is move a decision making process into the subconscious/conditioned response level instead of leaving it to conscious, rational choice. The whole point about a binding is that the subject no longer has to think -- except about how to get around the binding.

[GonzoTheGreat]

And that is different from how the Oath to "speak no word that is untrue" functions exactly how?

The only thing a binding does is move a decision making process into the subconscious/conditioned response level instead of leaving it to conscious, rational choice. The whole point about a binding is that the subject no longer has to think -- except about how to get around the binding.Because with the standard Oath, an AS cannot tell lies. However, with the BA version, she can tell lies, as long as doing so serves the purposes of the Shadow. Or if she can get away with them, by killing all innocent witnesses afterwards.

If she had been bound by the original Oath, then Alviarin could not have sent her letter to Rand (in which she promised him a bunch of AS Dragon Sworn). But because the purposes of the Shadow outweighed her "do not tell lies" compulsion, she could get away with it in this case.

[Weird Harold]

Because with the standard Oath, an AS cannot tell lies. However, with the BA version, she can tell lies, as long as doing so serves the purposes of the Shadow. Or if she can get away with them, by killing all innocent witnesses afterwards.

I wasn't talking about the wording of the Oath, but rather the way the Oath functions whatever the specific wording might be.

The Binder/Oath Rod sets a "block" in the subconscious that prevents the victim from doing whatever the wording of the oath prohibits.

An AS can't lie, but a BA can -- but the BA sister mustn't lie where it is obvious or would lead to exposure of the BA. IN the latter case, a binding against doing or saying anything that would expose her or the BA would simply block stupid, obvious lies the same way that the regular Oath blocks wording that isn't precisely true.

For example, asking an AS to tell you the sky is green would trigger the binding against untruths. Asking a BA to tell you the sky is green would triggger a binding against revealing that she can lie -- without inhibiting her ability to lie when it wouldn't lead to exposure.

[GonzoTheGreat]

But it isn't as simple as that, since now and they have to take risks that may expose the BA anyway. In New Spring that happened, Liandrin had to take a similar risk, and Alviarin (and others) are also going beyond a simple "do not expose".

[Weird Harold]

But it isn't as simple as that, since now and they have to take risks that may expose the BA anyway. In New Spring that happened, Liandrin had to take a similar risk, and Alviarin (and others) are also going beyond a simple "do not expose".
Without knowing the precise wording of the BA's Other Trinity we can't say whatwould or wouldn't be allowed by a binding against exposing the BA by careless lying.

The only reason the BA has any bindings at all is because without three bindings, the "ageless look" doesn't happen; all three of the "Other Trinity" could be nonsensical oaths against sneezing in church, standing naked in the rain for fun, or some other pointless and improbable actions simply to get the ageless look that would be the surest sign of not being bound by the Three Oaths.

They probably aren't nonsense and the lack of information gained from captured BA strongly suggests that one is a prohibition against exposing the BA or BA plots -- one that could also prevent exposure from speaking or acting against the Three Oaths restrictions in public. But it all dpeends on the specific wording and the bindee's understanding of the intent.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yep, I agree with all that. My musing here was that actually formulating wording which would do the tricks in three Oaths might not be possible, and that that is a reason why they're never explicitly mentioned.
By not giving the wording of the actual Dark Oaths, RJ can have them do what he wants to achieve with them, without running into the kind of trouble he would get if he tried to make them explicit.

Effectively, it's the Jedi mind trick:
"These are not the Oaths you are searching for."

[Weird Harold]

Yep, I agree with all that. My musing here was that actually formulating wording which would do the tricks in three Oaths might not be possible, and that that is a reason why they're never explicitly mentioned.

I think it easily possible to incorporate forced simulations of the Thre Oaths in the 'Other Trinity.' But it doesn't mean that those who determined the wording of the BA bindings didn't Try to prevent inadvertant disclosures.

I do think that it is odd that the BA bindings do NOT appear to include something putting the BA and/or DO's interests above the petty interests of the BA sisters -- If Ishy was the one to set the need for another Trinity, I"d have expected the first OAth to bind them to the "service of the DO above all others" or some other wording to prevent situations like Liandrin's attempt to Compel Moggy.

However, you're correct that leaving them unstated does give RJ much more leeway in writing the BA characters.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yes, but it is not only that one that has to be simulated. All three must be done flawlessly, or at least, without noticeable flaw. That makes it quite tricky, I suspect,l especially if you want to add other, possibly contradictory, instructions too.
For the complications you can get, read Asimov's robot stories, and then remember that instead of logical robots, you have Liandrin and friends to deal with. Then consider the fact that this supposedly worked well enough for 2,000 years: the time that the BA has been a secret discounted by most AS.

[Weird Harold]

Yes, but it is not only that one that has to be simulated. All three must be done flawlessly, or at least, without noticeable flaw. ...

The Ban on using the OP as a "weapon" is so full of logical holes already that I don't hink anyone would notice if it was completely done away with.

The ban on making "Weapons for one man to kill another" is so seldom a factor in everyday interactions that it would almost require a deliberate exposure for a violationto be discovered.

The onlly Oath that really poses any risk of inadvertantly exposing a BA sister is the First -- and the muggles don't put a lot of stock in that Oath anyway because every AS is so very good about lying with the truth anyway.

[Cary Sedai]

I'm not real sure about what the black oaths could be, or would need to be. Obedience, possibly... surely not one about avoiding exposure. Obviously since Liandrin and the others exposed themselves.

Now, I did just started a re-read, since I'm going to jordancon and I want to have it all fresh in my head. I just finshed TDR, and started TSR. And one of the things that I keep realizing over and over is how much foreshadowing Jordan really incorporated.

I think Nynaeve can learn to heal Rand, or someone will. It's most definitely not a reconnection issue. It would certainly be a regeneration issue. I don't think transplant would figure in at all, but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Nynaeve and what's his name that healed the women in the Aiel camp have preformed regeneration healing. Doesn't Nynaeve say something like, there being a gap between something, and bridging that gap to heal stilling/gentling? To me that indicates something was regenerated.

ETA: Maybe it's even an issue of a prosthetic made of the one power....

[Weird Harold]

I'm not real sure about what the black oaths could be, or would need to be. Obedience, possibly... surely not one about avoiding exposure. Obviously since Liandrin and the others exposed themselves.

Liandrin and the rest of the Keystone Koven didn't expose themselves, they were apparently running from having been exposed -- or acting under orders. They never actually did anything that could be classified "exposing themselves as BA" to anyone who didn't already know they were DFs or at least strongly suspect so.


ETA: Maybe it's even an issue of a prosthetic made of the one power....

I think any OP Prothsthetic will be Rand's work rather than Nyneave's work.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Liandrin and the rest of the Keystone Koven didn't expose themselves, they were apparently running from having been exposed -- or acting under orders. They never actually did anything that could be classified "exposing themselves as BA" to anyone who didn't already know they were DFs or at least strongly suspect so.Murdering other AS in a situation where their culpability would be discovered was sort of "exposing themselves", you know. As was setting the Power Puff Girls up for their meeting with Suroth, and then letting them get away to tell the tale, for that matter.

[Weird Harold]

Murdering other AS in a situation where their culpability would be discovered was sort of "exposing themselves", you know. As was setting the Power Puff Girls up for their meeting with Suroth, and then letting them get away to tell the tale, for that matter.

Murder to escape apprehension is slightly different from murdiering to avoid discovery. The murder happened post-exposure -- or at least after they were ordered to go to Tear with Liandrin who was under suspicion for selling the 'PPG' to Suroth.

No murderer ever believes they'll be caught, so there would be no conflict with a binding against inadvertant exposure unless the planned coverup was so inept that the BA can't even lie to themsleves.

Selling the 'PPG' to Suroth was supposed to be perfectly safe because they'd never see anaother Aes Sedai, let alone the White Tower again -- absolutely no risk of exposing the existance of the BA because "Nothing can go wrong ... go wrong... go wrong ..."

Even after selling the PPG to Suroth, there was still the possibility that Liandrin was an isolated "rogue sister" and no evidence that there was a DF organization within the tower and those AS still in denial about the BA can rationalize that the Keystone Coven was all of the BA and they ran away because they were about to be disposed -- or even that the Keystone Koven was misled by Liandrin, the Rogue Sister, and are innocent dupes instead of DFs.

The ability of some AS to rationalize away all evidence of the BA -- Eliada, for example -- is truly astounding and the number of AS who simply want to dismiss the problem as hysterical paranoia on thepart of those who want to do something about the problem is far from insignificant.

[GonzoTheGreat]

The ability of some AS to rationalize away all evidence of the BA -- Eliada, for example -- is truly astounding and the number of AS who simply want to dismiss the problem as hysterical paranoia on thepart of those who want to do something about the problem is far from insignificant.I think you misunderestimate Elaida:
TDR, The Red Sister, Chapter 17

When Elaida had settled herself to her own satisfaction, she studied them for a time in silence, her face unreadable. At last she said, "Did you know that we have the Black Ajah among us?"At that point, Elaida knew full well that the BA was real. It was only later on that she managed to prove she'd been mistaken. I really wish we had seen how she had managed it, it must have been rather impressive wishful thinking.

[Enigma]

Having an oath for the Black Ajah never to reveal themselves in any way as darkfriends would be a bit counter productive, or so I would have though. The only way to honour that oath would be never to do anything that a dark friend would. That would kind of take away the whole point of the BA.

Nor can the oath be never to tell anyone that you are BA. We know that the BA recruit others and its kind of hard to induct someone into a semi secret orginisation without telling the potential recruit that you are a member.

"Don't reveal current BA plans to anyone not a darkfriend" seems a lot more practical. no 2 could be something about not telling anyone not already a darkfriend or prospective dark friend what you are. No 3 is anyone's guess but I suspect that all three oaths would have to be very carefully worded in order to allow the BA a certain amount of flexibility and their job certainly calls for it.

[Weird Harold]

Having an oath for the Black Ajah never to reveal themselves in any way as darkfriends would be a bit counter productive, or so I would have though. ...

"Don't reveal current BA plans to anyone not a darkfriend" seems a lot more practical. ...

I don't think the binding against exposure of the sister and/or BA is anything like "never in any way" but more of a check on a typical DF's poor impulse control. The "don't reveal BA plans" binding that Joiya was apparently contrained by could be an effect of a general non-exposure clause that requires 'thinking before speaking or acting.'

[GonzoTheGreat]

The "don't reveal BA plans" binding that Joiya was apparently contrained by could be an effect of a general non-exposure clause that requires 'thinking before speaking or acting.'Neither Galina Sedai nor any other BA member of whom we've seen POVs has shown much evidence of such an implementation of the Oath, though.

[greatwolf]

We know BA can lie unlike AS. So whatever oaths they take may be merely an enhancement of the three oaths. If the BA are free to lie, someone ought to have slipped up over the years. If a member was exposed for lying, then the ought may have been changed and we may have a situation where there are different oaths for different members who were recruited at different times.

[Weird Harold]

Neither Galina Sedai nor any other BA member of whom we've seen POVs has shown much evidence of such an implementation of the Oath, though.
Joiya is the only BA we've seen questioned on-screen. Nobody else has been questioned on-screen about BA affairs while still bound -- the first thing the BA hunters do is to renounce the BA Oaths and reinstate the Three Oaths plus the personal fealty "leash."

IIRC, there is a pov from one of the BA Hunters that explains the need to renounce the BA Oaths to get any useful information.

Ispan Shefar was questioned extensively before she and adeleas were murdered, but remarkably little information was revealed as a result of that questioning, not even the names of the rest of her Heart or her "One Other." I don't think Vandene and Adeleas even got as far as the cell stru ture of "Hearts plus one other."

[Enigma]

We know BA can lie unlike AS. So whatever oaths they take may be merely an enhancement of the three oaths. If the BA are free to lie, someone ought to have slipped up over the years. If a member was exposed for lying, then the ought may have been changed and we may have a situation where there are different oaths for different members who were recruited at different times.


If a member is exposed for lying they are in a whole world of trouble as most other sisters would have to know that she was Black Ajah but how often would a lie be necessary and how often would she be caugh out.

By all accounts most AS learn mental gymnastics in who they talk once they take the shawl so as to twist the truth. A BA sister simply has to keep specifics low and be vague in her coversations like a lot of AS and she can get away with a lot.

Telling the truth is also a lot easier that having to make up a lie and unless some one asks a BA sister is she BA or what she was doing last night when the Amyrilin was kiled, sticking to the truth should be easy.

Then even if she does lie will she be caugh out? If she says the White Tower is made of cheese they she is bound to be caught but how often would someon check up on every word she says. Most people would assume that she was unable to lie and take what she said as gosple. Unless a lot is riding on what was said the chances of anyone checking are small. If a lot is riding on the statement the BA member is probably to take great care on what she said in the first place.

[GonzoTheGreat]

"Moiraine Sedai sent me."

That one has sparked quite a lot of discussions, hasn't it?

[greatwolf]

Telling the truth is also a lot easier...

Without the three oaths, most AS wouldn't have developed the half truth thing into such a fine art. Take Gonzo's point about Verin for example. If the BA drop the oath against lying, they would lose the edge that makes AS such good liars : the fact that what they say isn't a lie at all, just not what you think they are saying.

Without that, they would make more slips sooner or later, someone will take notice and ask why. Me, i think it is always possible to take the first oath and add "except in case.." which is the case with the oath on using the OP as a weapon anyway.

BTW any AS damane who cannot use the OP as a weapon isn't BA agreed? :)

[Enigma]

Having the oath against lying probably is a very good incentive to learn to bend the truth but it can be done without out the oath. In our world politicians are not bound by any of the Three Oaths but do any of them regularly give straight answeers? Not in the part of the world I come from.

Likewise I'm a lawyer and after a bit of practice you get used to being careful what you say and how you answeers questions.

If you consider that accepted are suppost to try to behave as if they were already bound by the oaths they probably get practicing manipulating what they say before they get raised so which it certainly helps if you are bound I don't see it being a complete block on any BA.

[GonzoTheGreat]

TSR, What Lies Hidden, Chapter 11

A weathered stone figurine of a woman, seemingly unclothed but wrapped in hair that fell to her ankles, was outwardly no different from the others sharing its case, each not much bigger than her hand. But it gave an impression of soft warmth that she recognized. It was an angreal, she was sure; she wondered why the Tower had not managed to get it away from the Panarch.I can't remember: who ended up with this angreal?
I can't imagine that both Moghedien and the BA left it where it was, but I can't recall it surfacing either.
TSR, What Lies Hidden, Chapter 11

She set out through the empty city, walking fast, sometimes trotting. Winding, stone paved streets slanted up and down, curving every which way, all empty, except for green backed pigeons and pale gray gulls that rose in thunderclaps of wings when she came close. Why birds and not people? Flies buzzed by, and she could see roaches and beetles scurrying along in the shadows. A pack of lean dogs, all different colors, loped across the street far ahead of her. Why dogs?They must have gone completely wild, since domesticated animals (like elephants) don't have reflections in TAR.
TSR, Rumors, Chapter 13

A ram-horned Trolloc peered toward Mat, snout lifted to sniff the air. It snarled at him, then whined and began licking a long gash that had laid open mail and hairy forearm. The others finished cutting the throats of their wounded, and one barked a few harsh, guttural words. Without another glance at Mat, they turned and trotted away, hooves and boots making hollow sounds on the stone floor.
Away from him. Mat shivered. Trollocs to the rescue. What had Rand gotten him into now?Good question, actually. I sort of can understand why the DO wanted to keep Rand alive at that point, but why did the Trollocs that Semirhage sent (LOC, Chapter 6) have specific orders not to kill Mat?
I don't think that a general "do not kill humans" order would have held them without any Myrddraal to curb their excesses. And this Trolloc seemed to identify Mat, and then (regretfully) decide not to kill him too.

[greatwolf]

I can't remember: who ended up with this angreal?
I can't imagine that both Moghedien

Probably Moghedien initially. She had enough knowledge recognize an angreal when she saw one and even if one of the BA got it, she would have gotten it from them.

IIRC, one of the questions she asked Elyane and nyn when they were under her compulsion was of any angreal and terangreal they had. So likely she'd have made sure of the same for the BA.

However, since moghedien's capture, its likely now with Moridin, or one of the other forsaken. Top possibilities would be Lanfear or Mesaana. In fact by now all the forsaken may have one angreal or the other.

I don't think that a general "do not kill humans" order would have held them without any Myrddraal to curb their excesses. And this Trolloc seemed to identify Mat, and then (regretfully) decide not to kill him too

I think the trollocs reluctance had to do more with a reluctance to engage someone who could fight back than anything else. Trollocs are lazy you know.

Likewise I'm a lawyer and after a bit of practice you get used to being careful what you say and how you answeers questions.

Being a lawyer provides the incentive not to lie, but you can still make a slip up and get away with it. The threat of exposure is however too great for the BA to allow that slip especially in the formative years when they may have been far fewer. That one slip could be doom for the whole BA. I'd still favour it as one of the BA oaths.

[GonzoTheGreat]

However, since moghedien's capture, its likely now with Moridin, or one of the other forsaken. Top possibilities would be Lanfear or Mesaana. In fact by now all the forsaken may have one angreal or the other.Wouldn't Elayne or Nynaeve have found it, if Moghedien had had it?
I think the trollocs reluctance had to do more with a reluctance to engage someone who could fight back than anything else. Trollocs are lazy you know.This seems rather doubtful, since those lazy Trollocs had just chopped up a rather energetic Myrddraal, so they were warmed up properly.
Being a lawyer provides the incentive not to lie, but you can still make a slip up and get away with it. The threat of exposure is however too great for the BA to allow that slip especially in the formative years when they may have been far fewer. That one slip could be doom for the whole BA. I'd still favour it as one of the BA oaths.I agree with this one.

[greatwolf]

Wouldn't Elayne or Nynaeve have found it, if Moghedien had had it?

She also had Travelling with her, and they never found even with weeks of captivity.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yeah, but that's not quite as obvious as an angreal. And you know how it is with those* girls: the obvious they see in a couple of days (usually), the not quite as obvious takes longer.

* As some may have noticed, I resisted the temptation to put this word in parentheses.

[Weird Harold]

I can't remember: who ended up with this angreal?
I can't imagine that both Moghedien and the BA left it where it was, but I can't recall it surfacing either.

Did it really exist or was it just a figment of T'A'R? It is never mentioned again as far as I can tell.

I suspect that it was destroyed by the Balefire barrage that destroyed nearly everything in the Panarch's Museum.

[Marie Curie 7]

Then even if she does lie will she be caugh out? If she says the White Tower is made of cheese they she is bound to be caught but how often would someon check up on every word she says. Most people would assume that she was unable to lie and take what she said as gosple. Unless a lot is riding on what was said the chances of anyone checking are small. If a lot is riding on the statement the BA member is probably to take great care on what she said in the first place.

No, that sort of comment would not necessarily lead to an Aes Sedai being caught in a lie, as RJ noted:


RJ's blog 20 January 2006 "IT'S BEEN A WHILE"

- The Oath against lying does leave room for sarcasm. It is intent and result that matter. No sister can intentionally speak an untruth either with the intent of passing on false information or with the belief that false information might be passed on. Thus the careful slicing and dicing of words. But if someone were to hold up a piece of white cloth and ask whether it was black or white, someone who had sworn the Three Oaths would be capable of saying that it was black as a matter of sarcasm. But not if, for example, the person asking the question was blind and thus might well take the statement for truth rather than sarcasm.

[GonzoTheGreat]

As happens frequently when I read Rand's adventures in Rhuidean, I've been wondering what others would see there.
Ordinary people like Perrin, Mat and Moiraine wouldn't be too difficult to predict in this case, of course. But how about Slayer (Luc/Isam), what history would he be presented with?
How about Padan Fain/Ordeith, who is a probably even weirder being?
For that matter, what would happen to a Trolloc or Myrddraal who went into that ter'angreal?
TSR, Assurances, Chapter 31

Dain Bornhald held himself straight in his saddle as the hundred he had taken on patrol approached Watch Hill. Fewer than a hundred, now. Eleven saddles had cloak-wrapped bodies tied across them, and twenty-three more men nursed wounds. The Trollocs had laid a neat ambush; it might have succeeded against soldiers less well trained, less tough than the Children. What troubled him was that this was his third patrol to be attacked in force. Not a chance encounter, not happening on Trollocs killing and burning, but meeting a planned attack. And only patrols he led personally. The Trollocs tried to avoid the others. The fact presented worrisome questions, and the answers he came up with gave no solutions.Who is doing this, and more importantly: how does he get his information?
The obvious suspect is Fain, but it isn't him, as we find out only a little bit later:
TSR, Assurances, Chapter 31

The man who called himself Ordeith, even sometimes thought of himself as Ordeith, slunk through the tents of the Children of the Light, watching the white-cloaked men with a wary eye. Useful tools, ignorant tools, but not to be trusted. Especially not Bornhald; that one might have to be disposed of, if he became too troublesome. Byar would be much more easily handled. But not yet. There were other matters more important.So if it isn't Fain, then Isam is just about the only remaining option with handy Trolloc troops in the vicinity. But how does he get the information? To put it another way: who is the DF WC in Bornhald's immediate vicinity?
There are some that could be suspects, but I don't have clear ideas to say which is more likely than any other. Yet this may become important in the next book, when Perrin meets them again.
TSR, Assurances, Chapter 31

Twitching aside his tent flap, Ordeith went in to examine his prisoner, stretched out between two pegs thick enough to hold a wagon team. Good steel chain quivered as he checked it, but he had calculated how much was needed, then doubled it. As well he had. One loop less, and those stout steel links would have broken.
With a sigh, he seated himself on the edge of his bed. The lamps were already lit, more than a dozen, leaving no shadow anywhere. The tent was as bright inside as noonday. "Have you thought over my proposal? Accept, and you walk free. Refuse... I know how to hurt your sort. I can make you scream through endless dying. Forever dying, forever screaming."
The chains hummed at a jerk; the stakes driven deep into the ground creaked. "Very well." The Myrddraal's voice was dried snakeskin crumbling. "I accept. Release me."
Ordeith smiled. It thought him a fool. It would learn. They all would. "First, the matter of... shall we say, agreements and accord?" As he talked, the Myrddraal began to sweat.I can't remember what Fain did with this particular Myrddraal at all.

[Terez]

As happens frequently when I read Rand's adventures in Rhuidean, I've been wondering what others would see there.
Ordinary people like Perrin, Mat and Moiraine wouldn't be too difficult to predict in this case, of course. But how about Slayer (Luc/Isam), what history would he be presented with?
How about Padan Fain/Ordeith, who is a probably even weirder being?
For that matter, what would happen to a Trolloc or Myrddraal who went into that ter'angreal? They wouldn't see anything:


Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q%26A_From_Glimmers_Prologue)



Q: Rhuarc indicates that an Aiel in Rhuidean sees the past through the eyes of one of his ancestors. Is this true for the women as well? What would a non-Aiel see, if anything?



RJ: Yes, a woman would also see through the eyes of her ancestors, at least in the “forest of crystal spires” ter’angreal, and she, too, would live the history of the Aiel, in effect. Someone who wasn’t Aiel could wander through those spires forever and never see a thing except the spires. He or she might think it was a monument, or maybe a work of art. Just for a reminder, women who are chosen out to be Wise Ones have to go to Rhuidean twice, the second time for the spires and the first for another ter’angreal, one that makes her see all of the possible paths her life could take all the way to their conclusion. She can’t possibly remember all of them, of course, but some things she will remember and know that it would be very bad for her to make that particular choice when it comes, or alternatively, very good. This is the ter’angreal that Moiraine went through. That one was easy.

I can't remember what Fain did with this particular Myrddraal at all. He still had it in Lord of Chaos, but I imagine it eventually had something to do with Fain's attack on Rand at Algarin's manor. :D

[Tree Brother]

So if it isn't Fain, then Isam is just about the only remaining option with handy Trolloc troops in the vicinity.

During the attack, the Trolloc's use "Isam" as a battle cry. And Fain does wonder at one point why Isam stopped bringing Trolloc's to the two rivers. I always assumed Fain was responsible for the attacks on Bornhald, but if not him, it would probably be Isam.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yes, Fain did seem a rather obvious suspect, but he has the fairly good alibi of not being guilty, as I just noticed. Isam stopped bringing Trollocs because the Waygate is closed, which closes off their route into the TR.

If it was Isam who organised the ambushes, then the question is: how did he manage to do that each and every time Bornhald was personally leading a patrol?

[Weird Harold]

If it was Isam who organised the ambushes, then the question is: how did he manage to do that each and every time Bornhald was personally leading a patrol?

I'd have to dig back through all of the references, but isn't it possible that the attacks weren't directed at Bornhold, but at "Ordieth," who was almost always at his side at the point in the story? Slayer did have a contract for Padan Fain's head at the same time as Isam was apparently providing him with Trollocs to ravage the TR -- which raises some questions about the internal interaction between Luc/Isam/"Slayer"

[Belazamon]

If it was Isam who organised the ambushes, then the question is: how did he manage to do that each and every time Bornhald was personally leading a patrol?

Pardon my rusty memory, but wasn't that actually Fain's group of Trollocs, trying to kill Bornhald without making it look too obvious?

[GonzoTheGreat]

I'd have to dig back through all of the references, but isn't it possible that the attacks weren't directed at Bornhold, but at "Ordieth," who was almost always at his side at the point in the story?I don't think there is all that much evidence that Ordeith was so often at Bornhald's side. Specifically: this was triggered by Bornhald returning from yet another patrol on which he got personally targetted, and Ordeith was not at his side at the time. Instead, Fain had been busy butchering the Children that had been sent to spy on him on.
Pardon my rusty memory, but wasn't that actually Fain's group of Trollocs, trying to kill Bornhald without making it look too obvious?That's what I had thought too, but then I actually read the book. I quoted a passage where Fain contemplates getting rid of Bornhald, and decides not to because the fellow is still sort of useful. That's right after he has spoken to Bornhald, which is just after Bornhald returned from the patrol where he was attacked.
At that point in the story, Fain had other, more important, targets for his limited resources. Which of course means that it wasn't Fain, but someone else. Which made me wonder: who is the actual culprit?

[Belazamon]

That's what I had thought too, but then I actually read the book.

... I don't understand. Does that actually work?

~winky!~

[GonzoTheGreat]

... I don't understand. Does that actually work?Only for about half the people, I have to admit. The rest keeps on saying things like "LTT is a figment of Rand's imagination" despite all the evidence to the contrary.

[Terez]

Only for about half the people, I have to admit. The rest keeps on saying things like "LTT is a figment of Rand's imagination" despite all the evidence to the contrary. :rolleyes: Last time I checked (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/3045/t/Since-you-guys-love-me-so-much-.html#reply-3045) (the poll disappeared but I reported the results in the last post), well over half of Theorylanders read the books correctly. Granted, most probably didn't the first time or two. It's one of those things that takes a while for most people to understand. But I'm sure you'll catch up eventually. ;)

[GonzoTheGreat]

TSR, The Traps of Rhuidean, Chapter 58

Rand lashed out wildly with the Power. He had to hold it open; once it closed, he would have no idea where Asmodean had fled. The shrinking stopped. A square of harsh sunlight, big enough to step through. He had to hold it open, reach it before Asmodean could go too far...I'd forgotten about this one. So the Far Snows was not the first time he did this. Interesting, though probably not very significant.
TSR, The Traps of Rhuidean, Chapter 58

Grimly he adjusted his clothes, tucking the carved little man and his sword firmly in place, ran to the fog and in. Gray blindness enveloped him. The Power filling him did nothing to make him see better here. Running blind.
Abruptly he threw himself down, rolling the last stride out of the fog onto gritty paving stones. Lying there, he stared up at three bright ribbons, silver-blue in the strange light of Rhuidean, stretching to left and right, floating in the air. When he stood, they were at the level of his waist, chest and neck, and so thin that they vanished edge-on. He could see how they had been made and hung, even if he did not understand it. Hard as steel, sharp enough to make a razor seem a feather. Had he run into those, they would have sliced through him. A tiny surge of the Power, and the silver ribbons fell in dust. Cold anger, outside the Void; inside, cold purpose, and the One Power.Barbed wire made with the OP. That would have been amazingly useful for Perrin, when all those Trollocs were charging. I wonder why it isn't used a lot more.

Now, if Mat had been running in front of Rand, then they could have gone on without slowing down, Asmodean would have been caught earlier, Rhuidean wouldn't be ruined and Lanfear wouldn't have known about the access keys for the Choedan Kal.