Why was Morgase a Novice?

[OutFoxed]

Theory maniacs…we may have a problem…?

I have come across a continuity problem that I cannot reconcile by myself. I’m looking for some help from the other Theory Gods. It’s a two-pronged problem, each one having resolutions I have to make loose presumptions on, but for which I can find no concrete proofs.

Problem #1) Why did Morgase ever go to the WT for training in the first place?

By tradition, the Daughter-Heir of Andor always goes. But, Morgase was not the Daughter-Heir of Andor when she went. She was only the Daughter-Heir of House Trakand. Queen Mordrellen was still on the throne, and Luc was just disappearing into the blasted lands at Gitara Moroso’s behest when Morgase went to TV. It was months later, after Tigraine also disappeared because of Moroso’s “Foretelling”, followed by Mordrellen’s “pining to death” over the loss of her children, that Morgase was recalled from the WT to exercise her claim to the Lion Throne and fight the Succession. It wasn’t even until her mother died of a fever that Morgase becomes High Seat of House Trakand, fighting the Succession, almost alone.

Additionally, in at least one longish passage in tFoH, (excerpts below) Morgase is reminiscing about her past. She admits to all of the above and even adds fuel to the controversy when she says that Verin Sedai had told her that her ability to channel was so miniscule that she hardly need be kept at the WT until she learned to channel safely. In other words, her ability is so pitifully small it can’t be considered a danger even to herself, let alone anyone else.

Taking down a portrait of herself at fourteen, a slender filly of a girl, she had worn that ivory silk dress the day she had gone to the White Tower, never dreaming at the time that she would be Queen…

But short of her sixteenth nameday she had returned to contest the Rose Crown in the name of House Trakand, and when she won the throne nearly two years later, the ring had been presented to her.

Absentmindedly she thumbed the Great Serpent ring on her left hand. She had not earned that, precisely; women who could not channel were not awarded the ring. But short of her sixteenth nameday she had returned to contest the Rose Crown in the name of House Trakand, and when she won the throne nearly two years later, the ring had been presented to her. By tradition, the Daughter-Heir of Andor always trained in the Tower, and was given the ring whether or not she could channel. She had only been heir to House Trakand in the Tower, but they gave it to her once the Rose Crown was on her head. (all from Morgase’s POV, tFoH, Ch 16, Memories, p. 351)

We have one suppositional connecting bit to justify Morgase’s trip to TV: Gitara Moroso. Theoretically… and I strongly stress the suppositional tone in the use of that word here… theoretically Moroso came close enough to a child Morgase to sense her ability to channel and promptly arranged with House Trakand to have Morgase packed up and sent to the Tower… theoretically. But that’s just guess work. There’s no information about it pro, con or otherwise that I can find.

Certainly that theoretical meeting is the best solution. Occam’s razor tells us that the easiest solution is often the best… but I can’t help the feeling that we’re missing something… something big. Such “off screen” activity, especially of such a critical nature, is not the kind of thing Jordan does – at least not without eventually giving us some sort of resolution. But, the final volume to come might not have enough room in it for explanations of such “minor” matters as this, and the author will not be available for Q&A later on. It may seem petty, but it’s an apparent continuity glitch that’s really bothering me. Anyone got any answers besides the above “theory”?

Problem #2) In almost directly opposed contrast with the Morgase problem above, we have the same amount of irresolvable trouble when we ask, “Did Tigraine ever go to the Tower?” She was the Daughter-Heir of Andor and, by tradition, she should have gone whether she could channel or not. But, everything we hear about her talks about how she married Taringail Damodred to cement a cessation of hostilities between Andor and Cairhein, and then bore Taringail at least one child; Galad. At Moroso’s behest she disappears into the Waste to become the Maiden Shaiel, not to be seen again until she dies birthing Rand on Dragonmount. When did she have time to train with Aes Sedai? The only explanation is that she went before she married Taringail, but again – there’s no concrete information.

The WT has some very strict rules about who they will and will not accept for training. Married women are generally not allowed. Married women with children are right out of it. Age has its part to play as well; too young or too old, no training – (Nynaeve is accepted, despite being too old, only because of her potential strength. There are girls in the Two Rivers who have potential, but Verin them leaves behind because they’re too young). Then there’s the question of whether they can even channel; no channeling, no training – with one exception – that’s right, that little Daughter-Heir of Andor thing. We know that, however small her ability, even Morgase went to the Tower for training (however or whyever it was arranged). If Tigraine had any ability at all, even as small as Morgase’s, she should have been shuffled off to TV without question. Being the Daughter-Heir of Andor should have sparked it, like clockwork, channeling or no. Look at the way Elayne was hustled out of the city at the earliest possible date. But, regardless the “should have’s”, did Tigraine go or not?.

Theoretically… *yeah, there it is again* she should have – politically it was required. But, there were other “required” things going on as well – peace treaties, marriage, make a baby, foretelling, et al. Moroso’s convincing her to abandon everything and run to the Waste to become a Maiden of the Spear is hardly the politically correct thing to do. This string of diversionary events cast strong doubt on the presumption that Tigraine did in fact go to the Tower.

Where’s the proof, other than supposition and guess-work? Saying, “ipso facto it must be true” doesn’t put it to rest. Where’s the information we need to say, “Yes, this is how it happened,” without having to rely on another “off screen” plot element that might never get resolved?

Somehow I can’t help think that this dual-problem has a point to it, something that Jordan knew and has managed to keep well hidden all this time. But, in the event that AMoL doesn’t resolve it in print, how do we do it with without theorizing our pants off? Or is it really a continutity glitch, a hiccough showing where RJ was beginning to go one way with the story and ended up going another for whatever reason?

I hate to rattle people’s cages, but I need some serious research help with this; I’m so lost in a sea of cross-referenced nonsense that I may “not be able to see the forest through the trees” if you see what I mean. If you’ve got something I can use, please let me know.

Thanks.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Probably a "just in case" matter. If she hadn't gone, then she would not have been eligible for the throne of Andor, if that happened to become available. So her House had nothing to lose (dumping a teenager on others is not a loss) and a lot to gain from sending her there.

[greatwolf]

First reason I usually think of is that Tigraine couldn't channel but that may be contradictory since Rand can and the trait seems to have been well preserved in the Andorian royal line. But it doesn't answer why Morgase went. Dunno.

[Davian93]

Because lots of young noblewomen go to the Tower to try and learn...remember she was sent home without a ring, then became Queen and then was given a ring as a symbol of the bond between Andor and Camelyn. They kept her a couple months because she could learn (at least a little) and they were thus obligated to train her to safely use even her miniscule power. It also never hurts to indoctrinate the heir to a powerful House in your ideology. Its not really a mystery.

[Weird Harold]

Problem #1) Why did Morgase ever go to the WT for training in the first place?[/SIZE][/FONT]

I've never really been bothered by Morgase's sojourn at the WT, because I figured that like many young women, she went to the WT to be tested and/or for an education -- the latter possibility based on the practices of the convents and monastaries the WT organizatin is based on.

The majority of the WT's "recruiting" prior to the beginning of the series was selecting the best of the young women who made their own way to the WT for testing rather than candidates discovered by traveling sisters.

The fact that Morgase was not immediately rejected for being too weak suggests that the ability to detect a candidate's potentential isn't as absolute as the WT would have everyone believe and later developments -- like Egwene's blasphemous recruiting practices -- have shown that the WT's hidebound requirements aren't terribly realistic.

[Ozymandias]

I caught this a few months/years back and someone on the board (terez, I think) told me RJ had admitted it was a mistake which has supposedly been fixed in reprints.

Of course, as everyone is saying, objectively there is no reason she couldn't have gone to the Tower, as the daughter of an incredibly powerful noble, only that I think one line somewhere claims she was Daughter-Heir at the time.

[Strongman]

I always thought that it probably was the WT attaching strings to whomever might have a shot at the throne (wouldn't put it past them), and I always figured that the WT had a role in her gaining the throne.

[OutFoxed]

Because lots of young noblewomen go to the Tower to try and learn...Can you please give a reasonable reference for that...I can't find it. My impression has always been that the WT has such rigid requirements for recruiting elegibility (causing the "culling" syndrome) that no girl who couldn't channel would go, period, unless she were D-H of Andor. Anyone else on the throne would still get an AS advisor whether they wanted it or not, so there was not need (thus no good justification) for taking any non-channeling Andoran female noble to the WT except the D-H'o'A.remember she was sent home without a ring, then became Queen and then was given a ring as a symbol of the bond between Andor and Camelyn.She left without the ring for two reasons, 1) She hadn't finished her novitiate. Her call home interrupted her training before she made Accepted (which she probably never would). Only women who make Accepted are supposed to get the ring, which brings us to 2) to remind her of her link to them, a reminder that she could channel (however feebly) and thus shared a special link to them (sort of a sorority membership she couldn't ever get out of).They kept her a couple monthsHer training took just short of two years, by everything I've read.because she could learn (at least a little) and they were thus obligated to train her to safely use even her miniscule power.Readdress Verin's comment about Morgase's OP strength being so weak it was no danger.It also never hurts to indoctrinate the heir to a powerful House in your ideology. Its not really a mystery.But this "indoctrination" was beginning prior to Mordrellen's death, while Tigraine was still around. Tigraine had begun kicking out kids for the Mantear bloodline, so there should have been no reason for her to go to TV other than for the fact that she could channel. But, again we go back to Verin's comment about how weak in the OP Morgase is and I have to re-raise the original question: Why did Morgase go?

[OutFoxed]

I caught this a few months/years back and someone on the board (terez, I think) told me RJ had admitted it was a mistake which has supposedly been fixed in reprints.

Of course, as everyone is saying, objectively there is no reason she couldn't have gone to the Tower, as the daughter of an incredibly powerful noble, only that I think one line somewhere claims she was Daughter-Heir at the time.If this is indeed an "error" RJ admitted to I would love to have the reference. Do you know where I can find it? Please?

[Enigma]

I could be mistaken but I though that RJ was asked this once and his reply went something along the lines of Morgase was not daughter heir but she was either head or heir of a very powerful house in Andor. Andor and the Tower were always close and even though her ability barely registered she was allowed to stay for a while because the Tower did not want to anger or humiliate the head of a powerful house in their closest allied nation.

To give a real world comparison suppose the daughter/son of say the British Foreign Secretary wanted to train at some US instituion like Westpoint or Harvard but they really sucked and were not cut out for the place. If they were not going to be in a position to do any harm would he/she be kicked out or would the be let stay for a while to keep their politically imporant parent happy?

[OutFoxed]

I could be mistaken but I though that RJ was asked this once and his reply went something along the lines of Morgase was not daughter heir but she was either head or heir of a very powerful house in Andor. Andor and the Tower were always close and even though her ability barely registered she was allowed to stay for a while because the Tower did not want to anger or humiliate the head of a powerful house in their closest allied nation.

To give a real world comparison suppose the daughter/son of say the British Foreign Secretary wanted to train at some US instituion like Westpoint or Harvard but they really sucked and were not cut out for the place. If they were not going to be in a position to do any harm would he/she be kicked out or would the be let stay for a while to keep their politically imporant parent happy?I suppose that makes a certain sort of sense, but I wish we'd had more in-story explanation of it. It just hangs there like an unresovled sneeze: rather frustrating.

What about the Tigraine part?

[Weird Harold]

I suppose that makes a certain sort of sense, but I wish we'd had more in-story explanation of it. It just hangs there like an unresovled sneeze: rather frustrating.

What about the Tigraine part?
A quick check of the Encycopedia WOT entry for Tigraine show she left at Gitara's urging in 972NE -- further cursory checks show that Mordrellen died shortly after Tigraine disappeared and that Morgase was sixteen when she contended for the throne.

Tigraine was already married and had a son, Galad, who was old enough in 972 to retain some memories of his birth mother after she left -- five to seven years old?

That would put the "traditional tower training" of the andoran daughter-heir at around a decade or so before Morgase was at the Tower in roughly 970NE. Ancient history as far as the series is concerned.

The Daughter-heir of Andor being trained in the tower isn't an indiction that Tigraine could channel, it was training in politics and diplomacy such as r/w medieval convents offered to high-born women of the middle ages.

[Davian93]

I suppose that makes a certain sort of sense, but I wish we'd had more in-story explanation of it. It just hangs there like an unresovled sneeze: rather frustrating.

What about the Tigraine part?

So basically what I said?

[Nazbaque]

I haven't got any evidence on this but I can offer simple reasons for both cases:

1) The DH going to TV is a very old tradition and like all old traditions doesn't really make any sense like Aiel and swords. Only scholars know the reasons behind these things and people keep doing it because it has always been done. So as the DH goes to the Tower because of political tradition why not send the daughter who has the laughably small ability. The Tower accepts because it strengthens the political relations and the ability is there even if it is small. So why Morgases parents sent her there? Their actual motive could be as pointed out before "just in case" or it could be to kiss the queen's rear as well as the Amyrlin's and show what traditionalist the parents were and of course to just give the future Head of their House some political leverage via WT connections.

Okay so it wasn't that simple but I think it's believable.

2) Could someone find out exactly how old Tigraine was when she married? If she was in her twenties the Tower training has plenty of time to happen. The not so politically correct thing has two explanations. a) Gitara Moroso could be such a person you just don't say no to no matter how much backbone one has. b) Tigraine didn't do all those things because they were politically correct but because they were the right thing to do. This would explain why Galad follows that ideology. His mother always did what was right and so he honours her memory by following her example. And when she had to choose between the fate of the World and just the fate of Andor the right thing is quite clear.

Well that one is simple enough. A bit long but simple.

The evidence of course is none existent but I find these reasons believable and until someone prooves them wrong they will do for me.

[The Immortal One]

For Morgase, like Enigma said:
I could be mistaken but I though that RJ was asked this once and his reply went something along the lines of Morgase was not daughter heir but she was either head or heir of a very powerful house in Andor. Andor and the Tower were always close and even though her ability barely registered she was allowed to stay for a while because the Tower did not want to anger or humiliate the head of a powerful house in their closest allied nation.

and also Davian:
They kept her a couple months {or years} because she could learn (at least a little) and they were thus obligated to train her to safely use even her miniscule power. It also never hurts to indoctrinate the heir to a powerful House in your ideology. Its not really a mystery.
The second part especially seems like something Aes Sedai would do, and even more, if the heir of a powerful House became used to instantly and without question following the commands of Aes Sedai (like a Novice would) it may be useful in the future.


As for Tigraine, it seems to me that if she went to Tar Valon at about 15-17 years of age she may have had time for several years in the White Tower before she was married off. I don't recall anybody ever saying just how old Tigraine was when she left to join the Aiel.

In fact, when Amys talks about her she says that Tigraine (or Shaiel) was a 'young woman', but that was when Amys was young enough that she hadn't yet left the Maidens to become a Wise One - so Amys was likely about Aviendha's age at the time. So, uhh... I think that shows that Tigraine may have been more than twenty-something when she got married.

[Enigma]

I believe that its states in a few places that Tigraine marriage was political in nature not a love match. She married a Cairhien prince to keep the peace. If thats the case the fact that she was young would not stop a marriage. She could well have been marched up the isle the moment she returned from Tar Valon.

In fact if she was in the WT as a courtesy with no channeling ability her stay could even have been cut short if her marrying was needed to stop a war.

I know that some have suggested that she must have been able to channel being Rand's mum and all but seriously I doubt if the Tower would have let go of a daughter heir who could actually channel. More likely the full weight of the Tower would have come down on Cairhien to stop any war so that Tigraine would not be needed. Remember how obsessed a lot of AS were about Elayne before world events distracted them.

[Nazbaque]

I always got the impression that they were impressed by Elayne's strength in the Power not her political status. They must have seen possibilities but I doubt they were that exited when all those Tower trained and later Tower advised Queens had made the ties between them and Andor rock solid.

And Tigraine might have been able to channel, but I doubt she was strong or people would have mentioned it. I'd say there is more basis on Janduin being able to channel as he was capable of uniting so many clans (maybe he was just a good speaker but if he had a Talent to make others agree it would fit very nicely) then he went to fight the DO like so many Aiel male channellers had done (maybe he was just heart broken, but the target suggests channeling)

[Ishara]

I agree Enigma, except we need to consider that Gitara may have had a role to play in the release of Tigraine, even if she could channel - even just a little bit. Gitara was the Keeper right, so not exactly powerless, especially if she had her Foretelling at the Tower near the Amyrlin of the time (do we know where she had the Foretlling? I honestly can't recall).

Of course, the immediate flipside to that is that the Aiel would never have allowed her to become a Maiden if she had the ability (as a sparker or a learner) to channel. She would have been bundled up to the Wise Ones just as fast as Amys was.

So, on the balance of probabilities, I'm thinking she couldn't channel - at all. The Wise Ones find the learners too don't they?

Besides which, we have ample genological evidence that Rand has lots of channeling ability in his ancestry from the time in the Rings.

[Bane Darkwulf]

In one of the povs for Morgase, she admits to being able to channel, but too weak to become Accepted.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

It's all explained by one thing. The one common thread to both women: Gitara Moroso. We know she had the Foretelling and was much better at interpreting it than Elaida. And Tar Valon is well known for its puppeteering.


Of course, the immediate flipside to that is that the Aiel would never have allowed her to become a Maiden if she had the ability (as a sparker or a learner) to channel. She would have been bundled up to the Wise Ones just as fast as Amys was.

Nope. That depends on what the Wise Women saw in the rings of Rhuidean. The very act of Foretelling makes certain the path that was foreseen. Or at least, that seems to be a theme that RJ was getting at. Not unlike Dune.

[Ishara]

Gil, I'm not understanding at all. Do you mean that the WOs would have seen Tigraine coming? By their time in the Rings? I don't see how, unless she affected them directly, which she didn't. her role in this whole thing in indirect...

Like, Moiraine saw varients of dealing with Rand through the Rings because her destiny was tied up with him - not everyone would have seen him in their futures, even if he is the DR, because he doesn't have the same role in their lives - direct with Moiraine versus indirect with say, most other people.

Because the way I see it, the WO's don't play fast and loose with the rules, even when destiny is taking a hand. If she could channel, Tigraine would not have been allowed to become a Maiden period.

[greatwolf]

Of course, the immediate flipside to that is that the Aiel would never have allowed her to become a Maiden if she had the ability (as a sparker or a learner) to channel. She would have been bundled up to the Wise Ones just as fast as Amys was.

So, on the balance of probabilities, I'm thinking she couldn't channel - at all. The Wise Ones find the learners too don't they?




I don't think the WOs find learners at all, just sparkers.

And since Tigraine wasn't even aiel to begin with, the rules don't apply to her at all. The WOs don't have rules and would need to decides the merits of her case as they saw fit.

Given aiel culture at the time, if Tigraine said an AS sent me, the aile would probably have fallen over themselves giving it to her.

[Weird Harold]

Besides which, we have ample genological evidence that Rand has lots of channeling ability in his ancestry from the time in the Rings.

:confused: We do?

Which "rings?"

If you're thinking of his trip to Rhuidean, he went into the Crystal Columns ter'angreal where he saw the history of the Aeil through the eyes of his direct ancestors -- none of whom could channel.

There are indications that relatives of his immediate ancestors (i.e. Moiraine) can channel, but I don't recall a single bit of hard evidence that any of his direct (male) ancestors from Charn to Janduin could channel.

[Enigma]

One of the sons/brother of the early Aiel in Rand's vision had to be sent away when he learned to channel and couldnt stop but i can't recally any other channeler.

Given that the channeling gene seems to be recessive it could be lurking in the DNA of a lot of Rand's ancestors without comming out. The Pattern probably made sure that there was potential there without the ability to learn or sparkle until Rand showed up.

[Weird Harold]

...The Pattern probably made sure that there was potential there without the ability to learn or sparkle until Rand showed up.

I think the Pattern went further than that, carefully selecting Rand's direct ancestors to essentially reconstruct LTT's genetic make-up and maximize Rand's abilities -- not just channeling, but reflexes, dexterity, stamina, intellect, etc -- so that he has the very best tools possible to take on the task of winning at T'G.

Rand is the result of a 3,000+ year long breeding program by the Pattern.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Rand is indeed the Kwisatz Haderach, and he is not quite what the Sisterhood expected.

[Ishara]

Sorry WH - I did mean the crystal forest, not the rings. Forgive.

And yes, at least one of the "eyes" he saw through during that trip was related to a channeler, I believe by the name of Willam (or some such variation of William).

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Ishara: We don't really have enough of Tigraine's life among the Aiel to know what went on. It didn't even have to be the rings, just someone with the Foretelling.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Or a Dreamer. If they'd noticed some sort of disaster resulting from trying to make Shaiel into a Wise One, they would have had the sense not to bother.

On the other hand, if Tigraine really had had some channeling ability, then I feel that at least some AS would have noticed that, and it would have made them pay a lot more attention to her. Elayne escaped most of that because there are other pressing issues (TG, the Dragon, the Asha'man, Mat clobbering Galad) that are even more important. But in Tigraine's time, there was not even the Aiel War, yet, since that only got started as a side effect of her leaving.

[Ishara]

Oh, so you're saying that maybe she wouldn't have been made an apprentice to the WO's if one of them had seen somehting about in the Rings, or had a Foretelling?

I have a couple of problems with that. First, what one sees in the Rings is personal, so unless Tigraine had a direct and personal impact on one of the WO's going through the Rings, she wouldn't have appeared. I think I mentioned that in an earlier post. Secondly, even if she did appear in the Rings as a kind of foretelling (with a small "f"), it may have been one of the visions that disappeared immediately from the mind. No guarantee that the WO in question would have remembered long enough to comment on it.

Second, I'm thinking that with the backstory of Tigraine being so important to the Aiel and how she came to give birth to Rand, that it would havedefinitely been mentioned if there was a second Foretelling about her in the Waste. I mean, they knew about the first one (Gitara's), so why not the second, especially since it would have been one of their own to have made the second Foretelling? I'm just not sure that it's a logical step to assume that there could have been. I think it's mor elogical to assume that there wasn't one - and that she couldn't channel. End stop.

[Davian93]

A memory from the rings might have been enough for them to not kill her or cast her back over the Spine as the fleeting memory would have been enough. This is countered by the fact that Maidens found Tigraine, not Wise Ones.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I'm not making the argument that she could channel, she's got enough near relatives with the spark that it could have just skipped her and she was merely a carrier. Especially if Rand's father could channel. I'm just saying that the AS would have left her alone if Moroso told them to, and that the WO's could have had their reasons for letting her become a Maiden, namely a Dreaming or a Fortelling.

As far as Morgase being a Novice, that enters into the puppeteering of the White Tower. She was a high enough rank that, channeler or not, they'd want her on their side.

Tigraine's is an incredibly intriguing story, one I'm sorry RJ will never be able to tell. I mean, the Daughter-Heir of Andor is hardly pampered, but it's a long spear-throw away from being hard enough to become an Aiel Maiden of the Spear.

[GonzoTheGreat]

If what's-his-name (Janduin, I now remember) could have channeled, then he would have killed the DO. That would have severely shortened the series, I think.

[Enigma]

I'm not making the argument that she could channel, she's got enough near relatives with the spark that it could have just skipped her and she was merely a carrier. Especially if Rand's father could channel. I'm just saying that the AS would have left her alone if Moroso told them to, and that the WO's could have had their reasons for letting her become a Maiden, namely a Dreaming or a Fortelling.

Its possible that Morose could have ordered AS to have a "hands off" attitude to a channeling Tigraine but we have seen how the different factiosn are very good at twisting any order from the top if its inconvenient.

If you have the heir the the most powerful nation in the land with the ability to become a full sister I suspect the Sitters and possibly heads of the Ajah's would have to be brough in on the secret to get them to leave her alone. Otherwise what ever the Amyrlin said the Hall might well pass a resolution against letting Tigraine go home.

Its just my impression but early in the series when the Aes Sedai still though that its was business as usual they were all drooling over Elayne first because of her strenght but secondly and more importantly she would be the first openly AS queen in a very long time.

Its one thing to have an AS advisor but another to have an AS ruling a nation. Quite a few AS probably had ides that they could go back to the days when rulers were just regional governers for the WT and could not keep their throne without the WT approval.

[Marie Curie 7]

Tigraine was already married and had a son, Galad, who was old enough in 972 to retain some memories of his birth mother after she left -- five to seven years old?

That would put the "traditional tower training" of the andoran daughter-heir at around a decade or so before Morgase was at the Tower in roughly 970NE. Ancient history as far as the series is concerned.

Yeah. And Tigraine would have been sent to the White Tower as Daughter-Heir as a result of Andoran law:


The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: 27 - Andor

SUCCESSION

The most widely known tradition of Andor is that only a Queen may sit upon the Lion Throne and wear the Rose Crown, never a king. (This initially arose when none of the royal sons survived the War of the Hundred Years, but eventually became law.) The eldest daughter is named Daughter-Heir. By law she is first sent to the Tower to study, then ascends the throne upon her mother's death or retirement. Her eldest brother, styled First Prince of the Sword, is sworn to protect and defend his sister with his life. The First Prince is trained from childhood to command the Queen's armies in times of war and to be her military advisor. If the Queen has no surviving brother, she appoints the First Prince.

So, we can assume that Tigraine did go to the White Tower, but it was not anything worth mentioning in the books.

[Nazbaque]

Hmmm what if it turned out that Cadsuane taught Tigraine at the Tower? She might try to use the information to teach Rand to cry again. Just a random thought.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I don't think that would work all that well, and I do not think it is likely either. Cadsuane had supposedly already been in retreat when she popped up because of the Aiel War, and she hadn't been all that eager to teach in the Tower (or do anything else there, for that matter) before she went to plant roses. She had been more the active type, a sort of female Conan the Barbarian.

[Enigma]

Do we know how long that the heir has to stay in the Tower? I don't think it is mentioned anywhere. Obviously it would be a lot longer if she can actually channell. Without that abitlity all the AS can do is give her a general eduction in diplomacy, the Game of Houses and history with probably some military tactics thrown in.

This is the sort of an education the heir probably has already received from a very early age. Granted the AS are probably better that the run of the mill tutors but if you cant get good help when you are queen whats the point in having a crown?

Its just my opinion but for a non channeler the training is probaby a referesher course with the Tower putting an AS gloss on things and giving the heir another point of view to events i.e. other than an Andoran pov.

As far as Cadsuane I was under the impression that she never spent a lot of time in the Tower and was almost always in the field. This would account for the fact that nearly ever AS has heard of her but very few actually know her. Most AS spend a lot of time in the Tower and would probably not interact with her too much.

[The Immortal One]

Elayne first because of her strenght but secondly and more importantly she would be the first openly AS queen in a very long time.
Perhaps Elayne's strength was one of the reasons the White Tower thouught she could be an openly AS queen. Even if Tigraine could channel if she was below average strength the White Tower might not want to make it openly known.


Could someone put together a list of all of Rand's relative, especially those who can channel? The only channelling relatives of Rand that I can think of are Moiraine (who is rather distant relative) and that one in the Rhuidean memories who had to be sent away (and that one was about 2000-3000 years ago).

[Zaela Sedai]

I don't think the WOs find learners at all, just sparkers.

And since Tigraine wasn't even aiel to begin with, the rules don't apply to her at all. The WOs don't have rules and would need to decides the merits of her case as they saw fit.

Given aiel culture at the time, if Tigraine said an AS sent me, the aile would probably have fallen over themselves giving it to her.

Sorry this irked me enough to come out of retirement.


TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 14 - Meetings.
"So you are one of those the Aes Sedai call wilders." There was a hint of something in the last word, but whether scorn or pity, Nynaeve did not like it. The term was seldom complimentary, in the Tower. Of course, there were no wilders among the Aiel. The Wise Ones who could channel found every last girl with the spark born in her, those who would develop the ability to channel sooner or later even if they did not try to learn. They claimed also to find every girl without the spark who could learn if instructed. No Aiel girl died trying to learn by herself. "You know the dangers of learning the Power without guidance, Aes Sedai. Do not think the dangers of the dream are less. They are just as great, perhaps more for those who venture without knowledge."

[Marie Curie 7]

Could someone put together a list of all of Rand's relative, especially those who can channel? The only channelling relatives of Rand that I can think of are Moiraine (who is rather distant relative) and that one in the Rhuidean memories who had to be sent away (and that one was about 2000-3000 years ago).

Uh, how do you think Moiraine is related by blood to Rand, even distantly? Rand is the son of Tigraine and Janduin, and Tigraine was a Mantear. Tigraine did marry Taringail Damodred before she went to the Waste, and gave birth to Galad. So Galad is Rand's half brother because they share the same mother. But Rand is not related to the Damodreds by blood, and so therefore he is not related to Elayne (or Gawyn) at all by blood (except very, very, very distantly because all Andoran Houses are of Ishara's lineage), since Elayne's (and Gawyn's) parents were Morgase Trakand and Taringail Damodred. And he is not related to Moiraine, either. Rand is related to Luc/Isam/Slayer, though, since Luc Mantear was Tigraine's brother.

[Ishara]

Thank you Zae! I knew that was wrong!

Thanks for the clarification Gil - I didn't pick up on the reference to AS.

Either way, I'm still partial to the idea that Tigraine went to the Tower, couldn't channel (or could, but very weakly), and was sent home after a time.

[OutFoxed]

Many presumptions have been made here that Morgase would have trained in the WT for "political expediency"; the WT would have pulled her in because of her connection to a powerful noble house. Is there any reference to this occurreing to other Andoran Noble Houses?


Did Dyelin, High Seat of House Taravin?She is beautiful despite a few lines in her face and a bit of gray in her golden hair. (TPoD, Ch 28)



Ellorien, High Seat of House Tremane?She is plumply pretty and a few years older than Morgase. (TFoH, Ch 19)



Aemlyn, High Seat of House Carand?She is graying. (TPoD, Ch 18)



Arathelle, Hight Seat of House Renshar?Her face is creased face and she is graying. (TPoD, Ch 17)



All of these women are at least as old as, or older than Morgase. Yet, no information on any of them says they were ever trained at the tower. Certainly at least one of them would have said something if they were. Wouldn’t Dyelin have mentioned it at least once to Elayne? There’s nothing. If none of the others went for “political expediency”, why is it being presumed that Morgase did? Other than for her miniscule channeling ability, there is no good reason for her to be anywhere near the WT.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Yes, but a miniscule channeling ability and her connections got her foot in the door. ;)

[Weird Harold]

Yes, but a miniscule channeling ability and her connections got her foot in the door. ;)
I don't think that channeling ability had anything to do with Morgase's going to the Tower, it was all political and "finishing school driven.

Quotemasters -- I have searched periodically since this thread started for the throway comment in New Spring about the young women who came to the tower for an education. It might have been from the main series when Min was being Elmindreda, just before Elaida's Coup. There is at least one reference to noble-women who cannot channel and never had any expectaion of channeling coming to the Tower for an education -- much as the Convents and monasteries ran (still run) schools for nobles in the real world.

[Nazbaque]

Absense of evidense is not evidense absense. I can give you three solutions to that OF.

1) All of those women tried but they didn't have any ability and they weren't DH so... And to a noble something that says you are "not good enough" is something you shut up about.

2) They didn't even try because their parents desided against it or didn't even consider it. A girl of 14 isn't really free to make her own choices.

3) They just didn't want to go and their parents had no reason to force them.

[OutFoxed]

Absense of evidense is not evidense absense. I can give you three solutions to that OF.

1) All of those women tried but they didn't have any ability and they weren't DH so... And to a noble something that says you are "not good enough" is something you shut up about.

2) They didn't even try because their parents desided against it or didn't even consider it. A girl of 14 isn't really free to make her own choices.

3) They just didn't want to go and their parents had no reason to force them.But it still comes back to my original point to start the thread.

Elayne went to the WT because she was the DH of Andor. No problem. Understood. But Morgase wasnt the DH of Andor, just the DH of a noble house. Unless someone can track down WH's remembered notation about other non-channelers going to the WT besides Andoran DH's, there would be no reason for Morgase to be there except for her channeling ability. That ability was so miniscule even AS said she didn't need to stay unstil she could channel safely. That's why they didn't have a problem with her leaving after less than 2 years to go fight for a throne. She couldn't hurt anyone with it. If she wasn't DH, and if even the AS admit she didn't need their training...why was she there? I know it's a really nit-picky point, but combined with the question of "Tigraine should have gone but we have no proof she did"... it's been bugging me and I've been looking for something besides presumption.

I've gotten a lot of "political expediency" stuff, but those are just more off-screen presumptions and don't see it as supportable enough to be usable.

[OutFoxed]

Uh, how do you think Moiraine is related by blood to Rand, even distantly? Rand is the son of Tigraine and Janduin, and Tigraine was a Mantear. Tigraine did marry Taringail Damodred before she went to the Waste, and gave birth to Galad. So Galad is Rand's half brother because they share the same mother. But Rand is not related to the Damodreds by blood, and so therefore he is not related to Elayne (or Gawyn) at all by blood (except very, very, very distantly because all Andoran Houses are of Ishara's lineage), since Elayne's (and Gawyn's) parents were Morgase Trakand and Taringail Damodred. And he is not related to Moiraine, either. Rand is related to Luc/Isam/Slayer, though, since Luc Mantear was Tigraine's brother.Taringail Damodred was Moraine's older 1/2 brother. Rand would be related to Moiraine through Galad. She would be an Aunt of some sort...maybe an Aunt twice removed or some nonesense like that, but they are related.

[Nazbaque]

Hmmm Fox I think you haven't really understood how Aes Sedai work. They walk the fine line of nearly breaking the law without actually doing so. They can obviously see a use for training Andoran nobles, but the DH is the only allowed exception to the rule of ability. They WANT to train those nobles but the rules say they can't. In Morgase's case the law wasn't broken. She had the ability. It was of course just an excuse to train her but that's all they needed. With the other nobles they don't have even an excuse so they can't train them because of law no matter how much they want to.

EDIT: Oh and Marie was pointing out that Rand and Moiraine are not related by BLOOD. Are you making a claim that the ability to channel can spread through matrimony? my sister marries a channeller so I start to channel?

[OutFoxed]

Hmmm Fox I think you haven't really understood how Aes Sedai work. They walk the fine line of nearly breaking the law without actually doing so. They can obviously see a use for training Andoran nobles, but the DH is the only allowed exception to the rule of ability. They WANT to train those nobles but the rules say they can't. In Morgase's case the law wasn't broken. She had the ability. It was of course just an excuse to train her but that's all they needed. With the other nobles they don't have even an excuse so they can't train them because of law no matter how much they want to.

EDIT: Oh and Marie was pointing out that Rand and Moiraine are not related by BLOOD. Are you making a claim that the ability to channel can spread through matrimony? my sister marries a channeller so I start to channel?
The Queen of Andor always has an AS advisor. It’s as much a part of the “tradition” or agreement Andor has had with the WT since their founding as training the DH, channeler or not. They don’t need any other “hook”. They “own” the Queen. All others will follow or else. If they have trouble the Queen’s advisor can’t handle, they can send a Gray to iron it out, or a larger deputation if needed. They don’t have to train anyone else…it would just be a waste of time and effort.

As to Rand and Moiraine, I said nothing about channeling, meant nothing about channeling, so I don’t know how that was construed. I was speaking only to the relationship between the two. They are related by blood… if distantly. Rand and Galad are ½ brothers. Through Galad, Moiriaine would be some sort of aunt to Rand even if its one of those odd twice-removed situations or something like that. If you want to get technical, Rand and Elayne might be just as closely related as Rand/Galad. Forget the Trakand relationship to Mantear. Elayne and Galad have the same father; Taringail Damodred, so Elayne is Rand’s half-brother’s half-sister. Wouldn’t she then be Rand’s ¼-sister? Is there such a relationship? We’d probably have to get a professional genealogist involved to figure it all out.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Uh, when Rand asks that noble, "If Elayne and I were farmers would we be related?" she says, "No." (Would SOMEONE please find that quote?) They're not even step-siblings.


Moiraine is an aunt by marriage of Rand. That's all. There is no genetic relationship.

[GonzoTheGreat]

[If you want to get technical, Rand and Elayne might be just as closely related as Rand/Galad. Forget the Trakand relationship to Mantear. Elayne and Galad have the same father; Taringail Damodred, so Elayne is Rand’s half-brother’s half-sister. Wouldn’t she then be Rand’s ¼-sister? Is there such a relationship? We’d probably have to get a professional genealogist involved to figure it all out.All it takes is someone who has had the basics that Mendel figured out more than a century ago, and for that what I learned is more than sufficient.

No, Elayne is not Rand's ¼-sister, and such a relationship does not exist. (At least, not with humans. Insects might be able to manage it; they do really weird things anyway.)

I'll try to make it clear by giving a (somewhat simplified, but essentially correct) sketch of their genetic makeup. First I'll define the parents:
Tigraine I'll designate as Shaiel, for reasons which will become clear rapidly*. She has the genotype SS.
Taringail has the genotype TT.
Janduin has the genotype JJ.
Morgase has the genotype MM.

Now, Galad has the genotype ST, as the descendant of Shaiel (Tigraine) and Taringail.
Rand has the genotype SJ.
Elayne has the genotype MT.

So as you can see, genetically Rand has nothing in common with Elayne. Or at least, no more than any other two random people have with each other. Well, any two random people living on the same continent, if you want to be really picky.

* If you can't figure it out, that's okay. Just answer the following question: how would you have distinguished the genotypes of Tigraine, Taringail and Galad if I hadn't used her Aiel name?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Uh, when Rand asks that noble, "If Elayne and I were farmers would we be related?" she says, "No." (Would SOMEONE please find that quote?) They're not even step-siblings.Rand is not quite as blatant as that. He is still trying to hide the relationship, in part because he doesn't want to be stuck fighting Elayne for the throne of Andor.

LOC, Connecting Lines, Chapter 26

Rand blinked. "You’re allcousins? Allof you? That doesn’t seem poss—" He leaned forward intently. "Elenia, if Morgase and Tigraine had been... merchants, or farmers... how closely would they have been related?"
"Farmers?" she exclaimed, staring at him. "My Lord Dragon, what a peculiar —" The blood drained slowly from her face; he had been a farmer, after all. She wet her lips, a nervous flicker of the tongue. "I suppose... I should have to think. Farmers. I suppose that means imagining all the Houses as farmers." A nervous titter broke from her before she drowned it in her punch. "Had they been farmers, I don’t think anyone would consider them related at all. All the connections are too far back. But they were not, my Lord Dragon... "

[Nazbaque]

Hmmm so it is politics you don't understand Fox.

Tower trained Queen + Aes Sedai advisor = a good way of making Andor do what they want.

Tower trained Queen + Aes Sedai advisor + 10 high ranking Tower trained Andoran nobles = a better way to make Andor do what they want.

Tower trained Queen + Aes Sedai advisor + 10 high ranking Tower trained Andoran nobles + Aes Sedai teachers in every Andoran school = an even better way to make Andor do what they want

And the Aes Sedai dream = Make the whole world do what we want.

They can't have it but that is no reason not to work for something near it.

[OutFoxed]

Hmmm so it is politics you don't understand Fox.

Tower trained Queen + Aes Sedai advisor = a good way of making Andor do what they want.

Tower trained Queen + Aes Sedai advisor + 10 high ranking Tower trained Andoran nobles = a better way to make Andor do what they want.

Tower trained Queen + Aes Sedai advisor + 10 high ranking Tower trained Andoran nobles + Aes Sedai teachers in every Andoran school = an even better way to make Andor do what they want

And the Aes Sedai dream = Make the whole world do what we want.

They can't have it but that is no reason not to work for something near it.I've understood the potential all along. What I posted in the original message was a request for information from the story that would support the concepts:
1. Did Tigraine actually go to the WT for training? We have supposition, but is there any proof besides guesswork?
2. Why did Morgase go? Everything seems to be supposition and guesswork. Is there any support material, even the most vague hints within the story that might support it? I can't find a thing.

We can argue the merits of WT indoctrination of the noblel bloodlines of Andor till the cows come home, it won't answer the question: Is guesswork all we have?

[OutFoxed]

All it takes is someone who has had the basics that Mendel figured out more than a century ago, and for that what I learned is more than sufficient.

No, Elayne is not Rand's ¼-sister, and such a relationship does not exist. (At least, not with humans. Insects might be able to manage it; they do really weird things anyway.)

I'll try to make it clear by giving a (somewhat simplified, but essentially correct) sketch of their genetic makeup. First I'll define the parents:
Tigraine I'll designate as Shaiel, for reasons which will become clear rapidly*. She has the genotype SS.
Taringail has the genotype TT.
Janduin has the genotype JJ.
Morgase has the genotype MM.

Now, Galad has the genotype ST, as the descendant of Shaiel (Tigraine) and Taringail.
Rand has the genotype SJ.
Elayne has the genotype MT.

So as you can see, genetically Rand has nothing in common with Elayne. Or at least, no more than any other two random people have with each other. Well, any two random people living on the same continent, if you want to be really picky.

* If you can't figure it out, that's okay. Just answer the following question: how would you have distinguished the genotypes of Tigraine, Taringail and Galad if I hadn't used her Aiel name?Ok, so there's no blood reltionship. What about the social taboos against perceived incest? From the viewpoint of avoiding birth defects, their relationship seems moot. But from the viewpoint of alienation of the masses (noble and common) aren't they way across the line? Even the royal courts of our real world thought carefully before treading this closely to that line.

If the whole truth of their "relationship" comes out, people might be convinced there was no problem with birth defects, etc., but how many might lose total respect for either or both because of what they might see as a violation of certain moral barriers?

Just look at Galad himself. Put yourself in his position. You grow up with a 1/2 sister on your father's side. Then years later you find you've got a 1/2 brother from your mother's side... and they're making babies. That's got gross you out, no matter who you are.

[Weird Harold]

1. Did Tigraine actually go to the WT for training? We have supposition, but is there any proof besides guesswork?

Barring evidence that she did NOT go, the quote posted earlier that it is required by Andoran law is evidence that she did go.

[Josh1337]

I'm not certain about this, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm gone, but wasn't there a Foretelling that the outcome of the Last Battle would depend on House Trakand?

[Nazbaque]

Not Trakand specifically. Elaida Foretold that the Royal line of Andor would be vital, but at that time Morgase had not yet taken the throne. So it could be one of three things:

1) It might mean Trakand

2) It might mean Tigraine or Luc

3) It might mean the children of Rand and Elayne

[Terez]

Not Trakand specifically. Elaida Foretold that the Royal line of Andor would be vital, but at that time Morgase had not yet taken the throne. So it could be one of three things:

1) It might mean Trakand

2) It might mean Tigraine or Luc

3) It might mean the children of Rand and Elayne
It means Rand. Rand, being Tigraine's son, is of the Royal line of Andor.

[the silent speaker]

But being male, Rand is ineligible for the throne, so arguably he's not.

Besides, it could mean more than one thing. Elayne appears not to be small potatoes either, even without accounting for Rand as being of the royal line.

[Terez]

But being male, Rand is ineligible for the throne, so arguably he's not. Whether or not he's eligible for the throne, he's still of the royal line of Andor.

Besides, it could mean more than one thing. Elayne appears not to be small potatoes either, even without accounting for Rand as being of the royal line. She's definitely not unimportant, but do you really think she'll be the "key" to the Last Battle? The only other candidates are Morgase, Gawyn, and Galad (or Elayne's babies if she has them in time). And Luc I suppose.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Ok, so there's no blood reltionship. What about the social taboos against perceived incest? From the viewpoint of avoiding birth defects, their relationship seems moot. But from the viewpoint of alienation of the masses (noble and common) aren't they way across the line? Even the royal courts of our real world thought carefully before treading this closely to that line.Some of them. In others (the Egyptian Pharaoh's, for thousands of years) it was considered an advantage if you married a close relation.
If the whole truth of their "relationship" comes out, people might be convinced there was no problem with birth defects, etc., but how many might lose total respect for either or both because of what they might see as a violation of certain moral barriers?You mean, compared to having a full AS on the throne, who is just one of the wives of a man who can channel?

I'd imagine that if someone wants to be both brave* and bigotted, then he can find other issues to be affronted over.
Just look at Galad himself. Put yourself in his position. You grow up with a 1/2 sister on your father's side. Then years later you find you've got a 1/2 brother from your mother's side... and they're making babies. That's got gross you out, no matter who you are.Well, a rather important part in there is "grow up with". That's something that has proven to be an issue when it comes to deciding whether or not a relationship offends our sensibilities, even though in theory it should not make any difference.

* If you wonder about why that would be brave, ask yourself WWMD, if someone came out and criticised the Lord Dragon. The M stands for Masema, of course.

[GonzoTheGreat]

She's definitely not unimportant, but do you really think she'll be the "key" to the Last Battle? The only other candidates are Morgase, Gawyn, and Galad (or Elayne's babies if she has them in time). And Luc I suppose.Or Tigraine, who, at the time of the prediction, was still alive. Her actions have been fairly useful to preparing for TG, so it would not be too much of a stretch to call her the key.

[Terez]

Or Tigraine, who, at the time of the prediction, was still alive. Her actions have been fairly useful to preparing for TG, so it would not be too much of a stretch to call her the key.
Yeah, it would be. lol...lots of people could be the "key" by that reasoning, but we all know it's Rand.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yeah, it would be. lol...lots of people could be the "key" by that reasoning, but we all know it's Rand.Actually, I think that Tigraine, Rand's mother, is the only other serious possibility, besides Rand himseslf. All others are less keyy*, but at that point in the story Tigraine could really be considered the key to the whole situation.

* Key-y? Imbued with keyness? How do you express this, anyway?

[Terez]

You could say that Janduin was the key just as easily. Sure, the prophecy doesn't apply to non-royal line people, but Tigraine is no more "key" than Janduin.

Anyway, I'm not arguing this with you any more because it's retarded and I have better things to do.

[GonzoTheGreat]

But Janduin's actions were less central to what happened. Tigraine's leaving led to civil war/succession in Andor. It was a direct cause for the cutting down of Avendoraldera, the invasion of Cairhien and the loss of the throne by the Damodred family. Her return led to Rand being born on a mountainslope. Janduin had an important role, true, but all of it was set into motion by Tigraine's actions.

She was of course influenced by Gitara Sedai, but then, Rand was also influenced by Moiraine and Verin, but neither of them was nearly as central as Rand himself.

However, the most reasonable option seems combining the two contenders:
The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted – and had known enough even then to keep to herself – was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle.This does not say "someone in the Royal line", it talks about that line itself. So it may very well be that Tigraine and Rand together are meant here. Tigraine to set the stage, and Rand to act on it (http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/all-world-s-stage):

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.

Which may be where RJ got the idea for the seven Ages in the first place, now that I think of it.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Don't confuse the issue and bring Shakespeare into it. Besides, we all know what happened at the end of Hamlet.

[Terez]

Don't confuse the issue
You know that's his favorite pastime, right?

[OutFoxed]

However, the most reasonable option seems combining the two contenders...
“the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle.”

Arguing for a single individual or small group combo (twos and threes) is useless. Equal weight arguments can be used to support or eliminate any combination proposed.

What is the “Royal Line” of Andor? No one can hold the throne unless they can prove they have some relationship to Ishara, and every noble House in the kingdom makes (and supposedly proves) that claim. It would seem interpretable that it isn’t any single family or branch of Ishara’s kin that will make the difference, but Andor as a whole. Ishara was the first queen, and every person who can prove they are related is of that “Royal Line”, including Rand. Andor itself is the key to winning TG.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I interpret it as the "royal line of Andor," at the time of the Foretelling.


Which would be Tigraine and her son.

[Bayle]

I interpret it as the "royal line of Andor," at the time of the Foretelling.


Which would be Tigraine and her son.


I don't know that any foretelling necessarily means "at the time of" - I mean they are typically about the future! :D

But I do that it was "foretell-speak" for Rand and perhaps as a sub set, Morgase/Elayne etc. but more in relation to their connections to Rand and therefor to the last battle.

That is to say, Let's say Rand were born of a maiden, but NOT Tigraine, hypothetically, would that foretelling have said anything about the Royal Line of Andor? ... I think perhaps not

[Zaela Sedai]

Agreed Gil, the fact that Elaida interpretted it wrong makes it even more concrete to me, lol

[OutFoxed]

But I do that it was "foretell-speak" for Rand and perhaps as a sub set, Morgase/Elayne etc. but more in relation to their connections to Rand and therefor to the last battle.

That is to say, Let's say Rand were born of a maiden, but NOT Tigraine, hypothetically, would that foretelling have said anything about the Royal Line of Andor? ... I think perhaps notDyelin tells Rand that Mordrellen Mantear died after her children were sent away by her Aes Sedai counselor Gitara Moroso:

“She stayed the Queen's counselor until Mordrellen died. From heartbreak over Tigraine on top of Luc, so it was said.” [LoC, Ch 16]

Galina remembers:

“She had been Aes Sedai fewer than, ninety years, her long black hair untouched as yet by gray, but for nearly twenty of those she had been head of the Red Ajah—called the Highest by other Red sisters, in private; considered by other Reds equal to the Amyrlin Seat—and for all but five of the years she had worn the shawl, she had been of the Black Ajah, in truth. Not to the exclusion of her duties as a Red, but superior to them. Her place on the Supreme Council of the Black Ajah was next to that of Alviarin herself, and she was one of only three who knew the name of the woman who led their hooded meetings. She could speak any name in those meetings—a king's—and know that name belonged to the dead. It had happened, with a king and with a queen.” [ACoS, Ch 40]

We learn that the BA was responsible for the deaths of a king and a queen in the time of Galina’s BA membership, and it was not recent.

It doesn’t feel like RJ’s style to give such information without it being related to something else we know. We should be able to figure out, with fair certainty, who at least one of those rulers was.

I’m not sure who the king was (still poking around for possibilities). But the queen mentioned should not be someone who was never mentioned before or after in the books (like some unknown queen of Altara). It makes more sense that it was someone already mentioned to have died. Mordrellen’s death fits with this conclusion.

Furthermore, it’s doubtful that a ruler like Mordrellen would really die of heartbreak. After all, as the queen of Andor she would have to be quite strong. In her youth she would have attended WT training; certainly that would have toughened her up some. Add to that a lifetime of ruling Andor and I don’t see a delicate flower who can’t handle the heat. She had no proof the children had died. They had left Andor, but death was not a proven certainty. This shouldn’t lead to death by grief.

All her children were adults when she died. Even Tigraine, the younger of the two, was married and had born a child. Mordrellen still had the comfort of a grandbaby to prop herself up emotionally. It’s unlikely that Mordrellen was very old at the time of her death; she was likely in her mid- to late-40’s (maybe early-50’s). Middle aged, certainly, but not geriatric and easily distraught to death. To me her manner of death is suspicious.

Liandrin tells us there are Black AS who can kill with the OP and make it appear natural:


“She wished she had Chesmal's skill at killing with the Power, or even Rianna's lesser talent. Strange that the ability to kill with the Power, to stop a heart or boil blood in the veins, should be so closely linked to Healing.” [TSR, Ch 38]


The BA had motive. After Tigraine disappeared, Mordrellen’s death led to the “Third Andoran War for Succession”. Also, Morgase “became ruler of Andor only after a long and bitter struggle.” The BA would know that, without a presentable heir, House Mantear would lose the Throne. Perhaps Mordrellen was killed to spark just such a situation; a Succession War which could give them a chance to somehow gain added influence with whichever house gained the throne. There’s also Elaida’s foretelling that the Royal Line of Andor would be the key to winning TG. An engineered change of which noble house runs the country might be seen by the BA as a way to attempt circumventing the foretelling.

Factor after factor points, to me, more at Andor as a whole – the whole of Ishara’s family tree – as being that “key” to winning TG, not any one individual or small group. Dyelin’s backing of Elayne goes heavily towards keeping Andor peaceful and whole so it can participate properly. Other noble houses following in line help as well. Naysayers are falling by the wayside as momentum builds. One by one, the pieces of the “Royal Line” are coming together to work as a whole.

If the “Royal Line” still plays a role, even after changing the specific branch in charge, then the broader picture is more appropriate. The “Royal Line” as a whole is what counts, not any individual or small group. The “Royal Line” means all of Ishara’s line, every noble related to her. Elayne as Queen (when she gets there) gives Rand (also of the Line, but cannot rule because of gender) access to a big military and financial power. Andor itself will sit on the Rand/DR side of the territorial split with the Seanchan. Andor sits astride some of the most critical trade and military transport routs; control of those, not only by the Queen but by the various noble branch families in charge of various sections of it, could be critical to troop transport and supply.

The “Royal Line” is Ishara’s blood, all of them.

[Zaela Sedai]

Wow, this is one thing that should be looked into so deeply... The Key to winning the Last battle is Rand, they cannot win without him, period.

There's 150+ quotes saying so, must I post them all or will you twist each and every one?

[Weird Harold]

The BA had motive. After Tigraine disappeared, Mordrellen’s death led to the “Third Andoran War for Succession”. ... There’s also Elaida’s foretelling that the Royal Line of Andor would be the key to winning TG. An engineered change of which noble house runs the country might be seen by the BA as a way to attempt circumventing the foretelling.

Elaida's Foretelling about the 'Royal Line of Andor' isn't known to anyone except Elaida and the Readers. How could the BA base regicide on a a foretelling they know nothing about?

Elaida obviously interprets the Foretelling as "the royal line in power at the time of T'G."

Most readers interpret it as "the Royal line at the time of the Foretelling" -- in large part because Elaida attached herself to House Trakand and Rand is of House Mantear lineage.

All of Andor, or even All Andoran nobility, is certainly a viable interpretation, but it seems a bit too non-specific to be 'worthy' of what appears to be a "by these signs ye shall know him" sort of foretelling.

[Terez]

I interpret it as the "royal line of Andor," at the time of the Foretelling.


Which would be Tigraine and her son.
And her future son. Mantear was the royal line at the time of the Foretelling, but I don't see why Rand would be excluded from the Foretelling, seeing as how he hadn't been born yet.

And yeah, you could interpret it any number of ways, but that doesn't change the fact that Rand is most definitely the key to winning the Last Battle. The prophecies say so. So Rand is the most obvious interpretation of Elaida's Foretelling - Occam's Razor takes care of all the other candidates quite nicely, I think.

[Nazbaque]

why is everyone asuming there is only one key to winning TG? That door could have a hundred locks on it. Rand is certainly one key, but what about the others? Perrin and Mat certainly. How many others will play a part so vital that everything is lost should they fail? Lan? Nynaeve? Egwene?

Rand is the most vital certainly, but he can't do all by himself.

[Terez]

why is everyone asuming there is only one key to winning TG?
We aren't. Why don't you just admit you forgot about Rand?

[Terez]

Uh, how do you think Moiraine is related by blood to Rand, even distantly? Rand is the son of Tigraine and Janduin, and Tigraine was a Mantear. Tigraine did marry Taringail Damodred before she went to the Waste, and gave birth to Galad. So Galad is Rand's half brother because they share the same mother. But Rand is not related to the Damodreds by blood, and so therefore he is not related to Elayne (or Gawyn) at all by blood (except very, very, very distantly because all Andoran Houses are of Ishara's lineage), since Elayne's (and Gawyn's) parents were Morgase Trakand and Taringail Damodred. And he is not related to Moiraine, either. Rand is related to Luc/Isam/Slayer, though, since Luc Mantear was Tigraine's brother.
Don't forget about Perival Mantear. :)

[Nazbaque]

We aren't. Why don't you just admit you forgot about Rand?
I didn't. I simply meant the lines from the people as in Tigraine -> Rand -> Rand's kids
I only mention Rand's and Elayne's children because in them the lines of Trakand and Mantear unite. I suppose I could have made myself clearer.

[Zaela Sedai]

We aren't saying he's the only key but he is THE key. Without him they lose... period... without one of the many others he still may win.

[Neilbert]

The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

Perhaps not so much. It's really close to the wire. If Egwene or Bashere, or even Dobraine gets taken out that could mean the game. The Light has to pull off a spectacular finish.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Egwene a glimmer of light?
I'm not sure I believe that. I think that she falls squarely in the "matters to keep on as they have been going thus far" category.

[OutFoxed]

why is everyone asuming there is only one key to winning TG? That door could have a hundred locks on it. Rand is certainly one key, but what about the others? Perrin and Mat certainly. How many others will play a part so vital that everything is lost should they fail? Lan? Nynaeve? Egwene?

Rand is the most vital certainly, but he can't do all by himself.For want of a nail a shoe was lost.
For want of a shoe a horse was lost
For want of a horse a rider was lost
For want of a rider a message was lost
For want of a message a battle was lost
For want of a battle a war was lost
For want of a war a kingdom was lost.
All for want of a nail.

It's impossible to tell which "Nail" (character) is so critical that their loss will destroy the whole house of cards. Everyone knows that Rand is the DR and critical to fighting the DO. Certainly if he were to be taken out of the mix the Light would lose. But I refer everyone to what WH has claimed about the impossibility of removing Rand from the equation in our discussions about ta'veren. If it's almost literally impossible for that to happen, why obsess over him? Mat and Perrin, also strong ta'veren are probably in the same case; nearly unremovable. Without Rand in the "Royal Line" equation, there is no other single person Elaida's fortelling could be speaking about. It must be the "Line" as a whole.

If Rand is the "Key" and he cannot be removed because his Wheel imbued ta'verenness makes him effectively "invulnerable", then the Light has already won and the rest is just pomp and show for dramatic effect. There has to be an element of possible loss to provide a real threat, a real danger of losing. An Andor in chaos would provide just that scenario.

[Ishara]

Not to stir the pot, but I'm surprised that no one has brought up Star Wars yet. This could be another case of mistaken importance. Now, I'm not diminishing Rand 0 obviously dude is ky to winning - but, it could very well mean the children he and Elayne (or he and Aviendha, or all of them) have as well. Didn't it end up being the children of Leia and Han who brought balance back to the Force?

Just asking?

[Zaela Sedai]

Not really though, at the end it was Vader himself who was the balance, it just took a while. His kids gave him the reason to come back, but if it weren't for him the Dark Side would not have been defeated.

[GonzoTheGreat]

So Rand is going to chop his own son's hand off (a couple of times, perhaps), before he will finally get around to defeating the DO?

[Weird Harold]

But I refer everyone to what WH has claimed about the impossibility of removing Rand from the equation in our discussions about ta'veren.

'Removing Rand from the Equation' and "assassinating Rand" aren't quite the same thing. Rand is the subject of Prophecy, Visions, and Foretellings and RJ has said that Foretelling and Min's visons are what will happen. Elayne has very blatantly played on that aspect of Prophecy because she can't die before Min's vision of her children's birth comes to fruition.

But guaranteed survival doesn't necessarily mean guaranteed victory for the Light. Rand could fulfill all of the prophecies and still not be a "part of the equation" if in the process he becomes a mangled, irrelevant, madman.

The way to 'remove' a variable from an equation is to reduce it's value to Identity (Zero or One depending on the operations involved.)

[Nazbaque]

Perhaps not quite like that Gonzo but let us say Rand win's and survives TG. Then the whole world decides to bow to him, but thinks "Oh no you don't. I've already done my bit." Then he disguises himself as a beggar.

Years later he is in Caemlyn and a young prince rides up the street. One of his guards gives Rand a push. Rand gets pissed and yells: "Who do you think you are pushing a man like that?"

The prince replies: "I am *beeeep* of Andor, son of Queen Elayne."

Rand: "Son of the queen eh? And who is your father?"

Prince: "My father is gone"

Rand: "Your Mother never told you what happened to your father."

Prince: "She told me enough. She told me he's dead."

Rand: "No, I am your father."

Prince: "NO! That's not true! That's impossible!"

Rand: "Search your feelings you know it to be true."

Prince: "NOOOOO!"


Could use some work I know but it was the best I could do with the spur of a moment.

[Terez]

*retches*

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Actually, I think we're all forgetting someone. Tigraine had TWO sons. Rand is obviously the cornerstone, but I doubt Galad's just going to be peripheral.

[Terez]

Actually, I think we're all forgetting someone. Tigraine had TWO sons.
You're the one that seems to have forgotten that. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=38576&postcount=72) :p

Galad is important, but Rand is The Key to winning the Last Battle (duh).

[Nazbaque]

The way to 'remove' a variable from an equation is to reduce it's value to Identity (Zero or One depending on the operations involved.)
Are we literally think of this as an equation now? Hmmm.... Could be fun.

First the nature of the whole thing. Who wins? Light > Dark or vise versa?

Well if you think of Light and Dark as sums of the characters, supplies, strongholds etc. Then how is Rand important. hmmmm if we treat "no rand" as a negative multiplier then he would truly rule the equation

Light > (no rand)Dark since Dark is negative while light is positive. If Rand changes side the negativity shifts. but if Rand is removed both sides are multiplied by (no rand) and become negative but then the bigger number would seem smaller. And we can't just turn it into being about distance from zero as in |Light| > |Dark| because the no Rand multiplier would be outside with the same result or inside and meaningless.

so no rand can't be rand's opposite but his ... what is the english term? the 1/rand. so if Rand is removed both sides base numbers would be divided by his value but the ">" wouldn't be in error as it would if "no rand" were treated as a negative. So Rand is a really big number that multiplies the whole thing while the rest just add. How big is he? Is there anyone else who acts as a multiplier? Moridin and the other Forsaken? Perrin and Mat?

This could get very complicated you know.

[Ivhon]

Ok. After god knows how many years, an on-topic post.

So it is a given that Rand is key to winning at TG. It is also given that Rand cannot do it alone.

Hence we have other principal supporting characters. The principal characters ARE principal supporting characters because they have roles to play that are essential to Rand being able to win at TG. If they did not have essential roles to play, those principal supporting characters would have no other purpose than to take up pages with extraneous subplots serving no end other than increasing book sales. But I digress...

So we must assume that not ONLY Rand but other principal characters are key. Now, among the principal supporting characters we have:

Elayne - Royal line of Andor
Gawyn - Royal line of Andor
Galad - Royal line of Andor
Morgase - Royal line of Andor
Tigraine - Royal line of Andor
Luc (we don't know exactly what will happen with him yet) - Royal line of Andor.

In addition to these we also have the principal principal character:

Rand - Royal line of Andor

So - some things never change. We seem to be arguing over nothing here. All of the characters listed are in some way key to TG. All are members of the Royal line of Andor. All, therefore, fulfill the criteria of the Foretelling. Also, they as a unit fulfill the criteria of the Foretelling.

What are we arguing about?

[Zaela Sedai]

obviously something Ivhon geez

[The Immortal One]

So we must assume that not ONLY Rand but other principal characters are key. Now, among the principal supporting characters we have:

Elayne - Royal line of Andor
Gawyn - Royal line of Andor
Galad - Royal line of Andor
Morgase - Royal line of Andor
Tigraine - Royal line of Andor
Luc (we don't know exactly what will happen with him yet) - Royal line of Andor.

This does not say "someone in the Royal line", it talks about that line itself.

As Gonzo and Ihvon say, I think that you're all being a bit dismissive in assuming the 'key' is just one person.

In my opinion, it obviously means the 'Royal Line' itself, not a specific person but rather, all of them:

Rand,
Tigraine,
Morgase,
Elayne,
Galad,
Gawyn,
Luc (in a different way),
even Elayne and Rand's children,

(perhaps eventually Rand and Aviendha's and Min's children, and Egwene and Gawyn's children), and

perhaps one or two that I've forgotten.

[Terez]

As Gonzo and Ihvon say, I think that you're all being a bit dismissive in assuming the 'key' is just one person.
Oh come on...this is one of those things where we will never know the actual answer, because there's absolutely no way to reveal it in the plot. It's very obvious that RJ intended for it to be Rand, simply because the revelation that Rand was of the royal line of Andor was what made it clear that Elaida had misinterpreted the Foretelling. :rolleyes: The fact that the others are probably going to be important to one extent or another is pretty irrelevant, considering.

[Davian93]

~reads whole thread~

So yeah, we need a new book.

[greatwolf]

~reads whole thread~

So yeah, we need a new book.

Definitely. Just don't see the need to go back to CoT.