LTT debate

[Frenzy]

Alrighty Terez, you said you wanted to debate the reality or lack thereof of LTT in Rand's head. since i'm a lazy HotH why don't you post or link me to your side of the coin. Then i'll do the same and we can tear down.

[Terez]

I don't figure I'll make you read any of my previous dissertations on the subject. I can always write them again - like I said before, I'm always trying to improve my arguments on the subject, so I'm always game for another round.

How about this (since you're being lazy) - pick a Lews Therin moment. It can be any moment in the series. It can be THE strongest scene as far as making you convinced that Lews Therin is "real" (it might help to give your definition of that, too...everybody's seems to be different), or it can be one of many convincing scenes. You tell me what you think about it, and then I'll tell you what I think about it. And then we can tear down. :D

[Frenzy]

iMy theory on why LTT is real is based on the theory that the taint breaks down the barriers between a soul's incarnations, allowing previously-lived lives to re-emerge. The voice talking to Rand is the re-awakened LTT. The two pieces of evidence to support this is the gradual build-up of LTT, built up as Rand channels more and more and takes in more and more taint to break down the barriers between his life and the last. First it's a little voice, then a louder voice, then voice and mannerisms, memories, dreams, talents (small t), actively grasping for the Power, then actual channeling. The second piece of evidence is the fact that the LTT voice picks up where he left off: incinerating himself to create Dragonmount. That's where the last incarnation of Rand's soul died, so when it's reawakened it wakes up where it left off.

i have other evidence that pulls from the examples of Mat & Birgitte, but let's start simple.

Now it's your turn. You tell me why you think LTT isn't real, give examples, etc. etc. :)

[Lethean Bliss]

Semirhage mentions that this sort of phenomenon -- previous incarnations manifesting in the minds of their current selves -- was known of in the Age of Legends, before the taint existed.

[Terez]

iMy theory on why LTT is real is based on the theory that the taint breaks down the barriers between a soul's incarnations, allowing previously-lived lives to re-emerge. Okay. I agree so far, to a point. I believe that the memories are re-emerging, and of course, Lews Therin's personality is a part of those memories.

The voice talking to Rand is the re-awakened LTT. This is where we break off. I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself. The difference is that he's got past life memories and such to help build the illusion that he's talking to someone else, rather than talking to himself.

The main reasons I believe this:

1. Birgitte shows us that the Hero soul has an over-arching personality that, in the afterlife, can remember all of its past lives and still retain a solid sense of individuality that is apparently consistent in each lifetime. Birgitte, despite all of her past life memories, is one person who is born again many times. Personality is shaped by the environment in which the incarnation is shaped, but the soul, I think, is the aspect of sentience, rather than the personality.

2. Rand shows signs of several real world psychological disorders, and his case seems to be a combination of many. But we know for a fact that he had serious motivation to disassociate himself from Lews Therin's memories, to the point that it would have been surprising if he had not.

The two pieces of evidence to support this is the gradual build-up of LTT, built up as Rand channels more and more and takes in more and more taint to break down the barriers between his life and the last. First it's a little voice, then a louder voice, then voice and mannerisms, memories, dreams, talents (small t), actively grasping for the Power, then actual channeling. The memories aren't so gradual as they appear to be. For instance, in early Lord of Chaos, Rand has some pretty freakishly detailed memories of the Forsaken that he shares with Taim. I think the gradual part is Rand's perception of what, exactly, Lews Therin is. But one thing that is documented over and over and over is that Rand is not Lews Therin, he is Rand al'Thor!

And that's the point, I think. When Rand first recognizes where those weird thoughts are coming from, his first instinct is to freak out:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

"You have two of them," she said finally. "I thought I glimpsed... One is a woman, isn't it?" Her smile could have halted a man's heart and made him grateful. "You are beginning to consider my plan, aren't you? With those, together, the other Chosen will kneel at our feet. We can supplant the Great Lord himself, challenge the Creator. We —"

"You were always ambitious, Mierin." His voice grated in his ears. "Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!"

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. "Graendal said..." she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. "Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!"

Rand's face was like rock; he hoped it hid his shock. He had no idea where his words had come from, but it seemed he could remember her. A dim memory, from before. I am not Lews Therin Telamon! "I am Rand al'Thor!" he said harshly.

"Of course you are." Studying him, she nodded slowly to herself. That cool composure returned. "Of course. Asmodean has been telling you things, about the War of Power, and me. He lies. You did love me. Until that yellow-haired trollop Ilyena stole you." For an instant, rage made her face a contorted mask; he did not think she was even aware of it. "Did you know that Asmodean severed his own mother? What they call stilling, now. Severed her, and let Myrddraal drag her away screaming. Can you trust a man like that?"

Rand laughed aloud. "After I caught him, you helped trap him so he had to teach me. And now you say I cannot trust him?"

"For teaching." She sniffed dismissively. "He will do that because he knows his lot is cast with you for good. Even if he managed to convince the others that he has been a prisoner, they would still tear him apart, and he knows it. The weakest dog in the pack often suffers that fate. Besides, I watch his dreams on occasion. He dreams of you triumphing over the Great Lord and putting him up beside you on high. Sometimes he dreams of me." Her smile said those dreams were pleasant for her, but not so for Asmodean. "But he will try to turn you against me."

"Why are you here?" he demanded. Turn against her? No doubt she was full of the Power right that moment, ready to shield him if she even suspected he meant to try anything. She had done it before, with humiliating ease.

"I like you like this. Arrogant and proud, full of your own strength."

Once she had said that she liked him unsure, that Lews Therin had been too arrogant. "Why are you here?"

"Rahvin sent the Darkhounds after you tonight," she said calmly, folding her hands at her waist. "I would have come sooner, to help you, but I cannot let the others know I am on your side yet."

On his side. One of the Forsaken loved him, or rather the man he had been three thousand years ago, and all she wanted was for him to give his soul to the Shadow and rule the world with her. Or a step below her, at least. That, and try to replace both the Dark One and the Creator. Was she completely mad? Or could the power of those two huge sa'angreal really be as great as she claimed? That was a direction he did not want his thoughts to take.

"Why would Rahvin choose now to attack me? Asmodean says he looks to his own interests, that he'll sit to one side even in the Last Battle, if he can, and wait for the Dark One to destroy me. Why not Sammael, or Demandred? Asmodean says they hate me." Not me. They hate Lews Therin. But to the Forsaken, that was the same thing. Please, Light, I am Rand al'Thor. He pushed away a sudden memory of this woman in his arms, both of them young and just learning what they could do with the Power. I am Rand al'Thor! "Why not Semirhage, or Moghedien, or Graen—?" So, this is well before Rand has any real concept of Lews Therin "talking" to him, and already it's extremely clear that Rand has no intention of accepting Lews Therin's memories as being his own memories. He knows that he's the Dragon Reborn, and he's accepted that because the world will die if he doesn't accept it. But there's nothing forcing him to accept Lews Therin's memories as his own, so why would he?

The most obvious "gradual" progression I see is the progression where Rand convinces himself that Lews Therin is really another person, and "there". The memories are pretty abundant early on (though of course they accumulate over the series), and Lews Therin even appears to try to take over as early as The Fires of Heaven (in Tel'aran'rhiod), but Rand spends all of Lord of Chaos building the "Lews Therin" personality.

The second piece of evidence is the fact that the LTT voice picks up where he left off: incinerating himself to create Dragonmount. Technically, the Lews Therin voice "picks up" making an idle comment about how when Ilyena was angry with herself, she never took it out on him. The moaning about her doesn't start until Rand remembers who Ilyena was. There is no suicide attempt until Knife of Dreams, and even then, Lews Therin doesn't do it (by all appearances, he could have, because Rand had no control over the Power, but for some reason he waited for Rand to talk him out of it).

So, I think that the "Lews Therin" that talks to Rand is just Rand talking to himself. Most of the memories come to Rand directly, and the voice doesn't do much but a) express the more inconvenient aspects of Lews Therin's memories, such as the moaning about Ilyena, b) express Rand's own paranoia about Aes Sedai and Asha'man, specifically Taim and his cronies, c) express the thoughts at the edge of Rand's consciousness, such as when Lews Therin senses the Gray Man in Lord of Chaos or recognizes the "other man", and d) express Rand's own thoughts and emotions (they often appear to mirror each other), sometimes philosophical reflection.

I think that Rand's assumptions about the nature of Lews Therin are a red herring, and Birgitte is the example of the soul with integrated personalities, which Rand won't achieve until he accepts Lews Therin's memories as being his own, and stops fighting them - and that won't happen until he stops thinking about Lews Therin as a murdering madman. Admittedly, it's hard for Rand to look at Lews Therin any other way, since he is Lews Therin reborn, after all, and he happens to have a humongous guilt complex about what he did (which probably has a great deal to do with why Rand obsessively chants that list of dead woman constantly).

So, that's my thoughts on it for now. I have a lot more where that came from but I'm trying to give a concise summary of why I don't think Lews Therin is a sentient being.

Semirhage mentions that this sort of phenomenon -- previous incarnations manifesting in the minds of their current selves -- was known of in the Age of Legends, before the taint existed. Sure, but that doesn't mean that the taint is ruled out as a possible cause. In Rand's case it makes sense to assume that the taint was involved somehow because the memories seem to come to the surface in response to the huge amounts of tainted saidin that Rand channeled, with Callandor, and then when he shared the Choedan Kal with Asmodean. But really, the mechanism isn't all that important - it's not like we have a lot of details to work with, and it's not like any particular assumption about the mechanism has implications that are all that profound.

[Frenzy]

Semirhage mentions that this sort of phenomenon -- previous incarnations manifesting in the minds of their current selves -- was known of in the Age of Legends, before the taint existed.
True. But to take a real-world example: cancer existed before the advent of modern chemicals and radiation. Our invention and subsequent exposure of those environmental contaminants did not invent cancer, just new ways to get it.

[Frenzy]

Okay. I agree so far, to a point. I believe that the memories are re-emerging, and of course, Lews Therin's personality is a part of those memories.

.... I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself. The difference is that he's got past life memories and such to help build the illusion that he's talking to someone else, rather than talking to himself.
That seems an overly cumbersome distinction. (unique theory, though, so props there.) Why go through the trouble of having real memories, mannerisms, etc. and a fake voice?


The main reasons I believe this:

1. Birgitte shows us that the Hero soul has an over-arching personality that, in the afterlife, can remember all of its past lives and still retain a solid sense of individuality that is apparently consistent in each lifetime. Birgitte, despite all of her past life memories, is one person who is born again many times. Personality is shaped by the environment in which the incarnation is shaped, but the soul, I think, is the aspect of sentience, rather than the personality.
Birgitte shows us how it's supposed to work. The soul is born into an incarnation, lives, and dies. The soul goes back to t'a'r, and puts that life back up on a shelf (her metaphor, not mine). lather, rinse, repeat. Each book, or life, is separate and distinct. Sure, there may be some common themes (always an archer, always loves Gaidal, never channels... though that's a different theory), but that doesn't change how the progression goes.

more later, gotta go to work.

[Davian93]

I buy the Terez/Callandor side of this coin. I believe the memories are real but the personality/voice is a creation of Rand's subconscious to deal with those memories.

Its a subtle distinction but its one that makes sense...at least to me.

[Sarevok]

Haven't you guys/girls still not gotten enough of this subject?
*leaves thread*

[Terez]

That seems an overly cumbersome distinction. (unique theory, though, so props there.) Why go through the trouble of having real memories, mannerisms, etc. and a fake voice? Well, Rand can't actually fight the memories, so if you're talking about Rand, then he has no choice about the memories. They come whether or not he likes it (and the mannerisms, such as they are, along with it - but the mannerisms are as much in Rand's personality as in "Lews Therin's"). Anyway, the "fake voice" is just Rand's way of pretending that "I am not Lews Therin - I am Rand al'Thor!"

If you're talking about why RJ would go to the trouble, then I don't really know how to answer that question. To me, it makes the story much more interesting, especially since it's a counter-intuitive theory (Rand assumes that Lews Therin is talking to him, so we believe it right along with him).

Birgitte shows us how it's supposed to work. The soul is born into an incarnation, lives, and dies. The soul goes back to t'a'r, and puts that life back up on a shelf (her metaphor, not mine). lather, rinse, repeat. Agreed, except the bit about the shelf - she says that her past lives are "like books well-read". Maybe not much difference there, but whatever.

Each book, or life, is separate and distinct. Distinct to what extent, though? We don't have anything from Birgitte to suggest that what Rand believes (that Lews Therin is talking to him) is even possible.

Haven't you guys/girls still not gotten enough of this subject? No. Haven't you got enough of bitching about it? :p

[greatwolf]

I buy the Terez/Callandor side of this coin. I believe the memories are real but the personality/voice is a creation of Rand's subconscious to deal with those memories.

Its a subtle distinction but its one that makes sense...at least to me.

The theory admittedly has its merits, but I find it (like a lot of people here) too complex. And its got too many holes. It is TLish though:)

This is where we break off. I think that the voice talking to Rand is just his normal inner conversation, with the added complication that he believes he is talking to a real person rather than just talking to himself. In other words, he's like a normal crazy guy that talks to himself. The difference is that he's got past life memories and such to help build the illusion that he's talking to someone else, rather than talking to himself.

It is somewhat possible this may be the case. But the psychology for one is wrong. Rj's statement is that Rand has two personalities. Your theory means that one personality is a made up one, hence not really a personality at all.

It would have worked if Rj said Rand had a multiple personality disorder or even that he has one and a a half personalities.

Also, Birgitte's case is one of different memories of different lifetimes. But Rand has memories from a specific lifetime of LTT"s. If the taint was the source of those memories, it could not be so precisely focused on a particular set of memories. Rand would have memories from all of LTT's past lives.Such precision means human guidance is involved, rather a natural process.


Rand's memories apparently predate any channeling that he did, and thus the taint that would come form channeling. For example :

CHAPTER 9 - Tellings of the wheel

**It was not the valley itself that sapped his strength and filled the empty spaces left with helplessness. From the center of the furious vapors a mountain thrust upward, a mountain taller than any he had ever seen in the Mountains of Mist, a mountain as black as the loss of all hope. That bleak stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens, was the source of his desolation. He had never seen it before, but he knew it. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there. He knew it was there. **

Again, there is no precedent for this. No record of men who can channel hearing of past lives BEFORE going mad (or after for that matter) and none of the ashaman have shown even the slightest similarity.

Then there's cadsuanne and co, who have been watchers over Rand. Everyone is watching and wondering when he'll go mad, and yet they haven't seen anything! He has been delved often (and i can't believe they wouldn't be looking for signs of madness) and nothing found!

There just isn't enough credit to back the thoery. And a lot to sink it. But if you like it... Heck we all love our kids:)

[Terez]

I was actually in the mood to practice piano last night, and that's a rare opportunity I can't pass up on, so now I'll go back and give a few quotes for stuff I mentioned earlier, since I know you're rusty and I don't want to make you work too hard.

First off, I mentioned that Rand has some pretty kickass detailed memories of all thirteen Forsaken in Lord of Chaos chapter 2. Rand sort of gets acquainted with the idea of having Lews Therin in his head over the course of The Fires of Heaven (since he first recognizes it in the quote I gave earlier, in chapter 6), so this is still pretty early on in the development of Rand's characterization of Lews Therin:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

"Whatever your crimes are, Taim, they pale beside the Forsaken’s. Have you ever tortured an entire city, made thousands of people assist in breaking each other slowly, in breaking their own loved ones? Semirhage did that, for no more reason than that she could, to prove she could, for the pleasure of it. Have you murdered children? Graendal did. She called it kindness, so they would not suffer after she enslaved their parents and carried them away." He just hoped the other Saldaeans were listening half as closely as Taim; the man had actually leaned forward slightly in interest. He hoped they did not ask too many questions about where all this came from. "Have you given people to Trollocs to eat? All the Forsaken did – prisoners who would not turn always went to the Trollocs, if they weren’t murdered out of hand – but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the Shadow, and every man, woman and child went into Trolloc bellies. Mesaana set up schools in the territory she controlled, schools where children and young people were taught the glories of the Dark One, taught to kill their friends who didn’t learn well enough or fast enough. I could go on. I could start from the beginning of the list and go through all thirteen names, adding a hundred crimes as bad to every name. Whatever you’ve done, it doesn’t rank with that. And now you’ve come to accept my pardon, to walk in the Light and submit to me, to battle the Dark One as hard as you ever battled anyone. The Forsaken are reeling; I mean to hunt them all down, eradicate them. And you will help me. For that, you’ve earned your pardon. I tell you true, you’ll probably earn it a hundred times over again before the Last Battle is done."

At last he felt Bashere’s arm relax, felt the man’s sword sliding back into its scabbard. Rand barely stopped himself from exhaling in relief. "I don’t see any reason to guard him so closely now. Put up your swords."

Slowly, Tumad and the others began sheathing their blades. Slowly, but they were doing it. Then Taim spoke.

"Submit? I had thought more of a compact between us." The other Saldaeans tensed; Bashere was still behind Rand, but Rand could feel him stiffening. The Maidens did not move a muscle, except that Jalani’s hand twitched toward her veil. Taim tilted his head, unaware. "I would be the lesser partner, of course, yet I have had years more than you to study the Power. There is much I could teach you."

Rage rose up in Rand till his vision filmed red. He had spoken of things he should have no knowledge of, had probably birthed a dozen rumors about himself and the Forsaken, all to make this fellow’s deeds seem less dark, and the man had the audacity to speak of compacts? Lews Therin raved in his head. Kill him! Kill him now! Kill him! For once Rand did not bother to quell the voice. "No compact!" he growled. "No partners! I am the Dragon Reborn, Taim! Me! If you have knowledge I can make use of, I will, but you will go where I say, do as I say, when I say." This one is a pretty nifty quote. It makes it pretty clear that Rand had some pretty extensive knowledge about the Forsaken at his fingertips, and it comes across very much as if Rand dipped into those memories of his own free will and spoke of the Forsaken consciously, realizing where the memories were coming from the whole time.

It's also a nifty quote because it's the birth of a notorious Lews Therin character trait - the murdering madman who wants to kill Taim (and later, to a lesser extent, Taim's cronies, and to an even lesser extent, any man that channels). And it raises all sorts of interesting questions, especially being set alongside an example of how Rand actually remembers Lews Therin's memories, directly. Some of the questions it raises:

1. Does Rand want to kill Taim? Well, of course he does. It's Rand, after all, whose vision went red with rage when Taim (Rand's thoughts) had the audacity to speak of compacts. So, do we have a murdering madman in Rand's head who wants to take over and kill Taim, or do we just have Rand suppressing his violent urges via Lews Therin raving in his head?

2. Did Lews Therin "take over" in this scene? Rand's actions, especially in speaking to Taim, are totally in character with what we would expect from Lews Therin - Rand's actions, not those of "Lews Therin" the murdering madman. But did Lews Therin take over? It seems to me to be because Rand is accepting the memories (and everyone seems to forget that there are hundreds of years' worth of memories and experience to Lews Therin before we get to that fateful day that's got Rand so angsty). Rand is in prime Lews Therin element in this scene, in his initial presentation to Taim (featuring the Forsaken memories and a great deal of benevolent dictator grandstanding), and in his reaction to Taim's response. Meanwhile, Lews Therin is "raving" in his head about killing Taim, which is something that Rand undeniably would like to do.

So, it definitely doesn't seem to be so simple as Rand=Rand and Lews Therin=Lews Therin. Rand would like for it to be that simple, but it just isn't. Maybe I should have given this quote first, since it's the Lews Therin incident directly preceding the above instance, but we've still got Rand in "I am not Lews Therin I am Rand al'Thor" mode:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

They halted a few paces before him at a gesture from Tumad. Rand opened his mouth, but before he could speak, Lews Therin rose up in a frenzy in his head. Sammael and Demandred hated me, whatever honors I gave them. The more honors, the worse the hate, until they sold their souls and went over. Demandred especially. I should have killed him! I should have killed them all! Scorched the earth to kill them all! Scorch the earth!

Face frozen, Rand fought for his own mind. I am Rand al’Thor. Rand al’Thor! I never knew Sammael or Demandred or any of them! The Light burn me, I am Rand al’Thor! Like a faint echo, one more thought came from elsewhere. The Light burn me. It sounded like a plea. Then Lews Therin was gone, driven back into whatever shadows he lived in. o look, Frenzy has a Lews Therin too! :D

Anyway, the point being, Rand is the one fighting to keep himself separate from Lews Therin, and the bolded bit brings us back to WHY Rand's so reluctant to be associated with the man. As if RJ doesn't tell us over and over and over again why Rand doesn't want to be associated with the KINSLAYER. I mean, raise your hand if you think that would be cool, to be the KINSLAYER...

I like giving this quote and I give it a lot but I'll give it again:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn

"The Prophecies must be fulfilled. We let you walk free, knowing what you are, because otherwise the world we know will die, and the Dark One will cover the earth with fire and death. Mark me, not all Aes Sedai feel the same. There are some here in Fal Dara who would strike you down if they knew a tenth of what you are, and feel no more remorse than for gutting a fish. But then, there are men who've no doubt laughed with you who would do the same, if they knew. Have a care, Rand al'Thor, Dragon Reborn."

He looked at each of them in turn. Your Prophecies are no part of me. They returned his gaze so calmly it was hard to believe they were trying to convince him he was the most hated, the most feared man in the history of the world. He had gone right through fear and come out the other side in some place cold. Anger was all that kept him warm. They could gentle him, or burn him to a crisp where he stood, and he no longer cared. Why would Rand accept that? He doesn't want to be a murdering madman. In fact, he was scared of becoming one before they told him he was the Dragon Reborn, just because he knew the fate of men who can channel. But Lews Therin Kinslayer was the most notorious out of all of them, the one held responsible for the fate of men such as himself in the first place. Like Rand said in book 1 chapter 3 (not getting fancy), "What kind of need would be great enough that we'd want the Dragon to save us from it?"

All this to the point that it would be extremely strange if Rand hadn't made a supreme effort to disassociate himself from Lews Therin's memories.

I have to go accompany a voice lesson soon so I don't want to get into any of the other finer details just yet, but later I'd like to get into some quotes of that gradual progression that we were discussing earlier - the progression that I believe to be Rand's construction of this persona, primarily to bear the guilt and the pain of Lews Therin's crimes. I think the persona ends up being a fair expression of Rand's subconscious, or mid-level conscious thought, including both the inconvenient tendencies of Lews Therin and the inconvenient tendencies of Rand al'Thor.

[Terez]

The theory admittedly has its merits, but I find it (like a lot of people here) too complex. That's not surprising, dear.

*pats vardene on head*

Rj's statement is that Rand has two personalities. Your theory means that one personality is a made up one, hence not really a personality at all.

It would have worked if Rj said Rand had a multiple personality disorder or even that he has one and a a half personalities. If you'll read the quotes I gave in the post above, it might make more sense to you. Rand's personality is real and so is Lews Therin's, and Rand's own actions are influenced by Lews Therin's memories, to the point that Rand's personality becomes very similar to Lews Therin's. This actually begins in The Shadow Rising, and it's pretty hard core, but Rand doesn't recognize it till the next book. But "Lews Therin", the murdering madman in Rand's head, ≠ the real Lews Therin. It's just Rand talking to himself.

Also, Birgitte's case is one of different memories of different lifetimes. But Rand has memories from a specific lifetime of LTT"s. If the taint was the source of those memories, it could not be so precisely focused on a particular set of memories. Rand would have memories from all of LTT's past lives.Such precision means human guidance is involved, rather a natural process. You're thinking about it wrong. Birgitte is naturally losing her memories of past lives. She's losing the oldest ones first. This shouldn't come as a surprise to you, considering that it's generally more difficult to remember older memories than more recent ones. Rand is Birgitte in reverse - he started out with no past life memories, and he's gaining the most recent ones: Lews Therin's memories.

Rand's memories apparently predate any channeling that he did, and thus the taint that would come form channeling. Not to any great extent. Even Perrin has had thoughts that might well be past life memories, in dreams. Considering the fact that dreams are strange places where strange things happen, it's not all that surprising that Rand had a vague memory from Lews Therin's life in a dream. It's nothing compared to the flood that comes later after the massive taint intake. It's like the difference in a flood gate with a leak and an exploding floodgate.

No record of men who can channel hearing of past lives BEFORE going mad (or after for that matter) and none of the ashaman have shown even the slightest similarity. No one else has channeled anywhere near the amount of the taint that Rand has. And who says Rand's not mad yet? He's not insane - not yet - but he's certainly not mentally healthy. But it's possible that he's managed to avoid going mad because the taint affected him in other ways. Like by weakening the barrier that blocks his past life memories...

Then there's cadsuanne and co, who have been watchers over Rand. Everyone is watching and wondering when he'll go mad, and yet they haven't seen anything! His friends have - Mat and Egwene and others have had the pleasure of watching Rand talk to Lews Therin out loud, which he almost never realizes he's doing.

He has been delved often (and i can't believe they wouldn't be looking for signs of madness) and nothing found! Show me an instance in the series of someone being Healed of mental illness by a Third Ager. It's simply not done.

[Yellowbeard]

i guess this debate is a horse that has been flogged as much as who killed asmodean.

i personally never really thought of it as is LTT real or not...not sure if this will make sense to others though.

i think it obvious that the LTT memories are a result of the taint sickness. i can't say whether it's because of the aforementioned "barrier degradation" theory, but to me the specific mechanism isn't as important. the basic premise is a pretty simple cause and effect issue. the taint sickness is the cause and Rand's AoL/LTT memories are the effect.

Prior to channeling, Rand grew up and developed his personality. I think it's an easy leap of thought that when the LTT memories started coming to Rand, that his insistence that he is Rand and not LTT, general trauma, and the traumatic nature of the LTT memories, Rand's unconscious coping reaction was for his mind to take the LTT memories and coalesce them into a separate personality that manifests itself at the LTT voice in Rand's head.

The LTT personality is obviously not the original personality inhabiting Rand's mind and body, but I think it's been constructed by Rand's mind to be as real as the original Rand personality. If it wasn't as real, it wouldn't have been able to take over Rand's ability to channel as it did in KoD during the Trolloc attack on the farm.

Now, I also doubt whether the LTT personality *is* the exact LTT personality from the AoL. Has to do with the memories. Rand's mind created it from the available memories, but if ALL of the LTT/AoL memories haven't come to Rand, then Rand's mind is creating the LTT personality from an incomplete set of files basically. It could only be the real LTT from the AoL if EVERYTHING from LTT's AoL memories has come thru and been used by Rand's mind to create the LTT personality we are debating.

So I guess, to summarize, it's as real a personality as Rand's original, but not the exact LTT personality from the AoL's because it probably doesn't have the complete LTT AoL life memory set to base the personality on.

JMHO.

[Enigma]

His friends have - Mat and Egwene and others have had the pleasure of watching Rand talk to Lews Therin out loud, which he almost never realizes he's doing..

Normally I dont take a side in the "is LTT real arguement?" as the thoerys are very cool, very complicated but can't really be proved either way until the last book. RJ did say in an interview he gave in Trinity College in Dublin that Rand's madness might not be the sort that everyone is looking for and could be a lot more subtle.

Show me an instance in the series of someone being Healed of mental illness by a Third Ager. It's simply not done.

Going by Ishamael's comments to LTT in the prologue of TEotW this was very rear even in the Age of Legends

[Terez]

Normally I dont take a side in the "is LTT real arguement?" as the thoerys are very cool, very complicated but can't really be proved either way until the last book. To me, it's not so much about proving the theory as opening the discussion. We know that RJ intended for there to be more than one way to look at the Lews Therin phenomenon - why not consider the implications of the options?

RJ did say in an interview he gave in Trinity College in Dublin that Rand's madness might not be the sort that everyone is looking for and could be a lot more subtle. Yeah, I like quoting that one:


Trinity College, Dublin - November 1993 (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Speech_at_Trinity_College_in_Dublin_November_1993)

(RJ) raised the point that Rand's creeping insanity may manifest in much more subtle ways than the people of Randland expect, which leads one to wonder about Rand's increasing withdrawal and possible megalomania. The Fires of Heaven and Lord of Chaos, the two primary books in the development of the Lews Therin phenomenon. - Terez] I like this one too:

Thus Spake The Creator - Rand al'Thor (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator-rand.htm)

Q: Out of all the 'evil' characters you've created in the 8, now 9 books of the Wheel of Time series, which character is the most dangerous to Rand?

RJ: Hmmm. Actually, I think the most dangerous character to Rand is Rand -- but among the others, each of them has their own particular danger toward Rand. :D

Going by Ishamael's comments to LTT in the prologue of TEotW this was very rear even in the Age of Legends Indeed.

[Marie Curie 7]

The theory admittedly has its merits, but I find it (like a lot of people here) too complex.

I always find it amusing when people complain that the construct theory is "too complex". It always makes me think of this quote from RJ:


Letter to Tom McCormick from RJ - December 1993

One thing -- don't think you've reached bottom in your digging. I tried to make the books fairly simple on the surface, and quite complex underneath. You've dug up a number of points that I thought I had buried well enough that they wouldn't come to light for some time yet (don't expect me to say which ones), and you've also dug up one or two that I never buried in the first place (no hints there, either). Jordan's Law, I think, can better be stated along these lines: "Ah, you think you know how the game goes now? Very good, gentlemen, what say we increase the bets just to make it interesting?"

[Sodas]

Letter to Tom McCormick from RJ - December 1993

One thing -- don't think you've reached bottom in your digging. I tried to make the books fairly simple on the surface, and quite complex underneath. You've dug up a number of points that I thought I had buried well enough that they wouldn't come to light for some time yet (don't expect me to say which ones), and you've also dug up one or two that I never buried in the first place (no hints there, either). Jordan's Law, I think, can better be stated along these lines: "Ah, you think you know how the game goes now? Very good, gentlemen, what say we increase the bets just to make it interesting?"

Fixed it for you :D

[Terez]

Too bad for you, Sodas:


Lord of Chaos book tour Fall 1994 - Dennis reporting (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Stories_from_RJ%27s_LOC_signing_tour%2C_Fall_1994)


I asked him what we had picked up on that he thought we wouldn't, and he wouldn't tell me. He did say that the two ways of looking at the Rand/Lews Therin thing (Lews Therin causing Rand's madness/Lews Therin a manifestation of Rand's madness) was intentional. Wouldn't tell me which one it was though....
We know he buried that one. ;)

[Frenzy]

I was actually in the mood to practice piano last night, and that's a rare opportunity I can't pass up on, so now I'll go back and give a few quotes for stuff I mentioned earlier, since I know you're rusty and I don't want to make you work too hard.
aren't you sweet. i actually feel like sketching. i sketched a pic of The Brain today in a training class, and have an idea for a Warhol-esque homage to super-villains brewing in my brain. Hard to debate when distracted.
First off, I mentioned that Rand has some pretty kickass detailed memories of all thirteen Forsaken in Lord of Chaos chapter 2. Rand sort of gets acquainted with the idea of having Lews Therin in his head over the course of The Fires of Heaven (since he first recognizes it in the quote I gave earlier, in chapter 6), so this is still pretty early on in the development of Rand's characterization of Lews Therin:
if LoC is early in LTT's development, then it's a little late for him to be a coping mechanism to deal with being the most hated man in Wot-dom. Rand pretty-much accepted his Dragon Reborn-ness in tSR and tFoH.
This one is a pretty nifty quote. It makes it pretty clear that Rand had some pretty extensive knowledge about the Forsaken at his fingertips, and it comes across very much as if Rand dipped into those memories of his own free will and spoke of the Forsaken consciously, realizing where the memories were coming from the whole time.
counter-quotes:
Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes
He hesitated, heron-branded palm stroking his long sword hilt. He had no idea what a gholam was. Lews Therin had not stirred, but he knew that was the source of the name. Bits and pieces sometimes drifted across whatever thin barrier lay between him and that voice, and became part of Rand's memories, usually without anything to explain them. It happened more often, lately.

Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires
The wine punch tasted of plums. Rand could remember fat sweet plums from the orchards across the river when he was young, climbing the trees to pick them himself.... Tilting his head back, he drained the goblet. There were plum trees in the Two Rivers, but no orchards of them, and certainly not across any river. Keep your bloody memories to yourself, he snarled at Lews Therin. The man in his head laughed at something, giggling quietly to himself.
Bolded bits show that the memories are drifting across the tattered barrier that separates Rand's current life from Lews Therin's. That's happening on it's own, as the italicized bit shows.

look, Frenzy has a Lews Therin too! :D
yah, i keep him in a jar on my desk, next to the voodoo doll, the finger traps, and the maple syrup.
Anyway, the point being, Rand is the one fighting to keep himself separate from Lews Therin, and the bolded bit brings us back to WHY Rand's so reluctant to be associated with the man. As if RJ doesn't tell us over and over and over again why Rand doesn't want to be associated with the KINSLAYER. I mean, raise your hand if you think that would be cool, to be the KINSLAYER...
since you asked...
Fires of Heaven CHAPTER: 56 - Glowing Embers
Bashere quirked an eyebrow. “Should I hail King Rand of Andor, then?” Rand leaned forward angrily. “Andor has always had a queen, and it still does. Elayne was Daughter-Heir. With her mother dead, she is queen. Maybe she has to be crowned first-I don’t know the law-but she is queen as far as I am concerned. I am the Dragon Reborn. That is as much as I want, and more. What is it you want of me, Lord Bashere?”

Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival
"No compact!" he growled. "No partners! I am the Dragon Reborn, Taim! Me! ...

Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 33 - A Bath
"It is mine by right," he muttered each time, with his hand trembling just short of the figure. "Mine! I am the Dragon Reborn!"
I have to go accompany a voice lesson soon so I don't want to get into any of the other finer details just yet, but later I'd like to get into some quotes of that gradual progression that we were discussing earlier - the progression that I believe to be Rand's construction of this persona, primarily to bear the guilt and the pain of Lews Therin's crimes. I think the persona ends up being a fair expression of Rand's subconscious, or mid-level conscious thought, including both the inconvenient tendencies of Lews Therin and the inconvenient tendencies of Rand al'Thor.
ready when you are. But i must say, by KoD, LTT is a piss-poor coping mechanism. Memories and mannerisms are integrating, and LTT is more of a pain than a protection. if LTT is a construct, then Rand can't even do that right. :p

i'm not a psychologist. i'm more likely to point to Chekhov's gun as a reason LTT is real than to MPD sociopathy as a reason LTT is a construct.

[Terez]

aren't you sweet. I can pretend with the situation requires. :)

i actually feel like sketching. i sketched a pic of The Brain today in a training class, and have an idea for a Warhol-esque homage to super-villains brewing in my brain. Hard to debate when distracted. Well, the thread's not going anywhere any time soon, I don't think.

if LoC is early in LTT's development, then it's a little late for him to be a coping mechanism to deal with being the most hated man in Wot-dom. Rand pretty-much accepted his Dragon Reborn-ness in tSR and tFoH. This is a distinction I thought I made clear, but I realize now I talked more about it in the other thread than in this one. Rand has accepted that he is the Dragon Reborn since Callandor, if not since Falme, but he has only accepted it insofar as accepting the responsibilities of being the Dragon Reborn, and he only accepted that much because the Pattern made it clear that he was the one, and he knows the world will die without him. That's quite a different thing than accepting that he is Lews Therin. Sure, we all know that it amounts to the same thing, but Rand is in denial. And again, he's only denying that he is Lews Therin, not that he's the Dragon Reborn. He won't accept Lews Therin's memories as being his own.

Bolded bits show that the memories are drifting across the tattered barrier that separates Rand's current life from Lews Therin's. That's happening on it's own, as the italicized bit shows. Yup, not arguing that. The memories are coming across naturally, and so are the personality traits that come with them. Rand exhibits Lews Therin's personality traits actively, mixed in with his own personality. It's the voice, the illusion of Lews Therin being a separate, sentient person, that's a construct - not the memories.

i must say, by KoD, LTT is a piss-poor coping mechanism. Memories and mannerisms are integrating, and LTT is more of a pain than a protection. if LTT is a construct, then Rand can't even do that right. :p True. But it's not like Rand is consciously trying to construct a coping mechanism. He's just disassociating himself from Lews Therin. Since he's doing the job subconsciously for the most part, the result isn't exactly a product of artisanship.

[Sodas]

Bolded bits show that the memories are drifting across the tattered barrier that separates Rand's current life from Lews Therin's.
I disagree with the characterization that the barrier was "tattered." The barrier is thin, yes, but there is no description of wear or breakdown.

[greatwolf]

Rand's personality is real and so is Lews Therin's, and Rand's own actions are influenced by Lews Therin's memories, to the point that Rand's personality becomes very similar to Lews Therin's.


Both are real?

"Lews Therin", the murdering madman in Rand's head, ≠ the real Lews Therin. It's just Rand talking to himself.

Yup, go right ahead and confuse me (or is it issues ) some more. You're enjoying it.

Rand is Birgitte in reverse - he started out with no past life memories, and he's gaining the most recent ones: Lews Therin's memories.


it's not all that surprising that Rand had a vague memory from Lews Therin's life in a dream.

:D

You really said that?

And who says Rand's not mad yet? He's not insane - not yet - but he's certainly not mentally healthy.

Yes, there is a difference between a neurosis (not mad) and a pyschosis (mad) but hearing a voice belongs in the psychotic group. It is one of the cardinal manifestations. Another is cognitive impairment.

You can't say Rand is hearing voices or making up a voice in his head without him being mad first. Some happen suddenly and others are more gradual, but abnormal behaviour occurs before psychosis sets in.

If you say Rand is only neurotic, then he can't be making up a voice in his head. He isn't mad enough for that. These distinctions have been very clear in psychiatry for ages.

In psychology, personality is a collection of emotional, thought and behavioral patterns unique to a person that is consistent over time.

[Terez]

Both are real? In the sense that I said, yes. Do you understand the difference yet? Lews Therin really did live, and Rand really does have his memories, which includes his real personality. But Lews Therin is not a sentient being in his head, talking to him.

You can't say Rand is hearing voices or making up a voice in his head without him being mad first. Some happen suddenly and others are more gradual, but abnormal behaviour occurs before psychosis sets in. In Rand's case, it's abnormal circumstances, rather than abnormal behavior, that causes the "voice" - the abnormal circumstances being the fact that he's getting Lews Therin's memories. This, of course, causes him to worry that he's going insane, but the real cause of the "voice" is his denial that Lews Therin's memories are his own. So the "voice" and the psychosis develop together. Like Frenzy said, it's not a very pat coping mechanism - it's just what he came up with on the fly to assist him in his denial.

Rand's situation is very similar to a lot of real world disorders, but ultimately it's a different thing altogether, because of the past life memories (not to mention the notorious reputation of his past life).

[greatwolf]

In Rand's case, it's abnormal circumstances, rather than abnormal behavior, that causes the "voice" - the abnormal circumstances being the fact that he's getting Lews Therin's memories. This, of course, causes him to worry that he's going insane, but the real cause of the "voice" is his denial that Lews Therin's memories are his own. So the "voice" and the psychosis develop together.

Abnormal circumstances is enough to let him off the hook Terez. A jilted woman may remain indoors and have poor work reviews, but that doesn't mean they are psychotic. You've just given Rand a clean bill yourself.

Its abnormal behaviour that counts, not circumstances if you want to prove psychosis. Furthermore, you'd have to prove loss of cognitive function as well or else the abnormal behaviour becomes merely "eccentric".

As for some of RJ's comments, you must understand that "Prophesy" or people claiming to hear voices has always been topical in psychiatry. The question is whether to accept them as normal or psychotic. This is where the other parameters often come in. You don't commit a man to an asylum when he claim to hear God (for example), unless he shows other abnormal behaviour and loss of cognitive ability.

So I'm not surprised that RJ played on this, but that doesn't mean the voice is not that of a real LTT.

[Terez]

Abnormal circumstances is enough to let him off the hook Terez. A jilted woman may remain indoors and have poor work reviews, but that doesn't mean they are psychotic. You've just given Rand a clean bill yourself. No I haven't. But it definitely isn't all that clear what, exactly, is driving Rand crazy. It's a lot of things. Lews Therin has a lot to do with it. It's his denial that created that situation, but the alternative (accepting the guilt/pain of Lews Therin's crimes) is worse, because it would probably lead to suicide (again). Then, we have to consider that he channeled a fuckton of the taint, much of it through Callandor, which magnifies the taint on top of being a really powerful sa'angreal and therefore allowing exponential amounts of the taint in the first place. It's got to add up somehow or another. Rand's responsibilities are driving him crazy. His paranoia is driving him crazy. Who knows what when and where?

Its abnormal behaviour that counts, not circumstances if you want to prove psychosis. Furthermore, you'd have to prove loss of cognitive function as well or else the abnormal behaviour becomes merely "eccentric". As I already said, I'm not trying to prove much of anything, especially not "psychosis". Rand's condition is unique to him, and it should be analyzed as such, not by some arbitrary guidelines. That he is not mentally healthy is perfectly clear - even the prophecies make that much clear: he's got to fix it before the Last Battle or he won't win. I'm not really interested in attaching labels to Rand's behavior - I'm interested in figuring out exactly what's going on inside that little head of his. ;) It's more about cause and effect than placing his behavior into categories of real world psychological disorders (which I think is a mistake to even attempt on the large scale, because there's nothing in the real world like Rand).

[OutFoxed]

*written hastily, en passant*
Amnesia, pure and simple. Pick “retrograde”, “antegrade”, “traumatic induced”, “organic”, or any other form you wish, but it’s there.

The Wheel imposes it on every soul upon reincarnation. This occurs most especially with HH for obvious reasons (ref. Birgitte’s collywobbles about remembering who she is). In Rand’s case, for whatever reason, he’s beginning to remember. He “accepts” that he’s the Dragon Reborn, in that he has accepted the role as something dumped on him, against his will. But, his refusal to acknowledge that he actually is LTT reborn keeps him from accepting that other “personality’ [“one soul, two personalities”] or set of memories, etc. as much him as his own hand.

This schism, perhaps amplified/aggravated by the effects of the DO’s taint, keeps him from sublimating and integrating the two portions, so the “LTT” part remains discreet. He’s talking to himself, but he refuses to believe it.

The memories are real, because they are Rand’s from when he was LTT. The personality traits/quirks are real because they are Rand’s from when he was LTT. They are as real as his strength in the OP because it is LTT’s just as much as Rand’s. They are just as real as the strength of his ta’verenness, because it is LTT’s just as much as Rand’s. One cannot have only part of LTT. RJ’s reincarnation milieu doesn’t work that way. If you get some, you get the rest. One has all of LTT or none of him. And if one piece of LTT is real, then all of it is. All of LTT has been reborn, not just part. Rand didn’t make any of it up. He is LTT, it toto.

[greatwolf]

the alternative (accepting the guilt/pain of Lews Therin's crimes) is worse, because it would probably lead to suicide (again)

Accept he is LTT? If you remember accurately, Rand has gone through several phases. One phase he thought he and LTT where separate individuals, but Cadsuane came in and taunted him with the voice in his head, equating it to madness. Yet cadsuane herself left him apparently satisfied that he was able to hold on. We don't know how she knew, perhaps a terangreal.

But Min then comes a little later with the viewing of Rand and someone else merging. Rand's reaction - relief - is further proof he hasn't gone over the edge. But it is this viewing that allows Rand to accept LTT in his head as a separate person. While the viewing may have been referring to the later balefire incident with Moridin, it is equally valid for the situation with LTT and in fact likely refers to both as prophecy often does.

So I see no reason for Rand to feel guilty. Or accept LTT's actions as his. He has been told LTT is a separate real person in his head by an authority he trusts completely.


Then, we have to consider that he channeled a fuckton of the taint, much of it through Callandor, which magnifies the taint on top of being a really powerful sa'angreal

At first I thought you meant the event that created DM. I wonder still how much of the taint he pulled in with that stunt. But does callandor magnify the taint? or just the effect? I don't have the book here.

Rand's responsibilities are driving him crazy. His paranoia is driving him crazy. Who knows what when and where?

Yes there's an awful lot of pressure on him, and that's exactly why Cadsuane keeps on at him about even the strongest steel can shatter with enough pressure. To keep him from crossing over the edge.

You use the word crazy in such a loose manner that it makes your statements ambiguous. Its better to say neurotic or psychotic. Or if you prefer, you could use socially maladjusted in place of neurosis. Mad and crazy are often taken to mean psychotic.

One cannot have only part of LTT. RJ’s reincarnation milieu doesn’t work that way. If you get some, you get the rest. One has all of LTT or none of him. And if one piece of LTT is real, then all of it is. All of LTT has been reborn, not just part. Rand didn’t make any of it up. He is LTT, it toto.

Pardon me, but you seem to be trying to say something but I don't get the specifics. A lot of people equate person = personality. So some will read RJ's statement to mean Rand has two persons with one soul while some could say RJ's talking about a split personality disorder.

However, my point is that there isn't enough in the series to show that Rand has gone pyscho. If he hasn't, then we can not take the step of assuming he is making up a voice in his head because that stage only follows the onset of psychosis.

[Weird Harold]

...Mad and crazy are often taken to mean psychotic.

...If he hasn't, then we can not take the step of assuming he is making up a voice in his head because that stage only follows the onset of psychosis.

IF RJ had a background in psychology/psyciatry, the official distinctions might be relevant. Instead, RJ often refered to "Rand's Madness" with regard to the question of LTT's reality.

Is LTT real or is he Memorex? If we can't tell the difference, does it really matter?

Personally I think he's a reconstruction built by Rand's subconscious in a fictional coping mechanism derived from a co-mingling of a layman's understandings of MPD, DID and PTSD.

Just exactly why Rand is gaining access to past life memories is another question and the Taint is as good as any explanation.

One thing to consider, is that perhaps, not all of the past life memories are from LTT -- Rand (and therefore we) have no way to distinguish past life memories or date them if they predate the drilling of the Bore, so any anomalous memories would get assigned to the one past life that Rand "knows" is there.

Obviously the majority of past life memories are from near the end of LTT's life, but how do we possitively identify the generic memories of the AOL as LTT's?

[Marie Curie 7]

i have other evidence that pulls from the examples of Mat & Birgitte, but let's start simple.

I'd be interested in reading about your evidence for Lews Therin being real that is related to the examples of Mat and Birgitte.

[Terez]

I'd be interested in reading about your evidence for Lews Therin being real that is related to the examples of Mat and Birgitte.
hehe, I'm wondering if Frenzy is bored already. Here is one older thread (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9440?page=1) where she goes into it a bit with Callandor, but it's in the context of a lot of arguments that I don't make. Callandor's distinction on Lews Therin's personality not being "real" because Rand doesn't have all of Lews Therin's memories, for instance.

I'm more interested in arguing from Rand's motivations because it's one of the only ways to show that the construct theory is more likely than the "real" theory - more likely because it can be shown conclusively that Rand was predisposed to interpret Lews Therin's in the fashion that he did interpret them. It can't be shown conclusively that he in fact did create his alternate persona, but it can be shown that he had a strong motive to do so.

The prototype version of this discussion on Theoryland seems to have revolved around the one soul/two soul issue. I feel like Lews Therin being "real" in the sense that he's a separate, sentient being, doesn't make sense for the same reason that two souls didn't make sense. Which makes it pretty convenient that there is an alternate explanation that makes a lot of sense.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I feel like Lews Therin being "real" in the sense that he's a separate, sentient being, doesn't make sense for the same reason that two souls didn't make sense.How so?

The two soul idea does not make sense because that would be counter to RJ's whole cosmology, and it would remove the "Rand is the Dragon Reborn" idea too. Instead, Rand would be co-inhabiting his body with the Dragon Reborn (LTT's soul), who would be the real hero.

The "one soul, two personalities" idea however does not have any of these problems. This does have Rand as the reincarnation of the same soul that produced LTT in a previous Age. It means that Rand is just an ordinary reincarnation in one sense. However, he also has to face the fact that the previous incarnation (preincarnation) has not been stored in permanent storage, but is instead waking up and trying to lead yet another life with his body.

I do not see what big problem of the two soul idea would remain with the LTT is real one.

[Terez]

The "one soul, two personalities" idea however does not have any of these problems. This does have Rand as the reincarnation of the same soul that produced LTT in a previous Age. It means that Rand is just an ordinary reincarnation in one sense. However, he also has to face the fact that the previous incarnation (preincarnation) has not been stored in permanent storage, but is instead waking up and trying to lead yet another life with his body. The bolded bit is where I think you get off into "Rand's assumptions" territory.

RJ says that reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. Lews Therin's personality is an aspect of his memories, that Rand has had access to for some time now. None of that means that Lews Therin has a mind of his own and is trying to take over Rand's body.

I do not see what big problem of the two soul idea would remain with the LTT is real one. It's that multiplicity of consciousness. It doesn't make sense, not by anything in the series we've seen so far. Even conglomerates of two souls, such as Luc+Isam=Slayer and Fain+Mordeth=Fain have a singularity of consciousness that Rand does not appear to have with Lews Therin, and they are the same soul! By Birgitte, it doesn't make any sense. She's got multiple lives' worth of memories, and it's nearly impossible to imagine one of her lives duking it out with another over control of her body, or her mind. Sure, Birgitte's got an advantage over Rand in having come from the afterlife where having all those memories is natural, but no one ever said Rand didn't have good reasons for constructing the persona of "Lews Therin".

Lews Therin's personality started mixing with Rand's before Rand even realized he was remembering Lews Therin's life. It was already too late for Rand (if he ever had a hope) to try to keep Lews Therin separate from himself when he figured out what was going on. That didn't stop him from trying, though. :D

[Marie Curie 7]

hehe, I'm wondering if Frenzy is bored already. Here is one older thread (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9440?page=1) where she goes into it a bit with Callandor, but it's in the context of a lot of arguments that I don't make. Callandor's distinction on Lews Therin's personality not being "real" because Rand doesn't have all of Lews Therin's memories, for instance.

Yeah, I've read that older thread before. And I don't think that the argument about whether someone possesses all past-life memories or not is particularly relevant to whether Lews Therin is real or a construct, either. And that's why it would be nice to see what evidence there is from Mat and Birgitte that supports the theory that Lews Therin is real in the context of this discussion.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It's that multiplicity of consciousness. It doesn't make sense, not by anything in the series we've seen so far. Even conglomerates of two souls, such as Luc+Isam=Slayer and Fain+Mordeth=Fain have a singularity of consciousness that Rand does not appear to have with Lews Therin, and they are the same soul!I do not see what evidence there might be for a singularity of conscience in the Luc/Isam case. All I can see there is two consciousnesses which trade places and share memories. Possibly they're conscious at the same time, possibly not, that does not seem entirely clear. Only one of them at a time is directing the body. But there is definitely not one single consciousness at work in this case, there are two.

As for Padain Fain: gollum, gollum.
I do not think anything reasonable can be said about that case, because he has no truck with reason in the first place. For all we know, he has a couple of the voices of the Black Wind hitching a ride in the back of his head.

[Frenzy]

alright alright, i'll post something tonight when i get home. :)

Thanks for that old link, terez. if it's a me-Callandor debate, i'm sure it's full of piss & vinegar. Should be fun to read. (and obnoxiously long, if i remember Callandor)

[Terez]

Thanks for that old link, terez. if it's a me-Callandor debate, i'm sure it's full of piss & vinegar. Should be fun to read. (and obnoxiously long, if i remember Callandor)
Well, it might not actually be the best one to re-read - it's just one of the last Lews Therin threads that you actually posted on. There are a lot of them in the vicinity.

I do not see what evidence there might be for a singularity of conscience in the Luc/Isam case.
It's pretty clear from Slayer's thoughts that Luc and Isam do not talk to each other or fight each other for control of the body.

[Ishara]

No, but they do trade off - I wonder how?

I have nothing to add to the debate, it just sparked a thought...

[Crispin's Crispian]

No, but they do trade off - I wonder how?

I have nothing to add to the debate, it just sparked a thought...

It possibly relates to another thought I've had for a long time. How much of LTT's appearance as a separate sentient being is related to Rand's time in TAR "in the flesh?" The first instance appeares to have been at the end of TDR, fairly coincident with his use of Callandor. Then he jumps into TAR again in his fight with Rahvin in tFoH.

Did we see any marked increases in LTT's sentience in relation to those events?

[Terez]

It possibly relates to another thought I've had for a long time. How much of LTT's appearance as a separate sentient being is related to Rand's time in TAR "in the flesh?"
You might get a kick out of my first theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=51&theo=2219). That's the first real argument I had with Callandor...

No, but they do trade off - I wonder how?
Who knows? It seems to be pretty seamless. No battle of wills or anything. It's like Slayer sees himself as one person who is also two people. But it's not like we have many details to work with - whatever they've got going on, it's something Ishamael did, probably one of those things that has to be done at Shayol Ghul with the Dark One's help.

[Ishara]

Right. I mean it's clear that they trade off according to circumstances and convenience. We've seen that much, and there doesn't seem to be any resentment over the sharing...

I'm wondering though if Luc was a DF before it happened...not that it makes a difference, just an interesting side-thought.

Sorry to hijack.

[Terez]

Right. I mean it's clear that they trade off according to circumstances and convenience. We've seen that much, and there doesn't seem to be any resentment over the sharing...

I'm wondering though if Luc was a DF before it happened...not that it makes a difference, just an interesting side-thought.

Sorry to hijack.
It's all good; we can get back on topic. But my guess is that Luc wasn't a Darkfriend, and that Isam was - at least, their respective stories give that impression. Also, the Dark Prophecy seems to imply that one of the two lived, and the other died. So perhaps one soul was destroyed, and only the memories were made a part of Slayer - in that case, I'd guess that Isam was the one that died, since we've only seen Luc in the real world.

[Ishara]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Luc gets the Body and Isam gets TAR. Hopefully that's not a build-up for the Rand-Moridin collision. :mad:

[Terez]

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Luc gets the Body and Isam gets TAR. Hopefully that'sot abuild-up for the Rand-Moridin collision. :mad: RJ used pretty much the same words in the Luc/Slayer Dark Prophecy bit as he does in Min's vision of Rand and Moridin - one lives and the other dies. Only difference is, in the Dark Prophecy you get "but both are", and in Min's viewing you get "you seemed to merge", and then the bit about one of them dying. So, maybe Moridin plans on doing something with Rand and himself like was done with Luc/Slayer, and Alivia has to help Rand die so that he can avoid the merge.

The only weird bit about it is that their current link seems to have been accidental, having started with the balefire thing in Shadar Logoth, and Moridin appears to be as unhappy about it as Rand is. But, it also seems to fit in with Moridin's plans, which in his words is "playing both sides of the board". So, who knows? Maybe it started as an accident and then Moridin decided to capitalize on it since he had no choice but to deal with the negative elements of the link. His point of view where he's playing with Fisher Rand is in the prologue of The Path of Daggers, and the balefire incident was, of course, at the end of A Crown of Swords.

[Belazamon]

Alright, I really don't have the mental processing power at the moment to read through this whole thread, but I will say this - it's sort of nice to see that people are still arguing my point of view on this subject. ;)

[Frenzy]

so have you updated your factions yet?

[Belazamon]

so have you updated your factions yet?

I, um, don't think I can. I don't have a Premium Account any longer.

[Frenzy]

Yeah, I've read that older thread before. And I don't think that the argument about whether someone possesses all past-life memories or not is particularly relevant to whether Lews Therin is real or a construct, either. And that's why it would be nice to see what evidence there is from Mat and Birgitte that supports the theory that Lews Therin is real in the context of this discussion.
To keep it simple: Mat has bits & pieces of memories, along with skills and knowledge, from past lives. Sure, they're not his past lives, but i don't think that fact is relevant to this particular theory.

Birgitte has (had) entire lifetimes of memories in her head after Moghedien yanked her out of t'a'r. Different names, different languages, the works.

The difference between Mat and Birgitte, and Rand, is that Rand's past life is talking to him. and trying to take control. And actually does for a brief bit of KoD. Birgitte doesn't become Teadra or Maerion or any of her other past incarnations. She doesn't talk to her past selves, and they don't talk to her. Mat has bits and pieces of past lives, and while he sometimes vocalizes in the Old Tongue, it's his own thoughts that are coming out.

Rand's had mega-exposure to the Taint, which in my theory wears away the barrier that keeps soul incarnations separate. LTT wakes up, right where he left off, and now Rand's soul is trying to operate with two incarnations active.

[Terez]

I, um, don't think I can. I don't have a Premium Account any longer.
I've thought about starting a new one several times, and Callandor did too.

[Terez]

The difference between Mat and Birgitte, and Rand, is that Rand's past life is talking to him. and trying to take control. I think the difference between Rand and Birgitte is that Birgitte started out with all of her memories, while Rand started out without them. Birgitte is afraid of losing her memories; Rand is afraid of succumbing to Lews Therin's fate. So, Birgitte has no motive to separate her memories from various lives. Mat doesn't really come into that equation much, but it's interesting that Mat's memories are "seamlessly woven" into his own memories, while Rand has this...issue. Don't you think? I mean, Mat's memories are actually other men's memories:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 5 - A Different Dance

The music caught him up, missed notes and all, and the pattern dance, and memories floated in his head as they floated back and forth across the floor. In memory he was a head taller, with long golden mustaches and blue eyes. He wore a red-sashed coat of amber silk with a ruff of finest Barsine lace and yellow sapphire studs from Aramaelle on his chest, and he danced with a darkly beautiful emissary of the Atha’an Miere, the Sea Folk. The fine gold chain linking her nose ring to one of her multitude of earrings held tiny medallions that identified her as Wavemistress of Clan Shodin. He did not care how powerful she was; that was for the king to worry over, not a middling lord. She was beautiful and light in his arms, and they danced beneath the great crystal dome at the court of Shaemal, when all the world envied Coremanda’s splendor and might. Other memories flitted around the edges, sparking off bits of that remembered dance. The morrow would bring news of increasingly heavy Trolloc raids out of the Great Blight, and another month word that Barsine of the golden spires had been ravaged and burned and the Trolloc hordes were sweeping south. So would begin what later would be called the Trolloc Wars, though none gave it that name to begin, three hundred years and more of all but unbroken battle, blood, fire and ruin before the Trollocs were driven back, the Dreadlords hunted down. So would begin the fall of Coremanda, with all its wealth and power, and Essenia, with its philosophers and famed seats of learning, of Manetheren and Eharon and all of the Ten Nations, smashed even in victory to rubble from which other lands would rise, lands that barely remembered the Ten Nations as more than myths of a happier time. But that lay ahead, and he banished those memories in the pleasure of this one. Tonight he danced the pattern dance with...

He blinked, for an instant startled by sunlight streaming through the windows and the fair face beaming up at him through a sheen of perspiration. Very nearly he fumbled the complex interweaving of his feet with Betse’s as they whirled down the floor, but he caught himself before tripping her, the steps coming instinctively. This dance was his as surely as those memories were, borrowed or stolen, but so seamlessly woven into those he really had lived that he could no longer tell the difference without thinking. All his, now, filling holes in his own memories; he might as well have lived them all. Rand's memories are his own from a past life. Why do Rand's memories talk to him while Mat's and Birgitte's don't? Why is that Mat has to struggle to even tell the difference between the other men's memories and his own memories, while Rand seems to think that Lews Therin's memories are not actually his own? Cause they are his, just as much as Birgitte's past life memories are hers.

Here's a totally not-helpful quote, just for fun:

The Path of Daggers book tour 18/19 November 1998, Philadelphia - John Hamby reporting (http://linuxmafia.com/%7Epam/POD_signings.html#la)

Gender/soul rebirth he said is best illustrated by Mat and Birgitte. But he then said that there was more to it than that. Not sure what he meant exactly. Probably the point. :D

And actually does (take control) for a brief bit of KoD. Most real'ers would argue that Lews Therin "took control" in The Fires of Heaven, in Tel'aran'rhiod, and in Lord of Chaos with the seals, and later when Rand told Taim to hold as much of the Power as he could.

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes

"How strong are you?" Rand broke in. "Seize saidin. Do it. As much as you can hold."

For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no glow such as women could see around one another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate the farm and everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react?

Saidin, the sense of it, faded from Taim, and for the first time Rand realized that he himself was filled with the male half of the Source, a raging flood, every thread he could pull through the angreal in his pocket. Kill him, Lews Therin muttered. Kill him now! For a moment shock gripped Rand; the emptiness surrounding him wavered, saidin raged and swelled, and he barely released the Power before it could crush the Void and him both. Had he seized the Source or had Lews Therin? Kill him! Kill him!

In a fury, Rand screamed inside his head, Shut up! To his surprise, the other voice vanished.

Sweat rolled down his face, and he wiped it away with a hand that wanted to shake. He had grasped the Source himself; it had to have been so. A dead man’s voice could not have done it. Unconsciously, he had not been willing to trust Taim holding so much of saidin while he stood helpless. That was it. So, did Lews Therin take over there, or did Rand just react to Taim with a bit of paranoia, and then wonder if it was Lews Therin because Lews Therin is expressing his suppressed paranoia in his thoughts? That might sound convoluted to some, but I don't think it is, really. I think Rand had it right in that last paragraph, and he just allows his fear that he will become more and more like Lews Therin to lead him to believe that maybe Lews Therin could take over. At this point, they haven't even had a proper conversation yet (that doesn't happen until Rand's in the box at Dumai's Wells).

At this point he's already got the scene in Tel'aran'rhiod to bolster that fear (a simple matter of learning how to control Tel'aran'rhiod from Lews Therin memories and unconsciously using Lews Therin's features to fight Rahvin's trap as a result), and the bit with the seals (bit iffier, but could be several things, such as simply knowing from Lews Therin's point of view what went wrong at the Sealing, or simply being overwhelmed with the responsibility and wanting the Last Battle to be over and done with, or just a bit of taint madness creeping in, which would hardly be unprecedented at this stage in Rand's game, considering how much of the taint he's handled). Then there was the bit at the Battle of Cairhien where Rand became delirious after a day of strenuous channeling on top of him shutting his conscious thoughts off in an effort to shut out Lews Therin's memories - he falls into a delirious tirade about Sammael, straight from Lews Therin's memories obviously, and the next day he remembers it. Did Lews Therin take over there?

I obviously don't think he did, but that's just another incident to bolster Rand's fear that Lews Therin is going to "take over". It's amazing that it took him as long as he did to come to the point of the Shadowspawn attack, and unsurprising that Lews Therin's "takeover" was imperfect (as he had to "ask" for control of Rand's hands).

Birgitte doesn't become Teadra or Maerion or any of her other past incarnations. She doesn't talk to her past selves, and they don't talk to her. Mat has bits and pieces of past lives, and while he sometimes vocalizes in the Old Tongue, it's his own thoughts that are coming out.

Rand's had mega-exposure to the Taint, which in my theory wears away the barrier that keeps soul incarnations separate. LTT wakes up, right where he left off, and now Rand's soul is trying to operate with two incarnations active. I'm unsure as to why you believe these bits about Birgitte and Mat indicate that Lews Therin has "woken up" and is sentient. The only evidence I can see for that assumption is that Rand believes it. We know that Rand is getting past life memories, and we can compare his situation to Birgitte and to Mat in various ways, but I don't see anything with either Birgitte or Mat to indicate that it's even possible for memories of a past life, personality included or no, to be sentient.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I'm unsure as to why you believe these bits about Birgitte and Mat indicate that Lews Therin has "woken up" and is sentient. The only evidence I can see for that assumption is that Rand believes it. We know that Rand is getting past life memories, and we can compare his situation to Birgitte and to Mat in various ways, but I don't see anything with either Birgitte or Mat to indicate that it's even possible for memories of a past life, personality included or no, to be sentient.Well, another difference seems to be that LTT also believes it. And that's a difference which is definitely not present in either Mat's or Birgitte's case.

We have the claim, made in TEOTW (by Thom) and repeated in KOD (by Semirhage), that dead people can actually take over the living, which would only be possible if those dead people were sentient in some way. We also have heard both times that the result is almost invariably horrible, which is a good reason for Rand (and others) to worry about it.

We have the undisputed* fact that Rand's case is actually unique, so that limitations which apply to others may not be relevant with him.

* Well, as far as it goes. This is Theoryland, someone posted a "Mat is the DR" theory here.

[Terez]

Well, another difference seems to be that LTT also believes it. And that's a difference which is definitely not present in either Mat's or Birgitte's case. *shrug* It doesn't make much difference, and still doesn't have anything to do with Mat or Birgitte beyond the difference that they do not talk to their memories.

We have the claim, made in TEOTW (by Thom) and repeated in KOD (by Semirhage), that dead people can actually take over the living, which would only be possible if those dead people were sentient in some way. Problem is, Lews Therin wasn't dead. He was reborn as Rand. So, yet another red herring to back up Rand's delusions. Mordeth is your example of a dead person taking over a living person's body, except he didn't manage to take over cause Fain was not your average bear. Lews Therin and Rand are the same person, so it doesn't work the same way.

We also have heard both times that the result is almost invariably horrible, which is a good reason for Rand (and others) to worry about it. I'm still not sure why you're comparing what Thom said to what Semirhage said.

We have the undisputed* fact that Rand's case is actually unique, so that limitations which apply to others may not be relevant with him. Exactly. We have a wealth of detail in Rand's point of view to let us known what's going on.

[Bayle]

I have been a LONG time LTT is Sentient believer - Back on the old forums I used to argue for it - Now that I am back, and reading all of this:

I'm convinced otherwise. Nice arguing on both sides for sure, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that it is all a red herring.

Sometimes, even in great fantasy, the easiest, most human answer is the correct one - That rand creates in his head a way to cope with having memories thrust upon him, coupled with the madness of the taint... it makes much more sense that it's all a creation of his mind. The personality is correct, it IS LTT, but only because of the memories in Rand's head.

Seems to me to be the most simple answer. Maybe a bit more real than Fantasy, but it makes good sense to me.

That said, I really enjoy this debate so keep it up! I would love to have my mind changed back to the other side :)

-B

[Terez]

I have been a LONG time LTT is Sentient believer - Back on the old forums I used to argue for it I remember, and I seem to remember you being close to the edge of being convinced, too. I'll search the old threads later.

Now that I am back, and reading all of this:

I'm convinced otherwise. Yay!

I would love to have my mind changed back to the other side
:mad: Not if I can help it. :D

[Crispin's Crispian]

*shrug* It doesn't make much difference, and still doesn't have anything to do with Mat or Birgitte beyond the difference that they do not talk to their memories.

I agree that you can't really look to Mat or Birgitte as evidence for any particular argument in Rand's case.

Rand is an incarnation or avatar of the same soul for which LTT was also an avatar. Birgitte isn't an avatar at all--she's the archetypal or platonic ideal of all her incarnations. Her "past life memories" are actually just memories, because her past lives and her current life are one and the same.

Mat's case is completely separate, because (a) he doesn't have memories of his own past lives or incarnations, and (b) he has memories from many different people. In either case, Mat wouldn't work for a comparison to Rand, whose past life memories and/or past life personality are actually from his own soul.

[Terez]

Birgitte isn't an avatar at all--she's the archetypal or platonic ideal of all her incarnations. Her "past life memories" are actually just memories, because her past lives and her current life are one and the same.
You say that as if Rand's past life memories aren't actually just memories. :D

[Weird Harold]

Mat's case is completely separate, because (a) he doesn't have memories of his own past lives or incarnations, and (b) he has memories from many different people. In either case, Mat wouldn't work for a comparison to Rand, whose past life memories and/or past life personality are actually from his own soul.

Mat's case is relevant to understanding Rand's, but only as an example of how Rand needs to integrate and accept all of the memories in his head as belonging there.

A) Mat does have a few of his own past life memories -- they manifested during his separation from the Ruby Dagger and subsequent Healing. Aemon is either a past life of Mat's or an ancestor of Mat's but whether the memories from before the *finn "patched the holes" were Soul memory from a past life or Old Blood memories Mat does have personal memories of past lives.

b) If Mat had the same kind of reaction as Rand to "foreign memories" as Rand, we could expect Mat to hear a whole chorus of voices. Mat doesn't hear voices, because he knows where the foreign memories came from and accepts that they are there because he asked for them.

The fact than any one fragment or group of fragments from any single donor aren't large enough to reconstruct a full personality from makes multiple personalities/voices developing less likely, but not impossible.

The main difference between Mat or Birgitte and Rand is knowledge; they know how and why they have memories of past lives where Rand does not -- they have no reason to reject the memories as a manifestation of the Madness Rand is trying so desperately to stave off.

The solution to the LTT dilemma is for Rand to adopt a new philosophy:

I don't suffer from Insanity, I'm enjoying every minute.

[Crispin's Crispian]

You say that as if Rand's past life memories aren't actually just memories. :D
:rolleyes:

You missed the point, obviously. Birgitte doesn't have any past lives. She just has her life. Rand (as an avatar of the Dragon, or Chosen One, or whatever) does have past lives.

Or maybe we should call them something else. Birgitte's memories are all apparently equally accessible (though the oldest are fading). Rand apparently only has access to the LTT memories, whether or not LTT's personality is genuine or constructed.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Mat's case is relevant to understanding Rand's, but only as an example of how Rand needs to integrate and accept all of the memories in his head as belonging there.

Sure, but that may or may not be relevant to this discussion depending on whether you think the LTT voice exists because of the lack of integration.

A) Mat does have a few of his own past life memories -- they manifested during his separation from the Ruby Dagger and subsequent Healing. Aemon is either a past life of Mat's or an ancestor of Mat's but whether the memories from before the *finn "patched the holes" were Soul memory from a past life or Old Blood memories Mat does have personal memories of past lives.

Yes, Mat has memories of past lives, but we have no indication that they were his own soul's past lives. Aemon might be, but we can't tell for sure. He's never mentioned anything about Aemon again, has he?

b) If Mat had the same kind of reaction as Rand to "foreign memories" as Rand, we could expect Mat to hear a whole chorus of voices. Mat doesn't hear voices, because he knows where the foreign memories came from and accepts that they are there because he asked for them.

The fact than any one fragment or group of fragments from any single donor aren't large enough to reconstruct a full personality from makes multiple personalities/voices developing less likely, but not impossible.

This assumes the "reaction" is due to Rand's illness and/or construction of a voice to deal with non-integration and supression of unwanted aspects of his personality. This "reaction" is precisely what's being debated.


The main difference between Mat or Birgitte and Rand is knowledge; they know how and why they have memories of past lives where Rand does not -- they have no reason to reject the memories as a manifestation of the Madness Rand is trying so desperately to stave off.

Does Rand really not know where his memories are coming from? He might not know why, precisely, but I'm sure he's got some ideas.

[Terez]

:rolleyes:

You missed the point, obviously. No, I didn't. I didn't address the "point" because it wasn't the bit that I had an issue with. ;)

Birgitte doesn't have any past lives. She just has her life. Sort of. She can distinguish between the memories of each life easily - that's why she compares them to well-read books. Also, since she got ripped out she's been forgetting lives, and now only remembers as far back as the founding of the White Tower (instead of several Turnings like before), and those memories are fragmenting.

In other words, she and Rand are approaching the same level of past life memory access, from different directions.

Or maybe we should call them something else. Birgitte's memories are all apparently equally accessible (though the oldest are fading). Rand apparently only has access to the LTT memories, whether or not LTT's personality is genuine or constructed. Lews Therin's personality is genuine. Rand has it - it's a part of him whether or not he likes it. "Lews Therin" isn't quite it. :)

[Weird Harold]

Does Rand really not know where his memories are coming from? He might not know why, precisely, but I'm sure he's got some ideas.

Can you show some evidence that he does know where they come from that doesn't include his assumption that LTT is a separate entity in his head?

At the time LTT starts to appear, Rand has several bits of information that he (or more precisely his subconscious) mis-interpret:

1: Dead people can sometimes possess living people -- courtesy of Thom's scary campfire stories

2: He's doomed to go Mad and destroy the world because that's LTT's legacy as 'Kinslayer.'

3: Normal, sane, people don't have memories of people, places and Things they could'nt possibly remember popping up at random in their heads.

Rand's other problems of obsessing over "the women he's killed" and his need to relearn laughter and tears are other symptoms of someone who is coping poorly with the stresses of his life. I don't recall any instance (or suggestion) where Rand has talked to either Mat or Birgitte about having "past life memories" or even that he is aware that either Mat or Birgitte have past life memories to compare with his. He's far too worried about people thinking he has finally succumbed to Taint Madness to talk to even Min about LTT's presence in his head.

To someone who has spent 40 of 60 years dealing with the specter of delayed-onset-PTSD hanging over them, Rand's symptoms and separation of the memories of deeds he can't bear to acknowledge into a separate personality is a no-brainer.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Sort of. She can distinguish between the memories of each life easily - that's why she compares them to well-read books.
I still think it's not really comparable, because Birgitte isn't an incarnation of a soul--she is the soul.


In other words, she and Rand are approaching the same level of past life memory access, from different directions.
I'm still waiting for evidence that Rand has any past memories other than Lews Therin's. It would lend a shitload of credence to the Barrier Degredation theory, and destroy any theories about the Voice being around because the original LTT was (a) special, (b) died badly, (c) Healed by Isha'mael, and on and on, or because Rand is special a la Graendal--a specific person reborn according to prophecy. (Sorry for the long sentence.)

Lews Therin's personality is genuine. Rand has it - it's a part of him whether or not he likes it. "Lews Therin" isn't quite it. :)
It's so much clearer now. :rolleyes:

[Crispin's Crispian]

Can you show some evidence that he does know where they come from that doesn't include his assumption that LTT is a separate entity in his head?
No, I can't (though I haven't tried). This is a good question, actually.

To someone who has spent 40 of 60 years dealing with the specter of delayed-onset-PTSD hanging over them, Rand's symptoms and separation of the memories of deeds he can't bear to acknowledge into a separate personality is a no-brainer.
Well, I guess we're done here.

As someone who has spent 33 years of his life not having MPD, I can unequivocally say that Rand doesn't have it.

[Terez]

Going to repeat some stuff, just because:

Can you show some evidence that he does know where they come from that doesn't include his assumption that LTT is a separate entity in his head?

At the time LTT starts to appear, Rand has several bits of information that he (or more precisely his subconscious) mis-interpret:

1: Dead people can sometimes possess living people -- courtesy of Thom's scary campfire stories

2: He's doomed to go Mad and destroy the world because that's LTT's legacy as 'Kinslayer.'

3: Normal, sane, people don't have memories of people, places and Things they couldn't possibly remember popping up at random in their heads. 4. The first time Lews Therin "speaks" in Rand's head (The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 2, "Rhuidean") is when Rand is getting chewed out by Egwene because she let slip something that she didn't want Rand to know. Rand idly thinks that Ilyena never took it out on him when she was mad at herself. And then Rand's like, "whoa, where did that come from?" He remembers Ilyena though, vaguely - he can see her face. It's thoughts like these that Rand gradually comes to see as "Lews Therin's voice", long before he manages to actually have a conversation with Lews Therin (that, of course, takes effort, just like it takes effort for schizos to construct their "voices" - Rand's really got it easy in that department because he's got a face and a set of memories to associate with his inner madman).

5. From the very instant that Rand learned where these strange memories were coming from, his reaction was fierce denial - not just simple "oh no!" denial, but the kind where you chant until the boogeyman goes away.

6. When Rand was delirious at The Battle of Cairhien and started to talk about Sammael, and he remembered it later, that led him to believe to some extent that when he was weak, Lews Therin might be able to "take over".

7. When Rand was chasing Rahvin in Tel'aran'rhiod, Rahvin used a simple trick of the Dreamworld to try to "unmake" Rand. Rand, the n00b, has no idea how to fight back, but those lurking Lews Therin memories - just memories, mind - that Rand has been extremely uneasy with so far...they know how to counter Rahvin's move. You concentrate on your physical features so that your opponent can't change them. Since Rand, in a panic, subconsciously draws on Lews Therin's memories to counter Rahvin's move, he also subconsciously uses Lews Therin's features. All of a sudden, Rand finds having to make an effort to concentrate on his own features to keep from looking like Lews Therin. We knows from all the various female Tel'aran'rhiod n00bs that controlling your features in Tel'aran'rhiod isn't easy (though most don't have the problem of having two distinct faces in their thoughts, so they only have problems with clothes for the most part), so there's nothing surprising here about what just happened to Rand - to us. But Rand is freaking the fuck out, cause to him it seems like Lews Therin is taking over.

8. Another nice event that I haven't mentioned yet (still in The Fires of Heaven - all of this so far is from that book) is the scene at the docks, with Lanfear. A part of Rand wants to do the sensible thing, and kill Lanfear. But Rand's got this severe issue about killing women, and he's taking it just a bit too far here (really, this is one of the first really strong signs of his madness - his unwillingness to kill even Darkfriend women even when they are threatening the lives of his friends, which include women). Anyway. Rand suppresses the side of him that wants to kill Lanfear, because he knows what she is, what she's done, and what she is capable of. He labels that side of him as the madman that killed his own wife - he puts them in the same category. It was pretty much inevitable that, if he didn't kill Lanfear, that one of his female friends would die in place of the Forsaken. It would have been the sane thing to do, to kill her. But it was that crazy guy, Lews Therin, that would kill a woman - not Rand al'Thor.

I don't recall any instance (or suggestion) where Rand has talked to either Mat or Birgitte about having "past life memories" or even that he is aware that either Mat or Birgitte have past life memories to compare with his. Birgitte has managed to avoid him so far, so he hasn't even seen her yet (not counting Falme). He doesn't know the details with Mat, but he knows something (I'll provide details later but I have to go accompany voice lessons - be back in 3 hours if no one else has the quoteses).

[Weird Harold]

As someone who has spent 33 years of his life not having MPD, I can unequivocally say that Rand doesn't have it.

Do you have some family or other history that would lead you to believe you are at risk of MPD?

The point about haveing spent two-thirds of my life concerned about the possibility of some undiscovered trigger to a stress related disorder, Rand's symptoms and progresss are kind of a no-brainer, "well duh!" kind of understanding.

... It's thoughts like these that Rand gradually comes to see as "Lews Therin's voice", long before he manages to actually have a conversation with Lews Therin (that, of course, takes effort, just like it takes effort for schizos to construct their "voices" - Rand's really got it easy in that department because he's got a face and a set of memories to associate with his inner madman).

The main disagreement I have with your analysis is that you make it sound like the compartmentalization of LTT as being 'separate' from Rand is a conscious, deliberate process -- it is NOT conscious, deliberate, or even controllable.

LTT's "voice" is the kind of symptom you get when your subconscious tries to repress memories that refuse to stay repressed.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Do you have some family or other history that would lead you to believe you are at risk of MPD?

The point about haveing spent two-thirds of my life concerned about the possibility of some undiscovered trigger to a stress related disorder, Rand's symptoms and progresss are kind of a no-brainer, "well duh!" kind of understanding.
I got your point. I was being sarcastic.



LTT's "voice" is the kind of symptom you get when your subconscious tries to repress memories that refuse to stay repressed.
An unconcsiously developed construct is certianly more believable, since we have evidence of Rand creating the voice on purpose. Or rather, if we do have it, I'm sure Terez will post it.

I just don't recall him ever thinking, "I don't understand why I'm remembering this--I must have Lews Therin in my head rather than these being my own memories."

[Belazamon]

I just don't recall him ever thinking, "I don't understand why I'm remembering this--I must have Lews Therin in my head rather than these being my own memories."

Are you implying that you think it would have had to be a conscious decision/conclusion? Just looking for clarification.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Well, I was responding to WH, who was responding to Terez, who seemed to imply Rand was doing it on purpose. I'm not so sure, though.

[Terez]

The main disagreement I have with your analysis is that you make it sound like the compartmentalization of LTT as being 'separate' from Rand is a conscious, deliberate process -- it is NOT conscious, deliberate, or even controllable.
Yeah, I know, and I often point out that it's subconscious. It's just a reaction - but it's a reaction to Rand's efforts to deny that Lews Therin's memories are his own. It is a result of Rand's conscious action, but indirectly.

[Terez]

I just don't recall him ever thinking, "I don't understand why I'm remembering this--I must have Lews Therin in my head rather than these being my own memories."Are you implying that you think it would have had to be a conscious decision/conclusion? Just looking for clarification.As for that, in addition to my response to WH, a response for Mutt (I thought I gave this one already but maybe that was in the other thread(s)):

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 6 - Gateways

"You have two of them," she said finally. "I thought I glimpsed... One is a woman, isn't it?" Her smile could have halted a man's heart and made him grateful. "You are beginning to consider my plan, aren't you? With those, together, the other Chosen will kneel at our feet. We can supplant the Great Lord himself, challenge the Creator. We —"

"You were always ambitious, Mierin." His voice grated in his ears. "Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn't Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!"

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. "Graendal said..." she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. "Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!"

Rand's face was like rock; he hoped it hid his shock. He had no idea where his words had come from, but it seemed he could remember her. A dim memory, from before. I am not Lews Therin Telamon! "I am Rand al'Thor!" he said harshly. He doesn't say it quite like you say it, but it's close enough. It's obviously important to Rand that he deny being Lews Therin. He doesn't then say to his previously faceless imaginary friend, "I will love you and hug you and name you Lews Therin." That's just something that vaguely comes about over time as a result of Rand's constant chanting until the boogeyman goes away (fly buzzing, and all).

Edit: I checked and I did already give that quote in this thread (an extended version with Rand chanting some more a few paragraphs later, post #5), but meh it's not like I expect people to read everything I post anyway.

[Sodas]

Rand's had mega-exposure to the Taint, which in my theory wears away the barrier that keeps soul incarnations separate. LTT wakes up, right where he left off, and now Rand's soul is trying to operate with two incarnations active.
And I just don't think there is any proof for that speculation. The barrier is never described as worn between them. If it is, then please quote it to me, but otherwise I continue to think that the barrier was, is, and will continue to be thin between them.

As for my side of the LTT debate, of course I believe he is real. I look at the comment of "LTT reborn" as literally true.

My proof? Well, the Heroes of the Horn at Falme who named him LTT. They named him LTT not because Rand had some vague memories inside his head that didn't fit or because it was some unwritten code of naming a person by their last incarnation in TAR, it was because LTT was present the whole time.

My theory is that what allowed LTT to emerge was the acceptance of being LTT reborn.

This is why after pulling Callandor from the Stone, according to prophesy, and defeating Ishamael, it finally sinks in for him. We see the first break out of the LTT personally right after these events, during the 2nd use of Callandor. (edit in : The use of the OP, particularly in such amounts, helped as well in drawing LTT out. The confluence of these two events is what resulted in the break out of LTT.)

[Terez]

As I was reading through the thread I came across a post I wanted to address earlier but de-prioritized because it was mostly construct-ish:

i guess this debate is a horse that has been flogged as much as who killed asmodean. IMO it's a lot more interesting than Asmodean. With Asmodean you only have itty bits of evidence to work with, and the answer to the question doesn't really have any particularly profound implications for the plot. With Lews Therin, the evidence spans the entire series, and so do the red herrings, making it counter-intuitive because most of our info about Lews Therin is filtered through Rand's biased and even unstable point of view.

The LTT personality is obviously not the original personality inhabiting Rand's mind and body, but I think it's been constructed by Rand's mind to be as real as the original Rand personality. If it wasn't as real, it wouldn't have been able to take over Rand's ability to channel as it did in KoD during the Trolloc attack on the farm. I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. Are you saying that the persona is convincing enough to Rand?

Now, I also doubt whether the LTT personality *is* the exact LTT personality from the AoL. Has to do with the memories. Rand's mind created it from the available memories, but if ALL of the LTT/AoL memories haven't come to Rand, then Rand's mind is creating the LTT personality from an incomplete set of files basically. It could only be the real LTT from the AoL if EVERYTHING from LTT's AoL memories has come thru and been used by Rand's mind to create the LTT personality we are debating. This sounds like Callandor's argument, that I mentioned earlier. The thing about memories is that no one's memories are really "complete". We remember more recent stuff easier than older stuff. We remember events that had a major emotional impact, even if they are old memories. So it's really not all that surprising that the memories bubbling to the surface the most often seem to center around Ilyena - that event had an extreme emotional impact on Lews Therin, and Rand not only remembers it, but he feels the pain as if it were his own. And, in the sense that the real'ers think Lews Therin is a sentient being, I don't think that Rand having access to "all" of Lews Therin's memories would make "Lews Therin" any more "real".

[Terez]

As for my side of the LTT debate, of course I believe he is real. I look at the comment of "LTT reborn" as literally true. Cool, then you concede that Rand=Lews Therin?

My theory is that what allowed LTT to emerge was the acceptance of being LTT reborn. Here's a nice quote, for those with a better ability to read between the lines than Sodas. :D

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 7 - Pitfalls and Tripwires

His thoughts whirled through his dance with saidin, slid across the Void. Annoura, peering at him with that Aes Sedai gaze. What was Berelain playing at? She had never mentioned an Aes Sedai advisor. And those other Aes Sedai in Cairhien. Where had they come from, and why? The rebels outside the city. What had emboldened them to move? What did they intend now? How could he stop them, or use them? He was becoming good at using people; sometimes he made himself sick. Sevanna and the Shaido. Rhuarc already had scouts on the way to Kinslayer's Dagger, but at best they could only find out where and when. The Wise Ones who could find out why, would not. There were a lot of why's connected to Sevanna. Elayne, and Aviendha. No, he would not think of them. No thoughts of them. None. Perrin, and Faile. A fierce woman, falcon by name and nature. Had she really attached herself to Colavaere just to gather evidence? She would try to protect Perrin if the Dragon Reborn fell. Protect him from the Dragon Reborn, should she decide it necessary; her loyalties were to Perrin, but she would decide for herself how to meet them. Faile was no woman to do meekly as her husband told her, if such a woman existed. Golden eyes, staring challenge and defiance. Why was Perrin so vehement about the Aes Sedai? He had been a long time with Kiruna and her companions on the road to Dumai’s Wells. Could Aes Sedai really do with him what everybody feared? Aes Sedai. He shook his head without being aware. Never again. Never! To trust was to be betrayed; trust was pain.

He tried to push that thought away. It came a little too close to raving. Nobody could live without giving trust somewhere. Just not to Aes Sedai. Mat, Perrin. If he could not trust them... Min. Never a thought of not trusting Min. He wished she were with him, instead of snugged in her bed. All those days a prisoner, days of worry - more for him than herself, if he knew her - days of being questioned by Galina and ill-treated when her answers failed to please - unconsciously he ground his teeth - all of that, and the strain of being Healed on top of it, had caught up with her at last. She had stayed by his side until her legs gave way, and he had to carry her to her bedchamber, with her sleepily protesting all the way that he needed her with him. No Min here, no comforting presence to make him laugh, make him forget the Dragon Reborn. Only the war with saidin, and the whirlwind of his thoughts, and...

They must be done away with. You must do it. Don’t you remember the last time? That place by the wells was a pittance. Cities burned whole out of the earth were nothing. We destroyed the world! DO YOU HEAR ME? THEY HAVE TO BE KILLED, WIPED FROM THE FACE...!

Not his, that voice shouting inside his skull. Not Rand al’Thor. Lews Therin Telamon, more than three thousand years dead. And talking in Rand al’Thor’s head. The Power often drew him out of his hiding place in the shadows of Rand’s mind. Sometimes Rand wondered how that could be. He was Lews Therin reborn, the Dragon Reborn, no denying that, but everybody was someone reborn, a hundred someones, a thousand, more. That was how the Pattern worked; everyone died and was reborn, again and again as the Wheel turned, forever without end. But nobody else talked with who they used to be. Nobody else had voices in their heads. Except madmen.

What about me, Rand thought. One hand tightened on the Dragon Scepter, the other on his sword hilt. What about you? How are we different from them?

There was only silence. Often enough, Lews Therin did not answer. Maybe it had been better when he never had.

Are you real? the voice said at last, wonderingly. That denial of Rand’s existence was as usual as refusing to answer. Am I? I spoke to someone. I think I did. Inside a box. A chest. Wheezing laughter, soft. Am I dead, or mad, or both? No matter. I am surely damned. I am damned, and this is the Pit of Doom, I am... d-damned, wild, that laughing, now, and t-this - is the P-Pit of -

Rand muted the voice to an insect's buzz, something he had learned while cramped into that chest. Alone, in the dark. Just him, and the pain, and the thirst, and the voice of a long-dead madman. The voice had been a comfort sometimes, his only companion. His friend. Something flashed in his mind. Not images, just flickers of color and motion. For some reason they made him think of Mat, and Perrin. The flashes had begun inside the chest, them and a thousand more hallucinations. In the chest, where Galina and Erian and Katerine and the rest stuffed him every day after he was beaten. He shook his head. No. He was not in the chest anymore. His fingers ached, clenched around scepter and hilt. Only memories remained, and memories had no force. He was not - And then someone interrupts his little train of thought, which was definitely tending towards chanting to make the boogeyman go away. So, Cadsuane's little declaration later in the book (even longer quote) was not just a random, out of nowhere thing that made Rand paranoid - Rand was asking the right questions, wondering whether or not Lews Therin was "real" - it becomes even more important to Rand that "Lews Therin" be "real" when he's finally made to face the alternative:


TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 18 - As the Plow Breaks the Earth


The woman looked at the battered tea things as if she had all the time in the world. "Now you know," she said at last, calm as ever, "that I know your future, and your present. The Light’s mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and believe the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?"

"What do you mean?" he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening.

The tingle returned to his skin, and he very nearly channeled, but all that happened was that the teapot rose and floated to Cadsuane, turning slowly in the air for her to examine. "Some men who can channel begin to hear voices." She spoke almost absently, frowning at the flattened sphere of silver and gold. "It is a part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do." The teapot drifted gently to the floor by her feet. "Have you heard any?"

Startlingly, Dashiva gave a raucous laugh, shoulders shaking. Narishma wet his lips; he might not have been afraid of the woman before, but now he watched her closely as a scorpion.

"I will ask the questions," Rand said firmly. "You seem to forget. I am the Dragon Reborn." You are real, aren’t you? he wondered. There was no answer. Lews Therin? Sometimes the man did not answer, but Aes Sedai always drew him. Lews Therin? He was not mad; the voice was real, not imagination. Not madness. A sudden desire to laugh did not help.

Cadsuane sighed. "You are a young man who has little idea where he is going or why, or what lies ahead. You seem overwrought. Perhaps we can speak when you are more settled. Have you any objection to my taking Merana and Annoura away for a little while? I’ve seen neither in quite some time."

Rand gaped at her. She swooped in, insulted him, threatened him, casually announced she knew about the voice in his head, and with that she wanted to leave and talk with Merana and Annoura? Is she mad? Still no answer from Lews Therin. The man was real. He was!

"Go away," he said. "Go away, and... " He was not mad. "All of you, get out! Get out!"

Dashiva blinked at him, tilting his head, then shrugged and started for the door. Cadsuane smiled in such a way that he half-expected her to tell him again he was a good boy, then gathered up Merana and Annoura and herded them toward the Maidens, who were lowering their veils and frowning worriedly. Narishma looked at him too, hesitating until Rand gestured sharply. Finally they were all gone, and he was alone. Alone.

Convulsively he hurled the Dragon Scepter. The spear-point stuck quivering in the back of one the chairs, the tassels swaying.

"I am not mad," he said to the empty room. Lews Therin had told him things; he would never have escaped Galina's chest without the dead man’s voice. But he had used the Power before he ever heard the voice; he had figured out how to call lightning and hurl fire and form a construct that had killed hundreds of Trollocs. But then, maybe that had been Lews Therin, like those memories of climbing trees in a plum orchard, and entering the Hall of the Servants, and a dozen more that crept up on him unawares. And maybe those memories were all fancies, mad dreams of a mad mind, just like the voice.

He realized he was pacing, and could not stop. He felt as if he had to move or his muscles would tear him apart in spasms. "I am not mad," he panted. Not yet. "I am not -" The sound of the door opening made him whirl, hoping for Min.

It was Riallin again, supporting a short stocky woman in a dark blue dress, with hair more gray than not and a blunt face. A haggard, red-eyed face.

He wanted to tell them to go away, to leave him alone. Alone. Was he alone? Was Lews Therin a dream? If only they would leave him... Idrien Tarsin was the head of the school he had founded here in Cairhien, a woman so practical he was not sure she believed in the One Power since she could neither see nor touch it. What could reduce her to this state?

He made himself turn toward her. Mad or not, alone or not, there was no one else to do what had to be done. Not even this small duty. Heavier than a mountain. "What is the matter?" he asked, making his voice as gentle as he could.

Suddenly weeping, Idrien stumbled to him and collapsed against his chest. When she was coherent enough to tell her story, he felt like weeping too. Few more interesting things to note about that quote:


1. Rand mentions that Aes Sedai often draw Lews Therin. There's a bolded bit in the first quote that shows exactly why - the Aes Sedai make him paranoid, with good reason, and always have, and especially do now after Dumai's Wells. His thoughts about them come "too close to raving".


2. Rand justifies the "real"ness of Lews Therin by the fact that the "voice" told him things that he needed to know in the box. Then he reminds himself that he had remembered directly how to make the construct in the Stone that killed all the Shadowspawn, which has nothing to do with a voice talking to him in his head. Then he wonders if Lews Therin had "taken over" even then. Then, he considers that the memories are "mad fancies", even though he damn well knows that's not true. He's had plenty enough confirmation of those memories at this point.

3. Lews Therin doesn't come back until The Path of Daggers chapter 14. We've discussed the circumstances of his return enough times, but if anyone's interested we can do it again. While Lews Therin is "gone", Rand meets Cadsuane again, and he's still chanting:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 36 - Blades

His hand rose before Cadsuane could move, and a bar of... something... liquid white fire brighter than the sun... shot out over the running woman’s head. The creature simply vanished. For a moment there was clear air where it had been, and along the line that the bar had burned, until the fog began closing in. A moment while the woman froze where she stood. Then, shrieking at the top of her lungs, she turned and ran from them, still downslope, fleeing what she feared more than nightmares in these mists.
"You!" Toram roared, so loudly that Min spun to face him with her knives raised. He stood pointing his sword at Rand. "You are him! I was right! This is your work! You will not trap me, al’Thor!" Suddenly he broke away at an angle, scrambling wildly up the slope. "You will not trap me!"

"Come back!" Darlin shouted after him. "We must stick together! We must... " He trailed off, staring at Rand. "You are him. The Light burn me, you are!" He half-moved as if to place himself between Rand and Caraline, but at least he did not run.

Calmly, Cadsuane picked her way across the slope to Rand. And slapped his face so hard his head jerked. Min’s breath caught in shock. "You will not do that again," Cadsuane said. There was no heat in her voice, just iron. "Do you hear me? Not balefire. Not ever."

Surprisingly, Rand only rubbed his cheek. "You were wrong, Cadsuane. He’s real. I’m certain of it. I know he is." Even more surprisingly, he sounded as if he very much wanted her to believe.

Min’s heart went out to him. He had mentioned hearing voices; he must mean that. She raised her right hand toward him, forgetting for the moment that it held a knife, and opened her mouth to say something comforting. Though she was not entirely sure she would ever be able to use that particular word innocuously again. She opened her mouth - and Padan Fain seemed to leap out of the mists behind Rand, steel gleaming in his fist.

[Frenzy]

So it basically comes down to interpretation:
Not his, that voice shouting inside his skull. Not Rand al’Thor. Lews Therin Telamon, more than three thousand years dead. And talking in Rand al’Thor’s head. The Power often drew him out of his hiding place in the shadows of Rand’s mind. Sometimes Rand wondered how that could be. He was Lews Therin reborn, the Dragon Reborn, no denying that, but everybody was someone reborn, a hundred someones, a thousand, more. That was how the Pattern worked; everyone died and was reborn, again and again as the Wheel turned, forever without end. But nobody else talked with who they used to be. Nobody else had voices in their heads. Except madmen.
Did Rand make up that voice to cope with the memories and stuff, or did the voice come in pre-packaged?

i'm not a psychologist, and i have no direct experience with PTSD. So if someone with that background and experience says that what Rand is presenting fits that mold, then fine. However, as we all like to point out, WoT is not the real world. Why have a voice and memories and talents and all of THE most famous character of the last 3,500 years and not have it be that character? Chekhov's gun and all that.

The first instance of Rand talking to himself i could find was in Chapter 7 of EotW:
Eye of the World CHAPTER: 7 - Out of the Woods
In his mind he saw again the Trollocs on the road. Trollocs coming from the east, from the direction of Emond's Field. He peered ahead, trying to make out the first houses, and ready to shout for help at the first sight of anyone, even Cenn Buie or one of the Coplins. A small voice in the back of his head told him to hope someone there could still give help.
Is that just his internal monologue? Is it the first sign of LTT? Is it showing Rand's predisposition to creating voices? Is it just a turn of phrase? Depends on which theory you're supporting.

Personally, i think RJ left it ambiguous for a reason. It makes it interesting, and it gives both Rand and us something to play with. i seriously suspect that LTT's real-ness or otherwise will remain one of those unfinished threads RJ threatened us with a few years back.

[Belazamon]

Personally, i think RJ left it ambiguous for a reason. It makes it interesting, and it gives both Rand and us something to play with. i seriously suspect that LTT's real-ness or otherwise will remain one of those unfinished threads RJ threatened us with a few years back.

After all these years, this comes closest to the way I feel about it, I suppose. I don't necessarily think that RJ left it ambiguous on purpose - but either interpretation can really work, whether or not he intended it that way (and I'm inclined to think he didn't, because I don't think he was ever a psychologist by trade).

Personally I'll always be in the "LTT is a personality construct" camp, but that's because my psych degree kind of makes my mind work that way. ;)

[Terez]

So it basically comes down to interpretation Yup. Doesn't mean that one interpretation isn't the right one, though, or that it can't be reasonably shown with enough quotes.

Did Rand make up that voice to cope with the memories and stuff, or did the voice come in pre-packaged? I addressed that in an earlier post - Rand has thoughts that are rooted in Lews Therin's memories, and he eventually comes to see those thoughts as a voice because he doesn't identify with those memories. Like you said in the beginning, it's a gradual thing. The real'ers tend to see it as Lews Therin becoming more aware; I see it as Rand's perceptions gradually being shaped by his motives. So, that's back to interpretation again, but the reason I think my interpretation is more logical is that Rand's motives can be clearly established with repeated instances of an actual effort on Rand's part to disassociate himself from Lews Therin, while the real'er interpretation is dependent on Rand's perceptions which, because of those same quotes, we have reason to believe are suspect.

i'm not a psychologist, and i have no direct experience with PTSD. So if someone with that background and experience says that what Rand is presenting fits that mold, then fine. We might be able to drag Ivhon over here (though he's hardly a proper sample size), and Bela approves, but really, I don't see why you would expect Rand to fit the PTSD mold. No one ever said that he did - he's unique. No one said that RJ was a psychologist either; everything involved in this theory is pretty much on a layman's level of understanding, when it comes to human motive, and human ability at self-deception.

However, as we all like to point out, WoT is not the real world. Really? I guess I should cancel my date with Demandred then. :(

Why have a voice and memories and talents and all of THE most famous character of the last 3,500 years and not have it be that character? Because Rand is that character. That's the whole point. :p

The first instance of Rand talking to himself i could find was in Chapter 7 of EotW:

Is that just his internal monologue? Yup.

Is it the first sign of LTT? Nope. Everyone has internal monologues. Here's a nice example:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn

"Which way did he go?" she asked Nisura. There was no need to say who. She heard Rand's name in the conversation of the other women clustered around the arched doors.

"I don't know, Nynaeve. He came out as fast as if he had Heartsbane himself at his heels. As well he might, coming here with a sword at his belt. The Dark One should be the least of his worries after that. What is the world coming to? And him presented to the Amyrlin in her chambers, no less. Tell me, Nynaeve, is he really a prince in your land?" The other women stopped talking and leaned closer to listen.

Nynaeve was not sure what she answered. Something that made them let her go on. She hurried away from the women's apartments, head swiveling at every crossing corridor to look for him, fists clenched. Light, what have they done to him? I should have gotten him away from Moiraine somehow, the Light blind her. I'm his Wisdom.

Are you, a small voice taunted. You've abandoned Emond's Field to fend for itself. Can you still call yourself their Wisdom?

I did not abandon them, she told herself fiercely. I brought Mavra Mallen up from Deven Ride to look after matters till I get back. She can deal well enough with the Mayor and the Village Council, and she gets on well with the Women's Circle.

Mavra will have to get back to her own village. No village can do without its Wisdom for long. Nynaeve cringed inside. She had been gone months from Emond's Field.

"I am the Wisdom of Emond's Field!" she said aloud. Nynaeve has this conversation with herself because she's trying to convince herself of something, and it ends with her chanting like Rand does when he's all "I am Rand al'Thor!" But not everyone has an extra set of memories to give a face to their internal muses, though.

Is it showing Rand's predisposition to creating voices? Nope. He doesn't have a predisposition to creating voices. He just has a predisposition to disassociating himself from Lews Therin.

Is it just a turn of phrase? Depends on which theory you're supporting. Not really. All of these answers are fairly straightforward.

Personally, i think RJ left it ambiguous for a reason. It makes it interesting, and it gives both Rand and us something to play with. i seriously suspect that LTT's real-ness or otherwise will remain one of those unfinished threads RJ threatened us with a few years back. I've said as much before. :)

[Terez]

Oh, and I missed this post:

I still think it's not really comparable, because Birgitte isn't an incarnation of a soul--she is the soul. Rand is the soul too, though. Just because he doesn't have all of his past life memories doesn't mean that he's not the soul. Yes, to a certain extent they are not comparable because of where Birgitte came from, but she is our Hero of the Horn representative, nevertheless. No one else compares so closely. She's a major part of what RJ gave us in the way of clues that Rand might be able to deal with Lews Therin's memories in a more healthy manner, that maybe it's not exactly how he perceives it to be.

I'm still waiting for evidence that Rand has any past memories other than Lews Therin's. WH I think is the only one that suggested Rand might have memories beyond Lews Therin's - I don't think there's any evidence that he does, and I don't think WH was suggesting that there was. In fact, I disagree with his presumption that the life before Lews Therin's might be indistinguishable because it would have been in the same Age - by all appearances, Rand is probably only spun out once in an Age. That might have something to do with his overall importance in the Pattern as its savior, but it might just be because channelers have long lives.

It's so much clearer now. :rolleyes: Well, I was trying to avoid repeating myself. But to clarify further, Rand has been directly exhibiting Lews Therin's personality traits since even before he recognized where the memories are coming from. Lews Therin's personality is a part of him now, but "Lews Therin" the persona doesn't necessarily represent that.

Edit: and I also glossed over this bit by Bela:

I don't necessarily think that RJ left it ambiguous on purpose - but either interpretation can really work, whether or not he intended it that way (and I'm inclined to think he didn't, because I don't think he was ever a psychologist by trade). I know you didn't feel like reading the whole thread (no prob) but we do know that RJ intended it that way:


Lord of Chaos book tour Fall 1994 - Dennis reporting (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Stories_from_RJ%27s_LOC_signing_tour%2C_Fall_1994)


I asked him what we had picked up on that he thought we wouldn't, and he wouldn't tell me. He did say that the two ways of looking at the Rand/Lews Therin thing (Lews Therin causing Rand's madness/Lews Therin a manifestation of Rand's madness) was intentional. Wouldn't tell me which one it was though....
Just because RJ wasn't a psychologist doesn't mean anything. A lot of psych issues have a great deal of cultural mass appeal, and the multiple personality thing is one of the better represented psych issues in pop culture. The issue of legal insanity (Lews Therin being the perfect candidate) is another. Also, RJ had a wide range of interests that certainly weren't limited to his field - that's why the series is chock full of real-world references, to various legends and real world things down to weird ones like the Order of the Golden Dawn.

[Sodas]

Personally, i think RJ left it ambiguous for a reason. It makes it interesting, and it gives both Rand and us something to play with. i seriously suspect that LTT's real-ness or otherwise will remain one of those unfinished threads RJ threatened us with a few years back.
Maybe I would agree that it was alittle ambiguous up until Semirhage's comments.

But now that we have those comments reguarding many more pre-Taint cases, well, it's not so ambiguous anymore.

[Terez]

Maybe I would agree that it was alittle ambiguous up until Semirhage's comments.

But now that we have those comments reguarding many more pre-Taint cases, well, it's not so ambiguous anymore.
What do pre-taint cases have to do with Lews Therin's "real"ness or lack thereof? That has more to do with barrier degradation (and not so much to do with that as you anti-barrier-degradation guys pretend).

Semirhage comments don't come anywhere close to making the situation less ambiguous.

[Frenzy]

What do pre-taint cases have to do with Lews Therin's "real"ness or lack thereof? That has more to do with barrier degradation (and not so much to do with that as you anti-barrier-degradation guys pretend).

Semirhage comments don't come anywhere close to making the situation less ambiguous.
Semirhage's comments and the pre-taint cases show that voices from past lives do start talking to their current incarnations. There's precedent. The Taint is just a new mechanism that produces the same result: the past life talking to the current one.

[Terez]

Semirhage's comments and the pre-taint cases show that voices from past lives do start talking to their current incarnations.
Does it? We don't have their thoughts, so how would we know? My guess is that they probably just talked to their memories like Rand does. They wouldn't have as strong of a disassociation motive as Rand does, but they still would have a developed sense of individuality as motivation. In any case, it's not like we have any details on these people, so Semirhage's mention of them certain doesn't clear up ambiguities like Sodas suggests.

[Frenzy]

It's more than them talking to their memories, it's that their memories are talking back. Both Cadsuane & Semirhage clearly state that:
Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 18 - As the Plow Breaks the Earth
"...The Light's mercy fades to nothing for a man who can channel. Some see that and believe the Light denies those men. I do not. Have you begun to hear voices, yet?"

"What do you mean?" he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening. The tingle returned to his skin, and he very nearly channeled, but all that happened was that the teapot rose and floated to Cadsuane, turning slowly in the air for her to examine. "Some men who can channel begin to hear voices." She spoke almost absently, frowning at the flattened sphere of silver and gold. "It is a part of the madness. Voices conversing with them, telling them what to do." The teapot drifted gently to the floor by her feet. "Have you heard any?"
Knife of Dreams CHAPTER: 27 - A Plain Wooden Box
"Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin Telamon could know. Clearly, he is hearing Lews Therin's voice. It makes no difference that his voice is real, however. In fact, that makes his situation worse. Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be . . . abrupt." Her lips curved in a smile that never touched her dark eyes.

[Neilbert]

For Paracelsus, I had two nicknames in ‘Nam. First up was Ganesha, after the Hindu god called the Remover of Obstacles. He’s the one with the elephant head. That one stuck with me, but I gained another that I didn’t like so much. The Iceman. One day, we had what the Aussies called a bit of a brass-up. Just our ship alone, but we caught an NVA battalion crossing a river, and wonder of wonders, we got permission to fire before they finished. The gunner had a round explode in the chamber, jamming his 60, and the fool had left his barrel bag, with spares, back in the revetment. So while he was frantically rummaging under my seat for my barrel bag, it was over to me, young and crazy, standing on the skid, singing something by the Stones at the of my lungs with the mike keyed so the others could listen in, and Lord, Lord, I rode that 60. 3000 rounds, an empty ammo box, and a smoking barrel that I had burned out because I didn’t want to take the time to change. We got ordered out right after I went dry, so the artillery could open up, and of course, the arty took credit for every body recovered, but we could count how many bodies were floating in the river when we pulled out. The next day in the orderly room an officer with a literary bent announced my entrance with “Behold, the Iceman cometh.” For those of you unfamiliar with Eugene O’Neil, the Iceman was Death. I hated that name, but I couldn’t shake it. And, to tell you the truth, by that time maybe it fit. I have, or used to have, a photo of a young man sitting on a log eating C-rations with a pair of chopsticks. There are three dead NVA laid out in a line just beside him. He didn’t kill them. He didn’t chose to sit there because of the bodies. It was just the most convenient place to sit. The bodies don’t bother him. He doesn’t care. They’re just part of the landscape. The young man is glancing at the camera, and you know in one look that you aren’t going to take this guy home to meet your parents. Back in the world, you wouldn’t want him in your neighborhood, because he is cold, cold, cold. I strangled that SOB, drove a stake through his heart, and buried him face down under a crossroad outside Saigon before coming home, because I knew that guy wasn’t made to survive in a civilian environment. I think he’s gone. All of him. I hope so. I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles.

This is not too short.

[Terez]

It's more than them talking to their memories, it's that their memories are talking back. Both Cadsuane & Semirhage clearly state that: 1. Cadsuane doesn't mention memories at all, and even seems confused when Rand recognizes Semirhage.

2. Semirhage says it, but we know more about what goes on in the heads of such people than she does, so I feel perfectly comfortable assuming that she doesn't much know what she's talking about. Especially considering that she said as much. I trust that she's correct that these people were remembering past lives, but I see no reason to trust that she's correct that their past life memories were sentient.

Good quote, Neil.

[Weird Harold]

Yeah, I know, and I often point out that it's subconscious. It's just a reaction - but it's a reaction to Rand's efforts to deny that Lews Therin's memories are his own. It is a result of Rand's conscious action, but indirectly.
I disagree that Rand's denial of Lews Therin is a conscious act. His denial is verbal and it is something he's aware of, but it is driven by a subconscious need to maintian his identity as the proof of his sanity.

His 'conscious' thoughts are only the surface turbulence of a very deep subconscious disturbance. Like his mistaken need to be hard and his obsessive need to protect women, Rand's self-image hasn't grown to fit his outer acceptance of his status as tDR and a powerful channeler. He subconsciously represses anything that conflicts with that "simple sheepherder" self-image he tries to cling to.

[Weird Harold]

Y'all need to read this if you gonna talk about RJ and PTSD

This is not too short.

Neil, PTSD and a host of other mental an physical syndromes are a part of EVERY Vietnam Vet's consiousness. Even those of us who didn't need a stake through the heart and a midnight burial at a crossroads to lay our evil twin to rest are constantly aware of the problems that we escaped only by the grace of God.

Rand does NOT suffer from PTSD, nor does he suffer from clinical MPD, but he does suffer under an exagerated version of a mental state familiar to most combat veterans or anyone who spent time in Vietnam in the 60's and 70's and he is coping badly with the stress.

[Neilbert]

You talk like I was making some sort of claim, not simply providing information most people here were probably unaware of.

Rand does NOT suffer from PTSD, nor does he suffer from clinical MPD, but he does suffer under an exagerated version of a mental state familiar to most combat veterans or anyone who spent time in Vietnam in the 60's and 70's and he is coping badly with the stress.

Congratulations. We could talk about how exactly this is different from PTSD if I gave a shit, but we both know that's not the point and never was.

[Terez]

I disagree that Rand's denial of Lews Therin is a conscious act. His denial is verbal and it is something he's aware of, but it is driven by a subconscious need to maintian his identity as the proof of his sanity.
Sorry, but if he's aware of it, it's conscious. Yes, it causes all sorts of subconscious things to go on, and it stems from subconscious tendencies, but his denial of Lews Therin is rather undeniably a conscious act. His denial of Lews Therin takes a great deal of effort on his part. He ignores a lot of the details involved, but it's still a conscious effort.

[Frenzy]

I trust that she's correct that these people were remembering past lives, but I see no reason to trust that she's correct that their past life memories were sentient.
If they weren't sentient, then why did Graendal have to reintegrate them?

[Neilbert]

What kind of question is that?

If they weren't sentient, and they were completely made up by the individual, from past life memories that somehow existed and were real, there would still need to be reintegration.

Also, she was probably fucking with him on the madness thing. Sure, I think we can all agree there is truth in the Semerhge quote, but I don't think anyone believes she was being straightforward and honest.

[Terez]

If they weren't sentient, then why did Graendal have to reintegrate them?
Why would she have to REintegrate them if they weren't a whole thing in the first place? If their past lives were sentient, then it wouldn't be a psychological issue, now would it? But they called in the super-shrink for these folks...

But yeah, what Neil said.

[Weird Harold]

His denial of Lews Therin takes a great deal of effort on his part. He ignores a lot of the details involved, but it's still a conscious effort.

Could Rand choose to stop denying LTT?

Rand spends a lot of time and vehemence on asserting his identity, but it isn't a "conscious effort" on his part, it is the visible manifestation of a subconscious imperitive. What would (will) require a 'conscious effort' on Rand's part is to stop represssing and denying LTT's memories.

I think you see Rand's vehement denials as a cause of Rand's Madness rather than a symptom of Rand's madness.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Sometimes just posting a quote isn't enough--you have to actually say what you're arguing. But then, I didn't go back and read the original time you quoted it, so WTF do I know? ;)

[Neilbert]

The original time I quoted it is eleven posts up, you can go back and read it if you'd like. :)

Sometimes just posting a quote isn't enough--you have to actually say what you're arguing.

Yeah, because god knows some people are chomping at the bit to argue with nothing at all. The point, if there was any, was that RJ probably has more than a laymans understanding of PTSD (and associated disorders for the nitpicky crowd). In many ways Rand is a reflection of RJ, and Rands (and also LTs) experiences and reactions draw from RJ's time in Nam.

BTW PTSD is a red herring.

In fact, one could easily draw parallels between RJ's denial of the Iceman, and Rand's denial of LTT.

[Crispin's Crispian]

The original time I quoted it is eleven posts up, you can go back and read it if you'd like. :)


Wait. Who posted it? Neil or Terez? Or both? Are you the same poster?

[Neilbert]

Who posted it? RJ. In his blog. Terez and I aren't RJ, though I will not speak on us being the same person.

The first time I Neil posted it was in this thread. I Terez have probably posted it before, though I was unable to locate it in the interview database.

[Frenzy]

So neither Semirhage nor Cadsuane know that it's more than voices inside the heads of 'madmen' who have their past lives talking to them. Why is that even relevant, when it's their past lives talking to them. This thread was about the reality or lack thereof of LTT the voice in Rand's head. There's evidence that other 'madmen' have their past lives talking to them as well. Is the basis of your theory that Rand beat his past life to the punch and created a voice on his own to deal with the extra bit of memories and stuff before the real voice got to the mic?

[Crispin's Crispian]

Who posted it? RJ. In his blog. Terez and I aren't RJ, though I will not speak on us being the same person.

The first time I Neil posted it was in this thread. I Terez have probably posted it before, though I was unable to locate it in the interview database.
Well that was confusing.

I'm pretty sure we're talking about different quotes now. I have been referring to the FoH quote by Terez--she posted it twice in this thread.

You're probably talking about the 'Nam quote, right?

[Neilbert]

You're not as confused as you pretend to be. Maybe I need to ramp up my game.

Is the basis of your theory that Rand beat his past life to the punch and created a voice on his own to deal with the extra bit of memories and stuff before the real voice got to the mic?

Ooooor Rand is pretty much one of these AoLers who did the past life memory thingy with an extra helping of angst, and prophecy, etc.

I mean, think about it. During the AoL everything was pretty chill for the most part. So a past life dude would in all likelyhood not have a tenth of the emotional baggage that LTT carried. And they still went crazy enough that they had to go to wondershrink. (btw I highly doubt the validity of the descent into madness can be abrupt, I mean, it probably happened, but I doubt with anything near the regularity that Semi implied.)

Btw what real voice are you talking about? I assume you are replying to Terez, who I'm almost certain doesn't believe in a "real" voice, and in fact believes all of LTT to be much more in line with an inner monologue.

[Terez]

Sometimes just posting a quote isn't enough--you have to actually say what you're arguing. Yeah, but I have a lot to say about everything, and I'm trying to avoid pontificating too much. And I did bold the bit that was what you were looking for. :p

Could Rand choose to stop denying LTT? Yes, he could, but it wouldn't necessarily have good results.

Rand spends a lot of time and vehemence on asserting his identity, but it isn't a "conscious effort" on his part, it is the visible manifestation of a subconscious imperitive. Now you're arguing like a determinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism) and you don't even seem to realize it. The lines between conscious and subconscious aren't as clear as you make them out to be. There is conscious effort on Rand's part to deny Lews Therin, and also a conscious effort to suppress Lews Therin. Just because his situation nearly forces it doesn't change the fact. Just because he doesn't realize the far-reaching effects of his actions doesn't mean that he doesn't consciously make an effort to deny Lews Therin.

What would (will) require a 'conscious effort' on Rand's part is to stop represssing and denying LTT's memories. Yup, that will take effort too.

I think you see Rand's vehement denials as a cause of Rand's Madness rather than a symptom of Rand's madness. I think that it's a chicken/egg argument.

[Neilbert]

I think that it's a chicken/egg argument.

I think you should clarify, because it's pretty clear that Rand's stress, and LTTs madness both feed each other, and that it isn't just a one way street.

[Terez]

So neither Semirhage nor Cadsuane know that it's more than voices inside the heads of 'madmen' who have their past lives talking to them. Why is that even relevant, when it's their past lives talking to them. This thread was about the reality or lack thereof of LTT the voice in Rand's head. There's evidence that other 'madmen' have their past lives talking to them as well. Is the basis of your theory that Rand beat his past life to the punch and created a voice on his own to deal with the extra bit of memories and stuff before the real voice got to the mic? Not exactly. What I'm saying is, we have tons and tons of evidence from Rand's point of view to show that it's not as simple as "his past life talking to him", despite the fact that this information is presented in the context of Rand's own mental bias - like RJ said, "everyone thinks they know more than they actually know." In other words, we have hundreds of times as much evidence from Rand's point of view as we have about these people from the Age of Legends, or from Cadsuane. It's probably a pretty safe assumption that those people from the Age of Legends were remembering their past lives - it would have to have been verified somehow or another for there to be a distinction between "real voices" and regular crazy person not-real voices - but there is nothing to indicate from Semirhage's testimony that their past lives were sentient, because we know from Rand's point of view that it's not that simple.

Because we have Rand's point of view, his thoughts, we have a distinct advantage over Graendal, because she can't read minds. She is good at reading people, and she can use Compulsion sometimes, but even these are weak tools compared to the wealth of evidence about Rand's mental situation that we have at our disposal.

Granted, if Graendal had this same information at her disposal, she would have the advantage over us, because of her experience and Talent in the field of mental health. But she doesn't have that information, or anything close to it, and it's probably pretty safe to assume that she was not able to read her patients' minds.

Here, Graendal seems to consider that Rand might actually be Lews Therin:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
PROLOGUE - The First Sparks Fall

"If this Rand al'Thor really is Lews Therin Telamon reborn," Graendal went on, settling herself on the man's back where he crouched on all fours, "I am surprised you haven't tried to snuggle him into your bed, Lanfear. Or would it be so easy? I seem to remember Lews Therin led you by the nose, not the other way around. Squelched your little tantrums. Sent you running to fetch his wine, in a manner of speaking." She set her own wine on the tray, held out rigidly by the sightlessly kneeling woman. "You were so obsessed with him you'd have stretched out at his feet if he said 'rug'."

Lanfear's dark eyes glittered for a moment before she regained control of herself. "He may be Lews Therin reborn, but he is not Lews Therin himself."

"How do you know?" Graendal asked, smiling as if it were all a joke. "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who knows what he is?"

Lanfear gave a disparaging smirk. "I have observed him closely. He is no more than the shepherd he seems, still more naive than not." Scorn faded to seriousness. "But now he has Asmodean, weak ally as he is. And even before Asmodean, four of the Chosen have died confronting him." This is, by the way, before Rand confirms to Lanfear that he remembers her.

Also, Semirhage seems to assume that Rand knew who she was because Lews Therin "told him", but Rand remembered her directly without the assistance of the "voice" (which is usually the case - Rand says that the voice "seldom" offers up any information...Rand assumes that this is because Lews Therin is crazy and therefore not capable of having a normal conversation, but we have loads of information to suggest that it's because Rand doesn't actually need the "voice", or the "presence" to get those memories - he only needs the voice to create the illusion that Lews Therin is someone else, not him, and to express his inconvenient thoughts and emotions.

Although Rand realizes that he has an identity issue, he's not aware that the trains of motivated and flawed logic that he's used since he started remembering Lews Therin's life have lead to his perception of Lews Therin as a separate and sentient being.

As I quoted earlier, when Cadsuane throws out her bit about the voices, and "Lews Therin" disappears, Rand considers that all of the times that he's ever remembered anything from Lews Therin's life, that it was actually Lews Therin taking over. My interpretation is that this line of thought leads him to realize on some level of consciousness that this couldn't possibly be true - he knows it was him that made the construct in the Stone to kill all the Shadowspawn, though he knows now that the knowledge of how to do it came from Lews Therin's memories.

He knows he has done the same thing hundreds of times since, drawing directly from Lews Therin's memories. And this bothers him. Now, when he's in a tight spot and he knows he needs Lews Therin's memories, Lews Therin tries to take the Power from him. This bothers him too, but he doesn't realize that it's a defense mechanism that comes in response to Rand's knowledge, deep down, that Lews Therin has been him all along.

[Terez]

I think you should clarify, because it's pretty clear that Rand's stress, and LTTs madness both feed each other, and that it isn't just a one way street. That's the point. We don't know which came first, and after that point, the factors influence each other.

btw I highly doubt the validity of the descent into madness can be abrupt, I mean, it probably happened, but I doubt with anything near the regularity that Semi implied.
Considering what Semirhage did with her own patients, it wouldn't surprise me if Graendal did something similar with hers.

[Weird Harold]

Now you're arguing like a determinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism) and you don't even seem to realize it. The lines between conscious and subconscious aren't as clear as you make them out to be. There is conscious effort on Rand's part to deny Lews Therin, and also a conscious effort to suppress Lews Therin.

I'm not sure what your point about determinism is in regard to this particular subject, but in general terms, it's probably a better description of the WOT Cosmology than Predestinationism.

The distinction and separation between conscious and subconscious isn't particularly sharp, but my point here is that Rand did not make a choice to reject and suppress thepast life memories, because that would imply that he knew enough about them to make that choice.

Rand's entire mental problems can be traced to his intitial reaction that he was anything more than a Two Rivers farm boy. He's been scrunching up his eyes, sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting "la-la-la-la-la, you can't make me be that" right from the beginning and there was never a moment of choice involved in that reaction.

He has grudgingly accepted what he can't deny when he gets his nose rubbed in it hard enough, but he's still instinctively (and figuratively) diggin in his heels and yelling "I am not and you can't make me!"


Is the basis of your theory that Rand beat his past life to the punch and created a voice on his own to deal with the extra bit of memories and stuff before the real voice got to the mic?

I can't speak for the others, because my understanding of the situation is at odds with both sides to some extent, however...

Rand did not beat a "real voice" to the mic, nor did the male channelers Cadsuane's cryptic reference to tothers hearing voices beat real voices to the mic.

There are only memories accepted and integrated and memories repressed and rejected. Some of the latter refuse to stay repressed and get built into voices and/or alternate personalities as a coping mechanism. Nobody -- except Padan Fain, because he's possessed -- has a "real voice" in their head because there are no "real voices."

The only difference between Rand and Cadsuane's subjects is that he has outside information confirming whose memories are in his head because he's the focus of thousands of years of Prophecy that provide a name -- and that name alone is one to incite rejection and repression.

[Neilbert]

Maybe after the fall, but she was a bit of a purist before she went over to the shadow. There's nothing to suggest sadism in Garendal that I've seen.

It's how her personality changed that make me believe she was turned by a 13/13. Everything about her was twisted (her love of nature, simplicity, and purity) to what she is today. Not going outdoors at all, loving the ornate and lavish, and screwing 24/7.

He's been scrunching up his eyes, sticking his fingers in his ears and shouting "la-la-la-la-la, you can't make me be that" right from the beginning and there was never a moment of choice involved in that reaction.

Oh, ok, because what you described isn't a choice now?

[Terez]

I'm not sure what your point about determinism is in regard to this particular subject, but in general terms, it's probably a better description of the WOT Cosmology than Predestinationism. My point about determinism is that just because your conscious actions are influenced by other things, things you might not even be aware of, doesn't make them unconscious. I won't get into the "free will" argument, but if you are aware that you are doing something, then it's conscious, whether or not you put much conscious thought into the action beforehand or not. You call it "instinctive" because it's a natural reaction, and that's fine, but it's not an unconscious action, and the action undeniably takes effort on Rand's part, despite the subconscious influences.

The distinction and separation between conscious and subconscious isn't particularly sharp, but my point here is that Rand did not make a choice to reject and suppress thepast life memories, because that would imply that he knew enough about them to make that choice. My point is that he consciously denies Lews Therin, but he also consciously suppresses Lews Therin's memories when they bother him. He does this when he reduces the "voice" to the sound of a fly buzzing, and he does it here:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

Ilyena, my love, forgive me!

The Void trembled; for an instant Rand teetered on the brink of destruction. Waves of the One Power crashed through him in a froth of fear; the taint seemed to solidify around his heart, a reeking stone.

Clutching the rail until his knuckles ached, he forced himself back to calmness, forced the emptiness to hold. Thereafter he refused to listen to the thoughts in his head. Instead he concentrated everything on channeling, on methodically searing one hill after another. That's a clear-cut case of conscious suppression. Doesn't change the fact that later on that same day he was unconsciously using Lews Therin's memories whether or not he liked it, but the memory about Ilyena caused him to consciously suppress (or ignore, if you prefer) the memories.

[Josh1337]

I've always been a fan of the theory that Lews Therin's personality is sharing bodies/souls with Rand

In my opinion one of these personalities will be removed from Rand during or shortly after the Last Battle, which also tends to make me lean toward the "Rand not being able to channel after the Last Battle" theory, because in my opinion if he can't channel, the taint and Lews Therin will be removed from him for good, and Lews Therin can finally rest in piece

[Terez]

I've always been a fan of the theory that Lews Therin's personality is sharing bodies/souls with Rand

In my opinion one of these personalities will be removed from Rand during or shortly after the Last Battle, which also tends to make me lean toward the "Rand not being able to channel after the Last Battle" theory, because in my opinion if he can't channel, the taint and Lews Therin will be removed from him for good, and Lews Therin can finally rest in piece
Meh, that logic has a lot of leaps in it. For one thing, the prophecies highly suggest that Rand will have to deal with his Lews Therin problem before the Last Battle to have a chance of winning. And although death would certainly take care of that problem (ignoring the prophecies that suggest that would be too late), I don't see any reason to assume that Rand not being able to channel would take care of the problem, and RJ said straight out that removing the taint from saidin did not cause all of the previous problems caused by the taint to go away.

Also, not sure what you mean by "sharing" the body and soul. Do you think that Lews Therin is a sentient entity separate from Rand?

[Weird Harold]

You call it "instinctive" because it's a natural reaction, and that's fine, but it's not an unconscious action, and the action undeniably takes effort on Rand's part, despite the subconscious influences.

You're not understanding my point that Rand doesn't have a 'choice' about repressing the memories or the memories surfacing -- he has no control over the process and he did not choose to create an 'imaginary friend' to to blame them on.

It is your constant implication that Rand created the LTT pesonality as a conscious choice that I disagree with. Rand had no more choice in rejecting the LTT memories because he did not, and still doesn't, know enough about past life memories to understand what was happening to him.

[Terez]

You're not understanding my point that Rand doesn't have a 'choice' about repressing the memories or the memories surfacing -- he has no control over the process and he did not choose to create an 'imaginary friend' to to blame them on.
I understand all that, and I have never said otherwise. I didn't say otherwise in the first place when you started arguing with me. You said I implied that Rand created Lews Therin consciously, which I did not - I even point out often that it's a subconscious process. That doesn't mean that there is no effort on Rand's part to suppress. It just means that he did not consciously create the construct. I don't know why you are still confused about this; it's really clear.

[GonzoTheGreat]

This is, by the way, before Rand confirms to Lanfear that he remembers her.Are you sure of that?
TSR, Decisions, Chapter 9

"And you loved power!"That seemed to hit home rather hard, and it was based on memory, not on what Rand could have learned from Moiraine.

I've always thought that in her talk with Graendal, Lanfear was keeping back how much she knew about Rand/LTT, because she had no intention in giving her rival (for power) any more information than absolutely necessary for her own purposes.

[Terez]

Are you sure of that?
Yeah - she was a little freaked out the first time, but she "recovered quickly", and judging by her reaction to the time in The Fires of Heaven Chapter 6, she had blown it off, probably because there wasn't really anything in what he said to confirm that he remembered her.

[Weird Harold]

You said I implied that Rand created Lews Therin consciously, which I did not - I even point out often that it's a subconscious process.

Your explanations are filled with references to Rand's conscious suppression/rejection, far more than there are token mentions that it is a subsoncsious process.

Your main disagreement with me has been that Rand is making an effort and consciously denying that he is LTT. It is not the conscous denials that are causing his problem, it is the subconscious fears and desperate need to hold onto his self-image which drive the denials that is causing his problem.

I'm reasonably sure that you understand the problem, but your emphasis on Rand consciously rejecting LTT gives the impression that you think it is a conscious choice on Rand's part to create an 'imaginary friend' to blame things on.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yeah - she was a little freaked out the first time, but she "recovered quickly", and judging by her reaction to the time in The Fires of Heaven Chapter 6, she had blown it off, probably because there wasn't really anything in what he said to confirm that he remembered her.All right, yet another example:
TSR, A Breaking in the Three Fold Land, Chapter 57

With the Power he folded reality, bent a small patch of what was. A door opened beneath the dome in front of him. That was the only way to describe it. An opening into darkness, into somewhere else.
"You do remember a few things, it seems." She eyed the doorway, shifted that suddenly suspicious gaze to him. "Why are you so anxious? What is in Rhuidean?"And yet another one:
TSR, The Traps of Rhuidean, Chapter 58

Lanfear stared at Rand, too. For the first time ever that he had seen, she looked uncertain. "How much do you remember, Lews Therin? How much is you, and how much the shepherd? This is the sort of plan you might have devised when we —" Drawing a deep breath, she turned her head to Asmodean. "Yes, they will believe me. When I tell them you went over to Lews Therin. Everyone knows you will leap wherever you think your best chance lies. There." She nodded to herself in satisfaction. "Another little present for you, Lews Therin. That shield will allow a trickle through, enough for him to teach. It will dissipate with time, but he'll not be able to challenge you for months, and by that time he will have no choice but to remain with you. He was never very good at breaking through a shield; you must be willing to accept pain, and he never could."

[Terez]

Your explanations are filled with references to Rand's conscious suppression/rejection, far more than there are token mentions that it is a subsoncsious process.
Because he consciously suppresses and rejects the memories. Get it through your thick skull that this does not imply that he consciously created the persona. I'm done with you, too.

[Terez]

All right, yet another example:
And yet another one:
Did you notice that in the last one you gave, she's still questioning?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Of course she's questioning. She is both hoping and fearing that he really is LTT entirely. Hoping, because that's who she wants to hook up with. Fearing, because of the possibility that he might dump her again for some blonde bimbo.
If only she'd been smart enough to bleach her hair, then all her problems would have been solved at one stroke. (Or a few more. Perhaps she had to brush something into her hair. For best results, follow the labelling on the package.)

[Terez]

Of course she's questioning. She is both hoping and fearing that he really is LTT entirely.
That has been the case since before he showed the first sign of remembering anything. In any case, it wasn't confirmed to her that he remembered anything until The Fires of Heaven chapter 6. And after it was confirmed to her, she didn't keep it a secret. In that chapter, she even refers to what Graendal said in the prologue - that maybe Rand really was Lews Therin.

[Neilbert]

Your explanations are filled with references to Rand's conscious suppression/rejection, far more than there are token mentions that it is a subsoncsious process.

What the hell kind of an author details subconscious process? They are subconscious, they can't be real to the reader if they are being explained, that's the point of the subconscious, you don't get it explained. Nobody goes through life paying attention to their subconscious. As soon as Rand starts detailing his subconscious thoughts not only have we broken the illusion of close third perspective, we have started reading a psychology novel, and while WoT is heavily laced with psychology (probably out of a desire for RJ to create realistic characters), it is not a psychology novel. You would not find it in the psych section at a book store, and you will not commonly find WoT referd to as psychological fiction.

[Terez]

.
Profundity!

[Weird Harold]

What the hell kind of an author details subconscious process?

A good author. :D

One who want his readers to understand that a character is going crazy because he is afraid of going crazy -- like RJ.

Or an author like me, whose fiction is unsuitable for a family board but deals with primal urges and subconscious drives that impinge on a characters awareness and reactions. I don't write psycho-thrillers, I write erotica -- or porn, depending on your prejudices -- and "detailing the subconscious process" is a large part of writing believable characters; especially when the character doesn't know why they do something, but it is desireable for the reader to know why.

[Crispin's Crispian]

This part of the discussion is making me want to be unconscious.

[Terez]

Indeed.

[Neilbert]

A good author. :D

One who want his readers to understand that a character is going crazy because he is afraid of going crazy -- like RJ.

He doesn't want us to understand that, or at least he doesn't want to spell it out for us. Also, I'm just going to say "well played" and walk away, because I don't even want to touch this anymore.

Actually....
especially when the character doesn't know why they do something, but it is desireable for the reader to know why.

Are you familiar with the close third perspective? Maybe you could get Gil to explain it to you, and why RJ's writing style is not compatible with what you just wrote. I'm sure she would enjoy it.

[greatwolf]

It's more than them talking to their memories, it's that their memories are talking back. Both Cadsuane & Semirhage clearly state that:

This post is probably a bit late Frenzy, but I must point out that this is one of the strongest reasons to believe that LTT is exactly who he is. You see, what both Semi and cadsuane referred to is part of madness or pyschosis.
If at the point Rand begun hearing those voices, he became abnormal, then he is certainly mad and the "voice(s)" are part of the madness. You expect his condition to go downhill very sharply from here. You'd expect Rand killing everything insight like LTT and the hundred companions.
But he doesn't and hasn't. Cadsuane confirms later in her pov that he has a great amount of restraint. Madmen don't have rstraint. If he has been able to hold on for so long, he certainly cannot be classified pyschotic by any stretch of imagination.
However my arguement must turn back on itself. If Rand is not mad and is really sane, then LTT is a separate individual (person ) who may be mad on his own. So while it proves Rand is sane, it does not prove that LTT is sane.
In fact, if he is the same LTT from the aol, he cannot be sane without some form of intervention, i mean treatment.

[Terez]

You'd expect Rand killing everything insight like LTT and the hundred companions. This would be an extremely idiotic thing to expect. For one thing, Rand got to start all over fresh with the taint, so just because he's getting Lews Therin's hundreds of years' worth of memories doesn't mean he's going to go insane immediately just because Lews Therin was insane for a day or two. For another, Lews Therin was Healed by Ishamael before he died, so even if you could expect his madness to transfer over with his memories (which you can't), he wouldn't be insane and killing everyone.

[Crispin's Crispian]

This would be an extremely idiotic thing to expect. For one thing, Rand got to start all over fresh with the taint, so just because he's getting Lews Therin's hundreds of years' worth of memories doesn't mean he's going to go insane immediately just because Lews Therin was insane for a day or two. For another, Lews Therin was Healed by Ishamael before he died, so even if you could expect his madness to transfer over with his memories (which you can't), he wouldn't be insane and killing everyone.
But part of the construct theory (I think...maybe just barrier degradation) is that Rand has had exposure ot massively hugely gross amounts of the Taint, and that's why he gets memories where other men don't.

I'm not arguing that Rand should be apeshit insane by now, but your argument here doesn't really hold water.

[Terez]

But part of the construct theory (I think...maybe just barrier degradation)
It's not part of the construct theory. One is a theory about how Rand is getting the memories, another is a theory about whether he's got memories or a dead man invading his mind. Not sure why you would assume that they were somehow dependent on each other when it's pretty obvious that they're not.

I'm not arguing that Rand should be apeshit insane by now, but your argument here doesn't really hold water.
Don't see why not. Just because Rand has been taking in a lot of the taint doesn't mean that he's going to go insane like Lews Therin and the Hundred Companions did - they were at Shayol Ghul when it happened, so obviously their situation is different. We haven't seen anyone go insane like that, even though we've had a bunch of channeling men. Also, the taint does different things to different people, and it's possible that the only effect the taint has had on Rand is to degrade his barriers and make him a bit paranoid.

[Crispin's Crispian]

I'm not talking about Rand going crazy like LTT did, which is why I wrote:

"I'm not arguing that Rand should be apeshit insane by now..."

Your premise was that Rand is relatively new to the Taint and therefore not infected to the same level as channelers who have gone apeshit:

For one thing, Rand got to start all over fresh with the taint, so just because he's getting Lews Therin's hundreds of years' worth of memories doesn't mean he's going to go insane immediately just because Lews Therin was insane for a day or two.

For one, you're right that access to LTT's memories wouldn't mean Rand should go insane, but I don't think that was what greatwolf said.

For two, there were lots of other channelers beside LTT and the companions that went insane and broke stuff, else the Time of Madness would have been a lot shorter.

My argument is that Rand has very likely had just as much or more Taint exposure than the average Breaking-era male channeler.

As for the barrier theory and the construct being separate, I know they are. But most of the time they are argued hand-in-hand--the memories came from a broken barrier, and therefore Rand created the Voice to deal with them. If you're not a believer in the degradation theory, I apologize.

[4Alethinos]

My view is that until there is agreement about what is sentience and its relationship to the soul, there can be no agreement.

My view is that sentience, ego or person, if you will, is completely tied to the soul. That is how I see RJ's view of it as described in the series. The moment that one says that the LTT part of Rand intitiates conversation as a separate entity, then you are denying RJ's statement of one soul-two personalities.

In one sense, the LTT personality is as real as a heart attack. So is Rand's. However, Rand is also LTT reborn with all of the baggage that came with it. He is LTT's soul reborn. The Rand ego/person is the same ego/person that was LTT in the AoL.

Personality is not the person. They describe totally different aspects of being. The former is the result of genes and soul/person interacting within its environment. The latter is the id, the ego, the person, the "I am me separate from you" part.

All else is irrelevant. I am closer to the construct than I am the real view, because too many of the so-called realers mix up personality and person. That is a no-no to me. I was a very convinced two-souler who fought until RJ made his statement. Then I got the truth and was forevermore never the same. hehe

"I saw the little man who was not there. He was standing there upon the stair. He is not there again today, Oh, how I wish he would go away." :)

[Crispin's Crispian]

My view is that sentience, ego or person, if you will, is completely tied to the soul. That is how I see RJ's view of it as described in the series. The moment that one says that the LTT part of Rand intitiates conversation as a separate entity, then you are denying RJ's statement of one soul-two personalities.

Not if both personalities are tied to the same soul.


...The Rand ego/person is the same ego/person that was LTT in the AoL.

Personality is not the person. They describe totally different aspects of being. The former is the result of genes and soul/person interacting within its environment. The latter is the id, the ego, the person, the "I am me separate from you" part.

All else is irrelevant. I am closer to the construct than I am the real view, because too many of the so-called realers mix up personality and person.
This makes little sense to me. I mean, the personality vs. ego part does, but not your conclusion. I haven't yet met a Real'er who thinks that Rand is someone other than Lews Therin Telamon reborn.

4A, do you deny that Lews Therin Telamon was the last Age of Legends personality for the ego that is now Rand? To me, the simple explanation of the "Real'er" POV is that the AoL Lews Therin personality is the same as personality behind the voice in Rand's head.

RJ already confirmed that there are two personalities. The debate is whether the Lews Therin voice is a constructed personality.

[Sodas]

My view is that sentience, ego or person, if you will, is completely tied to the soul. That is how I see RJ's view of it as described in the series.

Then explain Slayer. If ego is completely tied to the soul, then how does Luc have Isam's personality?

One did live, and one did die, but both are.

[Terez]

I'm not talking about Rand going crazy like LTT did, which is why I wrote:

"I'm not arguing that Rand should be apeshit insane by now..."

Your premise was that Rand is relatively new to the Taint and therefore not infected to the same level as channelers who have gone apeshit No, my premise is that Rand started over with the taint, and the taint is running through his body, and therefore his past life's taint exposure is irrelevant to Rand's current taint exposure. Lews Therin's memories about what happened certainly affect Rand's mental state, and Rand's exposure to the taint undoubtedly interacts with Rand's experiences concerning those memories in some way that we can't accurately measure. But the fact that Lews Therin was taint-mad for a day or two has little to do with it beyond the paranoia that it causes Rand. He's only had very brief moments of what I'd call insanity, such as when he lost it with Callandor at the end of The Path of Daggers (while fighting the Seanchan with the Asha'man), or when he tried to break the seal that Taim gave him.

For one, you're right that access to LTT's memories wouldn't mean Rand should go insane, but I don't think that was what greatwolf said. I'm pretty sure that's what she said but for some reason I'm too lazy to check.

For two, there were lots of other channelers beside LTT and the companions that went insane and broke stuff, else the Time of Madness would have been a lot shorter. Sure, but how long did it take them all to get that way? Lews Therin and the Companions went apeshit on the spot but it's been a year or so for the current male channelers, and if those statistics Torval (pretty sure it was Torval, anyway) gave Rand are anything close to correct, then there don't seem to have been too many that have lost it so far.

Yeah, Rand has channeled a lot of taint, with Callandor and its flaw that magnifies the taint, and with the Choedan Kal, and that seems to have magnified the taint for Rand quite a bit because of what he was doing with it (the second time, when he had all its power rather than only half), and it's definitely a marvel that he has made it so far without going apeshit - it has always been a marvel. That's one of the things that makes the taint barrier degradation theory so believable - all that taint has to have done something.

As for the barrier theory and the construct being separate, I know they are. But most of the time they are argued hand-in-hand--the memories came from a broken barrier, and therefore Rand created the Voice to deal with them. If you're not a believer in the degradation theory, I apologize. I'm not so much a "believer" in the barrier degradation theory as just someone who acknowledges that it's logical. I don't think there's enough evidence to prove how Rand got the memories, or anything close to proof. If you'll notice, Frenzy, Isa, Gonzo, and other real'ers argue taint barrier degradation as well. Also, construct'ors such as Neil, I think WH (?), Seeker (if he's actually a construct'or - not sure about that really) and others argue against taint barrier degradation. So you're probably thinking of me and Callandor, and while it's nice to know you think so much of us, we're just two people who both happen to argue both theories which are only related to each other by association.

So, I already linked you my first theory, which I still think is somewhat logical. The only reason I've decided taint barrier degradation is more logical is what I mentioned before - that all Rand's taint has to have done something.

[Terez]

My view is that until there is agreement about what is sentience and its relationship to the soul, there can be no agreement. Yeah, that has kind of what the disagreement has been all along. The only example we have (not counting those Semirhage mentioned simply because we know next to nothing about them) is Birgitte, and of course we can't prove that Rand's little problem is unnatural by using Birgitte as evidence because Birgitte was made incarnate from the afterlife, where the soul remembers all its memories and apparently uses the appearance of the most recent one (which would be logical, as the freshest memories would feel the most comfortable, even though the older ones probably wouldn't be uncomfortable - it's Tel'aran'rhiod, and there are nice subtleties to the way your mind can dictate your appearance and environment).

But, if it had been absolutely clear that we could use Birgitte as an example of how Rand should be, then there would be nothing to discuss, and this would be boring. :)

This makes little sense to me. I mean, the personality vs. ego part does, but not your conclusion. I haven't yet met a Real'er who thinks that Rand is someone other than Lews Therin Telamon reborn. They think that Lews Therin is a separate person. They might think that Lews Therin exists both as having been reborn as Rand, and being the person trying to take over Rand's body, but something tells me that most would have a problem with the first part. That Lews Therin exists as both certainly doesn't make sense.

Then explain Slayer. The Dark One. I imagine it's something like what he does with Gray Men - one of the souls (we don't know which) is likely gone, but some sort of impression is left behind. Probably a great deal more than what Gray Men are left with, but it isn't as if we know much about how these things work anyway.

[greatwolf]

This would be an extremely idiotic thing to expect. For one thing, Rand got to start all over fresh with the taint, so just because he's getting Lews Therin's hundreds of years' worth of memories doesn't mean he's going to go insane immediately just because Lews Therin was insane for a day or two. For another, Lews Therin was Healed by Ishamael before he died, so even if you could expect his madness to transfer over with his memories (which you can't), he wouldn't be insane and killing everyone.

Sometimes your posts can be so confusing. Is it a talent? :) But I don't know if you bothered to read my post at all. I'll repost the relevant bit,

If at the point Rand begun hearing those voices, he became abnormal, then he is certainly mad and the "voice(s)" are part of the madness. You expect his condition to go downhill very sharply from here. You'd expect Rand killing everything insight like LTT and the hundred companions..

You'll notice I was speaking of a progression. If Rand was "mad" enough to construct a voice in his head as far back as the episode in the stone (TSR), then how come he hasn't gone further downhill or even over the brink by now?

There will be many theories concerning the Rand/LTT situation until it is made clear. But what you're advocating is a poor buy. But I still give you the kudos for persistent salemanship though. Good luck.

[Terez]

I don't know if you bothered to read my post at all.
I usually don't, I'll admit. I wonder why...

If Rand was "mad" enough to construct a voice in his head as far back as the episode in the stone (TSR)
He doesn't have to be "mad" to construct the voice subconsciously. He just has to have a strong enough motive.

then how come he hasn't gone further downhill or even over the brink by now?
Because he's got an important job to do. He can't go crazy till it's done with.

[Frenzy]

In that chapter, she even refers to what Graendal said in the prologue - that maybe Rand really was Lews Therin.
What we haven't heard is Prophecies from the Second Age. Granted Foretelling was as crappy back then as it is in current times, why haven't we seen or heard about any prophecies dealing with the end of the AoL? You'd think that would figure largely in the Pattern. i suppose they're all destroyed, if they even existed. So Graendal's assertion that Rand is THE first person reborn according to prophecy is a thin argument at best.

But that isn't the argument we're having.

Eye of the World CHAPTER: Prologue - Dragonmount (LTT speaking)
"Ilyena! My love, where are you?

...

"Light, forgive me! Ilyena!"
Fires of Heaven CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day
Ilyena, my love, forgive me!

Fires of Heaven CHAPTER: 52 - Choices
Ilyena, forgive me!

Lord of Chaos CHAPTER: 3 - A Woman's Eyes
forgive me, Ilyena,
If the voice of LTT in Rand's head is made up, then why does he exactly like Lews Therin from the once scene where we actually see him?

[Weird Harold]

If the voice of LTT in Rand's head is made up, then why does he exactly like Lews Therin from the once scene where we actually see him?

Because that is the most recent and, arguably the strongest memory on the LTT portion of the soul?

[Terez]

What we haven't heard is Prophecies from the Second Age. Granted Foretelling was as crappy back then as it is in current times, why haven't we seen or heard about any prophecies dealing with the end of the AoL? You'd think that would figure largely in the Pattern. i suppose they're all destroyed, if they even existed. So Graendal's assertion that Rand is THE first person reborn according to prophecy is a thin argument at best.

But that isn't the argument we're having. Indeed it isn't. But the only prophecies we know of from the Age of Legends are the ones that were given at the end of it, which I suppose would technically be during the Breaking. So maybe Graendal spoke truth. Her companions would have known if she hadn't been - after all, if there were prophecies in the Age of Legends, Graendal would be no more likely to know of it than the others. And when Rand called Lanfear "Mierin" and made it really clear to her that he remembered, it's no surprise that Graendal's words from the prologue came to Lanfear's mind, and caused her to consider that maybe Rand really was Lews Therin.

If the voice of LTT in Rand's head is made up, then why does he exactly like Lews Therin from the once scene where we actually see him? Rand has Lews Therin's memories, and the memories about Ilyena are the strongest of those memories, probably more for the emotional baggage they come with than for the fact that they're the most recent of Lews Therin's memories. Since Rand has access to those memories, I'm not really sure why you think that any incidental accuracy is evidence that Lews Therin is a sentient, separate being.

I've already discussed several times in this thread why those particular thoughts about Ilyena end up as part of the "Lews Therin" persona (which is, after all, partially constructed from Lews Therin's memories and elements of his personality). They are the thoughts that Rand least desires to embrace, because they hold the most pain (as was clearly shown in the "Choices" passage):

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 52 - Choices

Lanfear staggered, her eyes going from the women to him, dark pools of black fire. "You are mine, Lews Therin! Mine!"

"No." Rand's voice seemed to come to his ears down a mile-long tunnel. Distract her from the girls. He kept moving forward, did not look back. "I was never yours, Mierin. I will always belong to Ilyena." The Void quivered with sorrow and loss. And with desperation, as he fought something besides the scouring of saidin. For a moment he hung balanced. I am Rand al'Thor. And, Ilyena, ever and always my heart. Balanced on a razor edge. I am Rand al'Thor! Other thoughts tried to well up, a fountain of them, of Ilyena, of Mierin, of what he could do to defeat her. He forced them down, even the last. If he came down on the wrong side... I am Rand al'Thor! "Your name is Lanfear, and I'll die before I love one of the Forsaken."

Something that might have been anguish crossed her face; then it was a marble mask once more. "If you are not mine," she said coldly, "then you are dead." Rand is fighting his own emotions and "Lews Therin's" at the same time. Weird, huh? Maybe they're all just Rand's emotions.

That was shown very clearly in the passage from "This Place, This Day" as well:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 43 - This Place, This Day

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

Ilyena, my love, forgive me!

The Void trembled; for an instant Rand teetered on the brink of destruction. Waves of the One Power crashed through him in a froth of fear; the taint seemed to solidify around his heart, a reeking stone.

Clutching the rail until his knuckles ached, he forced himself back to calmness, forced the emptiness to hold. Thereafter he refused to listen to the thoughts in his head. Instead he concentrated everything on channeling, on methodically searing one hill after another. See how that works? Rand had no problem with the memory that gave him a nice new weave to use against the Shaido. But when the thought about Ilyena surfaced, he had a problem with it. This is before Rand has a really developed perception of "the voice" - he doesn't really think of Lews Therin as being sentient until Lord of Chaos - but already you can see the motives that led to the construction of the persona.

Rand fears that he will do the same thing again:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 54 - To Caemlyn

He channeled, and a gateway opened in the same way it had in the courtyard in Cairhien. The angle of the sun had hardly changed, but here early-morning light shone on a paved street, and a rising slope patched brown with drought-killed grass and wildflowers, a slope topped by a stone wall two spans high or more, the stones worked rough so it seemed something natural. Above that wall he could see the golden domes of the Royal Palace of Andor, a few of the pale spires topped with banners rippling the White Lion on a breeze. On the other side of that wall was the garden where he had first met Elayne.

Blue eyes floated accusingly outside the Void, the darting memory of kisses stolen in Tear, the memory of a letter laying her heart and soul at his feet, of messages borne by Egwene professing love. What would she say if she ever learned about Aviendha, about that night together in the snow hut? Memory of another letter, icily spurning him, a queen condemning a swineherd to outer darkness. It did not matter. Lan was right. But he wanted... What? Who? Blue eyes, and green, and dark brown. Elayne, who maybe loved him and maybe could not make up her mind? Aviendha, who taunted him with what she would not let him touch? Min, who laughed at him, thought him a wool-headed fool? All that flashed along the boundaries of the Void. He tried to ignore it, to ignore anguished memories of another blue-eyed woman, lying dead in a palace corridor, so long ago. Rand ignores those memories. RJ says it straight out, here. And it's easy to see why. No one ever said the memories weren't genuine, or that the Lews Therin persona doesn't sometimes resemble the real Lews Therin. Just that Rand is Lews Therin, and the persona is his way of pretending otherwise. "Lews Therin" is not a sentient, separate being - the persona is a delusion. Lews Therin was reborn as Rand, and he is Rand, deep down. Rand just refuses to acknowledge it.

[Neilbert]

If the voice of LTT in Rand's head is made up, then why does he exactly like Lews Therin from the once scene where we actually see him?

For the same reason I don't imagine myself to be, or think of myself as, a six year old. (memories come timestamped)

[Sodas]

If the voice of LTT in Rand's head is made up, then why does he exactly like Lews Therin from the once scene where we actually see him?

Or better way to phrase the question, if Rand is so crazy and taint exposed, how is it possible he didn't *&%^ up LTT's memories and create a different persona?

[Terez]

Or better way to phrase the question
No, it isn't; it's an idiotic way to phrase it.

if Rand is so crazy and taint exposed, how is it possible he didn't *&%^ up LTT's memories and create a different persona?
The memories have been verified. We all know that. Beyond that, it doesn't really matter what "different" traits are added to the persona - it's still Rand's way of disassociating himself from Lews Therin's memories.

[Crispin's Crispian]

They think that Lews Therin is a separate person. They might think that Lews Therin exists both as having been reborn as Rand, and being the person trying to take over Rand's body, but something tells me that most would have a problem with the first part. That Lews Therin exists as both certainly doesn't make sense.
Maybe we're talking semantics about this part. For Real'ers, the Voice represents a separate personality, but it's still part of the soul/archetype/Hero of which Rand is the latest incarnation. Rand is clearly not Lews Therin Telamon--he's Rand al'Thor, which is why he looks different, probably has different mannerisms, and likes girls in boy pants (then again, who doesn't?). But Rand is the latest incarnation of the Hero of which Lews Therin was the last incarnation.

Separate people, yes. Same soul.

It's really not that hard to understand. Two personalities, just like RJ said:

They have 1 soul with 2 personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I came hobbled together.



I was just reading through the interview database and found the once piece of evidence no Real'er has ever really explained, and I don't remember whether the constructors posted it too. I have Callandor's theory saved to my computer here, I think. I'll have to check it out.

[Terez]

Maybe we're talking semantics about this part. For Real'ers, the Voice represents a separate personality, but it's still part of the soul/archetype/Hero of which Rand is the latest incarnation. Rand is clearly not Lews Therin Telamon
Then why does he remember being Lews Therin? Why does he feel pain when he remembers Ilyena? Why is he starting to act more and more like Lews Therin?

I was just reading through the interview database and found the once piece of evidence no Real'er has ever really explained, and I don't remember whether the constructors posted it too.
We probably did, at one point or another. It's not like there's anything in there I'm unaware of. ;)

I have Callandor's theory saved to my computer here, I think. I'll have to check it out.
Possibly the wrong place to look.

[Neilbert]

Or better way to phrase the question, if Rand is so crazy and taint exposed, how is it possible he didn't *&%^ up LTT's memories and create a different persona?

It is very possible. RJ has been coy about whether the LTT in the AoL is the exact same personality as the one inhabiting Rands head. It is highly doubtful that they are the exact same, especially considering that Rand affects LTT as much as LTT affects Rand.

Of course, this is all a strawman, because the construct argument doesn't ever say that the LTT in Rands head is the exact same as the LTT from the AoL. In fact, quite the opposite. He couldn't be both the exact same, and Rands emotional dumping ground.

One thing that becomes abundantly clear in these discussions is that Realer's apply all sorts of concepts and ideas to Construct theory that Constructer's had no desire or inclination to put into the theory in the first place.

[Frenzy]

Then why does he remember being Lews Therin? Why does he feel pain when he remembers Ilyena? Why is he starting to act more and more like Lews Therin?
Barrier degradation. :p

[Terez]

Barrier degradation. :p
Yeah, and? How is it that Rand is becoming Lews Therin again (in every way but physically), but Lews Therin is also separate and talking to him? Because you can't deny that it's definitely both.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Yeah, and? How is it that Rand is becoming Lews Therin again (in every way but physically), but Lews Therin is also separate and talking to him? Because you can't deny that it's definitely both.
Why does it matter? They both share a set of memories and the same soul, so it's no wonder Rand should start acting more like Lews Therin. Moreover, we've already established that AOL Lews Therin had a different personality than Third Age Rand, which means he was already separate. Real'ers just think that separate personality is talking to Rand, in addition to Rand having access to the memory pool.

[Neilbert]

Yes but the problem with that is that I see nothing that suggests that LTT is actually a different person than Rand. They both care about the same things, they are both affected by the same stresses, and they respond the same to those stresses. Sure you have to go digging for Rand's true feelings, but when you can find them they always match up with LTT.

Try asking Min who is afraid of getting put back in the box, Rand or LTT.

For the record Rand is not becoming LTT. We got a glimpse down that path and it leads nowhere good.

[GonzoTheGreat]

LTT does not share Rand's sensibilities about the killing of women. Rand does not run away gibbering in panic when Cadsuane appears.
There are differences noticeable, if you don't close your eyes to them.

[Sodas]

Real'ers just think that separate personality is talking to Rand, in addition to Rand having access to the memory pool.

Yep.

The viewings?" She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said, "There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and...." Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn't. I— Why are you grinning? This isn't a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."
"I'm grinning because you've given me very good news," he said, touching her cheek. The other man had to be Lews Therin. I'm not just insane and hearing voices, he thought, jubilant. One lived and one died, but he had known for a long time that he was going to die. At least he was not mad. Or not as far mad as he had feared. There was still the temper he could barely control. "You see, I— "

[Weird Harold]

Yep.
How does Rand's misinterpretation of Min's viewing about the consequences of crossing balefire beams with Moridin prove anything about Rand's sanity or LTT's voice?

[Sodas]

I would consider defining LTT as "the other man" pretty relevant to wiether or not the personalities are the same.

[Weird Harold]

I would consider defining LTT as "the other man" pretty relevant to wiether or not the personalities are the same.

Not when it is an erroneous definition.

Rand has spent a lot of "effort" setting up the conditions that forced his subcosncious to create an "invisible friend to blame things on" so of course he jumps to the wrong conclusion when Min tells him that he is going to merge with another man and only one will survive. But his misunderstanding of the situation as "proof" that he's not going crazy has no bearing on whether he is or is not crazy; it's just another facet of the denial that created the LTT voice in the first place.

[Terez]

Rand has spent a lot of "effort" setting up the conditions that forced his subcosncious to create an "invisible friend to blame things on"
:D

[Crispin's Crispian]

So wait....Lews Therin is a leprechaun? Or...Rand is Danny?

"Rand isn't here Mrs. Torrance..."

[Sodas]

Not when it is an erroneous definition.

Rand has spent a lot of "effort" setting up the conditions that forced his subcosncious to create an "invisible friend to blame things on" so of course he jumps to the wrong conclusion when Min tells him that he is going to merge with another man and only one will survive. But his misunderstanding of the situation as "proof" that he's not going crazy has no bearing on whether he is or is not crazy; it's just another facet of the denial that created the LTT voice in the first place.

I don't know where you are getting anything on proving he's not crazy or not.

The point is that Rand recognizes the voice as an independent personality. Nielbert's comment that they aren't much different in personality is clearly refuted by the texts.

Or are you arguing that Nielbert was right?

In anycase, i don't know how you can say that Rand's misunderstanding is part of his denial of LTT. If anything, it's acceptance. He accepts LTT as real at that point in time.

( And no, LTT does not come back. )

Pretty much speaks against the idea that acceptance and denial has anything to do with LTT coming and going.

[Terez]

For the record Rand is not becoming LTT. We got a glimpse down that path and it leads nowhere good.
Dunno what you're talking about. Just because Moiraine saw that path from the docks doesn't refute the fact that Rand has Lews Therin's memories, exhibits Lews Therin's personality traits and characteristics, and feels Lews Therin's pain. Beyond the fact that he's in denial (which is what the difference would have been with Lanfear, apparently), for all intents and purposes, he is becoming Lews Therin. No telling what Lanfear would have done to him to make him call himself Lews Therin, but it's not really all that relevant.

[Neilbert]

The point is that Rand recognizes the voice as an independent personality. Nielbert's comment that they aren't much different in personality is clearly refuted by the texts.

Since it's so clear like that I don't suppose you could post any evidence or supporting arguments?

PS. Neilbert

[Terez]

Pretty much speaks against the idea that acceptance and denial has anything to do with LTT coming and going.
No it doesn't, because at that point, Rand was in denial that he was going mad. Cadsuane convinced him (on a subconscious level, obviously) that only madmen hear voices. It makes a great deal more sense than Lews Therin deciding to go away because of what Cadsuane said. And the way that Lews Therin "came back" also makes a great deal more sense in the context of the construct theory - Rand was having a hard time fighting the urge to kill Torval, so "Lews Therin" came back to rant in his head about killing him so that Rand could suppress his murderous tendencies.

[Neilbert]

Dunno what you're talking about.

Eh, I suppose it's a minor distinction. LTT is certainly affecting who Rand is, the Creator as a gardener quote makes that one pretty clear, but Rand is not going to become the LTT we saw in the Prologue of TEotW. LTT can't get rid of Rand any easier than Rand can get rid of LTT, both are here to stay in some form or another.

[Terez]

Yeah, he's not becoming Lews Therin in the sense that Rand is going away. He's becoming Lews Therin in the sense that Birgitte is all of her lives that she can remember. Except for the angst, of course.

[Sodas]

Since it's so clear like that I don't suppose you could post any evidence or supporting arguments?

PS. Neilbert

Or you could just look at Gonzo's post #150 that pointed out two of such evidence / supporting arguments.

[Weird Harold]

In anycase, i don't know how you can say that Rand's misunderstanding is part of his denial of LTT. If anything, it's acceptance. He accepts LTT as real at that point in time.


The entire real/construct debate consist of whther we should believe Rand that there is another person in his head or if LTT is an imaginary friend Rand's subcoscious built for him to account for all of the "bad memories" that won't stay suppressed.

Of course Rand accepts LTT as real. He has to or admit that he's lost the battle against madness. That doesn't mean Rand has any clue whether he's Mad or Possessed.

[Terez]

Of course Rand accepts LTT as real. He has to or admit that he's lost the battle against madness.
I don't see how it would be an acknowledgment of madness for Rand to accept that Lews Therin is a part of him.

[Sodas]

The entire real/construct debate consist of whther we should believe Rand that there is another person in his head or if LTT is an imaginary friend Rand's subcoscious built for him to account for all of the "bad memories" that won't stay suppressed.

Well, it took a tangent into the question of LTT personality's matching the one we currently see in Rand's head.

[Neilbert]

Or you could just look at Gonzo's post #150 that pointed out two of such evidence / supporting arguments.

LTT does not share Rand's sensibilities about the killing of women. Rand does not run away gibbering in panic when Cadsuane appears.
There are differences noticeable, if you don't close your eyes to them.

First of all, Ilyena contributes to Rand's attitude toward women as much as his upbringing and Moiraine, so no dice there. Secondly, there is much to suggest that Rand and LTT do in fact share the same attitudes toward women, the Falme scene for starters.

And as to Cadsuane, yes he does. Cadsuane scares the shit out of both Rand and LTT, and the only reason Rand tolerates Cadsuane is because Min told him to.

[Terez]

Rand expresses his fears about Cadsuane (and all Aes Sedai) through Lews Therin. That much is really obvious.

The only time Lews Therin has ever condoned killing a woman was at the docks with Lanfear. If Rand was sane, he would have agreed. But like Neil said, the whole Ilyena thing contributes to Rand's irrational attitude about that. He knew deep down that killing Lanfear was the logical thing to do, but his paranoia won out in that scene.

[Neilbert]

Something also to consider. Lanfear spent as much time as Ishamael trying to convert LTT, and she survived it. It's possible that LTT had a hard time with the idea too, and it has been mentioned that LTT was a sop toward women.

[Weird Harold]

I don't see how it would be an acknowledgment of madness for Rand to accept that Lews Therin is a part of him.
Accepting that LTT is "a part of him" would be the cure for Rand's madness, but it isn't the same thing as admitting that LTT is truly a sign of Madness rather than Possession, which would be the first step in reaching that cure.

We have to remember that Rand hasn't had the benefit of reading RJ's interviews and blog -- as far as RAnd knows, Posession is still a possibility and is probably preferable to his actual condition from his perspective.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Oh for the days when we still discussed interesting things, such as Taimandred!

[Neilbert]

Why does RJ have to kill all the really good theories?

[Terez]

Accepting that LTT is "a part of him" would be the cure for Rand's madness, but it isn't the same thing as admitting that LTT is truly a sign of Madness rather than Possession, which would be the first step in reaching that cure.

We have to remember that Rand hasn't had the benefit of reading RJ's interviews and blog -- as far as RAnd knows, Posession is still a possibility and is probably preferable to his actual condition from his perspective.
Yeah, I know all that. I just think it's more accurate to say that Rand has to convince himself that Lews Therin is "real" to avoid admitting that he is Lews Therin, rather than to avoid thinking that he's mad. The veracity of the memories is enough to show Rand that the memories aren't a sign of madness.

[Terez]

Oh for the days when we still discussed interesting things, such as Taimandred!
It would be a lot more interesting if you weren't clinging to the boring interpretation. ;)

[WinespringBrother]

That would make things interesting.

[Terez]

Isa champions the real'ers, Bela champions the construct'ors. But Bela no longer has a premium account, so he can't admit members...

[WinespringBrother]

Thanks for the info, Terez.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Yeah, he's not becoming Lews Therin in the sense that Rand is going away. He's becoming Lews Therin in the sense that Birgitte is all of her lives that she can remember. Except for the angst, of course.
In that case, I don't see the problem with the Real theory. Rand is just as real as the Voice, and they are both parts of the whole. They just happen to be talking to each other before they integrate into the One.

Really--if Rand is slowly integrating into the One, it shows that Rand is currently a separate entity from the One. Or rather, he's an distinct facet of the One. Lews Therin was also a distinct facet. In that sense, Rand != Lews Therin, so having separate personalities sharing a soul and memories isn't that big of a deal.

[Terez]

In that case, I don't see the problem with the Real theory. Rand is just as real as the Voice, and they are both parts of the whole. They just happen to be talking to each other before they integrate into the One.

Really--if Rand is slowly integrating into the One, it shows that Rand is currently a separate entity from the One. Or rather, he's an distinct facet of the One. Lews Therin was also a distinct facet. In that sense, Rand != Lews Therin, so having separate personalities sharing a soul and memories isn't that big of a deal.
I've said it a billion times, and I'll say it again - it's an issue of consciousness, sentience. There is only one of those per soul.

[Crispin's Crispian]

I've said it a billion times, and I'll say it again - it's an issue of consciousness, sentience. There is only one of those per soul.
:rolleyes:

That's the point, isn't it? Real'ers say that, in Rand's case, there are two.

A billion and one iterations of your argument doesn't prove anything.

[Weird Harold]

The veracity of the memories is enough to show Rand that the memories aren't a sign of madness.

Why should Rand think any such thing? He has no way of knowing that being able to access past-life memories isn't a symptom of madness. To the contrary, he has Cadsuane's cryptic question about hearing voices to suggest that LTT is indeed a symptom of madness, no matter how useful or true the memories might be.

[Terez]

That's the point, isn't it? Real'ers say that, in Rand's case, there are two.

A billion and one iterations of your argument doesn't prove anything.
Mutt, you're being dense. Of course that's the argument. You said that there was no difference in my arguments and the real'er theory, or whatever - I reiterated the difference. :rolleyes:

[GonzoTheGreat]

I've said it a billion times, and I'll say it again - it's an issue of consciousness, sentience. There is only one of those per soul.I would say that Gollum is a very clear example of two sentiences for one soul. I do admit that it is uncertain wether both have a conscience.

[Crispin's Crispian]

I'm not being dense, you just didn't reiterate it very well.

You said Rand is becoming Lews Therin, in the sense that he's becoming, like Birgitte, the integrated Hero that has access to all the memories*.

I simply pointed out the resulting implication--Rand's consciousness is not fully integrated, which means Rand's consciousness is distinct from the whole. If that's true, then the original Lews Therin in the AoL was also distinct from the whole. Therefore the argument that the Voice can't be real because Rand is the same as Lews Therin holds no water. Both consciousnesses were distinct from the whole, and from one another.

Another question--why is Rand slowly becoming integrated? Is this something that eventually happens to all Heroes, or is it only due to his past life memory leakage? I think Tel'aran'rhiod has to come into play again. If Rand is slowly integrating his own consciousness into the whole by remembering things from Lews Therin, T'A'R seems like a much better candidate than the Taint. Why would the Taint have anything to do with old memories? We already know that the Hero in T'A'R remembers everything... Or maybe it's something to do with channeling Tainted saidin in T'A'R. I don't guess we'll ever find out.




*Again, interesting that he only remembers Lews Therin, and not anything prior, as opposed to Birgitte who remembers a bunch of past incarnations.

[Terez]

Another question--why is Rand slowly becoming integrated?
In some ways he's not, really. He's just becoming a bit desensitized to the memories as time goes on, in some ways. But I think the memories are becoming a bit more clear and accessible as time goes on, same way Birgitte's are fading.

Is this something that eventually happens to all Heroes
I highly doubt it. There's certainly no evidence that other Heroes experience the same thing when they're incarnate.

Again, interesting that he only remembers Lews Therin, and not anything prior, as opposed to Birgitte who remembers a bunch of past incarnations.
Again, it's common sense. Of course he's only remembering the most recent memories, the SAME as Birgitte, who is losing her older ones. :rolleyes:

[Sodas]

Accepting that LTT is "a part of him" would be the cure for Rand's madness,

Seriously? You mean, if he just closes his eyes hard enough like Hiro and accepts LTT as being part of him, then damn !!! Boom!!! HE'S HEALED!

That's looney. If Rand were to accept LTT as part of him then Rand would be LTT. Because LTT would take over. He has tried to take over Rand how many times now?

[Belazamon]

Seriously? You mean, if he just closes his eyes hard enough like Hiro and accepts LTT as being part of him, then damn !!! Boom!!! HE'S HEALED!

Straw men go down so easily.

[Sodas]

Straw men go down so easily.
Please, this is a family website.

[Neilbert]

I would say that Gollum is a very clear example of two sentiences for one soul. I do admit that it is uncertain wether both have a conscience.

I would argue with your conclusions, and flat out dismiss "very clear".

[Weird Harold]

Accepting that LTT is "a part of him" would be the cure for Rand's madness, Seriously? You mean, if he just closes his eyes hard enough like Hiro and accepts LTT as being part of him, then damn !!! Boom!!! HE'S HEALED!

It's not quite that simple, but yes, that's what Semirhage meant by "reintegration."

If Rand can accept that LTT is a part of who "Rand" is and integrate those memories and experiences, LTT will no longer exist as a separate persoanlity who can "take over."

[GonzoTheGreat]

It's not quite that simple, but yes, that's what Semirhage meant by "reintegration."

If Rand can accept that LTT is a part of who "Rand" is and integrate those memories and experiences, LTT will no longer exist as a separate persoanlity who can "take over."Assuming, of course, that LTT isn't real after all. If he is just as much sentient as Rand, then it would only work out well if they both realised it at the same time, and thus both cooperated. Otherwise, Rand would be lost totally, and LTT would be all that was left. Complete with madness and occasional geocidal* episodes, apparently.

* I like that word. Is it a real one, or did I just make it up?

[Sarevok]

Complete with madness and occasional geocidal* episodes, apparently.

* I like that word. Is it a real one, or did I just make it up?
I think the word you're looking for is "seismic" (sp?). ;)

[GonzoTheGreat]

Nope. Geocidal is a variation on homicidal. The latter means killing a human, the former means killing the Earth. (Well, close enough, at least. If you try, you can probably give an even more accurate definition.)
Perhaps cosmicidal would've been more accurate, but that doesn't sound good, I think.

[Weird Harold]

Assuming, of course, that LTT isn't real after all. ...

There has never been a single doubt in my mind that LTT was independent of Rand -- or "real" and "sentient" in the way you mean them.

the LTT persona has been compartmentalized so thoroughly that he is so close to "Real" and "Sentient" that the distinction becomes nearly meaningless -- like asking if a radio broadcast is "real or memorex;" unless ther eadio station tells you, there is no way to distinguish between live and recorded programs.

[Terez]

I hate the end of the semester. :(

[Marie Curie 7]

I hate the end of the semester. :(

Me too. Well, not the very end, when everything is all done. But this short period of time leading up to the end...UGH!

[Sodas]

If Rand can accept that LTT is a part of who "Rand" is and integrate those memories and experiences, LTT will no longer exist as a separate persoanlity who can "take over."
I think that is going to be a problem, considering that LTT is not Rand. That would be like trying to burn two cd images over one another on the same cd ~ it becomes gibberish. Seems to me your "solution" would make the situation exponentially worse.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Which is what Semirhage says usually happens, isn't it?
Seems as though she does know what she's talking about after all.

[Weird Harold]

I think that is going to be a problem, considering that LTT is not Rand. That would be like trying to burn two cd images over one another on the same cd ~ it becomes gibberish. Seems to me your "solution" would make the situation exponentially worse.

Only if LTT is "real," which he's not. :D

Rand has to come to the same kind of integration of all past lives into a coherent whole that Birgitte had when she was first cast out of T'A'R. (which shoul dbe fairly easy since he only has the two lives to resolve instead of the many lives Birgitte had.

Birgitte is the model for a "normal" integration of multiple lives and the state Rand has to achieve to regain his sanity.

[Sodas]

Rand has to come to the same kind of integration of all past lives into a coherent whole that Birgitte had when she was first cast out of T'A'R.

Ok.

1. You are saying here that Birgitte's real personalities of antiquity came to integrate.

2. You compare it to integrating 1 personality (since only Rand exists in your intepretation).

I have to say that,

* I think it's a HUGE assumption to say that Birgitte integrated when she was pulled out of TAR. I think you have to believe that, instead of her simply being the last incarnation's personality with the entire memory set of all the past lives.

* How can you integrate with something that doesn't exist?

Either way, it makes no sense to compare that with what Graendal did. If it was so simple as ripping a Hero of out TAR, then all you would have to do is kill Rand and rip him back. End of story.

[Terez]

Yay for Sodas vs. Weird Harold!

[Weird Harold]

1. You are saying here that Birgitte's real personalities of antiquity came to integrate.


No, I'm saying that Birgitte never needed to reintegrate any past life personalities because she is, was, and remains fully integrated with all of her past lives.

Birgitte's memories are the example of the "normal" well-integrated personality that Rand needs to achieve -- whether it is re-integrating one additional personality or ten-thousand-gazillion personalities.

[Terez]

I don't blame you for declining to address 2. :D

[Weird Harold]

I don't blame you for declining to address 2. :D

I figured I'd let you address that one because he imputed your position to me.

"Just Rand" is the ideal that he needs to get to; however, it isn't the case at the moment.

What is not the case is that LTT is some "real" ghost from the AOL who is haunting Rand.

[Terez]

I figured I'd let you address that one because he imputed your position to me.
No, he didn't.

[Weird Harold]

No, he didn't.
It certainly wasn't my position, and I can't think of any other construct'or that asserts LTT is just "rand talking to himself."

[Terez]

It certainly wasn't my position, and I can't think of any other construct'or that asserts LTT is just "rand talking to himself."
Are you deliberately trying to misinterpret my position? It seems you've been going out of your way to do that lately.

[Sodas]

No, I'm saying that Birgitte never needed to reintegrate any past life personalities because she is, was, and remains fully integrated with all of her past lives.

Then that's on you. I certaintly don't believe you can integrate unique and independant personalities into some conglomerate.

And I certaintly don't believe all the personalities are stored in the Soul, for all eternity. Memories are different, but personalities die with the body (unless they become HotH).

whether it is re-integrating one additional personality

And that's bullcrap, because you guys are saying there isn't a LTT. You can't integrate with something that simply isn't there.

1 + 0 does not equal 2.

[Sodas]

It certainly wasn't my position, and I can't think of any other construct'or that asserts LTT is just "rand talking to himself."

Well, that's what it boils down to when you say Rand pulled LTT out of his ass. If you don't believe LTT is real, then there isn't another personality that Rand is talking to. It's just Rand.

And I don't read terez's posts, so don't bother. I've had her on ignore for at least a month now? Fucking awesome.

[Belazamon]

And that's bullcrap, because you guys are saying there isn't a LTT. You can't integrate with something that simply isn't there.

It just seems like all of you guys are deliberately missing each others' points, to me. I guess it's a good thing I didn't get heavily involved with this discussion after all.

[Weird Harold]

And I certaintly don't believe all the personalities are stored in the Soul, for all eternity. Memories are different, but personalities die with the body (unless they become HotH).

Then just where did a "Real" LTT personality come from? Birgitte doesn't have ten-gazillion past personalities cluttering up her head, she just has (had) memories of ten-gazillion past lives influencing a single personality.

And that's bullcrap, because you guys are saying there isn't a LTT. You can't integrate with something that simply isn't there.

I've never said that the LTT personality doesn't exist just that it is a construct of Rand's subconscious to partition and 'explain' memories and feelings Rand can't accept as belonging to him.

There is clearly a second personality there to re-integrate -- even if RJ hadn't explicitly said there were two personalities -- it just isn't LTT-from-the-AOL's personaliity recalled from some mystical, non-soul, storage place.

[Crispin's Crispian]

It just seems like all of you guys are deliberately missing each others' points, to me. I guess it's a good thing I didn't get heavily involved with this discussion after all.
I know what you mean. It's like everyone's missing the premise but continuing to argue the consequences.

[Terez]

You say "everybody" as if there are more than two people arguing right now.

[Jonai]

You say "everybody" as if there are more than two people arguing right now.

I like the 'ghost from the aol' phrase.

[Terez]

Well, duh...you're a real'er...

[Jonai]

You make 'realer' sound so dirty baby.

[Weird Harold]

Are you deliberately trying to misinterpret my position? It seems you've been going out of your way to do that lately.
You are the one who keep using the "it's just Rand talking to himself" argument. What's to misinterpret there?

[Neilbert]

You are the one who keep using the "it's just Rand talking to himself" argument. What's to misinterpret there?

This shit is on par with Sodas' eye squint thing.

[GonzoTheGreat]

You know, Taimandred's walking tree was a lot more fun.

Which makes me wonder how many even remember that one. Guess we've been at this for a while.

[Belazamon]

You know, Taimandred's walking tree was a lot more fun.

Which makes me wonder how many even remember that one. Guess we've been at this for a while.

Heh, I was just reading a very old thread that referenced the "Walking Tree Theory" the other day. Good times.

[Sodas]

Then just where did a "Real" LTT personality come from? Birgitte doesn't have ten-gazillion past personalities cluttering up her head, she just has (had) memories of ten-gazillion past lives influencing a single personality.

The LTT personality comes from the LTT Soul. It was just buried, dormant, until it was reborn. And even then, it didn't come out it's hidey hole until Rand believed in himself.

[Weird Harold]

The LTT personality comes from the LTT Soul. It was just buried, dormant, until it was reborn. And even then, it didn't come out it's hidey hole until Rand believed in himself.

Then why doesn't Birgitte have ten gazillion personalities?

There is no evidence for personalities being stored in the soul, just evidence for memories.

[Frenzy]

i prefer to think of it as reactivated rather than reborn. The taint woke him up. Hence why Birgitte and Mat aren't muttering idiots like Rand is.

[Neilbert]

The taint woke him up.

How unpleasant.

[GonzoTheGreat]

i prefer to think of it as reactivated rather than reborn. The taint woke him up. Hence why Birgitte and Mat aren't muttering idiots like Rand is.
Mat not a muttering idiot? How about this:
TFoH, Choices, Chapter 52

"The docks?" Rand said. "Moiraine, this morning of all mornings, I've no time for —"
But she was already moving down the corridor as if sure he would follow. "I have had horses readied. Even one for you, Mat, just in case." Egwene hesitated only a moment, then followed.
Rand opened his mouth to call Moiraine back. She had sworn to obey. Whatever she had to show him, he could see it another day.
"What could an hour hurt?" Mat muttered.I'd say that was a rather idiotic mutter, considering the fact that Mat already had ample examples of what another hour could mean with Rand in the vicinity.

[Sodas]

Then why doesn't Birgitte have ten gazillion personalities?

Because the books seem to make it pretty clear that she is just one personality.

There is no evidence for personalities being stored in the soul, just evidence for memories.

Right. The pattern keeps only the last personality of a Hero as a representative of that Soul in T'A'R. Once any Soul is reborn normally, it's representative personality is wiped cleaned to make way for a new personality.

LTT's Soul skipped that step.

[Weird Harold]

Because the books seem to make it pretty clear that she is just one personality.

Right. The pattern keeps only the last personality of a Hero ...

Rand is the "last personality" of the Dragon Soul and "just one personality" is what Rand needs to become.

The LTT personality should have been replaced when the Dragon Soul was Reborn with a clean slate for the new "last personality."

Of course, every incarnation should result in a very similar "personality" so integrating them into a singular personality like Birgitte's is no big thing. Distinguishing a single life's personality from any other single life's personality should be like trying to determine if a live recording of a Broadway Show was made on Tuesday or Thursday.

The LTT personality is only distinguishable from Rand's personality because it represents aspects of the basic Dragon Soul personality that Rand won't/can't accept. In fact, it could be said that neither Rand nor the LTT persona has the essential Dragon Soul Archetype because Rand's subconscious has split the Archetype in two and each only has half of the traits the Archtype should have.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Sorry T. I was referring to the thread overall. You're right, though. At this point, most of us have gone out to the patio to dig into the cooler and talk about something else.

[Sodas]

Rand is the "last personality" of the Dragon Soul and "just one personality" is what Rand needs to become.

I've already stated, that forcing LTT's personality onto Rand's will end up in catastrophy (to which I know other agreed). You clearly, think this is not only possible, but the only way for him to succeed.

So instead of just reasserting this over and over, maybe you could back it up with something actually solid?

Of course, every incarnation should result in a very similar "personality" so integrating them into a singular personality like Birgitte's is no big thing.

Bullshit. LTT and Rand are completely opposite personalities. LTT was akin to the king of the world. Rand a peasant, who understands how to milk a goat.

The LTT personality is only distinguishable from Rand's personality because it represents aspects of the basic Dragon Soul personality that Rand won't/can't accept. In fact, it could be said that neither Rand nor the LTT persona has the essential Dragon Soul Archetype because Rand's subconscious has split the Archetype in two and each only has half of the traits the Archtype should have.

And now you are talking about a made up "personality" .... :rolleyes:

[Weird Harold]

Bullshit. LTT and Rand are completely opposite personalities. LTT was akin to the king of the world. Rand a peasant, who understands how to milk a goat.

The LTT personality is only distinguishable from Rand's personality because it represents aspects of the basic Dragon Soul personality that Rand won't/can't accept. In fact, it could be said that neither Rand nor the LTT persona has the essential Dragon Soul Archetype because Rand's subconscious has split the Archetype in two and each only has half of the traits the Archtype should have.

And now you are talking about a made up "personality" .... :rolleyes:

A "made up personality" is pretty much the essence of the "Construct" theory.

As for the explanation being bullshit ---

What would you expect to get when you isolate and reject everything you can't accept about being a "pawn of fate?" If you isloate everything you don't like from everything you do like, then you wind up with two sets of polar opposites.

However, Rand and Ltt's "real" personalities should NOT be polar opposites because they both have the "Soul of a (the) Dragon."

Birgitte has the "Soul of an Archer" and all of her past lives had what could be termed the "personality of an archer."

Gaidal Cain has the "Soul of a Swordsman" and always becomes a master of a two-sword technique -- he would presumably also develop a personality suited to a swordmaster.

Perrin has the "Soul of a Blacksmith" and has the personality traits common to most fictional Blacksmiths.

Mat has the "Soul of a Gambler" or "Soul of a General" and recieved memories compatible with the character traits emodied in that archetype.

All of the main characters have identifiable archetypes associated with them -- the type of Soul they have and all of them have personalities typical of their archetype -- except Rand.

Neither the Rand persona nor the LTT persona really fit the "World Saviour" Dragon Soul archetype. LTT's real life did fit that archetype, but the LTT ppersona in Rand's head doesn't, IMHO.

[GonzoTheGreat]

TFoH, Rhuidean, Chapter 2

Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she... His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.This seems pretty clear foreshadowing that LTT is real.

Rand thinks that the Ilyena he sees in his mind here is just imaginary, but instead it is a real memory. In the same way, he thinks that LTT will be imaginary (though he does not really know at that point he's going to have all those chats with his former self), but LTT will be real too.

[Terez]

:rolleyes:

[Belazamon]

This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.

If you want to really get literal, it's foreshadowing that LTT isn't really there. ;)

[Weird Harold]

This seems pretty clear foreshadowing that LTT is real.

Rand thinks that the Ilyena he sees in his mind here is just imaginary, but instead it is a real memory. ...

I don't think anyone disputes that the memories are real memories of real events and real feelings. That doesn't mean tha the personality constructed from those memories is "real" any more than a one man play based on Will Rogers' writings and old movie clips is guaranteed to duplicate the "Real" Will Rogers.

[Neilbert]

Gonzo's just trolling. You won't find anyone who thinks LTT's memories are fake.

[Sodas]

All of the main characters have identifiable archetypes associated with them -- the type of Soul they have and all of them have personalities typical of their archetype -- except Rand.

See, the difference between us, is that when you run into your theory being proven wrong, you just keep going.

The archetype is a result. It's has nothing to do with the personality that will be made. The personality is a result of where the pattern wanted those Heroes to be.

I don't think anyone disputes that the memories are real memories of real events and real feelings.

Yes, but you can't explain where those real memories come from if not from the personality, without another, 3rd theory that is far fetched.

[Belazamon]

Yes, but you can't explain where those real memories come from if not from the personality, without another, 3rd theory that is far fetched.

That doesn't even make a minimum amount of sense. Obviously memories are not required to come bundled with personalities, else Mat and Birgitte would have Rand out-crazied by a long shot.

If that's not what you're getting at... well, it's hard to tell. You're over-summarizing peoples' arguments to such a degree that I can't tell what point you're trying to make with them.

[Weird Harold]

The archetype is a result. It's has nothing to do with the personality that will be made. The personality is a result of where the pattern wanted those Heroes to be.

The archetype has everything to do with the predisposition of a character's traits -- including the personality. In the WOT, Nature wins out over Nurture every time.

Yes, but you can't explain where those real memories come from if not from the personality, without another, 3rd theory that is far fetched.

Those real memories are embedded in the Soul, just as Birgitte has memories from every past life embedded in her soul. Why they are so strong in Rand is irrelevant to how is subconscious dealt with them; the construct theory doesn't rely on a specific explanation for why Rand has accesss to LTT's memories, only on the demonstrable fact that he does have access to them -- and access without without benefit of a discernable personality to explain them initially.

[Sodas]

Those real memories are embedded in the Soul, just as Birgitte has memories from every past life embedded in her soul. Why they are so strong in Rand is irrelevant to how is subconscious dealt with them; the construct theory doesn't rely on a specific explanation for why Rand has accesss to LTT's memories, only on the demonstrable fact that he does have access to them -- and access without without benefit of a discernable personality to explain them initially.

But isn't that how your explanation has been WH, everything irrelevant compared to the dicussion on how the subconscious behaves? Maybe you have fallen in love with your own theory.

The truth is we have yet to see a single solid answer for why a constructed LTT would have real memories. Deny it however you like. But saying that just because there isn't a single uniform answer, that makes it ok for there not to be an answer.

The archetype has everything to do with the predisposition of a character's traits -- including the personality. In the WOT, Nature wins out over Nurture every time.

Then you don't believe there is nuture in WoT? How rediculous. If everyone was the same every time, the pattern wouldn't be different every time around.

Edit : had to change some grammer. sry.

[Sodas]

That doesn't even make a minimum amount of sense. Obviously memories are not required to come bundled with personalities, else Mat and Birgitte would have Rand out-crazied by a long shot.

No, other way around. Personalities come bundled with memories, and obviously more.

It's like buying a set of headphones versus buying a blackberry. Buy some headphones, and it's just headphones in a box. Buy a blackberry, and it comes not just with headphones, but a protective case, usb cables, etc.

[Weird Harold]

The truth is we have yet to see a single solid answer for why a constructed LTT would have real memories.

Why wouldn't an alternate personality constructed from real memories that the primary personality can't deal with have real memories?

Alternate personalities always have 'real' memories because they are constructed from repressed/suppressed/rejected memories.

[Weird Harold]

Then you don't believe there is nuture [sic] in WoT? How rediculous. If everyone was the same every time, the pattern wouldn't be different every time around.

PS:

In the age-old debate of Nature vs Nurture, the WOT is designed so that predestination and ancestry -- aka Nature -- determine everything about a person. The expression "Blood Will Tell" based on the beliefs of the eighteenth century is not merely an expression, it is just the way the WOT works.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I don't think anyone disputes that the memories are real memories of real events and real feelings. That doesn't mean tha the personality constructed from those memories is "real" any more than a one man play based on Will Rogers' writings and old movie clips is guaranteed to duplicate the "Real" Will Rogers.I know that the memories are real, and so does everyone else.

With one exception, at that point in the story: Rand al'Thor. He thinks that the memory is an illusion. He also thinks (jokingly, sort of) to himself that he will start talking to an equally illusionary voice in his head.

And he is even when he is wrong. That is the point I tried to make.
At that point in the story, Rand thinks that both the memory and the voice of LTT are figments of his imagination, while in reality both the memory and the voice are real.

[Terez]

I know that the memories are real, and so does everyone else.

With one exception, at that point in the story: Rand al'Thor. He thinks that the memory is an illusion. He also thinks (jokingly, sort of) to himself that he will start talking to an equally illusionary voice in his head.

And he is even when he is wrong. That is the point I tried to make.
At that point in the story, Rand thinks that both the memory and the voice of LTT are figments of his imagination, while in reality both the memory and the voice are real.
Almost, but not quite. You made the mistake of assuming that Rand came to the right conclusion about the "voice" later on, even though you had no good reason to do so. ;)

[GonzoTheGreat]

No, not really, in this case. Here all I did was interpret the part I quoted as foreshadowing, which announced that the voice of LTT was going to be real.

[Terez]

No, not really
Yes, really:

At that point in the story, Rand thinks that both the memory and the voice of LTT are figments of his imagination, while in reality both the memory and the voice are real.
:rolleyes: What else would you be judging the veracity of your interpretation against?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Not Rand's opinion, but reality itself. Or at least, reality in the WOT sense. Which may or may not be reality itself. Perhaps all we are is a story told by gleemen:
"Tales of Theoryland", told by Thom Merrilin.

But that may be a bit too philosophical for most common rooms, so it is possible that he only told this when he was a Court Bard.

[Weird Harold]

With one exception, at that point in the story: Rand al'Thor. He thinks that the memory is an illusion. He also thinks (jokingly, sort of) to himself that he will start talking to an equally illusionary voice in his head.

And you think this foreshadows a real voice?

It is precisely Rand's conviction that the memories are illusions/halicinations, a sign of impending madness, that generated the "illusionary voice" in his head and drove him insane...

[Belazamon]

The truth is we have yet to see a single solid answer for why a constructed LTT would have real memories. Deny it however you like.

One of the points of this theory is to answer that question. Obviously you don't agree it's "solid," but that just means you're not convinced, not that there's no proposed answer.

No, other way around. Personalities come bundled with memories, and obviously more.

Ahh, but that's my point - how exactly are we to know this? Our only potential example is Rand, and you can't assume you're right about one assumption in order to prove this assumption. ;)

[Sodas]

Why wouldn't an alternate personality constructed from real memories that the primary personality can't deal with have real memories?

If all you care about is wiether or not it's theoretically possible to create a constructed personality from memories, then go for it. But I say it doesn't work that way.

Ahh, but that's my point - how exactly are we to know this? Our only potential example is Rand, and you can't assume you're right about one assumption in order to prove this assumption.

Ahem.

We also have the example of slayer.

Who, just like Rand, has memories and feelings seperate from LTT, like Isam and Luc.

It really was a pity. He had rather looked forward to killing his nephew and the wench. But if there was time to pass, hunting was always a pleasure. He became Isam. Isam liked killing wolves even more than Luc did.