Lews Therin Poll #1

[Terez]

We'll do this again after we get a book, and before the 2nd one comes out.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I've voted for the first option, though I would've been happier without that "separate from Rand" clause. The issue is not quite as simple as all that, considering the fact that they share both a body and a soul.

In the WOT universe, a human is made up of three intertwined parts: body, mind and soul. In general, all three are needed, but in special cases one can be missing.
Mordeth had a soul and a mind, but no body. Until he got to share Fain's, of course.
A Gray Man has mind and body, but no soul.
It's possible that a mind trap would remove the mind from the body and soul, though I'm not really sure on the details of this. Some experimentation is required, but I have trouble finding volunteers. A better example of mindlessness could be the victims of very heavy Compulsion.

LTT shares the soul with Rand. His mind is usually separate from Rand's, but there are now and then overlaps. Occasionally at least he has access to the body, but I don't think it is possible to figure out how often.

[Terez]

I've voted for the first option, though I would've been happier without that "separate from Rand" clause. The issue is not quite as simple as all that, considering the fact that they share both a body and a soul.
Sure, but according to you guys, that soul is neither "Rand" nor "Lews Therin". So, if Lews Therin is actually having conversations with "Rand" and trying to take over "Rand's" body, then he's separate from Rand, right? :rolleyes: I didn't say Lews Therin was separate from the soul - I said separate from Rand.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Sure, but according to you guys, that soul is neither "Rand" nor "Lews Therin". So, if Lews Therin is actually having conversations with "Rand" and trying to take over "Rand's" body, then he's separate from Rand, right? :rolleyes: I didn't say Lews Therin was separate from the soul - I said separate from Rand.Well, that's where it gets tricky.

What is Mat?
Is it his body, his mind, or his soul?
I would say that the is the combination of all those which is 'Mat'.

What is Halima?
Is it the body, the mind or the soul?
Once again I would say that it is the combination of all three which is 'Halima'.

But using that same standard, what is Rand?
Once again body, mind and soul.
Now, what is LTT?
Also body, mind and soul, but the body and soul (and little bits of mind) are the same that make up 'Rand'. Which is something that seems to bother Rand and LTT even more than it bothers us, for some reason.

[Terez]

Well, that's where it gets tricky.
Indeed. :)

But using that same standard, what is Rand?
Once again body, mind and soul.
Yup, including the Lews Therin bits.

Now, what is LTT?
It's simple - he's been reborn as Rand, who had (like is normal for reborn souls) forgotten Lews Therin. But now he's remembered.

Which is something that seems to bother Rand and LTT even more than it bothers us, for some reason.
Indeed.

One day, you'll admit that you're a construct'or, Gonzo. If you can just get it in your head that "Lews Therin" doesn't do anything that Rand doesn't want him to do. ;)

[Nazbaque]

Exactly what do you mean by separate? LTT could be a construct personality that now has become independent of the original and trying to take over the body.

And if we really split hairs: Rand isn't exactly a reincarnation of LTT, but the Dragon soul. LTT was the previous incarnation of this soul. Who knows how many others there are. The question is wheter LTT is a construct personality or an echo of the previous incarnation. Separate can be a result of either. In one case it is the result of Pattern/taint/ta'veren in the other Rand is just schizophrenic. The memories imply the echo and Rand's mental state together with taint madness implies schizophrenia.

Personally I like to believe the echo case because the other option is lame.

[Brita]

~~sigh~~ I committed to one, but both are plausible in my mind. I'm just sticking with my gut.

[Terez]

*gives Brita some Metamucil*

[Josh1337]

I picked the first one, though I can see it being either way

[irerancincpkc]

It is Option One.

[Frenzy]

no, according to us guys, the soul is both Rand AND Lews Therin. And a whole bunch of others. But that's a different thread.



Looks like you got Anubis to flip, terez.

[Terez]

Neil has been a construct'or for as long as I remember. He's anti- barrier degradation though.

[The Immortal One]

I didn't vote because when I first read the books I thought that Lews Therin was an Option 1'er, but when I came here the arguements always convince me that it must be Option 2.

Unfortunately, whenever I re-read the books I'm re-convinced that it must be Option 1.


Rationally I suppose a mental problem is more likely, but when I'm reading the books I'm in a 'fiction' state of mind and am more likely to believe a supernatural cause - like Lews Therin being real.

In conclusion, when you take the Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) into account, either could be true.

[Terez]

Rationally I suppose a mental problem is more likely, but when I'm reading the books I'm in a 'fiction' state of mind and am more likely to believe a supernatural cause - like Lews Therin being real. That's what makes the construct'or argument fun - it's counterintuitive, and it's enormously complex in comparison to the real'er assumption. That's one of the main reasons I tend to think the construct approach has more validity than the 'real' approach - RJ was one to avoid the easy 'it's fantasy so I can do whatever I want and it doesn't have to be anything like reality' trump card. He seemed to have more fun stacking details into his world, and making it more realistic.

In conclusion, when you take the Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) into account, either could be true. I like this bit better:

Sci-fi Weekly (http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue362/interview.html)

How did you go from nuclear engineer to writing fantasy for a living?

Jordan: Are you familiar with Schroedinger's cat?



Yes—that's quantum physics. That's the theory that if a cat were put into a steel chamber with radiation, the feline would be alive and dead at the same time. This is because of the superposition of possible outcomes that exist simultaneously.

Jordan: Schroedinger's Cat is really a test in a way. If you can wrap your mind around Schroedinger's cat and accept that, than you are ready to take on quantum physics. I also think, if you can wrap your mind around Schroedinger's cat and accept that, than you are ready to write fantasy.

I don't keep up with the current literature in physics. Occasionally, at conventions, I have been put on panels with physicists—because I have a degree in physics. The only way I can hold my own with the physicists is if I forget talking about physics and start talking theology. If I talk theology, they seem to understand what I'm saying and we get along quite well.

[Marie Curie 7]

I like this bit better:


How did you go from nuclear engineer to writing fantasy for a living?

Jordan: Are you familiar with Schroedinger's cat?

Yes—that's quantum physics. That's the theory that if a cat were put into a steel chamber with radiation, the feline would be alive and dead at the same time. This is because of the superposition of possible outcomes that exist simultaneously.

Jordan: Schroedinger's Cat is really a test in a way. If you can wrap your mind around Schroedinger's cat and accept that, than you are ready to take on quantum physics. I also think, if you can wrap your mind around Schroedinger's cat and accept that, than you are ready to write fantasy.

I don't keep up with the current literature in physics. Occasionally, at conventions, I have been put on panels with physicists—because I have a degree in physics. The only way I can hold my own with the physicists is if I forget talking about physics and start talking theology. If I talk theology, they seem to understand what I'm saying and we get along quite well.


http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o71/mariecurie7/schrodingercat-box.jpg

[Terez]

Just bumping the poll to the top, cause I know there are probably a few people who haven't seen it. There were more votes last time I did this poll...

[Oatman]

I don't like either of those options, so I will abstain.

[lurk]

actually, The memories part seems more logical to me (instincts, no quotes so dont' be flaming me :p ) because I think along these lines:

Rand starts discussing with LTT after a extended period of channeling vast amounts of tainted saidin. He is turning into a paranoid guy who has to cope with al those "foreign" memories. He also finds those memories intruding, he wants to be Rand al' Thor not LTT reborn. So why not cope by thinking that you hear voices. Voices imply another person, meaning he is still Rand al' Thor.

and I repeat this is not based on quotes, it is a feeling, if you think I am wrong, you are welcome to it :)
I will continu to be a stubborn woolheaded guy :D

[Matoyak]

I refused to pick one, because the one I would like to pick was written badly. (Almost as if the person making the poll wanted to convince people to pick the other option.)

[Ieyasu]

I refused to pick one, because the one I would like to pick was written badly. (Almost as if the person making the poll wanted to convince people to pick the other option.)

Ditto. Terez is a noob <3

I believe LTT is a real and separate personality from Rand. I do not think he is trying to 'take over' consciously with the intent of controlling Rand... he just reacts faster and/or stronger than Rand at times.

[Terez]

and I repeat this is not based on quotes, it is a feeling, if you think I am wrong, you are welcome to it :)
I will continu to be a stubborn woolheaded guy :D It's okay, I can back you up with quotes. ;)

And if you guys can all agree on a way to word the poll option for next time, then I'll use it. It's not my fault your theory is stupid and doesn't make any sense. :D "Lews Therin is real" just doesn't cut it...

[Ieyasu]

It's okay, I can back you up with quotes. ;)

And if you guys can all agree on a way to word the poll option for next time, then I'll use it. It's not my fault your theory is stupid and doesn't make any sense. :D "Lews Therin is real" just doesn't cut it...

actually that's the best way to word it imo

LTT is real vs LTT is a construct

[Terez]

actually that's the best way to word it imo

LTT is real vs LTT is a construct
It's a horrible way to say it, because the construct theory has always allowed that certain elements of Lews Therin are very, very real. You guys need to figure out exactly what you think Lews Therin is, and find a way to describe it, or you'll have to deal with the way I word it. And I won't do "Lews Therin is real" because it would be extremely misleading to those who are not intimate with the discussions we've had on the subject.

[Ieyasu]

It's a horrible way to say it, because the construct theory has always allowed that certain elements of Lews Therin are very, very real. You guys need to figure out exactly what you think Lews Therin is, and find a way to describe it, or you'll have to deal with the way I word it. And I won't do "Lews Therin is real" because it would be extremely misleading to those who are not intimate with the discussions we've had on the subject.

*rolls eyes* yeah cuz the way you have it worded now isnt extremely misleading already :P

LOL

Im not going to have this argument with you again, Ive already done so with your betters, so I wont bother rehashing it out with you. Word your polls how you want :)

[Terez]

My wording wasn't meant to be misleading - it was just meant to try to sum up the arguments from the side of the real'ers as best I could. Admittedly, the arguments are all over the place, not exactly cohesive, but it's up to you guys to come up with a cohesive statement that is in opposition to ours. As you can see by reading it, "Lews Therin is real" is not in opposition to our statement.

[Oatman]

My way of wording it(though this may differ to others) is that the personality of LTT in Rands head is the same as the personality of the LTT from the AoL, and is able to think, and occasionally act, independently of Rand.

[Terez]

For those of you who don't like my wording of the real'er position - just pretend it's Oatman's wording, if you prefer that. He included the major disagreement between the constructors and real'ers, so I have no problem with it. Maybe Nae'blis can even fix the poll. :)

[Crispin's Crispian]

So, I'm voting mostly for Oatman's wording. I'm actually not 100% in the Real camp, but I just really don't like the Construct idea. The theory is good (well constructed, well documented, nicely done), but the idea that Rand constructed a separate personality from some memories that seeped into his head just appalls me for some reason.

That said, the main reason I'm not 100% in the Real camp is exactly what Terez has pointed out--there's really no clear definition of what "Real" means. Or, rather, there's no definitive reason for the Voice to be "real." So, while I think of it as real and want it to be real, I also get a little bothered that I can't explain it as thoroughly as the Construct camp.


**Edit**
I'm also not worried about being wrong, which is why I took the unusal step of commitment in this case.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I already voted for Real position, but I definitely prefer Oatman's wording to the one that Terez gave. One of the big problems for Rand is that "separate" is not entirely applicable.

[Terez]

I have quotes from Isa and Zae about Rand and Lews Therin being 'separate', but of course, the argument itself has always come down to whether you think Lews Therin is a conscious person or not. Real'ers have consistently insisted that Lews Therin's consciousness is separate from Rand's. Like Oaty said, that he is able to think and act on his own. That is where we have always disagreed.

Crispy, it might appall you less if you realize that the construction process was subconscious?

[The Black Wind]

Oh Terez...

You shouldn't tempt with spoilers in your sig. I've managed to avoid the spoiler board for 3 days now and then there that was, just waiting to be highlighted. It's like giving a child a present 2 days before his birthday and telling him he has to wait to open it. I'm the child and I definitely opened it.

Surprisingly it's one spoiler I don't regret it though. I'm just excited to find out the details.

:p

[Terez]

Yeah, that's why I have no real qualms about posting that quote in my sig. I know that it's highly unlikely most people would actually regret reading that one. Even though it is essentially the climax of the book!

[The Black Wind]

Ahhhh.... blast!!! this is why I've been staying away from WOT for the last few days. I'm starting to feel the need to read TGS again! It's like being severed from the OP. You know it's there but you can't touch it. Must... find... another distraction.

Where's my harmonica!? :confused:

[Isabel]

Terez: he started out as seperate, but you could see that they were starting to merge already.....
But that is not even our main argument. Our main argument is simply that we consider the voice to be the real voice of LTT in the past. You are trying to make it difficult.

[Wunderwaffe]

Ahhhh.... blast!!! this is why I've been staying away from WOT for the last few days. I'm starting to feel the need to read TGS again! It's like being severed from the OP. You know it's there but you can't touch it. Must... find... another distraction.

Where's my harmonica!? :confused:

Forgive my inquisitive nature, but am I understanding you properly when you say you've already read tGS?

[Terez]

Terez: he started out as seperate, but you could see that they were starting to merge already.....
But that is not even our main argument. Our main argument is simply that we consider the voice to be the real voice of LTT in the past. You are trying to make it difficult.
No, I'm trying to make it clear. What you said doesn't mean anything. What are you trying to say? That the memories are real? No one ever disagreed with you about that, therefore that was not the main argument. That Lews Therin has a mind of his own and was talking to Rand? We definitely don't agree with that.

See, we had this problem years ago, and we already, like I said, got down to the nitty-gritty of the disagreement. You guys think Lews Therin is a different person with a mind of his own (consciousness). We don't.

Also, we really shouldn't continue this discussion here. We'll continue it Tuesday.

[Isabel]

No, I'm trying to make it clear. What you said doesn't mean anything. What are you trying to say? That the memories are real? No one ever disagreed with you about that, therefore that was not the main argument. That Lews Therin has a mind of his own and was talking to Rand? We definitely don't agree with that.

See, we had this problem years ago, and we already, like I said, got down to the nitty-gritty of the disagreement. You guys think Lews Therin is a different person with a mind of his own (consciousness). We don't.

Also, we really shouldn't continue this discussion here. We'll continue it Tuesday.

You are not listing to what I am saying. I am saying that the voice was LTT. What is so hard to understand about that???????


LOOK: Our main argument is simply that we consider the voice to be the real voice of LTT ofthe past.

Our main argument is about the voice being real and not that it is conscious. That you don't understand that, and try to make it into consciousness is different. The LTT is real faction always that Rand is the reincarnation of LTT. You would call it the same person / soul, only Rand heard the personality / voice of LTT.
You claim that the voice is something that Rand made up, and that it isn't the voice from LTT.

[the_dead]

The choices in the poll seem wrong to me. As if some part of the discussion is missing.I think there is no question as to is LTT real or not. He is. Just a question of why he was there.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Our main argument is about the voice being real and not that it is conscious. That you don't understand that, and try to make it into consciousness is different. The LTT is real faction always that Rand is the reincarnation of LTT. You would call it the same person / soul, only Rand heard the personality / voice of LTT.
You claim that the voice is something that Rand made up, and that it isn't the voice from LTT.
Wait, wait, wait, hold on. When you say, "in the past," are you saying the voice is actually being spoken or is echoing from the AoL? It's not a voice that's in real time talking about the world around Rand?

I had no idea you felt that way.


Terez, no, it doesn't help that it's all subconscious. In fact, that part is a given, since it's obvious Rand isn't actively trying to make the memories into a personality.

[Terez]

So what is it that is appalling to you?

Also, I'd disregard Isa's arguments. They might make more sense when you read the book, but I doubt it.

[Crispin's Crispian]

So what is it that is appalling to you?
I'm not sure I can pinpoint it. So much of it is interpreting the quotes toward the development of this subconscious alter ego, but that development just isn't obvious to me. I know you think that's part of the strength of the theory, but I don't. I think part of it also comes from my opposition to Barrier Degradation. Or rather, my insistence that the evidence for that is simply not very strong. I believe a lot the Construct theory flows from that, even if it's not a necessary condition. The sad part about that is that both Realers (blech) and Constructors (2 x blech) have to come up with an explanation for how the memories and/or Voice got there in the first place.

In any case, I don't feel like debating the whole thing right now. Suffice it to say that I'm simply not convinced.

[Isabel]

Wait, wait, wait, hold on. When you say, "in the past," are you saying the voice is actually being spoken or is echoing from the AoL? It's not a voice that's in real time talking about the world around Rand?

It is a voice that's in real time talking about the world around Rand. But that voice is the personality from LTT from the past. I meant it's the same personality as LTT from the past.

[Terez]

I'm not sure I can pinpoint it. So much of it is interpreting the quotes toward the development of this subconscious alter ego, but that development just isn't obvious to me. I know you think that's part of the strength of the theory, but I don't. I think part of it also comes from my opposition to Barrier Degradation. Or rather, my insistence that the evidence for that is simply not very strong. I believe a lot the Construct theory flows from that, even if it's not a necessary condition. The sad part about that is that both Realers (blech) and Constructors (2 x blech) have to come up with an explanation for how the memories and/or Voice got there in the first place.
The question of how the memories came to Rand in the first place isn't all that important to me, and hasn't been for some time. We know that Rand was Lews Therin in a past life. The fact that he has the memories is an anomaly, but it's not as if the origin of the memories is in any way mysterious.

[Yellowbeard]

I'm gonna wait until I read TGS until I vote.

[Terez]

Closed due to new book. New poll!