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Tamyrlin
04-21-2009, 04:04 PM
I'm excited. Thanks to a great JordanCon and the latest news that this final book will be three books, I'm planning on one final Age for Theoryland's design. I figured that I would use the skills I have gained over twelve years (and the skills of others here) to re-make Theoryland. So, with that thought, what would you like to see at Theoryland? This is an open brain storming session. I will be posting design ideas to get comments as I knock them out.

Isabel
04-21-2009, 04:09 PM
I would like to see a contest in which we predict the upcoming events and the ending before any of the three books comes out ;)
Ofcourse fully with quotes:P

ShadowbaneX
04-21-2009, 04:45 PM
I would like to see a contest in which we predict the upcoming events and the ending before any of the three books comes out ;)
Ofcourse fully with quotes:P
sounds like factions there Isa.

A site redesign sounds awesome Tam. I can't wait to see what you come up with. As for suggestions? How about an integrated chat feature? ;)

Gilshalos Sedai
04-21-2009, 04:49 PM
You going to let your resident grammar nazis proofread? Not that you haven't done a bangup job at catching errors yourself, but more eyes catch more, especially if you have a lot of writing anywhere.


And why final? You're not going to find a new series to Theorize?

Sarevok
04-21-2009, 05:03 PM
Yeah, like SBX said: we need chat.

As long as it has a chatroom, any redesign is fine with me. :D

Zaela Sedai
04-21-2009, 05:06 PM
we need chat...preferably one that gets through most work security ;)

Terez
04-21-2009, 05:30 PM
hmm...I'll probably have some ideas later, but can you make theory responses automatic? I know you like reviewing the theories (and why) but you never even read the responses before submitting them, lol...so you might as well make them automatic. :p

Tamyrlin
04-21-2009, 07:28 PM
https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1775

First Variation of Mockup 1
https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1777

Second Variation of Mockup 1
https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1779

Third Variation of Mockup 1
https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1795

The third variation includes a more open look to the header, pushes main navigation down and puts login at the very top right.

Marrow Rahien
04-21-2009, 08:02 PM
I prefer the shades of gray of the first design -- the solid white bar on the left for the second is just distracting to the eye.

And while I'm a super new member here, I did want to chime in that by having menus on the left and right of the message board (maybe that can be changed and I just need to play around with my options) gives me a weird sensation of message board claustrophobia. I'm not sure if any of that would be part of your redesign, but personally I prefer really long menu options on the left and a larger message board area than the split as I see it now. If that's just the nature of the board software you're using, and beyond the scope of your redesign, ignore this whole paragraph. :)

Zaela Sedai
04-21-2009, 08:51 PM
both are great Lordy

ShadowbaneX
04-21-2009, 09:10 PM
both do look good Tam. My personal preference is for the grey as Marrow suggests, but I also like the larger graphics of the second one.

Marrow Rahien
04-21-2009, 09:32 PM
both do look good Tam. My personal preference is for the grey as Marrow suggests, but I also like the larger graphics of the second one.

A mash up, perhaps? the gray with the larger graphics?

ShadowbaneX
04-21-2009, 09:53 PM
works for me!

Tamyrlin
04-21-2009, 10:25 PM
Agreed on the menus - this design is meant to do a better job of organizing such things and opening the page up to a fluid design so we can make better use of space for theories and the message board.

Tamyrlin
04-21-2009, 10:32 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I agree and now I'm moving on to a whole new design.

Marrow Rahien
04-21-2009, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the feedback. I agree and now I'm moving on to a whole new design.

Awesome!

ShadowbaneX
04-21-2009, 10:41 PM
very nice Fearless Leader.

Belazamon
04-22-2009, 12:43 AM
Apparently I'm opposite of most responders so far (surprise!), but I prefer the smaller graphics. I do like having menus/links on the left and at the top, but I've always preferred that the vast majority of the viewable area be the content of the page you're on currently, not cluttered with all kinds of redirects and miscellaneous pics. Even the current messageboard set-up is a little too "cluttered" for my linking.

I will agree with everyone else, though, that the grey sidebar is superior. Also that a chat of some sort would be spiffy.

As for further suggestions... I have to admit I really have only been using the messageboards lately, so I don't have a lot of feedback for anything else. Sorry!

Davian93
04-22-2009, 10:30 AM
I like the 2nd variation, Jefe.

Sei'taer
04-22-2009, 10:30 AM
I can't see any of them on my phone so I'll look later.

What's the possibility of having it set up for mobile access?

JSUCamel
04-22-2009, 12:19 PM
A mobile phone version is pretty simple to set up, so I'd imagine it will be done. Probably not a priority though.

As far as feedback goes, Tam is asking for design feedback, but he is probably also looking for new ideas for features. Several people mentioned chat, and yet still others (including myself) mentioned that they don't go to the main site, just the message boards.

What would make you go to the main site on a regular basis? What would make you participate? What features can Tam add that will make the site more interactive and dynamic?

Do you want blogs? Trivia contests? Automatic theory responders? RSS subscription feeds for when new theories are posted? Image galleries? The ability to upload new pictures, fan art, fanfic, TED-style video lectures on various theories and topics?

What would make the main site of TL a better experience for you? TL is much more than just the message boards, but most of us tend to ignore the main site because all the dynamic stuff goes on here. What can Tam do to change that?

We don't want to lose the message boards, certainly, but it would be nice to have more of a reason to go to the main page.

Davian93
04-22-2009, 12:42 PM
We have a main site?

Ozymandias
04-22-2009, 02:42 PM
I know this isn't the feedback your looking for, per se, but I would much rather see the equivalent time devoted to posting responses, posting new theories, and raisings, in that order.

I mean, the site is just the message board at this point, and we just moved over (sorta) from Yuku, so why don't we actually bring the main site back to life before planning ambitious updates? And by we, I mean you, O Hard Working and Generous Lord of the Board.

Terez
04-22-2009, 02:48 PM
Aviendha had plenty of motive - why would she (or the Wise Ones, for that matter) allow a Forsaken to hang so close to Rand?

Tamyrlin
04-22-2009, 02:56 PM
Part of this effort is to improve the current tools on the site (and fix them) to enable other users to review and post theories. In fact, getting me out of the way, is a major part of this redesign.

Currently, theory posting is broken (since we switched servers) and I'm waiting for that to be fixed.

Davian93
04-22-2009, 02:58 PM
Aviendha had plenty of motive - why would she (or the Wise Ones, for that matter) allow a Forsaken to hang so close to Rand?

Yeah, but would Avi murder someone like that? She would essentially be an assassin killing an unarmed man...not alot of toh in that. If they knew he was a Forsaken, then they likely also knew he was shielded and thus neutered as a threat. Its not very Aiel-like to use a Wise One apprentice as an assassin. Also, why would Asmo be terrified to walk in on Avi?

Tamyrlin
04-22-2009, 04:15 PM
But I will say this - the timing of the killing is not an accident, coming on the back of Rand's choice/inability to protect the Aiel from Lanfear.

Davian93
04-22-2009, 04:18 PM
But I will say this - the timing of the killing is not an accident, coming on the back of Rand's choice/inability to protect the Aiel from Lanfear.

Hmm...interesting. I need to do a reread of books 4-6.

Jonai
04-22-2009, 04:55 PM
But I will say this - the timing of the killing is not an accident, coming on the back of Rand's choice/inability to protect the Aiel from Lanfear.


Tam's comment almost seems like it would clear the way for a Shadowsworn killer. With Lanfear dead, or at least out of the way, missing, what have you, it would make it safe to toast Asmo. The whole chain asmo, rule the world thing was Lanfear's bag of meow mix anyways.

I will say this though. At one time Avi considered killing Rand and then killing herself to meet her toh. If she can consider killing the Car'a'carn in cold blood I'm pretty sure she can knock off joe sixpack caddy shack 'asmo' forsaken no problem.

Thing is, how did Rand not protect the Aiel from Lanfear? He created the mist dome to quarantine the fight zone, put all the fires out and cut the weaves killing Avi and Eggy. this was all before he decided not to use the LTT weaves that would have beaten Lannie like a redheaded step child.

Tamyrlin
04-22-2009, 05:59 PM
I do like how open the First Variation was, so I tried to do a mash up. Let me know of all of these, which is the preferred (original, 1st var., 2nd var., 3rd var.).

Davian93
04-22-2009, 07:32 PM
I will say this though. At one time Avi considered killing Rand and then killing herself to meet her toh. If she can consider killing the Car'a'carn in cold blood I'm pretty sure she can knock off joe sixpack caddy shack 'asmo' forsaken no problem.


That's exactly it though. She pondered doing it for her toh, not on orders from the Wise Ones. I doubt she would murder someone in cold blood, even if ordered to do so. Perhaps if Asmo had previously insulted her I could see it.

ShadowbaneX
04-22-2009, 11:40 PM
https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1775

First Variation of Mockup 1
https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1777

Second Variation of Mockup 1
https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1779

Third Variation of Mockup 1
https://www.mocklinkr.com/editor#193/1795

The third variation includes a more open look to the header, pushes main navigation down and puts login at the very top right.
4th option also looks very good Tam, especially since I prefer darker forums. Link is a bit screwy though. Everyone should try this one (https://www.mocklinkr.com/viewer/193#1795) instead.

Dragon Thief
04-23-2009, 03:19 AM
I'd build the Theory Database into the site for starters. And how about a wiki? Actually, I could easily see a wiki being created into two forms - encyclopedia style, and theory style. Each wiki entry could list known FACTS about things - possibly including popular quotes, book/chapter references, etc - and then links to theoryies/factions/etc associated with it.

It would add a large layer of cross-indexing to the site, to be sure. And as a wiki it could be user edited, preventing Tam from needing to do too much work with it - and still be a very high end resource for research and just catch-up.

Also, the Map feature we talked about a long time ago - plotting where TL members are around the world.

And lastly, a user database that lists what members have what ranks, what factions, theories, etc. If it's possible to tie into the forums for which posts are theirs, more the better, but good even without it.

And I would make sure that you have a free member account available as well, with some/many of these features available. That way anyone who finds this site from the next year(s) JordanCons and stuff will be able to particpate even if they don't pay for the account to do the searches.

If you're really feelign ambitious, look into the google's ad words for advertising money and ditch the paywall for searches - I don't know how much you've taken in as is nor how much you might gain from advertising, so I can't really advise more than that. But google typically has ads that aren't too intrusive and often are at least kind of targeted towards the content you offer.

Sarevok
04-23-2009, 03:36 AM
Uh... I keep getting empty pages when I click those links... And then for a few min I'm unable to open the TL News forum :s

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2009, 05:20 AM
But if Aviendha knew that he was Asmodean, then she must also have known that he was teaching Rand. She knows very well that having a teacher is very important to the survival chances of a channeler. And she had no way of judging whether or not Rand was still in danger of being one of the three in four who die as a result of going it alone.

If she didn't know that he was Asmodean, then he could insult her to his heart's content, and she would not react with violence. She would have thought he was a gleeman, and gleemen can get away with almost anything short of murder amongst the Aiel.

Terez
04-23-2009, 10:49 AM
But if Aviendha knew that he was Asmodean, then she must also have known that he was teaching Rand.
Yeah, and she gave him long enough to make sure Rand wouldn't die. That was all that was needed. She may not know exactly how long it would take, but she is a channeler, so I'm sure she could determine that it had been plenty long enough (it doesn't appear to take long).

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2009, 11:55 AM
Yeah, and she gave him long enough to make sure Rand wouldn't die. That was all that was needed. She may not know exactly how long it would take, but she is a channeler, so I'm sure she could determine that it had been plenty long enough (it doesn't appear to take long).For women. Now, how much data does she have on how long it takes for men?

And, as a bonus question: how does she know that Asmodean has taught Rand all the necessary things that he can teach?
For instance, had Asmodean taught Rand Spinning Earthfire, or for that matter, Milking Tears?

Of those two things, we know that Egwene (and probably Aviendha too) did not even know the names until Moghedien told them that she couldn't teach that. Could Asmodean have taught either or both, and would that have been useful for Rand (for saving as many Aiel as possible, for instance)?

JSUCamel
04-23-2009, 11:57 AM
I'd build the Theory Database into the site for starters. And how about a wiki? Actually, I could easily see a wiki being created into two forms - encyclopedia style, and theory style. Each wiki entry could list known FACTS about things - possibly including popular quotes, book/chapter references, etc - and then links to theoryies/factions/etc associated with it.

We already have a theory database -- it's the theories section on the main site. It doesn't look like much of a database, but it's all in one.

A wiki would be cool and pretty easy to set up -- the question is whether or not we can populate it. There are many HCFF's but not many people willing to take the time and effort to input that kind of data.

Also, the Map feature we talked about a long time ago - plotting where TL members are around the world.

Totally doable. I can do it better than last time, too, especially if I can get Tam to let the map script access to the hometown locations in the user profiles.

And lastly, a user database that lists what members have what ranks, what factions, theories, etc. If it's possible to tie into the forums for which posts are theirs, more the better, but good even without it.

Sounds like a User Profile page with a lot more detail, kind of like a Facebook profile with different pods. I like it, but I'm not sure how feasible it is at this point in time, or if that's even a direction Tam would want to go in.

And I would make sure that you have a free member account available as well, with some/many of these features available. That way anyone who finds this site from the next year(s) JordanCons and stuff will be able to particpate even if they don't pay for the account to do the searches.

I totally agree. Most of the services should (and probably will be) free. Tam will obviously make that determination./

If you're really feelign ambitious, look into the google's ad words for advertising money and ditch the paywall for searches - I don't know how much you've taken in as is nor how much you might gain from advertising, so I can't really advise more than that. But google typically has ads that aren't too intrusive and often are at least kind of targeted towards the content you offer.

I think Google Ads would be fine as long as it were kept to an absolute minimum. I'm just not a big fan of ad-based sites.

Good ideas.

Ishara
04-23-2009, 12:21 PM
Thanks for the new link SBX - Tam, me likey! Fabulous job!!!

Personally, I'd like to see integrated functions. I like one-stop shopping on websites, and don't have much of a reason to hang out on the main site. I think the theories peice will play a big part in changing that and it looks as if that will be a focus, which is good.

Terez
04-23-2009, 12:42 PM
For women. Now, how much data does she have on how long it takes for men? She doesn't have to have any - there's no reason to assume that it would take longer for men.

And, as a bonus question: how does she know that Asmodean has taught Rand all the necessary things that he can teach? Why would she care? He's one of the Forsaken - the things he can teach aren't worth the risk of allowing one of the Forsaken to stay in Rand's inner circle.

PS - I don't see the point in making a Theoryland Wiki - there are already a couple of WoT wikis out there.

GonzoTheGreat
04-23-2009, 12:56 PM
She doesn't have to have any - there's no reason to assume that it would take longer for men.Just as there is no reason to assume that getting rid of fire would be different for women than for men. Yet, if a woman were to try drawing the fire into herself, as a man would do, she'd end up burned badly, if she was very lucky.
Why would she care? He's one of the Forsaken - the things he can teach aren't worth the risk of allowing one of the Forsaken to stay in Rand's inner circle.Things such as the DO's resurrection trick, which, if Rand had known about it, might have alerted him to Dashiva. On two occasions (Cairhien palace attack and the Cleansing), that particular ignorance very nearly cost him his life, and in neither case did Aviendha do anything to help.

Things such as the precise approaches to the Pit of Doom, where Rand is someday going to have to stage a commando raid. How important would it be if he took a wrong turn somewhere and ended up in a dead end maze?
There may not be something like that (we haven't heard about it at all), but a Forsaken probably knows a lot more about the defenses there than anyone else.

Moiraine knew all along (or for a long time, at least) about Asmodean, and she had decided that Rand should make that particular decision. I just do not believe that Aviendha would be less willing to trust Rand's judgement in this (or just about anything else) than any AS would be.

Terez
04-23-2009, 01:02 PM
Just as there is no reason to assume that getting rid of fire would be different for women than for men.
Sure there is - everyone knows the weaves are different. Aviendha had the same bank to count on that Elayne has by Min's viewing - she knows he's not going to die of a stupid channeling sickness before the Last Battle.

I just do not believe that Aviendha would be less willing to trust Rand's judgement in this (or just about anything else) than any AS would be.
I didn't ask you to believe it, now did I? I was talking to Tam. ;)

Sarevok
04-23-2009, 01:04 PM
Wow... Has the redesign thread been highjacked for Asmo discussion?? :|

Terez
04-23-2009, 01:09 PM
It's Tam's fault.

Gilshalos Sedai
04-23-2009, 04:31 PM
As far as feedback goes, Tam is asking for design feedback, but he is probably also looking for new ideas for features. Several people mentioned chat, and yet still others (including myself) mentioned that they don't go to the main site, just the message boards.

I do not go to the main site. I don't have the time to hash and rehash others' theories any more. I just don't. I don't even have time to look at more than the General and the Non-WoT.

What would make you go to the main site on a regular basis? What would make you participate? What features can Tam add that will make the site more interactive and dynamic?

Blogs would be nice, Isabel could have written her editorial about the three volumes of AMoL and made it official ;). If Tam could work out the legalities of a new writer's forum/discussion group like he and I had been talking about that would be superb, too.

Do you want blogs? Trivia contests? Automatic theory responders? RSS subscription feeds for when new theories are posted? Image galleries? The ability to upload new pictures, fan art, fanfic, TED-style video lectures on various theories and topics?

Fan material would be nice. Frenzy would just win all the trivia contests.

What would make the main site of TL a better experience for you? TL is much more than just the message boards, but most of us tend to ignore the main site because all the dynamic stuff goes on here. What can Tam do to change that?

What about a guest post/blog every week or month? How many of us Heroes/Ancients keep a blog and wouldn't mind branching out? We highlight our history here, a pet theory/faction, how TL and WoT have impacted our lives...

We don't want to lose the message boards, certainly, but it would be nice to have more of a reason to go to the main page.

I'm a magpie. Bright and shiny pics and graphics would be great. Especially if they're someone's pic of Mat, for instance, or Rand or Elayne...

Ozymandias
04-23-2009, 05:02 PM
She doesn't have to have any - there's no reason to assume that it would take longer for men.


To get past the "holy shit, holy shit, i might die," phase? Of course there is. Aes Sedai know the difference, and if we've learned anything its that the Wise Ones are just as organized about this stuff as Aes Sedai. They don't actively hunt men down, but they've certainly seen their fair share.

If the wetlanders know that male power grows in spurts and female power grows in a more linear fashion, I think we should assume the opposite; that the Aiel are aware of this as well.

Tamyrlin
04-23-2009, 05:13 PM
Who said Aviendha made the decision? She was just the "messenger". Wait for the theory.

Ozymandias
04-23-2009, 05:45 PM
Wait for the theory.

I think a large portion of the posters here will probably be 6 feet under by the time that bad boy sees the light of day.

Terez
04-23-2009, 08:32 PM
Yeah, I'm talking mostly Wise Ones' motives here. But I doubt Aviendha would disagree with them much.

Tamyrlin
04-23-2009, 10:42 PM
But I disagree with you. :)

Terez
04-23-2009, 11:09 PM
About what?

Davian93
04-24-2009, 08:58 AM
Who said Aviendha made the decision? She was just the "messenger". Wait for the theory.

Yeah, but that comes back to the "Avi as an Assassin" theory and the Aiel mindset/culture doesn't really allow for that...not with Wise Ones.

Terez
04-24-2009, 09:18 AM
Yeah, but that comes back to the "Avi as an Assassin" theory and the Aiel mindset/culture doesn't really allow for that...not with Wise Ones.
Sure it does - the Wise Ones wanted Masema assassinated, and the only thing stopping them was the fact that they were sworn to follow Perrin as battle leader. Some people need killing.

GonzoTheGreat
04-24-2009, 10:40 AM
Yes, and Perrin as battle leader is like a Wetlander king, while Rand as battle leader of the battle leaders is just a clan chief. Or some similar reason why Perrin's wishes were honored, but Rand's weren't even asked.

Terez
04-24-2009, 10:47 AM
Yeah, but the Car'a'carn is different - they have to protect him. ;)

Davian93
04-24-2009, 11:00 AM
Sure it does - the Wise Ones wanted Masema assassinated, and the only thing stopping them was the fact that they were sworn to follow Perrin as battle leader. Some people need killing.

I agree with that but it doesn't address the fact that she is only an Apprentice...she wouldn't be the one tagged to do it. Those were Wise Ones with Perrin...not apprentices.

Terez
04-24-2009, 11:01 AM
I agree with that but it doesn't address the fact that she is only an Apprentice...she wouldn't be the one tagged to do it. Those were Wise Ones with Perrin...not apprentices. She may be an apprentice, but she's also got a claim on Rand. These things seem to be important to Aiel. She also had some weird toh stuff she needed to work out (check her first point of view). And then, of course, there's Tam's opportunity. ;)

Tamyrlin
04-24-2009, 11:02 AM
to Ozy's post

Terez
04-24-2009, 11:03 AM
We don't have a tree any more boss. Quote.

tworiverswoman
04-27-2009, 05:56 AM
Tam - getting back to the original purpose of the thread - I like variation three best. (4th design)

Mainly for the darkness, though -- for some reason, even though I'm used to it on other sites - I liked the look of the log in on the left side, though it might be nice if it disappeared after you'd logged in.

However - I like the "tabbed" look of the original design. Some people find that clunky, I just like the way it makes it clear that you can click on a tab and switch locations. I didn't see a tab for the message boards up there, though.

I used to read the theories, when I first joined, but the message boards seduced me with the instant (more or less) feedback and constant new things.

As for blogs and stuff - that might be fun, as long as the writer is interesting, but how consistent will the posting be? People aren't very good at keeping up with assigned work around here :P

And Lews Therin killed Asmo. :P (j/k)

GonzoTheGreat
04-27-2009, 06:44 AM
I think I also prefer the third variation. Just like Tru, I didn't see a link to the message boards either. Unlike Tru, for me the theories are a newfangled addition that I haven't paid all that much attention to.

Asmodean is dead. He is dead. He is dead. He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Asmodean. He cannot be reincarnated. He is dead.

Crispin's Crispian
04-27-2009, 12:55 PM
I liked the 4th redesign (the last or fourth one...I guess). I prefer the credentials boxes be up to the right, not stacked and taking up too much space like in the other designs.

Here are my opinions for the new site, in no particular order.

1) Theories: We definitely need a formal theory portion aside from the MB. I envision the MB being a place to ask question or to try out a theory before it gets posted.

I can't see how automatic responses will be good--we need to have some sort of approval process. Maybe make required text boxes for "Intro/Background," "Body," "Conclusion" to force userse to have those things. I also just had an idea about quotes. You could (1) integrate the search engine into the theory process to allow linking to relevant quotes, and (b) force users to ref a certain number of quotes through the entry fields (you would have multiple quote boxes for each section of the theory).

The current theory structure is highly annoying to me. I can never find what I'm looking for, and the layout bothers me. There needs to be a better way to organize formal theories, and to attach a user to a theory so a viewer can see all theories by any given user.

2) Predictions: cool idea, but we should have some way to resolve them post-book.

3) Wiki: Not sure. There already is a Wiki for WoT, even if it hardly gets updated. We should partner with them to let Theorylanders sign up and edit on their own. No point in replicating what's already been done. Maybe we just take it over?

4) Blogs: Yes. This would make the main page more interesting, assuming we found enough people with enough time to say enough interesting things.

5) That's all for now.

Sei'taer
04-27-2009, 01:56 PM
Ineresting things abot WoT or books in general? I know this is a WoT site, but we read a wide variety of books...most of us do anyway. We could go as far as book report type blogs/reviews, blogs about authors, short story reviews etc. I actually really like this idea.

JSUCamel
04-27-2009, 03:04 PM
I would imagine each blog would have its own niche. One might focus on featured theories, another on character analyses, another on upcoming books in the genre, another on whatever...