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View Full Version : Theory: Samael has merged with Machin Shin(The Black Wind)


wolfbrother369
04-24-2009, 01:00 AM
I'll start with what we know before the KoD.

We know from Moraine in the EoTW that Machin Shin (The Black Wind - of the ways) will attack any that travel through the ways human or shadowspawn.
We know it is attracted to the evil of Shadowspawn thus, the few that did make it to the Two Rivers must have been coming in small groups for a fair amount of time before they actually attacked.

We know that Machin Shin has a will and can consume minds of those it encounters. We know this two ways. One it is a many voiced entity(those minds it has consumed), and those that do escape sometimes lose a part of themselves(known from the Ogier in the Great HUnt).
We know from the end of the EotW when Moraine recounts Fain's encounter with it that some voices greeted him as like to them others feared him.
As soon as it enveloped him it fled. But why did it flee? I don't think it actually fled him as much as it consumed some of Padan Fain's single minded desire to fallow Rand and immediatly went about that.

We also know from the Great Hunt that it could at that point atleast partially leave the ways. Any time rand attempted to use the Ways Machin Shin did reach out and grab for him.
This also demonstrates it has a will and not just a mindless monster. We also know that since it fallowed him from waygate to waygate opening it must be able to find him in the outer world somehow.

We also know the last we see of Sammael he is near a waygate at Shadar Logoth. The gate has weaves Rand set up to ward only against Shadowspawn.
Rand also notices that Sammael had set weaves around his weaves as well. I beleive these weaves did two things they gave Sammael an escape hatch of sorts into the Ways as well as served as a trap if, as Sammael had planned, Rand fallowed him. We know that Mashadar comes Rand looks away and when he looks back Sammael is gone and only Mashadar and a closed waygate is where Sammael stood.
Perhaps these weaves that Sammael set up around the gate allowed him to quickly open and close the gate with the power ( thus giving him time to get away - and forcing Rand to go through the traps he set up around the gate if he chose to fallow). BUt what Sammael didn't plan for - or know about- when he set up his escape hatch is that Machin Shin will fallow
Rand to the Waygate and be right there to swallow him up when he enters the ways. But being between a Mashadar and Machin Shin he chose Machin Shin.

From tKoD:

We know that someone "Masqueraiding" as Sammael sent tens of thousands of trollocs into the ways, one can only assume that these are the same
100,000 Trollocs that attacked Rand at the Manor House in tKoD. Rand comments that someone must have Ishamael's ability to track Ta'veren through the pattern. We already know as mentioned above that Machin Shin can track Rands location. We know that whoever it was that sent them into the ways was a Forsaken since the Shadowspawn obeyed.

So in conclusion we know that Sammael could have escaped and been consumed by Machin Shin but not haveing his will completely obsorbed.
His mind being the strongest of all previously absorbed now controls it but with all of its powers. He can atleast for a short time come out of the ways. So he exits the ways at a waygate in the blight and still forms his amorphous being into the apearance of Sammael and Commands tens of thousands of Shadowspawn after Rand, and since he is Forsaken they obey. But since his body is dead the gholam is free to do what he wants.Now the shadowspawn can go as one big group (as they did) now since he controls Machin Shin they won't be attacked by it anymore, and he directs them where they should go since Machin Shin has the ability to find Rand.

Terez
04-24-2009, 01:12 AM
Are you saying Sammael's not dead?

Netherlands tour 8 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Gonzo reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/88494/t/Fantasy-Fair-Questions.html#reply-88494)

Sammael is dead. He is dead. He is dead. He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael. He cannot be reincarnated. He is dead.
Also, RJ confirmed that it was Mashadar that killed Sammael:


CNN Chat 12 December 2000 (http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2000/12/12/jordan/index.html)


Question from Arsolos: It has been reported that you have confirmed that Sammael died at the end of A Crown of Swords. Could you confirm that you have said this and elaborate on whether Rand was correct?



Robert Jordan: Mashadar killed Sammael. Sammael is toast!
I almost hate doing that...

Sarevok
04-24-2009, 02:34 AM
Didn't read the thread, just posting my thought on the title:
Even if they did merge, Sammael would be such a tiny part of the huge evil that is Machin Shin, that it wouldn't really matter anyway.

Neilbert
04-24-2009, 02:35 AM
This is something that might happen in an anime. :confused:

The Immortal One
04-24-2009, 07:43 AM
We know it is attracted to the evil of Shadowspawn thus, the few that did make it to the Two Rivers must have been coming in small groups for a fair amount of time before they actually attacked.
According to Verin, Shadowspawn may attract Machin Shin less, not more, than Ogier or humankind.


We know that Machin Shin has a will and can consume minds of those it encounters.
It consumes souls, not minds. Though I suppose that thay are pretty much the same in this case. And I woud argue that it does not have a will - it is simply attracted to food and is controlled by nothing other than a mindless hunger for souls.


As soon as it enveloped him it fled. But why did it flee? I don't think it actually fled him as much as it consumed some of Padan Fain's single minded desire to fallow Rand and immediatly went about that.
I agree that it absorbed Fain's need to follow Rand but I think it fled because, like Mordeth, it tried to consume a soul which had been directly touched by the Dark One, and not only that but one who's soul was also partially consumed and subsumed by Mordeth - a representative of all the evil of Aridhol.


We also know from the Great Hunt that it could at that point atleast partially leave the ways. Any time rand attempted to use the Ways Machin Shin did reach out and grab for him.
This also demonstrates it has a will and not just a mindless monster. We also know that since it fallowed him from waygate to waygate opening it must be able to find him in the outer world somehow.
I disagree. It simply demonstrates that a part of it's mindless hunger has absorbed Fain's need to follow Rand and I would say that such a need, like it's mindless hunger, is simply a basic, primitive desire - not a concious decision, not proof of Machin Shin being controlled by a will of it's own.


Rand also notices that Sammael had set weaves around his weaves as well. I beleive these weaves did two things they gave Sammael an escape hatch of sorts into the Ways as well as served as a trap if, as Sammael had planned, Rand fallowed him.
Why would Sammael need to, or even think to set up such an escape plan? If he needed to escape he could make a Travelling or Skimming gateway in seconds - much faster than opening a Waygate, even with some theoretical new weaves to make the Waygate open faster.

More likely Sammael's weaves were, like you say, traps in cse Rand comes too close. Or perhaps they are wards to detect Rand or Saidin, or even defences against Rand Channelling at him.




As for the part about the "Sammael" in KoD. I think Ishamael's idea is more likely - it was probably one of the other living Forsaken hiding behind a Mist of Mirrors (Illusion) weave.

Davian93
04-24-2009, 09:10 AM
I almost hate doing that...

Its ashame as they obviously put some serious thought and effort into it.

Belazamon
04-24-2009, 12:09 PM
It's kind of a shame it doesn't work, since RJ told us Sammael is deader than dirt. That could have been some storytelling gold right there. :)