Is Mesaana Laras?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Everything I can find says no, but each time I read the wrong scenes (Siuan's escape, for instance) I think that she is. Just about the only real indication seems to be in this bit:
TSR, The Truth of a Viewing, Chapter 47

Today she was examining lists of kitchen purchases, and the mason's report on an addition to the library. The sheer number of petty peculations people thought they could slip by always amazed her. So did the number that escaped notice by the women who oversaw these matters. For instance, Laras seemed to think watching accounts was beneath her since her title had been changed officially from simple chief cook to Mistress of the Kitchens. Danelle, on the other hand, the young Brown sister who was supposed to be watching Master Jovarin, the mason, was most likely letting herself be distracted by the books the fellow kept finding for her. That was the only way to explain her failure to question the number of workmen Jovarin claimed to have hired, with the first shipments of stone from Kandor just arriving at North harbor. He could rebuild the entire library with that many men. Danelle was simply too dreamy, even for a Brown. Perhaps a little time on a farm working penance would wake her. Laras would be more difficult to discipline; she was not Aes Sedai, so her authority with undercooks and scullions and potboys could be swamped all too easily. But perhaps she, too, could be sent for a "rest" in the country. That would...Laras changed apparently, right after Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne and Lanfear left the Tower to go play elsewhere. Around the time that Mesaana would have arrived there, as close as we can determine.

A fairly strong, but possibly not convincing argument against the idea is that Min would have noticed if Laras had had images around her all the time. That happens with all channelers, Warders and ta'veren, but no others as far as I know. It is not the case with stilled/gentled/severed people, as she only rarely saw anything around Logain. The big question now is: does she see images around a person who is hiding her ability to channel?

[Jonai]

Everything I can find says no, but each time I read the wrong scenes (Siuan's escape, for instance) I think that she is. Just about the only real indication seems to be in this bit:
Laras changed apparently, right after Egwene, Nynaeve, Elayne and Lanfear left the Tower to go play elsewhere. Around the time that Mesaana would have arrived there, as close as we can determine.

A fairly strong, but possibly not convincing argument against the idea is that Min would have noticed if Laras had had images around her all the time. That happens with all channelers, Warders and ta'veren, but no others as far as I know. It is not the case with stilled/gentled/severed people, as she only rarely saw anything around Logain. The big question now is: does she see images around a person who is hiding her ability to channel?

Good question. The images go hazy and blurry when the channeler is embracing the True Source. I don't know that Laras changed. She seems to really be good natured with Min, and it's not like that's a new thing. If you remember, when the Wondergirls were doing their punishments, she went up to Sheriam and demanded to know how much longer it would go on; she would not be responsible for breaking any woman's spirit, no matter what she had done. Helping Siuan escape definitely helped fomat chaos if you are really looking into the Laras angle, but I don't see an inconsistancy in character myself. Personally I think Mesaana is Danelle.

[Enigma]

Is Mesaana Laras? I don't think so. If she took over that role she would be pretty much confined to the kitchen areas. I don't recall any scenes in the WT where Laras was seen wandering the halls. Masaana need to be able to come and go as she pleases, she shows up pretty quick after Alviarin pages her.

My personal canditate is the young brown sister Danelle who was suppost to be supervising the masons and most of these turned out to be mercanarys who helped overthrow Siuan.

After the coup I think it was from Alviarin or Elaida's pov that she has been pushed aside from the levers of power by the ruling circle who were in charge before Elaida got to grips with power. Danelle did not seem to mind that she has been sidelined and this would fit if she was secretly a forsaken mastermind who was now pulling the strings behind the scenes.

I know its thin but a better disguise for a forsaken would be a junior nobody Aes Sedai with no close friends. If she is that junior no one takes her seriously but neither do they call the Tower Guard if she is seen in the halls.

If Laras was replace by Mesaana she could always weave a mask of mirrors disguise if she had to step outside the kitchen but what the point of a disguise that you have to hide when ever you want to leave the kitchen?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Enigma, Min disagrees with you about how easily Laras finds it to move through the Tower without rousing suspicion. Trepidation she does arouse, but not suspicion:
TSR, Deceptions, Chapter 17

A glance back proved her right. The Mistress of the Kitchens, a wine cask on legs, was beaming after her approvingly from the dining hall doorway. Who would have thought the woman had been a beauty in her youth, or would have a place in her heart for pretty, flirtatious girls? "Lively," she called them. Who would have suspected she would decide to take "Elmindreda" under her stout wing? It was hardly a comfortable position. Laras kept a protective eye on Min, an eye that seemed to find her anywhere in the Tower grounds. Min smiled back and patted her hair, now a round black cap of curls. Burn the woman! Doesn't she have something to cook, or some scullion to yell at?
A problem with the Danelle idea is that it would require Mesaana not just to mask her ability to channel, but to reduce it to a very specific level. AS pay a lot of attention to strength in the OP, and if one of them suddenly is a bit weaker or stronger than before that could lead to all sorts of awkward questions.

[Jonai]

A problem with the Danelle idea is that it would require Mesaana not just to mask her ability to channel, but to reduce it to a very specific level. AS pay a lot of attention to strength in the OP, and if one of them suddenly is a bit weaker or stronger than before that could lead to all sorts of awkward questions.

Both are possible. Whoever's place Mesaana took, I'm sure she Gitmoed them properly before they died. Danelle being pretty friendless and a bit of a loner seems to strengthen the Mesaana angle. One thing, when Messana is revealed in CoT, Alviarin almost recognizes her face. Assuming Alviarin isn't plain wrong, wouldn't that sort of preclude Laras from being Mesaana?

[Terez]

What's to say that Mesaana's face doesn't vaguely look like Laras'?

Not that I think she's Laras...

[Belazamon]

I'm inclined to say no, though it did occur to me once upon a time. I just can't see Mesaana successfully and undetectably taking over the life of someone who is so well-known in the Tower.

Incidentally, the "partial-Power-masking" thing has always struck me as a very large assumption, but I seem to remember someone trying to say RJ had said it was possible. Anybody got a quote on that? Because without that, I'm still inclined to think Mesaana isn't disguised as a Sister. Also because Alviarin was convinced that Mesaana would only disguise herself as a Sister - it's the WoT Law of Irony, after all. ;)

[Terez]

Yah, there's a quote, but I don't have time to fetch it. Click the link in my sig, then the interview database, then the link about the Power and channeling. It's in there.

[Marie Curie 7]

Yup. Luv the database... :)

The Path of Daggers book tour 20 November 1998, Washington DC - John Nowacki reporting

RJ said that a channeler can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that 1) few people know how to do it, and 2) the Aes Sedai don't even know these tricks are possible.

[Jonai]

Yeah that database is hot sex.

[Terez]

I'm sad about the missing chronology. :(

[Jonai]

Did steven cooper bite the dust? I always took that site for granted. It was so freaking awesome for charting plotlines in comparison with each other.

[Terez]

I contacted him by email recently, and got a reply. I should email him again and ask him what happened to it, if I can find him in my contacts...

[Bane Darkwulf]

This isn't that hard to figure out. Mesaana is a maid in the WT. A servant to the Servants. All she would have to do is hide her ability to channel, not partially mask it or hide it while wearing someone else's form. Those whom have servants don't pay attention to them, they are too far beneath their notice. I bet Mesaana has been at the WT since before the Supergirls got there. It isn't like she would have to hide her face, just her ability to channel. Barely any documentation survived the Breaking.

[Nazbaque]

A problem with the Danelle idea is that it would require Mesaana not just to mask her ability to channel, but to reduce it to a very specific level. AS pay a lot of attention to strength in the OP, and if one of them suddenly is a bit weaker or stronger than before that could lead to all sorts of awkward questions.
I was under the impression that the Aes Sedai couldn't say exactly how strong someone is unless they are actually holding the Power. Please correct me if I'm wrong (bloody school getting in the way of my reread)

[Weird Harold]

I contacted him by email recently, and got a reply. I should email him again and ask him what happened to it, if I can find him in my contacts...

Maybe Tamyrlin could host the chronology? The one page for 999NE I managed to save from my cache when I realized the sight was down is only 109KB, so the whole choronology can't be more than 400 KB or so.

[Weird Harold]

I was under the impression that the Aes Sedai couldn't say exactly how strong someone is unless they are actually holding the Power. Please correct me if I'm wrong (bloody school getting in the way of my reread)
It's men who can't judge strength unless they're holding Saidin. Women can sense and judge potential just by paying attention to others.

[Terez]

Maybe Tamyrlin could host the chronology? The one page for 999NE I managed to save from my cache when I realized the sight was down is only 109KB, so the whole chronology can't be more than 400 KB or so.
I'm sure he probably could host it, but I'm not sure that's the problem. I tried finding the guy in my contacts, too, and that didn't work. :( Maybe I will remember his address later...

[GonzoTheGreat]

The Wheel of Time turns, and Databases come and pass, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the Database that gave it birth comes again. In one Database, called the WOT Database by some, a Database yet to come, a Database long past, a wind rose in the great forest called Braem Wood. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.

And yeah, it would be a shame if the thing were really gone. Can we blame the investment bankers for this one too?

[Terez]

Why not? It's not like they'll notice.

[Nazbaque]

It's men who can't judge strength unless they're holding Saidin. Women can sense and judge potential just by paying attention to others.
Men can't tell if another man can channel at all unless they hold the Power. Women can (with women I mean, not men), but how accurately is what I can't recall.

[Jonai]

Men can't tell if another man can channel at all unless they hold the Power. Women can (with women I mean, not men), but how accurately is what I can't recall.

It's fairly accurate but it's not an exact science. They can tell if another is stronger or weaker, and to a certaind degree, how much stronger or weaker. If two women are fairly close though, there are several times in the series where Aes Sedai muse that the only way to tell would be to have a One Power duel. I.E. each holding as much as they can.

[Neilbert]

That's not a duel; a duel is a duel, as it must be, otherwise the skill component would never enter into strength.

[The Immortal One]

Hehehe, if Mesaana is Danelle I wonder if she teaches any novice classes.

[Weird Harold]

Men can't tell if another man can channel at all unless they hold the Power. Women can (with women I mean, not men), but how accurately is what I can't recall.
I don't belive there is any quantitative guidance in the books on how accurate the jusdgment of others' potential is, but from other factors, I'd guess that the maximum level of accuracy is within about 4.7% (1/21) because RJ simply didn't rank them with any greater degree of accuracy than that.

[Terez]

It is mentioned that some are so close in strength that they would have to duel to determine who was the strongest.

[Dom]

Hehehe, if Mesaana is Danelle I wonder if she teaches any novice classes.


Actually, that's exactly what I think Mesaana is busy with. Ever stopped to wonder how with the world more and more chaotic and dangerous, with the Tower broken publicly and now under siege, and without making any known effort to initiate 'active recruiting' the way Sheriam has done in Salidar, Elaida's number of novices has suddenly skyrocketed, relatively speaking, and this phenomenon seems to have started after Taim began to have much success at recruiting and Alviarin was sent on errands she found.. specious and beneath her status?

Mesaana doesn't and won't trust the Black Ajah. They are not her creatures. They were shaped by Ishamael and any Forsaken can access them. Mesaana likes to start with raw material and endoctrinate her own agents, and they are experts at sabotage, assassinations of authority figures, eliminations of scholars etc.

RJ pointed this out to us, in a way. In a QOTW, he said upon their release the Forsaken resumed their methods and pet obsessions from the AOL. You can bet Mesaana has put her hands on the novices... They are asked everywhere in the Tower, often attend the Amyrlin, Sitters and tons of sisters in the Ajah quarters. If Mesaana's methods of indoctrination are good, and apparently they were excellent, there's no telling what skills she's dared pass to her 'Children'. They may have gotten something in the same vein as Taim's 'special students'. They may be able to spin inverted listening wards etc. making them fairly efficient as spies all over the Tower (IRRC, the Amyrlin normally has a novice or two in attendance most of the time? That would explain how Mesaana knew the content of the meetings before Alviarin reported them, and why she could punish her for any omission...). Like Alviarin herself, they would be trained to record everything they hear and see. And in dangerous/useful skills (but not strength, unless Mesaana forced a few and showed them to disguise their real strength), they may be more than a match for most sisters. Mesaana could wreck a lot of havoc with a network of 'ninja novices", especially that before the Aes Sedai realise they are facing an organized mob of young darkfriends, it may be too late - most of their tasks may have been sucessfully accomplished.... key sisters killed, the Library in flame, the Vaults destroyed.... I expect Mesaana to at least attempt to destroy the Tower Library and the Vaults of OP objects at the end - as I suspect she also had Alviarin pass orders to DF circle leaders all over the place to stand ready to strike at the vaults in Tear, Cairhien etc. and at Rand's Academies and the principal Libraries. Mesaana, I'm quite sure, intends to finish the job of eradicating knowledge/civilization that the Sealing stopped right before completion. And once her 'grande oeuvre' is accomplished, Mesaana will be perfectly happy to let Semirhage's forces have a go at finishing up the remnant of the Aes Sedai Guild the trio hates. Demandred, I think, hates those who follow LTT even more - so I expect his main role was to sabotage the groups of followers of Rand - always a few steps behind the Dragon (the more it changes...), infiltrating 'proxies' that will backstab Rand's forces during TG... the BT being only the most obvious of these efforts, I think Demandred has gathered agents in most groups involved with Rand, incl. Bashere's Saldaeans, Aiel etc. The 'original plan' of the trio, I think, was to have Rand prisoner in Tar Valon and get Seanchan seeking to capture Rand from Aes Sedai, 'Dragonsworn' (incl. Asha'man) trying to 'rescue him' all fight one another at Tar Valon on the eve of TG. But the trio adapts, obviously.

I'm also half convinced Mesaana is behind the support from the novices Egwene is gaining. My suspicion is that Mesaana considers her secret network well hidden enough from everyone (incl. her two allies) to risk using it to nudge Egwene in the right direction without Moridin realising she's behind the new 'political' developments.

Ah oh... I think she's got a few of the Younglings in her 'arsenal' as well.

[Neilbert]

- For sheep the evicted, who has heard that I assigned various numerical strengths in the One Power to Rand, Ishamael and others based on a scale of 100 points, no I did not. I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth.

- Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve. I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment. The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve. Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%. Again, the maths are all yours. Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels. Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

For Sidious, when Alivia faced Cyndane, Alivia was by far the stronger because of her angreal, and had various tools (ter’angreal) to work with besides, but Cyndane was much, much more knowledgeable about channeling. Alivia, after all, knew relatively little except how to be a weapon. That was very useful in the situation, but in this case, knowledge versus strength made it an even match.

The problem here is that RJ uses "strength" interchangeably, to refer both to the amount of One Power an individual can draw, and also to refer to what that individual can do with that amount of One Power. Two people with differing skills can do different things with the same amount of Saidin and Saidar.

This is why when two people are close in strength (amount they can hold), they need to duel to determine strength (effectiveness).

Seriously, this should go in an FAQ somewhere. I know we've had this discussion before.