shredding time... Food for Thought: How to Win Tarmon Gai'don

[hippie-joe]

So the theory you are about to read will be laid out so that all the information will seem a meaningless tangle. A kin to Verin’s version of compulsion, in the end I will pull it all together so that you can see the intricate lace that is. It becomes very, intriguing.
First I will lay out several commonly known key factors. you will be thinking, ok where is he going with this? Then I will layer a little more on top interweaving it. Intelligent people will start to see where I’m going with all this. Then finally I lay the last little bit down and pull it all together. So sit back, relax, prepare to be enlightened.



We all know that the Dark One has been imprisoned sense the time of the creation.

Quote: The Creator imprisoned the Dark One outside of the Pattern at the moment of creation.





Quote: Demandred's analysis [LOC: Prologue, The First Message, 15] implies that the DO is imprisoned OUTSIDE the world/Pattern, in some sort of "Dungeon Dimension."





Like I said common knowledge…





We also know that the wheel is a never ending cycle, a pattern, made of seven ages.

Now the way I see the creator of the world of tWoT, is the same as I see the creator of what some might call the reality in which we exist. In that, it got the wheel spinning and now it leaves it be. Not intervening with the affairs of its inhabitance.





Furthermore, in the age of legends a bore was created in the DO’s prison, accidentally or not, it happened.





Quote: [Guide: 3, the Age of Legends, 34]. So, the Sharom was some sort of HEP (High-Energy Power) research facility, and its only connection with the DO's prison is that Mierin and Beidomon created the Bore inside it.


Mierin and Beidomon tap into what they think is a new source of the One Power and unexpectedly open a hole into the Dark One's prison. The Sharom at the Collam Daan explodes in black fire. (TSR, Ch26)

Now the nature of this bore I find interesting, but will only briefly expand on it now before moving on.

Quote: Demandred's analysis [LOC: Prologue, The First Message, 15] The Bore is a kind of thinning of the universe, a weakness in the space-time continuum, by which the DO can reach out of the Dungeon Dimension to affect/enter the Real World

After all this happened Mierin changed sides and names, her new name, one we all know. One mothers use to frighten they’re children still on apron strings, to keep them in line.

Quote: Mierin proclaims her allegiance to the Great Lord of the Dark in the Hall of the Servants. (TDR,Ch36)
Unlike the other Forsaken, Mierin claims her own new name, Lanfear.

This is nothing new, yet.


So up to this point everything has been vaguely related. This is where I go a bit off track, where it begins looking like a strange twist in subject matter, a tangled web. We all know about balefire, and its dangers, why it’s forbidden. But here’s a refresher,

Quote: Balefire is an extremely dangerous weapon of the One Power. It actually destroys the thread of existence back into time, the time being proportional to the strength of the beam. Balefire was used in the War of Power destroying entire cities until it was learned that excessive use of balefire could threaten the existence of the entire Pattern.


"When anything is destroyed with balefire, it ceases to exist before the moment of its destruction, like a thread that burns away from where the flame touched it. The greater the power of the balefire, the further back in time it ceases to exist. The strongest [Moiraine] can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern...For as far back as you destroy [something], whatever it did during that time no longer happened. Only the memories remain, for those who saw or experienced it." [TFOH: 6, Gateways, 119]

Demandred hesitated. A bead of sweat slid half an inch on his cheek; it seemed to take an hour. For a year during the War of Power, both sides had used balefire, until they learned the consequences. Without agreement, or truce—there had never been a truce any more than there had been quarter—each side simply stopped. Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule. [Prologue - The First Message- LoC]

So they saw how disastrous too much use of balefire could be.


All that being restated, my theory, normally I would have side stepped all that, but ya’ll require it for this to be even considered for posting, I prefer short and to the point. So my theory, I have a hard time seeing the divine intervention of the creator coming down to return the prison of the DO to a pre-bore state, and we know that there are no beginnings in the turning of the wheel. We also know that there is a time in each pattern of seven ages where the prison is unscathed. So, this means Rand must find a way to get it back to that state, without the creator.

Quotes I posted above state that Lanfear was one of the first to use the new source, which causes the bore. That being said and the nature of balefire also posted, the only way I can see Rand returning the prison back to pre-bore state is to use and extremely strong beam of balefire at Lanfear. It would have to be strong enough to singe her out of the pattern, nearly 3500 years worth. If this is done then she would never have tapped into this new source thus never creating a bore in the DO’s prison. Now this would pose other problems,

Entire cities died in balefire that year, hundreds of thousands of threads burned from the Pattern; reality itself almost unraveled, world and universe evaporating like mist. If balefire was unleashed once more, there might be no world to rule. [Prologue - The First Message- LoC]

Even if he makes it a narrow beam of highly concentrated balefire, how far will that beam travel? Who and what else will it singe out? These problems, these holes in the pattern, after he does this will place the entire pattern on a swords blade teetering on the brink of collapse. Now if it doesn’t all just fall apart and life continues on for everyone unbeknownst to them, then the pattern should regain some of its strength (basic weaving ideas and a little of my own theory). The holes will still remain in a portion of the pattern and the strengthening doesn’t remove it from the blade of the sword. Quite the opposite, this sets up the world, it sets it up to be easier to break when the time of the breaking comes again. It could takes hundreds, even thousands of years considering the slowing which people who can channel experience, but we know that saidin is free of the taint till the prison is bored and sealed, again,

Quote: The thirteen Forsaken meet with the Great Lord in the Pit of Doom. Lews Therin and his companions seal the Bore, trapping the Forsaken for over three thousand years. For Lanfear it is a dreamless sleep. (TDR, Ch36)

and that the dragon will be present for the resealing.

Quote: "Time is a wheel with seven spokes, each spoke an Age. As the Wheel turns, the Ages come and go, each leaving memories that fade to legend, then to myth, and are forgotten by the time that Age comes again. The Pattern of an Age is slightly different each time an Age comes, and each time it is subject to greater change." (TEotW, Glossary)

So this period of time is unknown.

I believe the holes in the pattern will hold an integral role in the breaking, because anything riddled with holes is much easier to break.

How’s that for lace?

[Terez]

I haven't read it yet. I'm about to go fail a German final. Then I'll be back. :)

[Davian93]

The Bore is a kind of thinning of the universe, a weakness in the space-time continuum, by which the DO can reach out of the Dungeon Dimension to affect/enter the Real World

The Bore is the bore...Shayol Ghul is at a thin part of the pattern where the bore can be sensed...I believe that is what you are referring to there. LTT attacked at Shayol Ghul because they could "sense" the Bore there, not because of any actual physical location.

[Davian93]

Quotes I posted above state that Lanfear was one of the first to use the new source, which causes the bore. That being said and the nature of balefire also posted, the only way I can see Rand returning the prison back to pre-bore state is to use and extremely strong beam of balefire at Lanfear. It would have to be strong enough to singe her out of the pattern, nearly 3500 years worth. If this is done then she would never have tapped into this new source thus never creating a bore in the DO’s prison. Now this would pose other problems,

I know for a fact that this possibility has been discussed in the past and I believe there were several major issues with it. First one would be this: That strong of BF would likely completely destroy the Pattern as it would burn back far too long and destroy the current day Randland due to the changes it would force on the Pattern.

Terez would have the references/threads as to where we discussed this. I believe someone even asked RJ about this previously.

[hippie-joe]

The Bore is the bore...Shayol Ghul is at a thin part of the pattern where the bore can be sensed...I believe that is what you are referring to there. LTT attacked at Shayol Ghul because they could "sense" the Bore there, not because of any actual physical location.


that was a quote i got from a link. i did this b4 i knew how to do the quote thing, but yes that is more than likely accutare

Terez would have the references/threads as to where we discussed this. I believe someone even asked RJ about this previously.

you may be right but this was what i found in The Wheel of Time FAQ.


Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One back to before where the taint was created?


Read the previous paragraphs about what BF does, and why it is dangerous to use. Now, supposing that 1) the DO has a corporeal body which could BE balefired, and 2) enough BF could be produced to zap the DO back 3500 years (neither of which is at all certain), consider what would happen to the poor Pattern of All Creation if one of the prime movers in its weaving was BFed. The end of the world would probably happen for sure, then.
Remember that the DO is the source of the whole history of the Third Age. Everything everybody has done for the past 3500 or so years has been affected in some way by the DO. Why is Joe Al'Schmoe of the Two Rivers a farmer in a forgotten province of Andor, and not a citizen of one of the most powerful, strongest nations in Randland? It's because Manetheren was destroyed in the Trolloc Wars, which were initiated by Ishamael, who was the DO's right-hand-man throughout the Third Age.

Another point (via G.G. Kay's Fionavar Tapestry) is that maybe the DO doesn't even have a thread to balefire. After all, the DO's prison exists "outside the Pattern." Perhaps the DO itself does, too. (NB: the no-body/no-thread argument applies to "Why doesn't somebody BF the DO," no matter if you try to BF him back 3500 years or 3 seconds. The "Pattern" argument does, as well - if there is no DO, what happens the next time the Wheel comes around to the AOL/Third Age again?)

[Davian93]

Ironically, this same theory was posted on the main site about 5 years ago...and I even responded to it then...here is the link: http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=87&theo=1603

My reply then: "Think about it. Even Rand pretty much channeling as much as he can only eliminated maybe a half hour when he killed Rahvin with balefire. So even with the CK, it would be impossible for him to eliminate a thread back more than 3,000 years. Besides, who knows how much damage that much balefire would do. Ripping out a thread from 3,000 years of the pattern could tear the pattern asunder and in actuality release the DO from his prison. Lanfear is too essential to the pattern for Rand to be able to destroy everythings she's done back to the boring into the DO's prison. Interesting idea though.:) "

[Davian93]

Another version of it was posted in 01/2004 by Oatman. Again, here is the link:

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=87&theo=1555

[hippie-joe]

i didn't actually find anything about BFing lanfear and only her. the real question is what happened to Beidomon cause he may have done it on his own later even with lanfear not convincing him to help her

[hippie-joe]

Ironically, this same theory was posted on the main site about 5 years ago...and I even responded to it then...here is the link: http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=87&theo=1603

My reply then: "Think about it. Even Rand pretty much channeling as much as he can only eliminated maybe a half hour when he killed Rahvin with balefire. So even with the CK, it would be impossible for him to eliminate a thread back more than 3,000 years. Besides, who knows how much damage that much balefire would do. Ripping out a thread from 3,000 years of the pattern could tear the pattern asunder and in actuality release the DO from his prison. Lanfear is too essential to the pattern for Rand to be able to destroy everythings she's done back to the boring into the DO's prison. Interesting idea though.:) "

true but if he get's several circles of AS and Asha'man together with the chueldan key or how ever it's spelled along with cullandar or how ever it's spelled. who's to say...

[Davian93]

true but if he get's several circles of AS and Asha'man together with the chueldan key or how ever it's spelled along with cullandar or how ever it's spelled. who's to say...

Even if it "worked" it would likely unravel the Pattern and free the DO from his prison. That's a HUGE disruption of the Pattern.

[hippie-joe]

Even if it "worked" it would likely unravel the Pattern and free the DO from his prison. That's a HUGE disruption of the Pattern.

have you ever had one of those blankets woven with thick thread? i have and have pulled threads out from the middle
and it didn't unravel. now i realise that the pattern of tWoT is much more intricate and complex but i don't think it would unravel, just loosen things up a bit. and like i said, set things up for the next breaking

[hippie-joe]

yeah there are like 1400 some odd theories i didn't go back that far, so...

shot me, but like my signature says.

there aren't really any new ideas any more just modified ones

at least they were all like 5 years old

[Davian93]

FWIW, I wasn't trying to bash you by bringing up the other theories. The only reason I even knew they were there was my longevity here. I was just pointing you to other similar discussions we've all had on the subject. Perhaps the Pattern could survive such a disruption and perhaps not. I tend to think it wouldn't as her thread is so heavily interwoven in such major events of the previous Age and its aftermath...I very well could be wrong.

[hippie-joe]

FWIW, I wasn't trying to bash you by bringing up the other theories. The only reason I even knew they were there was my longevity here. I was just pointing you to other similar discussions we've all had on the subject. Perhaps the Pattern could survive such a disruption and perhaps not. I tend to think it wouldn't as her thread is so heavily interwoven in such major events of the previous Age and its aftermath...I very well could be wrong.

don't worry i'm not offended or up set, just trying to back up my theory. but your right there is no way to tell till the story is told...

i think the pattern will deffinately be altared and many ppl will be confused and dissoriented cause BF doesn't change the memory of how it had happened in their reality. but i don't see it unraveling, i mean most of that time was spent imprisoned with the DO

[Terez]

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting (http://linuxmafia.com/%7Epam/ACOS_signings.html)

Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy the world.
As for balefiring Lanfear, I'm pretty sure we determined that the quantity necessary there would also destroy the world. Rand's bar of balefire that took out Rahvin was "man-thick" and only removed a few minutes from the Pattern. We're talking about more than 3000 years that would have to be erased to seal the bore by balefiring Lanfear. Simple math says it's not possible.

[hippie-joe]

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As for balefiring Lanfear, I'm pretty sure we determined that the quantity necessary there would also destroy the world. Rand's bar of balefire that took out Rahvin was "man-thick" and only removed a few minutes from the Pattern. We're talking about more than 3000 years that would have to be erased to seal the bore by balefiring Lanfear. Simple math says it's not possible.


who says BF to the inth degree = larger beam?

i say we don't know enough about the enigma of BF (and neither does any one in randworld) to determine this.

it leaves a rather large gray area yes...

but that's a theory for ya:)

i think i'd be really dissapointed if in the end the creator came down and interviened. if that's the case then there is really no point to having a champion, is there?

as i see it there is still much to learn about BF b4 this can be completely dismissed.(in our world of theoryland and that of randland)

[Davian93]

who says stronger BF= larger beam?

Well, I'm pretty sure RJ mentioned it but you could also use all the applications of BF we have seen so far in the books and the correlation between the strength of the user and the width of the beam as proof.

[Terez]

who says stronger BF= larger beam?
I don't feel like digging up all the quotes again, but there are tons. I gave them in this thread, I think:

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/2124?page=1

I'll read it, and if it's not there, I'll try to find the right thread.

[hippie-joe]

Well, I'm pretty sure RJ mentioned it but you could also use all the applications of BF we have seen so far in the books and the correlation between the strength of the user and the width of the beam as proof.

i'm not saying it doesn't just that we can't know for sure:D

[Terez]

i'm not saying it doesn't just that we can't know for sure:D
We don't have to know things for sure to call them unlikely. Just because this is "Theoryland" doesn't mean that every wacky unlikely idea that doesn't happen to be explicitly disproven is equal to likely ideas with supporting evidence.

[Davian93]

i'm not saying it doesn't just that we can't know for sure:D

Occam's Razor...

[hippie-joe]

We don't have to know things for sure to call them unlikely. Just because this is "Theoryland" doesn't mean that every wacky unlikely idea that doesn't happen to be explicitly disproven is equal to likely ideas with supporting evidence.

also true...

thing is even if RJ were still with us if we asked him straight out, if this is how it is to end, i can't see him being clear on this. he would prolly be extremely vague as to not give too much away. don't you agree? and give answers like, " that would be incredibly dangerous, as it would possibly cause the pattern to unravel." something to that effect.
just a little misdirection that's all.
he'd zig when you're sure he'd zag

believe me when i say this, i'm not trying to resurect the way of the goat, it's more like the way of the leaf goat or something, at least with this theory anyways.

i am amendable on many matters, but this one...

well how ever it ends, i will be happy because it ended.

just as long as the creator stays where ever it's been for how ever long it's been there:)

[Davian93]

Actually, he'd probably just RAFO it.

[hippie-joe]

Occam's Razor...

who is this Occam you speak of¿?

and i still haven't figured out what RAFO means

[Terez]

Read And Find Out

Occam's Razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor)

[Davian93]

RAFO= Read And Find Out

A common response from RJ on questions he didn't want to answer or felt weren't a good idea to answer off the cuff due to plot issues.

[Davian93]

who is this Occam you speak of¿?

and i still haven't figured out what RAFO means

Occam's Razor=Simplest explanation is usually the most likely.

[Terez]

You are such a spammer, Dav.

[hippie-joe]

right on, right on

i got a hunch about this one guys...

i just wish someone hadn't thought of it back in 2004 :(

[Davian93]

You are such a spammer, Dav.

I know...I should just edit my older post but I was responding to two different questions so I answered them separately. Besides, if you edit a post here, nobody can tell as it won't show as an updated thread like it did on EZBoard.

[Strongman]

I don't think that the bore has to be made "like new". I think Rand and co. will patch it, and it will be forgotten about and in a few thousand years, the next "Lanfear" will find where it is patched and start experimenting again. Then our story start all over again....

[Mat is Better]

I don't think that the bore has to be made "like new". I think Rand and co. will patch it, and it will be forgotten about and in a few thousand years, the next "Lanfear" will find where it is patched and start experimenting again. Then our story start all over again....I thought it was going to be made whole again. LTT patched it and it didn't work so well. For the age, where the bore was drilled, to come again it would need to be whole.

[Terez]

Herid Fel did imply that it had to be whole like the Creator made it by the time it comes around to someone to drill the hole again.

[Mat is Better]

Herid Fel
I miss that guy :(

[hippie-joe]

I miss that guy :(

me too, coocky old bat, i bet he could say if this would be the way to do it :(

[Dom]

[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT]
As for balefiring Lanfear, I'm pretty sure we determined that the quantity necessary there would also destroy the world. Rand's bar of balefire that took out Rahvin was "man-thick" and only removed a few minutes from the Pattern. We're talking about more than 3000 years that would have to be erased to seal the bore by balefiring Lanfear. Simple math says it's not possible.


Indeed. Even if the Choedan Kal multiplied Rand's strength a million times, we would still be way short of ca. 3100 years.

There's also the 'small' problem that Mierin Aronaille is most likely months dead. We don't know how transmigration to a new body works - we have not even the beginning of a solid knowledge about it, but a widespread theory is that the Dark One 'piggy-backed' on the threads in the Pattern of the poor sobs whose bodies were stolen, attaching the souls of his Chosen to these life threads to provide them with a 'new' life thread (because he is not a creator, and can't create a new life thread - so far the evidence is that Shai'tan can only twist or corrupt life, he cannot in any way create life). If that is so, Mierin's thread has ended months in the past, and Cyndane now 'continues' the thread of the poor woman in which her soul was put, and how would a vast amount of balefire affect her? Surely, the 'window of opportunity' the DO must work under to catch souls has a similar counterpart with the effects of balefire, ie: there may well be a time limit after which the soul is 'gone' and even erasing part of the Pattern won't undo the effect of the death. In effect, it would mean it's too late for balefire to undo anything from the life of Mierin Aronaille.

There is also the problem that Mierin was but a member of a larger team that drilled the Bore.

There is also the bug that balefire in the series is clearly a 'tool' by which humanity can self-destruct itself out of existence if they so choose - in the extreme an equivalent to embracing Shai'tan's cause. A large enough amount could undo Creation. It is but one other example of 'how far is too far to try to stop Shai'tan, resulting in something as terrible as letting him win.", an important theme in the story. Like everything else, and even more so than everything else as it's the most dangerous tool at human's disposal, balefire must be used with great balance/restraint. Some undoing of the Pattern is necessary to stop Shai'tan, and the Shadow knows some undoing of the Pattern would help free Shai'tan, but too much of balefire would doom reality, most likely resulting in a 'draw', the undoing of Creation and the Dark One and Creator would be back to square one, one capable of creation and the other capable of destruction, the Creator reorganizing his energy into their male and female components to remake Creation from scratch, the DO with his energy that is chaos striving to destroy his efforts again. ,

Finally, I would say that "balefiring Lanfear" seriously lack any spiritual dimension. That's a comic book achievement, not the sort of sacrifice/deed worthy of a world saviour at the end of his 'quest'. I seriously doubt Jordan would have gone for a lame solution like this. There are even some clues that the One Power is not the solution to the problem (not the least the fact the effet of channelling the OP near the Bore can have catastophic effects).

[hippie-joe]

Herid Fel did imply that it had to be whole like the Creator made it by the time it comes around to someone to drill the hole again.

besides with the way the wheel works if it didn't get set back to the pre-bore state then that is like taking a spoke out of the wheel.
at some point it has to be made as good as it was when the creator made it.

[hippie-joe]

that is a good point... lanfear is gone and we don't know enough about transmigration.

as far as this goes...

Indeed. Even if the Choedan Kal multiplied Rand's strength a million times, we would still be way short of ca. 3100 years.

there are alot of ppl who can channel and if a circle big enough using sa'angreal and angreal may be what is required

and

There are even some clues that the One Power is not the solution to the problem (not the least the fact the effet of channelling the OP near the Bore can have catastophic effects).

i would like to see these referances.
who said you'd have to do it near the bore?

[Terez]

Okay, here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=699) is the thread where I posted the quotes about the correlation between balefire size and strength, and also the amount of time it takes for the body to disappear completely (it's slower with weaker balefire, and with Rahvin, there was barely a split second of fading out - Nynaeve wasn't even sure she saw it, it was so fast).

[Terez]

there are alot of ppl who can channel and if a circle big enough using sa'angreal and angreal may be what is required Linking does not even give you the full sum of your own power and the person you're linking with - you only get a fraction of that. So, all the people that they can link with won't make a hair's difference, even if the circle is maximized with the strongest available channelers, 37 women and 35 men, and each of them using the strongest angreal and sa'angreal in existence.

[Dom]

Linking does not even give you the full sum of your own power and the person you're linking with - you only get a fraction of that. So, all the people that they can link with won't make a hair's difference, even if the circle is maximized with the strongest available channelers, 37 women and 35 men, and each of them using the strongest angreal and sa'angreal in existence.

And that's assuming we don't get an instant replay of the Fateful Concord the second Rand suggests such a plan...

[tworiverswoman]

Dom - your post about piggy-backing the threads of the transmigrated souls caught my attention. Didn't RJ once address the issue of souls and threads directly in an interview? (sorry, I'm at work and shouldn't be writing this, so I'm not taking the time to research - which is going to make me fall flat on my face shortly...)

We know of several "states" a soul can be in:

Normal, living person - attached to body, a thread in the Pattern

Normal, dead person - in the "soul pool" - no thread

Hero of the Horn - when alive, same as #1 -- when dead, "alive" in TAR - I'm not clear on if they still have a thread -- I always thought Birgitte nearly died when dragged into the world because she was in conflict with her status as "Dead, parked on the sidelines" until her new body was able to re-attach itself to the Pattern through Elayne.

Dual souls in one body (Luc/Isam and Padan/Mordeth) - one or two threads? This is another tricky one...

Gray man - Soul "eaten" by the Dark One - still has a thread until the body dies.

Transmigrated soul - two bodies (one presumably dead) and one soul. How many threads? I'm believing only one. If the thread is removed you die. If the soul is removed you go on living.


Ah, hell - can't stand researchless posting...Date: 2000-04-04 | Location: Netherlands from Emma
Type: Live | Questioner: Unknown

Q: So threads and souls are the same thing?
A: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.


ETA: hippie-joe, I'm coming down on the negative side on your theory. Every remark made by book characters and RJ himself seems to say that there's no possible way to generate THAT powerful a blast of balefire. "The strongest [Moiraine] can manage will remove only a few seconds from the Pattern." Even though she's not known as being a PARTICULARLY powerful channeller, she's not weak, either.

Linking doesn't do what you think it does -- nor would it be able to reach the power needed to do what you want, due to purely human limitations.
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
Any woman who can channel can learn linking, and one who does not know how to form a link can be brought into one by someone who does know how. Leading a circle however, depends on both strength and skill, which are not the same thing. The greater the combination of strength and skill, the larger the circle that a woman, or man, can lead.

[Weird Harold]

there are alot of ppl who can channel and if a circle big enough using sa'angreal and angreal may be what is required




we have three data points:


Rand's Man-thick Destruction of Rahvin.

Rand's destruction of the Darkhound at Mat's door in Ruidhean.

Moggy's destruction of Nyneave's boatmen.


Moggy's destruction of Nynreave's boatmen is probably the most relevant to this discussion because she fueled that bar of Balefire with as much hatered as she could manage, so it is an example of the maximum time that a channeler of Moggy's strength could erase -- roughly ten to twenty minutes, (if I remember the balefire discussions from a few years ago correctly.)

Moggy is stronger than Moiraine, so Moiraine could NOT have erased Be'Lal further back than ten to twenty minutes -- and the comparison of the balefire thickness would lead me to estimate Be'Lal died no more than a minute before Moiraine killed him.

For this discussion, the progression along those threee data points is what is relevant.

Using different approximations than in that thread:

Moggy burned Nyneave's boat back 200 yards for maybe three minutes of time burned back. (It could have been as little as 30 seconds or as much as ten minutes, depending on how fast the water taxi was moving.

Rand burned the Darkhounds at Mat's door back 300 seconds (five minutes or so)

Rand Burned RAhvin back at least 3000 seconds (50 minutes) and possibly as much as 30,000 seconds (a bit over 8.3 days)

Extrapolate the size of the balefire beams -- bar, shaft, and man-thick shaft -- out to cover 3,100 years or 9,776,160,000 seconds. I figure you'd need a minimum beam width of 3.26 Million times "man-thick;" at the very least, that's a LOT of collateral damage.

Considering that would require 3.6 million times Rand's maximum effort (with the fat-man angreal) and you've got a probable power shortage to contend with as well.

That is all assuming that the power requirement is a linear function of the bar thickness and the time paradox is a linear function of bar thickness.

[hippie-joe]

ok so with all this info i've taken in today i still fell that lanfear has to be BFed, but how to do it? or killed b4 she taps the TP

this is where it gets even more like the previous theory that is similar to this.

isn't skimming outside of space and time? i sware i remember reading that somewhere, i think it was when mogh was skimming to be fitted with the mind trap in aCoS, after being freed from the a'dam.

i've lookd around and can't find it on the referance sites, but i just got done rereading that one like 3 weeks ago and i'm pretty sure it goes into detail as to why it doesn't take very long to skim somewhere. something about being out side of space and time.

if this where the case and you knew how to weave it, and had an intimate knowledge of a place in that time period could you not skim back in time?

again if this is the case then someone could go back and do it b4 it happens. then it wouldn't matter at all. they could even do it with out the OP.

i wish i could find that passage so i could straighten myself out, but i know mentioning this, ya'll will do a pleanty good job of that for me. lol:D

[Davian93]

Stick with it man...don't let anyone steal or shatter your precious precious theory!!! :)


~goes back to petting "Shaido Are the Remnant of a Remnant that Survive" theory...as well as "Three Seals are already broken" theory~

My Precious!

[hippie-joe]

isn't skimming outside of space and time? i sware i remember reading that somewhere, i think it was when mogh was skimming to be fitted with the mind trap in aCoS, after being freed from the a'dam.

i've looked around and can't find it on the referance sites, but i just got done rereading that one like 3 weeks ago and i'm pretty sure it goes into detail as to why it doesn't take very long to skim somewhere. something about being out side of space and time.

if this where the case and you knew how to weave it, and had an intimate knowledge of a place in that time period could you not skim back in time?

again if this is the case then someone could go back and do it b4 it happens. then it wouldn't matter at all. they could even do it with out the OP.

i wish i could find that passage so i could straighten myself out, but i know mentioning this, ya'll will do a pleanty good job of that for me. lol:D

ok so i got home and looked and it was not explained just before mogh got the mind trap... :( i can admit when i'm wrong but i swear i remember something to that effect

[Weird Harold]

isn't skimming outside of space and time? i sware i remember reading that somewhere, i think it was when mogh was skimming to be fitted with the mind trap in aCoS, after being freed from the a'dam.

You're misremembering the characteristics of a vacuole:


Vacuole
A vacuole is a bubble of space and time that is separate from the Pattern. Time can run much faster or slower than normal in a vacuole. Vacuoles were studied during the Age of Legends, but were never fully understood. If a vacuole breaks loose, something which can happen randomly, it and its contents are lost forever. (ACoS,Ch25)


However, like T'A'R, time runs at different rates, but it NEVER runs backwards.


if this where the case and you knew how to weave it, and had an intimate knowledge of a place in that time period could you not skim back in time?

again if this is the case then someone could go back and do it b4 it happens. then it wouldn't matter at all. they could even do it with out the OP.

While the WOT is circular and the future and past are interchangeable depending on which way you look around the Wheel, Time only flows in one direction. It might be possible to hide in a vacuole for however long a Full Turning minus 3100 years or so and do away witht he NEXT drilling of the Bore, but nobody from the last Turning managed to stop Meirin and Co.

[hippie-joe]

hmmm...

ok, well then, she has to die some how.

i mean really i will lose so, so much respect if it boils down to divine intervention. i can't be the only one in this boat.

unless the point is to just distroy everything, forcing the creator to come down from it perch and remake...

that would be exceptable but i don't think it would make for a good ending, i still don't think i would be all to satisfied with that...

as far as the shaido being a remnant of the remnant... yeah, right. ha

i suppose we shall RAFO, maybe something new will be learned. maybe they'll learn to fold the pattern and punch through similar to traveling.

i bet the answer revolves around fels books that min is reading

[Mat is Better]

hmmm...
i mean really i will lose so, so much respect if it boils down to divine intervention. i can't be the only one in this boat.
No. It won't have anything to do with divine intervention. Do you honestly think that RJ would throw away the plot by doing something as easy and stupid as having a character that is never around show up at the last minute and save the day? The whole series is about the Dragon's battle, not the creator's. Furthermore, and I could just be smoking pot here, but isn't there a point in the first book where the creator says he will not interfere but that there is a hero who can save them "if he will"? <-- Paraphrazed

[hippie-joe]

No. It won't have anything to do with divine intervention. Do you honestly think that RJ would throw away the plot by doing something as easy and stupid as having a character that is never around show up at the last minute and save the day? The whole series is about the Dragon's battle, not the creator's. Furthermore, and I could just be smoking pot here, but isn't there a point in the first book where the creator says he will not interfere but that there is a hero who can save them "if he will"? <-- Paraphrazed

i never said that i believed this a possibility...

i would really hate it if that's how it happened to end.

but the only way to make the bore as good as the creator made it is to kill lanfear b4 she and her team touch the TP...

i think you were smoking pot there and coughed when you got to the part where i said it would be a sub-par ending if it happened that way, thus skipping over that part...

personally i think the creator went off somewhere else to continue creating other things, like platapuses and the like

[Neilbert]

Linking does not even give you the full sum of your own power and the person you're linking with - you only get a fraction of that. So, all the people that they can link with won't make a hair's difference, even if the circle is maximized with the strongest available channelers, 37 women and 35 men, and each of them using the strongest angreal and sa'angreal in existence.

We had this argument already. Linking enables a greater result even if the total power is reduced.

- For Infested Templar, two women linking have slightly less of saidar available to them than the two women would have individually. But it can be used much, much more precisely, and therefore more effectively, than they could manage working merely as partners. The reduction also occurs for men entering a circle. One man in a circle means that only the amount of saidin that he can handle, less the reduction for being in a circle, is available. Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

Furthermore Ashaman and Aes Sedai make larger gateways blah blah blah...

It is certainly not unreasonable to suggest that Rand might get a boost from being linked with a maxed out circle.

[Terez]

Nobody said he wouldn't get a boost. Just that it wouldn't be anywhere near as much as is needed to balefire someone's thread back 3500 years. We dealt with the Choedan Kal first, cause it's the only thing that even comes close to giving Rand that much Power, but the power he could gain from a circle of 72 is, in comparison, not much at all.

Precision≠power. ;)

[Crispin's Crispian]

Nobody said he wouldn't get a boost. Just that it wouldn't be anywhere near as much as is needed to balefire someone's thread back 3500 years. We dealt with the Choedan Kal first, cause it's the only thing that even comes close to giving Rand that much Power, but the power he could gain from a circle of 72 is, in comparison, not much at all.

Precision≠power. ;)
I agree that it wouldn't be enough, but I do wonder how much power could be generated if the circle of 72 used the Choedan Kal (assuming the saidar key was intact).

The other point is, Rand apparently skimmed the Taint off of all of saidin, which means he channeled all of it by himself. Is there even enough saidin to generate enough power to do something so dramatic as 3,500 year balefire?

I don't remember--is saidin infinite but bounded, or finite but unbounded? If the latter, you might end up running out of available One Power.

[FelixPax]

We don't have to know things for sure to call them unlikely. Just because this is "Theoryland" doesn't mean that every wacky unlikely idea that doesn't happen to be explicitly disproven is equal to likely ideas with supporting evidence.

Yes, wouldn't it be a paradox to have a BF turn the wheel of time back more in time, than the channeler firing the BF is in age?

Not really possible, and if it was possible is would screw-up the whole storyline.

[hippie-joe]

I agree that it wouldn't be enough, but I do wonder how much power could be generated if the circle of 72 used the Choedan Kal (assuming the saidar key was intact).

The other point is, Rand apparently skimmed the Taint off of all of saidin, which means he channeled all of it by himself. Is there even enough saidin to generate enough power to do something so dramatic as 3,500 year balefire?

I don't remember--is saidin infinite but bounded, or finite but unbounded? If the latter, you might end up running out of available One Power.


or even both keys...

and heres an off the wall idea.

what if the TP was used? use the DO's power against him... that would be a good twist, i think

[Davian93]

The Female CK is gone...remember? The key melted and the statue itself is destroyed.

[hippie-joe]

The Female CK is gone...remember? The key melted and the statue itself is destroyed.

yeah i remember, at shadar logoth, but there was a broken one in... crap! was it tara, hang on let me go get one of the books... yeah tarabon... too. so if there was a broken one and then the whole one broke, it goes to show that it has happened b4. maybe there's another. either way, i bet if you give elayne enough time to examine it she could figure out how to make another.

WAIT... the statue was distroyed? are you sure? i don't remember that... i knew the key was FUBAR but the big statue on tremalking is gone too? hmm, i think i need to look into that...

back to the TP... what if there was a way to combine the TP and the OP?
both saidin and saidar together and the true power, that is truely opposites. i bet if that were possible it would be increadibly powerful, maybe rand and others talk morridin into switching sides, help keep order.

i mean what the DO really want's is to distroy order and if there isn't some kind of order the chosen really have no authority... which is really what their true desire is.

that would be a fantastic twist. i like that.

so lanfear transmigrated, did she also get fitted with a cour'souvra, mind trap that contains her soul?

also, if lanfear gets taken out of the picture b4 she and team tap the true power causing the bore.

think about this how much did she really effect? she's really only been free from her prison with the Dark One for a short while. and b4 that yes there were 50-100 years with her as lanfear, making a name for herself

After the creation of the Bore fifty to one hundred years passed before the actual beginning of the War of the Shadow. During the first three years the Shadow made great gains and large parts of the world fell. Much of what had been lost was retaken over the next four years, but after a yearlong stalemate the Shadow began to advance again.

i'm betting it was less than 100 years prolly closer to the 50 to 75 year mark, which, while thats a lot to suddenly reweave because she would never have been there, it really would have been gradual over time. it really is paradoxical...

i suppose this theory really boils down to Mierin Eronaile most not tap the true power, some how she must die!!! (spoken like a very over exaggerated captain kirk) lol

[Belazamon]

yeah remember, at shadar logoth, but there was a broken one in... crap! was it tara, hang on let me go get one of the books... yeah tarabon... so if there was a broken one then the whole one broke, it goes to show that it has happened b4. maybe there's another. either way, i bet if you give elayne enough time to examine it she could figure out how to make another

a) That one was just broken in half, not melted.

b) Even if Elayne copied it, there's nothing for it to link to anymore. It's basically just a remote for the Choedan Kal.

[hippie-joe]

yeah i just found this...

KoD,Ch22 � The female Choedan Kal on Tremalking melts after the cleansing. The Amayar see this as a sign that the Time of Illusions is over and they commit mass suicide.

so yes i don't remember those specifics but i found the reference

[hippie-joe]

a) That one was just broken in half, not melted.

b) Even if Elayne copied it, there's nothing for it to link to anymore. It's basically just a remote for the Choedan Kal.

it says the key was distoyed not that it melted, though the kal melted, per above.

WH,Ch35 - At Shadar Logoth, Rand and Nynaeve use the access keys to activate the Choedan Kal and cleanse saidin. In the process, the female access key is destroyed. Cadsuane takes the male access key.

now it doesn't say how distroyed it is... ie melted or if it just broke in two

[Belazamon]

Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets, as if whoever put it there had been uncertain that it was worthy of display, lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. -tSR ch.11Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a woman. The face was as wisely serene as ever, but the figure was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. - WH ch.35So, yeah.

[hippie-joe]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets, as if whoever put it there had been uncertain that it was worthy of display, lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. -tSR ch.11


Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a woman. The face was as wisely serene as ever, but the figure was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. - WH ch.35

well... i guess it's a little from column A and a little from column B

[Belazamon]

well... i guess it's a little from column A and a little from column B

I... have no idea what you mean by that.

[hippie-joe]

lol

column A being that it melted

column B being that it broke into a couple pieces

[Belazamon]

lol

column A being that it melted

column B being that it broke into a couple pieces

Um, okay.

Column A was the key Rand found in Rhuidean, and column B was the key Nynaeve found in Tanchico. Two different keys, two different things that happened to them. Which, I believe, was what you were asking about...?

[hippie-joe]

Um, okay.

Column A was the key Rand found in Rhuidean, and column B was the key Nynaeve found in Tanchico. Two different keys, two different things that happened to them. Which, I believe, was what you were asking about...?

Cadsuane let the thing that had been a ter'angreal drop to the ground. It could no longer be called a statue of a woman. The face was as wisely serene as ever, but the figure was broken in two and lumpy like bubbled wax where one side had melted, including the arm that had held the crystal sphere now lying in shattered fragments around the ruined thing. - WH ch.35

i was refering to what i had originaly thought about it breaking in two and, what whoever first stated it said, about it melting.

that makes sense right?

well, it makes sense to me. either way it's unusable.

my bad on not being clear:o

[4Alethinos]

Now this is an interesting discussion. Sorry that I have been so absent, but this whole thread is worth noting.

To recap, most, if not all, of the prior discussions had been about attempting to balefire the DO. RJ shot that down bigtime.

This discussion is about the possible impact of balefireing Lanfear/Mierin back to before she got the bright idea of the Bore. The impact of that is massive. All of the people who died as a result of that are what? The balefiring of cities did not occur. So on and so on.

In fact, it would mean that the Age of Legends did not end. There are no Aiel in the Waste. There is no White Tower. The list is endless.

I can imagine that Rand with the aid of a really big link and the Choedan Kal could possibly do it. However, I do not believe that it is the solution. It actually disrupts the cycle of the Ages as defined by the Wheel and the Pattern.

There is also the minor problem of Beidoman and his part in the events at the Colaam Daan. He is not removed and he may have done it on his own without encouragement from Lanfear. This uncertainty makes it even more unlikely to my mind.

I do agree that Lanfear has not been impacting the Pattern and vice versa for the entirety of 3500 years and the impact on her part of the Pattern is not so big. It is the implications of what did not happen in the AoL that is huge.

IMO, the Bore is not a part of the Pattern per se. It is an intrusion in the pattern and consitutes no impact on the the threads of the Pattern any more than sticking a ice pick carefully through a woven piece of cloth. What is done is that the spatial coordinates of the Pattern are distorted at that point and this allowed entrance by the power of the DO to enter the world that was defined by the Wheel and the Pattern. It is a similar concept to that of travelling. You make a hole in the pattern and jump to another set of coordinates also in the Pattern.

It is the warped Pattern coordinates that must be restored. However this will be done, it will not be accomplished by any use of balefire IMO.

"Once more into the breach, my friends." :)

[hippie-joe]

yeah everyone pretty much trampled this theory, i don't know if you read through all the replies from other ppl, as it is extensive, to a degree. pretty much all the points you brought up have been mentioned, and my beautiful theory shot to ribbons. but i do appreciate your input. it did shed more light on it in a different perspective, from a different angle, if i may.:o