Is LTT always the dragon?

[zel]

Will the next era's dragon be the reincarnation of Rand Al'Thor or will it be LTT again? Stands to reason it will be Rand Al'Thor but I'm not 100% sure.

Also, there are 7 (I believe) "spokes" on the WoT. Is Rand always the Dragon in one of those spokes or are the spokes "torn off" and replaced by new spokes after that age passes?

I had some other thoughts, but it's late and I've been wanting to ask this question for a while now. Hopefully when I remember my other questions, I'll post them also.


Thanks. :)

[Nazbaque]

I keep saying I need a reread really badly, but I don't remember it being any where in the books that there has to be a dragon in everyone of the Ages. Anyone ever asked RJ?

The whole point of TG is that DO is defeated and his prison made whole again until they free him in the next AoL so in all the ages between there is no DO to fight and no need for the Dragon so Rand/LTT would be just another HotH.

[Terez]

Click on the link in my sig, then the interview database, then the Rand/Lews Therin/Dragon Soul category, and read. RJ has a few things to say about that. :)

[hippie-joe]

Click on the link in my sig, then the interview database, then the Rand/Lews Therin/Dragon Soul category, and read. RJ has a few things to say about that. :)

so i was curious, the path you pointed down is a lot of reading on many things not related to the question, it's prolly there but burried under numerous impertinent queries to RJ.

zel- yeah it's 7 spokes/ages if you think about it there it a huge amount of time between lews and rand. that happens to be a whole age/spoke. lews was the dragon for the previous cycle of the wheel, ie. full turn, all 7 ages. rand is the dragon for this cycle. the nature of the wheel is that each cycle is slightly different and sometimes in big ways. lol
so that means if you think about it, lews was, at some point, refered to as the dragon reborn. just like it was with rand. and as long as the shadow doesn't win out this cycle,there will be another champion for the light.

so no, no broken spokes, that's the DO's objective afterall

[Terez]

It's not that much reading, joe. C'mon...you read WoT. What's a couple of pages? :)

[Nazbaque]

Now I know that one isn't right. AoL is just one of the seven Ages like Third Age is one, but they are of the same cycle. Every cycle the DO's prison is bored and patched then remade at TG. The Dragon leads the fight against the DO and seals his prison and the Dragon Reborn remakes it, when the seals fail.

[hippie-joe]

It's not that much reading, joe. C'mon...you read WoT. What's a couple of pages? :)

i suppose your right but at 2 in the morning when you trying to get to bed. it's no small task, especially when it's not all related to what you want, ya know?:)

[GonzoTheGreat]

If you use a more or less reasonable search term, then you do not need to read nearly as much. Assuming that your browser has a search function, of course. I'm not quite sure all of them have that. Come to think of it, I've once made one that didn't have it. It wasn't a very useful browser, I admit, but it did what it had to do. Most of the time.

[Weird Harold]

Will the next era's dragon be the reincarnation of Rand Al'Thor or will it be LTT again? Stands to reason it will be Rand Al'Thor but I'm not 100% sure.

Also, there are 7 (I believe) "spokes" on the WoT. Is Rand always the Dragon in one of those spokes or are the spokes "torn off" and replaced by new spokes after that age passes?

First some terminology:

A full cycle of the Wheel of Time's seven Ages is a Turning. The current drama only repeats once every Turning.

Each of the seven "spokes" is an Age. Each Age is distinct and not a repeat of any other Age, but is a restaging of the same Age from the previous Turning.

The Dragon Soul -- LTT in the AOL and Rand Al'Thor in the Current Age -- is the main character in those two Ages, but apparently only a supporting character in other Ages. Notably, RJ said that if a female "Dragon" was required, there is a female Hero that woul dbe tasked by the Wheel for that role.

I think of the Seven Ages as the repertoire of a stage company that does seven plays in endless rotation. There's no particular reason why the Dragon Soul has to play the main role in the second and third plays in the rotation -- the Artur Hawkwing Soul might work as well (except where channeling is required.) In this particular production, the Dragon Soul does have the part, but other Souls are probably suited to star in the other plays.

[Muirenn]

The Dragon Soul, like that of all of the other Heroes seems to be an Archetype. Now, I would need to bust out my Joseph Campbell again to get into all the gritty details, but I'm on lunch break, so I'll just do a sum up. :P

Birgitte indicates from her POVs that she has been reborn many, many, times since the end of the Age of Legends. And it was each time that her soul's particular skill set was needed, the Archer. I would think it is the same for the Dragon Soul, and that particular hero is spun out each time he is needed. I think it is debatable if that soul has been used in the intervening time since the end of the Second Age, when LTT suicided. I'm sure it's possible that a leader was needed at some point when it wasn't yet time for the Dragon Reborn, but was still a role that particular soul was suited for.

So my answer is that it will always be the archtype, not necessarily tied to a particular personality.

[Terez]

It seems most likely to me that Rand hasn't been born since Lews Therin, since the Heroes addressed him as Lews Therin at Falme. It would make sense, since channelers live so much longer than regular folks, in general, that they'd be born less often.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Of course, channeling males wouldn't necessarily live all that much longer than ordinary folks in the Third Age ...

[Terez]

Sure, but that's beside the point.

[Mat is Better]

lol
so that means if you think about it, lews was, at some point, refered to as the dragon reborn. just like it was with rand. and as long as the shadow doesn't win out this cycle,there will be another champion for the light.

So I didn't read the link either, mostly because I don't like to pour through pages of information when someone could just tell me the answer.

Anyway the way that I understand it LTT was called the Dragon in his age which is in the same turning of the wheel as Rand's age. Which is the reason why Rand is called the Dragon Reborn.

Now I have no idea if the Dragon is always the same person but LTT has never been known as the Dragon Reborn by any information that we have. Namely because by the time LTT was born, people didn't even remember the DO and his minions or that the Dragon would be born specifically to fight him. You could argue that LTT at some point did what Rand is doing now, but we don't know that and I frankly believe it is unlikely.

Now assuming that LTT and Rand are the same person this logic still holds up because LTT wasn't the Dragon Reborn during the time he was known as LTT.

[Terez]

So I didn't read the link either, mostly because I don't like to pour through pages of information when someone could just tell me the answer.
No one's going to, though, and it's important information if you want to discuss WoT. ;)

[Mat is Better]

No one's going to, though, and it's important information if you want to discuss WoT. ;)
Ah but see, I can just post incorrect information and then someone will tell me I'm wrong. It's what people do. ;) So that is an indirect way of asking the question if you think about it.

[Muirenn]

It seems most likely to me that Rand hasn't been born since Lews Therin, since the Heroes addressed him as Lews Therin at Falme. It would make sense, since channelers live so much longer than regular folks, in general, that they'd be born less often.

In general, I think you're correct with this assumption. Which is why I said that it could be argued, not that I was certain. However! I don't think we will ever know with any degree of certainty. Birgitte is known, and thinks of herself, as Birgitte, even though she has gone by many names during just the past age. I think it is entirely possible that the Dragon Soul has been reborn during that time.

But my personal view is that particular soul plays the role of a Shiva-like character. He heralds the end of an Age, destroys and transforms. With that specific role in mind, I agree that he is likely to be born only once in an Age.

[Weird Harold]

But my personal view is that particular soul plays the role of a Shiva-like character. He heralds the end of an Age, destroys and transforms. With that specific role in mind, I agree that he is likely to be born only once in an Age.

The world of Time already has a "Shiva" (and Kali)

Shivan the Hunter
One of the Heroes of the Horn. He is brother to Calian the Chooser.

IIRC, Shivan and Calian are the twins born to signal the end of an age, which woul dmake them an almost direct steal from Indian mythology.

[Muirenn]

True! Their birth signals the end of an Age. But we know that RJ divided up aspects of many mythological/legendary/religious figures and split them between multiple characters (on purpose!). He is reverse engineering the mythology of our world. It is easy to see how a man whose life is working toward a transition between Ages could tie in with the twins whose birth signals the end of the Age (Elayne's babies perhaps? making the tie that much stronger and tying into our modern mythology).

I'm a mythology/legends/religions junkie for WoT stuff. :P I like finding all the little easter eggs RJ has left for us. :)

[hippie-joe]

Ah but see, I can just post incorrect information and then someone will tell me I'm wrong. It's what people do. ;) So that is an indirect way of asking the question if you think about it.

how very true... either way you get ripped on, but this way you get the answer too. lol

[hippie-joe]

So I didn't read the link either, mostly because I don't like to pour through pages of information when someone could just tell me the answer.

Anyway the way that I understand it LTT was called the Dragon in his age which is in the same turning of the wheel as Rand's age. Which is the reason why Rand is called the Dragon Reborn.

Now I have no idea if the Dragon is always the same person but LTT has never been known as the Dragon Reborn by any information that we have. Namely because by the time LTT was born, people didn't even remember the DO and his minions or that the Dragon would be born specifically to fight him. You could argue that LTT at some point did what Rand is doing now, but we don't know that and I frankly believe it is unlikely.

Now assuming that LTT and Rand are the same person this logic still holds up because LTT wasn't the Dragon Reborn during the time he was known as LTT.

i suppose you have a point, i guess i always just thought LTT, due to the slowing lived though all that from the previous turning, i haddn't thought about the whole time there when ppl didn't even know of evil and the potential energy the DO was building up in it's prison. of course if the time from LTT to rand is a little less than 3500 years that's a really long time, hmm i don't even know why i thought that now, especially after looking up all those references for my theory.

oh well live and learn that's my motto

[Sodas]

Is LTT always the dragon?

No. When LTT was born, he was not the Dragon. The Dragon is what he is called by the people during the War of Power.

Will the next era's dragon be the reincarnation of Rand Al'Thor or will it be LTT again?

My view :

LTT's personality was passed down because his job of stopping the Dark One from destroying the pattern had not been completed. It is unlikely that Rand will leave the job incomplete. So it is also unlikely that Rand will die in such a unresolved fashion as to need to leave a ghost of his insight and knowledge behind.

Therefore, to answer your question, it's near impossible for Rand to pass down his personality (who knows, Jordan could throw a wretch and make Rand die tragically), but always theoretically possible.

[hippie-joe]

i remember there being a brief mention of a second, i guess, man in rands head other than LTT. any speculation on who that guy is/was/ or will be? i think it said he always remainded in the shadows, or something like that...

[Terez]

We found out in Knife of Dreams that it was Moridin - Rand has been seeing his face briefly for a long time now, usually when he seizes saidin and gets the dizziness/sickness (they're linked).

[hippie-joe]

We found out in Knife of Dreams that it was Moridin - Rand has been seeing his face briefly for a long time now, usually when he seizes saidin and gets the dizziness/sickness (they're linked).

really? i don't remember that part... shit that was only, last year that i read that.

oh wait i think that may have something to do with the life style i lived this time last year lol...

crazy times, crazy stupid times.

i spent a year trying to find that book, i never thought to go to the library. that's where i ended up getting it from. i still can't seem to find it in book stores. i should just buy it from the library. that's not a bad idea, hmm. i wonder if they'd do that straight out. i'm gonna stop tying my thoughts now...

[Terez]

really? i don't remember that part... shit that was only, last year that i read that.
I would post a nice long refresher quote for you, but seeing as how you haven't actually bought the book, I think it would be a copyright violation...