How weaves work?

[greatwolf]

I've been trying to work out a better understanding of how weaves work in the WoT world and came up with a few ideas over the weekend that I hope you guys will be able to build on.

Say we start with shields. How does a channeler weave a shield? First pic I think of is making a flat plate metal shield. The channeler brings it out magically, a flat sheet of metal in the air and presto!

Only it can be of any material plastic, metal, wood or even ice. And he can vary the density as he/she wishes. Or it could be of spirit. That would make it a poor barrier against physical assaults but could be effective against other threats.
Now he could combine say, spirit and air to weave a barrier that would be effective against both tangible and intangible threats. But how well will spirit and air hold together in a weave? Note though, that the effectiveness of the weave would depend largely on the physical properties of the type of weave i.e, air will repel tangible stuff while spirit is used to repel the less tangible types.

Therefore effectiveness of any weave may depend not strength of channeler of the "web" used, but rather on how well the channeler understands the "materials" (by this a mean the weaves :air, water, spirit, etc) being used and how they would be used to achieve a set aim.

For instance a gateway can be manipulated in several different ways : deathgates, travelling unto moving surfaces, intercepting gateways, blocking them etc. The better you understand how it works, the more you can tweak it.
So nyn would find it easy to do things with healing weaves because she has a good understanding of how the body works, what has gone wrong and what needs to be set right and how. But she how well does she know the materials (weaves) that she will use since she was never accepted? Tuon also has a knowledge of herbs and may end up being quite skilled at healing. Same might happen to several wise women.

So you could make a shield of air by making a flat plate of air. But does the channeler actually make (create) it? Or is he just using what is there in some form?

I usually think of the five powers as Gases (air) Liquids (water) Solids (earth) Intangibles (spirit) and Energy (fire). So a shield of air may be a manipulation of gases. It could be energized with fire. Any gas. Type of gas(es) drawn and how will determine what the shield will do. And then you add different types of energy to it. Kinetic energy, chemical energy, whatever.

But where is the air or other materials drawn from? A reservoir perhaps? Drawing it from the air around you could create a vacuum in the immediate area around you and lead to a number of practical problems.

A shield then can become a net if you put holes in it. You could make the holes by making cuts one at a time in a metal plate. Or you could make filament strips of metal and lay them across each other in a simple grill pattern.

so that's it for now. A little rudimentary and speculative, but I think it'll serve since what I want is to build this up and not to take any stand in particular. Of couase not taking a stand means it won't be acceptable on the mainboard right?

[Frenzy]

You could pull on Siuan's lesson to Nynaeve & Egwene on their way to Tar Valon to put more meat on your theory's bones. :D

[Weird Harold]

The simple answer is that all weaves work like Magic.

As for sheilding, there is Nyneave's battle with Moggyin in the Panarch's Museum and/or the lesson's for Windfinders where Talaan and Nyneave demonstrate Sheilding.

[hippie-joe]

But she how well does she know the materials (weaves) that she will use since she was never accepted? Tuon also has a knowledge of herbs and may end up being quite skilled at healing. Same might happen to several wise women.

what do you mean she was never accepted?

are you refering to her block? but then if you know about tuon then you have passed the part where mog BFs nyn's boat and she gets stuck almost drowneding, and erases the block.

on another note nyn does most of that work intuitively, as she had been doing it with out understanding what it was she did for several years pryor. it's gotten to where it's engrained.

as far as the rest...

like WH said it's magic, for lack of a better word. don't think of it like captain planet.

the OP is divided among five parts what each of those parts effects is what gives it it's name.
and as for your theory to be, you can look up the rest, it's more fulfilling that way.

make sure to use book and/or interview quotes.;)

[Weird Harold]

the OP is divided among five parts what each of those parts effects is what gives it it's name.
and as for your theory to be, you can look up the rest, it's more fulfilling that way.

I doubt that RJ delved this deeply into Alchemy and the the four (five) classical elements, but some research into how Alchemists believed that all materials were a mixture of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water (plus Spirit to distinguish living things from non-living things) so the ways that the various flows of Saidin or Saidar are combined to obtain various effects would have more similarity to that mode of "science" than to Einsteinian or Quantum Physics.

[Terez]

what do you mean she was never accepted?
She probably meant that she was never Accepted. But what she really meant was that she was never a novice.

[greatwolf]

I doubt that RJ delved this deeply into Alchemy and the the four (five) classical elements, but some research into how Alchemists believed that all materials were a mixture of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water (plus Spirit to distinguish living things from non-living things) so the ways that the various flows of Saidin or Saidar are combined to obtain various effects would have more similarity to that mode of "science" than to Einsteinian or Quantum Physics.

I don't think its deep at all. Maybe you mean it throws up several things at once but certainly not deep by RJ's standards. Of course, he has developed it over the course of several years plus more time of planning before he started writing the books.

.what do you mean she was never accepted?


My bad. I meant novice. But I must give some people a reason to post;)

make sure to use book and/or interview quotes.

Why? you want a theory and I want a discussion. At least for now. I think a collaborative thingy would work better here. I was trying to 'look' inside RJ's head and picture what he means when he writes all his stuff. That's why I thought more along the lines I thought a physics person would.

.The simple answer is that all weaves work like Magic

RJ's magic has always been different. Like it has a logical feel to it, or do I call it scientific? But what is magic anyway? Magic to the 12th century chap may be science in the 21st century.

.You could pull on Siuan's lesson to Nynaeve & Egwene on their way to Tar Valon to put more meat on your theory's bones

:mad:
Actually I felt it was too long as it is. More 'meat' might just result in indigestion. Some people out there are as lazy as I am.:p

[Weird Harold]

I don't think its deep at all. Maybe you mean it throws up several things at once but certainly not deep by RJ's standards.

I meant delving deeply into Alchemy to find actual "formulations" for various materials -- there was never any real consistency and that level of corelation isn't necessary to thebasic concept of the Four Classical Elements. I'm sure he did research deeper than you or I have had any reason too, but not deepe enough for you to relate any historical data to the way he used the concept in the WOT.

RJ's magic has always been different. Like it has a logical feel to it, or do I call it scientific? But what is magic anyway? Magic to the 12th century chap may be science in the 21st century.


RJ definitely subsribed to Clarke's Law, but any good fantasy world has a logical and consistent system of 'Magic' and RJ's system of 'Magic' is one of the best -- but ultimately, it is still just a system of 'Magic' in an Epic Fantasy series.

[Terez]

My bad. I meant novice. But I must give some people a reason to post;)
*looks as post count*

Is that really necessary?

[greatwolf]

RJ's system of 'Magic' is one of the best -- but ultimately, it is still just a system of 'Magic' in an Epic Fantasy series.

So?

Does that mean we shouldn't work out what RJ means when writes about a weave? I think rather the opposite.

Thinking a little more, i feel that maybe the fifth type of flow -spirit, may actually be the TAR reflection of the other four. It is often said to be the only weave that can be channeled while asleep. From what we know, the consciousness resides in the goi when asleep. But my facts are rather watery at the moment.

[Neilbert]

RJ's magic has always been different. Like it has a logical feel to it, or do I call it scientific? But what is magic anyway? Magic to the 12th century chap may be science in the 21st century.

I think you misunderstand what "science" is and what differentiates it from magic.

Science is science, no matter what you believe it is, and it can be verified and independently confirmed.

[Weird Harold]

So?

Does that mean we shouldn't work out what RJ means when writes about a weave? I think rather the opposite.

It means I think you're looking for details that don't exist in anything close to the detail you're looking for.

[greatwolf]

It means I think you're looking for details that don't exist in anything close to the detail you're looking for.

Likely you're right. But we really won't know till we try just how far we can go. RJ described some of the learning stages for Egwene, Avi Rand and Moiraine. Nynaeve also to an extent. Much of what we'll be doing may be speculative, but a clearer picture would be its own reward, I think.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It is often said to be the only weave that can be channeled while asleep.1. AS do not know everything.

2. It may be true in regard to what can be channeled in the 'real world'. But it is definitely not true in regard to what can be channeled in TAR, while you are there. A good example of this is provided by Nynaeve, who distracts Rahvin by setting the corridor in which he is on fire, so that Rand can strike with a really deadly attack. Another example is Egwene destroying the lock on her cell door with Earth, when they're caught in the Stone in TDR. That last case shows the limitations too: the real lock is still tight, so that they cannot open the door and have to wait for Mat.

[greatwolf]

I think you misunderstand what "science" is and what differentiates it from magic.

Science is science, no matter what you believe it is, and it can be verified and independently confirmed.

:D
If you intended to make me laugh till my ribs hurt, you're on the right track.

Good job you didn't attempt to define magic. The idea of flight was once considered "magic" but is now both common and "verifible".

But if you look at a lot of the weaves RJ describes, the follow normal physical laws quite often. Take blossom of fire. It obeys most normal laws as to cause and consequence. You make one too close to where you are and you become a victim of 'friendly fire'.

Ditto for the working of lightning and weather. RJ it seems simply followed the normal laws of the universe. When it rains, the raindrops fall down not up irrespective of what caused the rain, OP or not. To make rain and lightning, we usually see channelers gather clouds first (not always though) so they appear to working with nature and natural scientific principles.

[Neilbert]

Again, you are confusing where magic stops and science begins.

Magic creates the fire, then science describes its affects. Why would you ever expect something else?

Good job you didn't attempt to define magic. The idea of flight was once considered "magic" but is now both common and "verifible".

Actually flight has pretty much always been common and verifiable... at least as long as the human race has been around unless you think birds fly by magic?

Leonardo da'Vinchi studied bird wings in order to find a way that people might fly long before the Wright brothers came along.

But if you look at a lot of the weaves RJ describes, the follow normal physical laws quite often. Take blossom of fire. It obeys most normal laws as to cause and consequence. You make one too close to where you are and you become a victim of 'friendly fire'.

Yes. Why would you expect anything different? The fire created by channeling isn't some sort of eldrich flame with magical properties, it's just heat.

Ditto for the working of lightning and weather. RJ it seems simply followed the normal laws of the universe. When it rains, the raindrops fall down not up irrespective of what caused the rain, OP or not.

Because the magic is only being used to create a droplet of moisture in the air that is heavy enough that it doesn't float. Again, why would you expect anything else? If they wanted the rain to fall sideways they would have to add a reason for it to happen. They aren't creating magic water with magic properties.

Now would you care to explain how cuellindar obeys natural laws?

[greatwolf]

. It may be true in regard to what can be channeled in the 'real world'. But it is definitely not true in regard to what can be channeled in TAR, while you are there. .

What I'm thinking is what if the threads that are seen in the RW are merely reflections of the other four threads from TAR. If reflections, they may appear quite blurry in the RW or waking world and so appear to look like same "blurred" weave every time which channelers have come to know as the spirit weave.

Why blurred? well for one, it is a reflection. It is active in TAR but not in the RW. Most pure spirit weaves we've seen (cant quote right now) don't have a tangible physical effect.
At the same time as you said, you can use fire air and so on in TAR. But if you are not fully there, or are using a terangreal that makes you appear not fully there, the weaves appear misty (iirc) and lack strength or potency.
The reverse may be the case with spirit weaves. They would be weak and blurry in RW but only effective in TAR.

I'll have to sift through the books and see how well the theory holds up though. I suspect it won't but it might be a good starting point for other things.

[greatwolf]

Because the magic is only being used to create a droplet of moisture in the air that is heavy enough that it doesn't float. Again, why would you expect anything else? If they wanted the rain to fall sideways they would have to add a reason for it to happen. They aren't creating magic water with magic properties.

Now would you care to explain how cuellindar obeys natural laws?

Already?
Neilbert, I need sleep right now, I'll catch up tomorrow ASAP.
But this bit of your post, shows we are reading these books rather differently. I don't think the channelers create things. I believe they make use of what is already there. Else everytime they used water, air or earth, they'd be increasing the mass of the planet itself among other consequences.
The only thing that's necesarry is to understand how they do what they do. The process. And since it is a process, then it should be possible for anyone to duplicate it given the right circumstances and conditions.
As for cuendillar, a black hole is a natural entity obeying and consistent with the laws of the universe. No matter how awesome it or its effects are.

[Neilbert]

I don't think the channelers create things. I believe they make use of what is already there. Else everytime they used water, air or earth, they'd be increasing the mass of the planet itself among other consequences.

See, my mistake is that I always assume you have actually read the series, and remember the relevant bits. Sure, I phrased that poorly, but just as surely it should have been really easy for you to figure out what I meant.

We know how rain is created (or assembled really), we see Rand do it.

Now, if you really want a mind***** think about how balefire works. If matter can be destroyed, then matter must be able to be created, otherwise there would be nothing.

But again, it begs the question. If you can't create water, why can you still create heat? The laws of thermodynamics aren't about conservation of matter they are about conservation of energy. In WOT you have a source of free energy.

If one can create free energy (channeling fire) then one can reasonably create matter somehow.

As for cuendillar, a black hole is a natural entity obeying and consistent with the laws of the universe. No matter how awesome it or its effects are.

Wow. What do cuellendar and black holes have to do with each other? Indestructible is not consistent with the laws of any universe that I am familiar with.

[hippie-joe]

we don't really have a clear picture of how it works.

but maybe it's like manipulating waves, think about it. everything from matter as solid as titanium, to fluid, to air, to fire to emotions, it's all vibrations, vibrations being waves, ofcourse.

these waves just differ in lengths.

the OP is what the creator used to make the pattern, the world, and what is used to keep it in motion.

so the ability to channel is the ability to see and manipulate these waves of, lets say, creation in its raw form. i don't say that they are creating new, matter, just causing what is available to move and/or relocate, depending on what is called for buy the specific weave...

this would effectively turn the magic of WoT into science. ofcourse this doesn't explain how or why channelers have the ability to do what they can.


But again, it begs the question. If you can't create water, why can you still create heat?

and if you think about it this makes sense for our world as well, on a molecular level that is.

edit:so what do y'all think? is it possible, plausible, or completely off the wall.

if this idea is correct it would onle be a matter of speeding the waves infront of you or where ever you want, to make the waves the same speed that is required for combustion. as far as BF it and it's rules are new and it's a fantasy after all.

and the same can be said for cuellendar, which is made of the OP, the rules that revolve around it are differend, using the OP on it in a round about way renews it's strength, but if it goes for too long without someone channeling any of the OP into or at it, it becomes weak and fragile. the question, is if it is weak (like is mentioned more than once through out the series) will channeling the OP at it or into it strengthen it? we have yet to learn that from reading....

end edit...

another thing to think about, RJ was some kind of nuclear scientist, this kind of thing would be common knowledge for him, as he probably worked with things of this nature daily while engaged in that line of work. that being said... writers often do better when writing about things they know and understand.

what does that say about stephen king? lol idk

[Weird Harold]

But if you look at a lot of the weaves RJ describes, the follow normal physical laws quite often. Take blossom of fire. It obeys most normal laws as to cause and consequence. You make one too close to where you are and you become a victim of 'friendly fire'.

Ditto for the working of lightning and weather. RJ it seems simply followed the normal laws of the universe.

In almost every epic fantasy's system of Magic, it is easier to work w ith nature than against nature -- it is easier to make it rain in humid conditions than in arid conditions, easier to call lightening when a thunderstorm is in the vicinity, etc. RJ followed that convention with a bit better understanding of phsysics than most fantasy author's possess.

Like Neil says, you're confusing the line between the Magic that sets up the conditions and the natural/scientific consequences of setting up those conditions.

There is a hint that Healers could use the OP to directly regenerate tissue without using the patient's 'reserves' -- eg no thaving to feed up a patient to provide the elements to build tissue mass -- which would require direct energy to matter conversion.

A lot of R/W theoretical physics remains theoretical because of a lack of energy -- the WOT solves that lack of energy with "Magic" but the 'Magic' itself doesn't follow the laws of Physics.

For example, The Windfinders work with the physics that drive weather systems, steering and enhancing weather systems to the advantage of their ships, but they do by channeling energy that r/w technology can't match -- The energy required to steer a weather system should turn a channeler into a cinder.

But other applications of the OP don't follow the rules of physics at all -- a bridge of air, for example; creating the density or velocity of air to support physical objects should cause a vacuum and an inrush of air to fill the void. There is no principle of physics or natural law that I know of that can explain a bridge of air or "ropes of air" to bind someone that would suck the air from every bystander's lungs in the process.

[hippie-joe]

i'm not so sure that it would cause a vacuum... granted i'm no expert in the field. if you hold to the idea i stated earlier, then all that would need to be done is shorten and slow the wave of the desired area to that of what would be solid. slower vibrations are more dense, bundle them to gether make them more, crowded, so to speak and it would effectively, theoretically become dense enough to hold weight. it would still be invisable because it's still just air, but more dense air. it would be like how you float better in thicker liquid such as syrup, as apposed to water...

there was a mythbusters where they swam in syrup, not quite the same, but similar. but that's beside the point...

doing this wouldn't cause a vacuum would it? that doesn't seem to fit in...

it still boils down to the magic that allows certain ppl to do suce a feat.:confused:

[Weird Harold]

i'm not so sure that it would cause a vacuum... granted i'm no expert in the field. if you hold to the idea i stated earlier, then all that would need to be done is shorten and slow the wave of the desired area to that of what would be solid. slower vibrations are more dense,...

Actually, Slower vibrations are less dense and less energetic than higher frequency vibrations.

However, you're correct that the iar would have to be made more dense, but when you make air more dense, it takes up less room and the extra space it previously occupied becomes 'empty' and outside air moves in to replace it -- the net effect is a pressure gradient and air movement aka 'wind.' If something blocks outside air from equalizing th epressure, then you get a vaccum that makes breathing difficult for bystanders.

You can also add the quirk that women can build longer bridges of Air than Men and it has nothing to do with strength in the OP -- at least according to Rand's thoughts.

There is no obvious extension of R/W science that would explain that quirk except for the FM principle -- "it's just F-ing Magic."

Where weaves work with Nature/Physics, the end result is realtively easy to understand, but where they do something that works against nature/physics or is completely contrary to nature/physics, it is much more difficult to speculate productively.

[hippie-joe]

Actually, Slower vibrations are less dense and less energetic than higher frequency vibrations.

However, you're correct that the iar would have to be made more dense, but when you make air more dense, it takes up less room and the extra space it previously occupied becomes 'empty' and outside air moves in to replace it -- the net effect is a pressure gradient and air movement aka 'wind.' If something blocks outside air from equalizing th epressure, then you get a vaccum that makes breathing difficult for bystanders.

You can also add the quirk that women can build longer bridges of Air than Men and it has nothing to do with strength in the OP -- at least according to Rand's thoughts.

There is no obvious extension of R/W science that would explain that quirk except for the FM principle -- "it's just F-ing Magic."

Where weaves work with Nature/Physics, the end result is realtively easy to understand, but where they do something that works against nature/physics or is completely contrary to nature/physics, it is much more difficult to speculate productively.


your right it is just magic, there is no way to really do these things in r/w, and i see now how a vacuum/wind (rush of air) could be created. couldn't be too incredibly strong though.

the only thing i think i disagree with is that slower vibrations are less dense, keep in mind i always reserve the right to be wrong, but isn't light one of the fastest forms of vibration? as the wave gets faster it goes into UV then like X-ray, then gamma and so on (i believe x-ray is b4 gamma).

light vibrates faster than matter doesn't it?

i was just looking on wikipedia, red has the lowest frequency, as the frequency continues getting lower you get into sound, then on to solids once that frequency is low enough.

so i may have used the wrong terms, i should have gone with frequency instead of speed and density. though when i said density i mean bring the changed frequencies in close together so that they are crowded, for lack of a better term.


i'm pretty sure i got this right... as far as theActually, Slower vibrations are less dense and less energetic than higher frequency vibrations.
goes

now technically a single wave of high frequency is more dense, but if you slow down the frequency you stretch it out, that makes it to where you can bundle, STS, more of that same frequency in tighter formation, thus causing that to be able to sustain weight. that is if it's bundled in large enough quantities. which is where the magic we both speak of comes in

eitherway, if i'm wrong you understood the idea i was getting at, it would just be a matter of reversing that small detail.

this was never really my strong subject in school, i was more of an artist

[Weird Harold]

the only thing i think i disagree with is that slower vibrations are less dense, keep in mind i always reserve the right to be wrong, but isn't light one of the fastest forms of vibration? as the wave gets faster it goes into UV then like X-ray, then gamma and so on (i believe x-ray is b4 gamma).

light vibrates faster than matter doesn't it?

Higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths -- more waves in the same distance (or arriving at shorter intervals) is a "denser" wave. Light at any frequency travels at C (186,000 Mi/Sec) in a vacuum and nothing physical can travel that fast or faster. The wavelength doesn't change the speed ; ELF signals travel the same speed as Gamma-ray Lasers but they're not dense enough to shoot down spaceships. (ELF==Extremely Low Frequency; a Navy communications system for communicating with submarines.)

But Matter doesn't "vibrate" or have a wavelength -- Atlhough Photons do ehibit characteristics of a wave and of a particle, they don't exhibit them at the same time.

In a fantasy world, I suppose that matter could be a frequency so high that the waves overlap and become solid -- but only in a fantasy world and I don't think the WOT is one where it works that way. :D

[hippie-joe]

Higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths -- more waves in the same distance (or arriving at shorter intervals) is a "denser" wave.

yeah i said that at the end. this is what i said:
now technically a single wave of high frequency is more dense, but if you slow down the frequency you stretch it out, that makes it to where you can bundle, STS, more of that same frequency in tighter formation, thus causing that to be able to sustain weight. that is if it's bundled in large enough quantities.

solid objects vibrate at an atomic level. the atoms vibrate, that vibration and the molecules that comprise it are what determine what that material is and how dense it is.


http://www.universeofpower.com/][/url]

“The physical world, the world of objects and matter, is made up of nothing but information contained in energy vibrating at different frequencies. The reason we don’t see the world as a huge web of energy is that it is vibrating far too fast. Our senses, because they function so slowly, are able to register only chunks of this energy and activity, and these clusters of information become `the chair’, `my body,’ `water,’ and every other physical object in the visible universe.” ~ Deepak Chopra

Vibrating Strings

Recent theories of physics have proposed that the “thing” or element at the center of all matter is a vibrating “string”. The nature of each string’s vibration determines what kind of particle it is. Each item in the world then is composed of a particular constellation of particles, vibrating in some kind of group harmony.

At this fundamental level, then, we are vibration. The amazing thing is that our senses and perceptions are designed and evolved in a way that lets us interact with each other and with the universe in a manner that gives us the experience of the material world. It’s a trick of perception, this life as we know it. It’s like an optical illusion that we can't not see.

But what does this mean for the process of creating or altering our reality? So what if we are a mass of vibrating submicroscopic strings?


these aren't new ideas.

the idea is that if a vibration is raised high enough it transends from matter to light.

these are the vibrations i speak of...

go watch what the bleep do we know it does a much better job of discribing the vibrations of atoms which in turn mack up, lets say a rock, or a tree, or you or me.

there are other ideas that expand on this. we start getting into quantum physics...

sorry if earlier in this thread i didn't express my idea in the proper jargon and i suppose context. i'm no expert, i only dabble in these ideas

[hippie-joe]

here is more...

The vibration of atoms and thereby of matter could not be measured and quantified in terms of precise numerical value.
However, reference could be made to enable its conceptualization.
Atoms make up molecules that make up matter. Fundamentally, matter is anything that occupies space and has weight. The invisible air is matter.

There is no part of humans that is not matter therefore humans vibrate. The solar system including earth is matter, and likewise vibrates. It is that vibration that brings birth and death.


that describes what i was saying originaly in my main idea

[hippie-joe]

;) and again more....


Science Atoms and Vibrations
Atom vibrates, so says Science. The vibration of atoms is already a proven fact even from the day ancient philosophy flourished.
Without the help of modern technology available to present scientists those pioneering men used logic and deductive reasoning to prove that atoms vibrate.

Atoms make up molecules that make up matter. To enable a non-scientist conceptualize the size of an atom, the smallest object visible to the unaided human eye is made up of millions of atoms. Therefore, for the man on the street, movement of such size could also not be appreciated outside of a modern laboratory.

Suffice to say that the speed of the vibration is thousands of miles per hour. And the vibration is constant, i.e. speed and distance.

It is similar to a bouncing spring but unlike a spring that needs external force atom perpetually bounces on its own energy. Vibration of atoms, and thereby of matters, is unknown to human senses.

Air and gases that eyes could not see but is felt by the skin, ice that is water in its solid form and a piece of hardest solid rock that could break your skull are all subject to this incessant vibration.

When you die, while maggots feast on you, or if have become dust should you choose burning at no stage of your existence do you ever cease to vibrate.


now this is not to say you were not correct about a few things. namely my confusion of wave lengths and all. that and my difficulty in describing what i meant, but you can't really say that matter isn't made of vibrations now

[Weird Harold]

these aren't new ideas...
From Universe of Power dot com (http://www.universeofpower.com/)
(a partial list of new articles:)
# Your Life in your Dreams
# "A Celebration of Love"
# The Law of Attraction and the Science of Getting Rich
# magnatism
# Jupiter & Saturn - On Wealth vs Finance
# Jupiter in the 2nd House
# True Success
# The Astrological Now - Air Signs & Full Moon Pisces
...

That site might offer more insight into the WOT than a pure science site, but I'm not sure that I'd rely on them for accurate explanations of String Theory. :D A theory which, FWIW, is more recent than the cosmology of the WOT.

There are many elements of the WOT that are drawn from or at least derived from, Hippy/New Age philosphies, but I don't count those elements as "scientific." Some of these "Hippy Vibes" parallel string theory is some respects but as noted, String Theory came later than the desgin of the WOT.

[Neilbert]

Question: Regarding the One Power, in a universal sense, like your physics background, is it more of a force like gravity would be, weak electromagnetic and stronger electromagnetic, or is it something more of on a quantum level? Is it on a quantum level in your universe or is it a macro power?
Jordan: I think you are going to have to think of it as being on a quantum level.

I'm not sure what this contributes to the discussion, but hopefully it provides some more fodder for this incredibly nerdy physics shit.

[hippie-joe]

That site might offer more insight into the WOT than a pure science site, but I'm not sure that I'd rely on them for accurate explanations of String Theory. A theory which, FWIW, is more recent than the cosmology of the WOT.

There are many elements of the WOT that are drawn from or at least derived from, Hippy/New Age philosphies, but I don't count those elements as "scientific." Some of these "Hippy Vibes" parallel string theory is some respects but as noted, String Theory came later than the desgin of the WOT.

you know i didn't really look at that site too deeply, i was trying to find what i really wanted, which i fould a few minutes later and posted. i wanted a more scientific site that is more credible, i figured that would be more nessasary than the new age/hippie ideaology, to convince you. the point i was trying to make was that on some level matter does vibrate, and that idea has been around a lot longer than the string theory. the hippies from the 60's and 70's came up with that, well they may not have come up with it but there was, according to my old hippie friends, a lot of conversation about that train of thought.

I'm not sure what this contributes to the discussion, but hopefully it provides some more fodder for this incredibly nerdy physics shit.

LOL, i'm far from a nerd, though i see where you get that. i'm a hippie, as my name suggests;)

you should really watch what the bleep do we know, also check out the secret, also books on the matter, well kinda, The Celestine Prophecy these are where i came across these concepts, mixed in with a few ideas i found in a yachi way of knowledge of course this is mostly metaphysics, but that kinda ties into quantum physics as well

as far as string theory goes i think it's been critisized by just about everyone in the field of quantum physics.

i personaly don't like it either, something about it just seems, a touch, off.
i do believe in the hippie idea of vibrations though.

that is a great quote you added Neilbert, i feel it adds fuel to my idea.:D i doubt it will ever truely be explained, especially to the liking of the most critical WoT fan but i like that explaination, it suits me well.

channelers manipulate light and heat waves and matter vibrations... and maybe EM waves (electricity falls under this catagory doesn't it). they would need to be able to manipulate electricity for lightening. if this were the case there would not really be any adding of matter, just changing it from one form to another.

the only time there would really be any matter being distroyed would be in the case of BF, AISI

[Terez]

One has to wonder why the forum's two physics experts (we have an astronomer and a physical chemist who teaches quantum) haven't posted in this thread at all...

[Neilbert]

My guess is the thread title. It kept me from wandering in here for a while.

[Weird Harold]

...the point i was trying to make was that on some level matter does vibrate, and that idea has been around a lot longer than the string theory. the hippies from the 60's and 70's came up with that, well they may not have come up with it but there was, according to my old hippie friends, a lot of conversation about that train of thought.

According to my "old hippy firends" -- meaning those high-school and college kids I hung around with before I enlisted in the USAF -- the vibrations the Hippies and New Agers were talking about in the 60's were "Psychic Vibrations," not physical vibrations; an entirely different kind of vibrations than EM radiation or Sound.

[hippie-joe]

According to my "old hippy firends" -- meaning those high-school and college kids I hung around with before I enlisted in the USAF -- the vibrations the Hippies and New Agers were talking about in the 60's were "Psychic Vibrations," not physical vibrations; an entirely different kind of vibrations than EM radiation or Sound.

yes that is true too :D,

the idea that was conveyed to me was that everything is vibrations, be it sound, electricity, light, thought, emotions, and even matter. the idea they were laying upon me was the idea that our bodies are vibrations, a very complex set up of them. they went into the idea that jesus said we could do anything he could do, and that he raised his vibration. he achieved ascension, transending the matter of his body and becoming light.

they said read the celestine prophecy. it talks about the idea even more, and it does.

this is what the old hippies i tripped with at the rainbow gathering told me about, b4 that i had no real concept of this idea. it was a fascinating idea and a crazy trip, and that week was a lot of fun.

[Weird Harold]

this is what the old hippies i tripped with at the rainbow gathering told me about, b4 that i had no real concept of this idea. it was a fascinating idea and a crazy trip, and that week was a lot of fun.

The idea has eveolved somewhat from what I was exposed to at the very beginnings of the Hippy movement. I suspect that it has evolved in several different directions, too; String theory probably does have some roots in the "good vibrations" of the sixties. :D

[hippie-joe]

The idea has eveolved somewhat from what I was exposed to at the very beginnings of the Hippy movement. I suspect that it has evolved in several different directions, too; String theory probably does have some roots in the "good vibrations" of the sixties. :D

yeah that would make complete sense. there are a lot of ppl who are, closet hippies, in prestigious positions at universities, some being in the physics department, among other places. evolution is another big idea mixed in with this very concept...


it's the counter culture man...:)

[Weird Harold]

it's the counter culture man...:)

Not any more. :D Baby Boomers and closet Hippies rule the world, Man. :D

[hippie-joe]

lol... give it time and i will hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!:D

you know it's kinda hard to make a laugh sound maniacal in txt format:mad:

[Terez]

I read the Celestine Prophecy in high school. It was a bunch of bunk...

Oh, and to make a laugh maniacal in text, go like this:

MWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[hippie-joe]

I read the Celestine Prophecy in high school. It was a bunch of bunk...

Oh, and to make a laugh maniacal in text, go like this:

MWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

i have heard other ppl say that, and they read it in highschool too.

i wonder if there is some strange correlation in that. i think it may have had something to do with the fact that they made you read it, or did you just chose to read it?

i felt it made things click, lots of good ideas, of course then i read the second book and it was a little out there, and the third was even more so...

it took a couple years for the second and third to sink in and they didn't really till i read Many Lives, Many Masters. that really made sense and it gave me a different perspective on the same view of what the 10th Insight and the Secret of Shambala, tried to shed light on.

[Terez]

No one made me read it - my brother recommended it to me cause him and a bunch of friends thought it was great. I thought it was great when I read it too. We grew out of it though. :)

[hippie-joe]

maybe it's time for a brush up...
it all just makes so much sense
and ties into the whole idea that we can do anything if we truely have faith;)