Question about transmigration and OP strength

[Yellowbeard]

Yes I'm posting lots of threads. I'm bored and my mind is churning over WoT and I can't stop it.

So...I've never seen this discussed before...but admittedly it still might have been.

What happens to a channeler's strength in the OP when transmigrated? Is the person transmigrated w/ their prior attained strength intact, or do they have to rebuild their strength up to their top potential again like what a newby channeler has to do when they first start out channeling?

I'm guessing they don't have to rebuild up to their potential again because I think the 'Gar's would have mentioned in the scene where they "wake up" from tranmigration if they didn't have the same level of strength as before they died.

[Sarevok]

Well, they keep at least some of their strength, or Halima wouldn't be able to channel saidin in a female body.

[greatwolf]

I don't think the forsaken would have been so curious about cyndane/lanfear if a reduction in ability was not unusual after transmigration especially arangar who had been migrated himself/herself.

[Weird Harold]

What happens to a channeler's strength in the OP when transmigrated? Is the person transmigrated w/ their prior attained strength intact, or do they have to rebuild their strength up to their top potential again like what a newby channeler has to do when they first start out channeling?

As Greatwolf noted, there wouldn't be so much interest in Cyndane's strength if it was "normal" for Transmigrated Chosen to lose strength.

But the arguments over Cyndane also prove that we don't know enough to explain her power loss or even be absolutely positive she was transmigrated.

RJ said Transmigration was dependent on a "suitable body" being available -- so, would Morgase, with her limited Stregth, be a suitable Body for someone like Geandal, or would the body limit Greandal's Strength and thus be "unsuitable?"

[greatwolf]

. RJ said Transmigration was dependent on a "suitable body" being available -- so, would Morgase, with her limited Stregth, be a suitable Body for someone like Geandal, or would the body limit Greandal's Strength and thus be "unsuitable?"

Are we certain that the body affects strength? Or just ability to channel? Cos that wou;ld affect Rand/LT. Would the Dragon still be strongest in any age he was born?

[Weird Harold]

Are we certain that the body affects strength? Or just ability to channel? Cos that would affect Rand/LT. Would the Dragon still be strongest in any age he was born?

Rand is the result of a three-thousand-year breeding program by the Pattern -- his parents would never have met without the interference of the Pattern via Gitara Moroso. I'm pretty sure he has a "suitable body" for the Dragon Soul. :D

However, the special case of Rand aside, I don't know that I would say were "certain" the body affects Strength -- It depends on whether you believe Nyneave and Flin Heal the Body or the Soul to restore the abilty to Channel -- If they Heal the Body, then the Body limits Strength.

[Yellowbeard]

I don't think the forsaken would have been so curious about cyndane/lanfear if a reduction in ability was not unusual after transmigration especially arangar who had been migrated himself/herself.

when AS find sparkers, they can sense the strength potential in them. same w/ any channelers, they can sense each other's potential strength unless someone's masking.

nothing says the surviving forsaken couldn't sense the strength potential in any transmigrated forsaken and realize their true strength was unchanged, and still have said transmigrated forsaken need to practice some to get back up to full speed.

i think what they found remarkable about cyndane was that she had lost some of her total strength potential. even she might have had to practice some to get to her transmigrated potential, if she was transmigrated.

As Greatwolf noted, there wouldn't be so much interest in Cyndane's strength if it was "normal" for Transmigrated Chosen to lose strength.

current strength, or the strength potential that they sense in each other as well?

But the arguments over Cyndane also prove that we don't know enough to explain her power loss or even be absolutely positive she was transmigrated.

and my question isn't about whether actual current strength loss after being transmigrated is permanent (if it happens at all). just does a transmigrated person have to build back up to their top potential again after dying and being brought back? or do they come back at top potential to start with?

RJ said Transmigration was dependent on a "suitable body" being available -- so, would Morgase, with her limited Stregth, be a suitable Body for someone like Geandal, or would the body limit Greandal's Strength and thus be "unsuitable?"

umm...okay. but meaningless w/ regards to the original question. it's obvious that suitable bodies were found for all our transmigrated characters...otherwise they wouldn't be transmigrated characters.

Are we certain that the body affects strength? Or just ability to channel? Cos that wou;ld affect Rand/LT. Would the Dragon still be strongest in any age he was born?

the pattern is going to force the dragon in any age he is born to have the abilities he needs to complete his tasks.

Rand is the result of a three-thousand-year breeding program by the Pattern -- his parents would never have met without the interference of the Pattern via Gitara Moroso. I'm pretty sure he has a "suitable body" for the Dragon Soul.

it wasn't a 3000 year program. it was the pattern finding a man and a woman w/ suitable genetics to produce rand when the time came for the DR to be needed again. if janduin and tigraine hadn't had the proper genetics, the pattern would have found different parents and forced them together to produce rand.

[Neilbert]

or do they come back at top potential to start with?

Neither Osan'gar, Aran'gar, or Morridin mention any difficulties, so I'm going to say that assuming the body is suitable they come out of the box ready to go.

But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old.

These are the only requirements that RJ has mentioned (and they seem pretty obvious really), so it's unclear if the body itself needs to be a channeler. Considering Aran'gar that seems unlikely.

[Enigma]

Not to mention that if being suitable meant being forsaken level strenght who likely would it be that any forsaken could get a new body?

While there are a few non forsaken chanelers in that strenght bracket they are still very small. Nynaeve, the former Seanchan damane, the granny novice with the rebel AS and the trainee Windfinder who wants to be a notice are the only ones who come to mind.

From Denandred's pov most of the people who the Shadow use in its works ie making fade's swords come from raids in the borderlands. What are the chances that those raids which have been reduced could find a body who can channel at forsaken strenght for Moridin, Cyndale and the two gars?

The relationship between the soul and the body when it came to channeling always seemed a bit vague to me but I figured that the soul is the template for strenght and tallents/abilities with the genetic part being the doorway for the soul into the world i.e. No door/gene = cannot sense the sourse or touch it even if the soul has the ability.

[Weird Harold]

just does a transmigrated person have to build back up to their top potential again after dying and being brought back? or do they come back at top potential to start with?

It would seem that they do come back at full potential.

it wasn't a 3000 year program. it was the pattern finding a man and a woman w/ suitable genetics to produce rand when the time came for the DR to be needed again. if janduin and tigraine hadn't had the proper genetics, the pattern would have found different parents and forced them together to produce rand.

Just how did the Pattern 'know' it would need a Maiden of the Spear born of the Royal House of Andor in time for the Karethean Cycle and Aeil Prophecy to agree on who would be chosen as TDR's parents and where Tigraine/Shaile would give birth. Both Prophecies date nearly as far back as the Breaking.


Aiel prophecy says he was born of Far Dareis Mai. "Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours."

Old blood = Andoran/Cairheinen, Ancient Blood = Manetheran?


Since Tigraine didn't have a sister, who would have been her understudy for the part of Rand's mother? There are no other females of her generation in the House of Mantear or Morgase wouldn't have won the Throne.

Janduin's relevance to the Aeil Prophecy or the KC isn't as clear, I don't know of any specific mention in either that identifies TDR's father, but we only have very skimpy fragments of either.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I would say that Janduin provided the "blood of our blood" bit from the Aiel prophecy.

Come to think of it, being an Aiel, Rand is not only the Dragon, but also a Child of the Dragon, so he is his own child. Seems sufficiently incestuous to satisfy the divinity requirements of most religions.

[greatwolf]

I would say that Janduin provided the "blood of our blood" bit from the Aiel prophecy.

He also brought the aiel to DM and "dragged" his wife along to allow her birth on dragonmount. He needed to have the right qualites for all that or the pattern would have rejected him.

But if I may digress just a little, why is it that Tam finds it difficult to accept that Rand is the DR? He knows the prophecies and he knows where he found the babe, in fact I thought he would have guessed from winternight that the trollocs where after Rand specifically.

[Yellowbeard]

I think the causality is being mixed up. The Pattern doesn't go "oh...I need to do such and such because that guy prophesized it was going to happen." The Pattern knows ahead of time and the prophets are somehow tied into things such that they can see it as well.

[GonzoTheGreat]

But if I may digress just a little, why is it that Tam finds it difficult to accept that Rand is the DR? He knows the prophecies and he knows where he found the babe, in fact I thought he would have guessed from winternight that the trollocs where after Rand specifically.Knowing the prophecies can come in various gradations. I would guess that both Thom and Moiraine would be a a lot more aware of all the subtleties in them than Tam was or is.
And then there's the issue of having those prophecies actually happen to you. Look at how many people were surprised by things like Candid Camera, even though they knew that the chance of appearing on that program was enormously larger than the chance of adopting the actual DR could be.

[Weird Harold]

I think the causality is being mixed up. The Pattern doesn't go "oh...I need to do such and such because that guy prophesized it was going to happen." The Pattern knows ahead of time and the prophets are somehow tied into things such that they can see it as well.

That's one of the paradoxes of circular time -- the Pattern "knows" how things will play out because it "knows" how things did play out.

So did it happen because the pattern knew is was going to or did the patternknow itwas going to because it already had?


However that paradox works out, each and everyone of Rand's ancestors had to be spun out and maneuvered into the predestined encounters to produce the next generation of his ancestors.

Free Will and the forces of the Shadow can disrupt the pre-planned flow if it isn't monitored and periodically adjusted. The Pattern doesn't have Belgarath and Polgara to shepherd the 'breeding program,' so it isn't as obvious, but Rand was carefully bred just as surely as Belgarion was carefully bred by predestined matings.

[Tree Brother]

Not that it means anything, but the there have been a few discussions among the AS regarding "culling out the ability" from the general population.

I think in New Spring, it was noted that not only are there fewer born with the spark, but that the strength of those found is decreasing. This would imply that strength is affected by the body, at least to some extent.

[Weird Harold]

Not that it means anything, but the there have been a few discussions among the AS regarding "culling out the ability" from the general population.

IIRC, the Yellow Ajah offended the rest by suggesting that culling the male channelers was removing channeling ability from the population. I know that idea is mentioned in the BWB section on Channeling, but I can't remember if or where it is mentioned int he series.

I think in New Spring, it was noted that not only are there fewer born with the spark, but that the strength of those found is decreasing. This would imply that strength is affected by the body, at least to some extent.

It's noted a couple of times in the main series that the Novice Quarters are nearly empty.

I think that Egwene's opening of the Novice Book to any woman of any age has disproven the Aes Sedai's culling theory. The problem the White Tower was having in filling their Novice Quarters had more to do with their "recruiting" policies -- or lack therof -- than with biology or genetics.

However, the culling theory would actually tend to disprove a physical connection if it were true and if Egwene's recruits are a sudden surge in channeler numbers spun out by the Pattern in time to participate in T'G without a large genetic pool to choose from.

[WinespringBrother]

The Pattern induced Verin and Alanna's bountyful recruiting trip to the Two Rivers indirectly via Rand and Moiraine. Possibly the Pattern produced the large crop of channelers via the 'Old Blood' of Queen Eldrene's descendants.

[Neilbert]

For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the “present day” sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.

The pattern might be working to correct things, but the "cull the ability" theory isn't theory, it's fact.

[Weird Harold]

The pattern might be working to correct things, but the "cull the ability" theory isn't theory, it's fact.

That quote does inspire a follow-up question -- "how does Aes Sedai policy affect other lands?"

The general, worldwide Pogrom against male channelers who actually learn to channel doesn't apply to Shara where they actually breed channelers or to the Isle of Madmen where Male Channelers rule -- insomuch as anyone rules there.

The ability has been culled, but blaiming it solely on the Aes Sedai (as in "denizens of the WhiteTower) contradicts what he wrote in the books (or approved in the BWB.)

[Neilbert]

Well, the Seanchan and the Sea Folk have similar policies (in fact, if anything these policies are more aggressive when it comes to removing male channelers from the gene pool), and the Island of Madmen is such a chaotic place it's impossible to be certain about their demographics.

As for Shara? They might possibly have the most robust channeling population due to their breeding programs. Or maybe they did until the Cleansing stirred everything up.

[greatwolf]

That quote does inspire a follow-up question -- "how does Aes Sedai policy affect other lands?"

well channeling woman marry and hold high positions among the aiel and seafolk so the numbers should be high there. The seanchan suldam also marry and pass the genes along, but the damane dont. Since damane are probably very few (the sparkers i believe) then it shouldn't affect seanchan numbers all that much. cant say much about the shara until we know more.

[Weird Harold]

As for Shara? They might possibly have the most robust channeling population due to their breeding programs. Or maybe they did until the Cleansing stirred everything up.

Sadly, all of the information on the Ayyad is in the BWB and may well be one of it's inaccuracies/Red Herrings.

I've always figured that Demandred was working on recruiting Dreadlords from the Ayyad and that was the reason nobody can figure out what he's up to. I'm pretty sure we're not going to see Shara, but I won't be surprised to see Ayyad arrayed with the Shadow's forces.

I don't think we'll see many, if any, from the IOMM -- I think they're mostly just a "here there be demons" spot on the Map.

[Weird Harold]

well channeling woman marry and hold high positions among the aiel and seafolk so the numbers should be high there. The seanchan suldam also marry and pass the genes along, but the damane dont. Since damane are probably very few (the sparkers i believe) then it shouldn't affect seanchan numbers all that much.

The problem isn't really the female half of the reccessive trait, it's the Male half that is being culled world-wide except for the Ayadd and IOMM.

I suspect there is a tendency to avoid families who produce male channelers even where female channelers marry and/or bear children -- "Are you sure you want to marry him, his great-uncle six times went Mad -- some say he could actually Channel -- so there's Bad Blood in that line. You could do so much better with a someone of Good bloodlines like my nephew, the blacksmith."

There is also the natural dis-incentive for Channeling women to bear children that they will outlive most of their children -- and all of their childrens' fathers Channeling Women would therefore tend to have serious romantic entaglements and fewer children.

[Neilbert]

The Isle of Madmen might if anything be the most culled out. It's like Seanchan before the Seanchan, so you can bet most normal people would off any channeler given the opportunity.
And since there's no power structure, and men just go mad willy nilly, you can bet the channelers themselves have a kill or be killed policy (maybe at best small kingdoms).

VV Yeah, it's really just a thought exercise. I can't imagine anyone from Randland even wanting to go there for a loooong time yet.

[Weird Harold]

The Isle of Madmen might if anything be the most culled out. It's like Seanchan before the Seanchan, so you can bet most normal people would off any channeler given the opportunity.
And since there's no power structure, and men just go mad willy nilly, you can bet the channelers themselves have a kill or be killed policy (maybe at best small kingdoms).
The IOMM would be a fairly challenging and extensive world-building exercise all by it's little lonesome. As an extension of the overall WOT, I think it's an unwarranted diversion of creative juices from the main locus of the story.

That's why I think the name and sketchy discription in the BWB is all we're ever going to get.

[GonzoTheGreat]

The problem isn't really the female half of the reccessive trait, it's the Male half that is being culled world-wide except for the Ayadd and IOMM.I don't think that channeling ability is linked to the gender chromosomes, so it wouldn't be possible to selectively cull one or the other gender.

[Weird Harold]

I don't think that channeling ability is linked to the gender chromosomes, so it wouldn't be possible to selectively cull one or the other gender.

Given the possible variations in the development of the ability to Channel, I doubt that it's even connected to a single chromosome. If it were purely gender chromosome linked, the ability channel would be completely culled by now because there would be no men to provide the proper gender chromosome(s)

Recessive traits don't have to be gender-chromosome linked, but you do have to inherit the trait from BOTH parents for it to be active -- if you cull one gender of elements known to have both halves, you reduce the number of parents who can contribute one half to the next generation.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Oh yes, but then you'll diminish both male and female channelers in numbers (and possibly strength, depending on how it works genetically).

[Neilbert]

If it were purely gender chromosome linked, the ability channel would be completely culled by now because there would be no men to provide the proper gender chromosome(s)

Nah, most if not all learners would reproduce as anyone else normally would, never aware that they could potentially tap into Saidin.

[Weird Harold]

Oh yes, but then you'll diminish both male and female channelers in numbers (and possibly strength, depending on how it works genetically).

Nah, most if not all learners would reproduce as anyone else normally would, never aware that they could potentially tap into Saidin.

The reduction would be most noticeable in Sparkers and Learners of both genders would be reduced as well -- which fits the orginal concerns of the Yellow Ajah about the decline in new Novices and with RJ's estimation of the overal reduction in the distribution of Channelers from 3% to just over 1%.

[Neilbert]

To throw another twist on the equation:

Aes Sedai Learners seldom have children. Heck, Aes Sedai seldom have children period. That's a substantial chunk of female Learners and Sparkers removed from the breeding population.

So pretty much it's down to the Kin, the Wise Ones and Male Learners keeping channeling alive in Randland. Yikes.

[Enigma]

The Aes Sedai's own incompitence may have actually helped preserve the pool of potential channelers. We know that before Egwene's recent recruitment drive the numbers in the White Tower were going down as less and less women came to Tar Valon.

Fewer AS recruits meens more women in the general population who have the gene and are having kids to pass on their abilities to.

[Jonai]

I've never understood how the soul aspect of channeling interacts with the genetic. The examples of souls being able to channel that we have are the Forsaken and the Dragon. The degree of ability seems to be tied to the soul, as Balthy, Aginor, and Ishamael were just thrown into what was available. So do souls that are linked to channeling still need both recessives to be able to channel? And is it like an off/on switch? Because it sure as hell isn't determining their strength.

[Weird Harold]

I've never understood how the soul aspect of channeling interacts with the genetic.

Lots of previous discussions with precious little consensus suggest that you're not alone. :D

RJ said that stilling or burnout doesn't afffect the ability to channel afteer rebirth so there is a physical component to Channeling. That implies that burnout is a physical injury and "burnout" can be described as "inadvertantly channeling more power than your strength allows" -- the body would appear to be the weak link at maximum power usage.

Aran'gar/Balthamel/Halima demonstrates that it is the Soul that determines which half of the Power is channeled.

Transmigrations can't really prove what strength is tied to because the Forsaken returned at "full strength" except for Cyndane and the DO is presumably capable of tampering with souls or bodies to dleiver the amount of ability He chooses to.

All we know with relative certainty is both Body and Soul (probably) have to be channeling capable.

[GonzoTheGreat]

RJ said that stilling or burnout doesn't afffect the ability to channel afteer rebirth so there is a physical component to Channeling. That implies that burnout is a physical injury and "burnout" can be described as "inadvertantly channeling more power than your strength allows" -- the body would appear to be the weak link at maximum power usage.Not quite necessarily, perhaps.

It could also be that the Channeling link is one that is part of (or attached to) the the personality. In that case, if a Severed person (like Asmodean's mother) were reborn normally, she would be able to Channel again. But if her previous personality would take over (as LTT tries with Rand), then that ability to use the OP would be gone again.
Which brings us to yet another (so far unmentioned, as far as I know) suspect for Asmodean's killing: his dear old mum. Meeting her in Caemlyn pantry would definitely be a surprise, I think.

[greatwolf]

RJ said that stilling or burnout doesn't afffect the ability to channel afteer rebirth so there is a physical component to Channeling. That implies that burnout is a physical injury and "burnout" can be described as "inadvertantly channeling more power than your strength allows" -- the body would appear to be the weak link at maximum power usage..

I'm not clear how made this jump.

Transmigrations can't really prove what strength is tied to because the Forsaken returned at "full strength" except for Cyndane and the DO is presumably capable of tampering with souls or bodies to dleiver the amount of ability He chooses to.


We don't know what the DO can do. RJ mentioned a suitable body but if the body had to have similar strength levels, then it would probably be near impossible to resurrect someone like Ishy. There would be few bodies capable of channeling so strongly around at ANY time and likely none at the time of his death, so kaput.

So likely strength isn't determined by the body. Which is lucky for Rand/LT. And since Arangar can channel saidin in a female body, then it does affect that either. Perhaps the body is only determines whether you can channel or not.

[Weird Harold]

RJ said that stilling or burnout doesn't afffect the ability to channel afteer rebirth so there is a physical component to Channeling. That implies that burnout is a physical injury and "burnout" can be described as "inadvertantly channeling more power than your strength allows" -- the body would appear to be the weak link at maximum power usage.

I'm not clear how made this jump.

If burnout doesn't affect the Soul, what else is left to affect other than the Body?

If too much power causes burnout and burnout doesn't affect the soul, the the body must be the limiting factor in whether a channeler burns out or not -- i.e. the limiting factor in how much OP can be drawn.

][quote=Weird Harold]Transmigrations can't really prove what strength is tied to because the Forsaken returned at "full strength" except for Cyndane and the DO is presumably capable of tampering with souls or bodies to dleiver the amount of ability He chooses to.
QUOTE]

We don't know what the DO can do. RJ mentioned a suitable body but if the body had to have similar strength levels, then it would probably be near impossible to resurrect someone like Ishy.

That minor detail supports the idea that the DO can modify strength as well as it does that the body doesn't control strength. Without RJ's explanation that burnout doesn't affect the soul, they would be exactly equal inferences -- but we do have RJ's explanation and the logical deduction above to tip the balance.

I don't give much credence to Gonzo's "personality link" idea because what makes a personality (memories/experience) is part of the soul.

Also, "burnout" can kill as well as cripple, which seems to me to be a lot more "physical" than just a "mental block" imposed on a particular segment of a soul.

I'll have to see if I can find it, but I think there is at least one reference to burnout causing disfigurement/visible damage as well as the metaphysical damage of losing the ability to even sense the True Source.

[Enigma]

While I am completly clueless in engineering etc might it be that the body is like a fuse when it comes to channeling. Long before the OP overload can harm the soul the body gives out and is either severed or burned out or just killed.

[Jonai]

I know what I'm about to say is pure speculation, so there you have it. I don't really buy into that the DO can modify One Power strength. If he could, he probably didn't care in the War of the Power. During that time period (at least in the beginning before so many Aes Sedai died) there were at a minimum hundreds of thousands of Aes Sedai, perhaps over one million. Tool breaks, get another. RJ said it was almost a 50/50 light/shadow split. In the here and now though he has less than a dozen Chosen as long as a few hundred third age savages. Don't you think if he could he'd be executing and resurrecting minions left and right? Mesaana, Semirhage, Graendal, Moghedien, you bitches are dead, but now you're all the same strength. Savages, prepare to die, and prepare to be ready to travel bitches, MY HAND MOVES. MUWHAHAHA.

Or something like that.

On burn out: I'd reckon it's highly subjective depending on the situation WH. Given though that the first clue you have that you are close to burning out is physical pain, I think that there's a good chance that many cases result in disfigurement, if not out right death. A lot might have to do with how much of the Power you burning out with. Sorilea burning out, maybe some blisters. LTT burning out, geographical upheaval.

[Weird Harold]

While I am completly clueless in engineering etc might it be that the body is like a fuse when it comes to channeling. Long before the OP overload can harm the soul the body gives out and is either severed or burned out or just killed.
That's a reasonable concept. I don't think it's the only reason there has to be Channeling ability in the Body, but it could well be a secondary function.

[Weird Harold]

I know what I'm about to say is pure speculation, so there you have it. I don't really buy into that the DO can modify One Power strength. If he could, he probably didn't care in the War of the Power. ... Don't you think if he could he'd be executing and resurrecting minions left and right?

It is commonly accepted the the DO has the power to "remake the Wheel in his own image" if he breaks free. It is difficult to deny the possibility that he can do whatever he wants to the physical bodies of his minions...

I think he can't do anything to modify a Soul until he does Break Free because Souls belong to the Creator; He can destroy a Soul or move it to a new body, but he "doesn't have the right password" or access to modify one.

Also, I think each Soul's Channeling ability has a limit that is independent of the body's development -- eg Potential Strength comes from the Soul and Actual Strength is limited by the Body.

IOW, the DO can Force a body to mature enough to allow a Soul's full capability, but he can't change the Soul's potential.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It is difficult to deny the possibility that he can do whatever he wants to the physical bodies of his minions...It may be difficult, but I can manage that feat. But then, I'm not called "the Great" for nothing, so ...

If the DO could do whatever he wanted to the physical bodies of his minions, then he would not have needed Aginor to make all that Shadowspawn, he could have done so himself. Thus, I would say that Aginor is evidence that there are some fairly strict limitations on what the DO can and cannot do, at least as long as he is locked up in his prison.
Once he breaks free, all bets are off.

[greatwolf]

If burnout doesn't affect the Soul, what else is left to affect other than the Body?

The bridge.

There has to be a link between soul and body. There may be other things in RJ's cosmology to account for that but the books certainly do not support the idea.

[Weird Harold]

If the DO could do whatever he wanted to the physical bodies of his minions, then he would not have needed Aginor to make all that Shadowspawn, he could have done so himself. Thus, I would say that Aginor is evidence that there are some fairly strict limitations on what the DO can and cannot do, at least as long as he is locked up in his prison.
Once he breaks free, all bets are off.

I think Aginor's involvement in creating the Shadow spawn was as the "Idea Man" -- The DO is clearly not Omniscient and the ability to think up things to do isn't necessarily a prerequisite for the ability to do them once somebody else thinks them up.

He's also somewhat limited by the remaining Seals but it would appear to be more a range or size limitation than a procedural limitation.

[Weird Harold]

If burnout doesn't affect the Soul, what else is left to affect other than the Body?

The bridge.

There has to be a link between soul and body. ...

What is the bridge made of? Is it physical (a part of the body) or metaphysical (a part of the Soul.) I can't see anything in books to suggest that there is anything else for it to be made of.

If you sever the "bridge" connecting the Soul to the body the person dies and if you're not sevring that bridge, why does there have to be two connections between the Soul and Body; one for living and one for Channeling?

One other thing to consider about the Body's role in Channeling and Channeling Strength:

Why does Channeling ability appear at or shortly after puberty and not reach full potential until the body is fully mature?

[greatwolf]

What is the bridge made of? ...

If you sever the "bridge" connecting the Soul to the body the person dies

Affecting the bridge doesn't mean it has to sever the connection. But it affects it somewhere. But we have no RW parallels to play with here do we? ESP?

[Weird Harold]

Affecting the bridge doesn't mean it has to sever the connection. But it affects it somewhere. But we have no RW parallels to play with here do we? ESP?

The 'Silver Cord' tradition of Astral Projection "practioners" is probably the best R/W model for Soul/body connections -- and is an imagery that RJ used in tEotW:

Suddenly he felt something, saw it, though he knew it was not there to see. A glowing rope ran off from Aginor, behind him, white like sunlight seen through the purest cloud, heavier than a blacksmith's arm, lighter than air, connecting the Forsaken to something distant beyond knowing, something within the touch of Rand's hand.

That of course is pure Saidin from the Eye, not the 'Silver Cord' connecting one's body to one's astral projection but the imagery is the same.

[greatwolf]

I agree though it only tells us that there is a connection not the nature of it. We know that the OP affects the body and is channeled/ultilized by the soul.

If it affects the body, then it affects the genes. Especially when you consider things like aging.

But a body that cannot channel can hardly be suitable for the DR. From what we've seen, LT could have ended up in a female body and he'd still channel saidin. But his "appetites" and personality would CHANGE.

A bisexual DR would be as much a problem for instance, as Rand's current state of mind poses for cadsuane and co. He would have a tendency to increase chaos and disorder around him. That would be pretty bad for a taveren.

[Weird Harold]

If it affects the body, then it affects the genes. Especially when you consider things like aging.


You've got that backwards The genes affect the body, not vice versa. Things like Slowing aren't "genetic" because Learners who never learn to Channel don't Slow, but do Slow if they ever channel one erg.

It's a bit like people who don't take vitamin supplements vs those who do take vitamin supplements -- the life expectancy of the latter is generally longer, no matter what their genetic predispositions might be.

A bisexual DR would be as much a problem for instance, as Rand's current state of mind poses for cadsuane and co. ...

:eek: :confused:

I think that proposition says more about your prejudices thanit does about the effectiveness of a bi-sexual Dragon.

The societies of the WOT are much more rational about sexual preference than the Real World in general and far more rational than the US. I don't think even an openly gay dragon in a three-way gay marriage would cause anyone in the WOT to question his competence.

("Gay marriage" didn't sem to slow down Alexander the Great and he is one of the models for the Dragon archetype )

[GonzoTheGreat]

Perhaps he meant hermaphrodite. If so, then that's something that RJ definitely had not considered until his fans started asking questions about it. And even then he still wasn't willing to think about it, even though the questions were definitely logical and sensible. :(

[greatwolf]

Perhaps he meant hermaphrodite.

Yeah, I was thinking hermaphrodite.

You've got that backwards The genes affect the body, not vice versa.

It works both ways. And there are viruses that affect the pathway that begins with genes and ens in protein formation. The body also needs to regulate the production of certain proteins at different times.

I dont recall the details and I doubt RJ ever went too deep into it, but aging affects the cells of the body and you cant reverse aging as it occurs in slowing, without affecting the cells at the nuclear (genetic) level.