Effects of a Doorframe

[Sodas]

There is a good deal of talk about how Lanfear lost her significant advantage in One Power strength, and there seems to be a nice influx of new faces. I think it would be a good idea to recap the other side, which I came to after I couldn't reconcile the idea that Lanfear would be allowed to re-enter Finnland a second time (as some have suggested because they believe the Finn granted the enhancements in the first place).

I have proposed that Lanfear was stilled upon her entry into Finnland because she was holding the Source very strongly at the moment she fell through the Doorframe. Since the rules of physics are different in Finnland, it's possible that it's physically impossible to actively channel while passing into Finnland. The results of such an occurance would result in that energy suddenly being released into the real world - which I believe melted the Doorways.

Lanfear was then held captive, no wishes, until she starved to death. Therefore, she died stilled, and would be recycled by the Dark One stilled.

My feeling is that niether the Dark One nor Moridin could Heal the stilling properly. Both use the True Power, and it seems like the True Power is the last thing you'd want to try to fix a conduit between a human and the One Power. What they needed was knowing how to Heal the stilling with Saidin, but that was impossible to find. Therefore, I propose that Moghedien Healed Cyndane, while they were both Mindtrapped, which has lead to the reduction in ability.

[Neilbert]

I don't even know where to begin.

[Frenzy]

keep searching, you'll find it

[GonzoTheGreat]

I do know where to begin.
Since the rules of physics are different in Finnland, it's possible that it's physically impossible to actively channel while passing into Finnland. The results of such an occurance would result in that energy suddenly being released into the real world - which I believe melted the Doorways.I admit that I do not have precise evidence regarding the point you're raising here. But we do have evidence in regard to what does seem a very similar situation: passing the other doorframe in the other direction.

When Rand came back from his meeting with the *finns, he was retreating out of the doorframe, holding that flaming sword in his hands. That means that he was actually channeling during his passage, and no bad effects seem to have occurred as a result of it.

A more rational explanation, which has the same stilling effect, would be that suddenly losing her angreal left Lanfear holding more of the OP than she could handle, resulting in her losing control of it and (eventually, at the time the doorframe grew quiet again) being stilled.
My feeling is that niether the Dark One nor Moridin could Heal the stilling properly.I suspect that it was done by a BA member, who had learned how to do it from Nynaeve. So Lanfear would suffer the same type of reduction as Siuan and Leane did, only worse.

Of course, a rather weak point here, for both our approaches, is that she would have been burned out, which can't be Healed.

[Neilbert]

Thank you Gonzo.

I'm going to go with the fact that you can't mindtrap someone who can't channel, though maybe being severed is different for some reason?

And Moghedien is less than talented when it comes to Healing.

[greatwolf]

I have proposed that Lanfear was stilled upon her entry into Finnland because she was holding the Source very strongly at the moment she fell through the Doorframe. Since the rules of physics are different in Finnland, it's possible that it's physically impossible to actively channel while passing into Finnland.

IIRC, lanfear and Moiraine were both channeling as they went through the door and comtinued for some afterwards. So merely passing through it didn't still them but what they were doing might have threatened the world of the finns and they decided to still both to protect themselves. But not the doorway itself. I dont see that from what you've posted.

I think the doorway melted because the pattern didn't want rand going after moiraine, which he likely would have done.

Therefore, I propose that Moghedien Healed Cyndane, while they were both Mindtrapped, which has lead to the reduction in ability.

This is much more likely or at least that saidar was used in healing cyndane since they couldn't touch the OP with the TP.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Whoever it was, it was not Moghedien. When she first met Moridin, he had another mindtrap, presumably Cyndane's. Yet Moghedien had known nothing about that other one up to then.

[Ishara]

Greatwolf:

Um, how can you possibly infer that they were still channeling after they went throught the door? They went through the door. You can't channel through the door unless you yourself are going/coming through the door. Rand proved that in the Stone.

Nevermind the fact that you don't know that the 'Finn can Still people. You don't know that!

Also, Moghedian has said, more than once, that she has the Healing ability of a toad. She would not be able to Heal a Stilling. Move on.

[Neilbert]

To be fair Ishara, Rand didn't prove you couldn't channel through a doorway, he didn't even try, though I'm sure the Finn would have a problem with people channeling into their realm willy nilly.

As to the Finn being able to still people? You are correct in that it has never been stated that they can... but:

Robert Jordan Answers: Oh, yes, there definitely are limits to the powers of the Eelfinn. For one thing, they cannot affect the outside world at all. If you said that you wanted to be King of the World, you might well find that what you received was not what you expected. For example, they might put you out of their world into a world with no other sentient life, where you would be king by default. Then again, you might find yourself with the necessary skills to make yourself King of the World, if you were able. Actually achieving it would be up to you. But then, many of their "gifts" are skewed in this way. You must be very careful is you're asking if you want to receive what you are hoping for. And yet, remember that Mat actually did receive very much what he asked for. Just not in the way that he wanted.

It's not exactly unreasonable to believe they could. Personally I wonder if they can "modify" a channelers strength, but determining whether or not a person could channel might be beyond their limits.

I would also think, that under most circumstances, channelers aren't helpless against the Finn, if only because they could create fire and music.

And as to why the door melted:


RJ: "When Moiraine and Lanfear went through the ter'angreal, it burned in part because both were channeling, and the world on the other side of the doorway has a radically different set of natural laws. The odd optical effects witnessed in that other world are not artificially produced artifacts."

So the full explanation goes beyond the fact that they were channeling, but channeling did play a role.

[Weird Harold]

I don't even know where to begin.

I do. :D

Lanfear was then held captive, no wishes, until she starved to death. Therefore, she died stilled, and would be recycled by the Dark One stilled.

IIRC, there is an RJ Q&A that says stilling and/or burnout do not affect the ability to channel when the soul is reborn. We can then infer that stilling and/or burnout affect only the body and "recyling" someone after they die is the only practical way of Healing burn-out.

The only way Healing of stilling or Burn-out can enter the picture is if Lanfear did NOT die in *finnland but escaped/was rescued alive but unable to Channel.

...What they needed was knowing how to Heal the stilling with Saidin, but that was impossible to find. Therefore, I propose that Moghedien Healed Cyndane, while they were both Mindtrapped, which has lead to the reduction in ability.

A second theory killer: the transformation/transmigration Lanfear to Cyndane didn't cause the amount of power loss that same gender Healing causes.

Cyndane didn't drop below any known person who was weaker than Lanfear, so she lost 4.76% (or less) of maximum possible strength.

Siuan and Leanne both dropped at least 14.28% of maximum possible strength or 3 levels and have to defer to many AS who previously had to defer to them. The difference in absolute power levels is probably greater that 3:1 but it is at least 3 times more than Cyndane lost from when she was Lanfear.

Perhaps Stilling can be Healed by the True Power but the loss of ability isn't as great as Healing with the same half of the One Power -- If, of course, Healing was any kind of consideration at all because Lanfear would have been burnt-out, not stilled and either affects only the body, as far as we know.

[Brita]

You know, this is a very simplistic theory on Lanfear's reduced ability- but I had always assumed it was a punishment from the Dark One. When he transformed her to Cyndane, he altered her ability and gave her a less attractive body, as punishment for her failure. That was just my knee-jerk assumption- you may dash it to pieces if you wish :D But it conveniently hits her in her weakest areas- her vanity and pride.

[GonzoTheGreat]

A sensible but prosaic idea. I think you're correct, but I doubt you will gain many converts.

[Neilbert]

It's a decent explanation, but it doesn't mesh with a few things to me. Some I've already posted, but to give another example..

None of the Forsaken consider that Cyndane could be Lanfear because of her reduced ability. If the Forsaken knew it was possible for the Dark One to reduce someone's ability, wouldn't they come to the conclusion that it's unlikely that there are two psychos who call Rand "Lews Therin" out there?

[Brita]

None of the Forsaken consider that Cyndane could be Lanfear because of her reduced ability. If the Forsaken knew it was possible for the Dark One to reduce someone's ability, wouldn't they come to the conclusion that it's unlikely that there are two psychos who call Rand "Lews Therin" out there?

Why is it imperitive the forsaken would know this? There is no evidence that the DO has had a previous opportunity or desire to transmigrate one of his pets and mute their ability. It is a good argument to consider, but easily worked around, I think. It is quite clear the DO keeps the Forsaken in the dark (haha, pun intended) on a lot of things.

[Neilbert]

It's not imperative, but if anyone would be aware of it it would be the Forsaken. The Forsaken seem to see taking people to the Pit of Doom for special "treatments" as a matter of course, so it's likely they would be familiar with the Dark Ones methods.

The Forsaken are all aware of transmitigration, the Dark One did it numerous times in the Age of Legends, so he certainly had the opportunity. We can debate his desire if you want, but I'm not sure what the point would be.

It could be some ultra super secret punishment ability, but combined with Lanfear saying she was stronger before the Finn held her, I really can't think so.

[GonzoTheGreat]

In the previous Age, the DO only transmigrated a Chosen if he really needed him very badly, because there were plenty left, so in that case there was no need to mess around with "partial restorations as punishment". If he wanted to punish, he simply did not restore, case closed.
But now talent is very scarce on the ground (the DO shares the Forsaken's disdain for the sophistication of the Third Age channelers), so he can't afford to just leave her dead.

Thus, the Forsaken may not know about this ability of the DO because he never used it before within their frame of knowledge.

[Neilbert]

Gonzo missed my last paragraph, so I'll repeat it for him.

It could be some ultra super secret punishment ability, but combined with Lanfear saying she was stronger before the Finn held her, I really can't think so.

If he wanted to punish, he simply did not restore, case closed.

That's probably true, but what if the Dark One needed someone like Agnior's Talents, but not his Strength, and he messed up real bad, but you still need an army of Shadowspawn?

It's not impossible to imagine a scenario where the Dark One might reduce someone's Strength as a punishment, even in the AoL.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I don't think it would be smart to mess with Aginor's ability to channel, if you resurrect him specifically for his very special channeling abilities.
Of course, I'm too lazy to be a Dark Lord, so your mileage may vary.

[Neilbert]

That's the beauty of arguing about the Dark One's actions.

You can always fall back on the old stand by that you can't use human thought patterns to predict his behavior.

[Sodas]

As always, some interesting counter points.

I think your numbers WH are off. Besides, the tier system isn't a definitive number but artificial rankings. So the difference between 22 and 23 (low ranks) is a lot tighter than 1 and 2. Lanfear could have lost significant power, and still been #1 because she was so much more powerful than any other female, while many were already close to leane and siuan.

As for the concept itself, I think that you are jumping to the conclussion on what channeling is linked to. Its linked to the soul, and doesn't change even in another body. I feel channeling is more about a conduit that the soul creates. If damaged, then it stays like that until rebirth when the pattern fixes the issue naturally because the body/soul is reborn with a fresh conduit.

As for moggy? I don't care who healed cyndane. That's fine if it was a BA member. So good point gonzo.

But I don't think she was burned out. I think her connection was cut as if from a knife when she crossed. That doorframe to me should have been like a wall.

As for rand and his flame sword ...
First that is going out, not in.
Second I wholey believe that Rand prolly tied off the sword, while still holding the power, versus actively fighting like lanfear was. So the flows were actively moving through her.

[Weird Harold]

I think your numbers WH are off. Besides, the tier system isn't a definitive number but artificial rankings. So the difference between 22 and 23 (low ranks) is a lot tighter than 1 and 2. Lanfear could have lost significant power, and still been #1 because she was so much more powerful than any other female, while many were already close to leane and siuan.

And you know that the tier system isn't a "definitive number" because...?

As far as I know, the only mention of that scale is the signing report Neilbert posted in the other thread:

On channeler strength: he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found. They were the strongest Aes Sedai known before "the new ones". Several Aes Sedai, including Leane and Kiruna, were next in strength. By the old standards they were deemed very strong and capable. ...

Unless RJ made his reference charts a LOT more complicated than they need to be -- as in a logrithmic scale or geometric progression -- a simple linear division of 21 equal parts is most probable. (21 is an odd choice for divisions, but a perfect fit for a random bell curve generator equivalent to "4D6-3")

IF the scale is linear, then the numbers I gave are very close to exact for the minimum differences (4.76% is rounded down to two decimal places from a hugely long decimal portion.) and I see no reason for the scale to be non-linear given RJ's stated purpose of using it just to determine who should defer to whom.

[Neilbert]

I take it you missed the other quote I posted.

[Sodas]

I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth.

- Robert Jordan on his blog

It's a scale of position, rather than a scale of equally segmented steps in channeling power.

[Neilbert]

I suspect RJ is also good enough at math to handle exponential growth (and other models) without too much effort.

He described channeling strength as a bell curve at one point... that's hardly linear.

VV Ever stop to consider that there might be a good reason they both don't mention the 0-21 scale? Especially considering that the other quote was a correction of a previous mistake, and the quote you posted was reported second hand?

[Weird Harold]

I take it you missed the other quote I posted.
no, I referred to that quote whenI said RJ used it todetermine who deferred to whom.

I didn't think it was necessary to copy both of them since only one refers to the 21 scale.

[Weird Harold]

I suspect RJ is also good enough at math to handle exponential growth (and other models) without too much effort.

He described channeling strength as a bell curve at one point... that's hardly linear.

I take it neither of you have ever plotted a Bell curve distribution of integers from 1 to 21, inclusive?

It would normally be plotted as a bar graph because there are no intermediate fractional values.

This is the sort of Bell Curve RJ would need; each bar would be built of character names that fit that particular strength value.

http://www.mathworks.com/access/helpdesk/help/techdoc/ref/bar1.gif


You guys are talking about the vertical axis, I'm talking about the entire graph.

[Sodas]

That graph would represent the population at each level, not the actual power levels of the channelers.

I would think a model based more akin to the Richter scale would be more appropriate for accurately representing power levels in graph form. Afterall, the Richter scale is really just a measurement of energy release.

-1.5 on the Richter scale = 6 ounces of TNT = Breaking a rock on a lab table = what a novice could do

2.0 on the Richter scale = 1 ton of TNT = Large Quarry or Mine Blast = what your average Asha'man can do

7.0 on the Richter scale = 32 million tons of TNT = Hyogo-Ken Nanbu, Japan Quake, 1995; Largest Thermonuclear Weapon = what LTT prolly did unaided to create Dragonmount

etc. you get my point.

[Neilbert]

The point was that RJ is well aware of the existence of non linear models.

[Weird Harold]

That graph would represent the population at each level, not the actual power levels of the channelers.

The power levels of the channelers would be the horizontal axis -- 21 discrete values. The population at each value have to defer to those in columns to the right and be deferred to by those on the left.

Those within a single column defer or not on some other basis than strength.

It's not rocket science and it doesn't require logrithmic scaling or complex calculations. Adding a new minor character would be as simple as rolling four six sided dice if the strength wasn't particularly important or relvant to the character's role -- or he could just pick a number out of thin air.

The point was that RJ is well aware of the existence of non linear models.

Yes he most certainly would know of non-linear models, the question is why would he use one? A system represented by chart/graph like the one I linked would serve his needs niclely without bogging down the storytelling with extraneous computations.

2.0 on the Richter scale = 1 ton of TNT = Large Quarry or Mine Blast = what your average Asha'man can do

7.0 on the Richter scale = 32 million tons of TNT = Hyogo-Ken Nanbu, Japan Quake, 1995; Largest Thermonuclear Weapon = what LTT prolly did unaided to create Dragonmount

etc. you get my point.

Do you honestly believe that Nyneave is 10 times as strong s Egwene, Elayne, and Aviendha and 100 times as strong as Elaida, Siuan and Moriane? Considering that Lanfear was clearly a "grade 21" whatever that might mean, it would mean that Nyneave is only 0.01 times as strong (because there has to be a grade for Greandal and Semirhage between Nyneave and Moghedien.)

On channeler strength: he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale. Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found. They were the strongest Aes Sedai known before "the new ones". Several Aes Sedai, including Leane and Kiruna, were next in strength. By the old standards they were deemed very strong and capable. ...

I haven't seen anything in the series to indicate such vast differences in power between different grades as you propose.

Question: Why do you suppose RJ used a 21-grade scale instead of some other more easily managed number. What non-linear system do you propose that RJ used that naturally broke down into 21 distinct grades? Preferably one that also generates a bell curve?

I think he used four dice from his Yachtzee game to randomly generate the "spear-carrier" type channelers because that is a K.I.S.S answer that explains why 21 divisions and while still providing a bell curve distribution of channeling ability.

Either of you geniuses got a better explanation that fits that criteria?

[Neilbert]

Question: Why do you suppose RJ used a 21-grade scale instead of some other more easily managed number. What non-linear system do you propose that RJ used that naturally broke down into 21 distinct grades? Preferably one that also generates a bell curve?

Perhaps you missed the part where I don't think RJ used a 21 grade scale, or the other part where I really don't care what specific number he decided on.

For sheep the evicted, who has heard that I assigned various numerical strengths in the One Power to Rand, Ishamael and others based on a scale of 100 points, no I did not. I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth.

All we really know is that he has some sort of scale that allows him to check who should defer to who.

But if it is a 21 (or whatever smallish number) grade scale, it would probably be some take on orders of magnitude. Like the richter scale model Sodas gave. (BTW fixating on the 10x as strong aspect misses the entire point, the 10x thing isn't a requirement by any means). A 2 could be 10% stronger than a 1, and a 3 could be 10% stronger than a 2 and etc...

A 2 would have to be stronger enough than a 1 to be deferd to, regardless of how little time the 1 spent as a novice or accepted, and regardless of how talented the 1 was.

Some sort of exponential growth model fits what we know much better than a linear one.

[Weird Harold]

Perhaps you missed the part where I don't think RJ used a 21 grade scale, or the other part where I really don't care what specific number he decided on.

he said that he knew the rough strength of every channeler in the books, imposed on a 21-graded scale.


If the evidence you bring into the discussion doesn't mean anything, then I guess you get to claim victory again becaue I don't feel like plying your game today.

[Davian93]

If the evidence you bring into the discussion doesn't mean anything, then I guess you get to claim victory again becaue I don't feel like plying your game today.

WH, why are you even bothering at this point?

I, for one, happen to agree with you on this and its fairly certain that RJ used a simple bell curve with a lineal progression of strength in the OP. There is no reason, or evidence for that matter, of a richter scale type of progression.

[Neilbert]

If the evidence you bring into the discussion doesn't mean anything, then I guess you get to claim victory again becaue I don't feel like plying your game today.

If only you get to determine what specific evidence is valid then there's no point in participating in the real world and you might as well go back to Weird Harold's crazyland. Take your scarecrow with you.

There is no reason, or evidence for that matter, of a richter scale type of progression.

Evidence, maybe.
Reasons? Please. Exponential growth handles outliers much better, and linear growth seldom fits the real world.

Linear growth just doesn't fit. If it were linear, and a 21 point scale, it would have to be really steep to account for both Morgase/Sorelia, and Alivia/Lanfear/Sharina. And if it were that steep, and linear, then things like how long an Aes Sedai was a novice would be weighted much more heavily at higher power levels, and I really don't think that is the case.

If someone can find the weight Siuan believes she should be able to lift, and we can agree on some small weight for the flag Morgase, and we can figure out what number Siuan (pre-healing) should be on the scale, we should be able to extrapolate RJ's 21 point linear growth chart for ourselves and see exactly why it's so strange.

[Sodas]

Lol, whatever. The reason its 21 is because the women in this world determine their status based off the scale. That 21 scale means nothing to men and channeling in general.

As for the difference at high end, I doubt each tier is like another 10x. That's a strawman you are creating. More likely each level is just a fraction better ( 10 percent maybe ).

[Neilbert]

Q: At one point, Lanfear reflects that she was about as powerful as it was possible to be. Is there an upper limit to human channeling ability, some sort of asymptote that channelers approach but never pass beyond?
RJ: Yes, there is an upper limit. In terms of the channeling of raw amounts of the One Power, men can handle more than women. However, women are much more dexterous in their ability to use the One Power, so for all extents and purposes, they are equal in their abilities to do and create weaves and are mostly equal to each other.

I'm pretty sure RJ knows exactly what the statement "Yes, there is an upper limit" means, especially to somebody asking about "some sort of asymtope".

Because of the definition of "limit" we can only conclude that is it possible to be stronger than anyone, even Lanfear, Alivia, Sharina, Ishamael, and Rand.

Also kicks linear growth in the nuts pretty hard.

Holy nutsack it's a sin curve.

What non-linear system do you propose that RJ used that naturally broke down into 21 distinct grades? Preferably one that also generates a bell curve?

Well, it's been a while since high school and I can't find my graphing calculator but...
y=21(sin(X))
From X=0* to X=90* (i can't find the degree key)

If I remembered how I could even throw in a stair function for ya, and give 21 very distinct grades.

Cut it in half, flip it around, and rotate it a bit and it's a rather swell bell curve.

E: You might have to use 22 instead of 21, but you (should) get the point.

[Sodas]

WH, why are you even bothering at this point?

I, for one, happen to agree with you on this and its fairly certain that RJ used a simple bell curve with a lineal progression of strength in the OP. There is no reason, or evidence for that matter, of a richter scale type of progression.

If such a progression was co-equal sections, then the difference between 1-2 or 20-21, would be the same.

Do you therefore believe the difference between Lanfear and Cyndane is the same as Morgase and Sorilea?

[Weird Harold]

As for the difference at high end, I doubt each tier is like another 10x. That's a strawman you are creating. More likely each level is just a fraction better ( 10 percent maybe ).

10X the previous value is what an exponential progression means in Base Ten.

I suppose he could have used a binary or trinary exponential scale, 1,2,4,8... or 1,3,9,27,54... But why would he?


The Richter Scale is a logrithmic scale meaning it can use fractional exponents instead of integers.

What you're describing is compound interest calculation.

But The evidence doesn't really support a variable interval:

Nynaeve he said had Forsaken strength, i.e. as strong as most female Forsaken. Egwene, Elayne and Aviendha were a step lower, and an additional step lower Elaida, Siuan and Moiraine were found.

Could Siuan and Moiraine linked overpower (shield) Egwene, Elayne or Aviendha? How about Nyneave?

IF the scale is Exponential or Logrithmic, the answer would be no. A compund interest scale might go either way, but woul dbe difficult to distinguish from a linear division.

The big question is why would RJ violate the KISS principle and waste time on a more complicated system than keeping four dice next to the computer?



Q: At one point, Lanfear reflects that she was about as powerful as it was possible to be. Is there an upper limit to human channeling ability, some sort of asymptote that channelers approach but never pass beyond?
RJ: Yes, there is an upper limit. In terms of the channeling of raw amounts of the One Power, men can handle more than women. However, women are much more dexterous in their ability to use the One Power, so for all extents and purposes, they are equal in their abilities to do and create weaves and are mostly equal to each other.

I'm pretty sure RJ knows exactly what the statement "Yes, there is an upper limit" means, especially to somebody asking about "some sort of asymtope".

Because of the definition of "limit" we can only conclude that is it possible to be stronger than anyone, even Lanfear, Alivia, Sharina, Ishamael, and Rand.

I'm positive RJ knew what he meant. I have great doubts as to whther you do.

"limit" has several definitions but in practical terms, it means that you can only be "AS strong" as another channeler at the limit because at some point the difference between the strongest and the limit gets into a LOT of decimal places.

Well, it's been a while since high school and I can't find my graphing calculator but...
y=21(sin(X))
From X=0* to X=90* (i can't find the degree key)
...
E: You might have to use 22 instead of 21, but you (should) get the point.

Well, if you have to go to 22 grades, it doesn't fit the criteria of fitting the 21 grade scale.

Care to explain how your graphing calculator and complicated equation are more suited to randomly assigning power levels to minor characters than keeping four dice next to the computer?

Three, four, and five regular dice used to be the tools math teachers used to teach about bell curves and how some are relatively flat and others very steep.

Of course, Texas Instruments and Hewlett Packard have made very successful efforts to get schools to require graphing calculators so you probably wouldn't know that.

[Sodas]

The Richter Scale is a logrithmic scale meaning it can use fractional exponents instead of integers.

Well, duh. This is why a general guildline to classify the lower end characters, who would be otherwise indiscernible on the Richter Scale, would come in handy. Afterall, the Richter Scale becomes unreliable in real world application at levels lower than 3.0 anyway.

The Richter Scale should apply because all we are really talking about is measuring energy. It might help to just call it energy yield. Energy yield should be universal between WoT and the real world. It takes x amount of energy to move a mountain in the real world, it should take x amount of energy in WoT. If we start talking about people being able to do things exponentially better than the weaker ones, it begs to reason that they are exponentially stronger.

The big question is why would RJ violate the KISS principle and waste time on a more complicated system than keeping four dice next to the computer?

That question is more about the method for where characters end up, rather than what they actually need to be able to do in the series.

But the idea of using dice would be fine. Whatever tickled Rj's fancy. I just think that maybe that would be a sign that RJ really didn't care too much about actual power, merely an easier way to breath life into what it means to be Aes Sedai.

[Neilbert]

10X the previous value is what an exponential progression means in Base Ten.

No it doesn't. n*1.10^X (or just 1.10^x) is an exponential progression in base ten and it doesn't require 10X the previous value.

Likewise n*2^x (or just 2^x) is exponential growth in base 10, and the next integer value is only twice the current one. (2,4,8,16,32,64,128 etc)

I think you are thinking of scientific notation... not exponential growth. You are also confusing the base with the degree of exponential growth.

The Richter Scale is a logrithmic scale meaning it can use fractional exponents instead of integers.

A logarithmic scale is exponential growth, just jacked around a bit, and exponential growth uses non-integers all the time.

What you're describing is compound interest calculation.

Which uses exponential growth. Did you fail basic algebra or something? A big clue is that it contains an exponent. A=P(1+(r/n))^nt newb.

Could Siuan and Moiraine linked overpower (shield) Egwene, Elayne or Aviendha? How about Nyneave?

I'm not sure linking is particularly relevant. Nor is shielding someone while they are embracing the source cus typically you have to be significantly stronger.

IF the scale is Exponential or Logrithmic, the answer would be no. A compund interest scale might go either way, but woul dbe difficult to distinguish from a linear division.

Yeah, I'm just going to say it. At this point it is clear that these terms do not mean what you think they mean.

The big question is why would RJ violate the KISS principle and waste time on a more complicated system than keeping four dice next to the computer?

He's a physicist, ever meet a physicist? "Complicated" systems are what they live for.

I'm positive RJ knew what he meant. I have great doubts as to whther you do.

I'm past doubts about your mathematical knowledge when you think compound interest isn't exponential growth.

"limit" has several definitions

In math it really doesn't. When "yes there is a vertical limit" is the response to "is there an asymptote", it's pretty clear they are using math definitions.

but in practical terms, it means that you can only be "AS strong" as another channeler at the limit because at some point the difference between the strongest and the limit gets into a LOT of decimal places.

That would depend how sharply the equation approaches the asymptote, but eventually you would be correct. Though I suspect even someone being a teensy tiny little bit stronger would piss Lanfear off beyond belief, practical differences or no.

Well, if you have to go to 22 grades, it doesn't fit the criteria of fitting the 21 grade scale.

A 21.9 would still be on the scale, approaching the limit of 22. 22 is needed to encapsulate a 21 point scale. This is really basic math. Also depends how you count 0.

Care to explain how your graphing calculator and complicated equation are more suited to randomly assigning power levels to minor characters than keeping four dice next to the computer?

Bitch please. What's complicated about a (slightly) modified sin curve?
But to actually address your question (novel concept I know) dice are random, and I might not want my Aes Sedai's power level to be randomly assigned. Kinda sucks when I roll a (metaphoric)20 when introducing some random trivial character.

Why do you assume RJ would randomly assign power levels to all Aes Sedai? Especially the ones important enough to spend time writing about?

If you want random and 21 point scale he could just use a dart board. Bulls eye could be Sharina Melloy.

Three, four, and five regular dice used to be the tools math teachers used to teach about bell curves and how some are relatively flat and others very steep.

That's nice. We have computers now. Computers can simulate dice rolls too, ya know. It's pretty cool. I wrote a program on my calculator to do it once. Not every mathematician uses dice rolls, but every mathematician (and by extension physicist) uses sin curves and exponential growth.

I would have assumed that someone who can wrap their mind around the concept of a bell curve wouldn't have any trouble with exponential growth, but then you came along. Of course, you're insane, so that helps.

Of course, Texas Instruments and Hewlett Packard have made very successful efforts to get schools to require graphing calculators so you probably wouldn't know that.

I spent most of my time in math class figuring out how to do things on my calculator that we weren't supposed to use our calculator for yet (which turned out to be EVERYTHING). It made homework a breeze. Maybe if you learned to use a graphing calculator sin curves wouldn't confuse you so much? But yeah, I'm not going to argue that a graphing calculator isn't severe overkill for basic algebra.

(We actually did the dice thing too)

If such a progression was co-equal sections, then the difference between 1-2 or 20-21, would be the same.

Do you therefore believe the difference between Lanfear and Cyndane is the same as Morgase and Sorilea?

Cmon, Sodas gets it and you completely ignored him.

Sodas feel free to ignore this part: Though Morgase would probably actually be a 0+, and Sorelia a 1, it doesn't seem right to call someone that can channel even a little bit a 0 though. Unless RJ used a ceiling function thing. (where you round up any decimal to the next integer)

[Weird Harold]

If such a progression was co-equal sections, then the difference between 1-2 or 20-21, would be the same.

Do you therefore believe the difference between Lanfear and Cyndane is the same as Morgase and Sorilea?

Yep the difference between 20 and 21 is the same as bewtween 1-2, just as the difference between first grade to second grade and the difference between HS Senior and College Freshman is one year of schooling.

Lanfear to Cyndane didn't change her "Grade" unless there was a vacant grade between Lanfear and Greandal -- it's a case where "literary license" overrides "general guidlelines."

Morgase and Sorilea are generally considered to be Grade 1 and Grade 2 respectively, or both are considered to be Grade 1 but their difference in power is probably more than Cyndane lost in an analog comparison.

[Weird Harold]

But to actually address your question (novel concept I know) dice are random, and I might not want my Aes Sedai's power level to be randomly assigned. Kinda sucks when I roll a (metaphoric)20 when introducing some random trivial character.

Actually, I suspect that is exactly why Alivia and Sharina are as strong as they are. :D I think Nyneave was originally intended to be the one to "help Rand Die."

Why do you assume RJ would randomly assign power levels to all Aes Sedai? Especially the ones important enough to spend time writing about?

If you want random and 21 point scale he could just use a dart board. Bulls eye could be Sharina Melloy.

For "spear-carrier" level characters, there is no reason NOT to randomly determine their strength -- RJ could always re-roll if he didn't like the result because the Channeling population isn't truly random -- RJ specifically placed the main characters on the scale where they had the relative Power relationships he wanted them to have.

That's nice. We have computers now. Computers can simulate dice rolls too, ya know. It's pretty cool. I wrote a program on my calculator to do it once. Not every mathematician uses dice rolls, but every mathematician (and by extension physicist) uses sin curves and exponential growth.

I think everyone who had a programmable calculator with a Random() key has programmed a dice simulation. My firsst Programmable calculator was TI-99 with six programmable function keys, and I was heavily into AD&D at the time - so I programmed all six function key to simulate the dice combinations used in AD&D -- It's not difficult to generate numbers, but it is difficult to match the shape of a bell curve actually generate by rolling 3d6 a thousand times.


Cmon, Sodas gets it and you completely ignored him.

I didn't "ignore him" I just missed the post. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

...but every mathematician (and by extension physicist) uses sin curves and exponential growth.

The question is, how many AUTHORS use sine curves and exponential growth -- we're talking about an author's reference tool, not a mathematics or physics thesis.

I know it offends your sensibilities to think that RJ used a an old tried and true method of creating a random background population but it is a process he would have known and used both in his miltary background and physics background and could apply to HIS NEEDS AS AN AUTHOR.

[Neilbert]

Actually, I suspect that is exactly why Alivia and Sharina are as strong as they are. I think Nyneave was originally intended to be the one to "help Rand Die."

RJ said he had Cadsuane and Alivia planned from the beginning. Sharina is obviously as strong as she is for plot reasons. She can't be the super intimidating super competent novice that convinces Aes Sedai that maybe opening the novice books is a good idea if she isn't super strong. Also she was in Nyaneve's Accepted test, so it's fairly obvious RJ put some thought into her pretty early in the game.

For "spear-carrier" level characters, there is no reason NOT to randomly determine their strength -- RJ could always re-roll if he didn't like the result because the Channeling population isn't truly random -- RJ specifically placed the main characters on the scale where they had the relative Power relationships he wanted them to have.

But when we are talking about fairly minor characters that are actually written about it doesn't make sense to randomly assign their strength. When RJ introduces an Aes Sedai, he might want them to defer to certain other Aes Sedai, while being strong enough to be able to present themselves to the conversation, especially if the new chick is being introduced in a scene with other Aes Sedai.

Yeah, sure, he could reroll every time he gets something that doesn't work. Or he could just say "I need new girl to be X weaker than Persons A B and C".

I really can't see randomly assigning strength as a good go to solution.

And for the truly minor characters? There's no reason to determine their strength at all if they are never seen to defer to anybody or channel.

[hippie-joe]

Also, Moghedian has said, more than once, that she has the Healing ability of a toad. She would not be able to Heal a Stilling. Move on.

ok, this is the first time i came in this thread, and i couldn't make it past this post. i had to mention this...

on top of her healing ability being that of a toad. do you really think the ladies at saladar would have allowed her to be around when one of the 3 ppl who were stilled/gentled were healed?

also, cyndane while her strength isn't what it was when she was lanfear, it's still not weak. suian was strong b4 and is weak after.

it says in
"what interest can you find in them when you destroy anything that might make them interesting?" cyndane demanded, striding arrogantly across the floor. she held herself very straight, striving for every hair of height. "do you know that sammeal is dead?"

Graendal kept her own face smooth, with a little effort. she had supposed this girl some friend of the dark whom moghedien had picked up to run errands, perhaps a noble who thought her title counted, but now that she was up close...the girl was stronger in the one power than she herself! even in her own age that had been uncommon among men, and very rare indeed among women. on the instant, on instinct, she changed her intention to deny any contact with sammael.
btw that would be page 291, i had to look it up in the book and type it from there...

that was when she and mogh went to Graendal to have her go to morridin.

so all that being said i think the only thing that happen is that lanfear had an ever present angreal or saangreal that stayed with her body in finnland when she was sent to cyndane, and cyndane's power is what her original power was unaided.

E: if on the off chance she was stilled she would have to have been healed by a man to give her that kind of strength back, and that is highly unlikely. they didn't know of that in the AoL, the only way would be for flinn to teach a man at the BT while he was learning, and that man to be a forsaken or a dark friend who met a forsaken, which is even more unlikely.

i wouldn't have caught this if i hadn't read it not all that long ago.

and sorry if this has been mentioned already, like i said above, i just couldn't get all the way through to the end, i had to get it out:rolleyes:

[hippie-joe]

The question is, how many AUTHORS use sine curves and exponential growth -- we're talking about an author's reference tool, not a mathematics or physics thesis.

I know it offends your sensibilities to think that RJ used a an old tried and true method of creating a random background population but it is a process he would have known and used both in his miltary background and physics background and could apply to HIS NEEDS AS AN AUTHOR.

this struck me as funny.

i was gonna mention his background in physics, but i didn't have too.

the question is not, "how many AUTHORS use sine curves and exponential growth?" it is, rather, would an author who was previously in the profession of physics, use something he was formiliar with?

see, that's the real question...

and after reading through this whole thread i'm glad i didn't get side tracked b4 posting my previous post, and i hope it shed a little light on the original idea of this thread ;) hehehe

[Tree Brother]

Regarding why the doorway melted: First, we know that two similar ter'angreal in proximaty cause problems. Second, Morraine started channelling before pushing Lanfear through the doorway with herself.

I think the most likely reason the doorway was destroyed, was that eather using the angreal (Lanfear) while passing through the ter'angreal short circuited it somehow, or Morraine was carring some other ter'angreal that interferred with the workings of the dorrway. I think the former is more likely. The "powered" angreal, passing through doorway te'rangreal caused the destruction.

[Weird Harold]

the question is not, "how many AUTHORS use sine curves and exponential growth?" it is, rather, would an author who was previously in the profession of physics, use something he was formiliar with?

see, that's the real question...

IF RJ's background was JUST physics, you guys would have a point, but he also had a military background (and military school education) so I think he would choose the best K.I.S.S fit from all of the methods he was familar with.

[Weird Harold]

I think the most likely reason the doorway was destroyed, was that eather using the angreal (Lanfear) while passing through the ter'angreal short circuited it somehow, or Morraine was carring some other ter'angreal that interferred with the workings of the dorrway. I think the former is more likely. The "powered" angreal, passing through doorway te'rangreal caused the destruction.

That's a very good point and not one I've seen anyone make before. Moiraine did have an Angreal of her own and there was no shortage of ter'angreal to choose from.

Ivory Bracelet
A female angreal in the form of a small dark ivory bracelet in the shape of an acrobat bent around backwards so his wrists are tied to his ankles.

Ivory Figurine
A female angreal in the form of an age-darkened ivory figurine of a woman in flowing robes. It is in the possession of Moiraine and is of average strength.

Both of those Angreal went through the doorway with Lanfear and Moiraine and at least one was in use -- So Moiriane would have been incredibly stupid to not be using hers, too.

[Ishara]

I may be forgetting something simple here, but it makes me wonder now why Moiraine left the first angreal there for lanfear to find...it's not as if Lanfear needed the extra strength in a battle against Moiraine - she was already much stronger. So, Moiraine needed Lanfear to be even stronger, even with the help of Moiraine's own angreal? But why? Maybe the more they both channeled through the angreals caused the door to melt, which was somehitng Moiraine foresaw, or saw needed to happen?

Just throwing ideas out there.

I'm not convinced that it was the channeling alone that caused the malfunction, but the addition of the angrealsmight have made the difference...

[Crispin's Crispian]

I may be forgetting something simple here, but it makes me wonder now why Moiraine left the first angreal there for lanfear to find...it's not as if Lanfear needed the extra strength in a battle against Moiraine - she was already much stronger. So, Moiraine needed Lanfear to be even stronger, even with the help of Moiraine's own angreal? But why? Maybe the more they both channeled through the angreals caused the door to melt, which was somehitng Moiraine foresaw, or saw needed to happen?


Maybe without the angreal, Lanfear wouldn't have challenged Rand or wouldn't have stood there long enough for Moiraine to tackle her. In one of her visions, Lanfear had Rand on a leash or something. Maybe the angreal made her overconfident (or confident enough) to challenge Rand then and there.

Or she just knew that she had to lay it down there in order for the vision she wanted to come true to come true.

[Enigma]

Moiraine has been trying to follow prophecy for years. It could be that her vision showed Lanfear with the angreal hence Moiraine figured she has to have the angreal for events to play out they way she wanted.

She could have rationalised it that Lanfear had to have an advantage over Rand in order for her to feel safe in torturing him. If she had only her own strenght v Rand's strenght & his angreal Lanfear may not have felt safe and used some deadly Aol weave just to kill Rand.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Perhaps, if she hadn't had that angreal, Lanfear would have resorted to deadly force just a bit sooner. In that case, she would have killed Egwene and Aviendha, and then Rand too.

[hippie-joe]

IF RJ's background was JUST physics, you guys would have a point, but he also had a military background (and military school education) so I think he would choose the best K.I.S.S fit from all of the methods he was familar with.

you have a possibility there, but wasn't his time in physics after his military carreer? that seems to be how i remember it, either way you would think he would use something he felt as familiar. thats what i would do... he very well have decided to KISS, but it's really all speculation, and maybe for him KISS was using what ever it was that was mentioned previously. i don't really recall what it was and don't really care. to me it is less than irrelevant

[hippie-joe]

at any rate i think it highly unlikely that the doorframe caused lanfear to be stilled, and even more unlikely that the stilling was healed by a women, that is if she was stilled by the doorway at all

[Sodas]

I don't think Moiraine was really thinking about buying time for herself. Afterall, she did try to jump Lanfear from the beginning, but failed. It was on her second attempt, when Lanfear was convinced she already delt with Moiraine and Co, that Moiraine was able to jump into Lanfear successfully.

I think one other interesting thing is that Moiraine's bond was cut with Lan. We know that just entering Finnland doesn't sever the bond. And we know that Moiraine didn't die when entering Finnland. So how else can one explain the severing of the Bond?

[GonzoTheGreat]

I think one other interesting thing is that Moiraine's bond was cut with Lan. We know that just entering Finnland doesn't sever the bond. And we know that Moiraine didn't die when entering Finnland. So how else can one explain the severing of the Bond?By cutting the whole route which linked her with Lan?
The desctruction of the doorway may have been enough to cut the link.
Sure, it could have been rerouted via either the Tear doorway or the Tower of Ghenjei, but apparently that didn't happen.

Suddenly makes me wonder whether in all the lives that Verin lived during the TGH Portal Stone adventure she could still feel the bond with Ihvon or not. I don't think we'll get an answer to that one, though.

[Terez]

Suddenly makes me wonder whether in all the lives that Verin lived during the TGH Portal Stone adventure she could still feel the bond with Ihvon or not. I don't think we'll get an answer to that one, though.
Sure you will - Ihvon is bonded to Alanna, not Verin, so there is your answer. Of course, you were probably wondering if she could feel her bond to Tomas, but that's just a detail...

[GonzoTheGreat]

All those Teletubbies look the same to me.

[Terez]

Watch out for the purple one. ;)

[Weird Harold]

I think one other interesting thing is that Moiraine's bond was cut with Lan. We know that just entering Finnland doesn't sever the bond. And we know that Moiraine didn't die when entering Finnland. So how else can one explain the severing of the Bond?

Fire up your bunsen burner or welding torch and pass a polyester thread through the flame. You might get an idea of why the warder bond was severed. :D

That's a purely specualtive answer, but there was a whole lot of "that isn't supposed to happen" going on that day and a major part was the melting/burning of the Doorway -- burning through a thread passing through a burning doorway that isn't supposed to burning in the first place is certainly possible.

[Weird Harold]

Watch out for the purple one. ;)
Teletubby or dinosaur? I can probably handle the teletubby, but that purple dinosaur makes me retch uncontrollably

[Terez]

I haven't actually watched Teletubbies, but I hear the purple one is gay. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, of course, but it might be useful info for Gonzo. :D

[Crispin's Crispian]

I haven't actually watched Teletubbies, but I hear the purple one is gay. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, of course, but it might be useful info for Gonzo. :D
Right around the time Jerry Falwell was spouting that crap, my brother did his master's thesis on the psychology of homosexuality and conservative Christianity. *

For his graduation gift, I got him a Tinky-Winky plushie.





*I need to ask him for a copy. I never read it, and I still don't know what his conclusions were.

[Terez]

Let me know if you get it, cause I'd like to read it. :D

Oh, and Barney is gay too...

[Weird Harold]

I haven't actually watched Teletubbies, ...

I watched like the first episode because I had a granddaughter the age they are purportedly aimed at, but I found that they grossly underestimate the intelligence of children. Even for the six-months to a year-old age group they're aimed at, they're simpleminded and boring. :rolleyes:

[hippie-joe]

i think what they are really up to is brain washing, or maybe hypnotism. lol

no i think bright color stimulation increases brain activity and function in growing minds. hence the multi-colored, well everything baby related really...

[Weird Harold]

no i think bright color stimulation increases brain activity and function in growing minds. hence the multi-colored, well everything baby related really...

True, but IIRC, Teletubbies is aimed at pre-verbal toddlers (6 to 12 months) and I can't recall ever meeting a "toddler" who was completely pre-verbal.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I haven't actually watched Teletubbies, but I hear the purple one is gay. Which isn't in itself a bad thing, of course, but it might be useful info for Gonzo. :DOh, the nice mr Falwell had informed me of that already. I must admit that I hadn't noticed it before, but that might be because I avoided watching them as much as possible.

Teletubbies cured me of solipsism. At first sight, the idea that all of existence is a figment of my imagination might be appealing, but the idea that I came up with the Teletubbies is appalling. So I have to reject solipsism.

[Sodas]

By cutting the whole route which linked her with Lan?
The desctruction of the doorway may have been enough to cut the link.
Sure, it could have been rerouted via either the Tear doorway or the Tower of Ghenjei, but apparently that didn't happen.

You will have to explain why you think the bond is some sort of physical connection (call it a route or whatever you want). The Bond, as I understand it, is metaphysical in nature. For example, that part of the bond that render's emotions returns upon the Healing of Stilling, even though the Warder is dead. You can't have a route to a dead corpse.

With the sound of his boots behind her, she managed to make it around the corner into the crossing hallway before the dam burst and she sank to her knees weeping piteously. She knew what it was, now. Alric, her Warder. Her dead Warder, murdered when Elaida deposed her. She could lie— the Three Oaths were still gone— but some part of her bond to Alric, a bond flesh to flesh and mind to mind, had been resurrected. The pain of his death, the pain first masked by the shock of what Elaida intended and then buried by stilling, that pain filled her to the brim. Huddled against the wall, bawling, she was only glad Gareth was not seeing this.

[hippie-joe]

True, but IIRC, Teletubbies is aimed at pre-verbal toddlers (6 to 12 months) and I can't recall ever meeting a "toddler" who was completely pre-verbal.

also true but that doesn't qualify their minds as not growing, i didn't mention verbal skills.
though to mention them now... talking to babies in that sing song-y high picth voice does help them to develope verbal skills, can't say i understand that, but i saw it on a commercial once, and am inclined to believe it.

[Weird Harold]

...talking to babies in that sing song-y high picth voice does help them to develope verbal skills, ...

I so want to punch out people who talk "baby-talk" to babies. :mad: Talking baby-talk to infants leads to children who talk baby-talk and have trouble learning decent vocabulary and pronunciation.

Talking to infants does lead to better verbal skills -- even talking to them before birth apparently helps language development -- but children learn to talk by listening and if all they hear is high-pitched sing-song nonsense, then that's what they learn to speak.

[Sodas]

Wtf has that to do with the subject at hand?

[Terez]

About as much as Teletubbies and Barney.

[GonzoTheGreat]

All right, let's get back to where I sort of sidetracked this. Did Tomas still feel his AS (Verin) when she was going through all those alternative lives?
If an AS were to be inside a vacuole that went adrift, would her Warder still be bonded to her if he were outside that vacuole?

[Terez]

I'd imagine that Verin masked the bond when she left Tomas. It would explain a lot of things.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Oh, she definitely masked it. Otherwise he would have followed. But I'm not sure she could manage to keep on masking it while going through the weirdness of Rand's Accepted Test. And even if it is masked, the Warder still knows the AS is alive. Whether or not that sense continues to work when one but not the other of the pair is passing through other dimensions is not obviously clear to me.

[Terez]

Oh, she definitely masked it. Otherwise he would have followed. But I'm not sure she could manage to keep on masking it while going through the weirdness of Rand's Accepted Test. Well, there's no real reason to believe she couldn't. When Aviendha managed it, it seemed like something that only had to be done or undone, rather than something that required maintenance.

And even if it is masked, the Warder still knows the AS is alive. Whether or not that sense continues to work when one but not the other of the pair is passing through other dimensions is not obviously clear to me. There doesn't seem to be any indication that Lan had a problem when Moiraine went through the Aelfinn doorway - if he had, you'd think he wouldn't have been so sure that she was dead when she went through the Eelfinn doorway. So my guess is that she cut the bond in a way that would transfer it to Myrelle as if she had died. Lacking more details to work with, that seems to be the most logical scenario.

The fact that Tomas knows Verin is alive doesn't seem to have any particularly profound implications.

[GonzoTheGreat]

In a certain, very real, way, the doorway through which Moiraine went in Tear was still open. But the one in Cairhien was suddenly slammed shut, and that's a big difference.

Alternatively: it was necessary for plot related reasons that the bond be broken, so that's what happened. Do you prefer that explanation? :p

[Terez]

It works, of course. :)