testing... testing...1,2... ter'angreal

[hippie-joe]

this is a quote from another thread that spured this idea...

i decided i wanted this to have it's own thread sense it was a pretty young thread that the quote came from, and thus the idea that followed. plus it was more, less off topic.

i edited it slightly, omitting a sentence that was irrelevent to this line of thought.


Another possibility is that confining the DO to his prison again will remove instantly all effects of the True Power within creation. (it would likely kill all Shadowspawn too, and remove the Blight - leaving either a wasteland or returning to its previous states if, as many theorize from hints in EOTW (the vision of the Seven Towers as they were) and later the receeding, the Blight is nothing but a twisting of reality that will disappear with Shai'tan).

that is an interesting thought... if you think about it, the ter'angreal that tests girls for accepted showed egwene as being amrylin seat, then she became just that.

and like wise when nynaeve went through, it had her in a pasture in malkier with lan walking up mentioning, a son, i believe.

my theory is that that ter'angreal actually reveals different times on a linear time line, well, kinda. that particular arch reveals to them the future that the pattern intends for them.

heres the kicker, i believe it does more than just show them a glimpse. i believe it actually sends them physically and if they stayed the future would end up quite differently. it would be a true test of patients. i mean, if it's gonna end up that way anyways, and that would be a good test for an up and coming sister...

the other archways could send them to one of the alternate realities that we get a glimpse of when rand takes the group to toman head via portal stone.

it could be similar to the arches at rhuidean that show the past, or maybe even shows what role your sole may have played in that life. IIRC rand actually sees through the eyes of a person that was there, not sure on that.

E:but to tie in the quote, that may be very posible if this theory pans out. it would also make mins viewing of him both past and future when she mentioned the seven towers she sees over his head. which plays into the theme that RJ enjoys, the past is the future... *shrugs*

so it's kind of a half baked idea, not quite ready to serve, but what the hell, it won't give you salmonella...:rolleyes:
what do y'all think?

[Neilbert]

*Shrug* I don't know, though one thing I do find incredibly unlikely is Shadowspawn just disappearing because the Dark One got sealed. They are a self perpetuating thing as of now, and I suspect the only way they will be gotten rid of is the hard way.

But the blight? Yeah, that goes with Shai'tan. Maybe quickly? Maybe slowly? Maybe instantly? But it goes.

Another problem: If Nynaeve decides to abandon the "real" world and move to fantasy happy land with Lan, and Nynaeve is instrumental in the "real" world in the fight against the Dark One, and as a result of Nynaeve's absence the Dark One is freed, then the Dark One is freed in Nynaeves new little happy world and boy howdy does it suck to be her (and everyone else).

[hippie-joe]

*Shrug* I don't know, though one thing I do find incredibly unlikely is Shadowspawn just disappearing because the Dark One got sealed. They are a self perpetuating thing as of now, and I suspect the only way they will be gotten rid of is the hard way.

But the blight? Yeah, that goes with Shai'tan. Maybe quickly? Maybe slowly? Maybe instantly? But it goes.

Another problem: If Nynaeve decides to abandon the "real" world and move to fantasy happy land with Lan, and Nynaeve is instrumental in the "real" world in the fight against the Dark One, and as a result of Nynaeve's absence the Dark One is freed, then the Dark One is freed in Nynaeves new little happy world and boy howdy does it suck to be her (and everyone else).

i agree with your assumption about shadow spawn i just put it in to show what spurred my thought

i also agree with the comment about the possible problems if she had stayed, but we all read how she didn't stay... my thought is that it will eventually end up the way she saw it, but when she saw it she was not at that point in her life to accept it as real, and the world was not at the point where it really was real or even may end up that way. she had a lot to do and go through to get to that point, infact she still has a lot to do.

the idea is that it shows what is supposed to happen if the wheel spins everything out the way it should be. in other words the ter'angreal gives them an option to jump ahead, with unknown consequences to the world that 'is' in the day that they walked through, and what will happen to that possible outcome that they jumped to, if they stay.

the point, then, of the ter'angreal is, which is why it has been used for the accepted test for as long as anyone can know, to display patients. the patients to wait for the good things that will come in life instead of just jumping straight to them.

i can't really know if this is so, but it makes logical sense. well, it does to me anyways.:D

[Weird Harold]

the idea is that it shows what is supposed to happen if the wheel spins everything out the way it should be. in other words the ter'angreal gives them an option to jump ahead, with unknown consequences to the world that 'is' in the day that they walked through, and what will happen to that possible outcome that they jumped to, if they stay.

I think the flaw in your thinking is that the testing ter'angreal (and probably the triple arch ter'angreal the Wise Ones use) are related to T'A'R -- as indicated by the interference or the Twisted Ring ter'angreal being inthe same room when Egwene took her accepted test.

Foretellings and, (per RJ,) Min's Visons always come true while Dreams and T'A'R only show possibilities. Since the testing ter'angreal is apparently related to Dreaming rather than Foretellings, what it shows would therfore be possibilities rather than certainties.

[hippie-joe]

I think the flaw in your thinking is that the testing ter'angreal (and probably the triple arch ter'angreal the Wise Ones use) are related to T'A'R -- as indicated by the interference or the Twisted Ring ter'angreal being inthe same room when Egwene took her accepted test.

Foretellings and, (per RJ,) Min's Visons always come true while Dreams and T'A'R only show possibilities. Since the testing ter'angreal is apparently related to Dreaming rather than Foretellings, what it shows would therfore be possibilities rather than certainties.

you may be right, but it has been talked about b4 that ter'angreal generally don't play nice together (unless ofcourse they were a combat suit or something of the like.) so like i say you may be right, but i need hard evidence, like RJ stating that the testing ter'angreal is related to T'A'R, i think it more likely they are related to the protal stones, which actually take you there, as opposed to just foretelling. from what we know, it showed egwene as Amrylin seat (granted it showed her as such way down the line) and she has fulfilled that...

so provide that RJ quote or other hard evidence and i'll reconsider.;)

[Weird Harold]

so provide that RJ quote or other hard evidence and i'll reconsider.;)

The evidence is in Chapeter 23 but there is other evidence in Egwene's testing, which is all in Ch 22, that disproves the ter'angreal showing what what must happen -- such as revealing Elaida as Black Ajah in the testing, although we positvely know that Elaida is just stupid, egotistical, and easily manipulated by Alviarin, but not Black Ajah herself.

"Who knows what happens to those who do not come out of a ter'angreal?" Alanna said as she joined them. The Green sister was known for her temper and her sense of humor, and some said she could flash from one to the other and back again before you could blink, but the look she gave Egwene was almost diffident. "Child, I should have stopped this when I had the chance, when I first noticed that – reverberation. It came back. That is what happened. It came back a thousandfold. Ten thousand. The ter'angreal almost seemed to be trying to shut off the flow from saidar – or melt itself through the floor. You have my apologies, though words are not enough. Not for what almost happened to you. I say this, and by the First Oath you know it is true. To show my feelings, I will ask the Mother to let me share your time in the kitchens. And, yes, your visit to Sheriam, too. Had I done as I should, you would not have been in danger of your life, and I will atone for it."

...

"It was not your fault, Alanna Sedai," Egwene said. Why is Alanna doing this? Unless maybe to convince me she didn't have anything to do with whatever went wrong. And maybe so she can keep an eye on me all the time. ...

"Had I done as I should," Alanna maintained, "it would never have happened. The only time I have ever seen anything like it was once years ago when we tried to use a ter'angreal in the same room with another that may have been in some way related to it. It is extremely rare to find two such as that. The pair of them melted, and every sister within a hundred paces had such a headache for a week that she couldn't channel a spark. What's the matter, child?"

Egwene's hand had tightened around her pouch till the twisted stone ring impressed itself on her palm through the thick cloth. Was it warm? Light, I did it myself. "Nothing, Alanna Sedai. Aes Sedai, you did nothing wrong. You have no reason to share my punishments. None at all. None!"

That is about as explicit an explanation you're going to get from the books on how any ter'angreal works.

ETA: perhaps the symptoms described when the "reverberation" returned might be a clue to what happened to the Doorway to the *Finn when Lanfear and Moiraine went through together? Perhaps the proximity to all of the Rhudiean Cache causes a feedback loop?

[Neilbert]

IIRC She also had the ageless look from "years of use of Saidar" but hadn't sworn the Three Oaths.

It's like they use the future like a DM might use a guide to provide context for the adventure without having to create it from scratch.

[Weird Harold]

It's like they use the future like a DM might use a guide to provide context for the adventure without having to create it from scratch.

I think the testing ter'angreal is more like a very Talented Dreamer who can direct her Dreams to an "area of interest" before letting them run their course. It's part mind reader and part Dream programmer.

[hippie-joe]

IIRC She also had the ageless look from "years of use of Saidar" but hadn't sworn the Three Oaths.

It's like they use the future like a DM might use a guide to provide context for the adventure without having to create it from scratch.

first off whats a DM?

second, we've all learned that it's the 3 oaths that cause the ageless face... but you're right about her not having sworn the 3oaths.

if she was discribed as having an ageless face then perhaps WH is right, as this would not be know to, well, anyone at this point.

and maybe my assumption about the ageless face being assosiated with the 3 oaths is off... hmm

[Neilbert]

Might be GM, I'm really not up on my terminology.

It's the guy who runs the game in Dungeons and Dragons. He might read a book that tells him about the setting that he is going to use, and might use a reference book for monsters and architecture and things like that, but any details that are important to his story he will not hesitate to change.

Weird Harold's explanation is probably close to the truth.

if she was discribed as having an ageless face then perhaps WH is right, as this would not be know to, well, anyone at this point.

The way I recall it she had the ageless face and hadn't sworn the oaths, which makes sense, because it would be impossible for Egwene to conceive of herself as Amyrlin without the ageless face, not having it just creates too many complications.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Might be GM, I'm really not up on my terminology.From what I remember, DM stands for Dungeon Master. But I've only played D&D a few times, so I'm not too sure either.
Of course, it is possible (easy) to look it up, but apparently we all think that would be against the rules in this case.

The way I recall it she had the ageless face and hadn't sworn the oaths, which makes sense, because it would be impossible for Egwene to conceive of herself as Amyrlin without the ageless face, not having it just creates too many complications.Yep, she did have the ageless face without having sworn the Oaths.
TDR, The Price of the Ring, Chapter 22

Egwene stared into the standing mirror, and was not sure whether she was more surprised by the ageless smoothness of her face or the striped stole that hung around her neck. The stole of the Amyrlin Seat.
...
"More than anyone suspects," Egwene said. "I never held the Oath Rod, Beldeine." Beldeine's gasp followed her from the room.

[Weird Harold]

first off whats a DM?

DM == Dungeaon Master; the Dungeons and Dragon's specific term for a GM == Game Master or "War Games Referee."

All are terms for the person who manges a role playing game and designs the scenarios the players are put into.


and maybe my assumption about the ageless face being assosiated with the 3 oaths is off... hmm

It's not an assumption -- somewhere in Terez' signature link shoul dbe RJ's comment that it is the cunmulative effect of three bindings that causes the "ageless look" -- the description of the sensations of taking the Oath (from Moiraine's POV in New Spring, and from the BA Hunters in the main series) suggest why the look develops:

Moiraine closed her hands around the Rod. It felt like glass, only somehow smoother. "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will speak no word that is not true." The Oath settled on her, and suddenly the air seemed to press harder against her skin. Red is white, she thought. Up is down. She could still think a lie, but her tongue would nor work to utter it now. "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will make no weapon for one man to kill another." The pressure grew abruptly; it felt as though she had been sewn into an invisible garment, much too tight, that molded her from the crown of her head to the soles of her feet. To her chagrin, sweat popped out on her forehead, yet she managed to keep her face calm. "Under the Light and by my hope of salvation and rebirth, I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or another sister." That garment shrank to still greater snugness, and she breathed heavily through her nose, clamping her jaws to keep it from becoming a gasp. Invisible and utterly flexible, yet oh, so tight! This feeling that her flesh was being compressed would fade, but not entirely for a whole year. Light! She wondered how Elaida had enjoyed taking that last oath, with its mention of Warders. The Three Oaths remained unchanged whatever Ajah you intended to join. Thinking of that helped, a little.

[hippie-joe]

It's not an assumption -- somewhere in Terez' signature link shoul dbe RJ's comment that it is the cunmulative effect of three bindings that causes the "ageless look" -- the description of the sensations of taking the Oath (from Moiraine's POV in New Spring, and from the BA Hunters in the main series) suggest why the look develops

see, i had a feeling about that, but i wasn't sure if i had just misinterpreted something, right then.

in which case like i had stated b4, you were prolly right that it is related to dreaming, sense noone is entirely certain in that would that the ageless face comes from the oaths. that is to say that they really can't know for sure, most think it's related to extensive use of the OP.

as far as DM or GM goes... no wonder i didn't have the faintest clue as to what that was. i was never that big of a nerd, i had stoner friends try to get me into it but the one time i tried it, i didn't get into it.

back when i was a life guard at the public pool there were the real fanatics, they would play like live action role playing or what ever at the park by the pool, it was always funny watching those odd odd folks running around in full get-up waiving around nerf bats and those gladiator staff things that look like enormous Q-tips, we always made fun of them...

[GonzoTheGreat]

in which case like i had stated b4, you were prolly right that it is related to dreaming, sense noone is entirely certain in that would that the ageless face comes from the oaths. that is to say that they really can't know for sure, most think it's related to extensive use of the OP.If that were the case, then this feature would also be seen on Wise Ones, Windfinders and damane. But none of them have the ageless face, even though at least the last two groups do channel at least as much as AS do.

[Weird Harold]

in which case like i had stated b4, you were prolly right that it is related to dreaming, sense noone is entirely certain in that would that the ageless face comes from the oaths. that is to say that they really can't know for sure, most think it's related to extensive use of the OP.

If that were the case, then this feature would also be seen on Wise Ones, Windfinders and damane. But none of them have the ageless face, even though at least the last two groups do channel at least as much as AS do.

We have to distinguish between what the characters know and what the readers know here. At the time Egwene tested for Accepted, none of the characters knew that the Ageless look is caused by the Oath Rod instead of Channeling. The readers don't know much more at that point either but have a few clues, such as the Forsaken don't have the Ageless look.

In hindsight, the readers have enough information to separate the mix of truth and error in Egwne's accepted testing. I'm not sure the characters have completely figured it out, though. Some of them have most of the drawbacks to the Oath Rod figured out by now, but the majority of the characters either don't know or don't believe.

[Ozymandias]

But the blight? Yeah, that goes with Shai'tan. Maybe quickly? Maybe slowly? Maybe instantly? But it goes.


Why would it? We know, at best, that the Dark One is only going to be restored to the state he was in at the time of the Breaking; imprisoned but not totally. The Blight existed and thrived while the Dark One was imprisoned; if we can't stopper him up any more fully than he was when we did it 3000 years ago, why should we expect the effects to be more lasting?

The Blight may retreat, as we know its hundred of miles further south now than it was 2500 years ago, and become more manageable, but I doubt it disappears.

[Neilbert]

if we can't stopper him up any more fully than he was when we did it 3000 years ago, why should we expect the effects to be more lasting?

That's a nice assumption you made about what I said to completely and totally jackass it around. Congrats?

[Weird Harold]

Why would it? We know, at best, that the Dark One is only going to be restored to the state he was in at the time of the Breaking; imprisoned but not totally. ...

Herid Fel's discussion with Rand is a strong hint that Your idea of "at best" is far short of the mark -- there'd ne no real point in telling the story of this particular "last battle" if Rand isn't the one to repair the DO's Prison "as well as the Creator made it"



"What do you mean it can’t be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

"Why? Maybe the next time they’ll drill through the patch. Maybe that’s how they could do it the last time – drill into what the Creator made, I mean – maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just don’t know."

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One’s prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if theycalled it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole – an Age, at least – that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder. . ." He peered at his notes and scratched his head, then seemed startled to find he used the hand holding the pen. There was a smudge of ink in his hair. "Any Age where seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again." Sticking his pipe back between his teeth, he tried to make another note without dipping the pen.

"Unless the Dark One breaks free," Rand said quietly. "To break the Wheel of Time, and remake Time and the world in his own image."

Maybe Rand won't instantaneously restore the Prison to the way the Creator made it, but the whole series is pretty much pointless unless he's responsible for the DO being completely shut away, and when the DO is completely shut away, the Blight dies and eventually all traces of it will disappear.

I can't predict just how the demise of the Blight will be prtrayed, but the effect of Ran'ds relatively minor victory at tEotW certainly suggests that it will be dramatic and umistakeable.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It may be that the DO can draw power from the Blight. He's also the one who is stuffing power into it, to make it grow, after all. And the Blight as a sort of shadowy piggybank does have a certain appeal, don't you think?

[hippie-joe]

Maybe Rand won't instantaneously restore the Prison to the way the Creator made it, but the whole series is pretty much pointless unless he's responsible for the DO being completely shut away, and when the DO is completely shut away, the Blight dies and eventually all traces of it will disappear.

oh wouldn't that be an ironic twist ending, the whole story would be pointless he would have made this fantasticaly written series which developed a huge fan base, then dies and passes it on to some poor sap that has to tell the bad news and ends up taking the brunt end of all the pissed off fans. lol

that would be tragically comic