Musings on the Two Towers

[GonzoTheGreat]

I know, I'm gonna regret using this title. But I haven't come up with an alternative that I would not regret, so I may as well go with a cute one.

First, some general remarks on LoC, The First Message:
-Gawyn's tendency to believe the first rumor he hears without questioning any of the details at all is just as annoying as it was any of the previous times I read it.
-Morgase's tendency to blame Tallanvor for being young yet sensible hasn't gotten any more endearing either.
LoC, The First Message, Prologue

Something blurred in the mirror, and he turned, not too quickly. He had to remember who he was, and make sure others remembered. There still was no door, but a Myrddraal shared the room with them. Neither thing was strange in this place, but the Myrddraal stood taller than any Osan’gar had seen before.How did Aran'gar know that?
He might've been stuffed into a very small body, after all. Then, if all the furniture had been on scale for him, a normal sized Myrddraal would have seemed to be exceptionally large.

Of course, he was right in this case, but his certainty was not warranted.

[Terez]

Well, he hadn't just been to the Escher museum, so perhaps he can be forgiven for not having thought of that? :)

[GonzoTheGreat]

He seemed to know that he was in a vacuole, which is a decidedly Escheresque (non-standard) situation.

[Terez]

Well, that's different. It's one of the things he was trained to know, and the knowledge doesn't necessarily transfer to simple differences in dimension.

I certainly wouldn't have thought of it, and I did just go to that museum...

[Davian93]

Perhaps he was talking to Sauron...

[Terez]

Wat?

[Davian93]

Wat?

Or maybe Saruman...

[Neilbert]

How did Aran'gar know that?

That he was in the same "room" as a myrdraal? (I'm not sure if this is what you are asking)

It was the blur in the mirror. Myrdraal appear blurry and washed out in mirrors, probably for the same reason their cloaks stand still.

[GonzoTheGreat]

No, that's not what I was asking. Sorry for not being clear about it.

I wondered how he knew that this particular Myrddraal was taller than any he'd seen before, when he himself was in a situation (an entirely new body, with its own sensory apparatus) where all his perceptions were off compared to what he was used to.

[Terez]

Pay attention in chapters 1-5. You might learn something about Lews Therin. :D

[Neilbert]

I wondered how he knew that this particular Myrddraal was taller than any he'd seen before, when he himself was in a situation (an entirely new body, with its own sensory apparatus) where all his perceptions were off compared to what he was used to.

I get what you are saying, and it makes sense.

The only thing I have to say is that at some point you are either super tiny or this incredibly weird Myrdraal is extra tall. Maybe the garrs just decided it was unlikely they were both midgets.

[GonzoTheGreat]

The only thing I have to say is that at some point you are either super tiny or this incredibly weird Myrdraal is extra tall. Maybe the garrs just decided it was unlikely they were both midgets.After they'd (sort of) come to terms with the fact that the DO had turned one of them into Britney Spears? On what grounds would they have decided they hadn't been made midgets too?

[Mort]

Maybe the garrs just decided it was unlikely they were both midgets.

Haha, good one.

And I agree, it's easier to believe that there is a slightly taller Myrdraal in the room than believing that yourself, along with the rest of the room has been scaled down.

Either you invoke Occam's razor (a little tired of that one actually) or you might say that the human mind have an easier time to believe that objects in a world may change than the world itself.

[Neilbert]

On what grounds would they have decided they hadn't been made midgets too?

The scarcity of midgets in Randland.

[Weird Harold]

The scarcity of midgets in Randland.

Especially midgets who can Channel. :D

I can't see any possible benefit to bringing undersizd 'gars back into a tiny-town motel room when they're eventually going to have to deal with normal sized people and normal sized furniture -- else there's no point in bringing them back at all.

[Neilbert]

It would be really funny for the 5 seconds or so it took them to reorient themselves.

That's all I can come up with.

[Terez]

Only on Theoryland.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I can't see any possible benefit to bringing undersizd 'gars back into a tiny-town motel room when they're eventually going to have to deal with normal sized people and normal sized furniture -- else there's no point in bringing them back at all.You pride yourself in being weird, but do not think the DO can be, even though that very scene introduces his sense of humor?
That's weird, is all I can say.

[hippie-joe]

I get what you are saying, and it makes sense.

The only thing I have to say is that at some point you are either super tiny or this incredibly weird Myrdraal is extra tall. Maybe the garrs just decided it was unlikely they were both midgets.

lol, plus midgets are kind of unperportionate and with his previous frame of referance he would realize it if he were a little person or even a child, i mean there was a mirror.

that would make a great disguise though, having one of the choosen being a child/midget. who would guess that a child/midget would be that kind of threat, diabolical, i say diabolical...

[GonzoTheGreat]

lthat would make a great disguise though, having one of the choosen being a child/midget. who would guess that a child/midget would be that kind of threat, diabolical, i say diabolical...Actually, now that you mention it ... yesterday I went to get some takeaway, and while I was waiting for it, I leaved through the Donald Duck*. And the main story in that one was about a midget criminal called something# like kidsface, with Donald thinking that he had to babysit him.

As I've noticed before, the Donald Duck actually has a lot more good ideas than it is generally given credit for. I don't know whether the writers are sad about that, or whether they're secretly enjoying showing off how smart they are while at the same time hiding it in plain sight.

* Don't try to imagine what the other choices were. If you manage, you'll have nightmares about having to read them.

# I'm translating from a memory. So I would be surpriced if the actual name in the American edition had been what I just came up with.

[tworiverswoman]

LoC, The First Message, Prologue

Something blurred in the mirror, and he turned, not too quickly. He had to remember who he was, and make sure others remembered. There still was no door, but a Myrddraal shared the room with them. Neither thing was strange in this place, but the Myrddraal stood taller than any Osan’gar had seen before. How did Aran'gar know that? Actually, my question is why you're wondering how ARAN'GAR would know that, when the quote is referencing Osan'gar... Although, in a twisted way, it makes sense for you to wonder how Aran'gar would know something Osan'gar was thinking.


And it's "leafing" through a comic book. I must also admit I've never seen him referred to as "THE Donald Duck." Looks startling. Though I must agree about the humor -- sometimes there's stuff buried in "children's comics" that one can only hope the kids never catch on to...

[GonzoTheGreat]

I wasn't referring to Donald as "The Donald Duck". I was referring to the magazine in that way.
Just as you could call Bill Clinton a playboy, but would use the Playboy when referring to the magazine with the interesting interviews.

About those gars: I can remember checking to make sure that I had the right one, and then I still picked the wrong name. They just plain look too much alike.

[Oatman]

Well, I'm pretty sure the 'gars could look at the ground and figure out approximately how tall they currently are.
Of course, if you want a more scientific explanation, I happen to have just completed a course on perception, so here it goes.
Perception of size is based on the angle subtended on the back of the retina by the object in question, where at 57 units of measurement away, 1 degree of angle translates to one unit of measurement in size. Basically, at 57cm away from the eye, 1cm makes a 1 degree angle, at 57km away 1km would be 1 degree, and etc. After the degree is calculated, the perceived distance of the object is then used to calculate a size for the object, which is why at greater distance we can get the size wrong, however at a shorter distance this isn't really an issue, barring some impressive optical illusions. So, regardless of what size the 'gars currently are, or what size there furniture is, it would not at all effect the angle subtended on there retina's, and they would have an accurate idea of the size of whatever they are looking at.

[Neilbert]

Wouldn't perceived distance be affected by how far the eyes were apart? Or is that sort of thing hardwired in?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Wouldn't perceived distance be affected by how far the eyes were apart? Or is that sort of thing hardwired in?Testing that would require some rather impressive plastic surgery, I think. Where are we gonna find volunteers?

[Oatman]

It is part of it, but yes the brain calculates that subconsciously. Assuming the transmigration is a transference of the conscious mind rather than a brain transplant(which is pretty safe considering the various states of non-existence the brains of some of the transmigratees). So yeah, the body does all the proportional calculations.

edit: Of course a forced change in proportions would most likely mess everything up, and I'm not sure if it would be fixed. Sight development is pretty much complete at 7 months of age, and our brains lose plasticity as adults, so it might never have the capacity to form the new connections to account for the displacement. The conscious mind would have to work it out.

[Weird Harold]

After the degree is calculated, the perceived distance of the object is then used to calculate a size for the object, which is why at greater distance we can get the size wrong, however at a shorter distance this isn't really an issue, barring some impressive optical illusions.

How does that account for the rather simple optical illusion of a misporportioned room making children look as tall as adults -- The local Lied Children's Discovery Museum has such a room where the walls are shorter at one end than at the other so that the visual cues used to estimate size are completely wrong.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It doesn't, but if you ignore that kind of thing, then Oatman's explanation makes sense.

[Weird Harold]

It doesn't, but if you ignore that kind of thing, then Oatman's explanation makes sense.

His explanation made sense to me even with the question -- it is just a bit over-simplified.

[Oatman]

The local Lied Children's Discovery Museum has such a room where the walls are shorter at one end than at the other so that the visual cues used to estimate size are completely wrong.

Illusions like that one are designed to take advantage of other perceptual functions and heuristics which in regular situations perception more efficient. In this case it would be 'make a decision and stick to it'. The brain makes the decision, based on experience, that the walls of the room will be a consistent size the whole way down, which is reinforced by the cues such as mis-sized furniture. So, when the child enters it gives the illusion of a large child because you have decided the room is normal.
But, I don't think this would work over a short distance, because the cues to the walls changing size would be too obvious.

His explanation made sense to me even with the question -- it is just a bit over-simplified

Of course it's over-simplified, if I gave an explanation which took everything that happens into account it would be ludicrously long and complicated. If you need a more complex answer I'm sure somewhere on the internet will have one for you.

[Weird Harold]

So, when the child enters it gives the illusion of a large child because you have decided the room is normal.
But, I don't think this would work over a short distance, because the cues to the walls changing size would be too obvious.

The specifc room I mentioned is roughly eight feet by ten feet and looks like it's bigger because of the proportions -- just what do you consider a "short distance?"

The example of Osan'gar seeing Shaidar Haran the first time, was in a vacuole in the same range of apparent size as the illusion room at the Discovery Museum.

The possibility of Optical Illusion quickly vanished when SH approached closely enough to pick up Aran'gar by the throat, but whent he comment about his size was made, he was across the room.


If you need a more complex answer I'm sure somewhere on the internet will have one for you.

I don't need a more complex answer, but Gonzo might. :D

[Oatman]

The specifc room I mentioned is roughly eight feet by ten feet and looks like it's bigger because of the proportions -- just what do you consider a "short distance?"

I have assumed, incorrectly I think, that the change in wall size was gradual. Granted I haven't seen the room but I would imagine there would be some pretty inventive architecture involved in tricking the eye into not seeing the rapid change in proportions. Either way, it isn't impossible to be wrong about size at any distance, especially when channeling can be involved.

[Neilbert]

Are you talking about something that's just like being in a child's playhouse, or something that actually tricks you into thinking you're a giant?

At the Seattle Science Museum they had a ramp, with "buildings" on the walls going up the exact wrong way, which caused you to get dizzy unless you looked straight ahead.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I have assumed, incorrectly I think, that the change in wall size was gradual.That is my point, I would say: no such gradual change would be needed at all.

First they're dead, then they are in an environment where everything seems to be "the right size" to them. But they also know that in that specific environment (a vacuole) nothing need be like it is in the real world. Then they get their first real world visitor, and he does not fit the special environment; he's too big for it. Or, alternatively, the special environment is rather small, and the Myrddraal is the ordinary size.

Given the following facts:
-In a vacuole you are not guaranteed that everything will be the size you think it should be.
-Myrddraal are always the same size.

It does not seem logical to conclude that the first Myrddraal you encounter in that vacuole has to be an exception.

And now for something completely different:
I've noticed that Bashere expresses some doubt on whether or not the man who claims to be Mazrim Taim actually is Taim. Could it be someone else, and if so, who? LTT keeps ranting about Sammael and Demandred, but we know that Sammael is in Illian, so it is not him. :p

[Weird Harold]

Are you talking about something that's just like being in a child's playhouse, or something that actually tricks you into thinking you're a giant?

It's a single room, about the size of a playhouse or small shed that tricks your perceptions into misjudging the size of other people in room; people on one side of the room look bigger (and feel bigger to some extent) and people on the other side look smaller.

The room actually isn't rectangular, it doesn't have a single right angle in it. The angles and proportions it does have make it look about twice it's actual size because your eye and brain are expecting right angles.

At the Seattle Science Museum they had a ramp, with "buildings" on the walls going up the exact wrong way, which caused you to get dizzy unless you looked straight ahead.

That is a similar illusion, in that it plays with perspective, but it sounds more like an application of tromp l'oeille(sp?) painting technique than adjusting physical room dimensions.

ETA: the room is apparently called an Ames Room (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ames_room)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/Ames_room.svg/350px-Ames_room.svg.png

[Neilbert]

That's pretty cool, but it (like most other illusions) doesn't seem like it would stand up to close scrutiny.

The image you displayed had them viewing the room from a fixed location outside the room. I would imagine being able to move around and explore freely would ruin the game. E: Especially if you have another person to help you experiment. (oh hey when you stand here you're giant, but from over here you're tiny sort of thing)

And yeah, IIRC the ramp was just a ramp, there wasn't any special architecture to it.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yeah, but if you're both 16 inches shorter than you used to be, and all the furniture in the room is accordingly smaller, then how are you going to tell?
What standard do you use for figuring out that you've shrunk, when all the available evidence suggests you haven't?

[Weird Harold]

That's pretty cool, but it (like most other illusions) doesn't seem like it would stand up to close scrutiny.

The image you displayed had them viewing the room from a fixed location outside the room. I would imagine being able to move around and explore freely would ruin the game. ...

The effect works when the architecture isn't as extreme as the demonstration rooms in children's museums and it does work from inside the room as well as from the outside vantage point -- if not quite as well in the demonstration rooms.

The link I posted give a couple of examples of how Ames Rooms are used for movie special effects.

Shaidar Haran isn't extremely taller than other Mydraal, so the extreme perspective of a demonstration room wouldn't be necessary to account for Osan'gar's intitial impression.

Interior decorator's use a similar perspective trick to make model homes look bigger by using small furniture; the furniture isn't small enough to make prospective buyers feel big, but just small enough an proportioned such that the room looks ten to twenty percent bigger than it is.

(home shopping hint, take a tape measure with you when you're touring model homes.)

[Neilbert]

Yeah, but if you're both 16 inches shorter than you used to be, and all the furniture in the room is accordingly smaller, then how are you going to tell?

Have I transported into another universe where Oatman doesn't exist, and never answered this exact question?

Shaidar Haran isn't extremely taller than other Mydraal, so the extreme perspective of a demonstration room wouldn't be necessary to account for Osan'gar's intitial impression.

Head and shoulders is quite a bit taller, when you are looking at it from the short end.

Shaidar Haran isn't extremely taller than other Mydraal, so the extreme perspective of a demonstration room wouldn't be necessary to account for Osan'gar's intitial impression.

So it's possible, but that's a loooong way to go for a practical joke. Is Shai'tan a trickster god, as well as a god of evil?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Have I transported into another universe where Oatman doesn't exist, and never answered this exact question?Oatman left out one rather crucial piece of information: how to get a dependable unit of measurement. If you don't have that, then all you can do is comparisons.
So it's possible, but that's a loooong way to go for a practical joke. Is Shai'tan a trickster god, as well as a god of evil?The example of Halima would suggest that the answer to your question is a fairly clear "yes".

[Weird Harold]

Head and shoulders is quite a bit taller, when you are looking at it from the short end.

True, but it is a lot less than the 100-150% apparent increas of making a 3-4foot child look 7-10 feet tall -- depending on how tall the walls are perceived to be.



Shaidar Haran isn't extremely taller than other Mydraal, so the extreme perspective of a demonstration room wouldn't be necessary to account for Osan'gar's intitial impression.

So it's possible, but that's a loooong way to go for a practical joke. Is Shai'tan a trickster god, as well as a god of evil?

It wouldn't necessarily have to be a deliberate deception; the scene took place in a vacuole, and vacuoles have different rules of space and time, so the room might just naturally be warped enough to give a false perception of height.

[Neilbert]

Aaah so Robert Jordan is the trickster god. Makes sense really.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Aaah so Robert Jordan is the trickster god. Makes sense really.No, all I was really wondering about is why Dashiva didn't consider the possibility that the DO was a trickster god, when he had actually observed the evidence of the DO being a trickster god (or at least a practical joker god) already.

[Terez]

Because there was no good reason for the Dark One to trick him in that particular way, just to make a Fade look taller?

[GonzoTheGreat]

There was no good reason for the DO to stuff one of his male Chosen into a female body, yet he did that anyway.

My point: as a Chosen, you're supposed to be paranoid. Why was this particular Chosen such a failure at that, in a situation that not merely called for it, but screamed through a bullhorn for the need for more paranoia?

[Matoyak]

There was no good reason for the DO to stuff one of his male Chosen into a female body, yet he did that anyway.

My point: as a Chosen, you're supposed to be paranoid. Why was this particular Chosen such a failure at that, in a situation that not merely called for it, but screamed through a bullhorn for the need for more paranoia?
Because maybe RJ didn't feel the need for it? I too am curious as to the even more lack of paranoia, but hey, it's a small thing. ~shrug~

Course, there WAS a good reason to put a male chosen in female body. (Ability to hide channeling within the aes sedai) it just happened to be really funny to the DO, as a bonus.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Of course, the "hiding channeling within the Aes Sedai" bit also seems to have been solved by Mesaana, and until Moghedien got a bit careless she also had it down pat. Afterwards too, but then she had a bit of a "not enough paranoia used" problem.

So I think that the funny side of it was actually more important than the other part. Which had to wait until Logain had ran off, anyway, but I suppose the DO hadn't foreseen that bit. Or perhaps he had; he may have remembered from the previous time that he tainted saidin.

[Matoyak]

Of course, the "hiding channeling within the Aes Sedai" bit also seems to have been solved by Mesaana, and until Moghedien got a bit careless she also had it down pat. Afterwards too, but then she had a bit of a "not enough paranoia used" problem.

So I think that the funny side of it was actually more important than the other part. Which had to wait until Logain had ran off, anyway, but I suppose the DO hadn't foreseen that bit. Or perhaps he had; he may have remembered from the previous time that he tainted saidin.
~Shrug~ I dunno, I agree, the funny was probably more important, but if it would have hurt rather than helped, the DO wouldn't have done it most likely.

Weren't the other one's disguised as being aes sedai? Not too hard hiding channeling there. Halima, on the other hand, couldn't exactly pretend that bit as easily. (Yeah, the whole change appearance with one power thing, but that does have some drawbacks). It's just easier to hide male channeling within females.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Moghedien was disguised as Marigan, a somewhat older woman who couldn't channel. There is a lot of speculation on Mesaana's secret identity*, but it is not confirmed whether or not she's pretending# to be an AS.

* No one has suggested Batman, yet, I think.

# Actually, she is one, of course. Once AS, always AS, and all the Forsaken were AS in the Age of Legends.

[GonzoTheGreat]

As I already predicted in the OP, I now regret choosing this title, since the book actually provides a better one. I have to admit that I hadn't expected that, though of course I should have remembered.
LoC, A Different Dance, Chapter 5

They had fairly attentive audiences – many of the onlookers came from villages that eagerly greeted a gleeman’s visit – more so than the girl singing on a table in a tavern called The Three Towers.So I was off by 33%. Why didn't anyone spot this any earlier?

[Weird Harold]

My point: as a Chosen, you're supposed to be paranoid. Why was this particular Chosen such a failure at that, in a situation that not merely called for it, but screamed through a bullhorn for the need for more paranoia?

Given the poor performance of many of the Forsaken and their demonstrated lack of "team spirit" I've always wondered just why this particular thirteen were at Shayol Ghul to be Sealed away with the DO.

About half of the Forsaken would be the last people I'd expect to see at a high level strategy meeting but wouldn't at all be surprised to find them waiting in line at the "principal's office" for an ass chewing over pursuing thier own goals at the expense of the DO's goals.

[Neilbert]

You have an interesting definition of "poor performance". It's pretty silly to call in your command staff and bitch them out when you are on the verge of winning.

Darkfriends almost by definition put their own goals ahead of everyone elses, so the teamwork thing is a bit of a moot point. The Dark One encouraged competition among his chosen, so chewing them out for not cooperating would be one hell of a mixed message to send.

[Weird Harold]

You have an interesting definition of "poor performance". It's pretty silly to call in your command staff and bitch them out when you are on the verge of winning.

Darkfriends almost by definition put their own goals ahead of everyone elses, so the teamwork thing is a bit of a moot point. The Dark One encouraged competition among his chosen, so chewing them out for not cooperating would be one hell of a mixed message to send.
Their performance since being released hasn't been up to their fearsome reputations -- it hasn't been even close to their fearsome reputations.

Some of the Forsaken -- Ishamael, Demandred, Semirhage, Greandal -- have more or less lived up to their reputations, but others -- Lanfear, Moghedien, Asmodean, Sammael, Mesaana -- have fallen far short of their reputations, IMHO.

The others have mixed performances in circumstances where their fearsome reputations don't have much relevance or irrevocably Killed before they could demonstrate much of anything.

[Neilbert]

I love how you just decided to switch from talking about during the AoL to talking about the current age. The Forsaken wouldn't have the reputation they have if they hadn't been effective.

Circumstances have changed. You know that right?

[greatwolf]

Their performance since being released hasn't been up to their fearsome reputations -- it hasn't been even close to their fearsome reputations.

Sounds rather unfair. Asmodean was set up quite beautifully. Lanfear had Rand beaten till Moiraine came. Ditto Belal who was playing a game (he was bored to death) till Moiraine changed the rules in a very barbaric manner - everyone in the aol knew BF wasn't allowed.

The forsaken are still ways ahead of the pack. But the pattern IMHO, has been making them look silly. Unfair, as I said.

The three miltary boys :Rahvin/Demandred/Sammael had to be there. Ishy, Lanfear and Graendal also had to be at any top level meeting, I think. Aginor, Semirhage, Moghedien and Belal too for their skills too. The last three I dont know about.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Lanfear ran head on into her one single weakness. Sort of like letting Asmodean come second best in a talent contest against the Spice Girls. No wonder Lanfear was a bit unhinged.

Moghedien did very well; but she ran into Nynaeve, who is a lot more awesome than her appearance suggests. Notwithstanding the braid pulling, sniffing and such, she is actually competent, and that's not something one would expect from an AS.

Asmodean ... well, I'm sure he has strong points. I would be grateful if someone could remind me of them.

Sammael did quite well; it was only Moridin's intervention which saved Rand's life. Without that, he would have killed the Dragon Reborn.

Mesaana has quite effectively turned the White Tower from a global powerhouse into a besieged chicken coop. At the same time, she distracted Rand with his abduction, made him even more distrustful than he already was, and gave him claustrophobia to boot.

[Neilbert]

Asmodean ... well, I'm sure he has strong points. I would be grateful if someone could remind me of them.

He was an effective administrator.

Rhavin was also winning, until he too ran head first into Nynaeve's rather startling (for it's uniqueness) competence.

[Terez]

Musicians just don't get any luv. :(

[Neilbert]

His brilliant compositions inspired the Dragon Reborn to many a glorious victory?

[GonzoTheGreat]

LoC, A Matter of Thought, Chapter 7

Demandred moved out from behind the columns of the Grand Hall and looked from the two thrones to where the girl had vanished. Elayne Trakand, unless he missed his guess wildly, and using a minor ter’angrealby the faint look of her, one made for training beginning students. He would have given much to know what was in her head, but her words and expression had been plain enough. She did not like what al’Thor was doing here, not in the least, and meant to do something about it. A determined young woman, he suspected. In any case, another thread in the tangle yanked, however feeble the pull turned out to be.
"Let the Lord of Chaos rule," he told the thrones – though he still wished he knew why it had to be so – and opened a gateway to leave Tel’aran’rhiod.Now, I think that we agree that Demandred isn't Taim. So what was he doing in Caemlyn, and why did he risk going there instead of elsewhere?

[GonzoTheGreat]

LoC, Questions and Answers, Chapter 12

"I will consider your suggestion," Birgitte said gravely, but there was nothing grave about the mixture of sympathy and amusement on her face. The woman knew Aes Sedai. In some ways, she knew more about Aes Sedai than any Aes Sedai.This raises the question: do Birgitte and Cadsuane know each other?

Based on what we know of Birgitte, she has been involved in just about any adventure that happened while she was alive. Based on what we know of Cadsuane, she has been involved in any adventure of the last 300 years. So did they ever meet?
I don't think there is any evidence at all on this, but it would be interesting to see a meeting of the two.

[Weird Harold]

Now, I think that we agree that Demandred isn't Taim. So what was he doing in Caemlyn, and why did he risk going there instead of elsewhere?

He was in T'A'R and just before the passage you quoted is this:

The Grand Hall in her mother’s palace in Caemlyn did not appear around her with any ease. There was a feel of resistance before she stood on a red-and-white tiled floor beneath the great arched roof, between rows of massive white columns. Once more light seemed to come from everywhere and nowhere. The huge windows overhead, depicting the White Lion of Andor alternating with the earliest queens of the realm and scenes of great Andoran victories, were indistinct with the night outside.

Immediately she saw the difference from what she knew that had made coming here difficult. On the dais at the end of the hall where the Lion Throne should have stood was instead a grandiose monstrosity made of Dragons sparkling gold and red in gilt and enamel, with sunstones for their eyes. Her mother’s throne had not been removed from the chamber. It stood on a kind of pedestal, behind and above the monstrous thing.

The "Dragon Throne" described here is a figment of T'A'R and happens just a few minutes after Carlinya's encounter with a nightmare Trolloc's deep-fryer hair treatment.

Perhaps the nightmare they encountered was not as random as everyone assumes and Demandred was "spreading chaos" by tampering with the SAS explorations of T'A'R and just took an easy opportunity to cast a spur of the moment aspersion on how Rand is treating Andor in Morgase and Elayne's absense?

Demandred may not be posing as Taim, but the evidence for "taimandred" still works for Demandred being Taim's sponsor/teacher.

[AbbeyRoad]

I've noticed that Bashere expresses some doubt on whether or not the man who claims to be Mazrim Taim actually is Taim. Could it be someone else, and if so, who? LTT keeps ranting about Sammael and Demandred, but we know that Sammael is in Illian, so it is not him.

What a fresh, original theory. Maybe we should debate this in another thread. Oh, wait...

[Weird Harold]

This raises the question: do Birgitte and Cadsuane know each other?
... Cadsuane, she has been involved in any adventure of the last 300 years. So did they ever meet?


It's inconclusive, but I can't find any of Birgitte's obscure references that date an incarnation later than just after the end of the Hundred Years Wars around 200 NE, or about 500 years before Casuane's birth.

I don't think they have met, although it definitely would be intersting if they had.

[GonzoTheGreat]

LoC, Questions and Answers, Chapter 12

Neither saw the woman watching them from a second-story window.Now who was that, and why was it important to mention her?

It might me Moghedien, but as far as I know, we don't hear about this episode again (apart from the scene where Nynaeve informs Elayne of what she heard), so it seems rather irrelevant. Yet if it did not matter, then why mention it?

[Ozymandias]

This raises the question: do Birgitte and Cadsuane know each other?

Based on what we know of Birgitte, she has been involved in just about any adventure that happened while she was alive. Based on what we know of Cadsuane, she has been involved in any adventure of the last 300 years. So did they ever meet?
I don't think there is any evidence at all on this, but it would be interesting to see a meeting of the two.

The strong implication I've gotten from hearing about her past lives is that mot of them came pre-Hawkwing. As in, she seems to have been reborn several times between the Breaking and Hawkwing, and few afterwards.

Also, mind you, her adventures aren't those Cadsuane would necessarily be in. Birgitte's adventures are often just a farmgirl rescuing her love from some local evil, not always of the world shattering variety (she makes mention of being a farmgirl, I think). Cadsuane wouldn't be involved in that.

Plus, look at right now! Arguably, there are like a dozen places a Hero could be involved and have a tale told about it... and Cadsuane isn't in all of them. Assuming there is only one adventure worth telling about going on at any time seems a bit naive.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Looking at now, I suspect that Elayne, and hence Birgitte, will get involved in Tarmon Gaidon. I also think that Cadsuane will meddle in that, so having them meet in the Pit of Doom is not really out of the question.

Which brings up my next musing: why don't they let Cadsuane slap the DO into being a good boy? That'd solve the whole problem once and for all, it seems to me.

[Neilbert]

Who is stopping her? Nobody can. Her slap skill is so high Rand can't even block any of them in spite of all his training.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Can Harriet embroider?
RJ has said that all the women are based on her, at least to some extend. Some of them can embroider, some definitely can't. So how about The Original, can she or can't she?

[Terez]

Can Harriet embroider?
RJ has said that all the women are based on her, at least to some extend. Some of them can embroider, some definitely can't. So how about The Original, can she or can't she?
When RJ hasn't taken out the trash, she can.

[GonzoTheGreat]

All of this post is about LoC, Heading South, Chapter 22. Short recap of what happens, so that I don't have to quote more than necessary:
Mat leads the Band south (leading means he's not breathing as much dust) to take command of the army that is distracting Sammael from the real attack aimed at him. Vanin discovers the dead Tinkers with their cryptic message ("Tell the Dragon Reborn") and lets Mat worry about it. Mat decides to halt for the day, and is attacked when it is fully dark. Nerim sews up a couple of wounded people, and Mat hires Olver.

First, there's the matter of the Tinkers.
I think they were a red herring of sorts. In my view, they were simply killed there in order to slow down Mat, so that he would be easy to find. The message is thus basically meaningless.
Of course, it is possible that the next book disproves this, but since no one in the series seems to have remembered this scene in half a dozen books, I doubt it will suddenly gain a lot of importance.

Then, the attack.
I am wondering who sent those Aiel. The most obvious suspect is Sammael, but I don't think we can really exclude any of the other Forsaken. At least, not one of the ones that knows about Mat, which admittedly limits it a bit.
A non-Forsaken culprit might be possible, but seems unlikely, since Traveling was used to transport the Aiel. That limits it to Taim and friends, and Aviendha. The former doesn't have any known Aiel subordinates, let alone disposable ones, and the latter doesn't seem to have any reason to want Mat dead, added to the fact that she doesn't know how she can Travel.
So, all in all, definitely a Forsaken, and most likely Sammael, though such assasination doesn't seem his style. He did try to do it through Melindhra, but that was to goad Rand, not to kill an enemy, as it would be now.

Finally, Nerim. I don't think that he is a DF, and I don't think Talmanes is either.
"As my Lord says," Nerim murmured, "my Lord’s leg is not a side of beef. Thank you, my Lord, for instructing me."There is DF in the series who could manage to put up with this level of sarcasm. So if Talmanes had been a DF, he would have killed Nerim long since. And if Nerim had been one, then his DF superiors would have slit his throat within weeks.

[greatwolf]

.
I am wondering who sent those Aiel. The most obvious suspect is Sammael, but I don't think we can really exclude any of the other Forsaken. At least, not one of the ones that knows about Mat, which admittedly limits it a bit.
A non-Forsaken culprit might be possible, but seems unlikely, since Traveling was used to transport the Aiel. That limits it to Taim and friends, and Aviendha. The former doesn't have any known Aiel subordinates, let alone disposable ones, and the latter doesn't seem to have any reason to want Mat dead, added to the fact that she doesn't know how she can Travel.
So, all in all, definitely a Forsaken, and most likely Sammael, though such assasination doesn't seem his style. He did try to do it through Melindhra, but that was to goad Rand, not to kill an enemy, as it would be now.

Someone sent the aiel who dealt with Demira. And Rahvin probably had spies among them, since he got to know about Rand's proposed strike on caemlyn within hours. Likely Lanfears and others did as well. I don't think we can easily rule out any of the forsaken in this. Though Sammael is top choice, any of the others who would love to see sammael dead would send such an attack. That means all of them with Moridin, Demandred and Graendal at the top of the list. We haven't heard anything about the demira incident either. But she was set on studying the aiel so she might learn something eventually.

[GonzoTheGreat]

The Aiellity of Demira's attackers is a bit suspect. On the other hand, Mat and his men have fought and killed enough Aiel to make them trustworthy when it comes to recognising them as opponents.

In case you haven't heard the arguments about Demira's Aiel, yet:
LoC, A Taste of Solitude, Chapter 18

Instead she frowned at a sweaty-faced servant with thin blue and gold stripes on his cuffs, wondering whether he knew how to get where she wanted to go from here. The difficulty was, she was not exactly sure where it was she did want to go. Unfortunately, the fellow was plainly on edge with so many Aiel about. Seeing an Aiel woman frowning at him – they never seemed to notice her dark eyes, which certainly no Aiel had – and his head probably full of tales about the Maidens, he turned and ran as hard as he could.Just to remind you that Aiel do not have dark eyes.
LoC, Beyond the Gate, Chapter 46

"Pardon, Aes Sedai," one of them muttered, and they all pressed against the side of the run, though there was plenty of room.
Wondering if they were the same who had followed her – one of those faces looked familiar, that of a squat fellow with villainous eyes – she nodded and murmured thanks as she started past.
The spear going into her side was such a shock she did not even cry out. Frantically she reached for saidar, but something else pierced her side, and she was down in the dust. That remembered face was thrust into hers, black eyes mocking, growling something she ignored as she tried to reach saidar, tried to... Darkness closed in.A squat fellow with dark eyes sounds rather unlike an Aiel.
LoC, Beyond the Gate, Chapter 46

It was true; she had not. One or even two Aes Sedai made little difference to an inn’s custom in Caemlyn, but nine was another matter. Mistress Cinchonine had remarked on it openly of late. "Then it was intended you should know Aiel had killed me. Or maybe that I was to be found before I died." She had just recalled what that villainous-faced fellow had growled at her. "I was told to tell you all to stay away from al’Thor. Exact words. ‘Tell the other witches to stay away from the Dragon Reborn.’ I could hardly deliver that message dead, could I? How were my wounds placed?"A squat, dark eyed man who uses the un-Aiel like phrases "Dragon Reborn" and "witches" sounds rather suspiciously like a Whitecloak who put on Aiel garb, doesn't it?

Of course, whether this was a Whitecloack plot, something Taim cooked up, something that seemed a good idea to Fain, or the plan of yet another would-be Wheelwright, we'll probably never know.

[Weird Harold]

Someone sent the aiel who dealt with Demira. And Rahvin probably had spies among them, since he got to know about Rand's proposed strike on caemlyn within hours. Likely Lanfears and others did as well. I don't think we can easily rule out any of the forsaken in this.

As Gonzo pointed out, the "aiel" who attacked Demira were clearly NOT aiel. I sincerely doubt that Rahvin had any spies among Demira's attackers because he was dead wwhen she was attacked.

Rahvin probably wasn't responsible for gating (real) aiel DFs into Mat's camp to attack him, either, because he was still dead when that happened. :D

Sammael was the one being immediately threatened by Mat's progress towards Tear and the Army massing on Illian's border, and is the obvious suspect. He's also the Forsaken most connected with the Aiel because of his dispersal of the Shaido. Sometimes, the obvious suspect is the guilty party.

[Neilbert]

Sammael was the one being immediately threatened by Mat's progress towards Tear and the Army massing on Illian's border, and is the obvious suspect. He's also the Forsaken most connected with the Aiel because of his dispersal of the Shaido. Sometimes, the obvious suspect is the guilty party.

I've always wondered why Sammael just didn't kill Mat himself. I mean he was like a dozen paces away at one point (assuming it was his gateway), even if he had known about the medallion Sammael could have just thrown heavy rocks at Mat or something.

But then again the Forsaken are hardly pragmatic.

[Jonai]

Sammael was pretty close to mat too in aCoS when Bors sees him out the window. I have the feeling the Forsaken just considered them insects and kill them if it wasn't too much effort but at the same time, they didn't consider Mat or Perrin any real threat to anything. Of course that all seems to change at Ishy's renewed "kill them" order in KoD.

[irerancincpkc]

Yeah, since Mat and Perrin can't channel, I'd guess the Forsaken really underestimated them, plus the fact that Rand cast a very large shadow...

[Neilbert]

Sammael was pretty close to mat too in aCoS when Bors sees him out the window.

Sammael says that Mat's death would be convenient, but not if it draws attention to Ebou Dar because he is searching for the Wise Woman's secret stash.

Maybe someone was trying to frame Sammael? The nine bee dagger seems a touch hamfisted, and Mat getting killed by "Sammael's" Aiel would cause Rand to focus on him. It seems like an Aran'gar move really.

[Weird Harold]

I've always wondered why Sammael just didn't kill Mat himself. I mean he was like a dozen paces away at one point (assuming it was his gateway), even if he had known about the medallion Sammael could have just thrown heavy rocks at Mat or something.

But then again the Forsaken are hardly pragmatic.
One reason he didn't try himself may be that he doesn't really believe he could succeed in killing a ta'veren -- if he had simply opened a gateway, fireballed or balefired Mat's tent, and closed the gateway, he would have missed Mat completely.

The use of Aiel surrogates to kill Mat (in theory) would sow dissention among Rand's forces, -- and just who is it that is noted for his use of surrogates?

An assassination by Aiel arranged by Demandred would point fingers of accusation at Sammael, the Aiel, the BotRH sentries' negligence, and generally anywhere except at Demandred -- and failure serves almost better than success at sowing Chaos.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Good points. And I've long had the idea that Demandred was hiding amongst the Aiel, at least until I developed the idea that he is behind the Borderlander migration. Of course, both could be the case; he doesn't have to stay with the Borderlanders once they're pointed on their way.

[GonzoTheGreat]

For a while, I thought that Morgase might actually be the most irritating woman in the series. Then I came to an Egwene part again ...

Anyways, I have a question:
LoC, In the Hall of the Sitters, Chapter 35

The house became a whirlwind before Siuan made it out the door. Egwene’s riding dress came in for considerable discussion – none of which she was part of – and a plump serving woman was roused from her nap in a chair in a back room and sent off, with dire warnings if she breathed a word, to fetch every Accepted’s dress she could find that might come close to fitting Egwene. She tried on eight, right there in the front room, before finding one that did fit, after a fashion. It was too tight in the bosom, but thankfully loose in the hips. All the time the serving woman was bringing in dresses and Egwene was trying them on, Sheriam and the others took turns running out to dress themselves, and in between lectured her on what was going to happen, what she had to do and say.Is there any woman in the whole series, apart from perhaps Tuon, who would have fitted into that dress?
If not, then I do not really understand why the AS took the trouble of dragging the thing all the way from Tar Valon to Salidar.

And further, something that might spark some discussion: Lelaine is smarter than Nynaeve:
LoC, The Amyrlin is Raised, Chapter 36

"That may be so," Lelaine began sharply, giving her blue-fringed shawl a jerk, then stopped. It was so. More, the Amyrlin Seat had publicly decreed those women Aes Sedai. The Hall might be able to keep them Accepted – or whatever Theodrin and Faolain were, in their cases – but the Hall could not erase memories, and it would not stop everyone knowing they had gone against the Amyrlin on her first day. A great deal that would do for confidence.Lelaine has the good sense not to do that kind of thing with her own hair. That's smart, very smart, for AS standards.

[GonzoTheGreat]

LoC, A Different Dance, Chapter 5

They had fairly attentive audiences – many of the onlookers came from villages that eagerly greeted a gleeman’s visit – more so than the girl singing on a table in a tavern called The Three Towers.RJ has been too subtle. The three towers: the White Tower, the Black Tower and the Little Tower.
Almost like Terry Pratchett's wizards, who always go into a tower building frenzy when they feel threatened. Makes one wonder how the Windfinders will manage.

[greatwolf]

For a while, I thought that Morgase might actually be the most irritating woman in the series. Then I came to an Egwene part again ...

Stop that.
Eghwene's a better character than many. For one, she's done better than the other 3girls in almost everything. She's the only one that comes close to truly being at par with the forsaken. She's mastered pretty well the art of dealing with AS and she's a learner. I think she deserves some respect. Do you see her engaging in bath tub scenes?

BTW, I always thought the job of irritating woman belonged to caddy.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Egwene used sweatbaths, not bathtubs, I'll grant you that. I am not sure it is much of an improvement, considering the fact that the steam will probably cover just as much as the bubbles in the bath would, but then, if that's what floats your boat ...

Cadsuane can be rather annoying, but, like Nynaeve, she has the rather large redeeming feature of actually being useful. And, on top of that, once again like Nynaeve, she is willing to let do men what they are good at, and actually acknowledges that they can do that well.
Is there anything that Egwene has done that actually benefits Rand more than the fact that she has stayed out of his way since halfway through LoC? Not an inconsiderable help, perhaps, but one can't help thinking that maybe she could have done even more.

I don't think that is how RJ planned it, but it seems to me as though the whole Elaida vs. Egwene squabble could be extended effortlessly beyond Tarmon Gaidon without anyone outside Tar Valon either noticing or caring. If either of those two loses, then whoever wins will start interfering in the outside world again and that doesn't seem to provide any upside to it at all.

[greatwolf]

Gosh, you've got a bur somewhere Gonzo.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I seriously dislike Egwene. In my opinion, Elaida is more honest about her attitude towards Rand, while those attitudes are not really different when you come down to it.

[greatwolf]

Egwene has a lot of good points. It all depends on how you look at it. She's the girl that went through captivity under seanchan and survived, without becoming what Rand became after Dumai's wells.

She's the good student under the aiel who still manages to uphold female (channelers) values with Rand. And she has adjusted very nicely to captivity under Elaida. In manner that demonstrates clearly the difference between an amyrlin as bully and a capable, thoughtful person.

She even combines knowledge of weaves from most channeling classes in the series: AS, Seanchan, Aiel and Forsaken. Practically the perfect pupil.
She's a good role model.

[GonzoTheGreat]

She's good at what she does, but is what she does good?

Just look at how she "defends" Rand when Gawyn thinks he killed his mother.
Egwene could have said that she was with Rand when word of Morgase's death reached Cairhien, and that it was only the next day that Rand went to Caemlyn to kill Rahvin.
But instead she merely asks him to stay his hand until she can prove Rand's innocence. Yet how she can possibly manage that, unless she knows at the time that Morgase still lives, is totally unclear to me. If Rand being somewhere else, with a Forsaken on the scene who usurps her throne right after her death is not enough, then what does Egwene think she can add to that?

[greatwolf]

She's good at what she does, but is what she does good?.?

Of that depends on your definition of "good". Do you mean like Galad?

Just look at how she "defends" Rand when Gawyn thinks he killed his mother.?

That was the pattern. The pattern has gotten Tiarens to accept Illianers, and we see taveren effect everywhere. Why not on Gwayn?

Egwene could have said that she was with Rand when word of Morgase's death reached Cairhien, and that it was only the next day that Rand went to Caemlyn to kill Rahvin.?

How would that help. Everyone knew suspected Rand could Travel. I guess Egwene was buying time in hope he would be more reasonable about the issue over time. Time heals all.

If Rand being somewhere else, with a Forsaken on the scene who usurps her throne right after her death is not enough, then what does Egwene think she can add to that?

I agree she ought to have told Gwayn something, but you seem to forget that RJ is making this as realistic as possible, and you need to factor in the influence of the shadow on events.

The pattern tugs on Egwene, but also the shadow. And not knowing what to say at a critical moment is part of human nature. Especially for someone as young as she is, in the emotional excitement of the moment. I think you're being a little hard on her.

E: BTW, there's something about defending your former BF to your new one on your first date...

[GonzoTheGreat]

How would that help.
Has Egwene told Gawyn that lord Gaebril was in reality Rahvin? As far as I know she hasn't, yet that little fact would go a very long way towards shifting suspicion away from Rand.
BTW, there's something about defending your former BF to your new one on your first date...To a certain extend, that might be correct. On the other hand, if you knew that that BF was accused of murdering your date's mother, and you also knew that the recently escaped Charles Manson was on the scene at the time of the murder, then withholding that information isn't really reasonable, I think.
Of course, Manson is nowhere near as evil as Rahvin is supposed to be, but he might do for comparison purposes.
Especially for someone as young as she is, in the emotional excitement of the moment. I think you're being a little hard on her.If this were the only case, then you might be right. But it definitely isn't.

What exactly is it that Egwene has done which has benefitted the cause of the Light in general, and Rand in particular, since she left the Aiel Waste?
The only things I can think of right now are letting Logain go and sending Elayne and Nynaeve to get the Bowl of the Winds.
Apart from that, she has been working to satisfy her own ambition only. As Rand said to another of his former girlfriends "and you loved power". Perhaps he picks a girl like that first in every one of his incarnations. As Birgitte says to him "You always choose women who cause you trouble, Lews Therin."

[greatwolf]

Has Egwene told Gawyn that lord Gaebril was in reality Rahvin? As far as I know she hasn't, yet that little fact would go a very long way towards shifting suspicion away from Rand.

And would Gwayn simply assume she was trying to protect her friend? And former lover perhaps? What proof could she offer him?

What exactly is it that Egwene has done which has benefitted the cause of the Light in general, and Rand in particular, since she left the Aiel Waste?

You started with two. Add Traveling. Add cuendillar. And numerous weaves from moghedien for a start. And sending Lan to nyn was obviously for Egwene's benefit. Pardon me if I don't see how.

BTW,who would be better for Rand as leader of the SAS? Egwene, Romanda or Lelaine? Didn't she help the AS to vote to accept the ashaman? Staying out of arangar's hands and keeping the rebellion against Elaida alive surely have no benefit to Rand or the forces of the light.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Why wouldn't Gawyn believe her? She could tell him from her own personal knowledge that the Forsaken were free. In TEOTW she had already seen Aginor and Balthamel, after all. She knew that Be'lal had been in Tear, she also knew that Sammael was in Illian.

Egwene did rediscover Traveling, but I don't think she has done anything to spread it beyond her own power base. The fact that that happened is down to Elayne, who shared it with Aviendha. The cuendillar is a good way of making money, but I don't see how it will help in TG. And Moghedien was already producing quite a few things without Egwene. She did save Lan, and thus Nynaeve, you're right about that.

And to be honest, I am not sure that either Romanda or Lelaine would be any worse for Rand. With them, he would know what he could and could not expect, and they would know that he knew. As a result, they would be forced to give him more substantial support than the rather nebulous things Egwene has done so far.

As for keeping the rebellion against Elaida alive: why keep the White Tower alive at all? Individual AS can be quite useful, but as an organisation it has only gotten in Rand's way, and there is no indication that that will change.

[greatwolf]

And to be honest, I am not sure that either Romanda or Lelaine would be any worse for Rand

:eek:

[GonzoTheGreat]

What do you think they would have done differently, in regard to Rand?
Egwene hasn't really send all that many instructions to her embassy, has she? If Romanda or Lelaine had ignored him just as much, the difference wouldn't have been very noticeable. And if they had done something else, then they would either have supported him more, which would be better than Egwene did, or they would have run the risk of him sending a note back "what does the Amyrlin, Elaida, think of that". He won't do that to Egwene, but they might very well fear that he would do it to them, thus making them more willing to compromise.

[Weird Harold]

Why wouldn't Gawyn believe her? She could tell him from her own personal knowledge that the Forsaken were free. In TEOTW she had already seen Aginor and Balthamel, after all. She knew that Be'lal had been in Tear, she also knew that Sammael was in Illian.

Why would Gawyn believe her?

Gawyn is asking her to prove a negative and fanciful tales of Forsaken taking over his mother's kingdom when there is no Forsaken bodies to show to him wouldn't prove anything -- because Rand could be tampering with her mind or she might be just making things up to protect Rand from Gawyn.

The issue with any of the things that she could tell Gawyn is that she can't prove anything she says and Gawyn won't believe her without proof.


Egwene’s eyes nearly popped out of her head. "Gawyn, no! No, he did not!"

"Can you swear it? Were you there when she died? It’s on every tongue. The Dragon Reborn took Caemlyn, and killed Morgase. He probably killed Elayne, too. I can find no word of her." All the anger drained out of him. He slumped where he stood, head falling forward, fists clenched and eyes closed. "I can find out nothing," he whispered.

"Elayne is unharmed," Egwene said, ... "Elayne is safe, Gawyn. I can swear to that."

"Where is she?" His voice was anguished. "Where has she been? Her place is in Caemlyn now. Well, not Caemlyn – not so long as al’Thor might be there – but in Andor. Where is she, Egwene?"

"I... cannot tell you. I can’t, Gawyn."

Gawyn set an impossible standard of Proof for Egwene to absolve Rand of Morgase's murder -- but inexplicably takes rumor as Gospel without evidence.

[greatwolf]

Thanks, WH.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Gawyn would believe her because he wants to believe her. She's the love of his life, and he isn't too likely to start accusing her of being a bald faced liar on their first date.
He did believe her equally nebulous assurances that Elayne was somewhere safe, didn't he?

I do agree that Gawyn should have known better than to assume that rumor was absolute truth. However, the fact that he's an idiot does not mean that Egwene had to descend to his level, does it? She knew better, and kept it secret.

[Toss the dice]

I would put my most annoying character at either Nynaeve or Elayne. I would vote Egwene for my least favorite character hands down.

Egwene may have accomplished a lot, she did her whole "honorable" thing with the Aiel, became Amyrlin of Salidar, blah blah. But if there was a "Selfish Trophy," she would have to be one of the finalists. Her whole goal of existence was/is becoming Aes Sedai, being the best damn Aes Sedai ever, and uniting the White Tower. And that's about it. For all I can tell, she could care less if the entire world is swallowed by the Shadow and burns for all of eternity, as long as the White Tower is whole (obviously this is a confliction). And it's not as if she doesn't have PLENTY of information regarding pretty much everything and the state of affairs.

Like someone else said, basically everything that Egwene and company are doing has jack squat of influence on the real war of the Light vs Shadow. That line Merise Sedai said when she brought Narishma before the sitters to bring up the bonding of Ash'aman sums it up perfectly. Merise entered my top 10 fav characters list off of that line alone.

Egwene seems very similar to Moiraine in her attitudes and purpose. Except, Moiraine actually had a VERY worthwhile purpose and "quest" regarding the world, whereas Egwene seems not to care about the world whatsoever, only herself and what SHE thinks is important. Sure, fixing the WT is a huge undertaking and important, but NOT NOW YOU SILLY GIRL. Don't you think someone by the name of "Rand" may just need Aes Sedai support right now? Or any sort of help at all? Even if all they did was Fedex over a bushel of soybeans to Rand's doorstep would be helping more than they are now.

Nynaeve is beyond annoying, with about the worst social attitude and social skills one could hope for. But like someone else said, she ACTUALLY HELPS. Elayne is in the same boat as Nynaeve. I would punch them both in the face, but at least they help. Can't say too much because of that.

Also, I forgot about Morgase herself. While she may be a good queen, other than that she seems pretty worthless and annoying as hell too. Too bad she didn't jump. Must run in the family.

Cadsuane is in the annoying but useful category along with Elayne and Nynaeve. Actually, most every Aes Sedai are annoying beyond reason if even just for the fact that they think they know everything, try to manipulate everybody, and are in general bitches. I'm giving Cadsuane even another +1 to her annoying because of the fact that I'm pretty sure her ter'angreal that stops weaves is at least 80% of the reason she demands "utter respect" (aka worshipping her like a child) while being an overbearing hag with everyone else. I would have thrown her out a window at the first opportunity and chalked up a minor victory for the Light within 3 minutes of seeing her.

Sorry for the rant, but I don't like very many women in WoT. I think the main reason for this is the fact that so many of the even semi-main female characters happen to be Aes Sedai or might as well be. I do like Moiraine, Min, Aviendha, and Birgitte though, as well as others I can't think of offhand. I would tell Tuon where to shove it, but she is a good character and she can't help her background culture.

Lastly, I think Gawyn is perfect for Egwene. They're both ignorant, selfish fools.

Edit: I'm actually half-surprised Rand hasn't just thrown himself off a cliff long since, just to say the hell with all you fools (mostly Aes Sedai and nobles) that are too dumb to figure out what their priorities should be. Good thing he has lovers and friends eh?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Nynaeve is beyond annoying, with about the worst social attitude and social skills one could hope for. But like someone else said, she ACTUALLY HELPS.Nynaeve is like House: extraordinarily lousy bedside manners, but a good enough doctor to make up for it.

[Enigma]

I would say that Egwene is probably the most flawed of the main good characters. If you visit Wotmania you will see a regular series of postings by an Egwene hater who disectes her behavour book by book to find fault with it.

One thing to remember is that she is certainly a very discussed character so RJ had a success there.

Back to did she do a good job of trying to convince Gawayn that Rand did not kill his mother, personally I think she could have tried harder.

I take the point that she could not say that she was there when Morgase died but would it have been so hard for her to tell Gawyn that the forsaken are free. She has personal knowledge of this. She could also say that she was there when Rand learned that Morgase was dead and her replacement was someone Rand knew to be a forsaken and he flew into a rage to avenge Morgase.

Unfortunatly Egwene has fallen into the Aes Sedai mindset that only other AS should know that the forsaken are free. One would have though that the man who she loves and is in regular contact with both Aes Sedai and other important people and could well be on a forsaken hit list might deserve to be told what was really going on in the world.

[greatwolf]

Like someone else said, basically everything that Egwene and company are doing has jack squat of influence on the real war of the Light vs Shadow.

I think uniting the Tower is important to the fight against the shadow. Ishamael and co certainly think so. It is better to have a united tower support Rand than a split one. You must know by now, that the AS probably thought they had time since the dead where not yet walking. And even Fel warned Rand about having followers he could trust.

Egwene is the Rand's best candidate for amyrlin. Of united AS not split ones. That would be disaster for TG. There was a split among the aol AS before the bore was sealed. It shouldn't occur again.

If others had been leading the SAS, they may have acted against Rand by now on suspicion of compelling sisters. She hasn't. She has kept any bad play out of the ears the generality of AS. All this despite Arangar's manipulations and the AS refusing to accept her as one of them.

On another tangent:

Rereading TGH, I noticed Anaiya first caught on to Egwene being a dreamer when she said she could 'feel' he was in danger. Rand had similar feeling about her and the other girls when he wanted to leave Falme. Would that count as proof that Rand is also a dreamer?

[Toss the dice]

I think uniting the Tower is important to the fight against the shadow. Ishamael and co certainly think so. It is better to have a united tower support Rand than a split one. You must know by now, that the AS probably thought they had time since the dead where not yet walking. And even Fel warned Rand about having followers he could trust.

Sure, if you could have one or the other, it's a no-brainer that you would want a united Tower vs a split one. But in addition to IMO Egwene going about this uniting in the wrong way, it is more complicated than simply saying "united is better than split"...no kidding.

Right now the Aes Sedai (ALL of the AS) need to be concentrated on wholeheartedly supporting Rand and preparing for TG. Instead, they scheme and manipulate against each other in their primary goal of uniting the Tower, not to mention the fact they are essentially at civil war. The vast majority of their manipulation and scheming aimed at Rand is in regards to their goal of either uniting the Tower or simply more effort driven into this stupid war between the "Salidar" AS and "WT" AS. The little bit that is left over that ACTUALLY (wonder of all wonders) is truly in regards to Rand is more often than not backed by the goal to either manipulate or control him.

The "Salidar" AS definately have better intentions than the "WT" AS in regards to Rand, but they don't really do anything with that intention. The one bright shining hope of an effort they have sent in the form of Merana and company failed horribly, until Rand made them kneel to him by way of events that took a turn beyond their control. Short of killing Rand, that whole thing they did in reaction to Demira being nearly killed was about the worst thing they could have done.

They had plenty of info about how to handle Rand from Nynaeve, etc in Salidar and seemingly forgot everything they learned once Eriff was attacked in city. They automatically assumed it was Rand and proceeded to burn down their own delegation. I don't care if Rand showed up to their inn HIMSELF and killed half the delegation, he is the only thing that matters, at the very least the overwhelming #1 priority, and they are too worried about how much respect they deserve to think about that.

If I was Egwene, I would concentrate on forming as solid an "alliance" as possible between the "Salidar" AS and Rand. I realize the Salidar group sent their delegation, but we know how that turned out. I would be literally looking to make the entire freaking town swear oaths of fealty to Rand, something of that magnitude. Marching every single Salidar sister to Rand could scare him off, but I'm sure something could be arranged. They've had plenty of time for arranging.

At the same time as concentrating on forming the above "alliance," I would be also focusing on forming some sort of alliance or treaty with the "WT" AS. If Elaida was having none of it, I would either have her assassinated or just cut my losses and say the hell with the "WT" AS. Plenty of opportunity with eyes and ears, not to mention traveling and considerably more way to snag sisters from the WT's grasp. A temporary alliance (until TG is over) would work just great. The AS could go back to scheming over their WT once the very real threat of complete world destruction by the Shadow was over.

The bottom line is, both the Salidar AS and the WT AS have put in tremendous efforts over the relevant length of time. Can you imagine how relatively easy it would be to accomplish the goal of simply letting Rand know they were behind him all the way and allying with him....if all that tremendous effort was actually applied to him instead of themselves?

This isn't even really touching them preparing for TG. And how exactly are they doing that? I'm assuming they probably could figure out that they will be ACTUALLY FIGHTING in the last battle. I would be setting up sparring sessions (think Nyn vs Tal). They've had oodles of time to get used to and experience in "pulling the strings," and now they have Traveling, the Ways, Dreaming, etc, etc in their arsenal to accelerate it and organize better. If they're so used to pulling the strings, why aren't they masterminding and openly organizing and directing armies to prepare for TG? At least if they were doing that, it would be actually doing something. Are you starting to see where I am coming from? All these Talents, abilities, experience, powers, sway with nobles and rulers, and knowledge....and they're jerking each other off over uniting the White Tower.

At least Elaida has the excuse (comparitive excuse) of being virtually insane, power-hungry, a Red, and not having grown up with Rand. Egwene doesn't have this excuse. She grew up with the man for starters, and has had plenty of "adventure" with him and concerning him as well. The last 2 years of her life has been filled with adventures and dealing with things that directly concern Rand and TG 100%. Except, once she became Amyrlin, somehow she forgot all that, if not before. She had the perfect background (growing up with Rand, not to mention almost married to the guy), and later the perfect position (Amrylin), to help fulfill what I've been saying. Unlike Elaida, she knows what's going on and has had more than enough information into the state of things. She's been LIVING it. And she could give a damn.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I think uniting the Tower is important to the fight against the shadow. Ishamael and co certainly think so. It is better to have a united tower support Rand than a split one.It is the bolded part where all AS involved in the Tower struggle, including Egwene, are failing.

It is precisely the supporting Rand bit where I aim my criticism of Egwene the most. She, just like all other AS, talks about controlling him, guiding him, keeping him from interfering in things that they think he should stay out of.

Just to give one example of Egwene's (and all other Salidar AS') lack of support: she knew about Sammael. But she never send a message to Rand "can we help get rid of that Forsaken". All she did was not countermand the decision not to send an embassy to Illian.
I don't know whether or not Rand would have wanted to have AS help in the Illian case. I do not know whether or not he would have accepted it, even if he had thought it might do some good. But I do know that it wasn't offered.

Now I'm suddenly wondering: did the Salidar AS openly hail Rand as the DR before Elaida's proclamation to that effect?
I know that Elaida added some bits which Rand might not be entirely happy about, but then ... she's Elaida. But from what I remember, she actually was the first of the two contenders to publicly admit Rand's status.

[greatwolf]

If I was Egwene, I would concentrate on forming as solid an "alliance" as possible between the "Salidar" AS and Rand

I think first Egwene needed to be more than a puppet. She has achieved that with her war powers, but they don't apply here. Getting AS to do what they do not want to do is pretty dangerous. To lead the AS, she has to be one first. In heart and soul.

It was the issue of Rand that led to Suian's deposition in the first place and eventually the split. Your suggestion would only serve to worsen the split further and help the shadow, not Rand.

What do you think would have happened if Rand had attacked Elaida after Dumai wells as some hinted? AS will see it as an attack on all AS not just Elaida. Bad business.

It is precisely the supporting Rand bit where I aim my criticism of Egwene the most. She, just like all other AS, talks about controlling him, guiding him, keeping him from interfering in things that they think he should stay out of.

Can you see Rand as a role model? Until he is fit to follow, its a tall order for Egwene to do.

Just to give one example of Egwene's (and all other Salidar AS') lack of support: she knew about Sammael. But she never send a message to Rand "can we help get rid of that Forsaken".

Great. And the BA would know every move Rand made, and by now he'd be in the hands of the forsaken with serious losses to AS and ashaman.

[FelixPax]

On another tangent:

Rereading TGH, I noticed Anaiya first caught on to Egwene being a dreamer when she said she could 'feel' he was in danger. Rand had similar feeling about her and the other girls when he wanted to leave Falme. Would that count as proof that Rand is also a dreamer?

Not sure. Why? Talmanes expressed similar feelings of Mat needing him & the Band down south to Egwene in the meeting on an ice lake, does this make Talmanes a Dreamer too? Or does it have to do with Mat being ta'veran instead?

[Toss the dice]

I think first Egwene needed to be more than a puppet. She has achieved that with her war powers, but they don't apply here. Getting AS to do what they do not want to do is pretty dangerous. To lead the AS, she has to be one first. In heart and soul.

It was the issue of Rand that led to Suian's deposition in the first place and eventually the split. Your suggestion would only serve to worsen the split further and help the shadow, not Rand.

What do you think would have happened if Rand had attacked Elaida after Dumai wells as some hinted? AS will see it as an attack on all AS not just Elaida. Bad business.



Can you see Rand as a role model? Until he is fit to follow, its a tall order for Egwene to do.



Great. And the BA would know every move Rand made, and by now he'd be in the hands of the forsaken with serious losses to AS and ashaman.

I can definately go along with the idea that Egwene could have first tackled not being a puppet before more hands on things concerning Rand. However, her focusing on that doesn't excuse her other actions. For example, laying siege to the White Tower. Talmanes told Mat when he met him in the Altaran forest that Egwene "has those Aes Sedai by the scruff of the neck, even if some may not know it yet." I know it's wishy-washy and very debatable as to how in control or how puppet-like she still is by the time they leave Salidar, but that has nothing to do with everything else she's done, or more specifically, hasn't done.

What does Siuan's deposition have to do with anything? Every single Aes Sedai fully acknowledged Rand as the Dragon Reborn by the time Egwene was raised up as Amyrlin. Even Elaida knows he is. Rand as the DR is the reason the split happened in the first place and the reason for every scrap of in-fighting between the Aes Sedai ever since, even if they aren't helping or supporting him whatsoever. The reason most Aes Sedai either have no desire to support and help Rand or have to be forced into it on their knees is the fact that they are uppity bitches that have been pulling strings, ordering royalty, and in general think the world of themselves while thinking they also know everything. If Egwene tried to shoot for supporting and helping Rand right out of the gate or a little after shedding a few puppet strings....it would have worked. Or maybe not. But you have to try. Maybe a good majority of the Salidar AS would screw their heads on right after Egwene's failed attempt in this, whether she continues to be Amyrlin or not. But no, she goes off to besiege the White Tower, instead of doing ANYTHING AT ALL with Rand himself.

Look at it from the characters' perspective. They don't have much time left before the Last Battle. Not much at all. They know this. Now, let's say you know for a fact you have 2 years left until the LB. I would still be RUNNING to support and help Rand, prepare for the LB, all the things I said in my other post. It's not as if the LB isn't going to be tough as hell even if you had 10 years to prepare. The problem with your opinions in this regard is that other than discussing what Egwene SHOULD DO, you write this stuff with the knowledge that these are only books. Like most books and movies for these kinds of cases, the "good guys" (for this discussion, Aes Sedai), pull their shit together in the last month or week and charge in guns blazing. Relatively easy to claim the Aes Sedai should take their time that is running down to the wire and patch up the White Tower, while at the same time flipping Rand the bird, because in the back of your head you assume (if not "know") everything is going to be just peachy in the end.

Now take the perspective of the characters in the book, that don't think it's a book. Now what do you think the Aes Sedai should do? Your world has a very real chance of ending incredibly soon and these stupid Aes Sedai are still bickering and fighting amongst themselves like children, as if a united White Tower means jack squat in regards to the Last Battle. Why would it? Does having a united Tower suddenly instill super-morale in the Aes Sedai, causing them to be able to go for days at a time throwing fireballs at Trollocs without stopping? Is a united Tower that important for some sort of sappy symbolism that it imparts on fighting men?

Does a united Tower suddenly and magically turn all Aes Sedai into extremely rational people that would just LOVE to support and assist the Dragon Reborn in every way possible in the hopes that the world's children may just have a future? Hell no. The Aes Sedai have to do that themselves. If this story was real life instead of in books, the odds are overwhelming that by the time the Last Battle comes, the Aes Sedai would in general wouldn't even take part, at least until the end, when there's a great chance the battle is already lost beyond hope. The best you could hope for is that after a couple days of fighting, random handfuls of AS that could Travel would go join the fighting. True, the DR and the Bore are probably be the primary component of the Last Battle, but that's no excuse for the Aes Sedai.

As for your part about Rand attacking Elaida, I'm pretty sure I mentioned something alluding to Egwene could have Elaida assassinated. Even if Rand did attack and assassinate Elaida, so what? Don't you think a good majority of AS may just understand? If the AS would have been even remotely civil towards Rand in the first place, I see np with killing Elaida. I do realize the main reason all this has gone on has been because Aes Sedai in general are almost impossible to deal with due to the things I mentioned earlier. Worst-case scenario, the AS are "not pleased at all" with Rand if he assassinated Elaida...but what the hell difference is there between that and what really happened? Maybe killing Elaida would wake a few of them up, make them realize the stakes.

Rand a role model? Absolutely not. But we are talking about the fate of the world, not a guide to being a standup guy or discussing whether or not Rand would be a fabulous babysitter to impart good morals and judgment on the kids while the parents are away. He's the Dragon Reborn.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I think first Egwene needed to be more than a puppet. She has achieved that with her war powers, but they don't apply here. Getting AS to do what they do not want to do is pretty dangerous. To lead the AS, she has to be one first. In heart and soul.Just as Rand has to be one of the Seafolk, in heart and soul? Which means that, just as any other Seafolk male channeler, he has to be drowned?
That doesn't really make sense, does it? Egwene could have led the AS without being fully committed to the idea that every man is an idiot who shouldn't be allowed to make any decisions at all.

It was the issue of Rand that led to Suian's deposition in the first place and eventually the split. Your suggestion would only serve to worsen the split further and help the shadow, not Rand.Well, perhaps the AS have simply outlived their usefulness. Discovering that before TG instead of during that battle, when the future of future (time would end if they lost) is in the balance, might be worth a couple of bruised AS egos.

What do you think would have happened if Rand had attacked Elaida after Dumai wells as some hinted? AS will see it as an attack on all AS not just Elaida. Bad business.Good question. So let's see. Rand hops to Tear, draws Callandor out of the stone he stuck it in, hops to Tar Valon, dissolves the fundaments of the White Tower, bringing the whole structure crashing down just as the Twin Towers on 9/11, and then Rand announces to the world that Elaida annoyed him severely, and she paid for it.
What would the other AS do, then? Would they try for a war of annihilation against the DR, in which they would have no chance of survival at all (if they kill him, they die too) or would they be shocked into actually using their brains just for once?
I'm betting on the first option, but it might have been worth a try.

Can you see Rand as a role model? Until he is fit to follow, its a tall order for Egwene to do.The Tairens manage it. Is Egwene that much more stupid than Weiramon?

Great. And the BA would know every move Rand made, and by now he'd be in the hands of the forsaken with serious losses to AS and ashaman.If and only if Rand told all those AS precisely what he was planning and why he wanted to do that.
If, on the other hand, he had simply stationed two groups of 13 AS with the army in Tear, then the same impression of a giant hammer coming against Sammael would have remained, a lot of men could have been saved who now died, and Sammael could still have been taken by precisely the same ploy that worked in the books.

At least until now, Egwene and the AS loyal to her have been less useful to Rand than Taim and the Asha'man loyal to him have been. Considering the fact that Taim is a DF who occasionally orders assasination attempts against Rand, that's not a very great endorsement of Egwene's dedication to the Light.

[GonzoTheGreat]

When Elaida's embassy reached Cairhien, the AS started talking to nobles with vague hints of what would happen once al'Thor had gone away. That makes sense, considering their plans. They wanted to be sure that they had a firm grip on whoever would get the throne.
When the Salidar embassy reached Caemlyn, the AS started talking to nobles with vague hints of what would happen once al'Thor had gone away. This makes a lot less sense, though. First, because they had no real reason to think Rand would leave at all before TG. And second, because they had no reason to favor anyone else than Elayne for that throne. And third, because such meddling might very well spook Rand and make him question their motives. They knew that he was the most important target for them there (which is why they decided to ignore the Black Tower), so they shouldn't start creating distractions that would make Rand distrust them when he found out about them.

And I am really wondering why Aran'gar (Halima) did not make a far more serious effort to kill Mat when both of them were in Salidar. Aran'gar knew that he was a ta'veren with a close link to Rand (which is why Delana tried to get him as a Warder), and that Mat had some protection against the OP.

[Toss the dice]

And I am really wondering why Aran'gar (Halima) did not make a far more serious effort to kill Mat when both of them were in Salidar. Aran'gar knew that he was a ta'veren with a close link to Rand (which is why Delana tried to get him as a Warder), and that Mat had some protection against the OP.

I'm surprised that the Forsaken as a whole haven't tried more times as well. Anath (Semirhage) had plenty of opportunity to kill Mat in Ebou Dar, but apparently didn't know him from Adam. This was made clear in KoD at the Forsaken meeting where Moridin tells the Forsaken to kill Mat and Perrin. Semirhage not knowing who Mat is earlier than this baffles me. It seems every Darkfriend, Myrddraal, and their mothers seems to know exactly who both Mat and Perrin are, and have virtually the entire series. Then again, during the Forsaken meeting, Semirhage just could've meant she didn't know to kill Mat in Ebou Dar, but still knew who he was. I'll have to reread that Forsaken meeting.

At any rate, after this latest Forsaken meeting and the order to kill both Mat and Perrin, we should see some interesting encounters probably as soon as the first book.

Ok, here's a bit from KoD during the Forsaken meeting:

"Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon,” Semirhage murmured, inspecting the two shapes. “So that is what they look like. Who knows, Moridin. If you had shared this with us before now, they might already have been dead."

So apparently Semirhage DIDN'T have any idea what Mat looked like before this.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It is possible that Semirhage never heard him called Mat. That may be what the whole "Toy" business was about. It is quite possible that she had simply dismissed him as Tylin's toyboy, and thus of no account at all.

However, Aran'gar definitely did know his name, that he was linked to Rand and that he was ta'veren.

[Neilbert]

And I am really wondering why Aran'gar (Halima) did not make a far more serious effort to kill Mat when both of them were in Salidar.

Goals of the Forsaken:

1. Self Preservation.
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.
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n: Serve the Dark One.

[greatwolf]

It is possible that Semirhage never heard him called Mat. That may be what the whole "Toy" business was about. It is quite possible that she had simply dismissed him as Tylin's toyboy, and thus of no account at all.

However, Aran'gar definitely did know his name, that he was linked to Rand and that he was ta'veren.

Arangar channeled at Mat and realized how effective his/her channeling was. I think she decided ton stay away thereafter.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Arangar channeled at Mat and realized how effective his/her channeling was. I think she decided ton stay away thereafter.Yeah, but I suspect there were a couple of DF Warders available, as well as plenty of DFs in the army there. So arranging for Mat to have a "gambling disagreement" shouldn't have been impossible, with no danger to Aran'gar herself.

[Toss the dice]

Yeah, but I suspect there were a couple of DF Warders available, as well as plenty of DFs in the army there. So arranging for Mat to have a "gambling disagreement" shouldn't have been impossible, with no danger to Aran'gar herself.

I agree. Also, it had to have been obvious to Halima that Mat had some sort of ter'angreal on his person that stops the OP. Obvious enough to plan something to get it from him physically, or at the very least identify it or where it was located on Mat. A ter'angreal that stops flows of the Power would be a HUGE find to one of the Forsaken. Worth a little extra planning I would think.

While I agree that self-preservation seems to be the top priority of the Forsaken, planning to get Mat's ter'angreal away from him would be very little risk (to Halima) for the potential enormous reward. For one, Halima channels saidin, has a body of a woman, and is no more than a supposed assistant. And like you mentioned, I'm sure there are plenty of DFs at her disposal, whether in Salidar or out.

[Neilbert]

Yeah, but I suspect there were a couple of DF Warders available, as well as plenty of DFs in the army there. So arranging for Mat to have a "gambling disagreement" shouldn't have been impossible, with no danger to Aran'gar herself.

Yes, but does Aran'gar have any way of contacting them? Forsaken have mentioned other Forsaken having more extensive contacts among friends of the Dark, so not being able to find darkfriends to do your work is a potential obstacle. Aran'gar didn't choose Delana, she was set up by Shaidar Haran, so it's likely (and fits the narritive) that she hasn't done the groundwork to have a network set up among the Salidar Aes Sedai.

Also, IIRC Mat wasn't in Salidar very long, which adds another layer of difficulty.

[GonzoTheGreat]

He was there a couple of days, and Aran'gar had been there longer than that. That was long enough to let her get at least some contacts with local DF chapters, and long enough to order them into action, if she so choose.

Remember too that this was not their first encounter. Even though Mat didn't remember it, they had met before, at the Eye of the World.
And if Aran'gar had been uncertain whether or not killing Mat was on the menu, then a quick trip to the Pit of Doom could have cleared that up.

[Weird Harold]

He was there a couple of days, and Aran'gar had been there longer than that. That was long enough to let her get at least some contacts with local DF chapters, and long enough to order them into action, if she so choose.

Even if Halima hadn't been there long enough to link into the general DF Network or BA cell structure, Delana certainly had been and Halima should be able to get more BA contacts from Alviarin via Mesaana.

It would be more evidence of the general imcompetence of the Shadow if she had been sent into the SAS without more contacts than Delana, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Delana was her only contact and that Delana was "out in the cold" as far as BA and DF connections go, but it would be an incredibly stupid way of organizing a sabotage mission.

[Neilbert]

No arguments there, but I do recall Black Ajah being pretty contemptuous of non channeling Darkfriends. There is the whole "if the beggar gave the right signs you would be on your knees" deal, but they do push the envelope as far as they can.

My take was that Halima was feeling rather comfortable with her disguise. Short of an alliance with the Black Tower, which she was pushing Delana to oppose, she felt free to act with impunity. It was only after the whole residue reading thing came about that anyone suspected Saidin was involved, and even then she was probably snickering behind her hand the whole time and feeling on top of the world.

If you recall from "At the Gardens", Egwene was Aran'gar's "charge", and she felt that she had Egwene well in hand. While is would have been prudent to establish or make contact with friends of the dark, the Forsaken are seldom prudent, they seldom think ahead, and when they do it's usually very self centered thinking ahead.

[Toss the dice]

Regardless of Halima's orders, intentions, or missions for herself, I still find it incredible that for all practical purposes she completely forgot about Mat.

As a whole, the Forsaken have been almost frantically searching for stasis boxes, caches of items of the Power, angreal, and anything related that can give them an edge. An edge both vs the Light and vs other Forsaken. The impression at least I get is that at the very least, juggling both the current "mission" and striving for these types of self-centered goals is very much normal among the Forsaken and even tackled VERY willingly.

To Halima's eyes, while there could be a few possibilities I'm sure that could explain her weaves melting when they touched Mat (including ta'veren I suppose), the overwhelming winner would almost have to be that he had a ter'angreal that did it. Even if all it did was stop a certain type of Saidin weaves, that ter'angreal would be priceless to Halima. She would have thought all this through within about 2 minutes after channeling at Mat.

Now, I realize she may not have had a good opportunity to steal or plan something regarding the obvious ter'angreal in Mat's possession while he was in Salidar, but it is virtually guaranteed she has access to plenty of DFs, trollocs, whatever through whatever sort of networks she could use from Salidar. I'm curious to know whether or not she could have known or found out through "halfway legit" means as to where Mat and the others went. I am unsure what Delana knew or had access to. Maybe there was no way for her to "easily" find out he had went to Ebou Dar. Obviously she has plenty of "unlegit or unclean" methods that would be more risky in finding that information out, but maybe she wasn't willing to risk her work in Salidar to do that.

Who knows, maybe it all boiled down to that. Her not willing to risk her mission by taking action while he was in Salidar and not willing to risk her mission by finding out where he went to. Which at least to me shouts that she is deathly afraid of Moridin.

If not for that, knowing how the Forsaken are, I would completely expect Halima to attempt to simply take it from Mat while he was in Salidar, by whatever means necessary. That probably entails killing anyone close to Mat (probably while he is sleeping) with Saidin, maybe using DFs if she knew of any in Salidar, and even using Compulsion if there weren't enough DF strongarms to physically take the foxhead from Mat. Then getting the hell out of there with her prize.

[GonzoTheGreat]

On the morning after the dancing incident, Delana was the very first AS to try to get Mat to become her Warder. When they actually were preparing to go to Ebou Dar, Egwene showed up with the whole Hall of the Tower in tow, and the only one Mat recognised in that bunch was Delana.

So I would say that Halima did try to come up with some scheme to get control of Mat (bonding him as a Warder), and that Delana knew where he had gone and with whom.

[GonzoTheGreat]

LoC, Beyond the Gate, Chapter 46

Shaking, Rand got up and refilled his goblet, draining the punch in one long swallow. Sweat dripped from his face, and his shirt clung to him. Finding the concentration again was an effort. Lews Therin was growing more persistent. One thing was certain. If Merana was plotting with the nobles, especially the nobles ready to declare rebellion if he did not produce Elayne soon enough to satisfy them, then he did have to do something. Unfortunately, he had no idea what.He could point out to those nobles that Merana was an emissary from AS who stayed in Salidar. He could, on top of that, tell them that Elayne was with those AS. Finally, he could point out that if they wanted Elayne to appear, then they could pressure those AS to let her come. And, if the AS balked at that, then they could start spreading rumors how AS were holding Elayne hostage.

The nobles probably wouldn't go so far as that last. But having them look to the AS (who stopped Elayne from going to Caemlyn) instead of to Rand (who wanted her to go there) wouldn't have been a bad idea at all.
LoC, Beyond the Gate, Chapter 46

Right then all she was interested in was the Origan Gate, a great white marble arch in the gleaming white wall, the stream of people, carts and wagons passing through it watched by a dozen Aielmen she suspected were not so desultory as they appeared at first glance. They might recognize an Aes Sedai on sight. Surprising people did sometimes. Besides, she had been followed from The Crown of Roses; those coats and breeches made to fade into rock and brush stood out on a city street. So even had she wanted to enter the Inner City, even had she been willing to risk Merana’s wrath by entering without first asking al’Thor’s permission, she would not have. How that did gall, Aes Sedai being required to ask a man’s permission. All she wanted was a sight of one Milam Harnder, Second Librarian in the Royal Palace, and her agent for nearly thirty years.
The library in the Palace here could not compare with that in the White Tower, or the Royal Library in Cairhien, or the Terhana Library in Bandar Eban, but she might as well wish to fly as for access to one of those. Still, if her message had reached Milam, he would have begun searching for the books she wanted. The Palace library might well have some information about the Seals on the Dark One’s prison, perhaps even cataloged sources, though that might be too much to hope. Most libraries had volumes lying in corners that should have been recorded long ago yet somehow had remained forgotten for a hundred years, or five hundred, sometimes even more. Most libraries held treasures even the librarians did not suspect.Ook!
I wonder how the AS would react, if they saw the Unseen University Librarian ambling through their 13th Depository.

I have to admit that this isn't a very plot related musing, though.

[Neilbert]

but it is virtually guaranteed she has access to plenty of DFs, trollocs, whatever through whatever sort of networks she could use from Salidar.

I would imagine it's going to be harder to find Darkfriends in a town packed with Aes Sedai, sure there's gotta be a few, but I would put it at well below average, and you also have to consider that any act of violence or theft against Mat might fail (he is a stone cold badass) and also he's surrounded by soldiers and Aes Sedai, who might not take kindly to Mat being roughed up.

Aran'gar would pretty much have to steal the medallion, and considering that Mat eats, sleeps, and bathes with the thing on, that's a rather tall order.

As for the trollocs? There's enough reasons that's a bad idea that I'm not even going to bother.