Who killed the blight?

[greatwolf]

I'd like to ask TLers a question from EotW (unfortunately one of many). I cant post a quote now, but Moiraine spoke of having delivered a great blow at the shadow in the end. Her impression was obviously reinforced by the way the blight receded and natural order was restored so quickly. So she seems to think it was the result of the blow Rand struck at Ishamael.

But that doesn't sound right at all. Sure Ishamael might be linked to the DO in such a manner that his death would somehow affect the DO himself but its very doubtful it would be to the extent of making the blight recede. (Besides Moiraine couldn't have known Ishy was linked to the DO).

An easier explanation would be that Loial's tree singing in the eye brought about those effects. But could Loial have done so much alone and unaided? The effect was almost global in scope covering at least the borderlands if not the whole continent. No one seemed to attribute it to that though, and even the Nym seemed to find it difficult to keep the blight out much less extending his reach so far.

So who/what was responsible?

E: These are some of the quotes I wanted for this thread initially. Sorry its rather late.

The Green Man sighed, the wind sighing through thick-leafed branches. "Then it has come again. That
memory remains whole. The Dark One stirs. I have feared it. Every turning of years, the Blight strives harder to
come inside, and this turn the struggle to keep it out has been greater than ever since the beginning. Come, I will
take you."

With a groan like a limb breaking under too great a weight, the Green Man crashed to the ground. Half
his head was charred black. Tendrils of smoke still rose from him, like gray creepers. Burned leaves fell from
his arm as he painfully stretched out his blackened hand to gently cup an acorn.
The earth rumbled as an oak seedling pushed up between his fingers. The Green Man's head fell, but the
seedling reached for the sun, straining. Roots shot out and thickened, delved beneath the ground and rose again,
thickened more as they sank. The trunk broadened and stretched upward, bark turning gray and fissured and
ancient. Limbs spread and grew heavy, as big as arms, as big as men, and lifted to caress the sky, thick with
green leaves, dense with acorns. The massive web of roots turned the earth like plows as it spread; the already
huge trunk shivered, grew wider, round as a house. Stillness came. And an oak that could have stood five
hundred years covered the spot where the Green Man had been, marking the tomb of a legend. Nynaeve lay on
the gnarled roots, grown curved to her shape, to make a bed for her to rest upon. The wind sighed through the
oak's branches; it seemed to murmur farewell.
Even Aginor seemed stunned. Then his head lifted, cavernous eyes burning with hate. "Enough! It is
past time to end this!"

The flash faded, and he was alone in the chamber with Ba'alzamon. Ba'alzamon's eyes burned like the
Pit of Doom, but he shied back from the sword as if it truly were the Light itself.
"Fool! You will destroy yourself! You cannot wield it so, not yet! Not until I teach you!"
"It is ended," Rand said, and he swung the sword at Ba'alzamon's black cord. Ba'alzamon screamed as
the sword fell, screamed till the stone walls trembled, and the endless howl redoubled as the blade of Light
severed the cord. The cut ends rebounded apart as if they had been under tension. The end stretching into the
nothingness outside began to shrivel as it sprang away; the other whipped back into Ba'alzamon, hurling him
against the fireplace. There was silent laughter in the soundless shrieks of the tortured faces. The walls shivered
and cracked; the floor heaved, and chunks of stone crashed to the floor from the ceiling.
As all broke apart around him, Rand pointed the sword at Ba'alzamon's heart. "It is ended!"
Light lanced from the blade, coruscating in a shower of fiery sparks like droplets of molten, white metal.
Wailing, Ba'alzamon threw up his arms in a vain effort to shield himself. Flames shrieked in his eyes, joining
with other flames as the stone ignited, the stone of the cracking walls, the stone of the pitching floor, the stone
showering from the ceiling. Rand felt the bright thread attached to him thinning, till only the glow itself
remained, but he strained harder, not knowing what he did, or how, only that this had to be ended. It has to be
ended!
Fire filled the chamber, a solid flame. He could see Ba'alzamon withering like a leaf, hear him howling,
feel the shrieks grating on his bones. The flame became pure, white light, brighter than the sun. Then the last
flicker of the thread was gone, and he was falling through endless black and Ba'alzamon's fading howl.
Something struck him with tremendous force, turning him to jelly, and the jelly shook and screamed
from the fire raging inside, the hungry cold burning without end.

awn revealed devastation in the Green Man's garden. The ground was thick with fallen leaves, almost
knee-deep in places. All the flowers were gone except a few clinging desperately to the edge of the
clearing. Little could grow in the soil under an oak, but a thin circle of flowers and grass centered on
the thick trunk above the Green Man's grave. The oak itself retained only half its leaves, and that was far more
than any other tree had, as if some remnant of the Green Man still fought to hold there. The cool breezes had
died, replaced by a growing sticky heat, the butterflies were gone, the birds silent. It was a silent group who
prepared to leave.
Rand climbed into the bay's saddle with a sense of loss. It shouldn't he this way. Blood and ashes, we
won!
"I wish he had found his other place," Egwene said as she mounted Bela. A litter, fashioned by Lan, was
slung between the shaggy mare and Aldieb, to carry Moiraine; Nynaeve would ride beside with the white mare's
reins. The Wisdom dropped her eyes whenever she saw Lan glance at her, avoiding his gaze; the Warder looked
at her whenever her eyes were averted, but he would not speak to her. No one had to ask who Egwene meant.
"It is not right," Loial said, staring at the oak. The Ogier was the only one still not mounted. "It is not
right that Treebrother should fall to the Blight." He handed the reins of his big horse to Rand. "Not right."
Lan opened his mouth as the Ogier walked to the great oak. Moiraine, lying on the litter, weakly raised
her hand, and the Warder said nothing.
Before the oak, Loial knelt, closing his eyes and stretching out his arms. The tufts on his ears stood
straight as he lifted his face to the sky. And he sang.
Rand could not say if there were words, or if it was pure song. In that rumbling voice it was as if the
earth sang, yet he was sure he heard the birds trilling again, and spring breezes sighing softly, and the sound of
butterfly wings. Lost in the song, he thought it lasted only minutes, but when Loial lowered his arms and
opened his eyes, he was surprised to see the sun stood well above the horizon. It had been touching the trees
when the Ogier began. The leaves still on the oak seemed greener, and more firmly attached than before. The
flowers encircling it stood straighter, the morningstars white and fresh, the loversknots a strong crimson.
Mopping sweat from his broad face, Loial rose and took his reins from Rand. His long eyebrows
drooped, abashed, as if they might think he had been showing off. "I've never sung so hard before. I could not
have done it if something of Treebrother was not still there. My Treesongs do not have his power." When he
settled himself in his saddle, there was satisfaction in the look he gave the oak and the flowers. "This little
space, at least, will not sink into the Blight. The Blight will not have Treebrother


He half expected they would have to fight their way out as they fought their way in, but the Blight was
as quiet and still as death. Not a single branch trembled as if to lash at them, nothing screamed or howled,
neither nearby nor in the distance. The Blight seemed to crouch, not to pounce, but as if it had been struck a
great blow and waited for the next to fall. Even the sun was less red.
When they passed the necklace of lakes, the sun hung not far past its zenith. Lan kept them well away
from the lakes and did not even look at them, but Rand thought the seven towers seemed taller than when he
first saw them. He was sure the jagged tops were further from the ground, and above them something almost
seen, seamless towers gleaming in the sun, and banners with Golden Cranes flying on the wind. He blinked and
stared, but the towers refused to vanish completely. They were there at the edge of vision until the Blight hid the
lakes once more.
Before sunset the Warder chose a campsite, and Moiraine had Nynaeve and Egwene help her up to set
wards. The Aes Sedai whispered in the other women's ears before she began. Nynaeve hesitated, but when
Moiraine closed her eyes, all three women did so together.
Rand saw Mat and Perrin staring, and wondered how they could be surprised. Every woman is an Aes
Sedai, he thought mirthlessly. The Light help me, so am I. Bleakness held his tongue.
"Why is it so different?" Perrin asked as Egwene and the Wisdom helped Moiraine to her bed. "It feels .
. ." His thick shoulders shrugged as if he could not find the word.
"We struck a mighty blow at the Dark One," Moiraine replied, settling herself with a sigh. "The Shadow
will be a long time recovering."
"How?" Mat demanded. "What did we do?"
"Sleep," Moiraine said. "We are not out of the Blight yet."
But the next morning, still nothing changed that Rand could see. The Blight faded as they rode south, of
course. Twisted trees were replaced by straight. The stifling heat diminished. Rotting foliage gave way to the
merely diseased. And then not diseased, he realized. The forest around them became red with new growth, thick
on the branches. Buds sprouted on the undergrowth, creepers covered the rocks with green, and new
wildflowers dotted the grass as thick and bright as where the Green Man walked. It was as if spring, so long
held back by winter, now raced to catch up to where it should be.
He was not the only one who stared. "A mighty blow," Moiraine murmured, and would say no more.
Climbing wildrose entwined the stone column marking the Border. Men came out of the watchtowers to
greet them. There was a stunned quality to their laughter, and their eyes shone with amaze, as if they could not
believe the new grass under their steel-clad feet.

[Sarevok]

I think you'll have to give that quote... I have no idea what you're talking about.... :confused:

[Weird Harold]

...Moiraine spoke of having delivered a great blow at the shadow in the end. Her impression was obviously reinforced by the way the blight receded and natural order was restored so quickly. So she seems to think it was the result of the blow Rand struck at Ishamael.
...
So who/what was responsible?

Rand was responsible. His "great blow to the Shadow" was probably more the destruction of the Shadowspawn Horde in Tarwin's Gap than his defeat of Ba'alzamon, but I'm not sure that Moiraine even knew about the destruction of the Shadowspawn Horde.

The way that Rand defeated Ba'alzamon might have caused a backlash to both Ishamael and the DO when he parted the pulsing black rope to Ba'alzamon (not to be confused with the black cords he cut away from Asmo) but I think the loss of a few hundred thousand subjects (Shadowspawn) reduced the DO's influence by a significant percentage.

[tworiverswoman]

It's been so long since I read book one I'm real hazy on the details, but I thinks she's talking about when the Green Man died, and Loial sang his body into bloom -- the blight receded in that area. I have no idea where the "nearly global in scope" business is coming from.

[Weird Harold]

It's been so long since I read book one I'm real hazy on the details, but I thinks she's talking about when the Green Man died, and Loial sang his body into bloom -- the blight receded in that area. I have no idea where the "nearly global in scope" business is coming from.

We don't get confirmation that it's "near global in scope" until TSR Ch 17:

Siuan shook her head wearily. "Another thing to worry about. Starvation in Cairhien. A sister missing in Tarabon. Trolloc raids increasing in the Borderlands again. This fool who calls himself the Prophet, stirring up riots in Ghealdan. He's apparently preaching that the Dragon has been Reborn as a Shienaran lord," she said incredulously. "Even the small things are bad. The war in Arad Doman has stopped trade from Saldaea, and the pinch is making unrest in Maradon. Tenobia may even be forced off the throne by it. The only good news I have heard is that the Blight has retreated for some reason. Two miles or more of green beyond the borderstones, without a hint of corruption or pestilence, all the way from Saldaea to Shienar. The first time in memory it has done that. But I suppose good news has to be balanced by bad. When a boat has one leak it is sure to have others. I only wish it was a balance. Leane, have the watch on Logain increased. I can't see what trouble he could cause now, but I do not want to find out." She turned those piercing blue eyes on Min. "Why did you come flapping up here with this like a startled gull? Logain could have waited. The man is hardly likely to find power and glory before sunset."


Theobservations in tEotW aren't really conclusive as to the Blight "retreating," just that is calmer, quieter, than when they were going into the Blight:
They rode in a single file, with Mat behind the Warder where he could use his bow to effect if needed, and Perrin bringing up the rear with his axe across the pommel of his saddle. They crested a hill, and in an eyeblink the Blight was all around them, twisted and rotted in virulent rainbow hues. Rand looked over his shoulder, but the Green Man's garden was nowhere to be seen. Only the Blight stretching behind them as before. Yet he thought, just for a moment, that he saw the towering top of the oak tree, green and lush, before it shimmered and was gone. Then there was only the Blight.

He half expected they would have to fight their way out as they fought their way in, but the Blight was as quiet and still as death. Not a single branch trembled as if to lash at them, nothing screamed or howled, neither nearby nor in the distance. The Blight seemed to crouch, not to pounce, but as if it had been struck a great blow and waited for the next to fall. Even the sun was less red.

There is a lot more observations of the Blight on the trip out, including Moiraine's explantion of striking the Shadow "a mighty blow," but Rand's initial observation of "quiet and still" pretty much sums up the immediate changes.

[Matoyak]

Having read that book about 2 weeks ago, there was a bit where Rand notices that the trees are not as menacing, and not as twisted. Things don't look as sick on the way back, and spring magically came across the world. IIRC there was a bit about the blight seeming to draw into itself, even if not receding per say. Unfortunately, I do not have the book meself (I let someone borrow it) So I can't find the quote.

It happens after the one you posted, I'm pretty sure.

[greatwolf]

We don't get confirmation that it's "near global in scope" until TSR Ch 17...

...Theobservations in tEotW aren't really conclusive as to the Blight "retreating," just that is calmer, quieter, than when they were going into the Blight:

Thanks WH, those quotes are better than the ones I was thinking of in EotW.

However it still doesn't tell me why though.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Perhaps the Eye Of The World was useful for more than merely acting as a sort of sa'angreal? It may be that pushing back the Blight was its real purpose, and everything else was just a bonus.

[Mort]

The Cycle of the Dragon,[/I] author unknown, the Fourth Age]

And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and great sword of Justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.



[quote=The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termendal, of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 300]

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

[/quote


There are indications in the prophecies that The dragon reborn is tied to the physical land/world somehow. It could of course be something else but I'd like to think that the land suffers when Rand suffers and vice versa. Radn struck a blow right in the heart of the dark in the Blight. So the blight receeded a little.

[greatwolf]

. Radn struck a blow right in the heart of the dark in the Blight. So the blight receeded a little.

Radn struck a blow in what? And the blight receded? How?

[Weird Harold]

Having read that book about 2 weeks ago, there was a bit where Rand notices that the trees are not as menacing, and not as twisted. Things don't look as sick on the way back, and spring magically came across the world. IIRC there was a bit about the blight seeming to draw into itself, even if not receding per say. Unfortunately, I do not have the book meself (I let someone borrow it) So I can't find the quote.

It happens after the one you posted, I'm pretty sure.

That's part of the bit I posted the first section of, (the return from the Blight,) but it is more about the changes as they get closer to the Blight Border and the signs of Spring returning than the character of the Blight itself.

That entire section at the end of tEotW is as much about Rand's perception of things being better as is is empirical observations of the Blight withdrawing.

[Weird Harold]

There are indications in the prophecies that The dragon reborn is tied to the physical land/world somehow. It could of course be something else but I'd like to think that the land suffers when Rand suffers and vice versa.

Those prophecies and TDR's connection to the Land aren't really relevant to the changes in the Blight in tEotW.

I do agree that Rand's and the health of the Land are synchronized, but Rand didn't get any healthier at tEotW, and his post-victory euphoria had long worn off by the time Siuan noted that the blight border had withdrawn across the entire borderlands.

[Weird Harold]

Thanks WH, those quotes are better than the ones I was thinking of in EotW.

However it still doesn't tell me why though.
It was a miracle, GW.

There is no logical explanation for Miracles, so we might as well say the Blight recoiled in fear of the Dragon Reborn. We'd have as much hard evidence for that theory as for any other explanation.

[Davian93]

Radn struck a blow in what? And the blight receded? How?

How does the Blight expand in the first place? That's the answer to both questions. The Blight is a physical (arguably) manifestation of the DO's touch on the world through Shayol Ghul. Or its simply the corrupting effect of the DO's touch as a result of the thinness in the pattern around SG.

[Neilbert]

It blurs the line between causality and metaphor, the Dark One's overall war effort took a blow, so the blight receded. Don't worry about it too much. I bet when the Bowl was used the Blight receded a touch, just like when Saidin was cleansed, (of course being near to the Day of Return might have counteracted these affects) even though there is no direct causal relationship.

Another possibility is that there was more going on at the Eye than we are privy to, and somehow the Eye was used to strike a direct blow at the Dark One without anyone really being aware of it.

E: Davian I think the problem that greatwolf is running into is one of cause and effect. There's no reason to believe that killing trollocs, or even slapping Ishamael around would have a direct affect on the Dark One, so it's a bit confusing if you think about it that way.

[greatwolf]

the Dark One's overall war effort took a blow, so the blight receded. ..

...E: Davian I think the problem that greatwolf is running into is one of cause and effect.

Yes, i am talking cause and effect. The sword of light Rand used didn't even kill Ishamael. How could it affect the DO in any way. Rand may have put a dent in the DO's war effort (I estimate 0.5% of trollocs killed at best) but how does that translate into the blight receding?

As said earlier, tree singin is about the best I could come up with. But it doesn't add up. How could Loial do it over such a wide area? He didn't have any angreal:D

[Neilbert]

Rand may have put a dent in the DO's war effort (I estimate 0.5% of trollocs killed at best) but how does that translate into the blight receding?

You answered your own question. When dealing with gods the line between metaphor and reality gets really blurry.

PS: It might have been a much larger % of Trollocs. They breed like rabbits so are pretty much disposable. It was enough of a force that the Shinerians didn't think they had a chance, so that's saying something.

The blight receded because they put a dent in the DO's war effort. There doesn't really need to be a cause and effect relationship, but that doesn't technically rule it out. Something important about the Eye might be revealed in the next book(s).

[Davian93]

I believe Lord Agelmar stated something like he would be outnumbered at least 10 to 1 or even 20 to 1 at Tarwin's Gap. Or perhaps that was Rand's observation when he traveled there during his battle at the Eye. Either way, if the Borderlanders can quite easily put a force of 200 K troops together and read the blightborder "safe for anything before another Trolloc Wars" then how big does that make the military manpower of Shienar? Figure Saldaea is by far the largest Borderland nation in size and population...maybe 100K of that force and then figure that the other 3 are divided equally (around 30-40 K each) so you have a expeditionary force of 30-40 K. If its a 100% callup like Tarwin's Gap had to of been, you gotta figure double that at a minimum. So figure 10-20 times 80 K (i.e. 800 K - 1.6 million trollocs) at that battle alone.

That seems a tad high but it could very well be realistic when you consider Rand and Co took out over 100 K in trollocs/myrdraal in KoD without too much issue.

[greatwolf]

the Blight has retreated for some reason. Two miles or more of green beyond the borderstones, without a hint of corruption or pestilence, all the way from Saldaea to Shienar. The first time in memory it has done that..

Two things here. First the reason for the blight's recession is both unknown and unprecedented. Two, the area affected. Both in terms of size and quality.

Ordinarily, it is assumed that the blight is a manifestation of DO's influence in the world. If he is caged, no blight and if he is free, global blight with all the different shades between. At least in simple terms. But the assumption is that it is a passive influence that the DO does not voluntarily control.

If so, the recession of the blight would mean that the DO's influnce is waning or at least being countered by some force. We know from later events that the DO is not weaker but stronger (the drought, more seals weakening, etc ) so we may assume an outside force is responsible or that the DO is able to voluntarily repress this effect.

Chapter 53
The Wheel Turns
They rode in a single file, with Mat behind the Warder where he could use his bow to effect if needed, and Perrin bringing up the rear with his axe across the pommel of his saddle. They crested a hill, and in an eyeblink the Blight was all around them, twisted and rotted in virulent rainbow hues. Rand looked over his shoulder, but the Green Man's garden was nowhere to be seen. Only the Blight stretching behind them as before. Yet he thought, just for a moment, that he saw the towering top of the oak tree, green and lush, before it shimmered and was gone. Then there was only the Blight.

He half expected they would have to fight their way out as they fought their way in, but the Blight was as quiet and still as death. Not a single branch trembled as if to lash at them, nothing screamed or howled, neither nearby nor in the distance. The Blight seemed to crouch, not to pounce, but as if it had been struck a great blow and waited for the next to fall. Even the sun was less red..

I dont really see the DO being able to tell the blight flora not to attack rand and co. So that knocks out voluntary repression IMO.

So what force repressed the blight? Rand's sword of light is a poor candidate, I think. The eye is a much better choice mainly because we are ignorant of what it really is:confused: If the eye could hurt the DO, then Rand missed a great opportunity and tactical loss. Besides why didn't those who made it use it?

Either way, if the Borderlanders can quite easily put a force of 200 K troops together .

Not easily, not even close. They were risking every thing by taking those troops away but felt they didn't have any choice. And the number of troops at TGap was much smaller consisting mainly of those from fal dara and environs. They knew they couldn't get reinforecements on time and were only fighting to buy time in a place where a few men could do most good. I'd say 20,000men max. IIRC, there were more fades in the KoD attack than at TG.

But what really matters is that the numbers are insignificant compared to what the DO has in reserve and should be no great cause for discomfort. And more death surely never harmed the DO. Quite the opposite.

[Davian93]

tEotW states that Agelmar was just one small snake meeting up with other snakes from all the border forts as well as that of the King and his sons from Fal Moran. I would guess it was pretty much a 100% callup. The king and his advisors had the entire winter of raids to realize as well as advanced scouting. Considering that forewarning as well as their completely militarized society, there is no reason that a majority of their military was not at the Gap for the battle.

[GonzoTheGreat]

TEOTW, Fal Dara, Chapter 46

"Kandor, Arafel, Saldaea – the Trollocs raided them all straight through the winter. Nothing like that has happened since the Trolloc Wars; the raids have never been so fierce, or so large, or pressed home so hard. Every king and council is sure a great thrust is coming out of the Blight, and every one of the Borderlands believes it is coming at them. None of their scouts, and none of the Warders, report Trolloc massing above their borders, as we have here, but they believe, and each is afraid to send fighting men elsewhere. People whisper that the world is ending, that the Dark one is loose again. Shienar will ride to Tarwin's Gap alone, and we will be outnumbered at least ten to one. At least. It may be the last Ingathering of the Lances.He quite explicitly says "Shienar", not just "Fal Dara". That suggests rather strongly that it is indeed the full strength of the whole country.

[greatwolf]

That suggests rather strongly that it is indeed the full strength of the whole country.

Even then, how would any number of trollocs lost there affect the DO? Enough for him to loose his grip on the blight for about 1year or more after?

Besides if Rand killed a million trollocs at TG, nothing could have kept him hidden. Or even half a million.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I don't think that is what did it. At least, not on its own.
I think that the Blight is something like a piggy bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piggy_bank) for the DO: he can store energy in it, and draw it out again. After the defeats at the end of TEOTW he withdraw a large amoung of power from his storage, and used that for a number of purposes.
First, he saved Ishamael's life, and started regenerating him. That was important, obviously, since Ishamael has been his main champion all along.
Second, he broke enough of the Seal on the Bore to let all the other Forsaken run free.
Third, he started Global Warming. That took a long time to become really noticeable, of course. Still, it was faster than it is in the real world, where we're doing it ourselves.
Fourth, he had to start breeding more Trollocs in a hurry. I don't know how long that takes him (I think a handful of years or more per generation), but he could cut down on that by having large supplies of young ones available. They can grow up fast if needed, and otherwise they can become lunch for the mature Trollocs. I do admit that I don't know whether or not the DO has any influence on this, but I suspect that finding enough food for all those Trollocs in the high north will take some special trickery.

[Enigma]

Part of the DO's probmel is that his reach into the world is limited by the bore. The wider it is the more he can do. The Guide also hinted that the more chaos in the world = the DO gets stronger.

Now we know that the bore was pretty narrow at the begining. I think it was Demandred later on who commented that it was bigger that when he broke free but not as big as when he was first sealed away in the AoL.

If the DO's reach is limited in the early series Gonzo's piggy bank idea makes sense. Perhaps the DO has energy there he can withdraw or perhaps its the reverse and he needs to focus energy there to keep it in place. The blight is a twisting of the pattern. Going from memory I think one of the wise ones said that one cannot enter the blight in TAR.

The DO has lost his champion and has to put him on life support. With a limited ability to affect the world that takes time and effort. Second a major force of chaos i.e. a vast army of shadowspawn has just been wiped out. So the DO has to focus on rebuilding in his forces and increasing chaos by other means. More time and effort. He may or may not have helped the rest of the forsaken break free and shatter one of the seals. Even more time and effort. Lastly he starts to mess with the weather going from long winter to build up to an endless summer. That has got to take even more time and effort.

In summary the DO has a lot of things on his to do list and only so much influence/power to do it with. So he pulls some of his resources out of the blight to other task. What will loosing a few miles do anyway?

On the forces arranged against the Shadowspawn it was only the Shienar forces were there. Earlier the great captain told Moiraine and co that every borderland ruler thought the big push was comming at them and were keeping their armies in place at home to deal with it.

One last thing. Does anyone else find it odd that Rand who does not know what he is doing and is not at full strenght is able to wipe out a large portion of the Shadow's army with relative ease but a lot of books later after training from Asmodean and LTT, at full strenght and after numerous OP battles to hone his skills in Rand needs help to stop another shadow spawn army and even then its a close run thing.

[Neilbert]

Not at all, given how RJ described the eye in comparison to Nynaeve's well. (Liquid nitrogen canister to a glass of water IIRC)

The thing was almost like an angreal, or a sa'angreal.

[greatwolf]

If the DO's reach is limited in the early series Gonzo's piggy bank idea makes sense. Perhaps the DO has energy there he can withdraw or perhaps its the reverse and he needs to focus energy there to keep it in place.

Energy as in TP floating around freely? That has prospects though it'll be difficult to prove. But since the bore has gotten wider, why hasn't the blight begun reclaiming those lands? Or is the DO still reeling from that "blow". Maybe he's still sick. Seriously though, I can accept that the DO may be able to voluntarily decide how far the blight extends in some way. But the way the whole thing happened suggets it was not his doing. Especially in the immediate aftermath of events at the eye. He could have decided later not to tamper with what Rand (or perhaps Loial) did there.

Another factor is LT. Since it was Rand's pov, we don't have any idea what was channeled there. We know there was a lot of saidin (made by 100men IIRC) much more than needed for the blade of LT so there is a chance that LT did something else Rand was not aware of that affected the DO directly. But it still does not explain why it would remain unchanged for months after.

Is it I ask again, that the DO refrains from re establishing the blight or he cant (the WF were very certain the DO could not disrupt the weather again).

[Enigma]

Why is the DO not reestablishing the blight back those few miles?

Maybe the DO is focusing his efforts in destroying the last seals, building a super large army, developing a Fade 2.0 version and attacking the pattern so that the dead and past places are bleeding into the current reality.

On the idea of LTT attacking the DO directly I'm not saying it couldn't have happened but did LTT have any hint of control over Rand at that stage? I was under the impression that the first real sign that he was there at all was when he had his "and you loved power" scene with Lanfear much later.

[Neilbert]

Why is the DO not reestablishing the blight back those few miles?

Who says he hasn't? IIRC we haven't seen or heard mention of the blightborder since Bk 1, or 2 at the latest. We have no idea what is going on there at the moment.

I was under the impression that the first real sign that he was there at all was when he had his "and you loved power" scene with Lanfear much later.

It's the first "hit you in the face with how blatantly obvious it is" sign, but there were other signs much earlier.

It was not the valley itself that sapped his strength and filled the empty spaces left with helplessness. From the center of the furious vapors a mountain thrust upward, a mountain taller than any he had ever seen in the Mountains of Mist, a mountain as black as the loss of all hope. That bleak stone spire, a dagger stabbing at the heavens, was the source of his desolation. He had never seen it before, but he knew it. The memory of it flashed away like quicksilver when he tried to touch it, but the memory was there. He knew it was there.

[Davian93]

Would the Borderland rulers be so eager to head south with the bulk of their strength if the Blight rebounded and was growing South again? That's some very minor circumstantial evidence in favor of the Blight not rebounding.

[Neilbert]

True, and the Shadow seems to be going out of it's way to give off the impression that the Blight is quiet.

[Davian93]

True, and the Shadow seems to be going out of it's way to give off the impression that the Blight is quiet.

There is also that quote from the beginning of LoC where Demandred is observing SG and the lack of prisoners waiting to make Myrdraal swords as raiding into the Borderlands had been curtailed. There is every indication that the Blight is currently showing the quiet before the storm.

[Terez]

There's no need for them to advertise on the Blightborder when they've got the Ways at hand. That army that attacked Algarin's manor was no joke, despite not being quite enough to do the job.

[Neilbert]

Fourth, he had to start breeding more Trollocs in a hurry. I don't know how long that takes him (I think a handful of years or more per generation), but he could cut down on that by having large supplies of young ones available. They can grow up fast if needed, and otherwise they can become lunch for the mature Trollocs.

Trolloc females give birth to litters, and are very fierce defending their young, but I can't see Trollocs taking too long to mature because A: Aginor geneticly engineered them, so why not make them mature as fast as possible. and B: They would get eaten if they remained completely helpless for any length of time.

There's no need for them to advertise on the Blightborder when they've got the Ways at hand.

Well, I'm sure there's also logistical issues to consider. It's harder to move large groups through bridges and walkways followed by a single door then it is to march gigantic armies across the countryside. I would imagine that the main force would go south using normal means, and then as soon as the Light rallied to the Blight the Trollocs would start pouring through the ways. Likely in much smaller numbers, but properly timed it would be devastating.

[Terez]

Well, I'm sure there's also logistical issues to consider. It's harder to move large groups through bridges and walkways followed by a single door then it is to march gigantic armies across the countryside. I would imagine that the main force would go south using normal means, and then as soon as the Light rallied to the Blight the Trollocs would start pouring through the ways. Likely in much smaller numbers, but properly timed it would be devastating.
Well, my point was that the Ways are better for raids like the one on Algarin's manor, and it's assumed that the larger force is being held around Thakan'dar, far from the Blightborder, until it's time to unleash them. In other words, there is no real need at present to send raids via the usual route, and that's why the Border Guards haven't seen anything.

[Weird Harold]

Who says he hasn't? IIRC we haven't seen or heard mention of the blightborder since Bk 1, or 2 at the latest.

Do you even bother to read threads before you post?

Greatwolf and I both have posted the TSR Ch 17 quote in this thread, which is the only real reference to the Blight retreating. Last I checked, TSR is book 4.

I don't know if you're nitpicking and only looking for blight border references, instead of any reference to the status of the Blight, like the LOC reference Davian mentioned, but there are plenty of later indirect indications that the Blight isn't active or recovering the lost ground.

[Terez]

Do you even bother to read threads before you post?
I don't. Not lately anyway...

[GonzoTheGreat]

Is it I ask again, that the DO refrains from re establishing the blight or he cant (the WF were very certain the DO could not disrupt the weather again).I suspect that he simply can't be bothered to worry about the Blight. Considering the timescale on which TG is coming, the Blight can't grow far enough to make any sort of real contribution anyway. So he would do better to expend his energy in other ways.
On the other hand, in the very long build up to this situation (more than 3,000 years), he did not have anything better to spend the relatively low amounts of energy available on, and he could afford to use a long term approach because he didn't have any alternative anyway.

So to a large extend, the Blight has outlived its usefulness. Dismantling it isn't worthwhile, but expanding it is not necessary either.

[Enigma]

The blight did serve the function of an exclusion zone around shadow lands, at least before traveling became widespread. While soldiers can go into the blight the odds were very much against them. In effect it stopped any suggestion that the forces of the light would ever invade SG

As Gonzo's says now the DO does not really need it to go any further as he is nearly ready for his big push.

[greatwolf]

So to a large extend, the Blight has outlived its usefulness. Dismantling it isn't worthwhile, but expanding it is not necessary either.

The problem is, we're assuming that the DO can make the blight recede and expand at will. We've not determined that. Demandred's pov in LoC only suggests curiosity on his part as to the quietness along the borderlands. He didn't seem panicked at the prospect. That all I could dig up in favour of the assumption.

OTOH, it appeared that Rand's blow caused some instinctive recoil. Even the corruption of plant life was gone. Loial said he couldn't have done what he did if something of the nym was not still there, but it may be that the combined effort of the nym, ogier and eye resulted and an expanded zone for the eye. Remmeber, the DO was unable to penetrate the eye in the first place.

The eye was made in the early days of the breaking. Likely by AS from the aol. Possibly designed to get rid of the blight and the DO's corrupting influence once and for all. That may be why they left a nym in charge. But it doesn't account for why it was not used then or had to wait till a time of need or the banner and other stuff stashed away there.

Of note too, is the nym. He obviously surprised aginor, an expert in biology, with his 'transformation'. I assume it was not seen in the aol. Perhaps the nym had evolved over 3000years in the eye. Problem is, i'm rambling. I still see no clear conclusive evidence of what happened to the blight. Just a few strong possibilties.

BTW, the blight also acts as a protective moat around SG. Without it, the BLers might have launched attacks at SG long since. Lan seems to be taking the bait though.

[Davian93]

Hopefully Lan does better than his Uncle did...it was his uncle that died on the slopes of Thakander with 9,000 Malkieri, right?

[greatwolf]

Hopefully Lan does better than his Uncle did...it was his uncle that died on the slopes of Thakander with 9,000 Malkieri, right?

It seems odd that the loss of 9k men made such a difference to malkier when shienar had 100k men. Though it may be due to recent increases in the size of its army. Either way it doesn't add up to enough trollocs to give the DO a headache. I don't think we can consider any loss below 10-20% of all shadowspawn would be enough to catch the DO's notice. And probasbly 50% to produce a reflex from him.

[Davian93]

It seems odd that the loss of 9k men made such a difference to malkier when shienar had 100k men. Though it may be due to recent increases in the size of its army. Either way it doesn't add up to enough trollocs to give the DO a headache. I don't think we can consider any loss below 10-20% of all shadowspawn would be enough to catch the DO's notice. And probasbly 50% to produce a reflex from him.

It wasn't so much the number of the dead Malkieri but that it was probably their elite core as well as one of their top leaders dying for nothing. They were also betrayed (remember Cowin and Co attempted a coup) from within and had all their borderforts overrun before even taking the field against the Shadow. Thus, standing alone, they had no chance against a huge Trolloc hoard.

[greatwolf]

it was probably their elite core as well as one of their top leaders dying for nothing.

Likely true. Just that elite units tend not to be so large.

[Davian93]

Likely true. Just that elite units tend not to be so large.

The impression I've gotten from reading is that Malkier wasn't all that huge of a nation...the borders on the map (starting in LoC) do not seem very accurate nor do they gel up with what the BWB mentions for the extent of the blight. For all we know, Malkier, at the time of its demise, could very well have been the Delaware of the Borderlands. There is no way that its border extended that deep into the Mountains of Dhoom.

http://moderateinthemiddle.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/wot.jpg

[greatwolf]

well a small population would likely only support a small well trained army. And they'll also be quite experienced considering malkier's position. But malkier is not a sustainable proposition for a nation unless The blight is pushed back. So there was just motivation for the attack on SG but not for going without enough resources to win (that would inc AS IMO).

IIRC, the corruption that made the area uninhabitable is now gone and plants are thriving there despite the drought. It actually seems more like a permannet change than just a reflex, instinctive withdrawal by the DO. But then, as someone said, maybe that's what he wants the BLers to think.

[Weird Harold]

The impression I've gotten from reading is that Malkier wasn't all that huge of a nation...the borders on the map (starting in LoC) do not seem very accurate nor do they gel up with what the BWB mentions for the extent of the blight. For all we know, Malkier, at the time of its demise, could very well have been the Delaware of the Borderlands. There is no way that its border extended that deep into the Mountains of Dhoom.

A quick search throughthe BWB didn't turn up a map that actually shows Malkier. The best reference to where it was is this:

To the east of the land lies the towering mountain range of the Spine of the World, also called the Dragonwall, separating the land from the Aiel Waste. There are only four usable passes through and one southern route around these mountains. The northernmost pass, Tarwin’s Gap, lies in the valley between the mountains of Dhoom and the Dragonwall, at the edge of what used to be the Kingdom of Malkier. It is now part of the Blight. Farther south, at the edge of Shienar, the mountains are breached by the Niamh Passes, actually a series of footpaths that traverse the range into the Aiel Waste.

The Flyleaf map that you linked doesn't really show Tarwin's Gap, but the various maps in the BWB -- notably those on pgs 208 and 209 show Tarwin's Gap as a fairly broad valley north and slightly west of Fal Dara; Makier would have been the "plug" in that Valley that blocked the actual pass at the north end and the Blight now claims the entire valley below the actual "gap."

[Weird Harold]

IIRC, the corruption that made the area uninhabitable is now gone and plants are thriving there despite the drought. It actually seems more like a permannet change than just a reflex, instinctive withdrawal by the DO. But then, as someone said, maybe that's what he wants the BLers to think.

According to Siuan in TSER Ch 17, the most the Blight Border has retreated is two miles -- harldy enough to have restored an entire country, unless you're talking a city-state like the Vatican which hardly fits the description of Malkier.

According to the maps that actually show a distinct Tarwin's Gap and the valley below the pass, the Gap is nearly 100 miles wide -- the one map I have that has any kind of scale to it says 30 leagues or 120 miles, but it also has the biggest depiction of the gap. The valley below the actual pass is conservatively at least a tenth of what the Map shows or twelve miles wide and thirty-two miles long or might be as big as the map shows at 120x320 miles.

[greatwolf]

According to Siuan in TSER Ch 17, the most the Blight Border has retreated is two miles -- harldy enough to have restored an entire country, unless you're talking a city-state like the Vatican which hardly fits the description of Malkier.

Two miles deep, but stretches throughout the BLs to the sea. I'm not saying its enough to restore malkier, in fact I said it would not be a sustenable state, but enough to make a start. Especially since there are plants thriving. Lan could never have considered bringing people to live here before the events at the eye. Now its an option.

[Weird Harold]

...Lan could never have considered bringing people to live here before the events at the eye. Now its an option.

As Rand followed the Warder past the stone borderpost, he turned in his saddle to look back, watching Ingtar and the lances disappear behind barren trees, and the borderpost vanish, and last of all the towers on their hilltops, looking over the trees. All too soon they were alone, riding north under the leafless canopy of the forest. Rand sank into watchful silence, and for once even Mat had nothing to say.

...

For at least an hour after they passed the borderpost there was no change in land or forest. The Warder kept them at a hard pace, as fast a walk as the horses could maintain, but Rand kept wondering when they would reach the Blight. ...


A fast walk for a horse is about 5 miles an hour. The watchtowers at the border of Sheinar probably have a view of at least five miles and they walked for an hour after Rand lost sight of the Towers. That means the watchtowers are ten miles or so from the Blight Border -- I don't think an additional two miles of un-blighted Malkier would attract any more settlers than the existing ten miles or so do.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It may be that it is not precisely two miles in all places. If it is two miles at least almost everywhere, and quite a bit more in a very few places, then substantial parts of Malkier could be free again, while the Blight on the borders of Saldaea, Kandor, Arafelle, the Aiel Waste, Shara and Seanchan retreated only those two miles. Summarising such a situation with "two mile retreat" would not be all that bad.

[greatwolf]

A fast walk for a horse is about 5 miles an hour. The watchtowers at the border of Sheinar probably have a view of at least five miles and they walked for an hour after Rand lost sight of the Towers. That means the watchtowers are ten miles or so from the Blight Border -- I don't think an additional two miles of un-blighted Malkier would attract any more settlers than the existing ten miles or so do.

Ten miles below the border and AT LEAST two beyond is much better starting point, especially where there's a will and determination. BLers do not seem to lack those things. The other nations ewspecially shienar and arafel will probably be glad to have a buffer between them and the shadow.

Once people can find water and a place to plant, a nation can easily take root, even with only a mile or two. Twelve makes it much easier. What's more, malkeiri girls have not been going to the tower. They may have a pool of girls willing to help with defence. Defence and extending what is there to recover what they can of malkier.

E: Settlers wont go to a place like this without having some form of organised defence against the shadow. That means a government. O r at least the kind of thing Lan is doing now.

[Neilbert]

It's not going to happen. Nobody is going to settle that close to the blightborder without some serious fortifications.

It wasn't so much the number of the dead Malkieri but that it was probably their elite core as well as one of their top leaders dying for nothing.

Shienar sent troops to Malkier as a fairly regular thing. I think that losing the elite core (or whatever) made it so that trollocs could overwhelm Malkier before help could arrive.

It seemed like a close run thing even before the loss at Shayol Ghul the way I read it, and the key to the Shadow's victory over Malkier seems to be that they were able to break through before troops from Shienar (or Aes Sedai) could show up and help. I think speed of victory was the key. I don't think Malkier alone could have defended the blight against a hard attack, even with the troops lost at SG.

[greatwolf]

It's not going to happen. Nobody is going to settle that close to the blightborder without some serious fortifications....

Yes they'll need to do some things. That doesn't make it impossible, only worthwhile:)

I think speed of victory was the key. I don't think Malkier alone could have defended the blight against a hard attack, even with the troops lost at SG.

Agelmar said it was broken morale from the loss at Thakandar that led to the loss. There are ways of blunting a fast attack and ways of holding out against larger forces but what do you do with loss of morale?

[Davian93]

It seems like the Shadow basically conducted a blitzkrieg attack against the Malkieri...much like France in 1940, the Malkieri simply didn't have a chance in hell without outside support. Considering the brother of the king along with 9,000 lances were already dead, another hero Cowin was unmasked as a Darkfriend and the borderforts were all betrayed, Malkier didn't seem to have much of a chance.

quick search throughthe BWB didn't turn up a map that actually shows Malkier. The best reference to where it was is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BWB
Chapter 15
The World After the Breaking
To the east of the land lies the towering mountain range of the Spine of the World, also called the Dragonwall, separating the land from the Aiel Waste. There are only four usable passes through and one southern route around these mountains. The northernmost pass, Tarwin’s Gap, lies in the valley between the mountains of Dhoom and the Dragonwall, at the edge of what used to be the Kingdom of Malkier. It is now part of the Blight. Farther south, at the edge of Shienar, the mountains are breached by the Niamh Passes, actually a series of footpaths that traverse the range into the Aiel Waste.

The Flyleaf map that you linked doesn't really show Tarwin's Gap, but the various maps in the BWB -- notably those on pgs 208 and 209 show Tarwin's Gap as a fairly broad valley north and slightly west of Fal Dara; Makier would have been the "plug" in that Valley that blocked the actual pass at the north end and the Blight now claims the entire valley below the actual "gap."

Sorry I should have clarified. I was referring to the Malkier map that is in the inside cover (map I linked) along with the Blight borders touched on in the BWB (i.e. the extent of the Blight south from the Mountains of Dhoom). They don't seem to match unless Malkier was a fairly small Vermont sized nation (maybe 150 miles long and 30-100 miles wide) just above Shienar and Arafele. That would go along with Shienar and Arafele routinely sending lances north to help support the Malkieri and why they both considered themselves Borderland nations despite not actually being on the border.

[Weird Harold]

Sorry I should have clarified. I was referring to the Malkier map that is in the inside cover (map I linked) along with the Blight borders touched on in the BWB (i.e. the extent of the Blight south from the Mountains of Dhoom). They don't seem to match unless Malkier was a fairly small Vermont sized nation (maybe 150 miles long and 30-100 miles wide) just above Shienar and Arafele.

That's just it, the map you linked doesn't show Malkier (a typo?) and it doesn't show enough space between Shienar and Arafel for even a 30 mile wide country. The ruins of the seven towers are more than a day's travel from the Border Towers so Malkier was at least 40 miles North to South even if the capital city was right on the blight border when it fell.

The only place Malkier could have been is in that broad valley below Tarwin's Gap that the flyleaf map doesn't show.

[Neilbert]

To be fair it's really hard to tell cus of the resolution of the image, but yeah I can't find Malkier on it either.

That being said, I'm sure I've seen a map with Malkier on it, but I don't have physical copies of the books with me.

[Davian93]

To be fair it's really hard to tell cus of the resolution of the image, but yeah I can't find Malkier on it either.

That being said, I'm sure I've seen a map with Malkier on it, but I don't have physical copies of the books with me.

Its really poor resolution. If you have LoC or even tFoH, you can simply open the inside cover and Malkier is outlined on them. The map link simply isn't big enough to truly show it unfortunately. And I cannot find a large version of it.

This link might help. http://www.zazzle.co.uk/wheel_of_time_map_poster-228055844838856137 You can zoom in and almost see the outline of Malkier...its a black dotted line pretty much and you can kinda see Malkier right above Fal Dara. I'm stunned that this isn't common knowledge.

[Marie Curie 7]

Not at all, given how RJ described the eye in comparison to Nynaeve's well. (Liquid nitrogen canister to a glass of water IIRC)

The thing was almost like an angreal, or a sa'angreal.

Yeah:

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 23 January 2003 - Soni reporting

Soni: So the Eye of the World is a well, right?
RJ: [pauses] Yes and no. It's in the same class of objects as a well, but on a different scale.
Soni: So could it be refilled by a male channeler?
RJ: No. Remember, lots of Aes Sedai died to make it.
Soni: To keep it pure.
RJ: That, among other things. Look, a normal well is like this water glass. [he gestures] The Eye is like a liquid nitrogen canister.
Soni: So are wells made with the opposite half of the power that they were meant to contain, like Rand did at Shadar Logoth.
RJ: [sly smile] No, they don't work like that.

Which is really funny, since a liquid nitrogen canister can be pretty much any size from a small thermos bottle to a large tanker car...

[Neilbert]

Potential energy/volume maybe?

[greatwolf]

I think he simply meant that the eye was pressurized and not reusable.

The maps in the series have never been too accurate and I never place much stock in them. I don't think RJ had any one editing those details for him. (In KoD, Rand actually thinks he can see the Andoran border from Altara! ) Especially when it comes to scale issues.

But 2miles x 100miles is a lot of space. Depends on what you want to do with it. Lan and nyn will have their work cut outv for them. Especially when it comes to managing people IMO. Lan may know daes d'emar, but has been out of touch. Nyn and the game? well, she'll be AS one day. One day.

[Enigma]

I'm no great miliary tactician but I would have though that if you are a nation bordering the blight you would need to have your forts and border defences a few miles further north that your main centre of population.

That way if the outer layer of defences are over run it still takes the attacking shadow spawn army some time to get to the main cities to try and attack them. That time gives the rest of the army some change to get into position and allows the outlying farms some opportunity to get behind the protection of the city walls.

If the area reclaimed is that small would not the main populations centres only be a few minutes ride from your forts etc. That would mean that if they fell your civilians have no chance to get to any type of safety.

On an aside I wonder did Shienar use Malkier as a buffer zone to give them time to react? Malkier slows down any normal attack to give Shienar time to get their army in the field and then they help drive back the attack and reclaim Malkier (from a conventional raid/attack, not the all out assault that doomed Malkier).

[GonzoTheGreat]

Shienaran lances used to ride north to fight with the Malkieri.
TEOTW, More Tales of the Wheel, Chapter 47

"Lord of the Seven Towers," Agelmar said with a frown. "An ancient title, Lady Egwene. Not even the High Lords of Tear have older, though the Queen of Andor comes close." He heaved a sigh, and shook his head. "He will not speak of it, yet the story is well known along the Border. He is a king, or should have been, al'Lan Mandragoran, Lord of the Seven Towers, Lord of the Lakes, crownless King of the Malkieri." His shaven head lifted high, and there was a light in his eye as if he felt a father's pride. His voice grew stronger, filled with the force of his feeling. The whole room could hear without straining. "We of Shienar call ourselves Bordermen, but fewer than fifty years ago, Shienar was not truly of the Borderlands. North of us, and of Arafel, was Malkier. The lances of Shienar rode north, but it was Malkier that held back the Blight. Malkier, Peace favor her memory, and the Light illumine her name."

[greatwolf]

if you are a nation bordering the blight you would need to have your forts and border defences a few miles further north that your main centre of population.

You can build your forts in the blight and fight there, but the army and general populace need the green areas to farm and survive. And the extent of corruption free areas is AT LEAST two miles. It'll be more in some areas but not less anywhere. 2x100 miles =200 sq miles. That is a lot of real estate. It can be extended, it can be defended but the most important consideration at the end might be ITS HOME, ITS MINE.

[Davian93]

You can build your forts in the blight and fight there, but the army and general populace need the green areas to farm and survive. And the extent of corruption free areas is AT LEAST two miles. It'll be more in some areas but not less anywhere. 2x100 miles =200 sq miles. That is a lot of real estate. It can be extended, it can be defended but the most important consideration at the end might be ITS HOME, ITS MINE.

You can't defend something 2 miles wide there chief. Hell, you could gallop across it in a few minutes. Look at the issues Israel (much much wider) has had defending its country due to not having any depth. A raid would be through the country before an alarm was even sounded.

[Enigma]

Even if the majority of the Shadow spawn don't seem to ride one could walk and take your time and still cover two miles in half an hour. If you are being driven by fades I guess you could do it a lot faster.

On the issue of farming land only two miles wide would that leave you enough farm land? If you consider that you can't just keep planting crops in the same plots of land and have to leave them fallow every once and a while it might note be enough to grow enough food and material for an entire nation leaving aside the military problems.

[greatwolf]

On the issue of farming land only two miles wide would that leave you enough farm land? If you consider that you can't just keep planting crops in the same plots of land and have to leave them fallow every once and a while it might note be enough to grow enough food and material for an entire nation leaving aside the military problems.

Correction :twelve miles of farmland. And why would you site your defences within the farmlands you're trying to protect? You've as much land as you want outside of the green area to set your defences. Consider it a beachhead if you will. It will be needed before any attack at SG can take place.

The seanchan understand logistics a lot better than Randland armies. So they brought farmers with the return rather than relying on farmers in occupied areas.

[Neilbert]

And why would you site your defences within the farmlands you're trying to protect?

Because if people can't get to a defended location quickly then they are Trolloc food waiting to happen.

Trollocs might not burn fields (though they would kill livestock) but Myrdraal certainly would.

[greatwolf]

Because if people can't get to a defended location quickly then they are Trolloc food waiting to happen.

Trollocs might not burn fields (though they would kill livestock) but Myrdraal certainly would.

WHAT?

[Enigma]

I doubt if it would be wise to have any forts actually built in the blight. Likewise you need your forts or what ever defences you are using between the farmers and the blight/shadowspawn. That means you have to have your forts on the edge of your farm land.

If you have Blight - farms- then forts any attack will leave the people actually farming very vulnerable and trying to out run the shadowspawn to get the forts behind the lines. I don't know about you but I would not be too keen to sign up to being out there exposed like that.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Are the forts really close enough to each other to prevent small groups of Trollocs from sneaking past them?
If they are, then who is manning all those forts?
If they aren't, then having defenses in the farmland behind them would make a lot of sense, since that's the only thing that will keep the farmers from becoming Trolloc snacks every time a raiding group walks by.

[greatwolf]

In WWI, trenches were normally built in no man's land. And they got further away from populated areas and toward the enemy as the army advanced. However all supplies, both men and material, were moved from populated areas to the front.

Sometimes that will require some very good logistics. I suppose some of the inventions at Rand's school could help in that regard but I doubt Lan or nyn know anything about the school.

There really wouldn't be any point siting forts within inhabited areas especially when you've got a small beachhead. And especially with arrows of fire and the like. OP backup would be needed. There are AS like Elaida who could make flowers resistant to drought.

[greatwolf]

I've posted the quotes for this thread in my OP. Hope they help though quite late.

[Ozymandias]

Once people can find water and a place to plant, a nation can easily take root, even with only a mile or two. Twelve makes it much easier. What's more, malkeiri girls have not been going to the tower. They may have a pool of girls willing to help with defence. Defence and extending what is there to recover what they can of malkier.
.

The two miles are meaningless. Firstly, Malkier was tiny to begin with. We know this because when they ride into the Blight, they come to the capital (is it called Malkier?) within a few days of easy riding. And it makes MUCH more sense that Malkier extended further south than North, since we know that the Blight couldn't have been more than what? 50-100 miles north at the very very very maximum from the current border of it, which means Malkier would have been a painfully thin country with little to no population. The entire concept of Malkier, in fact, seems to be little more than a traditional holdover from the War of 100 Years when the Borderland governors agreed to ally and protect each other for the good of humanity, when Malkier/Rhamdashar might have conceivably extended far enough North to be a viable political and economic entity. And as time went on, it maintained sovereignty but became more and more just an outpost of Shienar.

So effectively, you have to settle a significant population, enough to resist attack, on a 12 mile strip of land. Of course, this ignores the fact that the Borderlands, and the entire world, is so lightly populated that most of the arable land has been completely abandoned to grow wild. When you could have the Malkieri booster your own population/tax base, or go south and farm on the more hospitable and empty lands in the Black Hills/Caralain Grass/area where Hardan was, why would you spend the time and effort squeezing and defending them into the extra 12 miles?

Beyond which, it makes NO sense to build another (presumably) expensive early warning system a mere 12 miles from where the current one exists. The expense would be incalculable, and would probably be for nothing as any colonizing effort would have a ridiculously slim chance at success anyways.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It is of course possible that some of what is now Shienar used to be Malkier. That could produce some interesting prospects for lawyers specialised in international law, when Lan gets crowned.

[Ozymandias]

It is of course possible that some of what is now Shienar used to be Malkier. That could produce some interesting prospects for lawyers specialised in international law, when Lan gets crowned.

Doubtful, and it wouldn't make a difference. We know that Fal Dara is pretty darn close to the Blightborder as it stands now. Moreover, we know that the lands even within the borders of Shienar are sparsely populated. This leads us to two conclusions.

One, farmland around well fortified cities such as Fal Dara are more likely to be owned by said fort than by any foreign power which has to extend its influence comparatively far.

Two, because we see such lack of settlement in one of the few Borderland areas you would objectively expect to see it (due to the proximity of lots of trained armsmen), we can postulate it hasn't been populated for a while. If that land isn't populated now, barely a generation after the Fall of Malkier, and I mean completely empty when I say barely populated, there is no way it was a thriving area 35-40 years ago or whenever it was. Just the same as the descriptions of the Aiel Waste mean its almost impossible for it to support the population it supposedly does, Malkier could not possibly have been a self-sustaining state. Shienar cannot even turn back the Shadow at Tarwin's Gap without extensive help from other Borderland rulers

[greatwolf]

One, farmland around well fortified cities such as Fal Dara are more likely to be owned by said fort than by any foreign power which has to extend its influence comparatively far...

... Malkier could not possibly have been a self-sustaining state. Shienar cannot even turn back the Shadow at Tarwin's Gap without extensive help from other Borderland rulers

Not really. The seanchan brought their farmers with them and they do not own the farms. Most of those farms are likely located in areas that were not being used before.

BTW, where's the early warning system you spoke of? Shienar has its border forts but i think they would prefer a buffer between them and the blight. Their help for shienar will be guranteed. Perhaps thats why Lan is so uncomfortable about leading his people into the blight. But the support for the project is definitely there.

[Jonai]

I don't see why Malkier would be unable to sustain itself, or be too sparsely populated to exist. At one time the Blight border in the NE was the high passes of the Mountains of Dhoom. It's a good bet that Malkier's northern border at least entered the mountains, even if it didn't extend very far. That would put the northern border beyond where the Eye of the World was found. Also, Malkier was north of Shienar and Arafel, making it a fairly wide country. Now granted, even given the best case scenario, it still doesn't take a long time to transverse Malkier, but you could say that about almost any country in the books.

[Ozymandias]

I don't see why Malkier would be unable to sustain itself, or be too sparsely populated to exist. At one time the Blight border in the NE was the high passes of the Mountains of Dhoom.

That was thousands upon thousands of years ago. Jaramide-era. The Blight has steadily crept southwards hundreds of leagues.

It's a good bet that Malkier's northern border at least entered the mountains, even if it didn't extend very far.

Thats probably a pretty poor bet, unless you think the Blight expanded south at an incredibly rapid (like 50 miles per year) pace. I find that highly unlikely.

That would put the northern border beyond where the Eye of the World was found. Also, Malkier was north of Shienar and Arafel, making it a fairly wide country. Now granted, even given the best case scenario, it still doesn't take a long time to transverse Malkier, but you could say that about almost any country in the books.

Look at Andor... huge east-west and tiny north-south. Thats how I imagine Malkier, but even shorter and much thinner north-south.

Not really. The seanchan brought their farmers with them and they do not own the farms. Most of those farms are likely located in areas that were not being used before.

But those aren't on the Blightborder. An area that comes under severe and constant raiding EVERY year. Any settler or farmer in the Blightborder region is naturally going to want to settle near a garrison or in large numbers. Hence you won't find isolated farms. The very absence of farms along the Blightborder proves it.

And besides, the Seanchan are here to assimilate, not displace. In order to maintain some peace of goodwill, they can't kick farmers off their land in exchange for their own. and if they can't take already settled land, they sort of HAVE to go to abandoned areas. Whereas when a farmer in Shienar is told "you can have this farm, right near the Blight, or this other farm, in all other respects exactly the same, 50 miles from the Blight," they're gonna take the latter!

BTW, where's the early warning system you spoke of? Shienar has its border forts but i think they would prefer a buffer between them and the blight.

The "border forts" are an early warning system. They have tiny garrisons and their primary function is to use mirrors to signal armed garrisons of incoming raids. They're only meant to be self sufficient enough to repel raids of a fist or so... I doubt there are many men inside. Hence, an early warning system.

And I'm sure Easar would LOVE a buffer between him and the Blight. He'd also like a golden chamber pot, and a harem of women that look like Lanfear, and a whole host of other things. Getting people to settle right next to the place where trees and animals like to gut you, and the inhabitants want to throw you in a pot and eat you, isn't easy, especially when those people can point south and say "why can't we live there!"

But the support for the project is definitely there.

Quite the opposite, it very clearly ISN'T there. Wanna know why? It hasn't happened! If there were hordes of people lining up to go live on the edge of a sweltering, festering wasteland, wouldn't there be settlers by now? Your entire point is founded on a complete phantom. No one lives there, and no one wants to live there. If they did, I'm sure Jagad and Easar would be thrilled to have them there.

[Weird Harold]

t's a good bet that Malkier's northern border at least entered the mountains, even if it didn't extend very far.

Thats probably a pretty poor bet, unless you think the Blight expanded south at an incredibly rapid (like 50 miles per year) pace. I find that highly unlikely.

Actually if you look at any of the maps of the current borders, there's not much room for Malkier to avoid incorporating parts of the Mountains of Dhoom -- even if it is just a "ribbon country" ten times as wide as it is tall.


And I'm sure Easar would LOVE a buffer between him and the Blight. He'd also like a golden chamber pot, and a harem of women that look like Lanfear, and a whole host of other things. Getting people to settle right next to the place where trees and animals like to gut you, and the inhabitants want to throw you in a pot and eat you, isn't easy, especially when those people can point south and say "why can't we live there!"

I think people are thinking of settling close to the blight Border as similar to settling on the borders of "Indian Country" in the US Frontier expansion. The Blight isn't like that at all. The US Frontier only offerd Indians and the occasional wild animal; the blight offers carnivorous plants poisonous dirt and psychic oppression in addition to mere "Frontier dangers."

Settling the edges of the Blight is more like settling a barrier island, knowing that the sea WILL eventually wash every sign of your existance away either by a sudden storm or gradual erosion.

[Davian93]

there is no way it was a thriving area 35-40 years ago or whenever it was.

An innacurate assumption on your part to say the least. Its far far easier to destroy than it is to build such infrastructure. An excellent example of this scenario would be the Anatolian Plain before and after the Battle of Manzikert (1071). Before that battle and the ensuring invasion that followed, the Byzantines had one of the most fertile farming regions of that era supported by centuries of building irrigation, roads, and other infrastructure. The Crusaders on the 1st Crusade (all of 25 or so years later) record passing through a barren desert bereft of population, viable water sources or any other natural provisions....Malkier is a very similar scenario to that.

[Weird Harold]

Actually if you look at any of the maps of the current borders, ...

Just for a common reference, the attachment is cut from alarger image and is scaled at one pixel/mile -- the image is 798 X 592 pixels or 798 miles x 592 miles.

[Davian93]

Just for a common reference, the attachment is cut from alarger image and is scaled at one pixel/mile -- the image is 798 X 592 pixels or 798 miles x 592 miles.

I really wish we had a blow up of that book map that outlines Malkier...it'd end this discussion very quickly. That map clearly shows the border well into the mountains. It also shows that Malkier was north of both Shienar and Arafel but it was only partially shielding Arafel.

[greatwolf]

Quite the opposite, it very clearly ISN'T there. Wanna know why? It hasn't happened! If there were hordes of people lining up to go live on the edge of a sweltering, festering wasteland

That's just the point : its no longer a wasteland. Its now green! Green! And I was speaking of political will and support from BL rulers and nobles in general. They want Lan to raise mailkier. And the people won't come and settle in thwere without an army to protect them. An army means a govermnet. That means Lan.

[greatwolf]

Just for a common reference, the attachment is cut from alarger image and is scaled at one pixel/mile -- the image is 798 X 592 pixels or 798 miles x 592 miles.

How's that attachment supposed to open?

[Neilbert]

I'm not going to reread, but I don't recall anyone mentioning the eye ending that unnatural winter (hint hint). I bet that had something to do with it, and I wonder if the blight moved back when the Bowl of the Winds was used or Saidin was cleansed.

[greatwolf]

I'm not going to reread, but I don't recall anyone mentioning the eye ending that unnatural winter (hint hint). I bet that had something to do with it, and I wonder if the blight moved back when the Bowl of the Winds was used or Saidin was cleansed.

We've said that. Seed sung by nym in the aol were said to be resistant to blight (The Blight?) but the green man said he found it difficult to keep the blight out this time. Its in the OP. However, that was just the eye. Now this green area has spread over a wide area and remained so for a long time. The basic question is why?

[Weird Harold]

I really wish we had a blow up of that book map that outlines Malkier...it'd end this discussion very quickly. That map clearly shows the border well into the mountains. It also shows that Malkier was north of both Shienar and Arafel but it was only partially shielding Arafel.
Which book has a map that shows Malkier's borders? I looked at every map in the BWB that shows the borderlands (and just looked again to make sure) and Malkier isn't shown on any map in the BWB.

[Weird Harold]

How's that attachment supposed to open?
By clicking on it.

It was uploaded as a JPG file and opened just fine when I double checked to make sure I uploaded the right picture.

[Davian93]

Which book has a map that shows Malkier's borders? I looked at every map in the BWB that shows the borderlands (and just looked again to make sure) and Malkier isn't shown on any map in the BWB.

Not in the BWB, but inside the cover of LoC and a few of the others...the one that was in color in the hardbacks of the middle books.

[Weird Harold]

Not in the BWB, but inside the cover of LoC and a few of the others...the one that was in color in the hardbacks of the middle books.

I could have sworn that is the same as one of the maps in the BWB, but the new flyleaf map in tFoH and later books (in the TOR paperback editions, at least) does have Malkier and its borders.

I'm not sure that it will end the arguments, because that map also shows Fal Dara as being West of Tarwin's Gap and all of the other maps show Fal Dar as east of Tarwin's Gap. :D

I have a copy of that map, but it is scanned at such low resolution and is a JPeg format, so zooming in on that area doesn't reveal much -- see attachment (I had to compress it even more than the original to allow it to attach, so the quality is even worse, but the big red drawing in the upper right is where the borders of Malkier are on in my paperback copies of tFoH and later.)


That's just the point : its no longer a wasteland. Its now green! Green!

According to the BWB, Malkier fell to the blight in 953NE, the year Lan was born. Using the 20 leagues (80 miles) distance between Fal Moran and Fal Dara as a reference from the scaled map to the flyleaf map, Malkier's northern border was 200 miles from Fal Dara.

I can't see anyone getting excited about recolonizing the one percent of the 200 miles that the blight has claimed in living memory that is green again.