New theory just hit me....

[Yellowbeard]

This regarding how the warding around Callandor would only let Rand take it, how the Rhuidian Ter'Angreal knew to mark him w/ two dragons, etc.

First, Rand is a very special soul, obviously, w/ him being the Dragon Soul. The AoLr's that made the Callandor warding and the Rhuiden Ter'Angreal would have known about the Hero's of the Horn, and the pattern using them as correction devices, etc. They'd have figured out that LTT was one of the heros.

Second, the Heros have threads that are slightly different from oridinary folk. As such, they stand out in the pattern and are easily recognizable by those that know how to read the pattern.

For example, Ishy could "read the pattern" to help him try to find Rand after he was reborn. He could even tell by reading the pattern that Rand had been reborn. Hence how he knew to set the BA to looking for the infant DR.

Also, even the rest of the forsaken are known to have the skill to read the pattern. Moridin tells them to do it when he instructs them to hunt down and kill Matt and Perrin (forgot exactly what book, but I remember the scene).

So, moving to the third point. AoLr's had a web they'd use to the read the pattern. 3rd agers have either forgotten how to do it, or aren't generally strong enough. But the AoLr's that set the Callandor warding and made the Rhuidean ter'angreal knew how to read the pattern as well.

Fourth, I theorize that the Heros each have a unique "signature" thread that stands out in the pattern. For someone reading the pattern, they can identify a specific Hero by they're thread signature if they can find it in the pattern.

Fifth, the ward/ter'angreal makers knew LTT. They had read the pattern before and knew the Dragon Soul signature that his thread had on the pattern.

Since they knew the signature the DR would have on the pattern, they set the ward and the ter'angreal to the pattern and be tuned specifically to the dragon soul thread signature. The Callandor warding was set to read the pattern, determine if the person's thread matched the dragon soul's thread signature, and when it finally did, to allow the DR to take Callandor.

The Rhuidean ter'angreal was set as follows: If someone passed thru the rings, and they lived thru the experience, mark them. If the survivor didn't match the Dragon Soul's thread signature, and was male, they got one dragon. If the person matched the dragon soul's thread signature, two dragons.

comments?

[Davian93]

For example, Ishy could "read the pattern" to help him try to find Rand after he was reborn. He could even tell by reading the pattern that Rand had been reborn. Hence how he knew to set the BA to looking for the infant DR.

Actually the BA found this out from kidnapping and torturing the Amyrlin who set Moiraine/Siuan on the hunt. Ishy wasn't active at that point.

[Yellowbeard]

Actually the BA found this out from kidnapping and torturing the Amyrlin who set Moiraine/Siuan on the hunt. Ishy wasn't active at that point.

I'd always interpreted that differently in New Spring. That Ishy couldn't leave SG, but he was always present there for those that went into the pit of doom. I'd thought that he'd realized the DR was reborn and set the BA to find him. So the first thing they did was capture and torture the Amyrlin because she set the Tower to investigating babies, they figured she had some sort of lead to finding the DR, and they wanted to know what she knew and how she found out.

[Neilbert]

IIRC they didn't know how old the Dragon Reborn was, so they were just killing lucky people of random ages.

It's been a while since I read New Spring but I recall Moiraine (or Siuan) figurin gthat one out.

[GonzoTheGreat]

A bigger problem to this theory seems to be that throughout almost all of TEOTW, Ishamael did not know how to figure out which of the three ta'veren was the one he was after.
KoD, At the Gardens, Chapter 3

“If you want to kill someone,” he went on. “kill these two!” Suddenly the semblances of two young men in rough country clothes stood in the center of the circle, turning so that everyone could get a good look at their faces. One was tall and wide, with yellow eyes, of all things, while the other was not quite slender and wore a cheeky grin. Creations of Tel aran’driod they moved stiffly and their expressions never altered. “Perrin Aybara and Mat Cauthon are ta’veren, easily found. Find them, and kill them.”
Graendal laughed, a mirthless sound. “Finding ta’veren was never as simple as you made out, and now it’s harder than ever. The whole Pattern is in flux, full of shifts and spikes.”This is just some further confirmation that it is ta'veren which he could find, and the three didn't become that until long after New Spring.

[Weird Harold]

First, Rand is a very special soul, obviously, w/ him being the Dragon Soul. The AoLr's that made the Callandor warding and the Rhuiden Ter'Angreal would have known about the Hero's of the Horn, and the pattern using them as correction devices, etc. They'd have figured out that LTT was one of the heros.

According to RJ, the Horn of Valere was known of in the AOL, but they considered it's power to recall the Heroes a myth.

That would suggest that even though the aging Aes Sedai who built the Stone and warded Callandor actualy had the Horn of Valere and the Banner the Heroes must follow, that they did NOT know that the Heroes resided in T'A'R between calls or that the Dragon Soul/LTT is a HotH.

As far as I can tell, the only way they would have known LTT was a Hero would have been to sound the Horn and without knowing in advance that LTT would show up it seems unlikely that they would do so.

The Aes Sedai who programmed the Glass Columns were NOT the same Aes Sedai who built the Eye of the World and Stone of Tear and they were working to fulfill the Aiel Prophecies rather than the Dragon Prophecies. They would have had to survive ten generations of Aiel (or about 1800-2000 years) to be the same Aes Sedai and that's about double the life expectancy of AOL Channelers.

The wards on Callandor were set a millenia or two before the Glass Columns were programmed and I'd be surprised if there were a connection between the two. We know that the Columns are keyed to ancestry and the viewpoints overlap so they can't be keyed to a single soul; We have no idea what the wards on Callandor were keyed to, but we know that ancestry can be predicted over long time frames but we haven't seen any definitive evidence that a particular Soul can be identified.

You do make a good point that Heroes of the Horn are unique souls -- archetypes, actually -- and might well be distinguishable from ordinary souls, but we haven't seen any mechanism for distinguishing souls.

[Yellowbeard]

harumph!!

i still think that the dragon soul being disintinguishable from all other threads in the pattern is possible.

***clings defiantly to another dead theory***

[Neilbert]

As far as I can tell, the only way they would have known LTT was a Hero would have been to sound the Horn and without knowing in advance that LTT would show up it seems unlikely that they would do so.

Moghedien recognized Birgitte as a Hero.

Nynaeve shivered, fear warring with the anger that let her contain the Power. Moghedien. Lanfear. This woman spoke so casually of the Forsaken. "Birgitte, what did Moghedien promise you?"
"She knew what I was, even though I did not. How, I do not know." Birgitte glanced at Cain; he appeared absorbed in his sword, but she lowered her voice anyway. "She promised to make me weep alone for as long as the Wheel turns. She said it as a fact that simply had not happened yet."

There has to be more to the horn summoning heroes than just blowing on it. I can't imagine it would have sat in a museum or wherever it was without a single person getting curious as to what it sounded like. I bet you have to blow it and be in need of salvation or something like that.

[Enigma]

Here is an idea. The As who programed the glass columns knew that the dragon would take Callandor. Could it be that opening the ward on Callandor would leave some sort of OP marked in that person and they set the columns to give two dragons to anyone who went though them with this marker.

Of course that supposes that they knew that the dragon would get Callandor before going into the waste. I doubt if the prophecies gave them a timetable or itineary of Rand's movements but you never know.

[Weird Harold]

Of course that supposes that they knew that the dragon would get Callandor before going into the waste. I doubt if the prophecies gave them a timetable or itineary of Rand's movements but you never know.

They knew that he would take the Stone of Tear, but there's no mention of Callandor:

TSR,Ch25
"The stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming. Of the blood, but not raised by the blood, he will come from Rhuidean at dawn, and tie you together with bonds you cannot break. He will take you back, and he will destroy you."


There is a strong sense of sequential events in that particular prophecy and the Wise Ones who sent him into Rhuidean used the fall of Tear as part of their justification.

I don't think the Glass Columns would need an external marker, since to the best of our knowledge, Rand is the first non-aiel to be sent into Rhuidean and through the Glass Columns. Access to Rhuidean and the Glass Columns was tightly controlled by the Wise Ones according to inscrutable guidelines.

[Sodas]

Here is an idea. The As who programed the glass columns knew that the dragon would take Callandor. Could it be that opening the ward on Callandor would leave some sort of OP marked in that person and they set the columns to give two dragons to anyone who went though them with this marker.

Of course that supposes that they knew that the dragon would get Callandor before going into the waste. I doubt if the prophecies gave them a timetable or itineary of Rand's movements but you never know.

I don't think that is the case. I feel that the wards for Callandor were tuned to LTT since it was his sword, and early prophecies seemed to predict rebirth. It just so happened that LTT was reborn according to prophecy, still in tune (to steal a musical term) with the wards on Callandor. Afterall, if the Hero's saw Rand as LTT, why not the Wards?

In the case of the columns, I think there is two possibilities. Either, Rand's body was marked once for Rand, and once for LTT. Rand, no brainer here, would be marked because of his parents. But LTT is, was, the Dragon himself.

Or, he was marked twice because the Aes Sedai wanted the Dragons to have a literal meaning. For instance, one Dragon has become the code for "leader." Then two Dragons must be code for "leader of a leader." In this interpretation, Rand was marked simply because the columns knew Rand would bring all the tribes together (minus Shiado of course) and had to mark him so.

[Weird Harold]

I don't think that is the case. I feel that the wards for Callandor were tuned to LTT since it was his sword, and early prophecies seemed to predict rebirth.

:confused: Where does it say Callandor was LTT's sword?

..For instance, one Dragon has become the code for "leader." Then two Dragons must be code for "leader of a leader." ...

Well, Duh!

The Glass Columns were created/programmed to identify Rand as Car'a'carn according to the Aiel Prophecies, not to identify him as the Dragon Reborn. The marking of Clan Chiefs was a secondary purpose, but also to establish the precedent of the Glass Coumns identifying the leaders of the Aiel. Car'a'carn means, "Chief of Chiefs."

(Makes one wonder how Wise Ones are marked and where. :D)

[GonzoTheGreat]

Makes one wonder how Wise Ones are marked and where.Rhuarcc could probably tell you, though trying to make him do so might not be particularly safe.

[Nazbaque]

A bigger problem to this theory seems to be that throughout almost all of TEOTW, Ishamael did not know how to figure out which of the three ta'veren was the one he was after.
I think I can explain this bit. By reading the Pattern Ishy sees that there are three ta'veren in our party of good guys. He might not be able to tell which thread belongs to which person just like that. He could of course figure out that Thom, Moiraine and Lan are out of the question because they are clearly from outside TR, but with the rest the threads themselves need to carry more information such as age and gender. This leaves him with Rand, Mat and Perrin, but if their threads don't give him the info on what they actually look like, he has no way of telling which of the three threads belongs to which lad. They have lived their lives in the same general area, their age difference is about two weeks and all three are male. If their threads don't actually tell their weight, height or the colour of their eyes/hair, Ishy is lost.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yes, that explains why he couldn't figure out which was the one he was after, but only if you assume that he was hunting for a ta'veren. If he had some way of specifically hunting for the Dragon Soul, then he should have gotten only one signal, not three.

[Nazbaque]

Sorry I phrased that bit badly. I meant to say that unless Rand's thread contains info on what he actually looks like, Ishy wouldn't be able to tell which of the three boys it belonged to.

[GonzoTheGreat]

No, but if that had been the case, then he could have told which thread to pull into his weird dreams, and he wouldn't have needed to play the "are you the One" game with all three for so long.

[Nazbaque]

Unless there is more to it than that. The three threads would be all twisted around eachother at that point so maybe there was no way of doing the dream pulling to just one. Or it might be that you don't pull the thread, but go to the dream space like Egwene does and pull the dream of a person in which he has the same problem.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Neither of those two options provides any support at all for the idea that Ishamael was capable of recognising the Dragon soul, though. All they do is add an assumption to the speculation, to try to explain the existence of a problem that wouldn't exist without the baseless speculation in the first place.

[Nazbaque]

And?

[GonzoTheGreat]

You're not as good as I am at baseless speculation, so you might as well give up.

[Nazbaque]

Not as good? I'm better! You just proved it by being the first to demand evidence.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Ah, but I'm smart enough to stay away from the issue of evidence when it's my baseless speculation which is under discussion.

[Nazbaque]

No you're not. You just tried to argue against my baseless speculation with your own baseless speculation and then started to talk about evidence, when you couldn't find a baseless argument against my baseless speculation. I win.

[Yellowbeard]

Neither of those two options provides any support at all for the idea that Ishamael was capable of recognising the Dragon soul, though.

Yeah but Ishy was most certainly looking for the Dragon soul in EotW, so he had some way of figuring it out.

He brought Fain (and others I suspect) to SG multiple times and "modified" them to be his hounds. He sent them all over creation trying to find the reborn Dragon. Rand, Mat, and Perrin weren't Ta'veren yet, so he couldn't read the pattern to pinpoint them as he later ordered the Chosen to do in KoD. But he still had some way of narrowing down the Dragon's location.

As Fain went thru his travels and peddling, he unconsciously collected data. Somehow that translated into Ishy being able to download what Fain sensed in his travels, and narrow in on the Two Rivers as to the reborn Dragon's location. He knew the reborn Dragon's age as the BA had told him the date of birth, which they learned from torturing the Amrylim, and there were only 3 boys in the Two Rivers that met the age criteria. The fade scoped out the Two Rivers, identified the boys, and they made their attempt to capture the 3 boys.

But how still was Fain able to sense where the reborn Dragon soul was? There had to be some sort of individual, specific characteristic that Fain was programmed to sense. Also, Fain can still sense Rand all thru the books. How? There has to be some characteristic that Fain has been tuned into. Since Fain can't sense other Ta'veren (like Mat and Perrin), it's obvious that he's not tuned to detect Ta'veren in general. It's just Rand.

And since Fain can detect something unique that allows him track the Dragon soul, and only the Dragon soul, that's proof of something unique about the Dragon soul.

It's the same unique something that Fain can sense that also allows for the wards on Callandor to function as they did, and for the rings at Rhuidean to recognize Rand and mark him w/ two dragons instead of one.

[GonzoTheGreat]

But it is possible that this detection algorithm came from the DO, who has fought the Dragon an infinite number of times already, and not from Ishamael, who had only seen LTT during a limited (say, three century) period.
We do not know what was done to Fain, precisely. But we do know that he had to be brought to SG for it, and that the DO could do some things there which he couldn't do anywhere else. As was the case for Ishamael, at that time, of course, just to muddle up the waters a bit.

[Weird Harold]

Yeah but Ishy was most certainly looking for the Dragon soul in EotW, so he had some way of figuring it out.

The evidence that Ishamael could NOT detect the Dragon Soul is that he was still looking.

Moiraine also narrowed her search down to the Three Amigos but couldn't isolate Rand as the Dragon Reborn until the end of the book -- and that was with direct observation unlike Ishamael who had to observe through their dreams and through minions.

How? There has to be some characteristic that Fain has been tuned into. Since Fain can't sense other Ta'veren (like Mat and Perrin), it's obvious that he's not tuned to detect Ta'veren in general. It's just Rand.

IIRC, Fain could detect all three of the Three Amigos at one point, but as Rand fulfilled each successive prophecy to prove he was the Dragon Reborn PF focussed his obsession on just Rand.

Fain has the advantage of having met Rand in person, which Ishamael had not until the confrontation at the EotW -- or possibly later if meeting in T'A'R don't count. After about a third of the way through tEotW, Ishamael had at least had direct contact with Rand's dreams. Those who set the wards on Callandor and those who programmed the Glass Columns didnt' have that advantage -- those who programmed the Glass Columns were probably too young to have ever met LTT either.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I think there's an RJ quote that the Rhuidean AS were not from the Age of Legends. Since LTT survived only a day or so after the Strike on SG, and he killed everyone he met during that time (with the exception of one particular individual) it does seem unlikely that they met him.

[Weird Harold]

I think there's an RJ quote that the Rhuidean AS were not from the Age of Legends. Since LTT survived only a day or so after the Strike on SG, and he killed everyone he met during that time (with the exception of one particular individual) it does seem unlikely that they met him.
It is not only very unlilkely that they knew LTT, but it's not really likely that they knew the AS who built the Eye and Stone either -- they were likely apprentices of apprentices to AOL AS.

The Rhuidean AS date to after the beginning of construction of the WT and the founding of Cairehein.

Rand POV - Rand enters the circle of glass columns and sees Muradin standing ahead of him. He takes another step.

He is Mandein, a young sept chief. His wife, Sealdre, tells him he must agree to what the Jenn ask. As he goes to meet them, he recalls that his greatfather, Comran, began trade with the Ogier stedding in the Dragonwall and that his greatfather, Rhodric, fought invaders from across the Dragonwall. Mandein joins several other Aiel chiefs to meet with three of the Jenn, Dermon, Mordaine and Narisse. There are two Aes Sedai with them. ...

Mandein is the first of the chiefs to agree to go to Rhuidean.
...
He is a twenty year old Rhodric. Jeordam, his greatfather, is at the well drawing water. Some men ride up and their leader, Garam, tells Rhodric that they still have permission to draw water. Garam is confused. He does not understand the difference between Rhodric and Jeordam who are Aiel and those they accompany, the Jenn Aiel. Jeordam arrives and Garam tells him the Jenn are moving east across the Spine of the World. There are four Aes Sedai with the Jenn. Garam says his father's Aes Sedai advisor told him that the Aes Sedai hired Ogier stonemasons to build them a new city. Garam says his people will build a great city as well. ...

The White Tower and Tar Valon were founded in 98 AB (not NE!) and there are four generations of Aiel between that news and the beginning of using the Glass Columns to educate and approve the Clan Chiefs.

[Neilbert]

Since Fain can't sense other Ta'veren (like Mat and Perrin), it's obvious that he's not tuned to detect Ta'veren in general. It's just Rand.

IIRC, Fain could detect all three of the Three Amigos at one point, but as Rand fulfilled each successive prophecy to prove he was the Dragon Reborn PF focussed his obsession on just Rand.

Fain can still detect Mat and Perrin, it's just that he detects Rand more, and therefore focuses his attentions on him. It seems likely that Mat and Perrin were false positives, and subsequent "refinement" revealed them to be such. They are still on his metaphorical radar though, he mentions them almost as an afterthought.

However, a point against Fain sensing ta'veren is that Rand, Mat, and Perrin became ta'veren shortly after leaving the Two Rivers.

I think it's likely that Fain was doing something similar to what Moiraine was doing: searching for a boy who met specific criteria. As the Dark One gathered more intel, from hounds and other sources, he was able to refine his criteria. Age is the most likely one, but surely there must be others.

[Jonai]

I really hope you mean 98 AB homes. Well I know you do. haha AB FY NE so many calender denominations. I've gotta side with Naz on the baseless speculation though. His bullshit aura is brighter.

[Nazbaque]

Thank you. I've always prided myself in my bullshit abilities.

[Weird Harold]

I really hope you mean 98 AB homes. Well I know you do. haha AB FY NE so many calender denominations. I've gotta side with Naz on the baseless speculation though. His bullshit aura is brighter.
Yep, I 'typed' AB, but my fingers pushed the wrong keys. :( I edited the post.

[Weird Harold]

I think it's likely that Fain was doing something similar to what Moiraine was doing: searching for a boy who met specific criteria. As the Dark One gathered more intel, from hounds and other sources, he was able to refine his criteria. Age is the most likely one, but surely there must be others.

Now that you mention it, I think RJ said something to that effect; Fain and all of the 'DO's hounds' were looking first for boys born within a week or so of Rand, and then for some other criteria.

The BA in New Spring didn't know Rand's birthdate, just that he had already been born, but there was plenty of time and information around to narrow Rand's birthdate down to within a week or so over the 18 years between NS and the beginning of tEotW.

Rand, Mat and Perrin were all born within days of each other, and I'm pretty sure RJ said that's the reason Ishamael and the other Forsaken couldn't pick Rand out of the group at first.