a case of mistaken identity!

[hippie-joe]

so i was just reading and i noticed something.
now this may have been discused and it may be common knowledge, but i think i know who mesaana is.

"I did not tell you to have Elaida... beaten," that voice of crystal chimes said. "Do you rise above yourself?"
Alviarin flung herself from her knees onto her belly before the woman who seemed made of dark shadows and silvery light. Seizing the hem of Mesaana’s dress, she rained kisses on it.

this was after alviarin made elaida sign the decree that says rand is under the protction of the white tower, then sent silviana, the mistress of novices, up to elaida for a private penance.

the meeting alviarin had with mesaana was during this private penance according to alviarin's thoughts
"I live to serve and obey you, Great Mistress," Alviarin panted between kisses. "I know that I am among the lowest of the low, a worm in your presence, and I pray only for your smile." She had been punished once for "rising above herself" – not for disobedience, thanks be to the Great Lord of the Dark! – and she knew that whatever howls Elaida might be raising right then, they could not be half so loud as her own had been.

and mesaana knew about the task the mistress of novices was sent to do

all this leads me to believe that mesaana is none other than...

























DU DU DU...










you guessed it!

silviana, the mistress of novices.

heres a little more fuel to the fire.
"The Keeper said you wanted to speak me," Silviana said irritably. "About a private penance." Even to the Amyrlin Seat, she made no effort to hide her disgust. Silviana believed private penance a ridiculous affectation. Penance was public; only punishment took place in private. "She also asked me to remind you of something, but she rushed off before saying what." She finished with a snort. Silviana saw anything that took time away from her novices and Accepted as needless interruption.


she was really irritated because she had to meet with alviarin as her superior after she had to go up and whip elaida, which was an order from alviarin. i know i would be upset if i had to do something my underling just ordered me to do because she was unaware of my true identity.

so she walked up and whipped elaida for a short while
When Silviana finally left – after only half an hour by the chimes of Cemaile’s clock, yet an endless eternity – all that kept Elaida from calling the Hall to sit immediately so she could demand Alviarin be stripped of the Keeper’s stole were the certainty of her Foretelling and the certainty that Seaine would trace that trail of treason back to Alviarin.
then afterward left and traveled to alviarin's rooms and they had their meeting.

so what do y'all think?
rip it up

[Neilbert]

You could try posting a physical description of Sylvana and a physical description of Mesaana without her illusion.

Or place the dress.

Or showing Sylvana using some of Mesaana's manerisms.

[greatwolf]

I like it! A fresh angle on this mystery and it could very well turn out to be right. It may need some doing to convince TLers though.

Perhaps if we had a reason for Mesaana being in position of the mistress of novices. Does it allow her access to the tower's cache of angreal and Saangreal?

[Enigma]

Firstly we know that when the illusion unraveled around Mesaana Alviarin saw her real face and though that it looked vagually familiar but she could not place it.

Secondly we know that Alviarin is now getting regular punishment from Sylvana.

Not its just me but if someone was beating me every day with no end in sight I would probably have the person doing the beating in my mind a lot. I don't recally any scene where Alviarin suddenly goes "eureka I know who Mesaana is, its that bi**h Sylvana"

The impression I had was because of the vague familiarity Alviarin had with the face it is either a sister she has not had much contact with in years

[greatwolf]

Not its just me but if someone was beating me every day with no end in sight I would probably have the person doing the beating in my mind a lot. I don't recally any scene where Alviarin suddenly goes "eureka I know who Mesaana is, its that bi**h Sylvana"

The impression I had was because of the vague familiarity Alviarin had with the face it is either a sister she has not had much contact with in years

The problem with OP disguise is that its better when subtle, minor changes are made. With enough changes, Alvi would be aware she had met her or someone closely resembling her without catching on to the truth. Thats what a good disguise is all about. Hiding in plain sight!

[Neilbert]

Firstly we know that when the illusion unraveled around Mesaana Alviarin saw her real face and though that it looked vagually familiar but she could not place it.

Messaana probably dresses up her Aes Sedai disguise with illusion, she would have to for the ageless face, so a face would be different enough to seem familiar but not recognizable even if it were someone Alvarian had contact with. Though I think you are right, she would be familiar enough with Sylvana to figure it out pretty quick.

[Enigma]

Messaana probably dresses up her Aes Sedai disguise with illusion, she would have to for the ageless face, so a face would be different enough to seem familiar but not recognizable even if it were someone Alvarian had contact with. Though I think you are right, she would be familiar enough with Sylvana to figure it out pretty quick.

I agree that the best disguise is just minor changes as it is easier to maintain but if Mesaana was Sylvana surely Alviarin would comment on the resemblence at least.

Also is there any indication that Sylvana is not feeling well? A few of the forsaken commented on Mesaana looking ill and pale after his visit by SH.

[greatwolf]

Also is there any indication that Sylvana is not feeling well? A few of the forsaken commented on Mesaana looking ill and pale after his visit by SH.

Beauty of disguise. You make it as you want it. Hide the illness. And Mesaana wasn't even ill, just appeared a little off.

[Weird Harold]

I like it! A fresh angle on this mystery and it could very well turn out to be right. It may need some doing to convince TLers though.

Perhaps if we had a reason for Mesaana being in position of the mistress of novices. Does it allow her access to the tower's cache of angreal and Saangreal?
I can't think of any reasons for Mesaana to take on the job of mistress of novices, but I can think of several reason why she should avoid that or any other prominant position.

Otherwise, I don't see any real problem with Sliviana as a suspect.

[Purple Dragon]

I can't think of any reasons for Mesaana to take on the job of mistress of novices, but I can think of several reason why she should avoid that or any other prominant position.

Otherwise, I don't see any real problem with Sliviana as a suspect.

well... if you want a really, really, REALLY good clue as to WHO she poses as, i want you to think about WHAT she WAS and what she WANTED to BE back in the good ol' day... ;)
she's also, not one of the up fronters... see my points?;)

[Weird Harold]

well... if you want a really, really, REALLY good clue as to WHO she poses as, i want you to think about WHAT she WAS and what she WANTED to BE back in the good ol' day... ;)
she's also, not one of the up fronters... see my points?;)
But posing as a Brown Sister is such an obvious disguise that she should be smart enough to avoid it. :D

[irerancincpkc]

Yeah, the biggest problem I have with this is that the smartest, most logical thing for Messana to do is be a no one in the Tower, not someone who is bound to be noticed, and and a powerful member of the tower.

[FelixPax]

Firstly we know that when the illusion unraveled around Mesaana Alviarin saw her real face and though that it looked vagually familiar but she could not place it.

Mesaana lacks the stereotypical Aes Sedai face, why? She never sworn anything three times on an Oath Rod, which is what prisoners did prior Ages.

If shes posing as an Aes Sedai, she would of had to created that stereotypical youthful tight face with an inverted weave.

Secondly we know that Alviarin is now getting regular punishment from Sylvana.

Which leads to the question, of who else is Sylvana punishing currently: Egwene.

If anyone could figure out an inverted weave, it would be Egwene. She knows how to create that particular inverted weave, after holding Moghedien for a long time as a prisoner with the Salidar Aes Sedai. Cadsuane & likely Nynaeve could also piercing that inverted mask if Mesaana was close to either of them.


Not its just me but if someone was beating me every day with no end in sight I would probably have the person doing the beating in my mind a lot. I don't recally any scene where Alviarin suddenly goes "eureka I know who Mesaana is, its that bi**h Sylvana"

Mesaana would be more clued in to Egwene's current state of disobedience, if she was Sylvana. But Mesaana was clueless in a meeting with the other Forsaken, Aran'gar had to clue in Mesaana irc what Egwene's aims were after being captured at North Harbor port entrance (Leane at South Harbor).


Mesaana, likely is not the friendless White Ajah Norine Dovarna either. Norine envy's Alvirian position in aCoS, then later in the same prologue Mesaasa teaches Alvirian how to 'Travel'.


Mesaana has blue eyes & wears a Brown, Yellow dresses - 'a dress of bronze silk with black scrollwork'. Neither Sylvana a Red, nor Norine Dovarna matches what we know Mesaana wears or looks like.

[Davian93]

Being a nobody is all good and well but the Chosen (other than Moggy) seem to be A Type personalities that NEED to be in charge of things. She's not perfect so its possible that Mesanna made herself a person of power simply because she couldn't help herself.

[Weird Harold]

Being a nobody is all good and well but the Chosen (other than Moggy) seem to be A Type personalities that NEED to be in charge of things. She's not perfect so its possible that Mesanna made herself a person of power simply because she couldn't help herself.
That's true of the Male Forsaken for the most part, but Greandal is posing as an old lady far from the center of power, Lanfear chose Keille Shaogi as her disguise in the Aiel waste but otherwise didn't assume a secret identity at all, Semirhage posed as Anath, and of course Moggy routinely chose servant disguises when she wore a disguise at all.

Mesaana would be completely consistent with female forsaken behavior to choose a position where she could be the power behind the power-behind-the-throne without locking herself into a position with responsibilities and expectations.

[Terez]

Meh, Silviana's reaction to Egwene's questions, in particular, rules her out for me. She's too sensible and likable to be Mesaana - I think Silviana is one of RJ's attempts to make the Red Ajah seem less evil.

I suspected Duhara till she showed up in Caemlyn.

[hippie-joe]

Which leads to the question, of who else is Sylvana punishing currently: Egwene.

If anyone could figure out an inverted weave, it would be Egwene. She knows how to create that particular inverted weave, after holding Moghedien for a long time as a prisoner with the Salidar Aes Sedai. Cadsuane & likely Nynaeve could also piercing that inverted mask if Mesaana was close to either of them.

the beauty of inverted weaves is that you can't see them... no matter how familiar with them you are.

i agree with davian and the type A person thing, which was another coal to the fire in my book.

Silviana is the only one that would know about the "penance" alvi sent her to inflict on elaida, that is unless there was someone else with Silviana when alvi sent her to that task.

as far as arangar cluing her in on stuff, i don't recall all that, and haven't gotten that far in my reread.



i was starting to get bored on here so i had to start something to perk everyone back up

[Neilbert]

Silviana is the only one that would know about the "penance" alvi sent her to inflict on elaida, that is unless there was someone else with Silviana when alvi sent her to that task.

Messaana spies on Alvarian's meetings with Elaida, and undoubtedly has other sources within the Tower.

[Weird Harold]

Silviana is the only one that would know about the "penance" alvi sent her to inflict on elaida, that is unless there was someone else with Silviana when alvi sent her to that task.

Mesaana has Elaida's Study "bugged" --


"Tell me what happened, child." The voice was crystal chimes.


On her knees, Alviarin repeated every word that Elaida had said, though she wondered why it was necessary. In the beginning she had left out unimportant bits, and Mesaana knew every time, demanded every word, every gesture and facial expression. Plainly she eavesdropped on those meetings. Alviarin had tried to work out the logic of it and failed. Some things did work to logic, though.

[hippie-joe]

ok well scratch off another name from the, 'who could messaana be?' list

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yeah, it isn't Rand, RJ has confirmed that. Or was that about another whodunnit?

[Sodas]

Not much to add but count me amongst those who believe Mesaana not to be posing as an Aes Sedai. Unlike other organizations and goverments, the White Tower is mired in unspoken rules that would expose an outsider.

I happen to agree with the A personality type not wanting to be an Accepted, Novice or Servant.

So really, I don't think Mesaana is in the White Tower itself. Maybe in the city instead. Afterall, I don't think she would be stupid enough to reveal everything...

[greatwolf]

Mesaana has Elaida's Study "bugged" --

You don't have conclusive proof, merely an assumption. Unless Mesaana were using saidin or TP, i doubt strongly she'd want her weaves detected. It could easily expose her.

Not much to add but count me amongst those who believe Mesaana not to be posing as an Aes Sedai. Unlike other organizations and goverments, the White Tower is mired in unspoken rules that would expose an outsider.

Agreed.

So really, I don't think Mesaana is in the White Tower itself. Maybe in the city instead. Afterall, I don't think she would be stupid enough to reveal everything...

She might. Graendal doesn't mind giving a show, and it was rather popular in their age.:D

[GonzoTheGreat]

You don't have conclusive proof, merely an assumption. Unless Mesaana were using saidin or TP, i doubt strongly she'd want her weaves detected. It could easily expose her.She may not have to use weaves at all. The Tower is rather old, and in the good old days people were aware of the advantages of being able to snoop unobserved.
So it is possible there's some hidden knothole in Elaida's study which can be reached through one of the secret corridors that not even the BA knows about.

Nynaeve does something similar, when she sneaks into the ward around the Little Tower in order to eavesdrop on the meeting with Tarna.

AS being what they are, I suspect they never even think of such a possibility. If it doesn't use the OP, then it can't be relevant.

[greatwolf]

Far better to stay away. Mesaana could probably use alvi's cell phone to eavesdrop on those conversations. But if she can see facial expressions, then it means she's actually present not so?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Well, she may be hiding in a closet or something like that. Or perhaps she has some sort of periscope like contraption.

[Purple Dragon]

Mesaana lacks the stereotypical Aes Sedai face, why? She never sworn anything three times on an Oath Rod, which is what prisoners did prior Ages.


pssssst... YO!!!! fact checksum error... incorrect conclusion...

PRIOR Ages? nonono just... NO... a type of "punishment" sure, but there is no LIMIT to the number of oaths you have to swear OR the TYPE. you could swear to never wear Pink underwear and the Oath would set. just adding in small corrections here;)

[Purple Dragon]

You don't have conclusive proof, merely an assumption. Unless Mesaana were using saidin or TP, i doubt strongly she'd want her weaves detected. It could easily expose her.



Agreed.



She might. Graendal doesn't mind giving a show, and it was rather popular in their age.:D

pssssst! she CAN channel all she wants... and then some... using her NORMAL source of power... there's that nice way to INVERT a weave... = NO NOTICE! you have ALSO seen our ol buddy Moiraine use her necklace to listen in on a conversation...

[GonzoTheGreat]

Of course, not wearing pink underwear can be achieved quite easily without swearing any oaths to that effect. Or at least, I've managed. It could of course be that others have been less lucky.

[greatwolf]

pssssst! she CAN channel all she wants... and then some... using her NORMAL source of power... there's that nice way to INVERT a weave... = NO NOTICE! you have ALSO seen our ol buddy Moiraine use her necklace to listen in on a conversation...

Even an inverted weave can still trip an alarm if there's a ward in place to detect any channleing. Much of the mechanics of that is offscreen, so i'll leave off on the issue. But I still don't see Mesaana tiring herself out tryin to listenm in every time Elaida has a visitor or even for just Elaida and alvi. It'd be tiring because she would have to be very careful not to get found out.

E:Of course, not wearing pink underwear can be achieved quite easily without swearing any oaths to that effect. Or at least, I've managed

Pink?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Which is why the idea of her listening through the keyhole makes so much more sense.

[Weird Harold]

You don't have conclusive proof, merely an assumption. Unless Mesaana were using saidin or TP, i doubt strongly she'd want her weaves detected. It could easily expose her.

I did not say that Mesaana used the OP to "bug Elaida's Study or even specificy how she might attain the effect of the RW slang term "bugged." The point is that she knows what is siad in Elaida's study within minutes of the meeting -- she was either there at every meeting or she has some way of listiening in to those meetings.

Since Elaida and Alviarin were alone for the meeting that triggered Alviarin's conclusion I rather think she's got some way of listening in. I don't know whether it's using inverted and/or reversed weaves or some full-sensory holographic recorder she found in a stasis box along with the call wand she gave Alviarin I have no idea.

We only really know that, according to Alviarin, Mesaana knows when Alviarin leaves out any little detail of what happens in Elaida's study and must therefore already know what happened there. "Bugged" is a generic slang term for having covert sources of information whatever technical details are involved.

[greatwolf]

Oh, Gonzo and I were merely sorting out the details of the "bugging". I still prefer some aol artifact though. Elaida lives quite high up you know, and sending a weave over some distance and keeping it there for God knows how long could be distracting and tiring. I don't think Mesaana is the type that likes work.

[tworiverswoman]

Remember the "call box" that Sammael gave to the Shaido? We have evidence that SOME forms of technology have been found by the Forsaken and put into use.

So, yes, Mesaana may have used some unknown-to-the-3rd-Age device, or she may have tied off an eavesdropping weave or two scattered around the tower.

I'm not too inclined to believe in secret passages in the White Tower. It's been occupied too long by too many women with long noses.

[Weird Harold]

Remember the "call box" that Sammael gave to the Shaido? We have evidence that SOME forms of technology have been found by the Forsaken and put into use.

Even closer to thepoint, we know Mesaana has access to some AOL communications technology:

Tiny Red Rod
A ter'angreal in the form of a tiny red rod the size of a forefinger. It is smooth except for a few fine lines worked into the surface in a sinuous interconnecting pattern. It is a signal device activated by touching it with Fire and Earth and pressing on the end.

References
CoT,Ch21 - Fearing discovery, Alviarin uses the tiny red rod to signal Mesaana to come to her.
KoD,Prologue – Alviarin is afraid to summon Mesaana with the tiny red rod fearing that she will kill her.


Still, how Mesaana is listening in on what happens in Elaida's study (or the Amyrlin's Study before Elaida moved) doesn't really matter as much as the fact that she IS monitoring Elaida's contacts and plotting.

[greatwolf]

Even closer to thepoint, we know Mesaana has access to some AOL communications technology:.

Raises a very good question. Where did she get it? Lying around somewhere, or she got into the WT storeroom? She has obviously been there and might have found a way past the wards. She is forsaken afterall.

E: that reminds me, the Empress did have a collection of artefacts from the aol. Where are they now she's apparently dead?

[GonzoTheGreat]

It is quite possible that the White Tower had a couple of things which they didn't recognise as ter'angreal, possibly because they weren't.
An ordinary radio or webcam might go entirely undetected by AS, since they are totally focussed on OP use. All Mesaana would have to do is recharge the batteries now and then, and some vigorous peddling on a home trainer can take care of that. Assuming you have an appropriate adaptor, of course.

[greatwolf]

It is quite possible that the White Tower had a couple of things which they didn't recognise as ter'angreal, possibly because they weren't.
An ordinary radio or webcam might go entirely undetected by AS, since they are totally focussed on OP use. All Mesaana would have to do is recharge the batteries now and then, and some vigorous peddling on a home trainer can take care of that. Assuming you have an appropriate adaptor, of course.

Mesaana isn't an exercise freak, I think. But an artefact like that is unlikely to survive 3000years in the open. It would have to be in storage, and that means custody. So may be she killed the former owner to get it. And likely using her guise to move around the WT. Usually that kind of collection might be with a brown AS. Or someone as wealthy as the Empress.

[Enigma]

If she wanted to pick up a ter'angreal she would not have to go hunting for it. After all the AS spent the last 3000 years trying to get their hands on anything remotly connected to either the OP or the Age of Legends.

Angreal and Sa'angreal are guarded but I don't recall any suggestion that ter'angreal are being guarded.

As far as bugging Elaida's office with the OP if Elaida did detect the weave she is not to know it is from a forsaken. Nearly every AS in the tower would like to know what is going on in her room and some of them might just be willing to break custrom and listen it.

Elaida would just assume that it is some random AS with no respect for her position which would probably drive her even more nuts that she is about the respect due to the Amyrin Seat. That would suit the forsaken just fine.

[Weird Harold]

Angreal and Sa'angreal are guarded but I don't recall any suggestion that ter'angreal are being guarded.


It's implied that someof those killed when the Keystone Koven fled were guarding the storerooms:

"Do not invoke Liandrin's name here, child!" the Amyrlin snapped. Leane watched them with a stern serenity.

"Mother, Liandrin is Black Ajah," Elayne burst out.

"That is known, child. Suspected, at least, and as good as known. Liandrin left the Tower some months ago, and twelve other – women – went with her. None has been seen since. Before they left, they tried to break into the storeroom where the angreal and sa'angreal are kept, and did manage to enter that where the smaller ter'angreal are stored. They stole a number of those, including several we do not know the use of."

...

"Theft," the Amyrlin went on in tones as cold as her eyes, "was the least of what they did. Three sisters died that night, as well as two Warders, seven guards, and nine of the servants. Murder, done to hide their thieving and their flight. It may not be proof they were – Black Ajah" – the words grated from her mouth – "but few believe otherwise. Nor do I, in truth. When there are fish heads and blood in the water, you don't need to see the silverpike to know they are there."

Also, when Padan Fain stole the Ruby Dagger back from the storerrom, he killed the accepted, Verine, who was on watch:

He spun, dagger reaching, but the air around him seemed to turn solid, encasing him from his neck to the sole of his boots. He hung there, on the balls of his feet, dagger extended to stab, staring at Alviarin as she shut the door behind her and leaned against it to study him. There had been no creak this time. The soft scraping of the dying girl's slippers on the floorstones could never have masked it. He blinked away sweat that was suddenly stinging his eyes.

"Did you really think," the Aes Sedai went on, "that there would be no guard on this room, no watch kept? A ward was set on that lock. That young fool's task tonight was to monitor it. Had she done as she was supposed to, you would find a dozen Warders and as many Aes Sedai outside this door now. She is paying the price of her stupidity."

[Enigma]

It seems that the guard on the ter'angreal is or at least was a lot lighter that any security around the angreal and sa'angreal.

If one were a forsaken with the ability to invert active weaves and good with compulsion it should not have been too hard for her to mess with the mind of anyone on guard.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Alternatively, she could have been the one who ordered the Keystone Koven to do what they did in order to get this one ter'angreal, and all the rest might have been misdirection.

Or perhaps there's another explanation entirely. Maybe Mesaana commonly disguises herself as a sofa in Elaida's sitting room.

[Weird Harold]

Alternatively, she could have been the one who ordered the Keystone Koven to do what they did in order to get this one ter'angreal, and all the rest might have been misdirection.

Or perhaps there's another explanation entirely. Maybe Mesaana commonly disguises herself as a sofa in Elaida's sitting room.
Not a bad idea, there.

But...

Isn't there a list of all ter'angreal that went missing with the Keystone Koven? I know that most of the ter'angreal stolen are known (and since recovered) , but I don't know if those constitute the complete list of missing ter'angreal that Egwene and Nyneave were given.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Oh yes, Verin gave them a list. Now, whether or not Verin is to be trusted to be complete in the information she passes on ...

[Enigma]

I believe Moghedien took some of the ter'angreal when she finally revealed herself to the the group but I would have though that some of them would have wondered what was the ter'angreal that forsaken x took was if any of the items they stole were taken by another forsaken.

[GonzoTheGreat]

If they knew it was taken by a Forsaken. It is also possible that they had gotten orders to leave something in a specific place without being told who would pick it up.

[tworiverswoman]

Or whatever it is might be something that was found in a stasis box. We have seen a few references to them, and the hodgepodge of things that were stored in them.

Gonzo, I got the impression that the tech devices from the AoL were all designed to be activated in some fashion by the OP, though I recall that some things worked even though the user was mundane. Nevertheless, they don't appear to have ever discovered electricity.

Pretty nearly every item stolen by the Koven was either related to dreaming, or was a weapon, like the balefire rod, I think. The little red "pager" may have even been something that Mesaana had on her person the day she was trapped by the bore, for all we know.

[greatwolf]

Or whatever it is might be something that was found in a stasis box.

Do you have anything that leads you to believe Mesaana found a stasis box? I think Ishy had too much advantage here, he's probably looted any stasis box worth looting by now.

The little red "pager" may have even been something that Mesaana had on her person the day she was trapped by the bore, for all we know

I dont really see the hundred companions leaving anything of value behind after the raid on SG. Especially a communication device. And she found one to give to alviarhin. That makes two.

[hippie-joe]

She may not have to use weaves at all. The Tower is rather old, and in the good old days people were aware of the advantages of being able to snoop unobserved.
So it is possible there's some hidden knothole in Elaida's study which can be reached through one of the secret corridors that not even the BA knows about.

Nynaeve does something similar, when she sneaks into the ward around the Little Tower in order to eavesdrop on the meeting with Tarna.

AS being what they are, I suspect they never even think of such a possibility. If it doesn't use the OP, then it can't be relevant.

that's very possible, i mean the novice rooms have holes where they can talk to them room next door, and they can hear each other clear enough to hear the girl in the other room sobing at night as they cry them selves to sleep.

whos to say there isn't something similar. good one i hadn't thought of that


Not much to add but count me amongst those who believe Mesaana not to be posing as an Aes Sedai. Unlike other organizations and goverments, the White Tower is mired in unspoken rules that would expose an outsider.


there is always the trick AoLer's know, you know, the one were they invert the weave and make it undetectable

[hippie-joe]

pssssst... YO!!!! fact checksum error... incorrect conclusion...

PRIOR Ages? nonono just... NO... a type of "punishment" sure, but there is no LIMIT to the number of oaths you have to swear OR the TYPE. you could swear to never wear Pink underwear and the Oath would set. just adding in small corrections here;)

yeah i think when they join the black ajah they have the old oaths removed and then swear new ones to not betray the BA.

i think i got that from a galina POV after she was captured by the shaido, but i could be wrong. i do clearly recall that being the case if the source is wrong.

[hippie-joe]

I did not say that Mesaana used the OP to "bug Elaida's Study or even specificy how she might attain the effect of the RW slang term "bugged." The point is that she knows what is siad in Elaida's study within minutes of the meeting -- she was either there at every meeting or she has some way of listiening in to those meetings.

Since Elaida and Alviarin were alone for the meeting that triggered Alviarin's conclusion I rather think she's got some way of listening in. I don't know whether it's using inverted and/or reversed weaves or some full-sensory holographic recorder she found in a stasis box along with the call wand she gave Alviarin I have no idea.

We only really know that, according to Alviarin, Mesaana knows when Alviarin leaves out any little detail of what happens in Elaida's study and must therefore already know what happened there. "Bugged" is a generic slang term for having covert sources of information whatever technical details are involved.

i was just thinking that b4 i read you post, there could be some kind of listening device ter'angreal, damn you for beating me to the punch!

maybe i've been reading things wrong, i recall mesaana not knowing about the body language, which is why she wanted the recaps including every nuance. it would make sense if she could only hear, i mean why bother with alvi if you had the whole picture already.

also, in concern to what others have said, how do we know that every meeting is warded. i would think that some meetings, in the heat of anger/annoyance, would go unwarded out of carelessness

[hippie-joe]

Mesaana isn't an exercise freak, I think. But an artefact like that is unlikely to survive 3000years in the open. It would have to be in storage, and that means custody. So may be she killed the former owner to get it. And likely using her guise to move around the WT. Usually that kind of collection might be with a brown AS. Or someone as wealthy as the Empress.
i don't think she's a work out freak either, but then that's what minians/lackies/croonies are for. then all you need is a whip, hell she doesn't really even need that.

i like to think she leveled up enough and earned enough available power points and money to go to the black market corner store and purchase her fun little gadgets.

the one they don't tell you about is the smooth purple rod flat on one end with vertical lines around a knob and curved on the other end. about 9 inches long, and that when you turn the knob, if you set it on a table, it jumps around and dances all over the place. she uses that one on those cold, lonely nights.
:D