A basis for time travel?

[greatwolf]

I'm rereading TGH right now, and I noticed something that may provide a basis for time travel possibly in the aol. Whether it was praticed or not, it seems a rather tantalizing opening offered by RJ.

"She is a fascinating woman, isn't she? Some of the Elders don't know as much as she does about
history-especially the Age of Legends-and about-oh, yes. She says you were right about the Ways, Rand. The
Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She
says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you
might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round.
Those worlds - this one, all the others - are reflections of the real world, she says. This one seems pale to us
because it is a weak reflection, a world that had little chance of ever being. Others are almost as likely as ours.
Those are as solid as our world, and have people. The same people, she says, Rand. Imagine it! You could go to
one of them and meet yourself. The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will
be."

All possible variations? Perhaps that includes the DO being free. That may be why that particular world was rather empty. But part of the theory was proven correct since Rand's party ended up ahead of Fain, by tracking them where they would be. So could the AS have devised some means to travel across time using these reflections? Is that part of the way the ways function?

I think I've seen some discussion like these before but I don't know if these questions have been answered. Or can be answered.:(

[Sarevok]

All possible variations? Perhaps that includes the DO being free. That may be why that particular world was rather empty. But part of the theory was proven correct since Rand's party ended up ahead of Fain, by tracking them where they would be. So could the AS have devised some means to travel across time using these reflections? Is that part of the way the ways function?

I think I've seen some discussion like these before but I don't know if these questions have been answered. Or can be answered.:(
Hmm, interesting. I could see how this could easily being used to travel forward in time, although that would of course have limited use.
I can't see how it could be used to travel back, unless there are world where time doesn't only change "dimension", but also direction.

[Spidy]

I've had this feeling for the last few months that to seal the DO up again is going to need portal stones and T'A'R combined in some way.

[greatwolf]

I can't see how it could be used to travel back, unless there are world where time doesn't only change "dimension", but also direction.

That's part of the quote sare, though it does not specify how to move backwards.

[Sarevok]

That's part of the quote sare, though it does not specify how to move backwards.
*goes read the wuote again*
Are you referring to this part:
Spend a day in one of those, and you
might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty.
?

That still talks time going forward in both worlds, albeit at different speeds.

[Zanguini]

didnt RJ say something about this... but in reference to TAR.
Something to the effect that moving backwards is impossible but moving forward at different speeds is, that time flows in one direction.

somewhere time flowing in the opposite direction i thing would break the wheel

[Mort]

All possible variations? Perhaps that includes the DO being free. That may be why that particular world was rather empty. But part of the theory was proven correct since Rand's party ended up ahead of Fain, by tracking them where they would be. So could the AS have devised some means to travel across time using these reflections? Is that part of the way the ways function?
.

All those portal stones are based on how the pattern weaves and the endless variations it can become. The only constant in those worlds are that the DO is still sealed in his prison. This mainly because the DO is outside the pattern and isn't affected by the wheel's weavings to the same extent (or not at all) as everyone living inside the pattern.

This has been stated by either Lanfear when she met Rand in one of those other worlds, Verin when talking to Egwene about TAR and other worlds and also RJ I think.

Why one of those worlds were unpopulated, or seemed to be anyway, was because the Trollocs won the trolloc wars I think it was. Which doesn't necessarily mean the DO is free.

About the time traveling, I think the time doesn't flow backwards, only at a slower speed forward. That would mean that you can come out from one of those worlds and it has gone 20 years, but you were only in there one year. Or you were in there 20 years, and it has only gone one year etc. You probably couldn't come out and the present time is now some time before you stepped through the portal stone.

[Weird Harold]

I'm rereading TGH right now, and I noticed something that may provide a basis for time travel possibly in the aol. Whether it was praticed or not, it seems a rather tantalizing opening offered by RJ.

"Time Travel" was practiced in the AOL, but it seems to have been 'one-way' Travel of the sort illustrated in Woody Allen's movie Sleeper (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070707/). Study of other worlds, dimensions, and vacuoles led to things like Stasis Boxes where Time is stopped or slowed to a near-stop, but I haven't seen anything from the AOL that even hinted at the ability to Travel backwards in time.

The only hint I've seen of Time Travel was in tFOH Ch 31, The Far Snows and that's a very nebulous hint and controversial theory.

[greatwolf]

That still talks time going forward in both worlds, albeit at different speeds.

The
Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She
says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you
might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round.Those worlds - this one, all the others - are reflections of the real world,

I was thinking of the bolded bit. At first glance it seems to say time could flow backwards in those worlds, but it may mean something else too. But even if it doesn't, the fact that the pattern produces all possible variants means that some worlds are likely to exist in the future (like the one Rand's party was in) and some in the past.

Rand used the portal stone to try to reach falme as well. IIRC, he experienced some events from the past, though I'm not too certain of this.

However, as long as some world exist in a different time zone, AS could travel to worlds as a form of time travel. Of course RJ said it took a lot of the OP to travel to other worlds and I think he meant worlds in the same time zone as the present world. Going to the same world in a different time zone may take more of the OP.

Why one of those worlds were unpopulated, or seemed to be anyway, was because the Trollocs won the trolloc wars I think it was. Which doesn't necessarily mean the DO is free.

I know that, I was just speculating that maybe the trollocs won in the first place because the DO had been freed. Or, if not, then the victory of trollocs over humanity should have brought the DO's release eventually. Perhaps that hasn't happened on that world yet, but I fail to see why not.

didnt RJ say something about this... but in reference to TAR.
Something to the effect that moving backwards is impossible but moving forward at different speeds is, that time flows in one direction.

you'll have to quote it, zan. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Are you making it up?:)

but I haven't seen anything from the AOL that even hinted at the ability to Travel backwards in time.

I have, but it isn't definite so I won't even mention it. But what I'm talking about here is that the possibility exists, not whether there was a regular train service. For me, I think its a very strong possibility.

The portal stone worlds (mirror worlds) share some characteristics with the ways and also with TAR. It was Egwene's study of TAR that gave her the insight to Travelling so there may be some connection between them. A common factor(s).

TAR may be restrictive in that you may not be able to manipulate time there, but Travelling can be manipulated. Its just that since Travelling requires you to know your destination well (IIRC) then you probably cant travel to another person's past.

[Zanguini]

If only Rand can break the seal on the DO to fix the thing. Then in no other worlds can the DO be loose. Because Rands particular world is the main one. Now after he fails or succeeds thats when you can have alternate worlds where the DO is loose or not. But it wont happen in any world until Rand does his thing.

[Sodas]

I'm rereading TGH right now, and I noticed something that may provide a basis for time travel possibly in the aol. Whether it was praticed or not, it seems a rather tantalizing opening offered by RJ.



All possible variations? Perhaps that includes the DO being free. That may be why that particular world was rather empty. But part of the theory was proven correct since Rand's party ended up ahead of Fain, by tracking them where they would be. So could the AS have devised some means to travel across time using these reflections? Is that part of the way the ways function?

I think I've seen some discussion like these before but I don't know if these questions have been answered. Or can be answered.:(

No, time travel is not possible in WoT. Why am I so certain? Because the Dark One can't step outside time to save his minions from Balefire. Sorry.

The point of those worlds is that Time moves more rapidly or with oddities, such as worm hole/black hole time distortion. An interesting concept, but consider the source.

[greatwolf]

No, time travel is not possible in WoT. Why am I so certain? Because the Dark One can't step outside time to save his minions from Balefire. Sorry.

I see. Well the DO cant channel the OP either so I guess its all an illusion. Nice try though. I almost fell for it.

What's the source? The portal stones? Rand and party journeyed to another world where they followed the trail of where the horn would be. Would. They exited at a place far ahead of Fain and co and Fain eventually came there. That proves they were able to get a hang of future events through those worlds.

Lanfear didn't have to cook it up. It must have been known in the aol, though how well known is another question.

[greatwolf]

No, time travel is not possible in WoT.

It might be that what happens in the aiel glass columns is a form of time travel. Though its only the mind that goes back in time, and you can't affect anything in the past.

[Mort]

Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that
there were still other worlds - even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed -
lying like this.” She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. “The warp
and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds.”

Straightening, she dusted her hands. “Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them.”
In spite of herself, Egwene stepped closer to peer at the lines Verin had drawn. “In all of them? How can
that be? Are you saying there is a Father of Lies for each world?” The thought of so many Dark Ones made her
shiver.

“No, child. There is one Creator, who exists everywhere at once for all of these worlds. In the same way,
there is only one Dark One, who also exists in all of these worlds at once. If he is freed from the prison the
Creator made in one world, he is freed on all. So long as he is kept prisoner in one, he remains imprisoned on
all.”

“That does not seem to make sense,” Egwene protested.
“Paradox, child. The Dark One is the embodiment of paradox and chaos, the destroyer of reason and
logic, the breaker of balance, the unmaker of order.”



Hoped to find something RJ said about the whole subject but that info is kinda scattered around and hard to find.... does anyone know where the complete interview material with RJ is, if there is such a magical place?

[Sodas]

It might be that what happens in the aiel glass columns is a form of time travel. Though its only the mind that goes back in time, and you can't affect anything in the past.


That's called a memory. It's as if memory is encoded in the DNA of a person and passed down over generations. The columns project into the mind those memories so that the subject can see once more a part of once was.

I'm interested in why you think that the Dark One not being able to channel the OP matters. Is not the Dark One the anti-thesis to the Creator with equal power?

and and party journeyed to another world where they followed the trail of where the horn would be. Would. They exited at a place far ahead of Fain and co and Fain eventually came there. That proves they were able to get a hang of future events through those worlds.

So what? That doesn't mean they time traveled.

[Marie Curie 7]

Hoped to find something RJ said about the whole subject but that info is kinda scattered around and hard to find.... does anyone know where the complete interview material with RJ is, if there is such a magical place?

You might try Terez's RJ Interview Database (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=372). It's arranged by subject, but the thread I linked also gives links for the interview source material if you ever want to read the raw stuff.

[greatwolf]

IIRC, the prophcies state clearly that the DO will be freed. So even if it hasn't happened yet, its bound to happen at some point in time.

So what? That doesn't mean they time traveled

So what does it mean then?

[tworiverswoman]

But even if it doesn't, the fact that the pattern produces all possible variants means that some worlds are likely to exist in the future (like the one Rand's party was in) and some in the past.
...
However, as long as some world exist in a different time zone, AS could travel to worlds as a form of time travel. You have a perception error, here. Even if someone does travel to a Portal World, the point is they are traveling to a DIFFERENT PLACE. The Portal Worlds (The Worlds of If...) AREN'T Randland - quite. They are variants caused by different choices, different outcomes. They AREN'T Randland's past OR future. Only possible versions. Which means that your hypothetical Aes Sedai could travel to it, kill off the leader of the Black Ajah, and then come back to Randland Mark Zero to ... the same place she left. Nothing that happens in those worlds affects the benchmark world.


Originally Posted by Sodas
So what? That doesn't mean they time traveled

So what does it mean then? It means that Hurin could still "feel" the object he was hunting. Since it didn't actually exist on the empty world, he was tuned to it in Randland Mark Zero. You do raise an interesting question about them overshooting the actual place the horn WAS when they finally came out. Shrug.

IIRC, the prophcies state clearly that the DO will be freed. So even if it hasn't happened yet, its bound to happen at some point in time. Wrong. Aside from the Dark "prophecies" which are generally dismissed by all concerned as pure propaganda for the enemy team, every prophecy that speaks of the DO's freedom includes the word "if" and conditions. If there is one that you know of that speaks of a sure thing, can you quote it here, please?

[Marie Curie 7]

didnt RJ say something about this... but in reference to TAR.
Something to the effect that moving backwards is impossible but moving forward at different speeds is, that time flows in one direction.

Yeah, it was in relation to TAR.

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

Q: Is Olver Gaidal Cain?
RJ: No. I didn't really think that this would last as long as it has. The timing is wrong. He has another reason for being there besides being a red herring, though.
Q: He's too old.
RJ: Yes. Time in Tel'aran'rhiod and the real world run at different rates, but it never runs backwards. You may spend an hour in Tel'aran'rhiod, and a day has passed when you get back, or you may spend a day, and an hour has passed when you get back, but you'll never go in on Tuesday and come back on Monday.
Q: Is the difference in time constant?
RJ: No. It's fairly random. Sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes the same as real time.
Q: It's different for different people, then?
RJ: Yes. Unless they're together in Tel'aran'rhiod. Then the same amount of time passes for them obviously.

I was thinking of the bolded bit. At first glance it seems to say time could flow backwards in those worlds, but it may mean something else too. But even if it doesn't, the fact that the pattern produces all possible variants means that some worlds are likely to exist in the future (like the one Rand's party was in) and some in the past.

The quote in question means that in some cases time runs faster and in other cases it runs slower. And with respect to mirror worlds representing future and past -- essentially what Tru said. Mirror worlds represent probabilities: the dimmer the world, the lower the probability.

you'll have to quote it, zan. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Are you making it up?

These things are generally easy to find using the Interview Database.

TAR may be restrictive in that you may not be able to manipulate time there, but Travelling can be manipulated. Its just that since Travelling requires you to know your destination well (IIRC) then you probably cant travel to another person's past.

No, to Travel you must know the starting point well.

[Frenzy]

I posted a theory about this on the main page. Here's the link: Time Travel: It could work... (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=113&theo=2416)



wow, that was almost 4 years ago. where does the time go.

[greatwolf]

Thanks for the link Frenzy.

But it appears this is a totally different standpoint from what you have. For one, the quote I used shows that there is infinite variation in the pattern and ALL POSSIBILITIES exist.

Think of it like this: Our RW has different time zones (consider US and NZ). and all exist simultaneously (same time but not same time:) ) We all know travelling backwards, say leave at dawn and you could end up at dusk of the previous day LESS your journey time.

Now in the WoT, there exist worlds for every period in time based on every possibility. If you move from one world to another, you end up in the world you've selected, but at what point in time? And what choices does that world represent?

You're not travelling to or from points yet to be created, they already exist (time is not linear in WoT) you just haven't experienced them. Not that the quote says the AS believed (could they believe it without first hand experience?) that you could actually meet yourself. That might sound a paradox, but it was real for them.

[tworiverswoman]

Once you start using infinity in your arguments, you've pretty much ended the game. If infinity, then ... anything. It's not exactly a zero-sum game, but it's a zero RESULT game, because ... well, infinity. Anything, everything, all possibilities and none. You want three-headed dogs that drool when you play a harp? Infinity says there is one. You want working magic and submarines with wings? Infinity. Check. It's pointless.

HOWEVER. In relation to your original post - going to a Portal World is STILL not "time travel" because it's NOT YOUR WORLD. You've moved laterally, not forward or backward.

As an aside, I'll point out that RJ said, time and again, that his people often thought they knew more than they did. Misinformation, disinformation, wrong questions, false answers... I notice that the original post contains a lot of "she says" comments -- which basically reduces that whole conversation to simple hearsay. I'd throw it out of court, myself.

[greatwolf]

I notice that the original post contains a lot of "she says" comments -- which basically reduces that whole conversation to simple hearsay. I'd throw it out of court, myself.

"she" was proved right.

[Toss the dice]

If time moves forward at different speeds, are there say some worlds you could go to where Thom is 30 years old? Worlds where Min isn't even born yet? I realize time moves forward only, never backwards, but if the speeds are different, could the above theoretically be true? Sure, you would have to pick a world very similar to your own, and travel there knowing full well it isn't your world at all, but in a way it could be a poor-mans backward time travel.

I suppose it's also possible that the above isn't possible at all. And the only way you experience time delays or speed-ups would be when you actually travel say, to and back from another world and come back to your home world and note the time differences. This is one subject I'm not too knowledgable about, been awhile since I read any of the stuff concerning it in the books.

[greatwolf]

That's called a memory. It's as if memory is encoded in the DNA of a person and passed down over generations. The columns project into the mind those memories so that the subject can see once more a part of once was.

It cant be just the body that the columns affect. Rand's body was in it for days till he came out and he had nothing to eat or drink. He had no ill effects after. The simplest conclusion is that time flows differently inside the columns.

Terangreal are usually very specific. They do one thing only. So we would expect that if the glass columns affects time in one way, then its effects on memory is probably also done through time manipulation.

Notice though, that when Rand used the portal stone the second time, his body was absent from the physical world for a period of months. And he didn't have any ill effects of doing so. They may have been held in some sort of suspended animation or in a place where time flow is practically zero till they finally came out.

They lived several lifetimes in the portal stone journey yet physical were no different than if the had spent a day. Its quite likely therefore that the portal stone is a terangreal much similar to the glass columns. Just that one helps experience the past, the other possible futures.

[Zanguini]

I thought portal stones were made before the introduction of the OP, and thus could not be ter'angreal.

[greatwolf]

I thought portal stones were made before the introduction of the OP, and thus could not be ter'angreal.

I think we just had this arguement. Not everything uses the OP. But in this case, it obviously uses the OP since Rand had to channel into it. In fact, I suspect it was probably made by channelers in an age where OP Talents may have been greater than that seen in the aol. Rj did say that the ages vary slightly. IIRC, it was in BS's last post (where is he?). The portal stones might be made in one cycle (of 7ages) and the horn in another and perhaps this ages' contribution may be to heal stilling. Who knows?

[Ozymandias]

No, time travel is not possible in WoT. Why am I so certain? Because the Dark One can't step outside time to save his minions from Balefire. Sorry.

This isn't a refutation of time travel. Specifically, the Dark One needs to capture the soul of the dying person at the moment of his/her death. Balefire means the person is dead before he knows enough to catch their soul. Thus, he cannot Travel back in time in that particular world.

However, it should be theoretically possible, if we assume that every single variation that could ever have possibly happened exists, that you could Travel through time. There would be an infinite number of worlds where time ran faster or slower to an infinite variation of degrees; thus, if you could pick it out, you could travel to any given moment on any given world. Of course, for every possible nanosecond in the future and the past there would have to be an equally infinite number of possible worlds. When you start trying to comprehend that number it becomes ridiculous. In the time its taken me to type this, enough decisions have been made to spawn quadrillions of alternate timelines. Quintillions, even. Imagine, then, have all of those possibilities, except you have to multiply the millions od decisions made in a given second by the millions made in each of the resulting seconds... its essentially that X number squared, and then cubed, and so on and so forth. And then muliptly all that AGAIN because we have to have a base world for all of this for every single second of history, which is an infinite number in and of itself... yeah.

The point being, Time Travel is clearly not impossible.

[greatwolf]

Of course, for every possible nanosecond in the future and the past there would have to be an equally infinite number of possible worlds. When you start trying to comprehend that number it becomes ridiculous.

I think RJ got around that. Some of the mirror worlds are said to be paler reflections of the RW based on how probable they happen to be. I'm thinking that these world may eventually become so thin that they cannot exist. That is the choices are made but they eventually lead to a world that does not exist.

I'm thinking here that it may also mean that any world where they DO is eventually freed may cease to exist after some time. So that even though there is infinite variation, not all those variations are sustainable.

Its like possible variations in chess. Just that each variation becomes a world of its own. Which mightn just be sustainable or not.

[Sodas]

It cant be just the body that the columns affect. Rand's body was in it for days till he came out and he had nothing to eat or drink. He had no ill effects after. The simplest conclusion is that time flows differently inside the columns.

No, the simpliest conclusion is the only conclusion :

Time does not flow differently inside the columns. Nor do people time travel while in them. This is clearly proven by the fact that Rand can see Muradin also moving through the columns, going through his own visions. As Muradin goes through his visions, he rejects them, as Rand watches. He doesn't suddenly disappear back to another time, Rand is able to watch Muradin as those visions appear to him.


Rand shook his head. Too much. Memories crowding together. The air seemed filled with sheet lightning. The wind swirled gritty dust into dancing whirlwinds. Muradin had clawed deep furrows in his face; he was digging at his eyes now. Forward.

So how else do you explain two people traveling through time together? You can't. Those rings are not taking them back in time, they are taking them back to the memories of their ancestors. That is the only conclussion.

[Sodas]

This isn't a refutation of time travel. Specifically, the Dark One needs to capture the soul of the dying person at the moment of his/her death. Balefire means the person is dead before he knows enough to catch their soul. Thus, he cannot Travel back in time in that particular world.

That's all that matters. In this world, he can not Travel back in time. Nor can anyone else for that matter.

However, it should be theoretically possible, if we assume that every single variation that could ever have possibly happened exists

It can't. Mirror worlds are simply a reflection of the current world. All that mirror worlds do is reflect the current situation in Randland, spawning infinite outcomes. Mirror worlds themselves are all based upon actual physics (where, time travel has been currently ruled impossible). Per Jordan,

Question Part 2: I was interested in how the physics like with the Mirror Worlds, the world of If?
Jordan: The Mirror Worlds of course come right out of physics, and the possibility of (mumble) universes and all of the rest of it. But frankly while I don't follow the literature, I haven't for a number of years, I occasionally get stuck on panels with physicists and I am supposed to discuss physics for which I am twenty five years out of date. But I find that I can hold my own, although I do not have a doctorate or did I ever intend to get one (I went to work instead). I can hold my own with the PhDs in physics when they are talking theoretical physics if I stop talking physics, at least from my point of view, and start talking theology and this troubles me.

there would be an infinite number of worlds where time ran faster or slower to an infinite variation of degrees; thus, if you could pick it out, you could travel to any given moment on any given world.

No, you can't travel backwards. You Travel to the current mirror worlds, which need the base of Randland of which to reflect. Everything that happens in a mirror world is AFTER the event in Randland occurs.

I think you are confusing Mirror Worlds and Parallel Worlds.

This is in reference to a previous question I asked you about Parallel Worlds and Mirror Worlds, today I believe, and you mentioned they are different. And the question I had about Portal Stones was, do Portal Stones lead to Parallel Worlds, Mirror Worlds, or both?
Jordan: They lead to Mirror Worlds, the Portal Stones can take you to Mirror Worlds, not to Parallels, which are separate.

Parallel Worlds, are infinitely different than our World, surely. However, per current theory on Parallel Worlds, or even theory 25 years removed, each parallel universe in our multiverse is expected to obey all the same physical laws, including time. But Parallel Worlds do not reflect ours in the distribution of matter, which in layman's terms means that every parallel world is different.

Either way, time travel is not possible. Nor is it hypothetically possible.

[greatwolf]

No, you can't travel backwards. You Travel to the current mirror worlds, which need the base of Randland of which to reflect. Everything that happens in a mirror world is AFTER the event in Randland occurs.

You're not following the discussion. Rand and co were able to locate where the horn would be by using the mirror worlds. Its definitely possibly in WoTland.

[Sodas]

She gave him a look, then nodded. "Yes. Exactly. Those worlds truly are mirrors in a way, especially the ones where there are no people. Some of them reflect only great events in the true world, but some have a shadow of that reflection even before the event occurs. The passage of the Horn of Valere would certaintly be a great event. Reflections of what will be are fainter than reflections of what is or what was, just as Hurin says the trail he followed was faint.

Meaning the passing of the Horn through the Mirror World's creates more reflections, which can be read and followed by Hurin.

They didn't time travel at all to acquire that knowledge.

[Marie Curie 7]

Everything that happens in a mirror world is AFTER the event in Randland occurs.

Your quote in the previous post (#33) says the mirror worlds may reflect what happens in the real world before it actually occurs, which is what happened with the Horn. To reiterate:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 17 - Choices

"You may not have lost the Horn of Valere yet," Selene said slowly. "As you know, I do know a few things about those worlds."

"Mirrors of the Wheel," Loial said.

She gave him a look, then nodded. "Yes. Exactly. Those worlds truly are mirrors in a way, especially the ones where there are no people. Some of them reflect only great events in the true world, but some have a shadow of that reflection even before the event occurs. The passage of the Horn of Valere would certainly be a great event. Reflections of what will be are fainter than reflections of what is or what was, just as Hurin says the trail he followed was faint."

Hurin blinked incredulously. "You mean to say, my Lady, I've been smelling where those Darkfriends are going to be? The Light help me, I wouldn't like that. It's bad enough smelling where violence has been, with out smelling where it will be, too. There can't be many spots where there won't be some kind of violence, some time. It would drive me crazy, like as not. That place we just left nearly did. I could smell it all the time, there, killing and hurting, and the vilest evil you could think of. I could even smell it on us. On all of us. Even on you, my Lady, if you'll forgive me for saying so. It was just that place, twisting me the way it twisted your eye." He gave himself a shake. "I'm glad we're out of there. I can't get it out of my nostrils yet, all the way."

I'm not suggesting that this amounts to time travel. But it does contradict what you said previously in this thread in post #31.

Meaning the passing of the Horn through the Mirror World's creates more reflections, which can be read and followed by Hurin.

The Horn didn't pass through the Mirror Worlds. It remained in the real world.

[Sodas]

Everything that happens in a mirror world is AFTER the event in Randland occurs.
Your quote in the previous post (#33) says the mirror worlds may reflect what happens in the real world before it actually occurs
Not quite what I said. I said what happens in a mirror world. Not what happens in the real world.

Two different things.

I'm talking about traveling through a mirror world. Moving through a Mirror World, everything happens after events in the True World. In other words, you enter into a moment after you leave the true world. Not some future world, or some world of the distant past.

The worlds are the same, but different. That is part of the definition of Mirror. A mirror needs something to reflect. So they reflect worlds in which decisions were made differently than in the past, but they aren't the past. They obviously contain differences in which time moves within that Mirror World, but that has something to do with their position on the Wheel of Time, imht. This is proven by the fact that we see this Mirror World with a faster time rate, allowing for the group to move ahead of where the Horn could have been. But the events of the groups passing through these Mirror Worlds didn't effect anything. Randland moved ahead irreguardless, and Fain eventually runs into them.

This is different than saying when an event(s) is needed in the true world to happen to create a Mirror World. They can happen any time it seems. All the normal Mirror Worlds are usually spawned by past changes in the Pattern. But a small fraction of them seem to be also caused by powerful enough future events. They therefore aren't really worlds in the normal sense, since they are uninhabited. I'd call them worlds of Foreshadowing. But they are strong enough to seemingly leave trails, like shadows, upon other mirror worlds. Including the ones where time moves slower than in the true world. Allowing Rand and co to keep following a scent that hasn't happened yet, to the point of basically passing where the Horn was moving through in the true world.

[greatwolf]

The Aes Sedai, some of them, studied worlds like this, and that study was the basis of how they grew the Ways. She
says there are worlds where it is time rather than distance that changes. Spend a day in one of those, and you
might come back to find a year has passed in the real world, or twenty. Or it could be the other way round.
Those worlds - this one, all the others - are reflections of the real world, she says. This one seems pale to us
because it is a weak reflection, a world that had little chance of ever being. Others are almost as likely as ours.
Those are as solid as our world, and have people. The same people, she says, Rand. Imagine it! You could go to
one of them and meet yourself. The Pattern has infinite variation, she says, and every variation that can be, will
be."

What is clear here is that time changes in these worlds. Manipulating the changes in the desired fashion -forwards or backwards depends on what you want to do and the necessary skill to accomplish it. In our world, it is impossible to meet yourself! But here the possibility exists.

In the particular world Rand visited (how did they get there? another of LT's interventions?) they were able to get a sense of future events though the world itself is said to reflect the RW weakly. What would have happened if the had travelled to a world more solid with similar time modifying properties?

Would they have encountered Fain and co and their mirror world selves, consequently altering the weave of the pattern for that world. For that matter if the pattern takes everything into the weaving, would it not take this as well and adjust for it? The pattern adjusts itself backwards for BF, why not for travel backwards in time?

[Weird Harold]

What is clear here is that time changes in these worlds. Manipulating the changes in the desired fashion -forwards or backwards depends on what you want to do and the necessary skill to accomplish it. In our world, it is impossible to meet yourself! But here the possibility exists.

"meeting yourself" in a mirror world is more like "meeting your clone" or "meeting your evil twin" and has nothing to to with temporal paradoxes.

By choosing worlds with different time rates (or different spatial characteristics) it's possible to live faster or slower than the "real" world, but you cannot go backwards and re-enter the "real" world before you left it.

Moving from one mirror world to another is much like changing lanes on a freeway -- you move faster or slower than the lane you left, but none of the lanes are moving backwards and you can never merge back into your original lane behind yourself.

In the particular world Rand visited (how did they get there? another of LT's interventions?) ...

The answer is Lanfear chose the mirror world and triggered the Portal Stone they were sleeping next to:

TGH,Ch12
First there had been a man with a mask over his face, and fire in place of his eyes. Despite the mask, she had thought he was surprised to see her. His look had frightened her..., but suddenly he vanished, and she saw Rand sleeping on the ground.... A woman had been standing over him, looking down. Her face was in shadow, but her eyes seemed to shine like the moon, and Egwene had known she was evil. Then there was a flash of light, and they were gone. Both of them. And behind it all, almost like another thing altogether, was the feel of danger, as if a trap was just beginning to snap shut on an unsuspecting lamb, a trap with many jaws. As though time had slowed, and she could watch the iron jaws creep closer together.

[Ozymandias]

Moving from one mirror world to another is much like changing lanes on a freeway -- you move faster or slower than the lane you left, but none of the lanes are moving backwards and you can never merge back into your original lane behind yourself.


Well lets say you have Mirror World A and Mirror World B (MW A/B). One moves at double time of the real world, and the other at half time. They both spring into existence simultaneously. Thus, 5 years into MW B, your really 20 years into MW A. And visa versa. Therefore, someone living in MW A can Portal Stone into MW B and exist 15 years in the past. I don't see how that isn't time travel.

[Belazamon]

Well lets say you have Mirror World A and Mirror World B (MW A/B). One moves at double time of the real world, and the other at half time. They both spring into existence simultaneously. Thus, 5 years into MW B, your really 20 years into MW A. And visa versa. Therefore, someone living in MW A can Portal Stone into MW B and exist 15 years in the past. I don't see how that isn't time travel.Because it's not really "their" past, it's just an alternate reality. Now if there was some way to rig it so that you went back to MWA before you left it, that would be time travel. But barring the mythical "worlds where time runs backwards," there does not appear to be a mechanism to do so.

[Weird Harold]

Well lets say you have Mirror World A and Mirror World B (MW A/B). One moves at double time of the real world, and the other at half time. They both spring into existence simultaneously. Thus, 5 years into MW B, your really 20 years into MW A. And visa versa. Therefore, someone living in MW A can Portal Stone into MW B and exist 15 years in the past. I don't see how that isn't time travel.

Are you time traveling when you merge fifteen cars ahead or behind of where you left a lane of traffic?

People in MWa oe MWb can't travel into their OWN past even if they travel to the "slow lane" and wait for a thousand cars to pass before returning to the fast lane -- they aren't getting any closer to their starting point, they're just moving away from it at different rates.

PS: if you don't return to your original time-line, you've just changed timelines rather than "traveling in time."

[4Alethinos]

As usual, WH, I believe you have the right of it. In all of the worlds that Rand went to, he had lost. Yet, in none of them was the DO free. Verin's statements on these issues have stood up since they were made. She knows an awful lot about these issues.

There is zero possibility that the DO will ever get free. He has only the one chance in the so-called real world. It is obvious to the most casual observer that if the DO could get free on his own, he would have done so long ago. It is equally obvious that he needs something that none of the Forsaken can offer. If Rand were to die, the DO will be limited forever limited to the present size of the Bore. What is it that Rand has the none of the most powerful of the Forsaken do not possess?

"Exploring the whichness of the why is always fun." A sendup of E.E. Doc Smith. :)

[Zanguini]

I believe in one age the DO and the Creator have thier roles reveresed

[4Alethinos]

Hehe, that is really funny, Zanguini. They are eternal persons. They do not swap roles. They are polar opposites. The DO has been imprisoned since the creation of the WoT and its universe(s). Those roles cannot be swapped, IMO.

"I strongly suspect that a raised from the dead Robert Jordan would laugh in your face were he not so polite." :D

[Zanguini]

Well in one turn of the age the DO could be free and the Creator imprisoned. Does it not seem plausible?

[Weird Harold]

Well in one turn of the age the DO could be free and the Creator imprisoned. Does it not seem plausible?
Not really.

It is theoretically possible that the Shadow to win a vistory short of the DO's freedom and for Evil to therefore rule the world for an age, but if the DO ever breaks free, the Wheel, the Pattern, and all of the Worlds of If derived from the Wheel and Pattern will cease to exist.

According to Rand's "Creator as Gardener" thought the Creator isn't around to be imprisoned if the DO breaks free. I'm not sure that thought (probably generated by Moridin through the balefire link) is 100% correct but I do believe tha tthe Wheel and Pattern are the DO's prison and His escape means their total destruction.

[Zanguini]

Well that makes since to me. But if the Creator is a Gardener how do you explain his interference in tEotW?

[Weird Harold]

Well that makes since to me. But if the Creator is a Gardener how do you explain his interference in tEotW?
Was that the Creator?

His tone of voice is a lot like the DO's if it was. :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

In all of the worlds that Rand went to, he had lost.There is a rather important detail that you're overlooking, it seems to me: in not a single one of those worlds, as far as we know, had Rand lost to the DO. At most, he lost to Ishamael.

This means that while Rand lost, the DO did not win in any of those worlds. When TG arrives and the DO breaks free (or threatens to do so, at least), then and only then is the real decision.

[greatwolf]

Because it's not really "their" past, it's just an alternate reality. Now if there was some way to rig it so that you went back to MWA before you left it, that would be time travel. But barring the mythical "worlds where time runs backwards," there does not appear to be a mechanism to do so.

Remember balefire? Really we already have enough proof that time can be altered both by the pattern and OP. Its a question of what direction the effects go. You can add Lanfear's statement to the proof.

There is zero possibility that the DO will ever get free. He has only the one chance in the so-called real world. It is obvious to the most casual observer that if the DO could get free on his own, he would have done so long ago

OTOH, it is certain he will get free. Verin's conclusions come from one trip via portal stone. If it was certain that the DO would never be free, then the aol AS would have gone to sleep and had nothing to worry about. He will break free. It is a matter of how and when. Will the dragon be there to stop him?

If the DO breaks free on one world where different choices have been made, and the dragon makes a choice that ends in victory for the shadow, does that world continue to exist on the long run? I think infinite variation means exactly what it says, that the DO could be free on some worlds (a very possible variation) but are those worlds sustainable or are they also outside the pattern once in the DO's hands?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Perhaps Rand will remember how to make vacuoles?
That'd be a beautiful anti climax:

TG arrives, everyone panics. DO breaks free, stalks through the world. Rand confronts him. DO charges at Rand. Rand makes vacuole. DO blunders into it. Vacuole detaches from the Pattern, as they always do. Everyone lives happily ever after.

[Weird Harold]

I think infinite variation means exactly what it says, that the DO could be free on some worlds (a very possible variation) but are those worlds sustainable or are they also outside the pattern once in the DO's hands?

All of the Worlds of If are branches from the "real world" of the Story's timeline, they're part of the Wheel and Pattern, no matter how many of them there may be.

The DO is OUTSIDE of the Pattern (and Imprisoned by the Wheel.) He is a singular entity unaffected by the splitting and branching of the Worlds of If generated by the Pattern.

If the DO is freed from his Prison, "he will remake the Wheel in His own image" -- or Destroy it completely, depending on which Doomsday scenario you prefer -- which will affect the entire multiverse the Creator designed.

The DO is like King Kong climbing the Empire State Building; It doesn't matter which floor you're on, he's still outside of the window and you're still going to die if he destroys the building and he's too big to get into any one floor without destroying the building.

[4Alethinos]

I did not imply that that Rand had lost to the DO. He lost to Ishamael. That loss did not set the DO free. That is clear from the text and supporting statements from Verin.

It is an incorrect statement to say that time is/was shifted by balefire. That is exactly what does not happen. It is stated clearly that the being so balefired will have their acts erased from the pattern back to the point that the strength of the balefire takes him/her.

Time was not reversed when Rand balefired Rahvin. It was his deeds that were eliminated with the consequence that Mat and those surrounding him were not killed. That is not time reversal. It is the removing of acts committed. We have to be careful of our terminology here or at least our understanding of what takes place. It is the Pattern that gets torn with all kinds of causality links being destroyed in the process.

RJ made a very complex thing when he introduced balefire. The potential for paradoxes is very large.

"I saw a pairadoxies once, but they would not play except for pay." :)

[greatwolf]

The DO is OUTSIDE of the Pattern (and Imprisoned by the Wheel.) He is a singular entity unaffected by the splitting and branching of the Worlds of If generated by the Pattern.

The creator is also outside the pattern but unlike DO, not imprisoned. Outside the pattern may also mean outside of time. Yet some things within the pattern affect the DO such as the bore (and Rand's "mighty" blow at the eye)so he is not immune.

A world in which time has stopped or tthere is no time may be same as a world in which the DO is free if the nature of the DO's prison is time based. It might cease to "exist" in the pattern and be cut off to prevent the spread of the contagion.

[Weird Harold]

The creator is also outside the pattern but unlike DO, not imprisoned. Outside the pattern may also mean outside of time.

You're missing the point that the Creator and DO are singular enitities -- there is only ONE of each and they don't shed mirror world copies of themselves every time they sneeze.

Because the DO is singular and ouside of the Pattern what happens to him happens simultaneously in all world and dimensions.

King Kong is always outside of the Empire State building. He can reach inside and touch a room or floor, but he's too big to fit inside; all he can do is touch what is inside. When he's gone, he is gone from every floor and every window.

Whether the DO destroys the Wheel or just wanders away in pursuit of the Creator doesnt' really matter. Since he's he's a singular entity outside of the Pattern -- which includes all of the mirror worlds -- whatever he does when free happens outside of all the mirror worlds at the same time.

Just because the DO can reach into any given mirror world through it's equivalent of the Bore and destroy that mirror world doesn't mean he is free of his prison in that world, it just means that he can touch that world more than he can others.

[greatwolf]

You're missing the point that the Creator and DO are singular enitities -- there is only ONE of each and they don't shed mirror world copies of themselves every time they sneeze.


...King Kong is always outside of the Empire State building. He can reach inside and touch a room or floor, but he's too big to fit inside; all he can do is touch what is inside. When he's gone, he is gone from every floor and every window.

:confused:

You can shoot at king kong on one floor or even on three floors without shooting at him on all floors. E: From this analogy, what happens on one world doesn't have to happen on others.

Remember much of this supposition is based on Verin's theory. And she's been wrong a number of times. Demira?

[Weird Harold]

:confused:

You can shoot at king kong on one floor or even on three floors without shooting at him on all floors. E: From this analogy, what happens on one world doesn't have to happen on others.

Remember much of this supposition is based on Verin's theory. And she's been wrong a number of times. Demira?
But what happens to the DO doesn't happen in any world. The DO is outside the Pattern and whatever happens to him is outside of the Pattern.

You can shoot at King King from any window, but if you kill him from ANY window, he's dead from the viewpoint of ALL windows. Conversely, He can only affect what's inside the building with whatever he can fit through a window or vent but He remains outside and Alive or Dead (Free or Imprisoned) from any viewpoint inside the building.

[greatwolf]

still seems a poor analogy to me. I mean how do you explain the bore for instance. An opening was made that wasn't there before. It leads to... well maybe a place outside the pattern. But king kong cant come into the building no matter how big the door is or the building collapses. If its large enough to contain KK, then there's no need for conflict in the first instance. KK becomes just another piece on the board for the pattern to play with.

[GonzoTheGreat]

still seems a poor analogy to me. I mean how do you explain the bore for instance. An opening was made that wasn't there before. It leads to... well maybe a place outside the pattern. But king kong cant come into the building no matter how big the door is or the building collapses. If its large enough to contain KK, then there's no need for conflict in the first instance. KK becomes just another piece on the board for the pattern to play with.
The bore is easy: a hole in the roof through which he can pee. Patch the hole badly, and it still leaks. Patch it well, and the building is watertight (and, more importantly, peetight) once again.

[greatwolf]

The first problem with the analogy is size. KK cant get onto any one floor. To get in the building, he'll need simultaneous opening one several (most if not all) floors. How does that work out?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Well, just like the Dark One, King Kong isn't intend on getting in at all, he just wants to destroy it.
Problem solved.

[Weird Harold]

still seems a poor analogy to me. I mean how do you explain the bore for instance. An opening was made that wasn't there before. It leads to... well maybe a place outside the pattern. But king kong cant come into the building no matter how big the door is or the building collapses. If its large enough to contain KK, then there's no need for conflict in the first instance. KK becomes just another piece on the board for the pattern to play with.
King King is an incomplete anaology, because He's not imprisoned by the Empire State Building, but he's useful for demonstrating the two concepts of "He's Outside and "He won't fit inside."

As for the "Bore," any window in the building can serve as the analogy for the Bore -- The Bore is just the access that allows those inside to perceive the Monster Outside and Allows the Monster outside to touch the inside only as much as the Monster can reach through the Bore.

The main point though is the the DO is a singular entity on the outside; whatever happens to him happens is visible from every mirror world that is aware of him and therefore happens simultaneously in ALL Mirror Worlds.

If The "monster outside" did somehow manage to get inside one particular office inside the building, He would disappear from the perceptions of every other office -- ie He would be "free" as far as those worlds were concerned because He would no longer be in his Prison even if they have no idea where he escaped to.

As long as the DO's prison is 'Outside' His status as imprisoned or free is the same for all possible mirror worlds, no matter how far he can reach into any world or worlds that have an open Bore to reach through.