DM's review

[Isabel]

Hey all,

Jason from DM put up a review for TGS.

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=585

This makes me happy and sad:(
Happy that he likes the book and that people seem to like it. However, it makes me sad that RJ couldn't finish it.
He wrote all the books to set everything up for the events in these books. While perhaps (if I read things now, and people really do like it) BS will take the credit...

However, still not sure I will read the book from day one. I first wanna wait and see what will be said about the predictability of the series and if there are things that annoy people.

[GonzoTheGreat]

However, still not sure I will read the book from day one. I first wanna wait and see what will be said about the predictability of the series and if there are things that annoy people.You mean, apart from Egwene, I assume? :p

[Frenzy]

i'm glad theoryland got a shout-out. But we haven't waited for the book to come out to start theorizing. ;)

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

A nice nod from Jason in his comments:

By the time you get to Mat’s adventures to a certain location (I’m not saying A THING about where that might be!!!), the theory forums and theoryland.com will be bursting at the seams.

[Terez]

it was Egwene who stole the show for me. To describe what she goes through, what’s revealed to her, and what she chooses to do in the end, would be far too spoilerish to get into, but suffice to say that it was dynamic and highly enjoyable.
Woo, the Black Ajah! :D

And finally, as Harriet told us at JordanCon, I can confirm that there are not one, but TWO climaxes at the end of this book. Big ones. Both are events we’ve been waiting for for a long time.
The Tower of Ghenjei, and what? Egwene uniting the Tower seems like a decent bet.

[Mort]

Can't access the link... complaing about a database connection....

So what, Jason has been able to read the book before it's released? That's so unfair.

[Terez]

Can't access the link... complaing about a database connection....
Here you go:

I have read The Gathering Storm
Posted by Jason on July 30th, 2009 in the A Memory of Light, Brandon Sanderson category

It would be an understatement to say that a lot has happened since Knife of Dreams. It’s been nearly four years since the release of what Robert Jordan believed was going to be his penultimate novel in The Wheel of Time series, and nearly two years since he passed away. Two very long years. But the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. The story is not yet done, and there is more to be told. Much of Robert Jordan’s life was tied to these books, and it was important to him, I believe, to see them done.

I’m not going to recap the news that has led to the publication of this novel. Most likely you already know the story. But in case you haven’t, check out our Gathering Storm info page, which has a summary of how this book was written, why it’s not the last in the series, and why it’s not titled A Memory of Light. Once you’re educated on all that, come on back here and we’ll talk about what happens next.

Over the years I’ve seen, as many of you have, a huge amount of hype surrounding the release of new WoT novels. Nothing in all these years has come close to the attention that the newest novel, The Gathering Storm, is going to receive. Like the title suggests, there is already a restless calm in the air as fans hold their breaths, waiting. Fans who have not read the books in years are now re-emerging to see how things will play out. Long time, die-hard fans sit and debate over the news articles that come and go. Despite remarkable efforts by RJ’s family to keep fans informed throughout the entire writing process, the question still remains: will this new novel be a worthy installment to the series? Is Brandon Sanderson, the young author who was tapped to finish it, up to par? Will this book feel like a Robert Jordan novel?

I have these answers.

I have read The Gathering Storm. And I will share.

But first things first.

Before you read my review, I need to give you full disclosure. It’s important to remember my point of view. I’m running a large fan site for a book series that is very near and dear to my heart. Over the years I came to know Robert Jordan, and am proud to have had him call me friend. I am close to Harriet, his widow, as well as to other members of his family and staff. I consider Brandon Sanderson to be my friend (as long as he lets me win a few MAGIC: The Gathering games anyway). I am affiliated with Tor Books (Robert Jordan’s U.S. publisher) via personal relationships, small business deals, and as of recently, their website, Tor.com, for which I occasionally blog. That said, I have not ever accepted money or other payment from them to promote, endorse, or write nice things about their Wheel of Time products.

So, with all that in mind, I tell you truthfully: My review below is for you, the reader who wants the truth, and not the hype. I am not here to sell you the book. I am here to tell you, as one fan to another, what you can expect from this new installment in the WoT series. While the facts of my disclosure above will never make me completely neutral, I promise you that my primary responsibility and obligation remains, as always, to give it to you straight. Like you, I am a fan first and foremost.

Okay? Are we good? All set? Then here we go.

The Gathering Storm is, in my opinion, quite easily one of the most intense and exciting books in the entire Wheel of Time series. Yes, you read that right. I avoided writing this review right after I finished reading. Instead, I purposely waited some time to let the initial rush and enjoyment wear off. It certainly has cooled a great deal, but I can still say with grounded and sober confidence that the book is outstanding. I would rank it up there in the top 4 in the series along with The Shadow Rising, The Fires of Heaven, and The Great Hunt. Pacing-wise, I would agree with Brandon Sanderson’s statement that it’s similar to books 4-6 in the series.

(Warning! Minor spoilers ahead. Skip down a bit if you don’t want to read them)

————-
Start of Spoilers
————-

The story brings focus back to the characters that need it, most notably Rand. Last we had seen the poor guy, he had built up a thick stone wall against his emotions, had his hand blown off, and was nearly blinded by one of the Forsaken. On his blog, Robert Jordan described Rand and his situation like this:

The world and the forces of the Light are in bad shape. At this point, boys and girls, the Shadow is winning. There are glimmers of hope, but only glimmers, and they MUST pay off for the Light to win. All the Shadow needs for victory is for matters to keep on as they have been going thus far and one or two of those glimmers to fade or be extinguished. The forces of the Light are on the ropes, and they don’t even know everything the Dark One has up his sleeve.

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he’s wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He’s still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he’s ready to unveil his surprises. You didn’t think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn’t ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That’s your only chance.

If you thought Rand was hard before, you haven’t seen anything yet. As I read this new book, my heart just went out to him. I was completely engaged as I witnessed him go deeper and deeper into depression and insanity. We’ve all known that Rand has been going the wrong way emotionally for a long time. But in this new novel, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson took him to a place I never thought he would go. There is a scene towards the middle of the book that was so dramatic and intense, that I … I don’t even know to say it. As a long time fan of the novels, it rocked me to read it. I had to set the book down and let it soak in. Remember the intensity of Dumai’s Wells at the end of Lord of Chaos? This is like that, minus the armies. I am certain that in the years ahead, we’ll run polls on DM for the “Best Scenes in the Series”, and this will be one of the popular choices. Trust me. You’ll know it when you read it.

It’s not just about one exciting scene though. Every single chapter is well written, and most of them are totally engaging. (Though to be fair, the chapters I’m thinking of which weren’t usually featured Gawyn. And I was more annoyed with him than anything else. I suppose you could argue that I was engaged in wanting to smack that character. But then again… there was that one chapter where he… well, did some cool sword stuff. That was certainly engaging). The point is that this isn’t a book where you slug through pages for a dozen chapters, read an exciting part, and then have to dig through another ten. This is far more evened out, with carefully crafted arcs that begin and end within the confines of this single volume. There are dozens of intense or exciting scenes scattered throughout. By the end of the prologue, fans will be chattering away. By the time you get to Mat’s adventures to a certain location (I’m not saying A THING about where that might be!!!), the theory forums and theoryland.com will be bursting at the seams.

Whereas I loved every chapter devoted to Rand (easily half of the book, if not more), it was Egwene who stole the show for me. To describe what she goes through, what’s revealed to her, and what she chooses to do in the end, would be far too spoilerish to get into, but suffice to say that it was dynamic and highly enjoyable. I confess that I had a lot of fun going through all the online theories related to her and the White Tower, reading them and being able to separate the ones that turned out to be accurate from the ones that weren’t. There weren’t very many wholly accurate ones. In fact, none.

Most of the main characters are present in this novel and have at least one or two chapters from their point of view. At least one is completely absent, but I’ll let you debate who it is. Just like I’ll let you try and interpret who the “main characters” are.

Oh, and regarding Asmodean….

…

RAFO.

(Heh. I’ve always wanted to do that.)

And finally, as Harriet told us at JordanCon, I can confirm that there are not one, but TWO climaxes at the end of this book. Big ones. Both are events we’ve been waiting for for a long time.

————-
End of Spoilers
————-

So now the other burning question: does this feel like a Robert Jordan novel? Does it have his “voice”? Well, truthfully, I thought the prose stayed very true to previous novels. But ultimately you’re going to be the judge on that. Brandon Sanderson has gone on record several times saying that he is not trying to mimic Robert Jordan’s voice. That doing so would just be parody. What he set out to do, and what I think he accomplished, was to tap into that font of story and events in the universe that previously had been experienced and documented by Robert Jordan. Rather than trying to make himself and his style like RJ, it seems like Brandon put himself into the heart of the saga and allowed himself to be its vessel and storyteller. The result is that this book is clearly and undeniably a novel which belongs in the WoT series. There were only a few times where I suspected the scene I was reading was entirely from Brandon’s imagination. We may never learn which specific sequences he had to invent entirely, but in the end, you probably won’t notice or even care. It’s pretty seamless in that regard. If you have read Brandon’s other novels, you’ll probably pick out pieces of text that phrase things in a way that “sound” more like his writing. Some character names sound like they might be from the Mistborn world rather than Randland. And some characters, for me, were not exactly as I pictured them. The strange thing about that though, was that another person closely tied to the project said that they thought a certain character “was off” and I thought that character was perfectly represented. On the other hand, characters I felt were different seemed spot on to that person. So no matter what I say about it, you are going to bring your own experience and vision of each character with you, and whether or not you agree with their interpretation in Gathering Storm is up in the air.

The most obvious fact in all of this is that Brandon put his heart into this book. Even though it’s a thick tome, none of it feels padded or rushed. Before he was the writer tasked with finishing this series, he was a fan like you and me. He clearly knows what fans like and dislike, and has crafted a novel that primarily follows in the footsteps of its predecessor while also delivering in a way that he knows will go over well with the crowds. (And to be fair, a lot of that insight was probably shared by Robert Jordan as well. Knife of Dreams was a great book that had a lot of steam behind it.)

I am saddened by the thought that this part of the series will inevitably play out differently than if Robert Jordan were still with us. It’s a loss that fans will always feel and wonder about; maybe it could loosely be described as a “wound that cannot heal.” I suspect that Brandon himself feels that more keenly than most. However, after literally just a few chapters, I was reassured. Guided by a strong plot outline, familiar characters, and a knowledge of the franchise that was honed to a razor sharp edge by lots of research, it became quickly apparent to me (or “intuitively obvious to the most casual observer”) that Brandon was the best person in the world to take this gig, and that he did as fine as a job as was even possible. For that, I am his biggest fan…. until November 3rd at least, at which point you will be.

In the end though, I suspect that all thought of voice and different styles will fade away as you follow that familiar opening wind in chapter one. You’ll reunite with these characters we’ve been following and once again become completely immersed in the struggles and adventures of this great saga. There’s no doubt that The Gathering Storm deserves an equal place on your top shelf next to the previous eleven volumes. Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson have crafted a remarkable novel fraught with dark, foreboding themes that will remind you why you first fell in love with the series to begin with. Even though we know it’s Brandon who pulled the actual words together, this is undeniably Robert Jordan’s work, and perhaps one of his best.

- Jason Denzel (jason@dragonmount.com)

So what, Jason has been able to read the book before it's released? That's so unfair.
He always gets to read them first. :mad:

[Terez]

Also, my guess is that the Rand moment will be a Lews Therin thing. That's the crux of his mental issues, after all. Also, we know that Rand's first stop is Arad Doman, and we know that Graendal is in Arad Doman. We also know that Aran'gar initiated an alliance between herself and Graendal, and that she was caught out in the rebel camp and had to flee with Delana. Arad Doman is top of the 'likely places she went' list.

So, I've been thinking that Aran'gar being a man in a woman's body will tie into Rand's woman-killing complex for a long time now. It always seemed like a sort of random detail, but as the books went on, I started to suspect it was not. The woman-killing complex is pretty inseparable from the Lews Therin complex, definitely the cracks in Rand's mind stem from this. So I wouldn't be surprised if Rand's 'moment' has something to do with this.

[Matoyak]

My bet? Rand kills one of his lovers. Hope not, (but if it has to be one...let it be the annoying one...) but that's for some reason instantly what I thought of. And then all the LTT and cannot hurt a woman stuff...hmmmm....ah well ~shrug~ I'll just have to RAFO, huh?

[4Alethinos]

I am more with Terez on this, Matoyak. I think that the memories that LTT brought with him would make such an act, even in insanity, virtually impossible.

OTOH, if we discover that you are correct and we ever meet, I will definitely buy you a beer. :)

"Alas, poor Matoyak, I knew him hardly at all." hehe

[Matoyak]

Lol, I hadn't read Terez's posts, or much of this thread when I posted that. (However, I happen to agree in thinking that that will never happen. My "prediction" is actually more of a joke there :D )

However, I do not drink, and will not ever drink, so...how about a Mountain Dew instead? (It also so happens that I am not quite 21 yet, heheh. I have 3 more years before that milestone :D ) :P

[tworiverswoman]

the theory forums and theoryland.com it just tickled the heck out of me that we got a SEPARATE nod -- not to mention it is actually an active link in the Dragonmount blog - though you can't see that here in the copy/paste.

Makes me feel ... "special!" :D

WE IS TEH AWESOME!

[Matoyak]

WE IS TEH AWESOME!
Yes. :D

[Terez]

My bet? Rand kills one of his lovers. Hope not, (but if it has to be one...let it be the annoying one...) but that's for some reason instantly what I thought of. And then all the LTT and cannot hurt a woman stuff...hmmmm....ah well ~shrug~ I'll just have to RAFO, huh?
The 'three in a boat' Foretelling, and the Wise Ones' dream, and Min's funeral bier viewing all speak against it. Rand will die before they do.

[Frenzy]

yay Black Ajah! i have to admit Honey in the Tea was one of my favorite chapters in KoD. i'm ready to see the Tower fall apart like an overripe melon.

[Sodas]

I'm not surprised. Theoryland is the place.

Now, if only Tam could get in with BS more and make his own reviews. I trust Tam way more than the DM reviews. Remember, DM had reviews singing PoD as the best thing ever.

[WinespringBrother]

Now, if only Tam could get in with BS more and make his own reviews. I trust Tam way more than the DM reviews. Remember, DM had reviews singing PoD as the best thing ever.

Tam's probably rereading his review copy right now... taps foot waiting for another review

[Matoyak]

The 'three in a boat' Foretelling, and the Wise Ones' dream, and Min's funeral bier viewing all speak against it. Rand will die before they do.
Once again, I know...that was more of a joke than anything else...:rolleyes: Well not really a joke, but an off-the-cuff response.

[ShadowbaneX]

I find it amusing that we're theorizing solely based on a review of the book.

[Neilbert]

We've theorized off less.

E: Dumb question.

yay Black Ajah! i have to admit Honey in the Tea was one of my favorite chapters in KoD. i'm ready to see the Tower fall apart like an overripe melon.

The Seanchan could eat it, and then stumble around like drunken monkeys. There's a metaphor in this...

[GonzoTheGreat]

‘The unstained tower breaks and bends knee to the forgotten sign’.

Finally this prophecy will come to pass.

[Bayle]

It sounds to me like Brand-land will be close enough to Rand-land for government work. That makes me very happy, can't WAIT to read this.

[Mort]

it just tickled the heck out of me that we got a SEPARATE nod -- not to mention it is actually an active link in the Dragonmount blog - though you can't see that here in the copy/paste.

Makes me feel ... "special!" :D

WE IS TEH AWESOME!

It also speaks volumes of how insecure and/or underdog we feel since we get so giddy about being mentioned ;)

[Sodas]

Or how insecure Jason is in the quality of posts on his forums.

[greatwolf]

Jason from DM put up a review for TGS.

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=585


...However, still not sure I will read the book from day one. I first wanna wait and see what will be said about the predictability of the series and if there are things that annoy people.

Maybe we have a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe. Jason like the rest of us, has been starved for FOUR years and will probably consider anything..:). Does anyone have any idea where Jason might have left that copy?:)

I might be wrong, but I didn't hear the sounds of battle in all that. I guess the whole book covers just a few days of action since it stops before TG. But it is better to wait. I'll probably buy if the reviews are good.

[Toss the dice]

Overall the review sounds very good. Although, half-jokingly, I'm not sure how much I trust this fellow. For one, he seems to think the part with Egwene is the masterpiece of the entire book. While I may be biased, I don't care WHAT Egwene does, the simple fact that she is Egwene puts it below ANYTHING with Mat, Rand, or most any other characters by default. Maybe he means she falls off a cliff and bites it. There would be great potential in that I'll admit.

The second reason is someone mentioning his review of PoD and that it was the best book so far or at least one of the best books? If that is true, I'm afraid I will have to wait for other people to review it. PoD, at least to me, is hands-down the worst book in the WoT.

As of now, just waiting for more reviews I guess.

[Neilbert]

I will agree that Egwene is by default below Mat, Perrin, and Rand, but I have to admit that her latest arc inside the White Tower is interesting at least. Not the yawnfest that was Salidar, or the annoying twitfest that preceded it.

[GonzoTheGreat]

On the other hand, Egwene herself is still the annoying twit she's always been. All that has changed is that she now has less responsibility for her inaction.

[Neilbert]

Yeah, but for now she is annoying people who are as unlikable as herself, so it kind of works.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yeah, it seems as though RJ actually listened to me. A couple of books ago, I said something like:
"Egwene wants to learn all. Mesaana wants to teach (them) all. Let's make both happy."

[greatwolf]

Why the Egwene bashing? she isn't my favourite character, but most of the characters exhibit flaws. Some flaws are just natural. Others are idiotic.

Like Rand not debriefing his people after Shadar Logoth. He's never bothered to learn dreamwalking from the wise ones. (he has to ask, if the WOs offered, he'd suspect something). He didn't try negotiating with the seanchan until he killed Morr in the battle in altara. And Egwene told him of hundreds of AS ready to support him and he says there are only fifty!

I hope we see LTT soon. Rand is just a boy. The weight isn't for him.

[Terez]

You think Lews Therin can handle it any better, with his guilt complex? hehe...Rand does need Lews Therin's memories, though, and if he continues to suppress them he'll be in bad shape.

Also, the Egwene-bashing is just pure misogyny. Proven by the fact that only guys hate her.

[GonzoTheGreat]

He has asked the WOs questions about dreamwalking, and they have made clear to him that they don't won't to talk about it with a man.
The Seanchan haven't shown much inclination towards negotiation at all. They consider Rand (and all other humans) to be subjects of the Crystal Throne who have to be brought to heel.
Egwene did tell him there are hundreds of AS ready to support him, and I don't think he has those fifty, yet. There is definitely no more sign that the average follower of Egwene is supporting Rand than there is for the followers of Elaida.

The problem with Egwene is very simple: she is AS, and has been right from the start, even when she didn't know it.
AS do not support the Dragon Reborn, they expect him to support them. And when he isn't needed, he can bloody well wait until he is called. Some few have been starting to figure out that's not the way to deal with the situation. Two (Verin and Cadsuane) seem to have seen this from the start, though I'm not entirely sure about Cadsuane.

But if you think that Egwene's AS actually do support Rand, then you will have to explain how. And, as an aside, I would be curious to know how much you would like it if people supported you in that way.

[Terez]

Egwene's Aes Sedai support Rand because Egwene supports him, and because of who he is. And of course he's not happy with people supporting him 'in that way' - that's what the whole series has been about so far. His supporters only support him because they have no choice, and whether they are cowed by his strength or by the prophecies makes little difference, except when it comes to the Aiel and a few in his inner circle that he trusts.

And Rand already has his fifty or so - Logain's girls and those bonded to Cadsuane's group (though the latter counted against the former in the negotiations that Rand conducted in his head with Egwene). I'm sure that the rebels will have gotten their 47 by the time the book starts. It was 47 right?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Egwene's Aes Sedai support Rand because Egwene supports him, and because of who he is. And of course he's not happy with people supporting him 'in that way' - that's what the whole series has been about so far.What way is "that way"?

Weiramon supports him because he has to. That means that Weiramon actually goes to war when Rand needs him to, and is actually useful when Rand manages to find something that Weiramon is willing and capable of doing.
Taim supports him because he has to. That means that Taim is actually teaching at the BT, even if he uses his spare time to build a personal army for himself.

But I don't think that it is fair to say that Elaida supports Rand, even though she does acknowledge him as the DR.
And the same goes for Romanda, who follows Egwene.
Or Lelaine, for that matter.
And ...

The only AS who actually support Rand are those that ignore both Elaida and Egwene. (And Elayne and Nynaeve, but they are hardly proper AS.)

[Toss the dice]

Egwene's Aes Sedai support Rand because Egwene supports him, and because of who he is. And of course he's not happy with people supporting him 'in that way' - that's what the whole series has been about so far. His supporters only support him because they have no choice, and whether they are cowed by his strength or by the prophecies makes little difference, except when it comes to the Aiel and a few in his inner circle that he trusts.

And Rand already has his fifty or so - Logain's girls and those bonded to Cadsuane's group (though the latter counted against the former in the negotiations that Rand conducted in his head with Egwene). I'm sure that the rebels will have gotten their 47 by the time the book starts. It was 47 right?

Others have hit the nail on the head already, but I'll add a bit I suppose. First off, Egwene "supports" Rand in that she doesn't want to destroy him and one gets the impression that she actually may know how to handle him. But in terms of ACTUAL support in any way, shape or form...she has done nothing. Why? Because the only thing she cares about is AS and the White Tower. She could give a damn if the world is overcome by the Shadow, or as good as. At the very best, she is completely blinded by her AS "things." To say she can't see ANY picture, let alone the big picture is an understatement and a half. In short, she's stupid, selfish, and her priorities are nothing short of insane.

As for the supporters supporting Rand because they have no choice: like someone else said, at least they actually support him. Even though Weiramon is 9 kinds of fool, he supports Rand. Relative to the AS business, I could care less what Weiramon's reasons for supporting Rand are or even if he has any underhanded motives involved, he's supportive.

As for the Aes Sedai that DO support Rand, Cadsuane's small group are the only ones that joined even halfway "legitimately." Coming in 2nd place would be the Salidar group that were literally forced onto their knees and made to swear oaths of fealty with dozens of black coats surrounding them.

From here it gets even worse. The last groups either were bonded unwillingly by Asha'man after their failed attempt to DESTROY the Asha'man or were the ones that captured Rand himself. After which they stuffed him in a chest, beat him daily, beat his woman, and finally swore oaths of fealty to him after having Compulsion of all things used on them. And Egwene is responsible for exactly ZERO of any of the above AS that are supporters of Rand. If we are talking support, Taim beats Egwene by a landslide, about one thousand to nothing. And he is a Darkfriend who is building himself a personal army who plans to do god knows what to Rand. At any rate, it isn't pleasant.

As for your claim that we are misogynists because we very much dislike Egwene, you have got to be joking. I can only speak for myself, but I love women and like quite a few women in the WoT, some of them are among my favorite characters. However, RJ did an excellent job in ensuring that Aes Sedai, with a few exceptions, are not very likable, at least to some people. And Egwene runs away with the cake. I also happen to very much dislike Gawyn (he is blind with hate, not to mention stupidity) and also Perrin of all people because he is very annoying. Last I checked I had nothing against men.

I have a couple longer posts in another thread on Egwene where I go into a little more detail why I despise her due to what I mentioned near the top of this post, I'm assuming there's a decent chance you might have already read them.

Edit: I do agree with Neilbert about Egwene's latest "scene" being way more readable than the last couple before that. Putting that scene with what the review person said, it seems almost a guarantee Egwene's part won't be a snoozefest, which is very good.

Also, there is a difference between characters you like or dislike because of their personality and what they've done or haven't done; characters you like or dislike whether they are interesting or not, and characters that are in general fun to read about or not. For me, Egwene happens to fit the dislike category of all of them but the interesting one. At least she does have an interesting character for the most part. In a way, she is an excellent indirect antagonist of the story.

[greatwolf]

You just don't want to admit that Rand's situation with the AS is largely his fault. He was arrogant enough to get himself kidnapped after AS warning to be careful. He has never tried to see the WT as partners, just another obstacle. He blames AS for his kidnapping but never said thank you to any of those guys who died for him at sahdar Logoth. Kumira does not take others from him, but she died protecting him.

Rand has a lot to answer for.

And, as an aside, I would be curious to know how much you would like it if people supported you in that way.
BTW, if someone dumped you to go after 3 other girls (or guys since you're male) would you even do anything for him. Egwene has been pretty magnaimous.

[Toss the dice]

You just don't want to admit that Rand's situation with the AS is largely his fault. He was arrogant enough to get himself kidnapped after AS warning to be careful. He has never tried to see the WT as partners, just another obstacle. He blames AS for his kidnapping but never said thank you to any of those guys who died for him at sahdar Logoth. Kumira does not take others from him, but she died protecting him.

Rand has a lot to answer for.

BTW, if someone dumped you to go after 3 other girls (or guys since you're male) would you even do anything for him. Egwene has been pretty magnaimous.

Arrogant enough to get himself kidnapped? I don't care if he murdered half the delegation sent to him, he's the DR. AS have been either wanting him stilled, dead, a prisoner in the WT until needed, or trying to manipulate and control him since they knew of his existence. They are lucky he hasn't been flinging them out of windows. It's not as if they're arrogant right? Ha.

He sees the WT as another obstacle because *drumroll* holy crap, it is! Partners? Are you mad? I'm sure he would love them as partners, but regarding who they are, what they've done, and everything else...that's laughable. The blame is solely on AS.

Yes, he blames AS for his kidnapping. They kidnapped him.

I will admit it is never mentioned in the books of Rand saying thank you to those that died in Shadar Logoth. Maybe as the Last Battle draws closer, he may be able to get in touch with a medium and locate the ghosts of those that died, finally thanking them. Now if you're talking about BEFORE they died, that's true, he didn't. Reading that part however, I wouldn't have and didn't expect him to say thank you anyway. Why should he thank them? If I was Rand, the only person I would have wanted to say thanks to would be Nynaeve, and he probably did out of the text in the book. He might have even said thanks to everyone who was at Shadar Logoth out of text.

Everyone's just lucky Rand hasn't said the hell with you all and killed himself long since. If not for his friends, his women, his stubbornness, his sense of duty, and the way he was raised, I'm sure he would have. Most people would have.

As for your dumping section, no I wouldn't do anything for her if she dumped me for 3 other men. But first off, Egwene dumped Rand so she could bed her Aes Sedai-ness and the White Tower. At any rate, she dumped HIM first. It was a little more complicated than that, but you are clearly wrong saying that he dumped her to be with 3 other women. Now. Let's suppose he did dump her for 3 other women. By what you said, you would completely neglect the world because of the dumping, even though he is the Dragon Reborn and the only chance the world has to not be swallowed by the Shadow. You do realize how that sounds right? Then again, it fits perfect with every other retarded thing you've said in this post. It's almost as if you're just playing around, because you are well beyond just grasping at straws dude.

I want you to come up with ONE reason Rand's situation with the AS is his fault. To say it is largely his fault is ridiculous, but I will go beyond that. Give me one reason where he threw a punch so to speak, which impacted negatively on their relationship. The punch you name has to be undeserved however. It can't be in response to one of the punches AS threw first and it can't be something any decent, reasonable person would do if they were in Rand's place.

[Terez]

Others have hit the nail on the head already, but I'll add a bit I suppose. First off, Egwene "supports" Rand in that she doesn't want to destroy him and one gets the impression that she actually may know how to handle him. But in terms of ACTUAL support in any way, shape or form...she has done nothing. Why? Because the only thing she cares about is AS and the White Tower. She could give a damn if the world is overcome by the Shadow, or as good as.
That's enough to convince me that the rest of your post is worthless. Only an idiot would believe that. Yeah, she's concerned with her job as Amyrlin because it's important - it's very nearly as important as what Rand is doing. She knows that it is important, and why, and her main concern is uniting the Tower before the Last Battle so that she can lead the Aes Sedai to support Rand.

[hippie-joe]

i personally never disliked egg even though parts she was in, for the most part, were rather boring.

i think she will make a good amrylin

[Toss the dice]

That's enough to convince me that the rest of your post is worthless. Only an idiot would believe that. Yeah, she's concerned with her job as Amyrlin because it's important - it's very nearly as important as what Rand is doing. She knows that it is important, and why, and her main concern is uniting the Tower before the Last Battle so that she can lead the Aes Sedai to support Rand.

The "or as good as" is the key part there Terez. If she cares so much about the fate of the world what is she doing about it? Uniting the WT? It's not as if the WT united magically wins the Last Battle and beats the Shadow. Rand and the Last Battle are all that matter and time is priceless in terms of preparation. Instead of wasting time manipulating, scheming, and otherwise dithering, it would have been much better to try for a truce with the Tower AS as opposed to uniting it. If Rand and the Light fails, the Tower is gone with the rest of the world. If the Tower is united, in the grand scheme of things it means next to nothing alongside Rand, especially as opposed to a broken Tower. Let the petty squabbles (in comparison to what's important) of uniting the Tower wait until AFTER it's known that the world isn't doomed. Little more efficient that way, doncha think?

Her job as Amyrlin, the WT, and all the stuff she's been doing is a drop in the bucket compared to supporting Rand and Rand himself. Her main concern is uniting the Tower before the LB, but time is running down to the wire. Except, these are books and you (like me) assume and almost "know" that Egwene will unite the Tower in the last proverbial minute and the AS will charge out to do battle in the LB, and the world will be saved in the end. If this was real life instead of a book, you would change your tune. It would be all but guaranteed that Egwene would still be trying to unite the Tower by the time the Last Battle came. I went through all of this stuff in that other thread.

The majority of the WoT has had three main factions. The Light (the good guys). The Shadow (the bad guys). And Aes Sedai (the good guys, but also the main obstacle) A lot of stories are like this, whether they are in books, movies, whatever. The "obstacle" that the protagonist has to hurdle over, "defeat", or in general "battle" alongside the real bad guys usually makes for an interesting storyline and draws the story out, the WoT included. I'm definately not bashing any Aes Sedai or even Egwene when it comes to simply reading the books themselves, because they are excellent for it. Another obstacle to this particular story would be his mental state and saneness (or lack of).

[Enigma]

In Egwene's defence she believes with some justification that she can't do much for Rand or the world until she secures control of a united White Tower and is therefor consentrating her efforts there.

If she was to do what some have suggested and head off to help Rand all she would be doing is adding another channeler of above average strength to his retinue.

At the moment one more channeler wont make much of a difference for Rand. When a mission comes up that can do some good and is within her "sphere of influende" such as the boul of winds she send AS off to do what they can.

Possibly one of the reasons Egwene is disliked is that she is the only main character who is openly ambitious. Rand never wanted world power, Mat just wants to have a good time and Perrin wants to retire to his home village and live with his wife. Nynaeve just wants to be able to heal and even Elayne sees her role as queen more as duty that a power trip. On the other hand Egwene does not cope well taking orders from anyone else. She wants to be No 1 and seeing as Rand is the one suppost to save the world there is bound to be friction between them.

[Toss the dice]

Overall, I very much agree with you Enigma.

The only thing I disagree on is if she went to help Rand. I agree that if she went to help Rand herself, she would only be adding only one more channeler to his retinue. My main thing with Egwene isn't so much the ambition, power, or anything like that as how she tries to help Rand.

If I was her, I would be using all effort and resources at my disposal in getting as many Sisters as possible to openly and healthily support Rand. So for instance, working on getting the Salidar AS to openly support Rand. Also (since time is a huge deal), negotiating a truce with the Tower AS until the LB is over and done with. If the Tower AS aren't up to supporting Rand, what can you do. Just get as many to support him as possible.

Instead, she focuses all effort and resources at her disposal to unite the WT, which has nothing to do with Rand directly at all.

I admit it is some consolation to her that she believes a united Tower is somehow important enough to focus on in regards to the LB, to completely ignore Rand. Except at the same time, they don't exactly have 20 years to get ready for the LB. One would have to assume that any halfway-rational person in Egwene's shoes in a real world would simply do something along the lines of what I've been saying, and if the Tower AS wanted no part of it, that person would cut their losses and figuratively march the entire bloody town of Salidar to Rand if they weren't there already. Meanwhile, you're still trying to smooth things over with the Tower AS, sending in spies, making speeches, meeting important people, sending people by way of Traveling, the whole works to get as many AS as possible to support Rand and hopefully all your efforts can contribute to the world being saved.

If the world isn't saved at least you gave it your best shot. Your biggest worry wasn't learning how to embrace pain when you're getting punished multiple times daily in the Tower as a prisoner, as one more baby step in the grand plan of uniting the Tower. Sure, I'm exaggerating here, but I hope you see where I'm coming from.

[Terez]

Possibly one of the reasons Egwene is disliked is that she is the only main character who is openly ambitious. Rand never wanted world power, Mat just wants to have a good time and Perrin wants to retire to his home village and live with his wife. Nynaeve just wants to be able to heal and even Elayne sees her role as queen more as duty that a power trip. On the other hand Egwene does not cope well taking orders from anyone else. She wants to be No 1 and seeing as Rand is the one suppost to save the world there is bound to be friction between them.
I don't think it's even fair to say that Egwene is openly ambitious. She wanted to be Aes Sedai when she learned how to channel, but that's normal enough. She didn't want to be Amyrlin:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 35 - In the Hall of the Sitters

"You can take the Three Oaths as soon as we are back in the Tower," Sheriam told her. "We considered having you speak them anyway, but without the Oath Rod, it might be taken for a sham. Best to wait."

Egwene almost sat down again before catching herself. Maybe the Wise Ones had been right; maybe traveling through Tel’aran’rhiod in the flesh had done something to her mind. "This is madness," she protested. "I can’t be Amyrlin. I’m... I’m... " Objections piled up on her tongue in a tangle that let nothing out. She was too young; Siuan herself had been the youngest Amyrlin ever, and she was thirty when raised. She had barely begun her training, no matter what she knew about the World of Dreams; Amyrlins were knowledgeable and experienced. And wise; they were certainly supposed to be wise. All she felt was confounded and muddled. Most women spent ten years as a novice and ten as Accepted. True, some moved faster, even much faster. Siuan had. But she herself had been a novice less than a year, and Accepted an even shorter time. "It’s impossible!" was the best she could manage finally.

Morvrin’s snort reminded her of Sorilea. "Settle yourself down, child, or I’ll see to it myself. This is no time for you to grow fluttery, or start fainting on us."

"But I wouldn’t know what to do! Not the first thing!" Egwene drew a deep breath. It did not really calm her racing heart, but it helped. A little. Aiel heart. Whatever they did, she would not let them bully her. Eyeing Morvrin’s bluff, hard face, she added, She can skin me, but she can’t bully me. "This is ridiculous is what it is. I won’t paint myself for a fool in front of everybody, and that is what I’d be doing. If this is why the Hall summoned me, I’ll tell them no."

"I fear that is not an option," Anaiya sighed, smoothing her robe, a surprisingly frilly thing in rose silk, with delicate ivory lace bordering every edge. "You cannot refuse a summons to become Amyrlin any more than you could a summons for trial. The words of the summons are even the same." That was heartening; oh, yes, it was.
"The choice is the Hall’s now." Myrelle sounded a touch sad, which did nothing for Egwene’s spirits.
She simply accepted the job that was forced on her, accepted it as her responsibility, and ran with it, quite admirably, I think. Sheriam's circle meant for her to be a puppet, and she overcame that, not because she was ambitious, but because she's not a lapdog, and she knows that what Sheriam's circle wants is not necessarily what is best for the Tower, or for Rand.

An effort to get Aes Sedai to openly support Rand would only be a hindrance to the reunification of the Tower with Egwene as Amyrlin, which is what Rand really needs - a united, strong Tower at his back, rather than a faction of dissidents. The last thing Rand needs is opposing factions of Aes Sedai whose natural tendency to distrust him would certainly be exacerbated by the actions you suggest. With Egwene as Amyrlin of a reunited Tower, the Aes Sedai will be subject to Egwene - all of them - and Egwene is on his side.

[greatwolf]

If I was her, I would be using all effort and resources at my disposal in getting as many Sisters as possible to openly and healthily support Rand. So for instance, working on getting the Salidar AS to openly support Rand. Also (since time is a huge deal), negotiating a truce with the Tower AS until the LB is over and done with. If the Tower AS aren't up to supporting Rand, what can you do. Just get as many to support him as possible

Isn't that why arangar gives her a massage every night?

[Weird Harold]

I don't think it's even fair to say that Egwene is openly ambitious.

She simply accepted the job that was forced on her, accepted it as her responsibility, and ran with it, quite admirably, I think. ...

I was going to make this point. Egwene isn't ambitious, she's just determined to do the job she was given the best way she knows how. The added chapter of the Scholastic edition of the first half of tEotW, From the Two Rivers: Ravens makes a rather heavy-handed point about Egwene's determination to do the best job possible at whatever task she's given. Her drive to re-unite the Towere isn't "ambition," it's "fear of failure."

As far as whether re-uniting the Tower is important to winning T'G or not, Prophecy and Foretellings seem to indicate it is -- or at least imply that it will happen before T'G.

ACoS,Prologue - "The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell."

The BT and BA have to be dealt with before T'G to prevent as many Dreadlords as possible at T'G and Rand isn't supposed to survie T'G so meeting the Amyrlin and knowing her anger can't happen after T'G. So why can the "whole and stronger than ever" be put off until it's convenient?

[Terez]

Well, Egwene doesn't know about Elaida's Foretelling, but she has nevertheless had many signs that the Wheel works in mysterious ways. She didn't seek to be Amyrlin any more than Rand sought to be the Dragon Reborn, but once it was forced on her, and once she realized that Siuan supported her, it was easy enough to see the potential in the situation.

Egwene-haters often get riled up about Egwene's thoughts about 'handling' Rand, but the truth is, Rand's psyche is in a precarious position at the moment, and Egwene has seen a lot of evidence of it. She had been getting less and less comfortable dealing with Rand, with good reason, but she was smart enough to realize that the Aes Sedai could seriously botch things with Rand unchecked. She knows he needs her to be Amyrlin, in the same way that he needs people that he can trust to rule each nation, but even more so. 100x more so.

This is the reason she let Logain go. She couldn't justify keeping Logain when Rand had declared amnesty. She respected Rand's law, even though she was not powerful enough politically at the time to do it publicly (she had to set up his escape secretly).

[GonzoTheGreat]

That's enough to convince me that the rest of your post is worthless. Only an idiot would believe that. Yeah, she's concerned with her job as Amyrlin because it's important - it's very nearly as important as what Rand is doing. She knows that it is important, and why, and her main concern is uniting the Tower before the Last Battle so that she can lead the Aes Sedai to support Rand.And if her timing is off by just a few days, then she'll still be trying to unite the WT when TG has come and gone.

On the other hand, if she had said "we'll worry about the Tower later, we have to win the Last Battle first", then she could have gotten at least some of the Green Ajah, and probably most of it, to follow her to help Rand. Doing that, and doing it publicly, would have put Elaida in an untenable position. Elaida would have been hiding in the WT while the "real AS" were out saving the world (together with the DR, but they could write him out of the histories afterwards).

Can you prove that Egwene will succeed in uniting the WT, and getting to actually start deciding to actually support Rand, and then get Rand to actually believe them, before TG comes?
In your answer, please take into account that Egwene has been explicitly undermining Rand in the past, casting doubt on his sanity in discussions with AS. Also take into account that none of the previous AS embassies have proven very dependable or very rational, so Rand wouldn't have any reason to trust them any further than Seanchan emissaries.

But there is an even better argument. The AS knew that they would someday have to help the DR fight the DO. That's why the Green Ajah was founded in the first place. The Aiel knew that they would someday have to help the CaC fight the DO. That's why they were united around Rhuidean. When Rand appeared, the AS broke apart, quarreling over who would be allowed to control him. When Rand appeared, the Aiel needed all of three days to decide to start following him (formalising it took a bit longer, and there were a couple of dissenters too).

Look at it in terms of the real world. Suppose that Jesus actually returns, and calls upon all Christians to do something to help him bring paradise to the whole world. Would it then be reasonable if the Roman Catholics first started some infighting, with an impeachment of the current pope, and armies in the field supporting two rival new claimants to the throne? That is what Egwene is doing, all the while claiming that she's having good intentions while focused only on gaining that throne and tiara.

[Toss the dice]

If someone can give me a direct quote from the books where Egwene has a Dream, vision, or something similar (it almost would have to be a Dream), where a united WT is CRUCIAL in winning the Last Battle, I will take back everything I have said concerning Egwene trying to unite the Tower rather than helping Rand. All of it.

[greatwolf]

How else is she supposed to help Rand? Splitting the tower further? Or scattering small fragments of AS all over the place before TG? Or leaving the WT and its treasures in the hands of Elaida and DFs? Or Ignoring the BA threat?

Anything other than a united WT behind the DR for TG is a total loss for the light. It doesn't gurantee victory, but it is a MUST for victory.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Someone else has quoted this already, I think, but I'm not sure it was in this thread:
KoD, Call to a Sitting, Chapter 23

The Green’s mouth twisted in obvious distaste. “You take it correctly.” she said in a strong Taraboner accent. “My name is Merise Haindehl. and me, I will stand with no sister who wishes to contend against other sisters while the world hangs in the balance. Our enemy, it is the Shadow, not women who wear the shawl as we do.” Mutters rose in the pavilion, some angry, some, Romanda thought, shamed.That is something Egwene has rather consistently been ignoring.
She has gone to war against Elaida. She has, as far as I know, never even considered going to war against Sammael, even though she knew where he was.

Can you show me some evidence that Egwene plans to have a united Tower behind the DR at all?
All I see is that she plans to order Rand to do as she thinks is best. She has actually told the WOs that she won't lead AS to follow Rand.

[greatwolf]

That is something Egwene has rather consistently been ignoring.
She has gone to war against Elaida. She has, as far as I know, never even considered going to war against Sammael, even though she knew where he was.

Your post reads like it was Egwene that started the gathering in Salidar, Gonzo. It is purely erroneous to blame the current events on Egwene. Much of what happened is outside her control. And you know she has had dreams on that. Elaida started all this by trying to use Suian's involvement with Rand to gain the amyrlin seat.

If all AS were to come behind Rand today, there would still be Elaidas and Alviarhins too many for comfort. A sure bet for disaster.

Egwene has set about gathering all the female channelers she can. She has to do that first before she starts talking about how to fight TG. And in case you haven't heard, she rediscovered cuendillar. Which was used in making the original seals.

[Neilbert]

Also, the Egwene-bashing is just pure misogyny. Proven by the fact that only guys hate her.

That's hardly proof of anything. It could just as easily be that you like an unlikable character because you are a woman and thusly feel a need to rally to her defense.

Egwene-haters often get riled up about Egwene's thoughts about 'handling' Rand, but the truth is, Rand's psyche is in a precarious position at the moment, and Egwene has seen a lot of evidence of it. She had been getting less and less comfortable dealing with Rand, with good reason

Egwene was hell bent on being little miss snooty face Aes Sedai long before Rand went off the deep end. You would think that providing emotional support to your friend you grew up with, who you supposedly love, who has the fate of the world resting on his shoulders would be a slightly higher priority than maintaining proper Aes Sedai dignity.

"With good reason". Cadsuane slaps him in the face and he does nothing. You think he would do worse to someone he once loved? Egwene is a twit. WH is right about her fear of doing a bad job, but it blinds her to many other things and makes her very hard to like. It's only very recently that she has shown any character worth caring about.

With Egwene as Amyrlin of a reunited Tower, the Aes Sedai will be subject to Egwene - all of them - and Egwene is on his side.

If this is true she has done nothing to show it. Preserving Aes Sedai dignity and superiority is far more important to her than supporting Rand.

[Belazamon]

Also, the Egwene-bashing is just pure misogyny. Proven by the fact that only guys hate her.That's hardly proof of anything. It could just as easily be that you like an unlikable character because you are a woman and thusly feel a need to rally to her defense.Wow. Is Godwin's Law next?

[Neilbert]

Do you ever say anything worth reading?

[Frenzy]

The White Tower has been THE numero uno source of power and influence in the westlands for over three thousand years. The fact that it's full of selfish bitchy women has nothing to do with the fact that the White Tower equals power. Only an idiot discounts Tar Valon has a role to play in Tarmon Gai'don, so uniting the Aes Sedai is an important use of time.

If all it took to win Tarmon Gai'don was to haul Rand's whiny ass and his fancy sword to the center of all evil that is Shayol Ghul, i'd think we were reading the Belgariad.

[Terez]

Someone else has quoted this already, I think, but I'm not sure it was in this thread:
That is something Egwene has rather consistently been ignoring.
She has gone to war against Elaida. She has, as far as I know, never even considered going to war against Sammael, even though she knew where he was.
Rand didn't go to war against Sammael when he had the chance, instead choosing to go traipsing off in the Waste after the Aiel. How thoughtless of him...

She has actually told the WOs that she won't lead AS to follow Rand.
No, she hasn't - she's said they won't swear fealty to him. There's a difference.

If you guys really think that Egwene isn't planning to support Rand once she reunites the Tower, then you're all idiots...srsly...find a real person to hate or something...

[Toss the dice]

If you guys really think that Egwene isn't planning to support Rand once she reunites the Tower, then you're all idiots...srsly...find a real person to hate or something...

I'm unsure which of us thinks Egwene isn't planning to support Rand once she reunites the Tower. It wasn't me. Unfortunately (for Egwene), that's not the problem I have with her.

Terez, you are also welcome to find a direct quote from the books that has in it a Dream that Egwene has that says the Tower HAS to be united for the Light to win the Last Battle. Find that, and I have no problem with her trying to unite the Tower instead of helping Rand, since I do think she plans to support Rand after she reunites the Tower. (assuming she does)

[Belazamon]

Do you ever say anything worth reading?It's happened before.

Anyway, reading Jason's "review," I gotta say... the praise seems a little too effusive for me to actually be reassured by it. Now I'm one of the ones who thinks it likely will be a very good book - but this review just seemed like gushing, which doesn't particularly indicate anything of use to me.

That said, a strong focus on Rand and Egwene definitely makes me happy. I've honestly been getting a little tired of Mat and Perrin in the last several books. Though Mat, especially, has the potential to interest me again once he's in a smaller group setting once more. I just get tired of all the I'm-running-an-army perspectives, I suppose.

[Terez]

Terez, you are also welcome to find a direct quote from the books that has in it a Dream that Egwene has that says the Tower HAS to be united for the Light to win the Last Battle. Find that, and I have no problem with her trying to unite the Tower instead of helping Rand, since I do think she plans to support Rand after she reunites the Tower. (assuming she does)
Are you serious? You think she would have to have confirmation of that to know it? It's obviously important that she unite the Tower for the Last Battle - she doesn't have to have a dream to tell her that. :rolleyes: There is nothing she can do to help Rand until she accomplishes that.

While you're at it, you might as well hate Elayne for taking the throne in Andor when he needs her help! Yeah, we know that Rand directly admitted he needed her for that, but if you think the same doesn't apply to Egwene taking charge of the Tower, then you're just dumb, plain and simple.

[GonzoTheGreat]

If you guys really think that Egwene isn't planning to support Rand once she reunites the Tower, then you're all idiots...srsly...find a real person to hate or something...Then please tell me: what plans does she have to support Rand after she has brought all the AS to heel?
Not something vague like "then I'll deflate his head and teach him to pay proper respect to women in general and AS in particular", but actual plans (or even one) to support him.

All Egwene's plans are concentrated on the WT. She now and then pays some attention to other things, like Logain, but those are always just minor interruptions. And even Logain could be explained with a WT focus: he was distracting the other AS, who kept quibbling over what to do about him, and either killing him or gentling him again would have been a PR risk to the AS.

[Jokeslayer]

Then please tell me: what plans does she have to support Rand after she has brought all the AS to heel?
Not something vague like "then I'll deflate his head and teach him to pay proper respect to women in general and AS in particular", but actual plans (or even one) to support him.

All Egwene's plans are concentrated on the WT. She now and then pays some attention to other things, like Logain, but those are always just minor interruptions. And even Logain could be explained with a WT focus: he was distracting the other AS, who kept quibbling over what to do about him, and either killing him or gentling him again would have been a PR risk to the AS.

She may just be doing it one step at a time. She can't really make plans to help Rand before she knows what resources she'll have to do it with.

[GonzoTheGreat]

And she can't help Rand either if she's still gathering resources when he's dead.

But supposing that you're right: which steps are actually aimed at helping Rand instead of purely at getting control of the Tower?
So far, anything Egwene has done could have been done by Elaida too, had their situations been reversed. Up to and including letting Logain go, if that man became too much of a distraction to be borne. Elaida might have hesitated a bit longer over it, but that would have been all.
And, perhaps just as damning: almost anything that Elaida has done could have been done by Egwene as well. She might have given slightly less explicit kidnapping instructions, but on the other hand, I'm not sure how much detail Elaida had given there.

[Jokeslayer]

And she can't help Rand either if she's still gathering resources when he's dead.

So lets say you're going to be in a gunfight, you don't know quite when. You don't have enough money for a gun, but you do have enough for a knife. Is it a good idea to buy the knife and hope you don't get shot while trying to close enough to stab? No, it's better to buy the gun and be able to shoot yourself. Knife or no knife makes no difference; only the gun counts.

(Actually that metaphor makes little sense, since owning a gun makes no difference if you get shot. My point is that if Egwene believes that the Salidar part of the Tower isn't strong enough to help Rand enough to win, she is entirely justified in putting the tower together first. I honestly can't remember if there's any reason for her to think that or to think otherwise - been too long since I read the second half of the series to remember any relevant foretellings etc.)



But supposing that you're right: which steps are actually aimed at helping Rand instead of purely at getting control of the Tower?

If I'm right, getting control of the Tower is helping Rand.


So far, anything Egwene has done could have been done by Elaida too, had their situations been reversed. Up to and including letting Logain go, if that man became too much of a distraction to be borne. Elaida might have hesitated a bit longer over it, but that would have been all.
And, perhaps just as damning: almost anything that Elaida has done could have been done by Egwene as well. She might have given slightly less explicit kidnapping instructions, but on the other hand, I'm not sure how much detail Elaida had given there.

Like I said above, I haven't read the relevant books in some time, so I can't argue this point. I feel like I disagree, but don't have any evidence.

[Terez]

...my point is that if Egwene believes that the Salidar part of the Tower isn't strong enough to help Rand enough to win, she is entirely justified in putting the tower together first. I honestly can't remember if there's any reason for her to think that or to think otherwise - been too long since I read the second half of the series to remember any relevant foretellings etc.
There are a lot of good reasons to think that her little piece of the Tower isn't enough to help Rand, mainly that she's only got a third of the Aes Sedai behind her. Elaida also has a third, and another third is wisely waiting on the sidelines to see which way the wind blows. If she were to make a move to ally with Rand without concern for reuniting the Tower, then one third of the Aes Sedai would be automatically against him, and the other third - who knows? If that happened, then the institution of the Tower could easily dissolve completely, which has the potential to cause a great amount of chaos. The assistance that Rand gained would be negated by the opposition of Tar Valon and the inevitable fallout of a fractured Tower.

[GonzoTheGreat]

As far as I know, there are no real predictions/prophecies that the Tower has to be whole in order to make it sufficiently effective. All there is is lots of AS saying "the Tower must be whole".
Yet when the Tower was whole and the Amyrlin tried to actually help Rand, so many AS disapproved that they broke the Tower. And even amongst the Salidar ones, only very few agreed that Siuan actually had been correct in her approach. Most blamed Siuan for the break.
If I'm right, getting control of the Tower is helping Rand.And if I'm right, then getting control of the Tower will help her in her aim of getting control of Rand. I don't think it will help her enough, but she will try.
I feel like I disagree, but don't have any evidence.There isn't any evidence for your case, so you needn't feel bad about your failure to produce it.

[GonzoTheGreat]

If she were to make a move to ally with Rand without concern for reuniting the Tower, then one third of the Aes Sedai would be automatically against him, and the other third - who knows?And if something goes just a little bit wrong, then the whole lot may end up reunited under Elaida. How's that gonna help Rand?

Planning only for success with no thought about the possibility of failure generally is not a good idea in war.

[Terez]

And if something goes just a little bit wrong, then the whole lot may end up reunited under Elaida. How's that gonna help Rand? It won't, which is exactly why Egwene has willingly suffered so much to make sure that does not happen.

when the Tower was whole and the Amyrlin tried to actually help Rand, so many AS disapproved that they broke the Tower. And even amongst the Salidar ones, only very few agreed that Siuan actually had been correct in her approach. Most blamed Siuan for the break.
Indeed, and all of that is even more reason why Rand needs the Tower united under someone he can trust.

[Toss the dice]

I could write a very lengthy post responding to everything you've said since I posted last Terez, but I don't have the patience, most of it I've said before, and you would respond once again with your usual logic-less and obviously biased and faulty reasonings. So I suppose we can agree to disagree, although then again you DID admit to having zero evidence that Egwene found out she NEEDS the Tower to be united in order for the Light to win. I am happy with that.

By the way Terez, your logic is beyond messed up. Maybe that has to do with the fact that men in general think logically and women think with their emotions. That certainly explains some of Egwene's decisions doesn't it? Can I nickname you "Egwene?"

[GonzoTheGreat]

By the way Terez, your logic is beyond messed up. Maybe that has to do with the fact that men in general think logically and women think with their emotions.In general, that's a bit much of a generalisation. For starters, I'm not at all convinced that the majority of men ever actually think.
Just for once, I won't comment on the female half of our species.

That certainly explains some of Egwene's decisions doesn't it?I'm not sure anything but pure selfishness together with AS blinders is needed to explain Egwene's decisions.

[Terez]

I could write a very lengthy post responding to everything you've said since I posted last Terez, but I don't have the patience, most of it I've said before, and you would respond once again with your usual logic-less and obviously biased and faulty reasonings.
It's hardly biased on my part - like I said, it's been shown before that the vast majority of Egwene-haters are men (all of them at Theoryland are), so it's obvious where the bias is.

So I suppose we can agree to disagree, although then again you DID admit to having zero evidence that Egwene found out she NEEDS the Tower to be united in order for the Light to win. I am happy with that.
Dunno why, since you never even came close to establishing that this is relevant. It's obvious enough that she needs to do it without a prophecy. Unless you're an idiot, that is...

By the way Terez, your logic is beyond messed up.
Saying it over and over again doesn't make it true, you know. ;)

[Weird Harold]

So far, anything Egwene has done could have been done by Elaida too, had their situations been reversed. Up to and including letting Logain go, if that man became too much of a distraction to be borne. Elaida might have hesitated a bit longer over it, but that would have been all.

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no difference between the meglomaniac who ordered the entire Black Tower exectuted without trial or warning and the woman who honored Rand's amnesty by releasing Logain? That Elaida wouldn't have executed Logain as soon as he was Healed to prevent it from happening again?

Are you and others seriously suggesting that leaving Elaida in charge of any portion of the Aes Sedai would be irrelevant to Rand's success -- especially since she has made active, overt efforts to undermine Rand's preparations for T'G.

Whether the WT ever actively supports Rand, neutralizing the threat to Rand from a WT under Elaida's "control" is far more important to Rand's success than anything Egwene could (theoretically) do by trying to subordinate the SAS to Rand's command.

As far as I can see, Egwene's only possible course of effective support for Rand is to eliminate as much WT/AS related Chaos as possible in whatever time there is before T'G. Whether she knows via Dreams or Prophecy that the WT will be (or must be) whole and serving the Light at T'G, the best use of her abilities and position is to eliminate as much chaos where she can where she has any influence at all.

Whether she knows she will succeed or not, she has no better course of action than to try to bring a united Tower to T'G on the side of Light.

Egwene is also in the unenviable position of facing Stilling and execution if she fails to unite the Tower under her leadership.

Not knowing whether she will succed or not and not knowing how much time she has is no excuse for not trying to reunite the Tower and it doesn't take a genious to see that making the attempt is better than being Stilled and Executed.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no difference between the meglomaniac who ordered the entire Black Tower exectuted without trial or warning and the woman who honored Rand's amnesty by releasing Logain? That Elaida wouldn't have executed Logain as soon as he was Healed to prevent it from happening again?Perhaps I was hyperbolising just a bit.
Are you and others seriously suggesting that leaving Elaida in charge of any portion of the Aes Sedai would be irrelevant to Rand's success -- especially since she has made active, overt efforts to undermine Rand's preparations for T'G.Here, my answer is "yes".
Rand knows that he can simply ignore Elaida as long as she doesn't stand in his way, and that he can brush her aside if she steps out of line.
He still hasn't figured out that those two options are all that Egwene gives him.
Whether the WT ever actively supports Rand, neutralizing the threat to Rand from a WT under Elaida's "control" is far more important to Rand's success than anything Egwene could (theoretically) do by trying to subordinate the SAS to Rand's command.That threat was real as long as he sort of trusted her to behave civilised. After the kidnapping, that was over. Now, the greatest threat Elaida can offer is the kind of attack on the BT that she launched, and you know how that ended.
All that Elaida can do now is cower in the WT and wait until TG is over.
As far as I can see, Egwene's only possible course of effective support for Rand is to eliminate as much WT/AS related Chaos as possible in whatever time there is before T'G.And her embassy did that by fomenting rebellion in Andor. True, that was before they even knew she was Amyrlin, but it does show what kind of AS she has attached herself to. And, as far as I know, she has never send orders to stop that kind of action, either.
Whether she knows she will succeed or not, she has no better course of action than to try to bring a united Tower to T'G on the side of Light.She could have said "hang the Tower, I'll help him and anyone who thinks that petty politics are more important than the fight against the Shadow can stay behind".
Not knowing whether she will succed or not and not knowing how much time she has is no excuse for not trying to reunite the Tower and it doesn't take a genious to see that making the attempt is better than being Stilled and Executed.On the other hand, running that risk might be better than the alternative of letting the DO win.

On rare occasions, usually when someone else points it out, Egwene can see that there are other priorities than merely winning the local political squabble.
I think that Siuan pointed her in the right direction with Logain, and she did what was necessary there.
Elayne (and Nynaeve) pointed out that the weather had to be set right, and Egwene decided to send them to Ebou Dar. Perhaps partially because it allowed her to gain the political advantage of having the Band of the Red Hand looming in the background.

But instead of focusing on Tar Valon, Egwene could also have decided to focus the Salidar group on Tarmon Gai'don. She chose not to do so.

When Rand asks for help, Mat, Nynaeve, and Perrin all raise objections, but Egwene is the only one who actually refuses to help at all.

[Weird Harold]

She could have said "hang the Tower, I'll help him and anyone who thinks that petty politics are more important than the fight against the Shadow can stay behind".

Could she?

What was the importance of getting War on Eliada formally declared? What are the limits of Egwene's "War Powers?"

[GonzoTheGreat]

The importance of formally declaring war on Elaida was getting the AS in Salidar to actually choose sides, and making it more difficult for them to weasel out of it.
And the limits of her war powers are basically whatever she chooses to accept. Though I must admit that in this particular case, the law did allow her to seek out the danger of facing Elaida and her loyal AS in combat, so she had the right to get captured.

[Toss the dice]

Dunno why, since you never even came close to establishing that this is relevant. It's obvious enough that she needs to do it without a prophecy. Unless you're an idiot, that is...


I'm the one of us that has actually backed up what I've been saying with common sense and tons of descriptive examples and reasonings.

You on the other hand, have not. The extent of your argument on this topic is claiming that several of us men that don't like Egwene are misogynists (backed up by something a 5 yr old would say) and essentially backing up your united Tower side of the argument with "because, it's obvious idiot." Why is it obvious? Why does a united WT HAVE TO BE in order for the Light to win the LB? And I'm not even asking in the context of the situation with all of the other variables included. But you can't even give that.

If you would actually start backing up your side with valid arguments and opinions instead of trash, I would respect your opinion and this would actually be a worthy debate, regardless of whether or not I agree with you. Until that happens, what you say means nothing.

[Tree Brother]

The extent of your argument on this topic is claiming that several of us men that don't like Egwene are misogynists (backed up by something a 5 yr old would say) and essentially backing up your united Tower side of the argument with "because, it's obvious idiot." Why is it obvious? Why does a united WT HAVE TO BE in order for the Light to win the LB?

I do not know about obvious, but I believe it is reasonable. The number of channelers has been dwindling (even though there has been a nice influx recently). The split in the White Tower represents chaos -- which aids the Dark One more than the Light followers.

By joining the WT, you tipple the number of AS that would support Rand (Tower + Salidar + the ones on the fence). And a Tower that is whole would go a ways to unite others.

To some extent, the WT has been a unifying presence. They mediate, advise, etc. As long as it is split, the have little influence. Rand is going crazy. Something stable is needed to reduce the chaos.

I don't think there are a lot of quotes that will let you know exactly what is needed for the last battle. But we do have foretellings that the WT will be whole. So if you accept those, the question becomes: whole under whom? If it is going to be whole, then whole under Egwene is is preferable to Elaida.

That is my opinion.

-Edit-

If you are concerned about her motivations, it doesn't matter. The WT will be whole. Blame it on the pattern. Egwene's purpose is to unite the Tower before TG, then support Rand in the LB, not to just try to gather a few AS to support Rand.

[Neilbert]

Indeed, and all of that is even more reason why Rand needs the Tower united under someone he can trust.

He can't trust Egwene. She made that clear long before she left for Salidar.

It's hardly biased on my part - like I said, it's been shown before that the vast majority of Egwene-haters are men (all of them at Theoryland are), so it's obvious where the bias is.

Men tend to be more vocal in their dislike, and I hardly see a contingent of Egwene defenders of any gender.

[Weird Harold]

The importance of formally declaring war on Elaida was getting the AS in Salidar to actually choose sides, and making it more difficult for them to weasel out of it.

Not Quite.

Up until the declaration of War passed Egwene had almost zero real power to command any significant action. The declaration of War was necessary for her to be able actually BE Amyrlin instead of a puppet with a different puppet master on each string.

Even after the Declaration of War against Elaida, she still doesn't have absolute authority over anything she can't justify as prosecuting the War.

All of the complaints about what Egwene should have done before she obtained that Declaration of War are based on unrealistic understandings of just what Egwene could do without being deposed.

"You won’t get it," Romanda said flatly. The sneer she directed across the pavilion at Lelaine was as good as a statement of why she, at least, would not stand. "Now that little business is finished, we can go on with – "

"I don’t think we can," Egwene cut in. "Takima, what does the Law of War say about the Amyrlin Seat." Romanda was left with her mouth hanging open.

Takima’s lips writhed. The diminutive Brown looked more than ever a bird wishing to take flight. "The Law... " she began, then took a deep breath and sat up straight. "The Law of War states, ‘As one set of hands must guide a sword, so the Amyrlin Seat shall direct and prosecute the war by decree. She shall seek the advice of the Hall of the Tower, but the Hall shall carry out her decrees with all possible speed, and for the sake of unity, they shall... " She faltered, and had to visibly force herself to go on. "... they shall and must approve any decree of the Amyrlin Seat regarding prosecution of the war with the greater consensus."

A long silence stretched. Every eye seemed to be goggling. Turning abruptly, Delana vomited onto the carpets behind her bench. Kwamesa and Salita both climbed down and started toward her, but she waved them off, plucking a scarf from her sleeve to wipe her mouth. Magla and Saroiya and several others still seated looked as though they might follow her example. No others who had been chosen in Salidar, though. Romanda appeared ready to bite through a nail.

"Very clever," Lelaine said at last in clipped tones, and after a deliberate pause, added, "Mother. Will you tell us what the great wisdom of your vast experience tells you to do? About the war, I mean. I want to make myself clear."

"Let me make myself clear, too," Egwene said coldly. Leaning forward, she fixed the Blue Sitter sternly. "A certain degree of respect is required toward the Amyrlin Seat, and from now on, I will have it, daughter. This is no time for me to have to unchair you and name a penance." Lelaine’s eyes crept wider and wider with shock. Had the woman really believed everything would continue as before? Or after so long not daring to show more than the tiniest backbone, had Lelaine simply believed she had none? Egwene really did not want to unchair her; the Blues would almost certainly return the woman, and she still had to deal with the Hall on matters that could not be convincingly disguised as part of the war against Elaida.

From the corner of her eye, she saw a smile pass across Romanda’s lips at seeing Lelaine set down. Small profit if all she did was raise Romanda’s stock with the others. "That holds for everyone, Romanda," she said. "If need be, Tiana can find two birches as easily as one." Romanda’s smile vanished abruptly.

[GonzoTheGreat]

And with that declaration of war, Egwene still can't do anything whatsoever to help Rand, unless it is disguised as part of the war against Elaida.
That should tell you something about the priorities of the AS.

And once the war is won, Egwene will be back where she was. Only now the Hall will be watching her, in case she tries to pull such a trick again.

And, just for giggles: she could have declared war upon the Shadow too. That would have given her the same broad powers, but it would also have let her deal with the real emergency instead of the made up one.

[Terez]

I'm the one of us that has actually backed up what I've been saying with common sense and tons of descriptive examples and reasonings.

You on the other hand, have not.
There are good reasons for that:

1) Everyone with a brain realizes you're just rambling random hate that doesn't make any real sense.

2) I've argued Egwene before with the other haters on this thread; I get tired of their arguments and I have no interest in yours.

He can't trust Egwene. She made that clear long before she left for Salidar.
Yeah he can, and he does, or he wouldn't still think of her fondly.

Men tend to be more vocal in their dislike, and I hardly see a contingent of Egwene defenders of any gender.
There are defenders of Egwene every time this comes up, of both genders, and you know it. We even did a poll on this, remember? :) None of the women claimed to dislike her - we'll all admit she's done annoying things from time to time, but none of us are stupid enough to believe that she's ignoring important goals for personal ambition, or something like that.

[Belazamon]

There are defenders of Egwene every time this comes up, of both genders, and you know it. We even did a poll on this, remember? :) None of the women claimed to dislike her - we'll all admit she's done annoying things from time to time, but none of us are stupid enough to believe that she's ignoring important goals for personal ambition, or something like that.~ahem~

Out of curiosity, how many respondents did you get in this poll? There is, after all, a little thing called "sampling bias." There really aren't that many active posters at Theoryland, comparatively speaking.

I think it's kind of silly to try to divide "Egwene-haters" or "Egwene-lovers" along gender lines. But then, I'd feel the same about doing that for any character. I'm sure all the Perrin-haters aren't misogynist women who are jealous of his manly leadership abilities and mighty beardface.

[Terez]

haha, of course it was a small-ish poll, but I bet I could do one at Dragonmount and get pretty much the same results (I've seen similar arguments on Wotmania and Dragonmount, and also on the MySpace WoT group I hang out at). I'm not claiming to have done scientific studies on the subject, but I do know that the arguments trying to make Egwene out to be somehow less perfect than the other main characters are extremely ridiculous, and that the haters are almost always male. And I actually can't think of a single female hater at the moment, but I'll say 'almost always' just on the chance I've forgotten someone (which I doubt).

But then, I don't understand the hatred of fictional characters at all, especially characters that the author has made clear belong with the good guys. Seems like these guys are looking just a little bit hard for justification when it comes to hating Egwene - she probably reminds them all of their first love who cruelly spurned them or something. (And Egwene was pretty nice about the spurning, but I'm sure it dredges up painful memories for some people.)

Also, I don't know of any Perrin-haters.

[Neilbert]

we'll all admit she's done annoying things from time to time

Yup.

Also, I don't know of any Perrin-haters.

I know a lot of people who were bored to hell with him while Faile was kidnapped. Aside from that Perrin has been a much less annoying and far more interesting character.

But then, I don't understand the hatred of fictional characters at all, especially characters that the author has made clear belong with the good guys.

It takes more to be worth reading than to simply be on the good team.

[Weird Harold]

And with that declaration of war, Egwene still can't do anything whatsoever to help Rand, unless it is disguised as part of the war against Elaida.
That should tell you something about the priorities of the AS.

The priorities of the Aes Sedai aren't at issue, Egwene's goals and her ability to bring those goals to fruition are the issue. Up until the declaration of War, Egwene could not do anything to change Aes Sedai priorities -- or address her own priorities.

By the time Elaida is defeated and Egwene is proclaimed the true Amyrlin of a re-united Tower, she should have the prestige and political capital to do something about the "Aes Sedai priorities" you so despise. She'll also have the credibility of the actual Tower and city of Tar Valon behind her in her dealings with political leaders, which she does not have as "The Rebel Amyrlin" -- as the Andoran nobles who precipitated the declaration of war demonstrated by blocking the SAS progress overland through Andor.

Without a united Tower behind her, Egwene is just another female channeler, with better than average strength and little experience -- and it doesn't take Foretelling or Dreaming to see that.

With a unified Tower behind her, she is a Major World Power with centuries of traditon and prestige supporting her.

Egwene is playing the hand the Pattern dealt her to the best of her ability while learning the "Art Of The Possible" as it applies to Herding cats -- I mean leading Aes Sedai.

[Terez]

By the time Elaida is defeated and Egwene is proclaimed the true Amyrlin of a re-united Tower, she should have the prestige and political capital to do something about the "Aes Sedai priorities" you so despise. She'll also have the credibility of the actual Tower and city of Tar Valon behind her in her dealings with political leaders, which she does not have as "The Rebel Amyrlin" -- as the Andoran nobles who precipitated the declaration of war demonstrated by blocking the SAS progress overland through Andor.
Yup, that's how she managed to get enough votes for the declaration of war - all of the Aes Sedai who were there on the ice knew that their Hall was seen as a sham, that they weren't taken seriously. Egwene was able to use the publicity to seal her power as Amyrlin with the rebels (because deposing her after she was publicly revealed as Amyrlin would have weakened the rebels' credibility), and she was able to use the experience to make the rebel Hall face reality.

If she were to ally the rebels to Rand, also, Rand would be seen among the Aes Sedai as being responsible for the split. He's already seen as being indirectly responsible for it, but in the eyes of the 2/3 of Aes Sedai that are not with the rebels, he would be directly responsible for it if Egwene allied the rebels with him. Perhaps in the eyes of many of the rebel Aes Sedai, as well.

That's reason enough for Egwene to know that a reunited Tower under herself as Amyrlin would be supremely beneficial to Rand - without knowing what the Aelfinn told Rand, without knowing that the Dark One is trying to spread chaos. It's incredibly obvious, even without those things.

Egwene knows that Rand is trying to unite everyone for the Last Battle, and he knows that he will do it by force if necessary, but she knows that willing allies are infinitely better than conquered ones, and strong allies are infinitely better than weak ones, and the Tower has the potential to be an ally even stronger than the Aiel. Egwene has been burdened with the responsibility of making it happen, and she's doing the best she knows how.

[FelixPax]

You think Lews Therin can handle it any better, with his guilt complex? hehe...Rand does need Lews Therin's memories, though, and if he continues to suppress them he'll be in bad shape.

Rand suppressing those L.T.T. memories as led to Taim being in control of the Black Tower. :mad:

Meanwhile Egwene, Nynaeve, Aviendha, and Moiraine never told Rand about the Black Ajah plans concerning Taim, either. :rolleyes:
Their motives may be different, but the outcome is the same - Rand was never told. Moiraine believe the Black Ajah plan is accurate, while Egwene, Nynaeve do not believe it at all and Aviendha has never opened her mouth about it to anyone else.

Elayne never heard of those B.A. plans any of those four above, either as a misled Borderlanders army is on Andor's door step in the search for Rand (to stop him).

It's not only Rand who has suppressed information they do not like or believe in the story, if it goes against what they wanted to believe or desired. Egwene, Nynaeve, Aviendha, and Moiraine are all are guilty of this as Rand ever was.

[FelixPax]

Weiramon supports him because he has to. That means that Weiramon actually goes to war when Rand needs him to, and is actually useful when Rand manages to find something that Weiramon is willing and capable of doing.

High Lord Weiramon of House Saniago only supports Rand at the moment in the series, because Lanfear/Cyndane and now her controller Ishamael/Moridin has ordered him to take this course of action. And Moridin is playing both sides of the board concurrently, pushing & pulling Rand actions, in the end attempt to turn the Dragon Reborn to the Dark One’s side or have him killed if he will not turn. Weiramon is ultimately Moridin’s pawn in the “kill” Rand option, if he believes it necessary to be taken later.

The Cairhienians Bertome and Doressin both overheard Weiramon and Gedwyn:

”I don’t care who you are,” he was saying to the black-coated man in a low, hard voice, spittle flying, “I won’t take more risk without a command direct from the lips of—“
Abruptly the pair became aware of Bertome, and Weiramon’s mouth snapped shut. He glared as if he wanted to kill Bertome. The Asha’man’s ever-present smile melted away.

…

Weiramon laughed. “Kill whoever you wish, wherever you wish, Gedwyn,” he said, drawing sword with a flourish. “I use the methods I use, and that’s that!” Racing back toward his armsmen, he waved the blade over his head shouting, “Saniago! Saniago and glory!” It was no surprise he did not add a shout for his country to those for his House and his greatest love. Source: tPoD, Chapter 24, “A Time for Iron”

Gedwyn is following the orders of Demandred, Moridin and/or Taim, while Weiramon still is following Lanfear/Cyndane old orders, during the above scene when Bertome over hears the discussion.

The problem here, is the Forsaken’s orders are increasingly at odds with each other, and the Darkfriends aren’t sure who to follow if there’s a conflict. Liandrin’s group of 11 remaining Black Ajah in Tanchiro learns a similar conflict among the Forsaken/Fade, when she debriefs Jaichim Carridin and then persuades him to follow her orders instead (Source: tSR, Chapter 38.)

The Forsaken were all working together up until the point when Padan Fain was sprung from a dungeon cell by Ingtar in Far Moran on Shaidar Haran orders (tGH “The Shadow in Shienar”, “Dark Prophecy” and an Robert Jordan interview). Graendal notes this temporary unity during one small meeting among a few Chosen, too.

From here it gets even worse. The last groups either were bonded unwillingly by Asha'man after their failed attempt to DESTROY the Asha'man or were the ones that captured Rand himself. After which they stuffed him in a chest, beat him daily, beat his woman, and finally swore oaths of fealty to him after having Compulsion of all things used on them.

Rand nor any one used “Compulsion” on the Cairhien Aes Sedai nor the Saidar Aes Sedai at all. Rand gave the Saidar Aes Sedai a few forced choices, but it was not and did not rise to “Compulsion” weave.

This distinction does and will matter, when Egwene meets up Rand in the future.


If we are talking support, Taim beats Egwene by a landslide, about one thousand to nothing. And he is a Darkfriend who is building himself a personal army who plans to do god knows what to Rand. At any rate, it isn't pleasant.

Taim is following the very same plan Joiya -- who was one of two captured Black Ajah in Tear -- mentioned to Egwene, Nynaeve & Moiraine. Elayne was specifically mentioned as “not” learning about those plans, as she was romancing Rand at the time in Tear. The particular tactics of Taim maybe have changed over time, yet the overall strategy and goals are the same.

Joiya shrugged. “As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al’Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al’Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years.”

…

Mazrim Taim might well find it impossible to proclaim himself. But if others do it for him, is there a difference that matters?”

“You can see the obvious result. Rand al’Thor will be blamed for the depredations of…Rand al’Thor. Even proof that they are not the same man may well be dismissed. After all, who can say what tricks the Dragon Reborn can play? Perhaps put himself in two places at once. Even the sort who have always rallied to a false Dragon will hesitate in the face of the indiscriminate slaughter and worse laid at his feet. Those who do not shrink at such butchery will seek out the Rand al’Thor who seems to revel in blood. The nations will unite as they did in the Aiel War…” She gave Aviendha an apologetic smile, incongruous beneath those merciless eyes. “…but no doubt much more quickly. Even the Dragon Reborn cannot stand against that, not forever. He will be crushed before the Last Battle even begins, by the very ones he was meant to save. The Dark One will break free, the day of Tarmon Gai’don will come, and the Shadow will cover the earth and remake the Pattern for all time. That is Liandrin’s plan.” Source: tSR, Chapter 6, “Questioners”

Those united nations are the Borderlander armies, who want to capture and/or kill Rand. Hurin wasn't very successful in changing his King's mind on this topic, as he and his nation are a part huge army trying to "hunt" down the Dragon Reborn. The Borderlander rulers have been misled about Rand and his prior actions in the Southern nations, with the Aiel clans by the Shadow's agents.


Light, rumor had him killing Morgase, Elayne, Colavaere, a hundred women probably, and each in a worse way than the last! Source tPoD Ch.22 “Gathering Clouds”

These are only a few of the rumors the Shadow has spread, Rand has heard of, being as removed from the common folk now as he is. Dyelin tells him even worst ones he's never heard of in an audience with him, in Caemlyn. The Black Ajah are attacking his "identity" by rumors now, just as Thom did against some evil High Lords in Tear for Rand in the past.

Yes, the Shadow had an information warfare plan from the very beginning.

“The M’Hael, he sent this.” The paper was snowy white and thick, the seal a dragon impressed in a large oval of blue wax that glittered with golden flecks. It might almost have thought to come from the Dragon Reborn. Taim did think well of himself. “The M’Hael said to tell you the tales of Aes Sedai in Murandy with an army, they are true. Rumor says they are rebels against Tar Valon”—Torval’s sneer thickened with disbelief –“but they are marching toward the Black Tower. Soon, they may become a danger, yes?”

…

“But how can you be sure they are not a threat?” Torval persisted. “Perhaps they are going to Caemlyn, as you say, but if you are wrong, we’ll not know before they attack us.”
“Torval might be right,” Dashiva put in thoughtfully. “I can’t say I’d trust women who put me in a box, and these haven’t sworn any oaths. Or have they?”

“I said leave them alone!” Rand slapped the tabletop, hard, and Hopwil jumped in surprise. Dashiva frowned with irritation before hurriedly smoothing it over, but Rand was not interested in Dashiva’s moods.
Source: tPoD, Chapter 14, “Message from the M’Hael”


The Tairen did not announce them, but rather simply joined the mass of Asha’man and left them to make their own way across the room. The floor tiles were red and black here, too. Taim must particularly like those colors. The man himself was lounging on what could only be called a throne, a massive chair as heavily carved and gilded as any throne she had seen, atop a white marble dais. Pevara focused on him, and not only to avoid feeling all those eyes of men who could channel following her. Mazrim Taim drew the eye. He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black coat was embroidered with blue-and-gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins. Source: KoD Chapter Epilogue “Remember The Old Saying”

Taim is the Dark One's pawn as Joiya implied in tSR. Liandrin & Alviarin both know this, too. Moiraine believed Joiya confession in Tear, yet alas she is not in the Westlands nor able to communicate to anyone now.

When Moiraine is freed though by Mat, Thom and a third person from the Tower of Ghenji; I wonder if she will be able tell Rand, Elayne or not in time???


Verin is a pawn of the Dark One as well...but that needs another thread I think.

[Terez]

Hey Felix, I skipped most of your post because I was distracted by the question - what exactly makes you think Weiramon was taking orders from Lanfear? I can see Moridin or Demandred, but I can't think of anything that indicates Lanfear...

[Weird Harold]

Hey Felix, I skipped most of your post because I was distracted by the question - what exactly makes you think Weiramon was taking orders from Lanfear? I can see Moridin or Demandred, but I can't think of anything that indicates Lanfear...
You mean other than the fact that of the three -- Moridin, Demandred, and Lanfear -- only Lanfear is known to have been in Tear?

Weiramon was probably originally Be'Lal's minion, but after his death, Lanfear is the only Forsaken known to be in the area to take over.

It's not proof, but it is a reasonable deduction that Lanfear took up the reins of Be'Lal's organization.

[Terez]

You mean other than the fact that of the three -- Moridin, Demandred, and Lanfear -- only Lanfear is known to have been in Tear? We know why she was in Tear, though - same reason she was in Shienar, Cairhien, the Waste, and on Toman Head. It's hardly a reason to suspect she's giving Weiramon orders, when we know that, at the time she was in Tear, Be'lal was rather firmly in charge there until Rand dispatched him, and after, Sammael and Semirhage both make moves on the Stone. Yeah, we know Semirhage did so on orders, but Sammael, we have no idea about. And Demandred...we have no idea where he has been at all - it's the greatest mystery of the series, and many things in Tear might be linked to him. Lanfear was very clearly interested in nothing but Rand, and while that doesn't say she didn't have other things going on in Tear, I see no reason to assume that she had charge of Weiramon.

[FelixPax]

Hey Felix, I skipped most of your post because I was distracted by the question - what exactly makes you think Weiramon was taking orders from Lanfear? I can see Moridin or Demandred, but I can't think of anything that indicates Lanfear...

Demandred has connections some Dreadlords via Taim in the Black Tower among other individuals, but not to Weiramon, as best I can tell after multiple readings of the series & Google.com/books searches of all the books.

What is Weiramon to Lanfear connection?


#1 - Weiramon House symbol is almost identical to Lanfear/Cyndane’s sign: sign is the silver Crescent-and-Stars (TFoH, Chapter 41)
#2 – Both Lanfear and Weiramon have similar motives: “glory”, “power”
#3 – It is implied that the likely darkfriend who told Lanfear, of Rahvin’s move into Cairhien is Weiramon. Weiramon had both opportunity & motive to pass this information to her. Lanfear had other things to do outside of Cairhien at the time; among others with Moghedien in Tanchiro, Tarabon and Asmodean in Arad Doman.
#4 – Weiramon was not at the Stone, when it fell to the Dragon Reborn and the Aiel in Tear; he 1st appeared in TFoH outside of the Stone heading to Cairhien.


Most of this evidence is implied, but we known Gedwyn & Weiramon most likely following orders from different Forsaken, because of the disagreement we overhear. Thus whoever order Gedwyn is following is not the Chosen who ordered Weiramon originally.

Gedwyn's orders likely came from the same people who ordered Raefar Kisman to kill Rand in Far Madding later in the series: Demandred; Taim; Moridin. I rule out Taim ordering Weiramon around because he's not a Chosen, so that leaves Demandred and Moridin the most likely person ordering Gedwyn around, during this overheard scene with Gedwyn and Wieramon on horseback by the Cairhien Lords Bertome and Doressin.

As Demandred, Mesaana, and Semirhage are all united in working together up to this point, this rules out Mesaana and Semirhage being Weiramon's Chosen controller.

Aran'gar and Osan'gar were busy doing other things at this time, and are ruled out too.


In the end, points #1 and #2 are what I'm based the connection of Weiramon to Lanfear to. Gedwyn & Raefar Kisman only help rule out some particular Chosen.


Overall, yes the proof is not as strong but it's enough to start to work with. In counterpoint, there is much, much more evidence that Verin is not of the Light & is Black Ajah. Even connected to Ishamael directly of all people.

You mean other than the fact that of the three -- Moridin, Demandred, and Lanfear -- only Lanfear is known to have been in Tear?

Sammael sent Trollocs, Graymen into the kill Rand in the Stone. While Semirhage was ordered by the Dark One to "save" Rand from Sammael's attack in the Stone.

Rahvin almost was killed by Ishamael, either in Andor, Tear, or the Dream World over a disagreement, he says at one point in the series. Not sure if Rahvin ever, stepped foot in Tear or not.

Demandred is most likely linked to the Borderlander Armies "hunting" the Dragon Reborn. Demandred is a "plotter" and went over to the Shadow because of "envy" of the Dragon Reborn, it's generally known. Demandred + Semirhage + Mesaana all have worked together from the beginning of the series. It's the one faction which has survived up to now, after all the Chosen infighting. Yet it looks to be shrinking very soon: Semirhage captured by Rand, and Mesanna's position is in risk.


The only person other than Lanfear (before she dies in Cairhien & is recreated as Cyndane) who might be Wieramon's Forsaken controller would be Graendel, I think. But would Graendel copy Lanfear's sign? Doubtful.

It any case, Moridin controls Cyndane actions now, thus should Weiramon movement in time. The question is "how much" does Cyndane tell Moridin during the torture sessions? If she told him, all Moridin would have to do, is show up in Weiramon's dreams.


A similar situation occurred in Caemlyn with Mili Skane taking control of Falion from Moghedien on Moridin's command. Mili Skane later takes control of Rahvin's darkfriend Daved Hanlon on Moridin's command to get close to Elayne in the palace. Marillin Gamalphin has been bounced from Ishamael control to Moghedien control and back to Moridin's authority under delegation of Mili Skane. It's a messy Shadow hierarchy for many darkfriends in the Westlands, very confusing & dangerous.

Elayne has a gold mine of nine captured Black Ajah, Mili Skane, and Daved Hanlon in Caemlyn if she can get them to talk soon.

Too bad Asne Zeramene was killed by the Windfinders as she likely had inside information about the events when Fain was released from that dungeon. She was at Fal Dara with Verin, Aviarin, Liandrin, Carlinya among others. Nine captured Black Ajah will have to do...instead of Asne knowledge.

[GonzoTheGreat]

But then, I don't understand the hatred of fictional characters at all, especially characters that the author has made clear belong with the good guys.Watch the Star Wars series, and tell me what you think of Jar Jar Binks. Or, for that matter, watch Star Trek and give your opinion on Wesley Crusher.

As for Egwene: has there ever been a case where she supported the man when a man and a woman quarreled in her presence?

[Jokeslayer]

#1 - Weiramon House symbol is almost identical to Lanfear/Cyndane’s sign: sign is the silver Crescent-and-Stars (TFoH, Chapter 41)

Surely this only applies if he adopted the symbol after he came under Lanfear's control? Otherwise it's just a coincidence.

[GonzoTheGreat]

You mean other than the fact that of the three -- Moridin, Demandred, and Lanfear -- only Lanfear is known to have been in Tear?Moridin had been in Tear in a previous life.

And Demandred is suspected to have been in Tear too:
LoC, The First Message, Prologue

Automatically Mesaana dropped into a lecturing tone. "The White Tower now has guards andwards on their strongrooms, inside and out, plus they count everythingfour times each day. The Great Hold in the Stone of Tear is also warded, with a nasty thing that would have held me fast had I tried to pass through or untie it. I don’t think it can be untied except by whoever wove it, and until then it is a trap for any other woman who can channel."
"A dusty jumble of useless rubbish, so I’ve heard," Demandred said in dismissal. "The Tairens gathered anything with even a rumored connection to the Power."
Mesaana suspected he had more than hearsay to go on. She also suspected there was a trap for men woven around the Great Hold, too, or Demandred would have had his sa’angrealand launched himself at Rand al’Thor long since. "No doubt there are some in Cairhien and Rhuidean, but even if you do not walk right into al’Thor, both are full of women who can channel."To be honest, I think that we can trust Mesaana here, since her assumption makes a lot more sense than the idea that Demandred hasn't tried to find something interesting there.

[Matoyak]

But then, I don't understand the hatred of fictional characters at all.

Also, I don't know of any Perrin-haters.
Egwene annoys me. Not quite sure why, but I want to skip her chapters every time, have since book 3... :confused: Not hatred, just annoyance. Similar to my annoyance for all things Perrin after his awesomeness gave way to his current state of emo. And rereading the early books his uber-dislike of all things wolves is kind of annoying as well. It is not a bad thing, it is not of the DO, it helps them all out multiple multiple times, and yet he still treats it like a rattlesnake about to strike... :confused:

[Terez]

Or, for that matter, watch Star Trek and give your opinion on Wesley Crusher.
Wesley was hawt.

[Toss the dice]

For me, Egwene was in the same boat as Elayne and Nynaeve up until maybe book 5 or so. And I liked Egwene more than the other two since she was generally more interesting to read about and her dedication was strong. Then around book 5, it started clicking how selfish she really was and her motives, etc.

But it wasn't to "hate" or "very strong dislike" even then. That started coming about in books 6-7, especially once she had been Amyrlin for a short while. From there my opinion of her hasn't changed.

My dislike of Perrin is almost as strong as my dislike of Egwene. I did mention that earlier in this post btw. His character personality in the last few books has been terribly annoying, even more annoying than earlier books. The topper however to me is the fact that "nothing matters but Faile and the world can burn for all I care, as long as Faile is safe" has been his mentality for awhile now. That's not cool.

I'll put it this way: I like Faile better than I like Perrin, and Faile is probably in my top 5 least liked characters. Prior to a few books ago these two were switched, but Perrin definately takes the cake between the two now.

Mat was my least favorite character of the 3 ta'veren while he was sick. I think a lot of people can identify with that. After he was healed and up to the point the books are now, he has been my overwhelming #1 favorite character. Characters change and evolve in the WoT, like most any story.

Also for the record, I don't like Rand all that much. He is very interesting to read about of course, and his personality, character, etc is awesome and interesting for the story itself, but Rand the person I don't like and haven't for quite a few books. But my liking or not liking him doesn't influence my opinion on *ahem* other things, like things involving Rand.

Finally for Terez. From what you've said in this post, I think there is at least a reasonable chance you are a man-hater or prejudiced towards men. I don't know you whatsoever and this could very well be true or untrue. But unlike you, from what you've said on here, I actually have a few reasons or "evidence" that points in that direction. I can go ahead and report my findings if you'd like.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Wesley was hawt.I have to admit that rather neatly scuppers my argument. I do not want to comment on it, which makes coming up with a good come back difficult.

[Terez]

I bet you thought his mom was hawt.

[Neilbert]

Wesley was hawt.

Wesley was the worst part of that show.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Wesley was the worst part of that show.Obviously, you're a misogynist.

[Weird Harold]

Moridin had been in Tear in a previous life.

Yep, he was in the Stone of Tear (as Ba'Alzamon) at the same time as Be'Lal was and wasn't in any better condition to manage a stable of minions than Be'Lal when Lanfear was known to be in the Stone. :D

Another interesting point about Lanfear, is that while the other Forsaken are known to use minions, Lanfear -- as Keille Shaogi -- is the only one known to keep them around her and travel with them.



... "A dusty jumble of useless rubbish, so I’ve heard," Demandred said in dismissal. "The Tairens gathered anything with even a rumored connection to the Power."

Mesaana suspected he had more than hearsay to go on. She also suspected there was a trap for men woven around the Great Hold, too, or Demandred would have had his sa’angrealand launched himself at Rand al’Thor long since. "No doubt there are some in Cairhien and Rhuidean, but even if you do not walk right into al’Thor, both are full of women who can channel."

To be honest, I think that we can trust Mesaana here, since her assumption makes a lot more sense than the idea that Demandred hasn't tried to find something interesting there.

Which raises the Question of how Rand got into the Great Hold without getting zapped or making it possible for Demandred and others to get in.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I suspect that Moiraine had set a trap for women only. Which sort of raises the question why Egwene&friends weren't zapped. Oh well, maybe Cadsuane arranged it, after Rand had left Tear.
More likely is that this is a detail RJ hadn't thought through too far.

[Weird Harold]

I suspect that Moiraine had set a trap for women only. Which sort of raises the question why Egwene&friends weren't zapped. Oh well, maybe Cadsuane arranged it, after Rand had left Tear.

a nasty thing that would have held me fast had I tried to pass through or untie it.

Is there ANY living Aes Sedai with the knowledge to weave a ward a Forsaken can't defeat? If there is, why isn't something similar used on the White Tower's vaults to reduce the need for multiple daily physical inventories?

Given that the ward in question is in close proximity to an ancient Warding that also couldn't be penetrated by "Forsaken Class" channelers, I'd suspect the wards on the *'angreal hoard to be contemorary or at least related.

[GonzoTheGreat]

It is of course possible that it was done by Rand; he may have had the skill to set such a ward.
Then the question is how women could detect that, and the answer is: evolution. All those strong female channelers who couldn't do it died out long ago, leaving only the ones with the wits no to attempt such a thing.

Not really a satisfactory explanation, I admit, but I doubt we'll get a better.

[Neilbert]

Is there ANY living Aes Sedai with the knowledge to weave a ward a Forsaken can't defeat?

Meh, RJ's channeling rules text file would be a couple hundred pages, so who knows?

If there is, why isn't something similar used on the White Tower's vaults to reduce the need for multiple daily physical inventories?

Because the stuff in the Tower's vaults actually gets used on occasion, making a blanket ward a bad idea, and making theft possible?

[Ozymandias]

There are defenders of Egwene every time this comes up, of both genders, and you know it. We even did a poll on this, remember? :) None of the women claimed to dislike her - we'll all admit she's done annoying things from time to time, but none of us are stupid enough to believe that she's ignoring important goals for personal ambition, or something like that.

I think Egwene has matured throughout the series. I could not stand her, up until a few books ago, now she's one of favorite characters, as she's gained responsibility and her POVs have gone from "OMG, Rand and the boys know nothing, despite the fact that they repeatedly bail me out of tricky situations while I fail to show gratitude," to ones where she is a decent and mature human being.

Nynaeve and Elayne, on the other hand, remain my two least favorite characters in the books. I don't get the Faile hate, though.

[irerancincpkc]

I told myself I wouldn't read the review, but I finally gave in. :D

I'm thrilled half the book will be about Rand, (about time) and I'll just really, really hope that one of the climaxes involves Egwene learning a big lesson so she stops being such a... (too many words to use here...) The dramatic scene sounds awesome, as does the tidbit about Mat...

[irerancincpkc]

Indeed, and all of that is even more reason why Rand needs the Tower united under someone he can trust.
If I was Rand I wouldn't trust Egwene at all.

If I had known this was an Egwene thread I'd have opened it, review regardless, a while ago...

[irerancincpkc]

The 'three in a boat' Foretelling, and the Wise Ones' dream, and Min's funeral bier viewing all speak against it. Rand will die before they do.
Sorry for the triple post, but I just keep finding stuff. There is no proof Rand will die in the series. It's very nice of you to try, Terez, but stating something as if it is fact all the time does not make it so, no matter how arrogantly you go about it... :p

[camber71]

Great review! Of course Ozy's right. Egwene HAS matured. I do think that she'll suffer greatly before her goals are achieved (I am not sure she will personally emerge victorious, only that her goal of a better run Tower that will help Rand at TG). Rand lost his hand, Mat will lose his eye-in this book Egwene will lose her heart-Gawyn's a goner Im guessing!

[Weird Harold]

Because the stuff in the Tower's vaults actually gets used on occasion, making a blanket ward a bad idea, and making theft possible?

Some of the stuff in the Tower vaults get used; some frequently and some only occasionally, but there is a lot of stuff in the Tower Vaults that hasn'tbeen touched for centuries.

A nasty Ward that is Forsaken-proof doesn't necessarily have to be fto get through with the right key or password, and it wouldn't have to cover those items used with any kind of regularity if it is difficult to lower for authorized access -- it's not like the vaults are one, big, jumbled storeroom. :rolleyes:

[GonzoTheGreat]

Of course, a nasty ward with a known password would not be a major obstacle to the BA. And, assuming that the Forsaken has the wits to order a couple fo BA porters, that Forsaken wouldn't find the ward a problem either.

It's the old problem of secrets: two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead.

[Terez]

Sorry for the triple post, but I just keep finding stuff. There is no proof Rand will die in the series. It's very nice of you to try, Terez, but stating something as if it is fact all the time does not make it so, no matter how arrogantly you go about it... :p
Sorry Spammer, but no matter how much you don't like it, the Aelfinn said 'to live you must DIE', and Min said that Alivia will help him DIE. That's proof that he will die. It's not proof that he won't be resurrected or something, but it IS proof that he will die.

[Neilbert]

Is there ANY living Aes Sedai with the knowledge to weave a ward a Forsaken can't defeat? If there is, why isn't something similar used on the White Tower's vaults to reduce the need for multiple daily physical inventories?

You could reason this one out yourself by asking how many sa'angreal Messaana is carrying.

Where are you getting multiple daily physical inventories from?

[irerancincpkc]

Sorry Spammer, but no matter how much you don't like it, the Aelfinn said 'to live you must DIE', and Min said that Alivia will help him DIE. That's proof that he will die. It's not proof that he won't be resurrected or something, but it IS proof that he will die.
Fake death.

[Weird Harold]

You could reason this one out yourself by asking how many sa'angreal Messaana is carrying.

Where are you getting multiple daily physical inventories from?
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54312&postcount=94

[Toss the dice]

Fake death.

This is exactly what I've been thinking since reading some of the prophecies/Dreams years ago. Rand's face crumbling like paper-mache, Logain laughing as he steps across Rand's body (why would he be laughing...), a fake death or something very similar would fit perfectly. Whether or not that includes switching bodies (for example, with Moridin) or otherwise, I'm thinking this is what's going to happen.

[Terez]

The 'Finns didn't say 'to live you must pretend to die'. They said 'to live you must die', and they mean what they say. There's no loophole there, other than a hope that he will somehow be resurrected. He has to die, same as Mat had to 'die and live again'.

That doesn't mean he won't also fake his death, but the Logain dream could simply indicate that Rand's death isn't as permanent as it appears to be.

[Belazamon]

The 'Finns didn't say 'to live you must pretend to die'. They said 'to live you must die', and they mean what they say. There's no loophole there, other than a hope that he will somehow be resurrected. He has to die, same as Mat had to 'die and live again'.Assuming you know for certain what a prophecy means is always, always a guarantee that you're getting it wrong somehow. ;)

[Terez]

Assuming you know for certain what a prophecy means is always, always a guarantee that you're getting it wrong somehow. ;)
No - we just know that the 'Finns always give true answers. If they say he's going to die, then he's going to die, and if you want to put money on it, I'd be glad to. ;)

[irerancincpkc]

The 'Finns didn't say 'to live you must pretend to die'. They said 'to live you must die', and they mean what they say. There's no loophole there, other than a hope that he will somehow be resurrected. He has to die, same as Mat had to 'die and live again'.

That doesn't mean he won't also fake his death, but the Logain dream could simply indicate that Rand's death isn't as permanent as it appears to be.
Nope. You are ignoring a few factors by usimg that prophecy to say Rand must die that is it quite alarming. But then, it must be the way you read it, because prophecies are so plain and easy to understand, for you, at least... :rolleyes: And to take what the Finns said at face value... Terez, I thought you were smarter than that?

I am looking forward to TGS even more now, half the book about Rand, maybe we can get a tidbit about how he will live...

[Sodas]

I rather think that the prophecy really means :

For Rand to live, LTT must die. (partly because I'm a real'er)

And yes, I definately think there could be fakery or body switching involved. Funny how that the Rand-Moridin body switch theory has gained steam. My original thread on the subject didn't get too warm a welcome :) http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=523

[irerancincpkc]

I rather think that the prophecy really means :

For Rand to live, LTT must die.

And yes, I definately think there could be fakery involved. I purposed back in Febuary that Rand might want to do this strategically to confuse and trap his enemies.
Another real possiblity that I've thought a lot about, but am still a fence sitter on.

[Terez]

Nope. You are ignoring a few factors by usimg that prophecy to say Rand must die that is it quite alarming. But then, it must be the way you read it, because prophecies are so plain and easy to understand, for you, at least... :rolleyes: And to take what the Finns said at face value... Terez, I thought you were smarter than that? Stop trying to be condescending; you suck at it. The 'Finns are vague with their prophecies, but not untruthful, and there's nothing to indicate that when they say Rand must die that they mean anything else but that. These are the questions/answers we know (Mat got 6 answers to 4 questions cause he cheated):

Q: Should I go home to help my people?
A: You must go to Rhuidean.

Q: Why should I?
A: If you do not go to Rhuidean, you will die.

Q: Why will I die if I do not go to Rhuidean?
A: You will have sidestepped the thread of fate, left your fate to drift on the winds of time, and you will be killed by those who do not want that fate fulfilled.

Q: What fate?
A: To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons; to die and live again, and live once more a part of what was; to give up half the light of the world to save the world.

Q: How do I win and survive the Last Battle?
A: The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die.

Every single one of those answers is pretty straightforward. You're deluding yourself if you think Rand won't die - can't wait to hear you whining about it when he does.

We know that the Aelfinn give true answers. Rand will die. He also tried to cheat by asking a double question there, and since he asked something that might very well be impossible, I'd be far more inclined to question the 'live' part of the question than the 'die' part. But it's quite clear that Rand faking his death will not fulfill this prophecy.

Also, Lews Therin is already dead and has been reborn as Rand, so it's highly unlikely he'll be getting out of death that way. ;)

[Toss the dice]

"To live you must die" to me is very general when I read it. Even taken word-for-word literally, the die at the end easily allows room for a fake death or some other similar scenario. To live you must die. For example, "dying" to a group of people, the public, the world (for whatever length of time), yet not literally dying has no conflict with the Finns response to me. Even when it is read as straight as possible. It is a very broad statement.

I suppose a big part of it is exactly how you read and interpret it however. All in all, a lot of things in the WoT left to resolve and do, with plenty of possibilities.

[irerancincpkc]

It wouldn't be untruthful for Rand to fake his death, or for LTT to leave Rand. Those would both fulfill the prophecy.

[Weird Harold]

It wouldn't be untruthful for Rand to fake his death, or for LTT to leave Rand. Those would both fulfill the prophecy.
It would be untruthful for Rand to fake his death if it the way he fakes it doesn't allow Halwin Norry to "sit by the corpse for three days" or pass any other test in the WOT for being Dead.

RJ said Mat's 'clinical death' by hanging did not fulfill the 'Finn's "to die and live again" so any 'fakery' has to stand up to a more rigorous test than just a 'not breathing and no detectible heartbeat' definition of death.

The 'Finn aren't the only predictors of Rand's death -- the KC is clear enough to cause Rand to ask the question while still being vague enough for the answer to include "to live you must..."

Min's viewing of Alivia does suggest some fakery in Rand's demise, as does Egwene's Dreams, but the 'fakery' has to be more convincing than just disappearing after the bad guys blew up his bedroom.

[Terez]

If Rand doesn't actually die, then the Aelfinn's prophecy would not be truth. I don't understand why that is so hard to accept - no one is saying there isn't a possibility he'll be resurrected somehow. But we know he has to die.

[Weird Harold]

If Rand doesn't actually die, then the Aelfinn's prophecy would not be truth. I don't understand why that is so hard to accept - no one is saying there isn't a possibility he'll be resurrected somehow. But we know he has to die.
But ressurection is impossible; everybody knows that you can't Heal death -- at least not until Nyneave figures it out. :D

[irerancincpkc]

If Rand doesn't actually die, then the Aelfinn's prophecy would not be truth.
Yes, it would be the truth, since you are interperting the prophecy in the wrong way.

[Terez]

There's nothing to interpret - they speak the truth, they say he will die. Therefore, he will die.

[irerancincpkc]

Yeah, this is going nowhere. I guess I'll just agree to disagree... :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yeah, this is going nowhere. I guess I'll just agree to disagree... :DI'll agree that you disagree. You're also wrong here.

[Weird Harold]

Yes, it would be the truth, since you are interperting the prophecy in the wrong way.
Terez is far from being the only one who sees no need to "interpret" a flat declarative statement that is guaranteed to be true.

[Toss the dice]

Terez is far from being the only one who sees no need to "interpret" a flat declarative statement that is guaranteed to be true.

The statement "To live you must die" I (along with everyone else) acknowledges is guaranteed to happen, at least if it comes about. Remember, it WAS a question, not something that WILL happen. To live he (Rand) must die. Obviously, everyone assumes it will happen like that.

Now. It is a flat declarative statement, very simple. But there is more than one way to "die" as well.

The Finn DID NOT say something along the lines of "To live you must die. What we mean specifically when we say die is that you must literally become deceased in the way that the common person regards people becoming deceased. Only then, after you have become deceased, can it be possible for you to live."

Terez, the flat declarative statement we are talking about is simply too general. Sure, it is a flat declarative statement which (to you and others) has to mean what it says literally to the T, including what YOU know dying means. I obvously realize where you're coming from. But at the same time, the "die" part, along with the rest of the statement and especially in context of the rest of the very simple yet broad statement leaves considerably more room for other options than what I mentioned in the paragraph before this one.

At this point, it is simply opinion on what that statement is going to blossom into for Rand specifically, but it is a simple fact also, that what I've said in this thread is well, FACT. If you can't see where I'm coming from, that's fine...but people are able to see different things.

It is possible that some of your confusion has to do with the fact that "die" in the statement is followed by "live." I'm not sure what this actual "illusion" or whatever it is is really called, but it is a real-life concept. The brain see "live", then directly following it in the statement the brain sees "die." To someone's brain, you automatically attribute the "die" as being the "same" as the "live." Or in other words, the opposite. You see "live" and everyone knows what to live means. Then your brain sees the "die" part and automatically jumps right to the obvious and logical assumption, without thinking that there are other possibilities. I'm sure some know what I'm talking about, I probably didn't explain this concept very well.

For example, would it change anything if the statement read like "to run you must die." Now, include all of the simply weird crap that has involved Rand, the WoT in general, and many other things that DOES allow the word "die" to have more possibilities than the one normal way we thinking of "dying." In our OWN world, the word die has more than one possibility, let alone in the WoT world. Essentially, you're not seeing the forest for the trees. Open up your mind a bit.

I am NOT saying Rand WON'T die if he is to live. He MUST die if he wants to live. That's obvious. What you aren't grasping is that there is more than one way to die. In other words, Rand will die, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the die YOU think will happen.

[Terez]

There's many ways to die, but faking death isn't among them, neither is switching bodies with someone and letting them die in your body, neither is pretending that the crazy voice in your head is dead. Rand will die; might as well get used to it now so you don't cry when it happens.

[jana]

There's many ways to die, but faking death isn't among them, neither is switching bodies with someone and letting them die in your body, neither is pretending that the crazy voice in your head is dead. Rand will die; might as well get used to it now so you don't cry when it happens.


I think it's going a bit far to deny the possibility that only Lews Therin dies. It's two people in one body. It's not a big stretch to think that only one of them will die. And it's not like we have anything else to compare this to. And for the record I don't care one way or another if Rand actually dies.


Anyway, my theory is that it means he has to toss dice. To live you must (cast a) die. *nods*

[Crispin's Crispian]

I think it's going a bit far to deny the possibility that only Lews Therin dies. It's two people in one body. It's not a big stretch to think that only one of them will die. And it's not like we have anything else to compare this to. And for the record I don't care one way or another if Rand actually dies.


So...you're saying Lews Therin didn't actually die in the Prologue of the first book? And how precisely would his consciousness die if Rand doesn't?

Anyway, my theory is that it means he has to toss dice. To live you must (cast a) die. *nods*
That is almost perfect, except the verb for casting dice is just "to dice." Now, if you modify it to mean he's going to make something from a die...that's better, if less appropriate to WoT.

[Terez]

I think it's going a bit far to deny the possibility that only Lews Therin dies. It's two people in one body.
Only one soul, though, so one can't die without the other. Lews Therin's voice might go away, but that hardly counts as a death for Rand. Besides, a lot of us here at Theoryland believe that the 'voice' is a delusion, a defense mechanism subconsciously created by Rand in order to deal with memories that scare him. Under that perspective, the idea is even more ridiculous.

It's not a big stretch to think that only one of them will die.
I think it's a huge stretch, and a logical impossibility.

[irerancincpkc]

Besides, a lot of us here at Theoryland believe that the 'voice' is a delusion, a defense mechanism subconsciously created by Rand in order to deal with memories that scare him. Under that perspective, the idea is even more ridiculous.

Also, a lot of us here believe the voice is real.
There's many ways to die, but faking death isn't among them, neither is switching bodies with someone and letting them die in your body, neither is pretending that the crazy voice in your head is dead. Rand will die; might as well get used to it now so you don't cry when it happens.
Sorry, but no. Faking your death is a way to die, as is having the real voice in your head die too. Those would both, in my opinion, fulfull the prophecy.

[Belazamon]

The Finn DID NOT say something along the lines of "To live you must die. What we mean specifically when we say die is that you must literally become deceased in the way that the common person regards people becoming deceased. Only then, after you have become deceased, can it be possible for you to live."This.

You're arguing the flat-out, non-negotiable truthiness of the Finns' statements. Are we then to conclude that when Mat gives up "half the light of the world," Randland will be 50% darker than it has been previously?

This is a site where we spend our time arguing about interpretations day in and day out. It strikes me as kind of silly to take a stance on any Prophecy and say "anyone who disagrees with my take on this is clearly dumb."

The funny thing is, I don't even necessarily disagree with your assessment. I just take issue with your non-useful critiques of dissenting opinions.

[Terez]

Sorry, but no. Faking your death is a way to die
hahahahahahaha

as is having the real voice in your head die too.
How would that be Rand dying rather than the voice dying, though? It's Rand that has to die. Also, how does a voice die?

Those would both, in my opinion, fulfull the prophecy.
That's because you're dumb.

[Terez]

This.

You're arguing the flat-out, non-negotiable truthiness of the Finns' statements. Are we then to conclude that when Mat gives up "half the light of the world," Randland will be 50% darker than it has been previously?
No, but are we to conclude that when they said Mat must go to Rhuidean, that pretending to go would suffice? That getting someone else to go in his stead would have worked?

The 'Finns are not required to be crystal-clear in their prophecies; they are merely required to be truthful. They said he will die; therefore he will die. End of.

[Belazamon]

How would that be Rand dying rather than the voice dying, though? It's Rand that has to die. Also, how does a voice die?The 'Finn didn't say "Rand has to die." They said "to live, you must die." If there are two people/personalities in Rand's head, we have no way of knowing which "you" the 'Finn were talking to. Hell, it could have been both of them - not everyone uses "y'all" as the plural.

[Belazamon]

No, but are we to conclude that when they said Mat must go to Rhuidean, that pretending to go would suffice? That getting someone else to go in his stead would have worked?I think you are confusing my argument with someone else's. I never proposed that "pretending to go to Rhuidean" was a viable fulfillment of that particular prophecy, nor do I think Rand faking death will fulfill the Finns' prophecy.

The 'Finns are not required to be crystal-clear in their prophecies; they are merely required to be truthful.
I am pleased to see you seem to be able to admit that not all the 'Finn prophecies are to be taken 100% literally. That is a step in the right direction.

They said he will die; therefore he will die. End of.Except by "end of" you are implying that there is nothing left to figure out or interpret. A patently false statement. In what way will Rand/LTT/both "die"?

[Terez]

I think you are confusing my argument with someone else's.
Nope, just pointing out that, when the language is clear, so is the prophecy. When the language is metaphorical, then you're left guessing. Cause there's no strict definition of 'half the light of the world'.

The 'Finn didn't say "Rand has to die." They said "to live, you must die." If there are two people/personalities in Rand's head, we have no way of knowing which "you" the 'Finn were talking to. Hell, it could have been both of them - not everyone uses "y'all" as the plural.
1. It's not two different people. One can't die without the other.

2. Rand asked the question, so the answer was for Rand.

[Toss the dice]

This.

You're arguing the flat-out, non-negotiable truthiness of the Finns' statements. Are we then to conclude that when Mat gives up "half the light of the world," Randland will be 50% darker than it has been previously?

This is a site where we spend our time arguing about interpretations day in and day out. It strikes me as kind of silly to take a stance on any Prophecy and say "anyone who disagrees with my take on this is clearly dumb."

The funny thing is, I don't even necessarily disagree with your assessment. I just take issue with your non-useful critiques of dissenting opinions.

I know where you're coming from, but this has gone beyond opinion now. Personally, I could really care less whether or not Rand dies in the end. He is far from my favorite character.

Like I said, we are no longer talking about opinion, what I have been saying is FACT. The stuff I'm saying really has nothing to do with the WoT, rather simple English. You know, the subject you learn in school? WoT interpretations, opinions, theories, and everything else that is at least indirectly involved with what we are talking about is all well and good. But what we have come to in our discussion concerning "to live you must die" is for lack of a better term simple English.

I am only citing the POSSIBILITIES that exist other than the ONE possibility Terez and company claim is the only possible answer. It is not. Take this sentence: "to live you must jump." Now analyze "jump." Jump how exactly? Literally jump in the air like most people would visualize it? Jump through a space portal? Jump the van? The possibilities are limited by your imagination. It is very similar for "die" regarding our discussion.

The reason this turned into a debate in the first place is because some people obviously aren't smart enough to see beyond their own noses. They immediately fall upon the most obvious answer and claim that is all there is. Ignorance is bliss? I don't know. But I DO KNOW that what I have been saying is FACT. I would bet my life, my son's life, my wife's life on this. It just is. If someone wants more detailed explanations that may just be over some people's heads, I will give it. I'm not bashing anyone's intelligence or anything like that, just saying - it just is.

This is from a completely unbiased point of view regarding the WoT, at least for this topic. Again, what I'm discussing really has nothing to do with WoT at all, rather English.

I know how I am coming off to at least those of you that don't understand this. You think I am wrong and your opinion is right. This is not opinion. There are very few truly non-opinion things that I've seen discussed on this board, and this is one of them. There is a 100% guaranteed chance that I am right, that's all there is to it. You can argue all you want, but you are simply wrong. End of story. However, I still am willing to explain in more detailed, complex methods if you wish.

I'll put it this way. There is only one angle one could take to legitimately claim I am wrong, even though you could not prove it or disprove it. That one angle is pretty deep stuff however and honestly probably doesn't belong on this board. Ever heard the famous saying "I think therefore I am." Yeah. Basically that is a foundation of quite possibly one of the deepest subjects someone could possibly think about. Essentially the discussion of existence on the most core level, we're talking falling down the mother of all rabbit-holes and talking messed up stuff, like CRAZY stuff. Now. I could give you a very detailed, broke-down as much as possible, incredibly long explanation that would likely take me a few days to write off and on that explains myself on what we've been discussing, but I would rather not unless someone really wants me to. But rest assured, I am right. Period. Whether you know it or not, there truly is no argument.

[Weird Harold]

Now analyze "jump." Jump how exactly? Literally jump in the air like most people would visualize it? Jump through a space portal? Jump the van? The possibilities are limited by your imagination. It is very similar for "die" regarding our discussion.

Every society has a commonly accepted unique definition for the condition known as 'dead' and the verb "to die." very few have a commonly accepted unique meaning for the verb "to jump."

Halwin Norry assertion that he wouldn't believe Rand to be dead if he "sat by the corpse for three days" and the assertion that Nyneave wouldn't be happy until she'd Healed someone "three days dead" are strong indicators that the WOT definition of 'to die' is similar to the medieval standard of "no detectible breath or heartbeat for three days."

I believe that whatever happens to fulfill the 'Finn's answer has to meet that definition of "death" and must meet it without any detectible OP weaves of preservation or stasis. That goes a bit beyond "fakery."

[Belazamon]

The reason this turned into a debate in the first place is because some people obviously aren't smart enough to see beyond their own noses...

...I'm not bashing anyone's intelligence or anything like that, just saying - it just is.This sort of thing is getting pretty old. I know, I know, "where have you been for the last X years?" That doesn't mean I'm going to concede that it's a valid form of debate. It's annoying as all hell, no matter who does it.

1. It's not two different people. One can't die without the other.

2. Rand asked the question, so the answer was for Rand.1) That is one of the most hotly debated topics on this board. You're not right because you say you're right. That's not how it works.

2) We know that Rand asked the question, because of a third-person omniscient narrator in the story that we're reading. How do the 'Finn know that Rand asked the question?

[Neilbert]

Because they rummaged through his head.

PS: It's not third person omniscient, it's third person subjective. It's an illusion, but the illusion is that the omniscient third person narrator is limited by what the PoV character experiences and believes. The narrator is most definitely not omniscient, or more accurately is pretending not to be.

[Belazamon]

PS: It's not third person omniscient, it's third person subjective. It's an illusion, but the illusion is that the omniscient third person narrator is limited by what the PoV character experiences and believes. The narrator is most definitely not omniscient, or more accurately is pretending not to be.You are correct, I mistyped.

If they rummaged through his head, though, that leaves open the possibility that they were talking to both Rand and LTT.

[Neilbert]

No, it doesn't, because they answer the questions you speak, not the questions you think, and Rand clearly spoke the question, not LTT.

[Terez]

1) That is one of the most hotly debated topics on this board.
No it isn't - we all agree that there is only one soul. Some people might not understand that one can't die without the other, but it's pretty obviously true no matter which theory you believe.

[Terez]

I carried this debate over to the Malazan WoT thread, just to see what they think. And it's funny, cause there's this guy that has, since he joined, reminded me a lot of Spammer. And this is what he says:

Rand ain't going to be dead at the end of the series, and that's that. Sorry, Terez. Funny thing is, he believes this because he thinks it would be the most horribly disappointing and cliché ending possible for WoT, for Rand to be alive, and since he thinks that RJ is horribly cliché, he's convinced that Rand will be alive at the end of the series. All in all, the folks over there that actually like the series for the most part are like me - they'd be extremely disappointed if Rand ended the series alive. It's the ones that hate the series that are convinced Rand will live...

[Sodas]

Some people might not understand that one can't die without the other,
The personality of LTT survived it's own death. What is to say it couldn't also survive the death of Rand?

[FelixPax]

Funny thing is, he believes this because he thinks it would be the most horribly disappointing and cliché ending possible for WoT, for Rand to be alive, and since he thinks that RJ is horribly cliché, he's convinced that Rand will be alive at the end of the series. All in all, the folks over there that actually like the series for the most part are like me - they'd be extremely disappointed if Rand ended the series alive. It's the ones that hate the series that are convinced Rand will live...


I'd be shocked if Rand, is not somehow killed & reborn again. "Killed & Reborn" can include L.T.T. mental state being removed from Rand's body/mind and then hidden, as one possibility - that would be L.T.T's death & Rand's reborn w/o LTT. Likewise, Mat losing half of his vision -one eye- I assume will occur during his raid with Thom + someone else (Noel?) to save Moiraine in the Tower of Gheniji.

RJ has made Rand in a character combination similar to the old testament's King Daniel and the new testament's Christ. King Daniel had blood on his hands, while you can guess about the what element RJ took from the second's -->rebirth.

Min's vision of Aviendha having multiple babies which turn out unusual, is most likely tied to occur after Rand is born again into a new body....

Guess I don't fix your stereotype of individuals who had read the series, and enjoyed them then...besides I like the puzzles, and riddles hidden within the text and the quick action of the story in books 1 thru 6. Rand's descend into a hellish authoritarianism post-book 6 though, isn't my cup of tea.

RJ sure was 'subtle', with things he wanted hidden from readers...as he once said in an audio interview from the early 90's.

[Jokeslayer]

I'm going to suggest that the Finns used the word die as a variant form of the verb "to dice", as in gambling (in this case, with a single dice). To live, Rand must roll higher than the DO.

[GonzoTheGreat]

That makes sense. And remember: the *finns used the Old Tongue and a not very good translator to communicate with Rand, which introduces translation problems right from the start. So the "die" versus "dice" issue is not unreasonable at all.

And it ties in neatly with my "Mat is the DR" theory: Mat should be the one to roll the dice. There's even a dream of Egwene's of Mat gambling with the DO someone around, so it all makes sense. Or at least as much as Egwene ever does.

[Terez]

The personality of LTT survived it's own death. What is to say it couldn't also survive the death of Rand?
Nothing at all - they'll both 'survive' death so long as the soul isn't destroyed. Souls are eternal.

"Killed & Reborn" can include L.T.T. mental state being removed from Rand's body/mind and then hidden, as one possibility - that would be L.T.T's death & Rand's reborn w/o LTT
Lews Therin already died and was reborn as Rand. Explain to me how Lews Therin can die again without Rand dying.

[Weird Harold]

I'd be shocked if Rand, is not somehow killed & reborn again. "Killed & Reborn" can include L.T.T. mental state being removed from Rand's body/mind and then hidden, as one possibility - that would be L.T.T's death & Rand's reborn w/o LTT.

Just how does that kind of "internal" Death and Rebirth come to be public knowledge sufficient to imprint on species consciousness and survive in garbled form down to our Age?

RJ has made Rand in a character combination similar to the old testament's King Daniel and the new testament's Christ. King Daniel had blood on his hands, while you can guess about the what element RJ took from the second's -->rebirth.

There is far more than the Judeo-Christian traditon mixed into Rand's character. Notably the Norse God Tyr: http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/3_sources/3.02_norse.html or http://hem3.passagen.se/kjnoren/jordan/norse.html

Prophecy does not necessarily have to be fulfilled in a publicly demonstrable manner, but the obvious mythical/religious parallels certainly suggest a public death, interment and resurrection -- "and on the third day He arose from the Dead" -- kind of parallel which doesn't fit any kind of internal resolution or transmigration of souls/body-swapping theory.

'Fakery' is entirely possible, but it has to be a complex or sophisticated kind of fakery that is indistinguishable from the common WOT definition of death.

Rand has to be recognisible as Rand Al'Thor before and after his 'death and ressurection' or it can't become Legend and Myth -- because nobody outside of Rand's head will know (or be able to prove) it happened.

[Toss the dice]

Here's a question for you Weird Harold. What does Halwin Norry's quote on sitting around a corpse for 3 days have to do with the Finn's world and their use of language, this regarding "die." While I'm on the topic, you do realize the statement Halwin Norry made was in no way evidence of even HIS definition of death, let alone the WoT world in general right? The Halwin Norry statement is definately worthy of being mentioned I believe, but if you're trying to pass it off for anything even approaching hard-proof, you're crazy.

I can't believe the sort of crap on here that people pass off as fact when it is common sense they are wrong in the first place. It's almost as if people do it on purpose to get a laugh or something.

[Weird Harold]

The Halwin Norry statement is definately worthy of being mentioned I believe, but if you're trying to pass it off for anything even approaching hard-proof, you're crazy.

If Halwin Nory's offhand comment was the ONLY reference -- and probable foreshadowing -- to Rand being dead for three days, it wouldn't be even evidence of anything other than his cynicism.

It is however, just one piece of evidence.

Specifically it is evidence of a cultural or customary 'test' for death when death isn't from obvious causes like missing body parts and/or copious amounts of blood that is common to almost every preindustrial society. Read up on why almost every society waits at least three days before burial.

[Belazamon]

Lews Therin already died and was reborn as Rand. Explain to me how Lews Therin can die again without Rand dying.As I keep pointing out, it depends on what you mean by "dying." I could make an argument that LTT never actually "died" after all, since his personality continues in Rand three thousand years later.

What it comes down to, I think, is that you appear to be letting your position that LTT is a construct colour your perception of the "prophecy" of the 'Finn. While I agree that it makes the most sense and explains all the available evidence, I'm willing to concede that we might possibly not be right in the end. LTT might end up being "another person in Rand's head" who can actually be "killed" in some sense without destroying Rand entirely.

Long story short, I guess I've been attempting to play devil's advocate here, because I think you're completely shutting out some avenues of speculation. However, it appears impossible to shake you out of your convictions, so it seems silly of me to continue discussing this with you.

[Sodas]

Nothing at all - they'll both 'survive' death so long as the soul isn't destroyed. Souls are eternal.

And personalities other than The Hero Archetype in TAR are not eternal. I don't understand how come you feel all personalies are eternally kept with the soul.

[Terez]

And personalities other than The Hero Archetype in TAR are not eternal. I don't understand how come you feel all personalies are eternally kept with the soul.
Because Birgitte proves that they are.

[Weird Harold]

Because Birgitte proves that they are.
No she doesn't. Birgitte proves that Memories of all past lives stay with the soul (but are normally inaccessible while incarnate) but her personality is the singular personality of her last incarnation.

[Neilbert]

I could make an argument that LTT never actually "died" after all, since his personality continues in Rand three thousand years later.

I could make an argument that the Sun won't rise tomorrow.

[Neilbert]

but her personality is the singular personality of her last incarnation.

I never got that impression at all. Her personality to me was a conglomerate, an archetype for the personality rather than the personality of the last incarnation.

[Sodas]

Because Birgitte proves that they are.

No, Birgitte proves that she has only one personality. From the moment we meet her in TAR, to our current situation as a True World character, she has always exhibited one singular personality. And we definately haven't seen any evidence of multiple-personality Heros in TAR.

What she also proves is that once a Hero is placed in a mortal body, that body somehow naturally reduces the access to all previous memories other than the current ones. Which means that Rand's body should be blocking LTT's memories.

When it comes to possible ressurection, I think Verin in the Great Hunt sums it up best,
"You are the Dragon Reborn," she said quietly. "Oh, you can die, but I don't think the Pattern will let you die until it is done with you." Ihmo, she is being very truthful about the Pattern keeping the Dragon alive after death. Like I have suggested before, the Pattern had yet to finish with LTT. Clearly, the Pattern kept him alive somehow. It's reasonable to therefore believe Rand can suffer the same fate, or something similiar as LTT, if he is unsuccessful.

P.S. I'm pretty sure conglomerate and archetype are opposite by definition. Archetype generally refers to an original.

[Weird Harold]

I never got that impression at all. Her personality to me was a conglomerate, an archetype for the personality rather than the personality of the last incarnation.
Could be. It is still a SINGLE coherent personality that has the memories of uncounted other lives.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Lews Therin already died and was reborn as Rand. Explain to me how Lews Therin can die again without Rand dying.As a great philosopher (not Britney) once said: "What is the meaning of 'is'?"
Though in this case, a more relevant variation would be even more appropriate, I think: "What is the meaning of 'is not'?"

[greatwolf]

Well then, how do we define die? Medicine has several definitions of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death, including brain dead and legal death as we all know. If Rand's body stops functioning and vital functiuons cannot be restored, then he can be regarded as dead. Personality has never been a part of the medical definition of death for obvious reasons.

Yet, in more religious/philosophical terms, it really isn't death until the soul has crossed the barrier into the "realms of the dead". Resurrection is only meaningful where it can be seen as a demonstration of "power" over death. A technical error hardly accomplishes the same thing. Rand may resurrect to prove that he has defeated the lord of the grave, though I don't see how that has anything to do with winning TG.

[GonzoTheGreat]

There's another complicating factor: the soul can be removed from the body without killing that.
This happens to Gray Men, for instance. It is how a Draghkar attacks, though in that case bodily death follows very rapidly. It can happen when you venture into the Ways and encounter Machin Shin.

And what all these have in common is the DO's influence. So it would seem at least possible that he is capable of removing Rand's soul from his body while that body still keeps functioning.

[Weird Harold]

Well then, how do we define die? Medicine has several definitions of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death, including brain dead and legal death as we all know.

The question isn't how WE define death, it is how 'Death' is defined/understood in the WOT.


Misdiagnosed death

There are many anecdotal references to people being declared dead by physicians and then 'coming back to life', sometimes days later in their own coffin, or when embalming procedures are just about to begin. Owing to significant scientific advancements in the Victorian era, some people in Britain became obsessively worried about living after being declared dead.

Everything in your link prior to "the Victorian Era" is irrelevant to how the WOT defines 'Death' but the pre-Victorian concerns over 'misdiagnosed Death' that leads to the custom of Wakes and waiting as long as weather conditions permit before burial exist in the WOT.

One iron-clad definition of Death in the WOT is, "an Aes Sedai said he was dead," but Aes Sedai are to rare for that to be the cultural standard.

[greatwolf]

One iron-clad definition of Death in the WOT is, "an Aes Sedai said he was dead," but Aes Sedai are to rare for that to be the cultural standard.

There was a scene in which an AS diagnosed Dobraine as being "near death" in CoT. And of course Gray men are said to be deader than dead. Of I suppose that means AS can tell if the soul has left the body.

The problem right now is the walking dead. Usually WoT cosmology seems to be that the dead are in TAR, unable to access the RW. But with the dead walking, that barrier may be gone.

If the absence of soul from body is a prerequisite, then death means both of Rand's personalitties will be removed from the body along with the single soul at death.

Whether both will return depends on the mechanism of return or perhaps the agency that returns the soul and which soul.

[Toss the dice]

Personally, I believe Rand will die (the regular, common definition) and will be resurrected somehow, with the whole process likely being fantastic. But I will laugh my ass off if Rand ends up not dying from the regular definition of the word like some of you simple-minded people seem to think is the only option.

[Sodas]

There's another complicating factor: the soul can be removed from the body without killing that.
This happens to Gray Men, for instance. It is how a Draghkar attacks, though in that case bodily death follows very rapidly. It can happen when you venture into the Ways and encounter Machin Shin.

And what all these have in common is the DO's influence. So it would seem at least possible that he is capable of removing Rand's soul from his body while that body still keeps functioning.

The point of which, means that he could end up in a new body. I had purposed before Rand being extracted, leaving LTT in charge of the Rand body.

Do you agree?

[greatwolf]

I don't think that if any part of Rand's current personality remains in that body, he can be counted truly dead. I think its mentioned somewhere that AS in the aol could revive anyone if the "smallest spark" of life wwas there. Of course, semi is the only one of those left.

[Neilbert]

But I will laugh my ass off if Rand ends up not dying from the regular definition of the word like some of you simple-minded people seem to think is the only option.

It's possible, but it would have to be something much more significant than Lews Therin "dying". An ending like that would have me put my book down in disgust.

Personally the ending I favor is Rand living on in another body (Morridin's), still cursed by the Dark One's stigmata, forcing him to live a private quiet existence as a farmer somewhere. I like this because it would be the redemption of both Lews Therin and Rand al'Thor, and both of them grew up around farms at least (Rand as a farmer, LTT swimming across a river to pick Plums in an orchard iirc, idk if LTT was ever a farmboy).

I don't think this story is going to end without Rand becoming human again, though if that means killing the crazy voice in his head making him suddenly sane I will be very very disappointed.

[greatwolf]

I don't think this story is going to end without Rand becoming human again, though if that means killing the crazy voice in his head making him suddenly sane I will be very very disappointed.

I don't think you have anything to fear from that. RJ isn't stupid. Rand doesn't have enough symptoms to be declared psychotic yet, though I'm no madman and I cant tell:)

A sudden abrupt descent into madness can't be ruled out, but what would be the cause now the taint is gone?

like some of you simple-minded people seem to think is the only option.

Are you seeking some attention?

[Toss the dice]

Are you seeking some attention?

Yes, I am seeking attention from people I don't even know on an internet WoT forum.

On a serious note, I say things straight and mean what I say. It doesn't mean you have to like it.

[GonzoTheGreat]

The point of which, means that he could end up in a new body. I had purposed before Rand being extracted, leaving LTT in charge of the Rand body.How could that be managed? They're both linked to the same soul too, after all.
Perhaps Rand's personality could be totally annihilated. But that does not seem what you suggest.

[Sodas]

How could that be managed? They're both linked to the same soul too, after all.

Well, no link is unbreakable.

Perhaps Rand's personality could be totally annihilated. But that does not seem what you suggest.

Right. I'm suggesting a seperation of personalities, with the LTT personality taking over the functioning of the Rand body. I purposed in the thread I linked, that LTT would more or less go out and die on the slopes of SG to fufill the first part of the prophecy.

And then Rand would later come back and actually shed his newfound body's blood in the Pit of Doom.

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."

I think the "twice dawns the day" means that the day actually seems like two sun rises ...

the first is either the memorial for Rand's body that LTT died with, or the actual death of Rand's body.

that second dawn is Rand's attempt to seal the Bore in the Pit of Doom AFTER LTT has died in Rand's body. Afterall, patching up just Saidin seemed like a sun rise to every channeler on the planet. Since the Pattern effects everyone, patching the Pattern should also be like a sun rise, but this time for everyone.

That means there has to be two bodies to shed blood with. Hence, there needs to be a seperation.

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.”

Nicola's foretelling predicts the 3 super girls to be in a boat along with a man who has already fufilled the prophecy of dying, and yet still alive. I think it speaks to LTT dying in a Great Battle, but not achieving victory, while Rand sneaks in to finish the job.

[NargsBrood]

jason's statement about RAFO and ASMO seemed pretty ambiguous to me about whether we would find out in this book or the next. well... not so ambiguous in my oppinion but his statement but definately open for interpretation.

My question i suppose is if it is still a RAFO for him. I dare say "no" because since he is using it implies that he knows which would have only come about by him reading it in book 12.

your thoughts?

[FelixPax]

And personalities other than The Hero Archetype in TAR are not eternal. I don't understand how come you feel all personalies are eternally kept with the soul.

How would Ishamael/Moridin fix into the pattern, in your analysis then? L.T.T once spoke to Rand of "we three are all destroyers, not builders" (rough quote). Doesn't that mean Ishamael is part of the pattern, thus eternal is some manner or degree?

[Enigma]

How would Ishamael/Moridin fix into the pattern, in your analysis then? L.T.T once spoke to Rand of "we three are all destroyers, not builders" (rough quote). Doesn't that mean Ishamael is part of the pattern, thus eternal is some manner or degree?

You might be over complicating this statement by LTT. LTT knew/knows that he caused a lot of destruction. He also knows that Rand is also causing a lot of destruction. Lastly he seems to have figured out that Moridin used the True Power as I think he even comments on this in the last book.

Rand may not know a lot about the inner workings of the Shadow but LTT was leader for 10 years in the war. If he knows about the True Power its not too much of a stretch for him to know that for a dark friend to get this ability is rare and quite an honour.

From what LTT knows about the Dark One and the forsaken you don't get that sort of honour if you are a nice guy/girl who makes positive contributsions to society. Hence Moridin is a destroyer as well as he much be very high up in the Shadow grouping.

[FelixPax]

You might be over complicating this statement by LTT.

Does Ishamael/Moridin spirit pre-date L.T.T & Rand's embodiment of the spirit of Dragon Reborn, then? Is that clear enough?

LTT knew/knows that he caused a lot of destruction. He also knows that Rand is also causing a lot of destruction. Lastly he seems to have figured out that Moridin used the True Power as I think he even comments on this in the last book.

Rand has mentally seen Moridin in his mind, after that huge Trolloc attack out of the Ways in KoD book too. The very same man who helped save him against Sammael, is in his head. It's not only LTT knowledge here about Moridin.


The thing is how does Ishamael/Moridin alone have access to the Dragon Reborn mind? Both Rand & Min know Ishamael/Moridin will touch Rand, and each will become one; yet Min isn't sure who will survive the encounter.

Even Lanfear/Cyndane cannot seem to do, what Moridin can do--get into Rand's head directly outside of the Dream world. These skills seems to be highly unique, part of the pattern tied to the Shadow's champion Moridin maybe?

[Weird Harold]

Rand has mentally seen Moridin in his mind, after that huge Trolloc attack out of the Ways in KoD book too. The very same man who helped save him against Sammael, is in his head. It's not only LTT knowledge here about Moridin.


The thing is how does Ishamael/Moridin alone have access to the Dragon Reborn mind?

The link between Moridin and Rand was forged when their balefire beams crossed in Shadar Logoth. It is NOT a voluntary link on either part, any more than the rainbow colors and visons Rand shares with Mat and Perrin are voluntary or controllable.

[Neilbert]

I think that the balefire had nothing to do with it, and that the bond was formed while Morridin and Rand were holding hands. Morridin used the True Power and Rand sensed nothing, and now they are linked like Isam and Luc were linked before one of them died.

There's no proof it was the balefire, it's just the easiest explanation so people run with it like it's a fact.

[Matoyak]

There's no proof it was the balefire, it's just the easiest explanation so people run with it like it's a fact.
I thought it was an RJ quote?

[Weird Harold]

I think that the balefire had nothing to do with it, and that the bond was formed while Morridin and Rand were holding hands. Morridin used the True Power and Rand sensed nothing, and now they are linked like Isam and Luc were linked before one of them died.

There's no proof it was the balefire, it's just the easiest explanation so people run with it like it's a fact.
That may be, but the crossed balefire theory does have the minor benefit of being "proposed" by the books without contradiction:

Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed peculiar. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now… ? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him.

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can't think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father's farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond's Field as if he had grown up there. Does that make any sense to you?


Rand acknowledges Moridin must have been using the True power, but he doesn't consider for a moment that a link might have been forged deliberately using the TP.

Rand might well be wrong, but until something in the books contradicts his assumption, it has to stand as the "official" explanation.

[Toss the dice]

That may be, but the crossed balefire theory does have the minor benefit of being "proposed" by the books without contradiction:


Rand acknowledges Moridin must have been using the True power, but he doesn't consider for a moment that a link might have been forged deliberately using the TP.

Rand might well be wrong, but until something in the books contradicts his assumption, it has to stand as the "official" explanation.

Agreed.

[Enigma]

I doubt very much if the link between Rand & Moridin was made deliberatly. We know that Moridin is being effected by the link as when Rand is nearly sick in Tear in the last book he has a vision of Moridin and he looks pissed.

Of course it could be that Moridin did not know what the effects would be but the scene seems pretty much to be set up so that it was an accident or even better part of Rand's affect on the pattern.

In any event would any forsaken willingly link themselves to a person who is No 1 on the Shadow's list of people to either be killed or otherwise put into a very bad position.

[GonzoTheGreat]

There's no proof it was the balefire, it's just the easiest explanation so people run with it like it's a fact.Well, there is the following quote:
"There's something very important I forgot to tell you. Don't cross the streams… It would be bad… Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneously and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light."

[Ishara]

So um, I can't believe I missed the review! Am super jazzed to read the book now!

While I wish that Moiraine could just stay dead, I bet that the rescue is gonna be the best ever. My only reservation is the bit about Rand's BestSceneEver. People kept saying that about Nynaeve and the Malkieri and I just wasn't feeling it the same way. Hopefully I'm not let down. But overall? Super excited!

[4Alethinos]

I am continually fascinated in how people can suggest that the soul can be split into pieces and distributed around into various bodies willy nilly. It is laughable. You can have a whole pile of personalities like facets on a diamond. You do not split the diamond to make two souls.

I believe that what RJ said about one soui and two personalities is gospel.

The LTT persona may wind up repressed in the end of the series. I personally do not believe that the Dragon soul will be sent back to the Hero pool. He will live and will, most likely, wind up in Moridin's relatively undamaged body.

All of the views we have seen of the 4th Age say nothing abuot the presence of the DR. We have seen a lot of precursors about Logain gaining great glory, etc. He will take credit for a lot and Rand could care less.

I liked the parallel to Thomas Covenant and the arch enemy needing him and him alone to break the final walls to his prison. That is a likely explanation that the Forsaken must hate with a passion. It is the only real way for them to survive is to kill Rand and rule under the Do with an intact Wheel and Pattern. Anything beyond that will most likely doom them.

"TAANSTAAFL" hehe

[Belazamon]

I am continually fascinated in how people can suggest that the soul can be split into pieces and distributed around into various bodies willy nilly. It is laughableSomeone would like a word with you...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/Voldemort.jpg

[GonzoTheGreat]

The LTT persona may wind up repressed in the end of the series. I personally do not believe that the Dragon soul will be sent back to the Hero pool. He will live and will, most likely, wind up in Moridin's relatively undamaged body.Flaming eyes, a mouth that's hotter than Saldaean ice peppers, a tendency to melt metal in his hands when he gets excited, probably a couple of Min's knives stuck into various shoulders, yes, you're right, that body will be "relatively undamaged" compared to the one that he has now by that time. Mind, that's not saying all that much.