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JSUCamel
08-03-2009, 06:00 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/08/03/new.york.jobless.graduate/index.html

This is priceless. Read the article. Here are some snippets of solid gold shit.

Trina Thompson, 27, of the Bronx, graduated from New York's Monroe College in April with a bachelor of business administration degree in information technology.

On July 24, she filed suit against the college in Bronx Supreme Court, alleging that Monroe's "Office of Career Advancement did not help me with a full-time job placement. I am also suing them because of the stress I have been going through."

In her complaint, Thompson says she seeks $70,000 in reimbursement for her tuition and $2,000 to compensate for the stress of her three-month job search.

As Thompson sees it, any reasonable employer would pounce on an applicant with her academic credentials, which include a 2.7 grade-point average and a solid attendance record.

"They're supposed to say, 'I got this student, her attendance is good, her GPA is all right -- can you interview this person?' They're not doing that," she said.

She suggested that Monroe's Office of Career Advancement shows preferential treatment to students with excellent grades. "They favor more toward students that got a 4.0. They help them more out with the job placement," she said.

Asked whether she would advise other college graduates facing job woes to sue their alma maters, Thompson said yes.

"It doesn't make any sense: They went to school for four years, and then they come out working at McDonald's and Payless. That's not what they planned."


Priceless.

Davian93
08-03-2009, 06:05 PM
Hmm...yeah, I'd hire her if I were a HR manager. Or I'd google her and never touch her. So, you're a moron who can't get a job out of college in a horrible economy...yeah, your bench is over there.

What an idiot. Guarantee she wants a job making $70 K to start or something else ridiculous. Try applying for entry level 3rd shift helpdesk $10 an hour jobs and get back to me, idiot! She's got an impressive 2.7 GPA at a technical college and she's mad she can't a job.

Freaking Generation Y and freaking entitlement syndrome...when will it stop?!?

EDIT: I Swear the following is true: I so didn't see the $70 K thing in Camels post when I made my above comment...i just pulled a number off the top of my head that I thought was ridiculous for an entry level idiot...too too funny.

EDIT 2: SO the college helps out the better students more than the mediocre ones?!? I mean, WOW, that's LIFE MORON!!!

Terez
08-03-2009, 06:09 PM
That is awesome.

In her defense, college career helpers are not all that helpful...and the guidance the kids need to be prepared for the real world is decidedly lacking. No one tells you, as an undergrad, what you'll need to do to get into grad school, what you'll need to do to get the job you want, how many job openings are in your field, etc. The number of kids who have no idea about any of these things is disturbing, and the lack of interest on the part of profs and counselors in helping them to prepare is even more disturbing.

Ozymandias
08-03-2009, 06:32 PM
That is awesome.

In her defense, college career helpers are not all that helpful...and the guidance the kids need to be prepared for the real world is decidedly lacking. No one tells you, as an undergrad, what you'll need to do to get into grad school, what you'll need to do to get the job you want, how many job openings are in your field, etc. The number of kids who have no idea about any of these things is disturbing, and the lack of interest on the part of profs and counselors in helping them to prepare is even more disturbing.

Well, this doesn't pertain to the lawsuit, because she's not alleging her counselors were incompetent or unhelpful, but that they were discriminating against her and her fantastic GPA.

Not to be elitist... but I consider a 2.7 not great at all. And no wonder its easier for the people with the 4.0's to get jobs! This attitude is why she's unemployed and likely always will be. With any luck, she always will be. Though someone with this attitude would make a fantastic DMV employee...

Davian93
08-03-2009, 07:20 PM
Well, this doesn't pertain to the lawsuit, because she's not alleging her counselors were incompetent or unhelpful, but that they were discriminating against her and her fantastic GPA.

Not to be elitist... but I consider a 2.7 not great at all. And no wonder its easier for the people with the 4.0's to get jobs! This attitude is why she's unemployed and likely always will be. With any luck, she always will be. Though someone with this attitude would make a fantastic DMV employee...

This petty lawsuit would tell me all I would need to know about her personality...I would never hire her. That chip on her shoulder along with her entitlement syndrome ($70K to start with no real world skills?!? Gee, can we give her a job).

What a moron.

JSUCamel
08-03-2009, 07:23 PM
The 70k she's asking for is reimbursement for tuition. Still a joke though.

Davian93
08-03-2009, 07:29 PM
The 70k she's asking for is reimbursement for tuition. Still a joke though.

Yeah, good luck with that...that's what I get for skimming. Either way, Welcome to the real world, idiot.

Ivhon
08-03-2009, 08:15 PM
I am SO suing Princeton....

Davian93
08-03-2009, 08:25 PM
I am SO suing Princeton....

Can I join in on that and get a class-action lawsuit going? I mean, I never went there but I figure they somehow owe me.

Marie Curie 7
08-03-2009, 09:20 PM
In her defense, college career helpers are not all that helpful...and the guidance the kids need to be prepared for the real world is decidedly lacking. No one tells you, as an undergrad, what you'll need to do to get into grad school, what you'll need to do to get the job you want, how many job openings are in your field, etc. The number of kids who have no idea about any of these things is disturbing, and the lack of interest on the part of profs and counselors in helping them to prepare is even more disturbing.

Well, obviously it depends on what university you're attending, and what your major is. My department offers Freshmen Information Night, Sophomore Information Night, Junior/Senior Information Night, etc. At the Junior/Senior Information Night, the faculty present information to students about resume preparation, job searching, graduate school preparation, etc. Unfortunately, the vast majority of our students don't bother to show up to any of these events.

In addition, everybody in my department is available to meet with students to advise them about career and graduate school opportunities. I'm the person in charge of graduate admissions for my department, and I field a myriad of questions from our students and others regarding graduate preparation and admissions. We're always available to offer assistance...even if students don't take advantage of the resources that we make available to them, all they need to do is ask...

DeiwosTheSkyGod
08-03-2009, 09:46 PM
Yeah, I agree - that kind of stuff is readily available, at least at my school, but you really need to seek it out; it's not coming to look for you.

Ridiculous lawsuit, though. A college isn't there to make sure you're set after you finish.

Terez
08-03-2009, 09:47 PM
I have asked, with all of my professors that I work closely with, and I get a lot of brick wall from them. It's frustrating. I don't find the group sessions to be all that helpful, especially considering that what I want to do is different from what most music majors want to do, so most of the general information isn't really all that applicable to me. I tried to talk about it with my musicology prof, and got the distinct impression he'd rather be talking about football or something. I tried to talk about it with theory professors, and one of them acted sort of clueless and the other was discouraging (telling me that getting into IU was unlikely even with the 4.0 I had then). I tried to talk about it with my piano prof but she's so ADD I can't get her to give me any details.

Dragon Thief
08-03-2009, 11:48 PM
I have asked, with all of my professors that I work closely with, and I get a lot of brick wall from them. It's frustrating. I don't find the group sessions to be all that helpful, especially considering that what I want to do is different from what most music majors want to do, so most of the general information isn't really all that applicable to me. I tried to talk about it with my musicology prof, and got the distinct impression he'd rather be talking about football or something. I tried to talk about it with theory professors, and one of them acted sort of clueless and the other was discouraging (telling me that getting into IU was unlikely even with the 4.0 I had then). I tried to talk about it with my piano prof but she's so ADD I can't get her to give me any details.

If you were a web programmer, you could just ask google for help. Literally. :D

JSUCamel
08-04-2009, 12:51 AM
There's a similar problem in the theatre departments. I think more marketable degrees have better ways of helping their students find jobs, whereas for artistic degrees.. well. you're not SUPPOSED to WORK in your field.. it's ART.

What theatre departments really need to do is encourage majors to take business classes, teach them what the real theatre world is like out there, show them that just acting on stage isn't going to put food on the table. Unfortunately, what most theatre departments do is put into their students heads that they have to go to Broadway to succeed (which is patently untrue) and so as soon as most of these kids graduate, they fly to NYC and try and "make it". And fail miserably.

Terez
08-04-2009, 01:54 AM
There's a similar problem in the theatre departments. I think more marketable degrees have better ways of helping their students find jobs, whereas for artistic degrees.. well. you're not SUPPOSED to WORK in your field.. it's ART.
Yeah, I think that is a part of it in music, but really, most music majors at my school, including myself, are bound for teaching. Most of them are bound for public schools, and since I don't want to be an ensemble conductor (I wouldn't be good at it), I'm shooting for teaching in higher education, but we all have a fairly concrete field to shoot for. Theater programs are generally not as expansive as music programs in schools, so there are far less jobs that are more or less available to anyone who makes it through school and can swing a job interview. There are more elite jobs available to students who are talented and/or work hard.

Everyone's got a counselor, but the counselors are generally apathetic about coaching kids on this kind of thing in the music department. It's very much a sink-or-swim kind of attitude, which favors the especially gutsy and the ass-kissers, but sort of leaves the typical musician floundering a bit.

There are a good number of music majors that go to school with dreams that are probably a little bit impractical, and it would definitely be a good idea to nip that idea in the bud as soon as these kids sign up for school, but to do it in a way that encourages them to go for the jobs that are realistic.

I've thought about volunteering to do a summer thing for my local high school (for free), to teach the kids who are thinking about majoring in music some music theory so they can get a feel for what kind of stuff they'll be expected to learn in college (music theory makes a lot of folks change majors their freshman year, so it would be better for them to figure that out in high school I think). If they decide they can handle it, they'll have a head start on the hard stuff when they get there. And hopefully, I can give them an idea of what to expect in the field, too - there's still a lot I don't know, but I probably know enough to settle most high school kids' basic delusions.

I really need to get on that - I've been thinking about doing it for a while. Maybe I can start doing it this fall on weekends, or during the week when I'm free and school is in (when I was in high school, there was an elective period ostensibly for practicing that a lot of music nerds took, and half the time we sat around playing cards - either spades or kings and peasants). If they still have something like that I might be able to capitalize on it.

Jokeslayer
08-04-2009, 04:17 AM
Why didn't I think of this...

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2009, 04:54 AM
Why didn't I think of this...Because you're not an American, obviously.

This girl is living the American Dream: having someone to sue.

Ozymandias
08-04-2009, 07:35 AM
Everyone's got a counselor, but the counselors are generally apathetic about coaching kids on this kind of thing in the music department. It's very much a sink-or-swim kind of attitude, which favors the especially gutsy and the ass-kissers, but sort of leaves the typical musician floundering a bit.


Not to imply you or most musicians aren't working hard, but isn't this statement sort of obvious? I mean, whats the saying, that luck helps those who help themselves, or whatever? No one, in any field, gets a job unless they work for it. And I see where your coming from and think colleges and unis should do a better job providing information, but quite frankly, if I'm a college counselor, I'm a lot more motivated to help the student that seems motivated to help themselves, than I am to exert twice as much effort for less than half the chance of success for the person who just isn't thinking about a job, or tryingt o get one.

I mean, at my school and a bunch of others, every story I've heard, both the good and the bad, boils down to; the people who were proactive were happy with the service provided, whereas the people who didn't understand that "counselor" doesn't translate into "I'll find you a job and take care of everything, just wait on the interview, its just a formality though," weren't as pleased.

Zanguini
08-04-2009, 08:39 AM
The Career department at my school is much more interested in helping a few students and setting up networking and resume help. They are supposed to keep lists of whose hiring and not and a list of internships. I went over there because the time for my internship is getting close. I have to have an internship approved by my department and by them so when i went over there i asked to see which ones were avaliable they directed me to a folder. This was a 1 inch binder with 1 job posting listed. And it was stamped filled. So I left and decided to find my own. I however have been told that i will only be able to have an internship that has been preapproved and put into the book so other students may have the opportunity to apply for it.

Matoyak
08-04-2009, 09:21 AM
Whoa, she considers a 2.7 to be good? Wow. She gunna go faaaaaaarrrr. Isn't a 2.7 like, all C's or worse?

yks 6nnetu hing
08-04-2009, 09:31 AM
that's... disturbing. If universities started admitting only people they KNOW they can find jobs for, I have a sneaky suspicion that the whole world might invert.

plus side would be that there would be more engineers and IT monkeys

minus side would be that there would be no humanities graduates. Other than teachers - but, you know, after a while even thosewould die out.

Davian93
08-04-2009, 09:37 AM
Ironically, perhaps Camels and DT can back this up, its somewhat difficult to get a job as an IT guy or Engineer due to outsourcing and a ton of individuals that decided that Comp Science would be the way to go in the late 90s/early 00s.

Is that still correct?

yks 6nnetu hing
08-04-2009, 09:47 AM
Ironically, perhaps Camels and DT can back this up, its somewhat difficult to get a job as an IT guy or Engineer due to outsourcing and a ton of individuals that decided that Comp Science would be the way to go in the late 90s/early 00s.

Depends. Like my mom likes to say: if you're not working enough, lower your asking price. If you're working too much, raise your asking price.

Also depends on the kind of education you have within the IT - if you're a graphic designer then I can see how things might be difficult. If you're a developer, sysadmin or a tech guy then there's probably plenty of work to go around.

Terez
08-04-2009, 09:49 AM
Whoa, she considers a 2.7 to be good? Wow. She gunna go faaaaaaarrrr. Isn't a 2.7 like, all C's or worse?
2.7 is something like all Bs with a few Cs, or something. Since 4.0 is all As, 3.0 all Bs, etc.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-04-2009, 10:04 AM
Wow. I got a 2.9. Mostly because I can't do math to save my life and for some reason, they required English Majors to do it and computer programming anyway. I couldn't find a job either, after college, so I temped. At some pretty awful places, too. Then I taught school.

My major was Creative Writing (about as useful as Terez's future degree and Camel's Drama undergrad ;) ). I've never gone on to grad school, mostly because I don't want to write what others tell me to and Publish or Perish sucks.

I have never once considered suing the University Of Houston. Perhaps Sinistrum should, however. He went to law school there and they never found him a job.

How bout it, B? You gonna sue UH if you can't get a job after graduation?

JSUCamel
08-04-2009, 10:41 AM
Ironically, perhaps Camels and DT can back this up, its somewhat difficult to get a job as an IT guy or Engineer due to outsourcing and a ton of individuals that decided that Comp Science would be the way to go in the late 90s/early 00s.

Is that still correct?

We like that we're plural.

We think that there are plenty of jobs to go around. One of the problems in this economy right now is that, at least in the web design area, there are few companies hiring for full-time positions. Most are hiring contract/temp developers to do short-term work, usually to beef up the website to attract other "more necessary" people (like accountants, etc).

As far as marketability, we think going into computers/IT is a good idea, if you know what you're talking about. And even if you don't, you're still gonna impress people. Our boss at the real estate company where we work is kind of a moron. She's a CompSci grad from UIC, but she doesn't know jack shit about computers, insists on using IE6 and a number of other things. That's why they hired us to come in to do some work, ostensibly because she's overwhelmed with stuff (but really because she's an idiot).

Arts? Not so much. Our degree in Drama (and any humanities degree) gives us many, many skills that are highly desirable by employers -- but they don't see it that way.

When you go to school for a non-humanities degree (Business, Accounting, Marketing, Chemistry, Medicine, Graphic Design, Psychology, Epidemiology, etc), you're training for a profession or a career. You're training to be an accountant, a doctor, a psychiatrist, a web developer. People who have these degrees think in those terms: degree fields = careers.

But that's not true for the arts. The arts teach skills that are applicable across every discipline: thinking creatively, working under pressure for deadlines, working individually as well as within a group, taking direction well, taking criticism well, performing in front of people, showcasing final products. These are all things that employers desire, but they just see the name of the degree.

"Oh, a drama degree. We don't need an actor, we need a PR specialist."

...hello?

Crispin's Crispian
08-04-2009, 10:43 AM
It's certainly true that the motivated students will get more help, but it also depends entirely on your department and the career you choose.

As an undergrad, I was dead set on grad school in biology. I had excellent grades, great recc. letters from profs and others, did independent research projects, and was very passionate about the field. I applied to a bunch of schools...and got nothing.

Turns out that for graduate biology programs, you need to have a faculty sponsor within the department, one whom you're interesting in working with (ahem...for). I found that out way too late in the game, and certainly never learned it from my advisors. I still don't know exactly how I was supposed to win over some very busy professor at a school 1,000 miles away, all while trying to maintain my grades on a limited budget. :/

By the time I probably could have done it, my wife was already in a three-year grad program and I had to have a full-time job.

Crispin's Crispian
08-04-2009, 10:54 AM
We think that there are plenty of jobs to go around. One of the problems in this economy right now is that, at least in the web design area, there are few companies hiring for full-time positions. Most are hiring contract/temp developers to do short-term work, usually to beef up the website to attract other "more necessary" people (like accountants, etc).

It's true outside of web design, too, but mostly for programming and DBA work. I've seen a ton of contract jobs for programmers and DBAs (and web design), and the more permanent jobs are usually systems/business analysts.

As far as marketability, we think going into computers/IT is a good idea, if you know what you're talking about. And even if you don't, you're still gonna impress people. Our boss at the real estate company where we work is kind of a moron. She's a CompSci grad from UIC, but she doesn't know jack shit about computers, insists on using IE6 and a number of other things. That's why they hired us to come in to do some work, ostensibly because she's overwhelmed with stuff (but really because she's an idiot).

The more I work (ostensibly) in IT, the more I think I should have studied something else in graduate school. I learned a lot of awesome big picture stuff, but it will help me more if I ever become a CIO than it would to find a job now. To find a good job now, I need hard, specific skills (T-SQL, php, C#, Oracle, Business Objects, Cognos, blah blah). I didn't get any of that in grad school.

JSUCamel
08-04-2009, 11:38 AM
The more I work (ostensibly) in IT, the more I think I should have studied something else in graduate school. I learned a lot of awesome big picture stuff, but it will help me more if I ever become a CIO than it would to find a job now. To find a good job now, I need hard, specific skills (T-SQL, php, C#, Oracle, Business Objects, Cognos, blah blah). I didn't get any of that in grad school.

The key that most people seem to miss is that you should never settle for JUST what you learn in college. You need to research things and learn things on your own as well.

I can honestly say I learned pretty much nothing useful in most of my college classes. They tend to teach theory, and in order to get (and keep) a job, you need application. The upside to that is the theory is generally applicable for all applications.

For instance, if I want to loop through an array of items, the theory would look like this:


1. Get list
2. Get next item.
3. Display next item.
4. Go back to #2 until list is complete


In PHP it might look like this:


$list = array("red", "blue", "orange", "green");
foreach($list as $item)
echo $item


In Javascript, it might look like this:


var list = ["red", "blue", "orange", "green"];
for(var i = 0; i < list.length; i++){
document.write(list[i]);
}


So you see, in each case, the theoretical process for getting something done (the algorithm) works. That's what they teach you in college.

I learned how to loop through a list, how database structure is set up, how to sort a list, how to structure if-then statements, how to solve problems using existing knowledge. But my school never taught me PHP or Javascript (it was all C++ back then). I had to learn that on my own.

Unfortunately, on a resume, "database theory" doesn't look nearly as good as "four years of DBA experience".

Too many people go to college and expect all of the knowledge necessary to get a job to be handed to them, and that's simply not the case. You want to get that job? Do something above and beyond the classes you're taking. Every single computer science major has to take Database 401 (or its equivalent), so why should I give a shit if you passed that class with an A?

Build an application that utilizes a database to spit out Wheel of Time trivia and book quotes, and I'll be a lot more impressed.

Every drama major has to take Directing I at my alma mater, but so what? That doesn't make them qualified to get a directing job anywhere.

Get off your ass and put together a production or three on your own and direct them without being hand-held by the professors, and then I'll be impressed.

So yes, a lot of the things you learn in college, especially grad school, are great if you want to be management or CIO or whatever, but as far as actually getting a job? Not so great. You gotta do something else, take specific training for certain skills or teach yourself.

GonzoTheGreat
08-04-2009, 11:46 AM
how to sort a list,Bubble sort! :p

Ozymandias
08-04-2009, 12:27 PM
When you go to school for a non-humanities degree (Business, Accounting, Marketing, Chemistry, Medicine, Graphic Design, Psychology, Epidemiology, etc), you're training for a profession or a career. You're training to be an accountant, a doctor, a psychiatrist, a web developer. People who have these degrees think in those terms: degree fields = careers.

But that's not true for the arts. The arts teach skills that are applicable across every discipline: thinking creatively, working under pressure for deadlines, working individually as well as within a group, taking direction well, taking criticism well, performing in front of people, showcasing final products. These are all things that employers desire, but they just see the name of the degree.

I agree that humanities degrees are applicable across fields, but the idea that someone with a degree in finance has no applicable skills elsewhere is silly. They're not locked in either. And while its true that creative thinking and writing ability and all that is valuable in a workplace, if I'm hiring for a position somewhere, I want someone who has some experience through education. I'm gonna risk that they can come to think and write creatively, since there is a much better chance of that being true than of a creative writing major all of a sudden becoming proficient at accounting. Speaking from experience, liberal arts majors are liberal arts majors because they didn't want to or didn't qualify for other things. And one signifies disinterest and the other incompetence, neither of which are attractive qualities for potential employers in those fields.

And this comes from someone with a degree that tops all others in practical uselessness: Assyriology.

Whoa, she considers a 2.7 to be good? Wow. She gunna go faaaaaaarrrr. Isn't a 2.7 like, all C's or worse?

Technically, its precisely an 80. 3.0 is a B. 3.3 is a B+. 2.7 or so is a B-. She's thoroughly mediocre.

Matoyak
08-04-2009, 02:14 PM
Well, I'm sitting at a 3.5 with 4 Bs and 4 As. (According to my community college dual credit transcript) I flat out didn't try in economics (got a b), had trouble with government because I didn't get a certain paper turned in on time due to high school absence due to tennis, band, and then tennis again. (I was gone on the day the prof visited and announced the major grade paper, as well as for the next few block schedule days, and the day it was supposed to be turned in) [I know, still probably my fault for not checking, but still an annoying reason to get a B]. The other two Bs are from english classes. I suck at english, especially grammer. (If anyone's curious [most likely not] my As are all from math courses. College Alg, Stats, Precal/Trig, and Cal I. Almost got an A+ in Cal1. Def my best subject)

Anyways, my point was, I just kinda assumed 2.7 was waaay low due to my 3.5 with half as and half bs. ~shrug~

Zanguini
08-04-2009, 02:28 PM
The average gpa for grads is in the 2.6-2.8 depending on the school and region.
So she was an average student. yipee.Perhaps she would like an average job.

Ozymandias
08-04-2009, 03:38 PM
The average gpa for grads is in the 2.6-2.8 depending on the school and region.
So she was an average student. yipee.Perhaps she would like an average job.

I've got a 3.3 at a good university, and I'd kill a beach full of adorable baby seals by bludgeoning them with a litter of golden retriever puppies if it got me an average job

Davian93
08-04-2009, 04:58 PM
I've got a 3.3 at a good university, and I'd kill a beach full of adorable baby seals by bludgeoning them with a litter of golden retriever puppies if it got me an average job

That is signature worthy...

Terez
08-04-2009, 05:31 PM
I have a few Fs and a couple of Ds on my transcript (for various reasons), and my GPA is still a 3.14.

And Mutt, your story is exactly the kind of thing that Im talking about. Often, in the music department, even the talented and hard-working kids have absolutely no clue what it takes to get into grad school.

Frenzy
08-04-2009, 08:15 PM
I have a few Fs and a couple of Ds on my transcript (for various reasons), and my GPA is still a 3.14.
i suddenly have an urge for pie.

and not just to throw in the face of the idiot whom this thread is about.

Terez
08-04-2009, 10:16 PM
i suddenly have an urge for pie.

and not just to throw in the face of the idiot whom this thread is about.
Yah, I had the same thought when I was filling out an application for the school yesterday. I wanted to put 3.14159 for my GPA.

Neilbert
08-05-2009, 11:07 AM
You should have written π.