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Gilshalos Sedai
08-05-2009, 02:48 PM
of opening yet another can of Girl V. Boy worms, I'm posting this here. (http://kateharding.net/2007/04/14/on-being-a-no-name-blogger-using-her-real-name/)


I don't 100% agree with everything she's posting, since men get harassed, too, and the same thing happens for racial slurs, but I thought it'd be a good discussion.

Crispin's Crispian
08-05-2009, 03:39 PM
I don't read a lot of blogs, or comments to articles and the like, but even in my limited experience I understand where she's coming from. It's not just that there are trolls who degrade and threaten women. It's that there are so damn many, and that it's almost become a running gag on some sites.

I'm tempted to say it's because there are more bored teenage boys frequenting the Internet than anyone else, and that they've plugged into a misogynistic meme even if they don't realize how serious it is. But I'm not sure I can say that. It's almost more like the Internet is the overt version of what is very subtle in real life.

Brita
08-05-2009, 03:41 PM
I must live in a different part of the universe than most. I don't mean to be glib or dismissive, but I just can't relate to this stuff.

I don't experience it in my life. I rarely ever have, and when I have it is so rare and ludicrous it is actually more funny than insulting.

The closest I have been to being offended is when Sini uses the term "shrill" when debating with a female here at TL. :p

I don't know Gil- I just can't relate to it. And I am thankful for that. It's not that I don't believe it exists, it's just that I think I am very fortunate with my life experiences and have nothing much to contribute to this topic. Of course, I only post here at TL, and for good reason.

Uno
08-05-2009, 03:52 PM
Well, she's basically right, of course. Anyone who's ever read the "readers' comments" section at the end of news articles knows that of the first five posts dealing with any woman under any circumstances, the vulgar name-calling, especially featuring charges of sexual promiscuity, is going to be present in at least one post.

What's especially disturbing to me is the extent to which a great number of younger women do this kind of thing themselves, though. I don't know how many times I've heard young girls say that this or that of their acquaintances is a "slut" and so on for no other reason than that they dislike her.

Crispin's Crispian
08-05-2009, 03:52 PM
I must live in a different part of the universe than most. I don't mean to be glib or dismissive, but I just can't relate to this stuff.

I don't experience it in my life. I rarely ever have, and when I have it is so rare and ludicrous it is actually more funny than insulting.

The closest I have been to being offended is when Sini uses the term "shrill" when debating with a female here at TL. :p

I don't know Gil- I just can't relate to it. And I am thankful for that. It's not that I don't believe it exists, it's just that I think I am very fortunate with my life experiences and have nothing much to contribute to this topic. Of course, I only post here at TL, and for good reason.

Here's a decent set of examples for you, Brita. Obviously some of the comments are NSFW.

Ebaum's World Photo and comments (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/pictures/view/80628299/)

Even with all the sympathetic and otherwise neutral comments, look how many misogynistic comments there are. Some of these people probably think they're just being funny, and maybe tasteless.

Belazamon
08-05-2009, 03:52 PM
It boggles my mind that people actually think like that. Seriously. I know that they do, I simply can't comprehend how they can.

I guess I always just assume by default that it's idiots who think they're actually humorous.

Ivhon
08-05-2009, 03:54 PM
Interesting. I'm writing a research paper on the opposite. Perhaps boys are turning the internet into a misogynistic playground because traditional media is decidedly misandronistic?

I sincerely wish they wouldn't, because I think that the battle of the sexes is terribly harmful - particularly to children. But there is a lot of male anger out there and quite a bit of it is understandable.

EDIT: Just read it through more thoroughly. And while I do not approve of using sexist language I take issue with the assertion that women are targets just because they are women. There is an equally long list of "you condone this because you don't do anything about it" that can be applied to women - some examples:

-Every time you watch Sex in the City and say "you go girl!"
-Every time you make a sperm donor joke "Men are only good for one thing...and sometimes not even that"
-Every time you infer that men are insensitive brutes that can't communicate and are one wrong look away from violent explosion
-Every time you write a blog that infers that the fifth guy might be the one that stalks you and hate rapes you

Every time you do any of these - or a host of other things - you contribute to the demonization of men and malehood. Nor should we forget that some of the most extreme and well publicized cases of cyberbullying are women against women.

So no, I dont think it is a misogynistic thing. I think it is an immature, purile thing that tries to use the most damaging language possible no matter who the target and no matter who the perp.

Sinistrum
08-05-2009, 04:00 PM
I don't agree with the article at all. Is online bullying against women occuring? Sure. Does it account for even a slim majority of all online bullying or even the most vicious? Absolutely not. If there is a topic that can be bullied over it will be, if for no other reason then because its the interent and therefore anonymous, people can get away with it by and large. Some of the most vicious stuff I've encountered online has had nothing to do with gender.

Furthermore, I think this idea that passive forms of sexism feed into this problem is patently absurd. The level of hatred it takes to be a true misogynist and thereby engage in this kind of behavior has absolutely zero to do with a person's perceived popular acceptance of it as an idea. That takes a personal trauma or series to create and feed. In point of fact, I'd say the less popular it is, the more it reinforces their own sense of superiority and victimhood by the "evil women" thereby fanning its flames even further. Attempting to attach significance to things such as mildly sexist jokes or use of the word bitch in helping to create and foster true misogyny is just a means of attaching collective guilt to everyone with a y chromosome for the spiteful acts of a few nutters.

Sei'taer
08-05-2009, 04:21 PM
Of course, I only post here at TL, and for good reason.

OMG!!! Some unknown female kicked my ASS at scrabble! Brita, I swear I thought it was you! I'm actually glad to know though. I knew it had to be a man kicking my butt, no way could a chick play a game that requires a certain amount of intelligence that well.

Nevermind all the snarky comments I made to you. I didn't realize it was someone else who had stolen your name on FB.

JSUCamel
08-05-2009, 04:33 PM
Well.. uh, I read the article/blog, and I didn't get the impression that she was saying that all online bullying was against women, nor did she say that it accounted for the majority of cyber bullying. She did, however, point out that many people post these horrible, vicious comments, using words that you probably never utter in public or to a woman's face, simply because they're women.

Case in point: think about how Dav describes Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter and how he describes O'Reilly, Olbermann and Karl Rove.

Now, in Dav's defense, these are incredibly idiotic women who say things that should never get released into public, but the point is that the terms that most of us use to describe Palin and Coulter are much more offensive and derogatory than those we use to describe the despicable men that we see every day. I mean, people say that Coulter is a stuck up bitch who just needs a good assfucking with a paper sack over her head and duct tape over her mouth. But we never say Bill O'Reilly deserves to be assraped in Gitmo and fed rat feces -- no, what we say about people like Karl Rove and Bill O'Reilly is that they're assholes.

Big whoop.

So what the woman is saying isn't that all bullying is misogynistic, nor is she saying that bullying against women is the dominant form of bullying, but rather that insults toward women, for some reason or another, seem to be much harsher and violent than insults toward a man who does/says the same thing.

I'm not sure how accurate a declaration that is or that I particularly agree with her, but I do see where she's coming from and I think I summarized fairly well what she was trying to say.

Terez
08-05-2009, 04:38 PM
My stepmom is retarded, but she always wins at Scrabble.

Ivhon
08-05-2009, 04:45 PM
Well.. uh, I read the article/blog, and I didn't get the impression that she was saying that all online bullying was against women, nor did she say that it accounted for the majority of cyber bullying. She did, however, point out that many people post these horrible, vicious comments, using words that you probably never utter in public or to a woman's face, simply because they're women.

Case in point: think about how Dav describes Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter and how he describes O'Reilly, Olbermann and Karl Rove.

Now, in Dav's defense, these are incredibly idiotic women who say things that should never get released into public, but the point is that the terms that most of us use to describe Palin and Coulter are much more offensive and derogatory than those we use to describe the despicable men that we see every day. I mean, people say that Coulter is a stuck up bitch who just needs a good assfucking with a paper sack over her head and duct tape over her mouth. But we never say Bill O'Reilly deserves to be assraped in Gitmo and fed rat feces -- no, what we say about people like Karl Rove and Bill O'Reilly is that they're assholes.

Big whoop.

So what the woman is saying isn't that all bullying is misogynistic, nor is she saying that bullying against women is the dominant form of bullying, but rather that insults toward women, for some reason or another, seem to be much harsher and violent than insults toward a man who does/says the same thing.

I'm not sure how accurate a declaration that is or that I particularly agree with her, but I do see where she's coming from and I think I summarized fairly well what she was trying to say.

How much of that hateful language is becuase there is no male equivalent? By that I mean there is nothing you can call a man that compares to "cunt." Its not because the words dont exist - after all, as you know, a word is just some letters that represent a sound. It is the symbolic meaning ascribed to the word. Of course there are two ways of looking at it. 1) The intent of the (presumably) man using that word for it to hurt and be derogatory. 2) The choice the woman makes to accept and declare that the word is unacceptable.

Now, since 1) works in both directions (i.e. a woman can call me a "cocksucker" with all the vitriol she can muster) and yet there are no words that affect men in the same way that certain words affect women, I have to assume that the choice along the way to 2) became operative.

In effect, its rigging the game to say "we the oppressed class choose this this this and this appellation to be hateful and *ist. However, you the oppressor class cannot be the victim of this as much as we can because we don't accept that there is hate language that applies to you."

If that makes sense...

Terez
08-05-2009, 04:52 PM
Ivhon, there's a reason why there is no male equivalent, and that was her point, I think...

Birgitte
08-05-2009, 04:56 PM
Yeah, what Camel said.

Belazamon
08-05-2009, 05:02 PM
How much of that hateful language is becuase there is no male equivalent? By that I mean there is nothing you can call a man that compares to "cunt."Obviously you've never been called a fundark.

(C'mon. Any 30 Rock watchers out there? Bueller?)

JSUCamel
08-05-2009, 05:12 PM
If that makes sense...

It makes perfect sense and as terez noted, that was kind of what this woman was saying.

However, I'm not sure that simply not calling a woman a cunt is going to solve anything, which is why I'm not sure I agree with her proposed solutions. It's easy to cry "misogynist!" and much harder to turn it around and claim that a woman is a man-hater, because half of the criteria for misogyny don't have an equivalent for men.

Ivhon
08-05-2009, 05:15 PM
It makes perfect sense and as terez noted, that was kind of what this woman was saying.

However, I'm not sure that simply not calling a woman a cunt is going to solve anything, which is why I'm not sure I agree with her proposed solutions. It's easy to cry "misogynist!" and much harder to turn it around and claim that a woman is a man-hater, because half of the criteria for misogyny don't have an equivalent for men.

yeah...thats what I was trying to get at. Ill post my paper in this thread if/when I ever get done.

Brita
08-05-2009, 06:06 PM
OMG!!! Some unknown female kicked my ASS at scrabble! Brita, I swear I thought it was you! I'm actually glad to know though. I knew it had to be a man kicking my butt, no way could a chick play a game that requires a certain amount of intelligence that well.

Nevermind all the snarky comments I made to you. I didn't realize it was someone else who had stolen your name on FB.

lol- smart ass! I'm talking blogging and/or message boards, not networking sites. FB is different, it is my friends, not anonymous people. And y'all didn't become a FB friend until I considered you a friend through TL. Yes, you can feel privileged.

My stepmom is retarded, but she always wins at Scrabble.

Did you just imply that I'm retarded :p

Crispin's Crispian
08-05-2009, 06:23 PM
To me it has more to do with the spirit of the comments in question, just like Camel said.

Calling someone a "cunt" or using specific terms about rape or derogatory female sexuality is not the same as calling a guy an asshole or an idiot. It sure seems like comments that demean women because they are women are much more common than comments that demean men because they are men.

I'm not sure the mainstream "beer oaf" model of men is really relevant, here. I agree with that point, but it doesn't diminish the misogyny on the Web.

Brita
08-05-2009, 07:10 PM
Reading her post again, the part I agree most with is her plea to the good men to say something when the little twirps and/or truly misogynist start spewing their vile comments.

Women crying foul only fan the flames of these morons. It takes men to step up to the plate and put these boys in their place. In the workplace, online, with their buddies, with their sons...that's how the perception will change.

Davian93
08-05-2009, 07:22 PM
Now, in Dav's defense, these are incredibly idiotic women who say things that should never get released into public, but the point is that the terms that most of us use to describe Palin and Coulter are much more offensive and derogatory than those we use to describe the despicable men that we see every day. I mean, people say that Coulter is a stuck up bitch who just needs a good assfucking with a paper sack over her head and duct tape over her mouth. But we never say Bill O'Reilly deserves to be assraped in Gitmo and fed rat feces -- no, what we say about people like Karl Rove and Bill O'Reilly is that they're assholes.

I'd like to think I'm equal opportunity in my hatred of the above individuals...other than Olberman (I still like him from his ESPN days). All talking heads are pretty much asses though. And I'm not sure but I tend to stay away from words like "cunt" or "bitch" or "slut" or "whore" or "tramp" or any other deliberately insulting of womanhood if at all possible.

I agree that I probably go off about Palin more than most anyone else and Coulter is right up there (mainly for her hypocrisy of "every woman should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen except me" viewpoint). But I go off on O'Reilly with the same fervor...or Glenn Beck for that matter.

Sei'taer
08-05-2009, 09:56 PM
I'd like to think I'm equal opportunity in my hatred of the above individuals...other than Olberman (I still like him from his ESPN days). All talking heads are pretty much asses though. And I'm not sure but I tend to stay away from words like "cunt" or "bitch" or "slut" or "whore" or "tramp" or any other deliberately insulting of womanhood if at all possible.

I agree that I probably go off about Palin more than most anyone else and Coulter is right up there (mainly for her hypocrisy of "every woman should be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen except me" viewpoint). But I go off on O'Reilly with the same fervor...or Glenn Beck for that matter.

The only person I've ever referred to as a cunt is Barney Frank...because he is one. Usually I'm much more original than that...

Frenzy
08-06-2009, 12:46 AM
i feel like i should say something profound. But like Silent Bob in Clerks II, "I got nothing."

yks 6nnetu hing
08-06-2009, 02:52 AM
purile
that's puErile.


I kind of-sort of agree with the article in that women do tend to get more of a bad response whenever they open their mouths. What I find most baffling is when a woman-ripping argument is finished with "and she's ugly too" - what's that got to do with anything? And I've hard this one coming from males as well as females.

Then again, only women perceived as "unattractive" seem to have any chance of social (read: political/scientific) success - think Margaret Thatcher, Tarja Halonen, Madeleine Albright, Angela Merkel... Hillary Clinton definitely has more credibility than Sarah Palin.

My dad has a.. let's call it an idee-fixe that the current society is a feminine society because there's the understanding that things should be solved by diplomacy instead of bludgeoning and table manners matter. That is one of the most inane demagougery ever. Apparently it's feminine to want prosperity and peace. And therefore it should follow that it's masculine to want chaos and messyness - well that's simply not true! The modern society might be what he calls "feminine" but a female still has a hell of a lot harder time of gaining any (political) success in that society and by that alone the society certainly isn't "feminine". Hell, in my high-school, which was a talented kid's school, there were 3 girls to one boy, in university even the "male" subjects like math, physics and IT were split pretty much 50-50, and for the rest you'd have to look for the guys like they were a needle in a haystack. And yet, when an expert's opinion is asked, it's 7 times out of 10 a man (or so it feels to me). Sometimes I wonder why that is. I mean, of course society dictates, and in most cases hormones/nature helps dictate too, that women take care of the offspring and therefore simply don't have the time to become more expert at their chosen subject. But seriously? That can't be the ONLY reason, now can it?

cottillion
08-06-2009, 05:26 AM
I do agree that a woman on the internet is more likely to get a harsh response I think just do to the fact that the internet is dominated by immature teenage boys.
What this got me thinking is what makes one term more derogatory then another? What makes calling someone a cunt harsher then calling someone an asshole? I know if I call guy an asshole and a woman a cunt with equal vitriol then 9 times out of 10 the woman is going to be much more offended. While insults towards women tend to be harsher is it a result of the intentions behind the insults, a more emotional response attached to them by women or a mixture of the two?
Guys grow up taught to put their emotions aside and be manly men. They are taught not to show weakness which includes not being hurt be insults. This somewhat deadens the effects and makes them less derogatory.
Women on the other hand are brought up to be caring and emotional which means they are more likely to show the hurt from insults. This makes these terms seem much more harsh and in the end they actually are. Also, at least in my small town upbringing, boys are taught that girls are delicate flowers to be protected. This makes these hurtful insults more common said from one woman to another then from guys.
This is also a reason I think why they are so common on the internet. Guys are repressed from saying these things in the real world so they tend to be overused under the anonymity of the internet. It's kind of like the kid that is repressed growing up by an overly protective parent and then goes wild when they get out from under their parents restrictions.

*Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I tend to write like I think which is fairly chaotic which often leads to troubles getting my point across.:o

JSUCamel
08-06-2009, 05:35 AM
*Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I tend to write like I think which is fairly chaotic which often leads to troubles getting my point across.:o

I get what you're saying, and you're certainly right (to an extent) about how the different genders are raised, but I'm not sure I agree with your stance on why it's so offensive to call a woman by these derogatory terms. Part of the reason a word like "cunt" is more offensive than "asshole" is that "cunt" is directly related to a female's anatomy -- it implies that female anatomy is something less than ideal, something disgusting and nasty that makes women unclean and to be avoided. An asshole is generic enough that it doesn't single out a gender as less than another.

cottillion
08-06-2009, 05:39 AM
I get what you're saying, and you're certainly right (to an extent) about how the different genders are raised, but I'm not sure I agree with your stance on why it's so offensive to call a woman by these derogatory terms. Part of the reason a word like "cunt" is more offensive than "asshole" is that "cunt" is directly related to a female's anatomy -- it implies that female anatomy is something less than ideal, something disgusting and nasty that makes women unclean and to be avoided. An asshole is generic enough that it doesn't single out a gender as less than another.
You can substitute calling a guy a dick instead of an asshole. Same general feeling just more specific to guys and still much less offensive then the female equivalent.

Davian93
08-06-2009, 07:36 AM
I dont think I've ever referred to a female as an "a$$hole" before as it is pretty much gender specific to men. I would tend to think terms like "pr!ck" and "d!ck" are also pretty gender specific and related to anatomy.

Used to be (back in the dark days of the 90s before PC and Gay Rights and enlightenment), that any guy that did something out of line, he was referred to as "queer" or a "f@ggot". Looking back, it is an incredibly rude and wrong word to use about someone regardless of their sexual orientation. Its almost the equivalent of using the N-word to describe someone these days.

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2009, 07:45 AM
Almost, but not quite, since the latter are allowed to marry nowadays.

Davian93
08-06-2009, 07:57 AM
Almost, but not quite, since the latter are allowed to marry nowadays.

Gay marriage is legal in my state, gonzo. And isn't it legal in your country too?

GonzoTheGreat
08-06-2009, 08:03 AM
Well, yes, but then ... we're weird that way. We have a tendency to say things like "why not, they're not bothering anyone", and then actually putting that into law too.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-06-2009, 08:16 AM
ooh, catfight!

Dav vs. Gonzo



a little like Peter vs. the big chicken, only which is which?

Zanguini
08-06-2009, 08:34 AM
I have a slightly different view on this. I believe it has nothing to do whether a person is a man or a women. Some people, be they man or woman, have extreme difficulty in dealing with criticism, derrogatory comments, or anything that doesnt crap rainbows. However there are people who are extremely hard to rattle, to these people to make an impact you have to up your ante. Now being online you've really know idea who your audience is. You may think you know. But really you dont. I think i am telling this to the people who have so far read this thread. But some lurker ive never heard of might be reading it, or Tam. The point is since you dont know your audience you are going to err on the side of you know what will get the biggest reaction from the most people. And when it comes to bullying once you find someone who is really affected by your comments you keep pushing on their buttons. Like Lisa Simpson said bullys smell fear. In the end you can either get used to it or extend your index finger and aim for the button on the bottom right corner of your monitor.

Ivhon
08-06-2009, 08:36 AM
But some lurker ive never heard of might be reading it, or Tam.

Tam being a lurker you have heard of...

Zanguini
08-06-2009, 08:39 AM
thats true enough

Brita
08-06-2009, 08:46 AM
Cottillion- I was thinking exactly along the same lines as you.

What made me think of it was this:

Case in point: think about how Dav describes Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter and how he describes O'Reilly, Olbermann and Karl Rove.

imo- Dav expresses his disgust equally for both genders, but it is our perception that when he bashes a women it is inherently more hurtful than when he bashes a man. His comments towards a women are remembered as being more harsh, when actually they weren't. That is the delicate flower syndrome. While I agree that women are more vulnerable to certain hurtful comments, especially when they broach the area of rape- I believe that there is definitely a degree of perceived offence involved with the other comments.

I was raised in a household in which my father did not mince words whether he was speaking to his son or his daughters. He still doesn't. I appreciate that, and the consequence is I can deal with men, even if they are being crude and offensive, easier than I can deal with women and their cattiness and gossip.

I fear this next paragraph is going to get me into a world of trouble here at TL, but I'm going to say it anyway. The whole siren/furies thing. You don't see the guys on the board forming exclusive groups in which certain favoured guys are invited and others are notably not. It is a girl thing, it is subtle, but it can be hurtful. People becoming near-sisters or bonded or wolf bothers etc. is different because it is simply reflective of the relationships formed here- and it is all positive. Nobody is excluded, anyone is welcome to form friendships and label them however they like. But I was disappointed to see the sorority-like thread here in non-WoT. I guess Naz'z Friend of the Flame might be similar thing, but it doesn't seem so exclusive and pointed.

And before there are any snide comments about the fact that I'm just upset that I didn't get invited, that isn't the case. I teach my daughter to include everyone, and have actually chastised her for starting with the "who's popular and who's not" nonsense, reminding her how hurtful it can be to girls not included.

OK- let me have it. ~~bracing myself~~

Davian93
08-06-2009, 08:52 AM
OK- let me have it. ~~bracing myself~~

Giggity.

Brita
08-06-2009, 08:54 AM
Giggity.

I am trying to be serious here, stop making me laugh.

Davian93
08-06-2009, 09:04 AM
I am trying to be serious here, stop making me laugh.

~ducks head~

Sorry Aes Sedai:D

Gilshalos Sedai
08-06-2009, 09:30 AM
I fear this next paragraph is going to get me into a world of trouble here at TL, but I'm going to say it anyway. The whole siren/furies thing. You don't see the guys on the board forming exclusive groups in which certain favoured guys are invited and others are notably not. It is a girl thing, it is subtle, but it can be hurtful. People becoming near-sisters or bonded or wolf bothers etc. is different because it is simply reflective of the relationships formed here- and it is all positive. Nobody is excluded, anyone is welcome to form friendships and label them however they like. But I was disappointed to see the sorority-like thread here in non-WoT. I guess Naz'z Friend of the Flame might be similar thing, but it doesn't seem so exclusive and pointed.

WELL... as an aside, let me explain this. A long time ago in galaxy far far away, Moonshadow, Frenzy and I had jobs where we could sit in a (functioning) chat room all day. SBX wandered in and out. SBX once said (and I paraphrase since it was a very long time ago), "The three of you sit in here like Greek Furies, ready to pounce on the unwary."

Like most jokes, it got out of hand. And at the time, there were only really about 7 girls on the boards and we were feeling distinctly outnumbered. Hell, at the time, I was the OLDEST woman on TL. And I ain't that old. So, the three of us ran with it. And sorta made it an incentive for the other girls to stick around. There's a reason you have to be an Ancient or above to be one. Also, it was in the middle of the fad where the few girls who were on TL were "bonding warders," left and right. The three of us were very irritated at that trend because a) the "Aes Sedai" were often pulling the "save me, big strong man" BS with their Warders in arguments (probably because as there were only a handful of girls on here, we WERE feeling outnumbered), and b) for whatever reason, the three of us would not bond anyone else. (MS has Uno, I have Bryan, and Frenzy has the Dark Father.) So, instead of Warders, we gave titles to the guys who kept frequenting Chat, as a running joke. GLotD frequently picked fights with Frenzy and me for the fun of it. He became the Whipping Boy. Dav was always playing bartender in chat, so he's the Fetcher. I think we gave SBX a title, I just don't remember it. Dai'Shan was the Gleeman for awhile, since he's a musician.

On a fansite about a series of novels in a matriarchal universe, it made sense.

It was a really dumb game, but the titles kind of stuck. Then one day when Zae was depressed, I called her a Junior Fury. She was very happy with that and it cheered her up. So, she made Ancient and I named her Siren.

Like I said in the other thread, if a guy wants to be a Siren, or a Valkyrie, he can. (I haven't thought of a male group of demi-gods, if anyone has, let me know.) But it was a way to have a customized title beyond Hero of the Horn. A way to show you'd been here a LONG TIME, at least for the three of us.

And when the three of us were together at Frenzy's BBQ last year, there jokes about the Space/Time Continuum stopping since we were in the same place at the same time.

No one really takes it seriously. At least I don't think so.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-06-2009, 09:36 AM
I fear this next paragraph is going to get me into a world of trouble here at TL, but I'm going to say it anyway. The whole siren/furies thing. You don't see the guys on the board forming exclusive groups in which certain favoured guys are invited and others are notably not. It is a girl thing, it is subtle, but it can be hurtful. People becoming near-sisters or bonded or wolf bothers etc. is different because it is simply reflective of the relationships formed here- and it is all positive. Nobody is excluded, anyone is welcome to form friendships and label them however they like. But I was disappointed to see the sorority-like thread here in non-WoT. I guess Naz'z Friend of the Flame might be similar thing, but it doesn't seem so exclusive and pointed.

And before there are any snide comments about the fact that I'm just upset that I didn't get invited, that isn't the case. I teach my daughter to include everyone, and have actually chastised her for starting with the "who's popular and who's not" nonsense, reminding her how hurtful it can be to girls not included.
firstly: but it IS a friendship thing. I consider myself good on- AND off-TL friends with Ish and Zae even though with Zae there's some... water under the bridge. Likewise we all get along very well with Gil, Moony and Frenzy (who in turn have been friends for, what, a decade?). And B lives with Gil - of course they're friends! Not to mention that B is fun in and of herself too, of course.

edit: or is this because I've been gone for so long, come back and poof: instant acceptance over some others who have joined and contributed while I've been gone? if so, I apologise. Although I'm not sure how I can change that...

secondly: oh come on! there are several sometimes overlapping cliques here at TL. Of course, not all of those are "Official" (read: obvious) but they're still there. There are the "liberal" Europeans, the rednecks, the Canucks, the "conservative" Americans, the TCA and chat crowd, the people with imaginary couches and fences, the wild HCFFs and the mainly non-wot posting people... I could go on. Most of these are formed based on individual likes and dislikes and time spent together. One TL'er might be in more than one of these sub-groups but never in all of them. To be all-inclusive would require having multiple personalities. Besides which there are certain posters who don't like certain other posters but still hang out at TL in general - would you force people who don't like each other to be in the same sub-group?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-06-2009, 09:44 AM
And Brita, sweetie, having been in a sorority, I can assure you, the Furies/Sirens/Valkyries are nothing like one. ;)

Brita
08-06-2009, 10:08 AM
Thanks for ther back story Gil- it does put it into perspective. Just some things to consider:

No one really takes it seriously. At least I don't think so.
Those included usually don't worry too much about it, but those left out may not take it so lightly.

So, the three of us ran with it. And sorta made it an incentive for the other girls to stick around. There's a reason you have to be an Ancient or above to be one.
Ironically, this would have done the opposite for me, actually. As a virgin poster, feeling very timid when I first started here, this type of thing would have made me feel less welcome.

oh come on! there are several sometimes overlapping cliques here at TL. Of course, not all of those are "Official" (read: obvious) but they're still there.
Of course there are. But when a clique formalizes and then begins to send out special invitations to a select few, obstensibly excluding others, then it is more than just a natural gathering together of like-minded people.

Besides which there are certain posters who don't like certain other posters but still hang out at TL in general - would you force people who don't like each other to be in the same sub-group?

Ummm...no? Why would I? I would prefer no official "sub-groups". We know who gets along, who doesn't, who has special friendships, who has running jokes, who has running fights etc. And these aren't concrete. That's what I love about TL, the ever changing subtleties and dynamics.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-06-2009, 10:10 AM
Uh... We're not official.

Brita
08-06-2009, 10:14 AM
Uh... We're not official.

I wasn't really speaking directly to the Sirens et al. group, but to YKS comment of "Forcing" people into sub groups. How do you force someone into somethig that is not official or concrete?

Ivhon
08-06-2009, 10:17 AM
Ummm...no? Why would I? I would prefer no official "sub-groups". We know who gets along, who doesn't, who has special friendships, who has running jokes, who has running fights etc. And these aren't concrete. That's what I love about TL, the ever changing subtleties and dynamics.

Me = unattached crazy psychotic unbonded warder for 8+ years now (wouldnt take a bond if it were offered...which it never has).

Not that I wasn't part of a little clique of cohorts way back when, but we didn't have an official name (unless there was some exasperated appellation from Uno on the Ancients' board that we could not see). Those of us who remain seem to be fairly unattached.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-06-2009, 10:22 AM
How do you force someone into somethig that is not official or concrete?

this is probably too little connected to the particular topic but one of the saddest stories I've ever heard in my life was a mother saying that she forced her son to go out and walk around the block because the son only liked to read and was bullied by other kids - she thought that if the son hung out outside enough then it would all be alright.

It doesn't work like that with kids and it certainly doesn't work with adults - hence why I used the word "force" there, because to me this whole social sub-groups thing is simply not forcable.

edit: spelling... and sentence structure

Davian93
08-06-2009, 10:43 AM
I think we all categorize people into certain subsets just by human nature whether we realize we're doing it or not.

TL, for example, has a large liberal to super liberal (from the American perspective) contingent but still has a fervent (and well-educated) conservative branch. Thus, in my head, I can usually anticipate who's gonna post what type of response to a thread I start.

Crispin's Crispian
08-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Me = unattached crazy psychotic unbonded warder for 8+ years now (wouldnt take a bond if it were offered...which it never has).

Not that I wasn't part of a little clique of cohorts way back when, but we didn't have an official name (unless there was some exasperated appellation from Uno on the Ancients' board that we could not see). Those of us who remain seem to be fairly unattached.
The difference, I think Ivhon, is that we weren't exclusionary. At one time or other we had eight or nine people in Yahoo conversations, all from TL. If we'd known anyone else's Yahoo ID, we probably would have invited them. But you're right. The closest attachment any of us have had was you and JD, but that was also more of a running joke. Or was it? ~raises eyebrow~

Anyway, that got me thinking...

Ivhon
Jennifer
Cauthon
SDog
Karalynn
Aragorn
ST (once in a while)
Raen M'haal/Metalian

Who else was in that group?

Zanguini
08-06-2009, 11:44 AM
I wouldnt want to be bonded to anyone i hear enough voices in my head.

I believe it is human nature to subdivide larger groups into smaller ones. Americans tend to do this more than most people.

Ivhon
08-06-2009, 11:44 AM
*opens up YM....*

Frenzy popped in to chaperone quite a bit. SBX was in there some, I think. I feel like Ducky was there since I remember mocking him more than post count alone can count for. Kaernia.

*wanders off humming Cold Play*

Sei'taer
08-06-2009, 12:19 PM
The difference, I think Ivhon, is that we weren't exclusionary. At one time or other we had eight or nine people in Yahoo conversations, all from TL. If we'd known anyone else's Yahoo ID, we probably would have invited them. But you're right. The closest attachment any of us have had was you and JD, but that was also more of a running joke. Or was it? ~raises eyebrow~

Anyway, that got me thinking...

Ivhon
Jennifer
Cauthon
SDog
Karalynn
Aragorn
ST (once in a while)
Raen M'haal/Metalian

Who else was in that group?

Somebody had to work.

I think Frenzy was in and around a bit and so was Ducky...wasn't he? I wish he would come back for a bit.

I've been trying to get in touch with Aragorn but haven't heard anything. I remember someone saying Jalyn had nice legs and I decided whether Ivhon had nice legs or not I didn't want to verify it.

Ivhon
08-06-2009, 01:03 PM
Somebody had to work.

I think Frenzy was in and around a bit and so was Ducky...wasn't he? I wish he would come back for a bit.

I've been trying to get in touch with Aragorn but haven't heard anything. I remember someone saying Jalyn had nice legs and I decided whether Ivhon had nice legs or not I didn't want to verify it.

My legs are frequently complimented even if my belly is not.

Crispin's Crispian
08-06-2009, 01:18 PM
My legs are frequently complimented even if my belly is not.
That does seem familiar.

But who would have seen your legs?

Brita
08-06-2009, 01:33 PM
That does seem familiar.

But who would have seen your legs?

JD perhaps?

Sei'taer
08-06-2009, 01:36 PM
JD perhaps?

Wellllll, of course JD would have seen them, thats why I wondered about Ivhon having nice legs. If JD has nice legs then Ivhon would absolutely have to be the first to know. It would be impossible, impossible I tell you, for it to be any other way.

Ivhon
08-06-2009, 02:21 PM
Wellllll, of course JD would have seen them, thats why I wondered about Ivhon having nice legs. If JD has nice legs then Ivhon would absolutely have to be the first to know. It would be impossible, impossible I tell you, for it to be any other way.

You just confused JD.

Sei'taer
08-06-2009, 02:53 PM
You just confused JD.
Not as much as I confused you with Angela....uh.... I mean as much as Angela confused you. I mean, as much as you were confused when Angela came around...


Dammit, I told Sdog and Cauthon it wouldn't be funny if he ever found out...why did I let them talk me into that? Where's Cauthon when I need a scapegoat?

Crispin's Crispian
08-06-2009, 02:58 PM
Where's Cauthon when I need a scapegoat?

I'm right here...

Um...I mean...er...whoops?

Belazamon
08-06-2009, 04:29 PM
I've been trying to get in touch with Aragorn but haven't heard anything.That was Sean, right? Honestly I used to talk to him on AIM much more than I did here, so my memory might be a little fuzzy. Anyways if that's him, I've still got his AIM name - I haven't spoken with him in a long time, but I could easily throw him a line for y'all. :)

Birgitte
08-06-2009, 04:30 PM
You guys are weird.

Sei'taer
08-06-2009, 05:09 PM
That was Sean, right? Honestly I used to talk to him on AIM much more than I did here, so my memory might be a little fuzzy. Anyways if that's him, I've still got his AIM name - I haven't spoken with him in a long time, but I could easily throw him a line for y'all. :)

Yeah thats him. I have him on yahoo but I guess he doesn't use it anymore. I'd just like to know what he's up to. He'd just started college when he was posting here. If you wouldn't mind sending him something please do.

Sei'taer
08-06-2009, 05:11 PM
You guys are weird.

You have no idea. WWWwwwooooowwwWWW

Ivhon
08-06-2009, 11:47 PM
wOw

Birgitte
08-06-2009, 11:51 PM
Oooh, yeah. I have an idea. lol

JSUCamel
08-06-2009, 11:52 PM
Sorry, i don't care about Furies/Sirens (I think it's stupid and exclusionary, but hey, what do I know? I'm a misogynist, apparently).

imo- Dav expresses his disgust equally for both genders, but it is our perception that when he bashes a women it is inherently more hurtful than when he bashes a man. His comments towards a women are remembered as being more harsh, when actually they weren't.


Perhaps using Dav as an example wasn't as accurate a I originally believed.

Point is that when people bash women, they tend to use words that are much more offensive (like "cunt", "slut", "bitch", etc) than the words chosen when bashing other men ("asshole", "dick", etc).

And yes, yes, yes, the offensiveness is 100% perception.

I recall an earlier discussion with Marie about the definitions of various terms for gays. In my mind, a word like "dyke" isn't offensive, but Marie indicated that "dyke" is a rather offensive term to her.

Likewise, when Neilbert calls someone a retard, they might not get pissed off, but when Neilbert calls me a retard, that pisses me off. Why? Because I perceive the word "retard" in that context to be insulting to those who are less mentally able -- and certainly can't help their situation. In my mind, "retard" is much worse than "asshole", although many people would disagree. It's all perception.

Jalyn
08-06-2009, 11:54 PM
Apparently, I really needed to be reading this thread.

I had forgotten about Angela. I'm not sure if she was Ducky or me most of the time or which of us created the account. I think it was a communal account and multiple people posted as her.

You know, just because Ivhon and I shared a brain at one point, doesn't mean I've ever seen his legs :p. Anyway, I have nice legs? Cool. The only one that might have seen them is Cauthon, simply because he's the only one I ever met. It was summer, I could have been wearing shorts.

And, of course, the WoW. I actually tried to explain the theory of the wow to someone in real life once. It didn't go well. I don't think it works as well in speech as in text.

Ivhon
08-06-2009, 11:56 PM
Apparently, I really needed to be reading this thread.

I had forgotten about Angela. I'm not sure if she was Ducky or me most of the time or which of us created the account. I think it was a communal account and multiple people posted as her.

You know, just because Ivhon and I shared a brain at one point, doesn't mean I've ever seen his legs :p. Anyway, I have nice legs? Cool. The only one that might have seen them is Cauthon, simply because he's the only one I ever met. It was summer, I could have been wearing shorts.

And, of course, the WoW. I actually tried to explain the theory of the wow to someone in real life once. It didn't go well. I don't think it works as well in speech as in text.

no...I tried a good, "wwwwwwooooOoooowwwwww" out loud once...people thought I had a speech impediment (Look! Its K-K-K-K-Ken c-c-c-coming to k-k-k-kill me!)

Frenzy
08-07-2009, 01:18 AM
I'm right here...

Um...I mean...er...whoops?
you are NOT!!!!!






dammit

Frenzy
08-07-2009, 01:19 AM
wasn't Kaernia in there too? And Eclipse?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-07-2009, 08:17 AM
Bryan talks to Aragorn occasionally. He's a doctor now. A resident, I believe.

Sei'taer
08-07-2009, 08:24 AM
Bryan talks to Aragorn occasionally. He's a doctor now. A resident, I believe.

OMG...What a loser!

Brita
08-07-2009, 08:36 AM
edit: or is this because I've been gone for so long, come back and poof: instant acceptance over some others who have joined and contributed while I've been gone? if so, I apologise. Although I'm not sure how I can change that...


I kind of missed this when I originally read this post, but I'd like to address it:

That doesn't bother me at all. I hope that if I disappeared for a couple of years and the re-appeared that I would be remembered and welcomed warmly too.

And I have always found TL to be a very welcoming place, so there is no insecurity about previous friendships and other's long history. No need to apologise for that :D

Originally posted by Sei:OMG...What a loser!

lol- Sei, you're hilarious.

Zaela Sedai
08-07-2009, 08:38 AM
Wow, didn't expect something that's been around for like 5 years to have been an issue now.... To be honest I think new posters should feel *somewhat* on the outside for a little while, I know I did. You have to work your way up "through the ranks" and of course there some people who are better friends then others... but there are SO many "groups" here. Most of us cross over into all of them lol.

And like its been said, some of us are just REALLY good friends... some of us been through a LOT together, good and bad (and back to good!), and its only natural that this kind of stuff happens. Its fun, that's all. TL isn't your average message board and I think its the most welcoming I've ever seen really...

Zaela Sedai
08-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Hrmm... that came off snarfy... I love you Brita like the water filter!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sei'taer
08-07-2009, 08:50 AM
~old dude, whiskey and smokes voice~

Back in my day you had to scratch and claw for everything you got. You had to stand up to the power of Frenzy, Uno, t'soXXXXXX (don't say that name), Sini, Gil, Bela (he used to be scary), Firseal, and a lot of others. It was a tough, tough road, but some of us made it and some just didn't have the guts to stick it out. I was one with guts, so was SDog and Ivhon and Jalyn. We banded together, younglings fighting the online worlds. Were we badasses? Naw...we were just tough enough, and Ivhon just had a good enough grip to hang on and drag himself through on our coattails. Thats why he's so messed up now...he's seen things, things that a guy like him can't put behind him, y'know? Lifes hard out here. Ya gotta buck up and have some balls. Suck it up and dig deep...way up in there wheres it's itchy, and you can make it kid. I made it and look and me. I'm not weird or screwed up or anything. Just an old Hero, making sure things stay even for everyone.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-07-2009, 09:01 AM
Sei, you crack me up. I laughed my ass off at that post.

Yeah, like I'm scary. LOL

Brita
08-07-2009, 09:01 AM
Hrmm... that came off snarfy... I love you Brita like the water filter!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love you too Zaela, like the town in Mozambique :D

I just want to emphasise, that as hard as it is to imagine I am not saying this out of personal hurt feelings. I am just observing something that women do in general, and that just came up specifically here, that is potentially hurtful. Formalizing cliques with special invitations that inevitably mean some will be (perhaps pointedly) excluded. I don't mean me, I am secure in my friendships here. I mean in general.

Perhaps I am more sensitive to this because I have a daughter that is just starting to experiment with the usual girl hierarchy, and thus my motherly vigilence is spilling into TL.

Anyway- enough of that. It's not that big of a deal, just an observation.

Now, about Jalyn's legs...

yks 6nnetu hing
08-07-2009, 09:13 AM
That doesn't bother me at all. I hope that if I disappeared for a couple of years and the re-appeared that I would be remembered and welcomed warmly too. that't good to know :) I can see how it might cause confusion/animosity though. Been there myself, after all. Not the animosity part when someone returned but the "who is this person and why do they like him/her so much? (and will they like me and if they don't then will the others like me less)" thing. I know, I'm sometimes paranoid and insecure.


not the can of worms you thought, huh Gil?

so those legs? fishy or fishnet-y?

Brita
08-07-2009, 09:16 AM
not the can of worms you thought, huh Gil?


LOL! Is it ever here in TL? We are all hijackers extraordinaire....

GonzoTheGreat
08-07-2009, 09:18 AM
so those legs? fishy or fishnet-y?I have never seen Ivhon's legs, so I can't answer this for you.

Zaela Sedai
08-07-2009, 09:38 AM
I really do not want to see Ivhon's legs in fishnets....

John Snow
08-07-2009, 09:55 AM
Used to be (back in the dark days of the 90s before PC and Gay Rights and enlightenment), that any guy that did something out of line, he was referred to as "queer" or a "f@ggot". Looking back, it is an incredibly rude and wrong word to use about someone regardless of their sexual orientation. Its almost the equivalent of using the N-word to describe someone these days.

I hear (mostly on the net) the term "gay" used as an insult or derogatory description all the time. Nicer word, maybe, same stupid bigotry, yup.

Crispin's Crispian
08-07-2009, 09:56 AM
~old dude, whiskey and smokes voice~

Back in my day you had to scratch and claw for everything you got. You had to stand up to the power of Frenzy, Uno, t'soXXXXXX (don't say that name), Sini, Gil, Bela (he used to be scary), Firseal, and a lot of others. It was a tough, tough road, but some of us made it and some just didn't have the guts to stick it out. I was one with guts, so was SDog and Ivhon and Jalyn. We banded together, younglings fighting the online worlds. Were we badasses? Naw...we were just tough enough, and Ivhon just had a good enough grip to hang on and drag himself through on our coattails. Thats why he's so messed up now...he's seen things, things that a guy like him can't put behind him, y'know? Lifes hard out here. Ya gotta buck up and have some balls. Suck it up and dig deep...way up in there wheres it's itchy, and you can make it kid. I made it and look and me. I'm not weird or screwed up or anything. Just an old Hero, making sure things stay even for everyone.

~raises his glass~

WoW.

Crispin's Crispian
08-07-2009, 09:58 AM
I hear (mostly on the net) the term "gay" used as an insult or derogatory description all the time. Nicer word, maybe, same stupid bigotry, yup.
Thank you for bringing that up, Doc. The Net does seem be a place for bigotry that is normally suppressed to make it's way to the surface.

Sei'taer
08-07-2009, 10:02 AM
~raises his glass~

WoW.

~clink~
It's good to know ya, pal.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-07-2009, 10:18 AM
not the can of worms you thought, huh Gil?


Not really, no.

But I did just remember something. We do have an officially unofficial function. A while ago, Tam's wife tried to join us. She was jumped all over and greeted rather rudely for her temerity in choosing the handle, "Theoryland Queen." No one figured out right away who she was.

Understandably, she was very upset by this. I told her at the Death Wing Fest 08 that the Furies (all three of us were actually there) would be her honor guard if she ever came back. The Sirens, too. (And now the Valkyries.) So, that's pretty much our only function.

We're The Queen's Guard.

Davian93
08-07-2009, 10:45 AM
Not really, no.

But I did just remember something. We do have an officially unofficial function. A while ago, Tam's wife tried to join us. She was jumped all over and greeted rather rudely for her temerity in choosing the handle, "Theoryland Queen." No one figured out right away who she was.

Understandably, she was very upset by this. I told her at the Death Wing Fest 08 that the Furies (all three of us were actually there) would be her honor guard if she ever came back. The Sirens, too. (And now the Valkyries.) So, that's pretty much our only function.

We're The Queen's Guard.

Awkward...

Gilshalos Sedai
08-07-2009, 10:59 AM
A bit. We all apologized for us. And begged her to come back.

GonzoTheGreat
08-07-2009, 11:09 AM
A bit. We all apologized for us. And begged her to come back.Which she did, apparently. Almost as regularly as Tam.

Ivhon
08-07-2009, 11:17 AM
I really do not want to see Ivhon's legs in fishnets....

I did a New Year's Eve cabaret show in fishnets and drag, once. Do you know how hard it is to find size 14 heals?

Zaela Sedai
08-07-2009, 11:18 AM
Which she did, apparently. Almost as regularly as Tam.


BURN!!!

Lol i dont know why that popped in my head

Davian93
08-07-2009, 11:34 AM
Which she did, apparently. Almost as regularly as Tam.

ROFL!!!


Ouch.

Sei'taer
08-07-2009, 11:40 AM
I did a New Year's Eve cabaret show in fishnets and drag, once. Do you know how hard it is to find size 14 heals?

What size was......................uh..............



(that was awkward, I almost forgot that you never ask a lady her dress size)

Sinistrum
08-07-2009, 11:42 AM
Thank you for bringing that up, Doc. The Net does seem be a place for bigotry that is normally suppressed to make it's way to the surface.

Behold what happpens when you give people an anonymous source to vent their spleen and almost entirely remove the threat of physical violence in response to said venting.

Belazamon
08-07-2009, 02:46 PM
~old dude, whiskey and smokes voice~

Back in my day you had to scratch and claw for everything you got. You had to stand up to the power of Frenzy, Uno, t'soXXXXXX (don't say that name), Sini, Gil, Bela (he used to be scary), Firseal, and a lot of others. It was a tough, tough road, but some of us made it and some just didn't have the guts to stick it out. I was one with guts, so was SDog and Ivhon and Jalyn. We banded together, younglings fighting the online worlds. Were we badasses? Naw...we were just tough enough, and Ivhon just had a good enough grip to hang on and drag himself through on our coattails. Thats why he's so messed up now...he's seen things, things that a guy like him can't put behind him, y'know? Lifes hard out here. Ya gotta buck up and have some balls. Suck it up and dig deep...way up in there wheres it's itchy, and you can make it kid. I made it and look and me. I'm not weird or screwed up or anything. Just an old Hero, making sure things stay even for everyone.So would it surprise anyone to know that I totally read that in the Tick's voice? ;)

It's always somewhat disconcerting to see someone say that I used to be "scary."

Sei'taer
08-07-2009, 02:53 PM
So would it surprise anyone to know that I totally read that in the Tick's voice? ;)

It's always somewhat disconcerting to see someone say that I used to be "scary."

Wouldn't surprise me a bit. I was going for an Eastwood, Sizemore, Steven Tyler type voice. I guess it sounds crappy over the internet though....

Davian93
08-07-2009, 03:04 PM
Wouldn't surprise me a bit. I was going for an Eastwood, Sizemore, Steven Tyler type voice. I guess it sounds crappy over the internet though....

I was thinking of SGT Four Leaf Taybeck from Tropic Thunder...

"I don't know what its called. I just know the sound it makes when it takes another man's life"

Belazamon
08-07-2009, 03:57 PM
Wouldn't surprise me a bit. I was going for an Eastwood, Sizemore, Steven Tyler type voice. I guess it sounds crappy over the internet though....It was more that it's the sort of rambling, semi-coherent yet in-places-oddly-appropriate speech with which the Tick would close each episode. :D

Sei'taer
08-07-2009, 04:02 PM
It was more that it's the sort of rambling, semi-coherent yet in-places-oddly-appropriate speech with which the Tick would close each episode. :D


Yeah, it I suppose it was. It's been years since I watched The Tick though. I had to look on youtube to remember exactly what his voice sounded like. I thought it was pretty good though. I worked real hard on this part:

dig deep...way up in there wheres it's itchy,

and nobody said a word about it.

Frenzy
08-07-2009, 08:28 PM
they're probably still digging

Terez
08-08-2009, 12:26 AM
But I did just remember something. We do have an officially unofficial function. A while ago, Tam's wife tried to join us. She was jumped all over and greeted rather rudely for her temerity in choosing the handle, "Theoryland Queen." No one figured out right away who she was. That brings two questions to mind:

1. Why didn't she just say who she was?

2. Why didn't Tam warn her?

Davian93
08-08-2009, 01:02 AM
That brings two questions to mind:

1. Why didn't she just say who she was?

2. Why didn't Tam warn her?

I believe she thought she would be recognized...at least that's what Gil mentioned in the initial post concerning it.

Speaking of which, how long ago was this? I don't remember it...though that doesn't mean anything really considering my past absences and lack of memory.

Frenzy
08-08-2009, 01:20 AM
i hear memory is one of the first things to go when you get to be at about this stage of your life, Dav.

Davian93
08-08-2009, 01:25 AM
i hear memory is one of the first things to go when you get to be at about this stage of your life, Dav.

Memory goes at 27?

Frenzy
08-08-2009, 01:37 AM
no, memory goes when you're married.

Ivhon
08-08-2009, 06:44 AM
no, memory goes when you're married.
bahdum bum wakawakawaka...wait...what?

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2009, 07:30 AM
no, memory goes when you're married.I'm not sure about that. I think that the getting married is just one of the earliest symptoms. After all, most young men have sense enough to remember "do not get married", but when their memory starts to go, they forget about that too.
A prime example is Mat Cauthon: he lost a lot of his memory (as a result of his Shadar Logoth experience), and then he got married because he forgot to be sufficiently careful to avoid it.

tworiverswoman
08-09-2009, 04:58 AM
I've been laughing about the last couple of pages of posts - but I want to make an observation about the original point. I followed your link, and read the thing - and then followed a few more and read comments and all kinds of stuff.

Calling a guy a "dickhead" or an "asshole" rarely is going to convey the level of hostility that seems to come across in the posts that are being discussed here. Reading a comment that tells the woman blogger that the writer "hopes she gets raped real hard, so she knows just how GOOD its going to feel getting it..." (stopping there -the guy got filthy graphic). Reading posts from guys that say they'd like nothing better than to see the "bitch" get killed, or beaten, or gang-raped, or eaten by dogs, or... on and on.

I don't think I have ever read, anywhere on the net, anything posted to a male blogger that came anywhere CLOSE to the level of vitriol that you will find posted against women. The horrible part, to the woman they are posting to - or the other women reading it - is the level of buddy-buddy high-fiving the thugs get from other posters.

Some of you are saying it's all a matter of perception - that we see it as worse than it is. ~blinks~ I think you are incorrect. It's possibly not as FREQUENT as articles like this make it seem - perhaps because the subject matter itself brings out the skanks.

We are lucky at TL -- the worst we had to deal with was Cholly - and he was actually quite tame, compared to some of the posts I've seen "out there." Insulting and vulgar - but not vicious and hateful.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2009, 05:34 AM
Some of you are saying it's all a matter of perception - that we see it as worse than it is. ~blinks~ I think you are incorrect.I think you are correct.

But what does that make me, if I say that you are correct when you say that I (the 'you' in your post) am incorrect? :confused:

It's possibly not as FREQUENT as articles like this make it seem - perhaps because the subject matter itself brings out the skanks.

We are lucky at TL -- the worst we had to deal with was Cholly - and he was actually quite tame, compared to some of the posts I've seen "out there." Insulting and vulgar - but not vicious and hateful.What you are commenting on is real conservatism. People wishing they were still living in the "good old days" when what they are now merely saying anonymously over the Internet would actually have happened.

There are some people on this board who believe they're conservatives, but they are mistaken. They are merely progressives who can't quite keep up with reality.

Davian93
08-09-2009, 09:54 AM
Anytime Cholly wants to grow a pair and admit who he really was, he can feel free to do so. But then he was always the epitome of a coward.

Sinistrum
08-09-2009, 01:25 PM
I don't think I have ever read, anywhere on the net, anything posted to a male blogger that came anywhere CLOSE to the level of vitriol that you will find posted against women.

I don't think that's true at all. I've seen and heard plenty of stuff directed at guys that were just as bad, usually based on either race, religion, or politics. I'm not saying that women don't have to put up with shit, but I don't think its any better or worse than anything else anyone has to put up with.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-10-2009, 03:24 AM
usually based on either race, religion, or politics.
the recent Twitter and Facebook outage? Russian activists targeting ONE pro-Georgian user. Everyone else just got caught in the crossfire...

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=8278141&page=1

Sinistrum
08-10-2009, 03:34 AM
Yeah that's sort of the perfect example of what i'm talking about yks.

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2009, 04:24 AM
Sinistrum, are you implying that the US government has a bunch of spies who send out Internet bots in order to harass female bloggers?
After all, I don't think you can legitimately ascribe the incidents referred to in the OP to Russia, so you would need to believe that another government is responsible for it.

Since no non-US government organisation seems to have any real reason for targetting American women in that way, this leaves something like the FBI, the NSA or a similar organisation as the culprit.
Which do you think is responsible?

If you do think it is foreign action after all, then which country do you think is doing it, and why hasn't the Bush government (which was nominally in charge then*) taken action against these foreign threats to a US citizen on US soil?

* When not taking a vacation, which is why I said "nominally".

yks 6nnetu hing
08-10-2009, 05:27 AM
Gonzo, that's reductio ad absurdum

1) there's no evidence saying that the Russian government was behind the attack (although I think everyone knows I would be the first one to see conspiracy theories when it comes to Russia)

2) the POINT was that the attack was ethnic/political and severe, and therefore quite close to pretty much any vitriol against any specific woman - thereby proving that women aren't the only group to get victimized online.

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2009, 06:11 AM
Well, that attack was not just severe, it was also done on a rather huge scale. If that scale difference is significant (as I think it is), then your case is not comparable to the ones in the OP.

Let me try to make the issue clearer by dragging in a case that was mentioned in your link: Iran.
If it were easy to bring Twitter and Facebook down through Denial of Service attacks, then Iran would have done so. The very fact that Iran did not do that shows, in my opinion, that only very few powers on this planet could actually achieve that. And that shows that this particular attack was of a very different scale than merely posting comments (however vile) on the answer part of a blog.

So I disagree with Sinistrum that the two cases are comparable. It is, basically, the difference between one government official (Crowley) arresting a private citizen (Gates) without sufficient cause to do so, and one government (the Russian) invading another country (Georgia). Equating the two is simply fallacious.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-10-2009, 06:26 AM
but Gonzo
there's no evidence saying that the Russian government was behind the attack - for all we know it was a bunch of ultra-nationalist thugs who just happen to have some botnets available for them.

from my point of view, the main differnce between this particular attack and the "typical" misogynist attack is that this one tried to make the poster simply disappear from the public consciousness so what if part of that public consciousness was taken out as well; whereas the attacks against women usually try to vividly project rape, dismemberment and other nasty things happening to that particular woman so that the woman as well as the public consciousness is... let's say "aware" of the possibility/probablility of these happening in real life to that woman.



PS. when speaking of Russians, misogynism is often even more advanced than any other kind of hatred.

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2009, 06:29 AM
for all we know it was a bunch of ultra-nationalist thugs who just happen to have some botnets available for them.In Russia, is there a difference?

Davian93
08-10-2009, 06:48 AM
In Soviet Russia, computer hacks you!

yks 6nnetu hing
08-10-2009, 06:50 AM
In Russia, is there a difference? But there is in other countries. you can't equate anything happening in Russia to something (possibly) happening anywhere else...

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2009, 06:59 AM
But there is in other countries. you can't equate anything happening in Russia to something (possibly) happening anywhere else...Egwene, that was my point. :p

yks 6nnetu hing
08-10-2009, 07:31 AM
I thought your point was that FBI sends bots to target women like Russian thugs (=gov't) target Georgians

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2009, 07:43 AM
On the contrary, my point was that that is not what is going on, thus making the Georgia case and the "educated women" cases fundamentally different. The former are a matter of (thuggish) politics, the latter are a matter of (also thuggish, I admit) misogyny. Those are different things, and require different solutions.
I'm not sure either can be solved, but that's another matter entirely once again.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-10-2009, 07:53 AM
but... I already said that, too, see: from my point of view, the main differnce between this particular attack and the "typical" misogynist attack is that this one tried to make the poster simply disappear from the public consciousness so what if part of that public consciousness was taken out as well; whereas the attacks against women usually try to vividly project rape, dismemberment and other nasty things happening to that particular woman so that the woman as well as the public consciousness is... let's say "aware" of the possibility/probablility of these happening in real life to that woman.

they both do have some very basic common things though: hatred agains one specific person that can be expanded to a whole group of people with the same characterisitc - or the other way around: hatred of a group of people that is condensed in an attack agains one person (women, Georgians). Plus, vicious attacks from many people who have this hatred. Plus the high-five effect among the attackers.

Sei'taer
08-10-2009, 08:37 AM
I think all of them damn Georgians need their asses kicked. Burning Atlanta was too good for them. If I was Camel, there is no way I would move there. The people are weird. The still think they are fighting the civil war, and now all these attacks by the red russkies and it doesn't even get reported in the news because everyone knows they need to get hammered down there. You'd think they'd love their wonem a little more.

University of Georgia sucks too.

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2009, 08:46 AM
I am not at all sure there is all that much high fiving going on amongst the attackers against Georgia. I think those attacks are carried out by people who are simply doing their jobs, get paid for it (not a guarantee in Russia, I admit) and then go home.
The attacks against women that we're talking about here, on the other hand, are the work of amateurs (instead of professionals). So if you (someone) want to show a good analogue for this, then you have to come up with a case where such attacks against men are also carried out purely by individuals.

Perhaps I can explain the difference by giving two 'solutions'. Neither of which will actually work, of course, as I'm sure you will spot. Just in case, I'll explain a weak point in each case too.

1. It is possible to explain to the perps why they're wrong, and then, being sensible humans, they will stop.
This won't work in the Georgia case because the perps will say "don't care who is wrong or right, we get paid, so we do it".
This won't work in the women's case because, well, the assumption that the perps are reasonable is a bit iffy here.

2. Stop paying for the attacks.
This would work in the Georgia case, apart from the fact that we aren't the ones who pay the perps, so we can't do the "stop paying" part of this solution.
The idiots attacking the women don't get paid for that in the first place, so not paying them for it isn't a change.

Ivhon
08-10-2009, 08:49 AM
University of Georgia sucks too.

I dunno....the little coeds down there are CUTE in their black and red pleated skirts and pigtails.... I mean, every bit as hot as UF (in a different way) and way hotter than anyone else even in the SEC - and that's sayin somethin

yks 6nnetu hing
08-10-2009, 08:51 AM
you're taking a leap of judgement (although, I admit, a very logical leap) when you say the Russian thugs are paid for their work. I don't know enough about this particular attack, but in similar previous Russia-based attacks, the small core of perps ar, indeed paid, but once they start, there are plenty, and I mean PLENTY of others to jump on the haywagon and help along "for free". magically there are blogs and forums set up with detailed instructions on how regular PC users can help sabotage the target - and they do. (that's also the high-ficveing effect right there)

Sei'taer
08-10-2009, 10:37 AM
I dunno....the little coeds down there are CUTE in their black and red pleated skirts and pigtails.... I mean, every bit as hot as UF (in a different way) and way hotter than anyone else even in the SEC - and that's sayin somethin

Chauvinist.

Ivhon
08-10-2009, 10:42 AM
Chauvinist.

Bah. There's plenty of girl-drool going on in the vampire thread. Geese and Ganders so far as Im concerned.

Besides. I speak empirical truth. UGA girls ARE among the cutest.

Davian93
08-10-2009, 10:45 AM
Bah. There's plenty of girl-drool going on in the vampire thread. Geese and Ganders so far as Im concerned.

Besides. I speak empirical truth. UGA girls ARE among the cutest.

Typically, we are required to use quotes to help prove theories here on TL...however, in this case, I believe photos would be sufficient.

Sei'taer
08-10-2009, 11:00 AM
Typically, we are required to use quotes to help prove theories here on TL...however, in this case, I believe photos would be sufficient.

Several years ago I went with Pop to see SoE in Boston. At the time I was not married so I was paying close attention to the ladies. I saw very few really pretty ones anywhere. Finally we were at Fenway and this drop dead gorgeous girl comes up the aisle selling programs. She looks at us and says "would y'all like a program?" I said "Wow, thats a familiar accent. Where are you from?" She says "Ole Miss, I'm up here on an internship."

Now, I'm not saying all women up north are ugly because thats completely untrue...but per capita, the south has y'all whipped imnsho.

And all you have to do to know what the guys are like is to look at my smoking hot, swarthy countenance and fantastic personality to know it's true of the male population too.

Just sayin'

Ivhon
08-10-2009, 11:58 AM
And all you have to do to know what the guys are like is to look at my smoking hot, swarthy countenance and fantastic personality to know it's true of the male population too.

Just sayin'

You do realize that we can see your picture on facebook, right?

Sei'taer
08-10-2009, 12:15 PM
You do realize that we can see your picture on facebook, right?


Uh.....

Brita
08-10-2009, 03:21 PM
This was in the comment section of Camels thread on Hilary:

In a survey when asked what you fear most from the opposite sex, the majority of men said they are afraid women will laugh at them. The majority of women said they are afraid men will rape and/or murder them.
A book called The Gift of Fear

I couldn't find any actual reference of the survey, but it is an interesting quote nonetheless. And I was thinking about slasher flicks today (and how much I hate them) but also about how it is mainly men that watch them, and mainly young women getting killed. It makes me wonder if it is inescapable in our humanity that women will be brutalized by men, whether in reality or in imagination- and that either way, it sucks.

Ivhon
08-10-2009, 03:54 PM
This was in the comment section of Camels thread on Hilary:



I couldn't find any actual reference of the survey, but it is an interesting quote nonetheless. And I was thinking about slasher flicks today (and how much I hate them) but also about how it is mainly men that watch them, and mainly young women getting killed. It makes me wonder if it is inescapable in our humanity that women will be brutalized by men, whether in reality or in imagination- and that either way, it sucks.

Once I get done with exams, I can cite a study that shows that in 2/3 of domestic violence cases women initiate the violence (i.e. throw the first punch). Granted, the number of those cases where women throw the last punch is likely to be much smaller.

Im not saying that this excuses violence against women by any stretch of the imagination. But it does raise a question. I know that if I go up and take a shot at, Idunno...Chuck Norris...chances are Im gonna end up face down in hell and I would not blame Chuck Norris for putting me there. On the other hand, I think that there are a lot of women (like maybe the 2/3...one of whom I dated) who feel no compulsion in punching, pinching, slapping, biting and kicking a man because they know he a) won't fight back or b) will end up in jail if he does. This does not address domestic violence against men cases that are, probably quite understandably, massively under-reported and largely mocked and ignored by police when they are.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-10-2009, 04:11 PM
So... standing over a woman, leaning threateningly over her, invading her (for lack of a better phrase) "personal space" and glaring at her while shouting vile things at her is no reason for her to think she needs to defend herself?

GonzoTheGreat
08-10-2009, 04:16 PM
So... standing over a woman, leaning threateningly over her, invading her (for lack of a better phrase) "personal space" and glaring at her while shouting vile things at her is no reason for her to think she needs to defend herself?Of course not. Why would it be?

Zanguini
08-10-2009, 04:26 PM
Having personally visited 9 of the 12 SEC schools. Florida beats Georgia.
Florida beats everyone.


*I havnt been to South Carolina, Tennessee, or Kentucky.

Uno
08-10-2009, 04:31 PM
Just to touch on the original topic, historically, sexual reputation has been extremely important to women, much more so than to men, to the extent that it has often been the single most important thing about any woman, in the eyes of society. A sort of defining trait, if you will. It may not have been a good thing for a man to be sexually immoral, but even when that has been the case, it has only been one of many things about it. Not the only thing that defines him as a person. That is, a man may be a bit too sexually active, but he can still be a good farmer, politician, or whatever. He just has one character flaw, and that's it. A sexually promiscuous women, on the other hand, would just be a harlot. Anything else that could be said about her was unimportant.

Female sexuality has often been portrayed as a dirty and dangerous thing, so that when a woman is branded with charges of promiscuity, that's always been far more damaging to her than to a man, who in many cases might even brag about his conquests. If you call women certain terms even today, you are conjuring up these age-old images, whether you're fully aware of it or not.

Since sexual reputation has for so long been so important to what being a "proper" woman means, assertive women have routinely been branded as sexually aggressive. Aggressive woman are understood to behave in unwomanly ways (after all, true women should be modest, soft, and tender), and therefore it follows that they must be sexually unfeminine.

To the cruder sort of person, the answer as to what to do with these women has often been that they need to be tamed, and I don't think I need to go into what that means, while others have been content to portray assertive women as masculinized deviant beings of questionable sexuality. If you've seen the famous etching of Mary Woolstonecraft with a five o'clock shadow, you know what I mean.

To put it a bit more succinctly: When you call a man a "prick," you don't hurt him that much, because images of male sexuality aren't overladen with centuries of shame and vileness. When you call a woman a "cunt," you are drawing on all these negative connotations that persist even today, although most people would disown them.

JSUCamel
08-10-2009, 04:49 PM
So... standing over a woman, leaning threateningly over her, invading her (for lack of a better phrase) "personal space" and glaring at her while shouting vile things at her is no reason for her to think she needs to defend herself?

He's not saying this doesn't happen, because it does, but I can't count the number of times women have hit, slapped, kicked, punched or jabbed me with a fork (or other utensil) either myself or a friend (in my presence) and then were shocked when we forcefully grabbed their hands/wrists to get them to stop. "How dare you touch me!"

It happens.

And not all men are as nice as my friends and I are.

That doesn't mean your above situation doesn't happen, but women do instigate fights a lot.

For instance, my ex would never rest until I gave her an answer. My tendency is that when I notice myself getting angry, I just agree with whatever anyone's saying or ignore them or whatever I have to do to avoid a confrontation -- because if I get angry, I get really angry. With most friends, I find an excuse to walk away, cool down, vent my anger in other ways and then come back and everything's fine.

My ex couldn't stand that.

She'd push and push and push and push for an answer or a response, and she wouldn't let it go. If I walked away, she'd turn me around and keep yelling at me, poking me with her finger.

Finally, when my patience broke, I'd scream at her and yell at her and then she'd look smug, because, by BIWIDNB, she knew I was an asshole all along.

Were I a more violent man, she would certainly push me to punching her or whatever. And this happens all the time -- it's one of the reasons I refuse to even speak to her anymore.

Just because a woman gets hit by a man doesn't mean the man started it, and it certainly doesn't mean that the woman is a victim or the innocent one.

Ivhon's example was apt. if I went up to Mike Tyson and called him a dimwit idiot and slapped him, I'd sure as hell get my brains beaten to a bloody pulp. Is that my fault? Damn right it is.

People shouldn't push buttons and then get upset when something blows up.

There's a huge difference between domestic violence instigated by a woman and self-defense.

Davian93
08-10-2009, 05:16 PM
As Chris Rock would say, "It's never okay to hit a woman. You can shake the shit out of her though.".

Crispin's Crispian
08-10-2009, 05:26 PM
Ivhon's example was apt. if I went up to Mike Tyson and called him a dimwit idiot and slapped him, I'd sure as hell get my brains beaten to a bloody pulp. Is that my fault? Damn right it is.

People shouldn't push buttons and then get upset when something blows up.

There's a huge difference between domestic violence instigated by a woman and self-defense.
There have to be degrees, and a certain level of fear for safety. My four year old daughter has a really short temper, and sometimes hits me when she gets mad (that is, when she doesn't get her way). I could punch her in the face, but I wouldn't really call that self-defense, and I'm pretty sure I would go to jail. No one cares if "she started it."

Sei'taer
08-10-2009, 05:41 PM
He's not saying this doesn't happen, because it does, but I can't count the number of times women have hit, slapped, kicked, punched or jabbed me with a fork (or other utensil) either myself or a friend (in my presence) and then were shocked when we forcefully grabbed their hands/wrists to get them to stop. "How dare you touch me!"

It happens.

And not all men are as nice as my friends and I are.

That doesn't mean your above situation doesn't happen, but women do instigate fights a lot.

For instance, my ex would never rest until I gave her an answer. My tendency is that when I notice myself getting angry, I just agree with whatever anyone's saying or ignore them or whatever I have to do to avoid a confrontation -- because if I get angry, I get really angry. With most friends, I find an excuse to walk away, cool down, vent my anger in other ways and then come back and everything's fine.

My ex couldn't stand that.

She'd push and push and push and push for an answer or a response, and she wouldn't let it go. If I walked away, she'd turn me around and keep yelling at me, poking me with her finger.

Finally, when my patience broke, I'd scream at her and yell at her and then she'd look smug, because, by BIWIDNB, she knew I was an asshole all along.

Were I a more violent man, she would certainly push me to punching her or whatever. And this happens all the time -- it's one of the reasons I refuse to even speak to her anymore.

Just because a woman gets hit by a man doesn't mean the man started it, and it certainly doesn't mean that the woman is a victim or the innocent one.

Ivhon's example was apt. if I went up to Mike Tyson and called him a dimwit idiot and slapped him, I'd sure as hell get my brains beaten to a bloody pulp. Is that my fault? Damn right it is.

People shouldn't push buttons and then get upset when something blows up.

There's a huge difference between domestic violence instigated by a woman and self-defense.


Your ex needs to meet my ex.

The only truly violent thing I ever did was because of a situation like this. I didn't do anything to her though, so don't think that. I would never. I did go to jail for shooting her car 11 times with a 12 gauge. Brand new 240sx. Had about 2,000 miles on it. I left her a week later before I killed her and myself, or more than likely just myself. Tbh, she scared me so bad I couldn't even dream of doing something to her, bodily. I've since gotten over that fear, but it was there for a long time. Now I stand my ground and let her act like an idiot and then look at her like she really needs help. My daughter treats her the same way, so she doesn't mess with either of us anymore.

I was mistreated in every way you can imagine, physically, mentally, etc. She would tell me I wasn't a man because I didn't beat up the guy who cut me off in traffic. She would send whoever she was fucking at the time to beat me up, and if I lost the fight she would rag me for weeks and months afterwards about what a pussy I was. She cut me off from my family, and only Pop and SoE had the balls to show up at the house. They told her they didn't give a shit whether she wanted him there, and she was just going to have to put up with it. He never backed down and neither did SoE.

It was terrible for me when they left, but I thought I had to stay in the marriage for my daughter. SoE finally convinced me that I was better for her divorced and alive than dead. I think that's where I finally got the strength to leave.

Probably too much information, but it gives you a peephole into the life of Taer before he was able to take control of his own life.




PS. This bitch is going to school to be a nurse. I pray to God I never have to be in a hospital with her.

JSUCamel
08-10-2009, 05:51 PM
There have to be degrees, and a certain level of fear for safety. My four year old daughter has a really short temper, and sometimes hits me when she gets mad (that is, when she doesn't get her way). I could punch her in the face, but I wouldn't really call that self-defense, and I'm pretty sure I would go to jail. No one cares if "she started it."

I wasn't claiming self-defense for the men, but rather refuting Gil's implication that men are starting it without throwing the first punch. There is always a line that shouldn't be crossed -- hitting children or someone who can't defend themselves. But it's one thing to be brutally attacked by someone bigger than you unprovoked, and it's quite another to go up to a grizzly bear and kick it in the nads. In the first case, I would defend you to the best of my ability. In the latter, i would sit back, laugh, and say you deserved it.

Your four-year-old daughter is a weak example, if only because she doesn't have the capability to think in terms of those kinds of consequences. A thirty year old woman, however, should know better than to hit her large, strong husband who has a temper and history of violent behavior.

Brita
08-10-2009, 09:03 PM
Camel and Sei, that is awful. It is especially nice to see men have the courage to speak up about it, I'm sure it happens way more than we think.

Sei- thank god for you and your child that you got out of that relationship. My brother-in-law went through a similar situation- she was the most psychotic person I ever met and she scared the crap out of me. He had to move three provinces away to get away from her. Even then she tried to follow.

Anyway- slasher movies (which nobody has addressed) have been my pet peeve for a long time. The worst are the ones that portray true events (as if those need to be glorified in any way). It's not so much that they are made, but that they are so wildly popular with young men. I love horror movies like The Ring and White Noise and other paranormal/monster movies. But person on person torture I can't stand. I just don't get how someone can enjoy seeing the most twisted ways people can devise to torture another human being- like the Saw movies. My husband tries to explain it, he likes them, and I just end up feeling like throwing up, so...we just agree to disagree.

But what is it? Why, in a largely peaceful, prosperous and safe society must we invent evil to satisfy our violent minds? Since I can't talk to my hubby about it anymore due to propensity to get emotional about it, no matter how hard I try not to, I am asking it here.

Sinistrum
08-10-2009, 09:19 PM
Don't ask me. I just find them boring and silly. The plot to any slasher flick can be undone if the characters in them actually had a tad bit of wherewithall and a .45 hand gun.

The only possible attractions I can see to it would be either the adrenalin rush caused by geniune fear (which I personally don't get while watching slashers) or the fact that when a woman gets scared she tends to cling to you. And also possibly this.

Fear can facilitate sexual responsiveness in women, whereas it inhibits it in men," says Dr Glenn Wilson, a psychologist at King's College London.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2007/apr/06/2

Brita
08-10-2009, 10:20 PM
Thanks for the article Sini- female directed horror movies- that would be interesting.....

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 02:40 AM
I'm gonna tell you guys a true story now.

I'm the oldest of three, and I was always a kind of a "third parent" to my siblings, which kind of meant anything between nanny, cook and general peacekeeper. Maybe it was because I was older than my years or maybe I was older than my years because of it. Anyway, I almost never played with my brother and sister, they always played together, and argued together. And I was always there to break the arguments up. My borther is 2 years younger than me, my sis 5 younger than me.

So this one time we were in the elevator going up to my dad's office and as was not unusual, my brother and sister got into an argument - I don't even remember about what. I remember my brother kind of slapping my sisters hands away and me starting to break it up - aaand then he turned against me. I got somewhat beat up. well, enough to have a bloody lip, anyways. I was 12, maybe 13 at the time so he was starting to get bigger than me. the elevator went ding-dong and they, again best friends, went on to dad. I stayed back, cried a little, then went back to dad's place, cut up my brothers backpack, gathered my stuff and took the next bus back home to mom - only when the bus arrived, I didn't go straight home, I went to my best friend's place and fumed there - by then my lip wasn't even swollen any more. And I went home by 5 in the afternoon 'cause, you know, I figured they'd be getting worried.

They weren't. Dad had figured out that I was "missing" just... maybe 15 minutes before I got home, they'd just assumed that I was sulking somewhere in town. Which I was, but... meh.

Thing is, sibling fights happen often and I don't think I would've been nearly as upset if the original fight had been between me and my brother but this was different - I felt like I got thumped for standing up for my little sister. And now that I'm older and we've talked about the incident, my sis and me, it turns out that it was never really clear to dad or mom what the fight was about and they all kind of laughed about it and went "oh, silly yks and her teenage tempers". *sigh* now THAT is even worse that the actual bloody lip.



was it "my own fault"? in a way, I suppose. was it major violence as we've been talking about here previously? probably not. But it still influences who I am and how I think abou things. And I think it's NEVER ok to just ignore someone's bloody lip or bruised eye.

Brita
08-11-2009, 08:19 AM
I would have been pissed too, yks. If my son ever, ever bloodied my daughter's lip or bruised her eye, there would be some major discipline going on, no matter who started it or what happened. But the same goes for my daughter, if she bloodied his lip or bruised his eye, she would be in a helluva lot of trouble too. Although I have to admit I would be way more pissed at my son than my daughter, simply because he's older and stronger. A bit of a double standard I guess.

And look how it has affected you, you carry it with you to this day.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 08:24 AM
Other than pure self defense, a guy should never ever hit a girl. I couldn't even imagine hitting a woman/girl. Also, certain types of blocks (the kind that will break a wrist) should be avoided at all costs too. Walk away (like Taer/Camel did), try to get out of the situation.

Even better yet, pull a Rhett Butler. ;)

Brita
08-11-2009, 08:34 AM
Even better yet, pull a Rhett Butler. ;)

Oooooh- that is the worst! I don't have nightmares of my husband cheating, or hitting me or anything terrible like that. When I have a bad dream about him- he is pulling a Rhett Butler, and meaning it. He just couldn't care less. Pulling a Rhett Butler is very effective, but may incur the fury of a woman scorned because it definitely pushes a button.

GonzoTheGreat
08-11-2009, 08:36 AM
Other than pure self defense, a guy should never ever hit a girl. I couldn't even imagine hitting a woman/girl.Let me give fair warning: I try not to be sexist in matters such as this, so if someone attacks me, then I fight back. Doesn't matter whether or not the attacker has a discernable gender.
And hitting someone without being attacked is wrong, no matter what he says about yo mamma.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 08:37 AM
Oooooh- that is the worst! I don't have nightmares of my husband cheating, or hitting me or anything terrible like that. When I have a bad dream about him- he is pulling a Rhett Butler, and meaning it. He just couldn't care less. Pulling a Rhett Butler is very effective, but may incur the fury of a woman scorned because it definitely pushes a button.
and the result of the fury of a woman scorned is a man being forced to defend himelf?


life would be so much easier if people weren't so screwed up.

Sei'taer
08-11-2009, 08:46 AM
and the result of the fury of a woman scorned is a man being forced to defend himelf?


life would be so much easier if people weren't so screwed up.

I don't know where the quote comes from but it goes, "Hell hath no fury like that of a woman scorned."


In my opinion, it comes down to this. A woman is a princess, from the day she is born, Daddy treats her special. Men open doors for her, step to the side and let her pass, that kind of stupid chivalrous crap. Women come to expect it. I've been on a forklift driving through a crowded area, men will stop and let you pass, women keep walking and expect you to stop so they can pass. Because thats they way it is supposed to happen. This isn't true of all women, obviously, but I think thats the mindset that sets women off. It's why we have bridezillas and trophy wives and all that.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 08:47 AM
Oooooh- that is the worst! I don't have nightmares of my husband cheating, or hitting me or anything terrible like that. When I have a bad dream about him- he is pulling a Rhett Butler, and meaning it. He just couldn't care less. Pulling a Rhett Butler is very effective, but may incur the fury of a woman scorned because it definitely pushes a button.

I was thinking of the "fight" scene where he ends up tossing her over his shoulder for a night of passionate love...not the "dodge the blow, let her fall down the stairs" scene. She was quite happy the following morning IIRC. :)

Brita
08-11-2009, 08:48 AM
and the result of the fury of a woman scorned is a man being forced to defend himelf?


life would be so much easier if people weren't so screwed up.

When I think of the fury of a woman scorned, it is never physical- but basically a tantrum. She is going to try and get him to react, show emotions, care in some way. Basically pull a Scarlett O'Hara. I have only known one girl in my life (that I'm aware of, admittedly) that has physically attacked her partner. So, from my life experience, a woman's fury is not physical. Emotional and psychologial definitely, but not physical.

There is no justified reason for a man to be physical in this situation. He has dealt the death blow (figuratively speaking) by not giving a damn.

Brita
08-11-2009, 08:49 AM
I was thinking of the "fight" scene where he ends up tossing her over his shoulder for a night of passionate love...not the "dodge the blow, let her fall down the stairs" scene. She was quite happy the following morning IIRC. :)

LOL- and I was thinking of "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!". Man that's a good book.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 08:50 AM
Sei, hence why life would be so much easier if people weren't so screwed up;)

Davian93
08-11-2009, 08:53 AM
What's wrong with chivalry and being a gentleman? As long as its for your wife/SO I see no issue with it.

The problem I see is when another random woman fully expects me to open the door for her or get out of her way and then gets pissy when I don't hold the door open. Granted if its a "she's right behind me" thing, yeah, I'll usually push it opens so it doesn't slam but I can't stand the "She's halfway across the parking lot and then gets all pissy/evil glare if you don't stand there with the door held open, etc so she can waltz on in...I especially get annoyed when she acts that way when I'm clearly with my fiancee. A couple times I've called them on it because they start muttering something about me under their breathe to whoever they're with about "Why didn't he do this or that for me?" with outraged entitlement. We've actually confronted them to the point of saying "Oh sorry, didn't know was dating you" and they look stupid at that point.


There's a huge difference between thinking "that was nice" and fully expecting it/being outraged when every random guy doesn't break his back for you...the latter, I can't stand.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 08:54 AM
LOL- and I was thinking of "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!". Man that's a good book.

Yeah, but you know they end up back together eventually. Though they were both so stubborn they didn't realize they belonged together.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 08:54 AM
I was thinking of the "fight" scene where he ends up tossing her over his shoulder for a night of passionate love...not the "dodge the blow, let her fall down the stairs" scene. She was quite happy the following morning IIRC. :)
funny, that's what I thought you meant and then I read Brita's reaction and thought that maybe I thought wrong.

anyways, I HATE that kind of Rhett Butler. to my mind (and I admit, this is very very personal and others probably don't feel this way at all) this kind of behaviour is much too close to rape. Besides, it can have the Ross side-effect where the woman thinks that the man admits it's all his fault where actually he doesn't and thus, nothing is solved at all.

Sei'taer
08-11-2009, 08:56 AM
There's a huge difference between thinking "that was nice" and fully expecting it/being outraged when every random guy doesn't break his back for you...the latter, I can't stand.

And thats exactly what I was talking about.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 08:56 AM
funny, that's what I thought you meant and then I read Brita's reaction and thought that maybe I thought wrong.

anyways, I HATE that kind of Rhett Butler. to my mind (and I admit, this is very very personal and others probably don't feel this way at all) this kind of behaviour is much too close to rape. Besides, it can have the Ross side-effect where the woman thinks that the man admits it's all his fault where actually he doesn't and thus, nothing is solved at all.

In some instances, yes it would be rape. However, Rhett knew Scarlett well enough that he knew it wasn't and knew that she knew it wasn't. Its a matter of knowing each other well enough.

And in Ross's defense, the letter was 18 pages...FRONT AND BACK.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 08:59 AM
When I think of the fury of a woman scorned, it is never physical- but basically a tantrum. She is going to try and get him to react, show emotions, care in some way. Basically pull a Scarlett O'Hara. I have only known one girl in my life (that I'm aware of, admittedly) that has physically attacked her partner. So, from my life experience, a woman's fury is not physical. Emotional and psychologial definitely, but not physical.

There is no justified reason for a man to be physical in this situation. He has dealt the death blow (figuratively speaking) by not giving a damn.
oh, I don't know, I remember the period before my parents broke up as the "flying saucers era" and it wasn't my dad throwing them. most of the time he wasn't even home at the time.

Brita
08-11-2009, 09:00 AM
Yeah, but you know they end up back together eventually. Though they were both so stubborn they didn't realize they belonged together.

No way- Rhett was done with the drama. They were both strong willed, and once Rhett made up his mind, and closed her off, that was it, imo.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 09:01 AM
In some instances, yes it would be rape. However, Rhett knew Scarlett well enough that he knew it wasn't and knew that she knew it wasn't. Its a matter of knowing each other well enough.

And in Ross's defense, the letter was 18 pages...FRONT AND BACK.
:D precisely. when an arguemnt goes on and on and on and ON - and the guy pulls a Rhett to just shut the girl up, there's awesomeness (one would assume) all around - and then morning comes, and then what?

Brita
08-11-2009, 09:03 AM
oh, I don't know, I remember the period before my parents broke up as the "flying saucers era" and it wasn't my dad throwing them. most of the time he wasn't even home at the time.

Oh for sure. I know my life experiences are fairly limited and in no way reflect reality everywhere. I was just trying to put my statement into the context in which I intended it to be, for clarity's sake.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 09:04 AM
No way- Rhett was done with the drama. They were both strong willed, and once Rhett made up his mind, and closed her off, that was it, imo.

Maybe and maybe not. He did really love her. I think they end up working things out.

precisely. when an arguemnt goes on and on and on and ON - and the guy pulls a Rhett to just shut the girl up, there's awesomeness (one would assume) all around - and then morning comes, and then what?

Um...more "awesomeness"?

Seriously though, they probably realize after cooling off that what they were fighting about wasn't really as bad as they were making it out to be or that it wasn't a big deal and they figure things out.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 09:09 AM
Oh for sure. I know my life experiences are fairly limited and in no way reflect reality everywhere. I was just trying to put my statement into the context in which I intended it to be, for clarity's sake.
you know what's funny? To this day, if I'm stressed or upset, breaking things relaxes me. Sometimes I like to "kill" money, but seriously, one of the best relaxation "techniques" for me is taking the used glass jars and bottles to the glass collection point and one by one dropping them in the hole and hearing them break.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 09:09 AM
What the hell is pulling a Rhett Butler? Cheating on her, or carrying her up the stairs for some rather forceful marital relations? (Nevermind, took me too long to post, y'all explained it.)



In my opinion, it comes down to this. A woman is a princess, from the day she is born, Daddy treats her special. Men open doors for her, step to the side and let her pass, that kind of stupid chivalrous crap. Women come to expect it. I've been on a forklift driving through a crowded area, men will stop and let you pass, women keep walking and expect you to stop so they can pass. Because thats they way it is supposed to happen. This isn't true of all women, obviously, but I think thats the mindset that sets women off. It's why we have bridezillas and trophy wives and all that.

Apparently, I need to thank my dad for not giving either myself or my sisters the idea we're princesses. And I'll need to smack Bryan if he does that with any potential daughters.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 09:12 AM
What the hell is pulling a Rhett Butler? Cheating on her, or carrying her up the stairs for some rather forceful marital relations?

Read the thread Gil...it is explained later on.

And I think Scarlett's cheating on her with Ashley is far far worse than anything else.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 09:14 AM
Seriously though, they probably realize after cooling off that what they were fighting about wasn't really as bad as they were making it out to be or that it wasn't a big deal and they figure things out.
but what if it IS a Ross-Rachel misunderstanding? what if she really is that bent on "winning" that particular argument and he's not willing to back down? Eventually the issue needs to be solved or the couple needs to break up, can't just patch things up with grilled cheese or Rhett Butlers




er... I forgot how this relates to the original topic, btw...

Davian93
08-11-2009, 09:15 AM
but what if it IS a Ross-Rachel misunderstanding? what if she really is that bent on "winning" that particular argument and he's not willing to back down? Eventually the issue needs to be solved or the couple needs to break up, can't just patch things up with grilled cheese or Rhett Butlers




er... I forgot how this relates to the original topic, btw...

Ah, but Ross and Rachel DO end up together in the end...again, they were just fighting the inevitable.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 09:18 AM
Ah, but Ross and Rachel DO end up together in the end...again, they were just fighting the inevitable.
hrmph, well she's spoiled and mean and he's spoiled and a self-righteous moron so serves them right (seriously, those are the worst two of the Friends)

Davian93
08-11-2009, 09:19 AM
hrmph, well she's spoiled and mean and he's spoiled and a self-righteous moron so serves them right (seriously, those are the worst two of the Friends)

I always wanted Joey and Phoebe to end up together...that would have made the most sense.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 09:22 AM
I always wanted Joey and Phoebe to end up together...that would have made the most sense.
I don't know, I always really liked the Monica-Chandler pairing. Somehow it just made sense. Phoebe and Joey wouldd have been too alike, I think

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 09:26 AM
Yeah, that was my favorite.


Bryan and I often joke we're the Monica and Chandler to our friends.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 09:28 AM
I don't know, I always really liked the Monica-Chandler pairing. Somehow it just made sense. Phoebe and Joey wouldd have been too alike, I think

There's nothing wrong with Monica and Chandler...they go well together but Joey and Phoebe would have been fun too.

Besides that, Joey is the only guy that never screwed over one of the other guys on the show. Both Ross and Chandler stole and cheated with one of Joey's girlfriends in the course of the show. Joey never did that...and was thus the best of the 3 guys on the show.

Edit: BTW, have we pushed this one far enough off topic yet?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 09:33 AM
Wait, are you saying Ross and Chandler broke the Bro Code?

Davian93
08-11-2009, 09:35 AM
Wait, are you saying Ross and Chandler broke the Bro Code?

Oh completely. Both were complete jerks to Joey.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 09:36 AM
Edit: BTW, have we pushed this one far enough off topic yet?
dunno. BTW, there's a typo in your sig, it's starting to drive me nuts. It's "Mamma Mia", not "Mama Mia"

Davian93
08-11-2009, 09:42 AM
dunno. BTW, there's a typo in your sig, it's starting to drive me nuts. It's "Mamma Mia", not "Mama Mia"

Blame Taer...he's the one that wrote it.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-11-2009, 09:46 AM
Blame Taer OK

Taer=male -> blaming Taer = blaming all males for everything always.

there. does that take the thread back on topic?

Crispin's Crispian
08-11-2009, 10:02 AM
Your four-year-old daughter is a weak example, if only because she doesn't have the capability to think in terms of those kinds of consequences. A thirty year old woman, however, should know better than to hit her large, strong husband who has a temper and history of violent behavior.
I don't see that much of a difference. Yes, she should know that, but no court in the land is going to defend the huge strong guy if he really hurts her (assuming she's not also huge, strong, and dangerous).

You act like the man in that situation has no choice but to haul off and smack her.

GonzoTheGreat
08-11-2009, 10:11 AM
The strongest man can be killed by a woman who knows what she's doing, or is merely lucky.
Push him down the stairs when he isn't expecting it, run after him and kick your high heel into his throat.
It may not be lethal, but I suspect it is more likely to kill him than not.

An adult, whether man or woman, is supposed to know and understand that sort of possibilities, a four year old is not. So, unless you propose taking away the right to vote from women on the grounds that they're mentally incapable of deciding, you will have to accept that they are just as responsible for their actions as men are.

Crispin's Crispian
08-11-2009, 10:11 AM
Let me give fair warning: I try not to be sexist in matters such as this, so if someone attacks me, then I fight back. Doesn't matter whether or not the attacker has a discernable gender.
And hitting someone without being attacked is wrong, no matter what he says about yo mamma.
That's exactly what I was thinking.

And as far as chivalry, I open and/or hold the door for anyone close enough, male or female. I might hold it longer for an elderly person, or someone with a disability, or my wife, but that's about it.

Sei'taer
08-11-2009, 10:27 AM
OK

Taer=male -> blaming Taer = blaming all males for everything always.

there. does that take the thread back on topic?

I totally accept blame. A movie that is that high on my top ten worst movies ever list deserves to be spelled wrong.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 10:28 AM
I totally accept blame. A movie that is that high on my top ten worst movies ever list deserves to be spelled wrong.

The error has since been corrected.

Sei'taer
08-11-2009, 10:31 AM
The error has since been corrected.

My lawyers will be contacting you.

Ivhon
08-11-2009, 11:06 AM
I totally accept blame. A movie that is that high on my top ten worst movies ever list deserves to be spelled wrong.

In order to rate it in your ten worst ever, you must have actually seen it. Which begs the question:

Whatever possessed ya?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 11:07 AM
I believe his wife did.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 11:09 AM
I believe his wife did.

Wouldn't that be a form of female on male abuse?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 11:11 AM
Depends on if he got rewarded afterwards. Or if she hated it, too.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 11:11 AM
Depends on if he got rewarded afterwards. Or if she hated it, too.

Rewarded with a grilled cheese perhaps?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 11:15 AM
However Mrs. Taer rewards said behavior, sure.

Sinistrum
08-11-2009, 11:31 AM
Man this thread got incredibly lame over night. Here I was expecting some good horror movie talk and what do I get instead? The lameness that is a terrible book that shall not be named by me lest I remember its terribleness and the lameness that is Friends. You're all fired, especially Davian's masculinity. :p

Davian93
08-11-2009, 11:34 AM
Man this thread got incredibly lame over night. Here I was expecting some good horror movie talk and what do I get instead? The lameness that is a terrible book that shall not be named by me lest I remember its terribleness and the lameness that is Friends. You're all fired, especially Davian's masculinity. :p

Huh?

Sei'taer
08-11-2009, 11:47 AM
Man this thread got incredibly lame over night. Here I was expecting some good horror movie talk and what do I get instead? The lameness that is a terrible book that shall not be named by me lest I remember its terribleness and the lameness that is Friends. You're all fired, especially Davian's masculinity. :p

Uh...have you read Davs quote? Or seen the toe socks...er...shoes he wears?

Davian93
08-11-2009, 11:50 AM
Uh...have you read Davs quote? Or seen the toe socks...er...shoes he wears?

They're really comfortable.

Sei'taer
08-11-2009, 11:51 AM
In order to rate it in your ten worst ever, you must have actually seen it. Which begs the question:

Whatever possessed ya?

My wife asked me to take her so we had a date night and went. It was a terrible movie. My wife even asked for our money back.

Sinistrum
08-11-2009, 11:52 AM
I was willing to overlook all that Sei but Friends talk is unforgiveable!

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 12:03 PM
Would you prefer if we'd diverged into Firefly?

Brita
08-11-2009, 12:10 PM
Would you prefer if we'd diverged into Firefly?

Jayne kicks butt! But River kicks ass!

Gilshalos Sedai
08-11-2009, 12:10 PM
And Zoe could probably take them both.

JSUCamel
08-11-2009, 01:36 PM
I don't see that much of a difference. Yes, she should know that, but no court in the land is going to defend the huge strong guy if he really hurts her (assuming she's not also huge, strong, and dangerous).

You act like the man in that situation has no choice but to haul off and smack her.

I think you and I are thinking of different things. I'm not talking about the legal definition of things, I'm talking about what's gonna happen in a real-life situation. If a woman keeps pushing my buttons, slaps me, insults me.. she doesn't get to get surprised when I react in a possibly violent way (although, like Brita's "woman scorned" idea, my response is most likely to be verbally violent and physically intimidating, as opposed to actual hitting and punching).

You're right -- if I assaulted my wife for whatever reason and it was physically visible -- then I'd be thrown in jail. The other way around? Probably not. That's kind of the crux of the problem here.

My whole response was to support Ivhon's reference to a study that asserted that 2/3rds of domestic violence cases are instigated by women throwing the first punch. Gil implied that men started it by getting up in the women's face, forcing the women to hit the men first out of fear/self-defense.

My argument is that while that may (and does) happen, I don't think that explains all of the 2/3rds, or even most of it. There are plenty of instances in my life where I've done absolutely nothing, but my girlfriend pushes my buttons and hits me because she wants me to react to her in some way. I feel myself getting angry, I walk away, she keeps pushing those buttons, and I finally explode.

My arguments here aren't that it's right to hit someone who insults you or picks a fight, but rather that the person picking a fight shouldn't be surprised or upset when they actually get into a fight!

When you kick a grizzly in the nads, and you get mauled, nobody's gonna support you to go back and shoot that grizzly. They'll say "You were a dumbass and you should have known better."

When a woman hits a man that they know is angry or has had violent responses in the past, and then the woman gets beaten up, then I immediately lose sympathy for that woman -- she should have known better!

I'm not talking legally, I'm talking practically. You just don't pick fights with someone bigger than you and then get upset/surprised when they react violently. That's insanity.

Birgitte
08-11-2009, 02:38 PM
When you kick a grizzly in the nads, and you get mauled, nobody's gonna support you to go back and shoot that grizzly. They'll say "You were a dumbass and you should have known better

Your analogy is faulty. They do go shoot the grizzly bear.

Davian93
08-11-2009, 02:42 PM
Your analogy is faulty. They do go shoot the grizzly bear.

That's if you feed the bears...not kick them.

Birgitte
08-11-2009, 02:44 PM
If the bear mauls you, they're going to go kill it. They can't have bears out there thinking about how tasty human flesh is.

Crispin's Crispian
08-11-2009, 03:55 PM
My arguments here aren't that it's right to hit someone who insults you or picks a fight, but rather that the person picking a fight shouldn't be surprised or upset when they actually get into a fight!

On one hand, you say you lose all sympathy for a person who provokes an attack. But on the other, you are not arguing that it's right to respond violently to such provocation. Forgive me if I'm getting confused.

When you kick a grizzly in the nads, and you get mauled, nobody's gonna support you to go back and shoot that grizzly. They'll say "You were a dumbass and you should have known better."
But a grizzly is a wild animal, and as such is argumentatively on par with my daughter in the previous example.

When a woman hits a man that they know is angry or has had violent responses in the past, and then the woman gets beaten up, then I immediately lose sympathy for that woman -- she should have known better!
Yes, and? So what if she should have known better.

I'm not talking legally, I'm talking practically. You just don't pick fights with someone bigger than you and then get upset/surprised when they react violently. That's insanity.
No you don't get surprised, but do you press charges? Do you get a divorce? What do you do? Do you just get off the floor and say, "well, sorry I provoked you, thanks for breaking my face?"

My whole argument is that it doesn't matter if the woman is provoking the man, unless the woman is actually dangerous or he feels that she is. My wife might jab me with a spoon or flick my ear, or even raise her fist to hit me if she really gets mad (hypothetically...I don't think any of those things has ever happened), but I'm 95% sure I could take her in a fight. As such, I'm not going to escalate (unless she has a knife or something...).

Who cares if the woman is instigating?

JSUCamel
08-11-2009, 05:16 PM
On one hand, you say you lose all sympathy for a person who provokes an attack. But on the other, you are not arguing that it's right to respond violently to such provocation. Forgive me if I'm getting confused.


Correct.


But a grizzly is a wild animal, and as such is argumentatively on par with my daughter in the previous example.

No, in your example, your daughter is the instigator, you're the big guy that can take your daughter in a fight. In my example, you're the instigator (you know better), the grizzly is the big guy who can take you in a fight.

One could argue that an sufficiently angered male is no different from an enraged grizzly. I'm not making that argument, but my point stands -- you don't provoke something that can kick your ass.

No you don't get surprised, but do you press charges? Do you get a divorce? What do you do? Do you just get off the floor and say, "well, sorry I provoked you, thanks for breaking my face?"

This depends on the circumstance and how violent such altercations become. Many domestic violence reports are simple slaps or one-time hits that are reported. Many others are when one mate flat out beats the shit out of the other. Some situations call for pressing charges, some don't.

The problem is that whomever instigates it doesn't matter -- whether you push me into punching you or whether I just decide to punch you cause I'm drunk, you still have a bloody face. I'm not arguing that it's a proper response.

My whole argument is that it doesn't matter if the woman is provoking the man, unless the woman is actually dangerous or he feels that she is. My wife might jab me with a spoon or flick my ear, or even raise her fist to hit me if she really gets mad (hypothetically...I don't think any of those things has ever happened), but I'm 95% sure I could take her in a fight. As such, I'm not going to escalate (unless she has a knife or something...).

Who cares if the woman is instigating?

Again, my original point was to contest Gil's implication that men get up in a woman's face until she feels threatened and THEN she hits him and then gets beaten to a bloody pulp by her husband/boyfriend.

Gil has made the assumption that since men tend to be more aggressive, they will always instigate the fight in some way -- and if the woman hits first, well, gee golly whiz, she was just defending herself.

And I don't buy that. It happens, but sometimes women JUST PLAIN HIT MEN when they're angry. That doesn't make it RIGHT to hit them back, but hitting people PERIOD is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated.

Dragon Thief
08-11-2009, 05:31 PM
And I don't buy that. It happens, but sometimes women JUST PLAIN HIT MEN when they're angry.

I hadn't read a whole lot of this thread, so I may be taking this out of context, but I 100% agree with Camel's last few posts.

Actually, me and some of my (female) co-workers were talking about it one day. There are 3 of them - and they all three state they hit guys all the time. Most of the time joking, but not all the time - sometimes they are flat out punches. And they expect the man to take it.

If a woman punches me, and I feel it was out of place, I'm going to hit her right back. And I won't hold back. Someone else trying to decide whether it was right or moral is laughable - the woman (hypothetically) hit me, not them. I don't care if you're a famous wrestler or a skinny teenage girl, anyone who throws a punch and doesn't expect the other party to (try) to fight back is just stupid.

Of course, I could almost guarantee that if said hypothetical women pressed charges, I would get punished for hitting her while she got off free. It's just the way it works - kind of like how a woman gets custody of kids in a divorce nearly by default unless the man can 'prove' she's unfit. The woman only has to prove she's a woman to win, most times. Inequality doesn't even start to describe it.

Brita
08-11-2009, 09:13 PM
Actually, me and some of my (female) co-workers were talking about it one day. There are 3 of them - and they all three state they hit guys all the time. Most of the time joking, but not all the time - sometimes they are flat out punches. And they expect the man to take it.


:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

That's ridiculous.

To loosely quote YKS- the people weren't so screwed up things would be a lot easier.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-12-2009, 02:26 AM
Sini, if you're saying that you dislike the thread being girlified, then I COULD take that as discrimination. I'm not gonna, but I could. You know, since it's actually about boys and girls and how they're different :p See, Dav knows how to navigate the "female-infested waters" ;)

so how about messing with a person's head? I think nowadays that's also considered abuse but it's way harder to define than actual physical abuse. You know, constantly being told you're not good enough, you could never do better, you're ugly and stupid... Whatever you do, no matter how hard you try, nothing is ever right... Doesn't even have to incolve curse words such as in the original example, although often these words are present as well and in the end, the person being subjected to them, starts believing it.

And also, when is it abuse and when is it the hard truth? if someone really IS incompetent beyond belief but has an incredibly high self-esteem ('course, the whole point oof psychological abuse is to erode the self-esteem) - or what if you THINK they have an unreasonably high self-esteem, but inside, they're really insecure?

Of course, here the important part is that the abuser must know the victim very well - usually we don't care what strangers think about us, but we care very much about what people we care about think about us. And if the abuser delibrately keeps "hitting" exactly where he/she knows it hurts most? Or what if the abusee is oversensitised towards anything that the (perceived) abuser might say so that even the smallest comment a la "the potatoes are smaller than yesterday" - which might be meant as just a comment not something to hurt the other at all - but in the "abusee's" head it turns into a viscious attack?

GonzoTheGreat
08-12-2009, 04:43 AM
You know, constantly being told you're not good enough, you could never do better, you're ugly and stupid...Ah, I can tell you that you're not ugly.

Davian93
08-12-2009, 06:49 AM
Ah, I can tell you that you're not ugly.

Awwwwwwwwwww:)


so how about messing with a person's head? I think nowadays that's also considered abuse but it's way harder to define than actual physical abuse

I think that can be worse than physical abuse in some ways.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-12-2009, 07:51 AM
It is worse.

Brita
08-12-2009, 08:00 AM
It is worse.

Well, I don't know. I think a person who is physically abusive is also emotionally abusive. I can't imagine the beater being kind and caring and supportive and then suddenly laying the beat down on their spouse.

Physical abuse has emotional abuse all wrapped up into it. 2 for 1 special.

If it is emotional abuse alone, then perhaps it can be more insidious and more difficult to pinpoint and deal with. But I would venture that physical abuse is worse than emotional abuse alone.

GonzoTheGreat
08-12-2009, 08:15 AM
It is worse.Now where do I find volunteers to test this? :p

yks 6nnetu hing
08-12-2009, 08:44 AM
Well, I don't know. I think a person who is physically abusive is also emotionally abusive. I can't imagine the beater being kind and caring and supportive and then suddenly laying the beat down on their spouse.

Physical abuse has emotional abuse all wrapped up into it. 2 for 1 special.

If it is emotional abuse alone, then perhaps it can be more insidious and more difficult to pinpoint and deal with. But I would venture that physical abuse is worse than emotional abuse alone.
I agree on the 2 for 1 special. But imagine this: married couple, in their mid-fourties. from the outside everything looks peachy: three kids, doing well in school, big house (perhaps with a garden), nice income, no cheating... and all of a sudden one of them kills themselves. Or up and leaves. Just like that. there was no physical violence, and very little fighting otherwise, so the society is baffled at this. Why would someone take this radical action?

"if he doesn't hit you, there are no money problems and no-one's cheating then everything is fine" - that is the main conception, right?

Davian93
08-12-2009, 08:47 AM
Postpartum depression most likely...or perhaps a history of undiagnosed depression.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-12-2009, 08:48 AM
Or perhaps one of them was just an asshole.

Davian93
08-12-2009, 08:49 AM
Or perhaps one of them was just an asshole.

Nah...couldn't be that. Has to be Depression of some sort. I mean, look at them, they had the perfect life.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-12-2009, 08:50 AM
Postpartum depression most likely...or perhaps a history of undiagnosed depression.
personal experience with either? I don't so... you know... if you're giving that as an option then one would assume that you do

Davian93
08-12-2009, 08:56 AM
personal experience with either? I don't so... you know... if you're giving that as an option then one would assume that you do

Nope. I was just joking tryign to come up with what the possible "excuses" would be before they admitted that maybe the idyllic picture they presented to the world wasn't true.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-12-2009, 09:02 AM
Ah, I can tell you that you're not ugly.
yes, well, good to know that if all else fails I can live off my good looks:rolleyes:

yks 6nnetu hing
08-12-2009, 09:03 AM
Nope. I was just joking tryign to come up with what the possible "excuses" would be before they admitted that maybe the idyllic picture they presented to the world wasn't true.
and again we're back to "if people weren't so screwed up things would be a lot easier" then again, if wishes were wings, pigs could fly.

Brita
08-12-2009, 10:25 AM
Nope. I was just joking tryign to come up with what the possible "excuses" would be before they admitted that maybe the idyllic picture they presented to the world wasn't true.

I knew you were joking, must be the bond. I can sense your tongue-in-cheek.

Crispin's Crispian
08-12-2009, 10:43 AM
It happens, but sometimes women JUST PLAIN HIT MEN when they're angry. That doesn't make it RIGHT to hit them back, but hitting people PERIOD is wrong and shouldn't be tolerated.
That's pretty much what I was going for, so yeah.

And for the record, I'm not suggesting that men just sit there and take it (unless they like it).

Sinistrum
08-12-2009, 11:10 PM
And for the record, I'm not suggesting that men just sit there and take it (unless they like it).

Bite me hurt me make me bleed violent sex is what I need - SP :p

Jalyn
08-13-2009, 12:51 AM
First, in my teens, I used to be one of those idiot girls that that it was just peachy to hit a guy. To the point of slugging a guy in the gut hard enough to make him throw up - and had any one of them hit back I'd have thrown a hissy fit to end all hissy fits. I, thankfully, grew out it. But, looking back, had one of those boys reacted violently... I can't say that it would have been unreasonable.

Second, emotional abuse, (er, as a note, this all takes place after the point where I thought I could throw a punch just because I was a girl) I don't know if it is worse than physical abuse - I've never dealt with physical abuse - but it's harder to understand than physical abuse, harder to explain to the people that love you. And it cuts to who you are forever. It's been over a decade since I cut myself off from that relationship and, at least to an extent, I still define myself by what happened while I was trapped.

Trust is eroded. The idea that there can be a reciprocal relatinship is eroded. And, somehow, I end up judging myself by the standards that were set in that relationship even when the other party would never use those standards.

I can tell you that I've never been physically harmed by my ex. If I were to be completely honest and I am only going by my life experience - I wish he'd have thrown a punch. I never walked away from what I put up with from him and it makes me feel pathetic and weak but, even then, had he ever hit me, I'd have walked away. I understood that the man I loved shouldn't hit me. I didn't understand that he shouldn't make me feel like my purpose was to make him happy - and that there was nothing wrong with me if I couldn't. I didn't understand that a man's entire self-worth couldn't rest on my shoulders. And I didn't understand that my own self-worth should be dependent on what I could become or do, not on what I could raise someone else to be.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-13-2009, 08:07 AM
Thank you for putting that into words, Jalyn.

Ivhon
08-13-2009, 08:19 AM
First, in my teens, I used to be one of those idiot girls that that it was just peachy to hit a guy. To the point of slugging a guy in the gut hard enough to make him throw up - and had any one of them hit back I'd have thrown a hissy fit to end all hissy fits. I, thankfully, grew out it. But, looking back, had one of those boys reacted violently... I can't say that it would have been unreasonable.

Second, emotional abuse, (er, as a note, this all takes place after the point where I thought I could throw a punch just because I was a girl) I don't know if it is worse than physical abuse - I've never dealt with physical abuse - but it's harder to understand than physical abuse, harder to explain to the people that love you. And it cuts to who you are forever. It's been over a decade since I cut myself off from that relationship and, at least to an extent, I still define myself by what happened while I was trapped.

Trust is eroded. The idea that there can be a reciprocal relatinship is eroded. And, somehow, I end up judging myself by the standards that were set in that relationship even when the other party would never use those standards.

I can tell you that I've never been physically harmed by my ex. If I were to be completely honest and I am only going by my life experience - I wish he'd have thrown a punch. I never walked away from what I put up with from him and it makes me feel pathetic and weak but, even then, had he ever hit me, I'd have walked away. I understood that the man I loved shouldn't hit me. I didn't understand that he shouldn't make me feel like my purpose was to make him happy - and that there was nothing wrong with me if I couldn't. I didn't understand that a man's entire self-worth couldn't rest on my shoulders. And I didn't understand that my own self-worth should be dependent on what I could become or do, not on what I could raise someone else to be.

Well said.

Sei'taer
08-13-2009, 08:20 AM
First, in my teens, I used to be one of those idiot girls that that it was just peachy to hit a guy. To the point of slugging a guy in the gut hard enough to make him throw up - and had any one of them hit back I'd have thrown a hissy fit to end all hissy fits. I, thankfully, grew out it. But, looking back, had one of those boys reacted violently... I can't say that it would have been unreasonable.

Second, emotional abuse, (er, as a note, this all takes place after the point where I thought I could throw a punch just because I was a girl) I don't know if it is worse than physical abuse - I've never dealt with physical abuse - but it's harder to understand than physical abuse, harder to explain to the people that love you. And it cuts to who you are forever. It's been over a decade since I cut myself off from that relationship and, at least to an extent, I still define myself by what happened while I was trapped.

Trust is eroded. The idea that there can be a reciprocal relatinship is eroded. And, somehow, I end up judging myself by the standards that were set in that relationship even when the other party would never use those standards.

I can tell you that I've never been physically harmed by my ex. If I were to be completely honest and I am only going by my life experience - I wish he'd have thrown a punch. I never walked away from what I put up with from him and it makes me feel pathetic and weak but, even then, had he ever hit me, I'd have walked away. I understood that the man I loved shouldn't hit me. I didn't understand that he shouldn't make me feel like my purpose was to make him happy - and that there was nothing wrong with me if I couldn't. I didn't understand that a man's entire self-worth couldn't rest on my shoulders. And I didn't understand that my own self-worth should be dependent on what I could become or do, not on what I could raise someone else to be.

Right there with you, Jalyn. I know exactly how you feel. Except in my case I felt that for some reason I wasn't "man" enough to handle it. I still have little problems that pop up here and there. For instance, nobody give me an "or else" ultimatum. Nobody, because if your bad enough to do it, I'll take "or else" and we'll see, fuck you very much. I also keep a wall up. I guess I do that because I figure if you're outside that, you can't do anything to me.

I was married for 2 years to my current wife before I mentioned one night that I hated strawberries. They tasted nasty and I didn't like to eat them. She would put strawberries in salad and make straberry shortcake, and I just figured it wasn't worth the fight so I never said anything. Turns out there was no fight about it. She wanted to know why I didn't tell her because she would have skipped them on my stuff and that was it.

Zanguini
08-13-2009, 08:30 AM
Nerds are ussually kinder gentler lovers. And Nerds gennerally seek out their own.

Ivhon
08-13-2009, 08:35 AM
Right there with you, Jalyn. I know exactly how you feel. Except in my case I felt that for some reason I wasn't "man" enough to handle it. I still have little problems that pop up here and there. For instance, nobody give me an "or else" ultimatum. Nobody, because if your bad enough to do it, I'll take "or else" and we'll see, fuck you very much. I also keep a wall up. I guess I do that because I figure if you're outside that, you can't do anything to me.

I was married for 2 years to my current wife before I mentioned one night that I hated strawberries. They tasted nasty and I didn't like to eat them. She would put strawberries in salad and make straberry shortcake, and I just figured it wasn't worth the fight so I never said anything. Turns out there was no fight about it. She wanted to know why I didn't tell her because she would have skipped them on my stuff and that was it.

It is for this that I study.

Sei'taer
08-13-2009, 08:57 AM
It is for this that I study.

You could probably do a thesis on how f'ed up my ex is. I'm fine though:D

Ivhon
08-13-2009, 08:59 AM
You could probably do a thesis on how f'ed up my ex is. I'm fine though:D

Of course you are. Why don't you have a seat on the couch there, anyway, minion number o...aahhh, ST, and we can talk about it.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-13-2009, 09:08 AM
I can tell you that I've never been physically harmed by my ex. If I were to be completely honest and I am only going by my life experience - I wish he'd have thrown a punch. I never walked away from what I put up with from him and it makes me feel pathetic and weak but, even then, had he ever hit me, I'd have walked away. I understood that the man I loved shouldn't hit me. I didn't understand that he shouldn't make me feel like my purpose was to make him happy - and that there was nothing wrong with me if I couldn't. I didn't understand that a man's entire self-worth couldn't rest on my shoulders. And I didn't understand that my own self-worth should be dependent on what I could become or do, not on what I could raise someone else to be.
That's exactly what I meant Jalyn

I have a... strained relationship with my dad. I wouldn't call it emotional abuse, simply because I know that 1) I'm oversensitive to anything coming from him and 2) he means well.

On the one hand I crave his attention and approval, on the other I know that once I have his attention I will not like it. I will show him something I'm proud of and he'll give constructive criticism which I'll hear as "you're stupid and untalented", which I know for a fact isn't his intention, it just comes out like that. and, at the same time I'm expected to happily give glowing reviews to whatever it is he's busy with.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-13-2009, 09:12 AM
On the one hand I crave his attention and approval, on the other I know that once I have his attention I will not like it. I will show him something I'm proud of and he'll give constructive criticism which I'll hear as "you're stupid and untalented", which I know for a fact isn't his intention, it just comes out like that. and, at the same time I'm expected to happily give glowing reviews to whatever it is he's busy with.

"Your dad and my dad should get together and go bowling." John Bender, The Breakfast Club.

Brita
08-13-2009, 10:52 AM
I can tell you that I've never been physically harmed by my ex. If I were to be completely honest and I am only going by my life experience - I wish he'd have thrown a punch. I never walked away from what I put up with from him and it makes me feel pathetic and weak but, even then, had he ever hit me, I'd have walked away. I understood that the man I loved shouldn't hit me.

Yes, I can see that. I still don't think emotional abuse is worse, both are awful. They both have their own unique difficulties. This is definitely a valid point.

Davian93
08-13-2009, 11:10 AM
Yes, I can see that. I still don't think emotional abuse is worse, both are awful. They both have their own unique difficulties. This is definitely a valid point.

Agreed.

I think women can be really vicious (the bad ones) when it comes to emotionaly abusing their partner. I've seen women that straight tear their guy down regardless of the circumstances or location. I see it happen when we're out all the time. The guy can do nothing right (especially when it comes to their kids) and she constantly berates him to the point where he is afraid to do anything at all. Its a control mechanism and it can be very effective. So you see these emotionally and mentally castrated men who then take their perceived inadequacies out on others because they can't handle confronting their spouse. It can be ridiculous at times.

Note: I'm not implying that women are worse than men at this, just saying I see far more emotional abuse perpetrated by females then physical.

Brita
08-13-2009, 11:25 AM
Agreed.

I think women can be really vicious (the bad ones) when it comes to emotionaly abusing their partner. I've seen women that straight tear their guy down regardless of the circumstances or location. I see it happen when we're out all the time. The guy can do nothing right (especially when it comes to their kids) and she constantly berates him to the point where he is afraid to do anything at all. Its a control mechanism and it can be very effective. So you see these emotionally and mentally castrated men who then take their perceived inadequacies out on others because they can't handle confronting their spouse. It can be ridiculous at times.

Note: I'm not implying that women are worse than men at this, just saying I see far more emotional abuse perpetrated by females then physical.

Absolutely. I think it is very common. That is one thing, emotional abuse is far more widespread than physical abuse. And often marriages end up with back and forth emotional abuse from both. Try to untangle that web....very difficult to heal the relationship once that has started.

StrangePackage
08-13-2009, 01:37 PM
Bite me hurt me make me bleed violent sex is what I need - SP :p

I swear- you hit on ONE Klingon female, just ONE... and you're marked for life.

Literally :D

Gilshalos Sedai
08-13-2009, 01:40 PM
Dude, she looked she wanted to pick you up and carry you back to her lair over her shoulder.


And I'm pretty sure she could have done it.

JSUCamel
08-13-2009, 06:57 PM
An article on abuse:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/personal/08/13/helping.abused.friend/index.html

Jenny confided that she too was a survivor of domestic abuse and was blown away that only after she'd escaped her abuser did friends come forward to tell her how much they'd loathed her husband. "No one said anything when I was in it and needed help -- so that was why I was speaking up."

The most important thing you can do for a friend in a terrible situation is to let her know that you're a safe person for her to confide in. One of the most insidious things abusers do is cut their partners off from friends and family.

Kurtz
08-13-2009, 08:02 PM
So sexism is frowned upon now?

*makes note*

Davian93
08-14-2009, 11:24 AM
Don't you love it when everything is simplied into chart form?

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8085/womensbrain.jpg

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/589/manbrain.jpg

Brita
08-14-2009, 11:56 AM
Hmpff!

That chart is totally ridiculous. You hear me? Totally and unbelievably immature and assinine.

I don't care if you disagree- it's stupid and that's that.

~~starts crying~~