Teslyn, Edesina didn't know Tuon?

[Toss the dice]

In KoD, there is a part where Luca tells the AS that Tuon is a Seanchan High Lady. That led to them harassing her into negotiating on behalf of the Seanchan. Which in turn led to Tuon collaring Joline and Teslyn and that little row.

Now. In WH in the last scene Mat, etc have in that book, their plan on escaping Ebou Dar is in motion. Teslyn and Edesina were RIGHT THERE when Egeanin freaked out when she saw Tuon held and gagged and called her the Daughter of the Nine Moons. Seconds later, Mat shouts that she is the Daughter of the Nine Moons during his half of the wedding ceremony.

So. Did Teslyn and Edesina simply forget that they heard Tuon being called the Daughter of the Nine Moons not once but twice? And if they didn't forget, what do they think that title means? That she is the daughter of a fisherman? Not to mention the circumstances in which all of that happened. It was obvious to anybody that Tuon was a VERY high-standing person. Even a dense person would have to believe she was at least a High Lady of some sort.

Any thoughts? Did they just forget?

[Terez]

No one knew what 'Daughter of the Nine Moons' meant, for one thing. For another, it's not clear that they were 'right there' when it was said, or that they were paying attention.

[Toss the dice]

I can somewhat agree about your comment concerning that they didn't know what Daughter of the Nine Moons means. Yet at the same time, you would have to be more than stupid to not put two and two together after that title was VERY much emphasized more than once in a short amount of time, in addition to the overall circumstances of the whole deal.

But they WERE right there when this happened, with their faces to the floor after Egeanin freaked out and called her the Daughter of the Nine Moons. While there is more than enough evidence to not even need to mention it, they ALSO had a good second or two to see Tuon before they were pulled to the floor by the sul'dam.

Also, I admit there could be some sort of theoretical argument that they were distracted, one of the reasons being that they had their faces on the floor. I don't know about you, but if I have my face to the floor and theres talking of any sort going on, I can "hear and comprehend" it better than normal. The whole blind men having keener hearing, etc thing.

Edit: My verdict is that either the AS are beyond stupid, were somehow so scared that they were oblivious to pretty much EVERYTHING going on around them, or RJ messed up. I can't think of another reason.

[Weird Harold]

So. Did Teslyn and Edesina simply forget that they heard Tuon being called the Daughter of the Nine Moons not once but twice? And if they didn't forget, what do they think that title means?

To add further to the inconsistencies, Setalle Anan should have known the significance of "The Daughter of the Nine Moons" although she wasn't present at Mat's half of the wedding. Egeanin/Leilwinn definitely knows both the signifigance of the name and the person -- whether under the veil as the 'High Lady Tuon" or with the veil lifted as 'The Daughter of the Nine Moons.' TheAes Sedai should have made the connection simply from the deference Egeanin and the suldam show her and if they'd shown any sort of curiosity about the Seanchan by asking questions of their traveling companions. :rolleyes:

I think the whole situation has to be charged to RJ's theme of "nobody talks to anyone else and everybody s working from incomplete data and erroneous assumptions."

Teslyn and Edesina's view of Mat's half of the wedding was more one of ignoring a lover's spat that was irrelevant to them than one of absorbing critical information.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yet at the same time, you would have to be more than stupid to not put two and two together after that title was VERY much emphasized more than once in a short amount of time, in addition to the overall circumstances of the whole deal.Well, they did pass the test for the shawl, so they're well endowed in the stupidity department.

[greatwolf]

Mat did not know the significance of DoNM title till Egeanin told him. The AS only heard Tuon's title. Nothing more. Certainly they would know she was high blood, but how much more can they be certain of?

Even now Mat knows very little about Tuon. The AS are probably very confused. If Tuon was of higher rank than Suroth, then the seanchan ought to be mounting a very big manhunt. But there's none. So they cannot realistically expect that Tuon is of high status or at least not higher than Suroth or the other high blood.

[Enigma]

If you want to be charitable you could say that at the time the Aes Sedai were on the edge of a nervous breakdown. They had gone from being the top of the pile as far as social standing goes in the world to being made damane.

Their training was far from complete and the hope of rescue by Mat enabled them to hold on to who they were a bit longer than most but from a mental point of view I doubt if they were very much in a good state of mind.

Then Mat rides in to the rescue and the first part of the plan kicks off. The heart starts to beat a lot faster, the stomach gets twisted up in a knot. They want to get out of the palace asap so they can get the collars off. Then there is a change in plan and someone spots them. Worse its a noble. The game is up they have been caught, no escape, they have to go back to the damane kennels with no hope of ever geing rescued etc.

I don't think it is stretching to say that the two Aes Sedai may not have been their usual cool analitical manipulators right then. Even after their capture notice how the two AS who were captured tend to shout a lot more that the sister who was in hiding but never capture of the more typical AS who were never in that sort of danger who rarely if ever rases her voice.

[Toss the dice]

Mat did not know the significance of DoNM title till Egeanin told him. The AS only heard Tuon's title. Nothing more. Certainly they would know she was high blood, but how much more can they be certain of?

That's just the thing greatwolf. My thread is referring to the fact that the AS didn't know she was even a High Lady until Luca told them. Scratch Daughter of the Nine Moons (even though they heard it back in Ebou Dar). Immediately after finding out from Luca that Tuon WAS a High Lady of some sort, they started pestering her into negotiations. They didn't know that she was the Daughter of the Nine Moons until Mat and Tuon were officially wed and after.

I know what you're saying and agree Enigma. I suppose I will just chalk it up to Teslyn and Edesina having extremely one-track minds in the process of being rescued. One-track in that they were nervous as all hell and about ready to piss themselves from both anxiety and fear. Which is understandable in their position.

Given that I agree with you and what I said above, I have one more little thing to throw out. Put yourself in Teslyn or Edesina's shoes. You are a complete wreck, on the verge of being rescued from being a bloody dam'ane of all things. You very much fear that at any moment, things will go south and you'll be recaptured.

Now. Given the circumstances of what went down with Tuon (it was hardly a minor thing), I would be VERY much interested in this slim little woman who very obviously is at least a POTENTIAL threat to my escape. I would be watching everything and everyone, almost sure that the proverbial axe was going to fall any second. Now given that and everything else, wouldn't you think at least ONE of the two AS present would have even really remembered this? Then maybe two days from then when things have settled down some you may just think to yourself, "hmm. who the hell is she?" Enough "whatever" would exist for me to at the very least be somewhat curious if not downright suspicious or very curious as to exactly who or what this mystery woman THAT'S STILL WITH US is!

Meanwhile, you're sharing a bloody wagon with 3 sul'dam, one of whom made you eat the floor when that little Tuon thing happened in the first place. Hmm. Do you think the sul'dam know anything? I've been just so busy sitting here on my ass that I don't know if I have the time to ask them, let alone anyone.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Given the circumstances of what went down with Tuon (it was hardly a minor thing), I would be VERY much interested in this slim little woman who very obviously is at least a POTENTIAL threat to my escape. I would be watching everything and everyone, almost sure that the proverbial axe was going to fall any second.Are you sure?

After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?
I think that you would do what you had been trained to do: ignore everything around you until you got orders to do otherwise. And I definitely think that's what the two Leashed Ones did then.

[Weird Harold]

Are you sure?

After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?

From the fall of Ebou Dar to the kidnapping of Tuon was 53 days, three days shy of two WOT months and a full seven days shy of two real world months, so not "literally months." "Nearly months" would be more accurate. :D

The desription of their arrival doesn't support your contention of being conditioned to ignore "their betters" -- which to an unbroken Aes Sedai is an oxymoron.

When Egeanin strode through that doorway, he sagged on the spear in relief. Two sui'dam entered after her, and Domon followed. Mat got his first look at Edesina to know who he was seeing, though he did recall her from one day when the damane were being exercised, a slender handsome woman in one of those plain gray dresses, with black hair spilling to her waist. Despite the a'dam leashing her to Seta's wrist, Edesina looked about her calmly. An Aes Sedai on a leash, perhaps, but an Aes Sedai confident that leash was coming off soon. Teslyn, on the other hand, was a quivering mass of eagerness, licking her lips and staring at the door to the stableyard. Renna and Seta hurried the two Aes Sedai along behind Egeanin without taking their eyes from the stableyard door.

[GonzoTheGreat]

From the fall of Ebou Dar to the kidnapping of Tuon was 53 days, three days shy of two WOT months and a full seven days shy of two real world months, so not "literally months." "Nearly months" would be more accurate. :DI'm willing to offer "nearly literally months". Is that acceptable?

[Enigma]

After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?
I think that you would do what you had been trained to do: ignore everything around you until you got orders to do otherwise. And I definitely think that's what the two Leashed Ones did then.

I would see it slightly different. While in the palace waiting to get out the two Aes Sedai are on edge etc as I said earlier on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

Once they got out of the city their confidence would begin to return a bit. They still have the emotional scars but they are getting more and more away from the damane role and back to the Aes Sedai role.

Yes they have an interest in Tuon but I would guess a big part of them wants to have nothing to do with the Seanchan ever again. Added to that they now have a nice shiny close pal of the Dragon Reborn right in front of them. What Aes Sedai could ignore that? I would guess a lot of their time was devoted to trying to get a string tied to Mat if not take control.

Mat is of course not the easiest to control and I would guess they have to spend more and more time trying to figure him out and not have so much time left for Tuon until her imporance is shoved into their face.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Added to that, they were probably distracted by the (former) sul'dam too. Officially, those may not have been as important as Tuon, but that may not have been what their subconscious told them.

[Toss the dice]

Are you sure?

After having spend literally months of being beaten (and otherwise punished) whenever someone even suspected that you were paying a trifle too much attention to the affairs of your betters?
I think that you would do what you had been trained to do: ignore everything around you until you got orders to do otherwise. And I definitely think that's what the two Leashed Ones did then.

I don't believe this for a second.

However, any combination of being scared spitless, distracted, nervous, etc, etc seems to be about the best option we have.

[greatwolf]

That's just the thing greatwolf. My thread is referring to the fact that the AS didn't know she was even a High Lady until Luca told them.

That's Mat's assumption, and Luca denied it. 'High Lady' means nothing to AS. I don't think damane are given lessons on seanchan hierachy and politics. Besides, Mor and Karyde are very certain that the RLers wouldn't know who Tuon is.

Assuming the AS would attach any special significance to Tuon's high ladyship is merely conjecture. If mat says he is to marry her, so what? What's wrong with him marrying any high lady?

Teslyn and Edesina probably think Suroth is in charge in Ebou dar. And they want Tuon to intercede with her and ultimately the empress to stop the war. The only stupidity there is that they thought the scheme would work.

[Toss the dice]

That's Mat's assumption, and Luca denied it. 'High Lady' means nothing to AS. I don't think damane are given lessons on seanchan hierachy and politics. Besides, Mor and Karyde are very certain that the RLers wouldn't know who Tuon is.

Assuming the AS would attach any special significance to Tuon's high ladyship is merely conjecture. If mat says he is to marry her, so what? What's wrong with him marrying any high lady?

Teslyn and Edesina probably think Suroth is in charge in Ebou dar. And they want Tuon to intercede with her and ultimately the empress to stop the war. The only stupidity there is that they thought the scheme would work.

I don't even know how to respond to this, other than to simply tell you to read books WH-KoD. You have read them right?

[Enigma]

Damane might not have formal classes on the Seanchan nobility but they do pick up things if Egwene's time is anything to go by.

It is possible I suppose that the two Aes Sedai were so rigid in their resistance to being made damane that they did not talk with some of the native damane. Even so one would think that unless they were deaf they would know that High Lady = senior nobility ih the Seanchan empire.

[Weird Harold]

Iwonder how much Mat's cover story for Valan Luca and the curcus hands of a runaway maid had to do with the Aes Sedai not connecting Tuon with someone of importance.

[GonzoTheGreat]

AS are familiar with the "High Lord" and High Lady" terms, since there are a bunch of those in Tear.

[greatwolf]

Damane might not have formal classes on the Seanchan nobility but they do pick up things if Egwene's time is anything to go by.

It is possible I suppose that the two Aes Sedai were so rigid in their resistance to being made damane that they did not talk with some of the native damane. Even so one would think that unless they were deaf they would know that High Lady = senior nobility ih the Seanchan empire.

It is that connection that pushed them to confront Tuon. Just that she is seanchan nobility, and not her specific status in seanchan heirachy.

Teslyn's captivity was marked by resistance. And latter the attempts to break her down. And reds are not known for making friends. Even if she did, no one would tell her more than that since Tuon was under the veil.

I don't even know how to respond to this

Of course, you don't have anything to say. You can't:p

[Toss the dice]

Of course, you don't have anything to say. You can't:p

You're a moron.

[greatwolf]

Oh, how sweet.

[Enigma]

It is that connection that pushed them to confront Tuon. Just that she is seanchan nobility, and not her specific status in seanchan heirachy.

It does seem that the Aes Sedai don't fully grasp Tuon's status as they talk about her sending a message to the leader of the return. Clearly they don't grasp that she is the leader. It would seem that she think she is some random noble.

Yet you would have to think that even if they were in a panic/nervous breakdown in the palance once they got out they could not have failed to notice how well dressed Tuon was before Mat put her in the disguise. I seem to remember her originally having jewels as well, some sort of headband or such. One would have though that they would figure out she was a noble from the way she was dressed if nothing else.

[greatwolf]

One would have though that they would figure out she was a noble from the way she was dressed if nothing else.

Egeanin is also a noble. Yet she is obviously not reckoned with by the AS. I think they knew next to nothing of Tuon or seanchan heirachy. And they are not likely to learn it from dressing. Was mat able to tell Tuon's rank from dressing? He clearly noted she was rich, but still couldn't place her in the heirachy

If they had met her, they'd have known she was der suldam and Teslyn and Edesina wouldn't want any part of her.

[Weird Harold]

It does seem that the Aes Sedai don't fully grasp Tuon's status as they talk about her sending a message to the leader of the return. Clearly they don't grasp that she is the leader. It would seem that she think she is some random noble.

Yet you would have to think that even if they were in a panic/nervous breakdown in the palance once they got out they could not have failed to notice how well dressed Tuon was before Mat put her in the disguise. I seem to remember her originally having jewels as well, some sort of headband or such. One would have though that they would figure out she was a noble from the way she was dressed if nothing else.
There are so many indictions that Tuon is far more than a simple noblewoman that event he lowliest damane should have had drilled into her that why it took so long for them to make the connection is indeed curious.

That fact that Tuon was completely bald when kidnapped should have been a small clue, especially with the way Egeanin reacted to having her head shaved to disguise the partially shaven hair of a Low Blood.

Even if the former damane didn't recognise the signifigance of how much hair was shaven, Setalle Anan knew what it meant.

There had to be more than Valan Luca's presumed bragging about having a High Lady's warrant of protection to bring them to start badgering Tuon.

Perhaps rumors or something they picked up on their "walks" through the various towns (and/or mingling with the crowds attending the circus) added to Luca's bragging?

[greatwolf]

That fact that Tuon was completely bald when kidnapped should have been a small clue,

To what? Mat knew she was bald,and despite Suroth jumping for Tuon in front of him, he didn't think it meant anyhting. Remember he spent some time after the encounter thinking about it. Nor did Tylin. So why would the former damane be any wiser?

There had to be more than Valan Luca's presumed bragging about having a High Lady's warrant of protection to bring them to start badgering Tuon.

Of course there is. Fear of failure. They need something to ameliorate their failure.

[Toss the dice]

I've already pretty much given my say and opinions on this issue, but I will comment again on something that I think a couple of you aren't really getting.

Talk and discussion on Tuon being more than a mere noblewoman or even up to being a ruler of a sort, heir, whatever....is all well and good. I can see a very legitimate reason (more than one) why the AS SHOULD or at least could see something more than a noblewoman. But that really wasn't even the point I made this post about.

My point was that Edesina and Teslyn (and so Joline later on as well) should have hands-down seen AT LEAST A NOBLE. Someone of rank and influence, which they apparently only learned once Valan Luca told them, at least according to Mat. Maybe they picked up some stuff and had been putting pieces in their mind together on the journey before Luca told them, I don't know. My point was that they (Edesina and Teslyn) should have known Tuon was at least a noble/high-lady and had rank of SOME sort in Ebou Dar. Not weeks later on the road only after Luca told them.

Again, Daughter of the Nine Moons talk is very relevant to this discussion, but a couple of you (like greatwolf) seem to think that my original point was hinging somehow on that title. Luca didn't even tell them she was anything but a "high lady" (or noble, someone of rank and influence, blah blah). As soon as he told them that, they IMMEDIATELY started harassing her. Why would they suddenly start negotiating and being classic AS to their toenails if they knew all along? Because they apparently didn't. And that is the point greatwolf.

Another minor point of mine was that the AS should have at least been curious enough to ask questions. AS pry into everything and just HAVE to know everything about everybody. Hell, I would expect the AS to have asked many questions about Tuon even if it was plain to everyone she was nothing but a Seanchan commoner. For the sole reason that she is traveling with them. If they do ask questions, it's not stated in the books.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Luca didn't even tell them she was anything but a "high lady" (or noble, someone of rank and influence, blah blah). As soon as he told them that, they IMMEDIATELY started harassing her. Why would they suddenly start negotiating and being classic AS to their toenails if they knew all along? Because they apparently didn't. And that is the point greatwolf.They might have suddenly realised that she was high ranking enough to impress Mat. That takes some doing, and that told them that she was important enough for them to take her rank serious.

[Weird Harold]

To what? Mat knew she was bald,and despite Suroth jumping for Tuon in front of him, he didn't think it meant anyhting. Remember he spent some time after the encounter thinking about it. Nor did Tylin. So why would the former damane be any wiser?

Neither Tylin or Mat are damane being trained proper behavior before varying degrees of the High and Low Bloods.

Setalle Anan would know that completely shaved is the highest possible status if nobody else does because that is the kind of thing innkeepers have to know to avoid offending their guests.

The information that varying degree of shaving marks Seanchan nobility and people like Egeanin or Abaldar Yulan cover their baldness obsessively because it is a death sentence to impersonate royalty.

The information was availble if the Aes Sedai were paying attention or asking any questions at all.

[Weird Harold]

My point was that Edesina and Teslyn (and so Joline later on as well) should have hands-down seen AT LEAST A NOBLE. Someone of rank and influence, which they apparently only learned once Valan Luca told them, at least according to Mat.

Perhaps it wasn't that Valan Luca told them she was 'nobility' that set them off, but that she gave him a Warrant of Protection that she clearly expected to be honored by any Seanchan, military or civilian.

Perhaps because Tuon looks young, they dismissed her as a child without any influence of her own; valuable as a hostage, but not in her own person? Their opinion changed not because they learned she was a 'High Lady' but because they learned she could issue warrants of protection.

[4Alethinos]

I hold that none of AS in the circus ever realized just who Tuon really is. She is just a smallish black girl from Seanchan with an attendant. Though her attendant/bodyguard was not held to be such except through subsequent observation.

I love the way that RJ crafted the character we know as Tuon, Daughter of the Nine Moons.

Her imperious character would just be assumed to be nothing more than uppity young woman putting on airs. Hens from the Henhouse that is the WT would be even more likely to make that conclusion than others, IMO.

As usual, bad or wrong information clutters up the landscape.

"Hmph, the very idea of that little girl asssuming such airs. Adjusts skirt to a just right position." :) :eek:

[Toss the dice]

Perhaps it wasn't that Valan Luca told them she was 'nobility' that set them off, but that she gave him a Warrant of Protection that she clearly expected to be honored by any Seanchan, military or civilian.

Perhaps because Tuon looks young, they dismissed her as a child without any influence of her own; valuable as a hostage, but not in her own person? Their opinion changed not because they learned she was a 'High Lady' but because they learned she could issue warrants of protection.

The warrant could be it. Luca may have just told the Aes Sedai who gave it to him, whether he volunteered that information first somehow or they saw it and asked about it. That would make more sense than him simply telling the AS straight out that she is a high lady or similar. Speaking of which, Mat's pov mentioned that Luca loved to boast (almost as much as he loved gold).

Not that his boasting really says anything for sure one way or the other in terms of who volunteered or asked whom, but at least to me it strengthens the evidence that it was all about the warrant, and the AS finally put 2 and 2 together from that.

[FelixPax]

There are so many indictions that Tuon is far more than a simple noblewoman that event he lowliest damane should have had drilled into her that why it took so long for them to make the connection is indeed curious.

The Aes Sedai prior to fleeing Ebou Dar with Mat's group did not move in circles, which Tuon did. After fleeing, for a good part of the trip the Aes Sedai stayed isolated from the majority of the people in the circus, let alone attempting to visit Tuon & her maid. Tuon wanted nothing to do with unleeshed damane, nor Aes Sedai as she views them too far below her status.

If the Aes Sedai moved in the same circles as Setalle Anon did, yes...they'd of very likely figured out how important of a person Tuon was much, much earlier. Setalle have the advantage seeing and dealing with the highest levels of Seanchan military officials in Ebou Dar daily as their Innkeeper.


Even if the former damane didn't recognise the signifigance of how much hair was shaven, Setalle Anan knew what it meant.

Setalle Anan had many, many more clues about Tuon's status and weeks of dealing with the highest level of Seanchan officials, officers and Der'sul'dam. The other Aes Sedai were in a totally different environment in Ebou Dar and for the majority of the trip with the circus, living with Renna, Bethamin and Seta.

The Aes Sedai simply lacked very much opportunity to learn about who Tuon was previously.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Valan Luca is really Demandred, and he was furthering chaos by exposing Tuon.

That's confirmed by Sammael's statement about "events to the south": Demandred was a well known circus performer in the AOL.

[FelixPax]

Demandred is young man playing with birds and political officials, not a man with nice calves playing with circus animals. ;o)

Although Mesaana and Demandred did and are causing a bit of chaos in Andor....

[Enigma]

I suppose one could say that they Aes Sesai had a number of opportunities to pick up that Tuon was important if not that she was the empress in waiting but at each turn something got in they way of them figuring it out.

In the palance I put it down to severe nervous exhaustion bordering on a nervous breakdown.

Then with the show as 4Alethinos said they say a young woman. In Aes Sedai culture and until recently most of the westlands the important leaders are a lot older. They could easily have seen her as some noble's child. I don't suppose it is unreasonable to believe that some really high ranking noble would have soldiers with her. As far as I recall Suroth always had deathwatch guards with her. When Tuon was kidnapped all she had was a maid.

In the real world there have been cases where people who were intelligent should have picked up clues to things but completly failed. I think the attack on Pearl Harbour was one exmaple where clues were missed.

[greatwolf]

The information was availble if the Aes Sedai were paying attention or asking any questions at all.

Well, they could have asked the suldam, but they're rather shy around them. Who else, Mat? Setalle or the circus?

Setalle Anan would know that completely shaved is the highest possible status if nobody else does because that is the kind of thing innkeepers have to know to avoid offending their guests.

The same Setalle who told Egeanin she doesn't know who outranks who?

Again, Daughter of the Nine Moons talk is very relevant to this discussion, but a couple of you (like greatwolf) seem to think that my original point was hinging somehow on that title

Nice somersault dear.

My point was that they (Edesina and Teslyn) should have known Tuon was at least a noble/high-lady and had rank of SOME sort in Ebou Dar. Not weeks later on the road only after Luca told them.

IIRC, Tuon was initially held in a wagon with redarms standing guard. Later, the guards went, and Mat started taking walks with her. And she started moving around freely and changed her dresses.

Without information, anyone would think she was initially a hostage, and later Mat decided to free on sentiment. He has this reputation you see. :) Before she is allowed to go, the AS intend to make some use of her.

If they actually realized she was heir to th3e throne, I have no doubt they would have kidnapped her right there and ignored Mat. As a hostage, they could use her to get out of Altara and even beyond. They might even ask for an escort of seanchan soldiers all the way to the WT:)

Are you awake now?

[Toss the dice]

Well, they could have asked the suldam, but they're rather shy around them. Who else, Mat? Setalle or the circus?

Yeah, Mat, Setalle, anyone else they came into contact with, which would be a short list at least early on in the show.

The same Setalle who told Egeanin she doesn't know who outranks who?

As far as I know offhand, all that is mentioned regarding Setalle's information on Seanchan ranks is that she doesn't know if a Captain of the Green outranks a Banner-General of the DW Guards or a Captain of the Air. Besides that, one would think that Setalle would know general information concerning Seanchan ranks/nobility due to her exposure at the inn, enough to probably know what a fully shaved head means. That's just an educated guess though.

Nice somersault dear.

I assume you mean common sense. Thanks, its a gift.

IIRC, Tuon was initially held in a wagon with redarms standing guard. Later, the guards went, and Mat started taking walks with her. And she started moving around freely and changed her dresses.

What's this have to do with events in Ebou Dar, to which both Teslyn and Edesina were right there? All this really says is that the AS didn't have a good chance to talk to Tuon directly early on in the show. Later on they had plenty of chances to talk to her, well before they found out she was a high-lady.

Without information, anyone would think she was initially a hostage, and later Mat decided to free on sentiment. He has this reputation you see. :) Before she is allowed to go, the AS intend to make some use of her.

She was a hostage, to anyone and everyone, regardless of information they had or didn't have. The AS DID have information, they apparently were just too blind to see it. The original point remember?

If they actually realized she was heir to th3e throne, I have no doubt they would have kidnapped her right there and ignored Mat. As a hostage, they could use her to get out of Altara and even beyond. They might even ask for an escort of seanchan soldiers all the way to the WT:)

I could easily see them ATTEMPTING to kidnap her if they knew she was heir. Although I can't see them successfully using her as a hostage to get out of Altara let alone using an escort of Seanchan soldiers. I'm pretty sure the Seanchan in general (including Tuon) know all about the 3 oaths of AS. If they tried to take Tuon hostage or tried to get a Seanchan escort, they would probably just get killed.

Are you awake now?

Nothing you have said that would oppose my opinion on this matter makes sense or brings any sort of halfway credible evidence to bear for yourself. Which pretty much fits right into the overwhelming average for your posts.

[greatwolf]

Besides that, one would think that Setalle would know general information concerning Seanchan ranks/nobility due to her exposure at the inn, enough to probably know what a fully shaved head means.

General information?? You just made that up right?

I assume you mean common sense. Thanks, its a gift

:rolleyes:

She was a hostage, to anyone and everyone,

she was a hostage to Mat? Sorry, I didn't read that version of KoD. Please post. Or better still, publish it.

I'm pretty sure the Seanchan in general (including Tuon) know all about the 3 oaths of AS. If they tried to take Tuon hostage or tried to get a Seanchan escort, they would probably just get killed.

True enough, but you can always let a warder hold the knife. And what seanchan general will risk the slightest harm to Tuon?

The problem is that only Egeanin or the suldam could have told the AS what the significance of the DoNM is. Not even mat knew. For God's sake, he didn't even know the marriage had made him a prince! The AS couldn't ask any seanchan because the are marath damane. It is impossible for them to have had that information.

Even if Tuon had written DoNM on Luca's warrant and the AS saw it, it would still be meaningless to them. How are they to know for instance, that a lopar isn't Suroth's sojhin?

[Toss the dice]

General information?? You just made that up right?

Setalle Anan had plenty of exposure to Seanchan during the months she was running her inn. Not to mention the fact inns are great sources of information, she would have heard plenty of gossip, rumors, and facts from Seanchan and non-Seanchan alike. It isn't a certainty, but the odds are pretty decent. Like I said, an educated guess.

she was a hostage to Mat? Sorry, I didn't read that version of KoD. Please post. Or better still, publish it.

Sure, from his pov she was his future wife. But she also was a prisoner/hostage as well. She had guards, was detained in a wagon, and was not a "free" person, at least in the beginning of the show. In the beginning, nearly half of Mat's povs included him nearly soiling himself for fear she might give herself away. You obviously didn't read my version of KoD or the two books preceding it either.

True enough, but you can always let a warder hold the knife. And what seanchan general will risk the slightest harm to Tuon?

That's true.

The problem is that only Egeanin or the suldam could have told the AS what the significance of the DoNM is. Not even mat knew. For God's sake, he didn't even know the marriage had made him a prince! The AS couldn't ask any seanchan because the are marath damane. It is impossible for them to have had that information.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. The fact that the AS don't know what the DoNM means is irrelevant to this discussion. For this discussion, they absolutely DO NOT need to know that the DoNM is the heir to the throne. The only thing that "Daughter of the Nine Moons" has in relevance to this discussion is that both Egeanin and Mat shouted it in Ebou Dar with Teslyn and Edesina there. Before you go spouting more stupidity in rebuttal of this, reread my original post or better yet, this entire thread.

Even if Tuon had written DoNM on Luca's warrant and the AS saw it, it would still be meaningless to them. How are they to know for instance, that a lopar isn't Suroth's sojhin?

If Tuon had written DoNM on Luca's warrant and the AS saw it, they probably would have been very curious/suspicious, enough so that they would have been grilling anyone and everyone they could get ahold of, asking if there's any significance to that title.

Oh wait, they heard that title shouted, in combination with a whole situation in Ebou Dar that would shout that Tuon has status, rank, and influence to anyone, even a blind man. And that is the reason this thread exists, to come up with possibilities as to why the AS were so blind to Tuon's obvious high status.

Are you a troll?

[greatwolf]

Setalle Anan had plenty of exposure to Seanchan during the months she was running her inn. Not to mention the fact inns are great sources of information, she would have heard plenty of gossip, rumors, and facts from Seanchan and non-Seanchan alike

I distinctly remember the wandering woman was filled seanchan top brass. Are you suggesting that the brass types were gossiping about DoNM who was under the veil not only in public but in the presence of non seanchan?

Sure, from his pov she was his future wife. But she also was a prisoner/hostage

All three? Gosh, you're not delibrately confusing things now by any chance?

The fact that the AS don't know what the DoNM means is irrelevant to this discussion. For this discussion, they absolutely DO NOT need to know that the DoNM is the heir to the throne.

:eek:

So. Did Teslyn and Edesina simply forget that they heard Tuon being called the Daughter of the Nine Moons not once but twice? And if they didn't forget, what do they think that title means? That she is the daughter of a fisherman? Not to mention the circumstances in which all of that happened. It was obvious to anybody that Tuon was a VERY high-standing person. Even a dense person would have to believe she was at least a High Lady of some sort.

[Toss the dice]

I distinctly remember the wandering woman was filled seanchan top brass. Are you suggesting that the brass types were gossiping about DoNM who was under the veil not only in public but in the presence of non seanchan?

I mentioned nothing regarding the DoNM. You can't even stay on topic when you're directly responding to my quotes.

All three? Gosh, you're not delibrately confusing things now by any chance?

Try all two. Hence the slash between hostage and prisoner. That signifies that they are basically one and the same. I think part of the confusion is that you are thinking along the lines of hostages in movies where they use them to get ransom or something else similar. Mat had no intention of using Tuon as a hostage for money. But he did have every intention of using her as a hostage to "keep our heads attached," get away safely, that sort of thing.

I have never seen someone dig holes as deep as you or quite as fantastically. This is simple truth. I have no more wish to waste my time beating my head against a brick wall for no reason, so you will get no more replies from me in this thread.

If you want to take this for you somehow winning the argument, that's fine with me.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I distinctly remember the wandering woman was filled seanchan top brass.In that case, you distinctly remember wrong. The top brass was stationed in the palace, the almost-but-not-quite top brass was stationed in the inns close to the palace (of which the Wandering Woman was one), the still lower ranking ones were farther away.

[Enigma]

My memory of the event was that ther were a lot of generals and the like at the inn as it was close to the palace. You might say that there were other officers who were higher in the chain of command in the palace but the ones in the inn were pretty high ranking.

Some of the officers were almost working from the inn at time so they would have had lower officers such as captains comming and going with reports to them.

The higher ups might know to guard their tongues more than the common soldiers but I would have though that she would have picked up some information.

Are we sure in fact that the inn keeper did not know that Tuon was important. I don't recall her ever saying anything one way or another and she seemed pretty neutral on the whole Tuon v Aes Sedai. Tuon enjoyed her company and while they were not close friends they were becoming friendly.

[greatwolf]

My memory of the event was that ther were a lot of generals and the like at the inn as it was close to the palace

Not just a lot, suroth practically ran there when she heard the news of an army vanishing. I suppose Tuon might have been on the way there as well before she decided to take a romantic outing with mat instead.

I would have given you the quote Enigma (its in what the aelfin said, book nine)but i don't have them here at the office.

E : Tuon enjoyed her company and while they were not close friends they were becoming friendly.

and how much of that is just the natural kinship between two people who can channel?