Speculation [Archive] - Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums

Terez

08-24-2009, 10:38 AM

Well, I finished my reread a couple of months early. Now I've started thinking about what major events will be taking place in TGS, based on where everyone currently is.

Rand: Arranging a meeting with the real Tuon.
He will try, but i doubt he would be successful. If he were, then Tuon would call off the attack on the White Tower, and we know that won't happen. Most likely he'll end up crushing the Seanchan on the west coast, but no meeting with Tuon.

Being psychologically deconstructed now that a number of his close allies know about LTT.
Aye, but I imagine there won't be quite as much of that in this book as I would hope for.

Perrin: Moving with a large number of refugees. I'm going to guess he will encounter Galad and the WC since they are moving in the same direction(assuming I haven't misremembered). Will be left in a senseless daze by Faile.
It's implied by Jason's review and some things that BS said that Perrin won't be in this book much at all. But yeah, whenever we do first see him, he's got to meet up with Galad. And Byar and Bornhald.

Mat: On to save yet another AS, from the 'finns this time. Will probably be given as much gratitude for his efforts as the others have given him.
Dunno - I think Moiraine will be appreciative, but she's most likely to give most of that appreciation to Thom, of course. :)

Egwene: Battle of wills against Elaida. Will likely have her ass beaten raw repeatedly. Successful re-uniting of the tower will be achieved or closer to being achieved.
Aye, and Jason's review implies that the Black Ajah/Alviarin thing will come to a head near the end of this book.

Elayne: Continue being the most painful chapters to read.
I doubt she'll be in this one much, as no one else seems likely to be in Caemlyn. Rand and Aviendha will be mostly in Arad Doman.

Lan: Begin forming a sizable army of Malkeri and others who didn't make the cut for the borderlander's regular army.
I hope we see some of that, but I have a feeling we won't until the next book.

Ituralde: Will drive the Seanchan from Arad Doman with assistance from the army Rand has amassed there, and will be made Steward of the Dragon in AD
Or king, even!

BA hunters: Will be found out by Alviaran. At least one will die, I'm guessing Yukiri.
I'm thinking that Alviarin will attempt to capture one of them (either Yukiri or Doesine, since those are the two she's got her eye on), and that might be what uncovers her.

Taim vs Logain: Due to Rands continued inaction in regards to the BT, Logain will take the initiative to fix the situation himself.
I'd put money on that being in the next book, rather than this one.

Aran'gar: Possibly take shelter with Graendel. Proceed to get in each others way.
I'd guess that both will be taken care of in this book. Graendal might escape, though.

Cadsuane: Will put Semi to the question.
I wonder how that will go. It will be interesting, I think.

Ishara

08-24-2009, 10:56 AM

I am really, really wanting to see the Perrin/ Galad/ Morgase/ Byar/ Bornhald/ Berelian reunion. Really. It won't ncessarily be integral to the plot, but man will it be entertaining. Can you imagine the PoVs? :D

4Alethinos

08-24-2009, 12:07 PM

I suspect that Rand's meeting with Logain set in motion a resolution of the problems in the BT. However, I suspect that many, possibly including Taim, will escape to become future dreadlords for the DO's armies.

Do not forget that the Trolloc losses have not even cut into their birth rate. It only takes about 5 to 7 years for a Trolloc to reach fighting maturity. So there is plenty of work for dreadlords. The Forsaken are becoming somewhat fewer.

There may be a Seanchan attack on the WT, but it is doomed to fail. I also wonder when we may see Egwene's head on the chopping block awaiting rescue from whomever.

"From the Oatman Prophecies." :)

Oatman

08-24-2009, 04:31 PM

I still think it unlikely that Perrin would see any reason to meet any more Whitecloaks

Aside from needing some more soldiers to defend the refugees from the Shaido who are still in the area? And to test the WC dedication to ally with whoever they can to fight the Seanchan/Shadow?(Perrin just finished a temporary alliance with Seanchan, and some think that he IS shadowspawn)

You missed Aviendha and the Borderlanders

Avi is with the army massing in AD so I didn't really miss her. Though I do see her becoming a more likable character outside of the influence of Elayne and Nyn. And a possibly awesome scene when Rand gets her and Min alone...

As for the Borderlanders, Bashere will likely be given the smack down by his Queen(name escapes me at the moment), and some type of arrangement will be made for them to meet Rand. Over the course of the books there will be sufficient deaths for Perrin to become king of Saldea!

I'll also add another prediction that Tam will reveal Morgase as being who she is, based on a theory of mine that they have met before.

"From the Oatman Prophecies."

I like it!

Terez

08-24-2009, 05:09 PM

Aside from needing some more soldiers to defend the refugees from the Shaido who are still in the area?
He doesn't really need that, since as soon as he meets up with them, he can have Grady and Neald gate them to their respective homes, or to the Two Rivers, if they all decide to stay in Faile's service (they did give her oaths of fealty).

And to test the WC dedication to ally with whoever they can to fight the Seanchan/Shadow?(Perrin just finished a temporary alliance with Seanchan, and some think that he IS shadowspawn)
I imagine that Perrin is of the mind that fighting the Shadow is more important, especially after his experience with Tylee. But Byar and Bornhald will have to be convinced that Perrin is not a Darkfriend. That's where Galad's smooth-talking abilities come in.

Avi is with the army massing in AD so I didn't really miss her. Though I do see her becoming a more likable character outside of the influence of Elayne and Nyn. And a possibly awesome scene when Rand gets her and Min alone...
I wouldn't count on that one...

As for the Borderlanders, Bashere will likely be given the smack down by his Queen(name escapes me at the moment), and some type of arrangement will be made for them to meet Rand. Over the course of the books there will be sufficient deaths for Perrin to become king of Saldea!
I'm hoping that Kiruna will be involved in the arrangements with the Borderlanders. I doubt that Perrin and Faile will be crowned before the Last Battle, though.

I'll also add another prediction that Tam will reveal Morgase as being who she is, based on a theory of mine that they have met before.
Meh, I'm quite sure she'll be revealed before then (as in, as soon as Perrin's group meets up with Galad's).

Weird Harold

08-24-2009, 05:24 PM

He doesn't really need that, since as soon as he meets up with them, he can have Grady and Neald gate them to their respective homes, or to the Two Rivers, if they all decide to stay in Faile's service (they did give her oaths of fealty).

That's not going to happen for a couple of days at laeast, because Perrin is concerned about overworking Grady and Neald. Without the drive to rescue Faile pushing him, Perrin's going to give them a couple of days to recover before he gates any large numbers anywhere.

That's probably the only thing that will keep Perrin in the area so Berlaine can fulfill min's viewing of falling head over heels for a man in white.

Terez

08-24-2009, 05:25 PM

That's not going to happen for a couple of days at laeast, because Perrin is concerned about overworking Grady and Neald.
That's not long enough to need an army of Whitecloaks to guard them...

Oatman

08-24-2009, 05:56 PM

I imagine that Perrin is of the mind that fighting the Shadow is more important, especially after his experience with Tylee. But Byar and Bornhald will have to be convinced that Perrin is not a Darkfriend. That's where Galad's smooth-talking abilities come in.

I meant that because Perrin had just allied with the Seanchan the WC might think of it as the friend of our enemy is our enemy, but whatever, same end result.

I wouldn't count on that one...

Stop crushing my hopes and dreams!

I doubt that Perrin and Faile will be crowned before the Last Battle, though.

Yeah, I agree.

Meh, I'm quite sure she'll be revealed before then (as in, as soon as Perrin's group meets up with Galad's)

You do realise that Tam is currently in Perrins group? How is it more likely that Perrins 'maid' will meet Galad in a few days time than meet his 2IC soon after the rescue?

That's not going to happen for a couple of days at laeast, because Perrin is concerned about overworking Grady and Neald. Without the drive to rescue Faile pushing him, Perrin's going to give them a couple of days to recover before he gates any large numbers anywhere.

Yup!

Terez

08-24-2009, 08:33 PM

You do realise that Tam is currently in Perrins group? How is it more likely that Perrins 'maid' will meet Galad in a few days time than meet his 2IC soon after the rescue?
I thought you said Taim. Which, granted, made no sense whatsoever. And what is up with these random abbreviations? How hard is it to write something out so that people don't have to wonder what the hell you're talking about?

the silent speaker

08-24-2009, 09:23 PM

Regarding Alviarin, there is also the matter of the letter she sent Rand, which has been chekhoved more than once and most recently by Egwene in KOD. That has to play a role.

Weird Harold

08-24-2009, 09:27 PM

That's not long enough to need an army of Whitecloaks to guard them...
It is long enough for Perrin to be worried about defending them FROM 7,000 whitecloaks and ta'veren-ness to arrange an encounter between Berelaine and Galad.

hippie-joe

08-24-2009, 09:55 PM

I thought you said Taim. Which, granted, made no sense whatsoever. And what is up with these random abbreviations? How hard is it to write something out so that people don't have to wonder what the hell you're talking about?
2IC= second in comand. it took me a few minutes but i figured it out...

uh and berelains man in white i always thought it was a gai'shain but galad makes a lot of sense too... i'm sure his prettyness will take her attention away from ole perrin real quick. hmmm

Matoyak

08-24-2009, 10:13 PM

i'm sure his prettyness will take her attention away from ole perrin real quick. hmmm Berelain: ~sees Galad~ "ooooohhh...shiney"

EDIT: Also, I read the title of this thread as "Spectaculation". Lol.

Oatman

08-24-2009, 10:26 PM

Sorry, I thought 2IC was a fairly common abbreviation for second in command. Next time I'll be sure to be specific.

edit: New theory! Tamandred!

Matoyak

08-24-2009, 11:24 PM

New theory! Tamandred!
ROFL. Now THAT would be...not poetic...but maybe some shadow-twisted super-bastardised version of poetic...

4Alethinos

08-25-2009, 12:08 PM

From Matoyuak:

Berelain: ~sees Galad~ "ooooohhh...shiney"

That is just perfect. Whee!

I have felt that if Faile were to die then it would be Perrin. However, I also wondered if Perrin was an interest of Moiraine. I have more or less given in to the idea that it will be Thom for our lovely lady in blue. It is all irrelevant if Faile survives, of course.

I strongly doubt that we will ever see Rand with two of his loves for lovemaking at the same time. RJ is no prude, but it is not his style.

The Shaido are somewhat shattered, but they seem to be out of the picture. They are likely to get caught up in the battles that will surround the events of the Last Battle. While they are not led by nice people, they are not Darkfriends, either. I do not expect to see them in the next book. More likely to be in the second or third book of the series. I do not believe that the Wheel is done with them. They will not be able to hide in the Threefold Land from the distress that is to come.

Perrin's alliance with the Seanchan was one of convience for both sides. However, I sense that some may be underestimating his Ta'verenness. He is only second to Rand in his ability to have people conform to the weaving of the Wheel. I have no fears about his meeting with the Whitecloaks under Galad. Galad will, of course recognize his mother and that will be a fun scene. Oh my, yes. :)

I suspect that Galad will be somewhat amazed by Berelain. hehe

"Bring on the speculation, I need the opportunity to see ideas die bad deaths."

GonzoTheGreat

08-26-2009, 02:43 AM

I still think it unlikely that Perrin would see any reason to meet any more Whitecloaks. At best they are totally untrustworthy, usually they're worse. I do agree with the Faile bit.Now that I reread this (while trying to figure out where the new posts in the thread started) I see that I misspoke, and it is a rather crucial difference.

I think that it would be unreasonable for Perrin to show any kind of trust at all in Whitecloaks. I do not think it is unlikely; it is something that seems to have been planned for quite a few books now. I hope there will be a good reason why Perrin decides to meet Galad, a mere "otherwise we would have to run away a bit faster than we'd planned would not be sensible".

Oatman

08-26-2009, 08:47 AM

RJ is no prude, but it is not his style

But RJ isn't writing this book! :D

4Alethinos

08-26-2009, 12:12 PM

Yes, Brian is writing it, but under the editorship of Harriet. I seriously doubt that the way in which lovemaking has been demonstrated in the series in the past will change in any substantive fashion.

I also am somewhat amused and amazed to see some say that Avi is not nice. Who could not love a woman who could gut you like a fish if you really displeased her. She would acknowledge her toh to the other family members, but that is about it as dead is dead. She is an intensely passionate woman and an Aiel Wise One. They are best not played for fools. OTOH, we see some very suitable relationships between wise ones and their husbands. They are not like those prunes in the Red Ajah.

Even Siuan Sanche loves Gareth Bryne even though she will not admit it. She is not one to mess with, either.

"Ah love under the WoT sun." :D

Matoyak

08-26-2009, 04:35 PM

Glad you liked it, 4A, at least someone did :p :D

I wonder how hard it will be for someone as PC as Galad to fall for Berelain? Well...does the vision say HE has to fall for HER? Or just that SHE will fall for HIM? :confused:

But hey, while we are on the topic of random speculation...I have been working my way through the books (only my second-reread of the entire series. I have read most of them twice, but never in succession like this. I do not know why, rereading them. Lol.)
But my point is, I have seen almost nothing mentioned on this site about Perrin's ability to see visions in T'A'R'/WolfDream. (Granted, I only joined the site after WH released, about...a month? before Terez actually joined the forums, 3 months after she joined the site...IIRC...I think it was a few weeks before CoT released? I could be totally off-base, however) Is this something like normal "Dreaming"? I do not remember if this is how the Wise Ones have their trueDreams™ or if theirs are more like Egwene's trueDreams™ where they aren't in T'A'R' when they have them...If I am remembering correctly, aren't those only available to them when they are in vegSleep™ mode?

I guess what I am asking is whether Perrin's visions are more likely to be true than 'Dreams, like closer to Min's (obviously, not quite that close to perfect visions), or closer to the ambiguous dreams of Dreamers? Or are they select images of the future/present that show exactly that, just a photo of whatever? Bah...I am having trouble wording what I mean...

EDIT: I guess I should include at least a quote of what I am talking about by visions, eh?
As he scanned for the birds, a patch of sky darkened, became a window to somewhere else. Egwene stood among a crowd of women, fear in her eyes; slowly the women knelt around her. Nynaeve was one of them, and he believed he saw Elayne's red-gold harid. That window faded and was replaced. Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest. Mat vanished, and it was Rand. Perrin thought it was Rand. He wore rags and a rough cloak, and a bandage covered his eyes. The third window disappeared; the sky was only sky, empty except for the clouds.

perrin shivered. These wolf-dream visions never seemed to have any real connection to anything he knew. Maybe here, were things could change so easily, worry over his friends became something he could see. Whatever they were, he was wasting time fretting at them.
Considering what we know, I tend to disbelieve Perrin's opinion right there...At least, maybe worry is what called the visions up (An extension of the "need" searching method of the Wise Ones, maybe?), but we know the thing about Mat for sure...the others...?? Have they happened yet? I'm positive Rand's has not...BTW, this is like, the 4th time Perrin has had these style of visions...

bah, I wish I could have just searched that and found it rather than leafing through the book and typing it. Sheesh :p

JSUCamel

08-26-2009, 04:46 PM

Yes, Brian is writing it, but under the editorship of Harriet.

I would love to write it, but unfortunately, other than briefly meeting Harriet twice (she commented on my Camel hat), I doubt she even knows who I am.

The author you're thinking of is Brandon. Thanks for thinking of me, though.

Toss the dice

08-26-2009, 05:51 PM

I wonder how hard it will be for someone as PC as Galad to fall for Berelain? Well...does the vision say HE has to fall for HER? Or just that SHE will fall for HIM? :confused

This is mostly off topic (at least for the thread in general), but after reading KoD, I don't think of Galad near as PC as I used to. I also have quite a bit more respect for him.

Earlier on and throughout most of the books, Galad has been described as "always doing what is right." No matter who it hurts, even himself. Almost as if he was a robot that was programmed to always do the right thing.

Then I read the scene from KoD where Galad becomes a blademaster and the little bit after that. I forget exactly what it says but basically, "doing what is right" from his pov isn't even close to robotic or "in-humane" in any way. It's hard to explain, but from that pov "doing what is right" got a whole new meaning. He does what is right, and from what I've picked up from the books, his priorities are just like most anyone else's. Family, world, nation to name a few big ones. The only difference is, he actually sticks by them regardless of the cost to himself...unlike some characters.

One earlier foreshadowing of his true "nobler" thing of always doing the right thing is when he ran into Nynaeve and Elayne and somewhat shockingly, had no intention at all of turning them over to the Whitecloaks or anything else. He did what was right.

I suppose another way I could describe it is the robotic version of "always doing the right thing" is simply that, always doing the right thing, no matter who it hurts. I finally came to realize that Galad doesn't do this at all, he "always does the right thing" AFTER factoring in all related variables and everything tied to his decision. I suppose the only real different thing you could say about Galad's decision-making compared to other people is him not letting his own emotions factor into the decision.

GonzoTheGreat

08-27-2009, 02:35 AM

I think that Galad always "does what is right" because he thinks that his original mother "did what was wrong" in abandoning him.
If true, that's going to be a very severe blow to him when Rand tells him the whole story.

I do think that if they ever meet again, Rand will tell him. He hasn't told anyone else (not even Min), but Galad is "the son Shaiel loved yet had to leave behind".

Matoyak

08-27-2009, 02:51 AM

Oatman

08-27-2009, 04:13 AM

I tend to think Galad has changed over the series due to interaction with the world as opposed to life in a palace. He still does what is right regardless, but he has a broader interpretation of what doing right means.

Toss the dice

08-27-2009, 05:48 AM

Ah man, TtD...completely derailed my post. Like, you chose the part that meant the LEAST (and was a joke, besides) and pulled it that way. Lol. I was not trying to say anything about Galad's supposed PCness, I just thought the image of his stuck-upness and Berelain's forwardness was hilarious.

Anyways, can anyone answer my Perrin/Dreaming/Visioning question?

Had no intention of derailing your post in anyway, I just figured posting once in this thread with something related to one minor topic in the thread was better than creating an entirely new thread.

"This is mostly off topic (at least for the thread in general), but after reading KoD, I don't think of Galad near as PC as I used to. I also have quite a bit more respect for him."

GonzoTheGreat

08-27-2009, 06:07 AM

I think that Perrin's visions are true, but, just like Min's views, they need to be interpreted. The interpretation in the case of Perrin may be a bit more straightforward, but I don't think that it they can be taken as literal truth.

With the ones that you mentioned:
A lot of AS are indeed kneeling to Egwene, but most expect (expected) her to be happy with that, and they would have preferred it if she had gone playing at being Amyrlin Seat as they intended. Only a minority of AS really acknowledges her as being worthy of her title, and even fewer pay it more than lip service.
In the case of Mat, it is probably rather symbolic. He is tied by fate to do what he has to do, and the outward signs of that are his spear and his medallion. He snarls against it, but he is not willing to do what it would take to escape (like killing Tuon), so that he remains bound.
In the case of Rand, that may be just another disguise Rand is going to use. More likely, it is symbolic too, at least in part.

We, the readers, are a lot better at figuring out what it all could mean because we have lots of info that Perrin does not have. Since he does not have the ability to interpret his visions, I don't think you can say they are quite as clear as Min's views are in the cases where she can interpret those.

Weird Harold

08-27-2009, 11:02 AM

Anyways, can anyone answer my Perrin/Dreaming/Visioning question?

http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/4_prophecy/4.6_perrin-drm.html answers most of your qustions.

Matoyak

08-28-2009, 12:17 AM

Had no intention of derailing your post in anyway, I just figured posting once in this thread with something related to one minor topic in the thread was better than creating an entirely new thread.

"This is mostly off topic (at least for the thread in general), but after reading KoD, I don't think of Galad near as PC as I used to. I also have quite a bit more respect for him."
Oh yeah, I know, but things like that tend to still derail whether it is meant or not :D No hard feelings.

Thanks, WH.

Hmmm...Gonzo, Mins viewings ALWAYS come true...whether she interpreted it or not. Sure, sometimes she KNOWS what it will mean, but either way, it WILL happen. That's what I meant. Are Perrin's visions TRUE, or are they like dreams where it is only "likely"?

Weird Harold

08-28-2009, 12:43 AM

Are Perrin's visions TRUE, or are they like dreams where it is only "likely"?

From the link I posted:

Egwene and a woman with long white hair were staring at him in surprise while behind them the White Tower crumbled stone by stone.

The woman is Amys. This bit is probably not prophetic, but a chance meeting in T'A'R (thus the surprised look). The crumbling of the Tower has been fulfilled, at least partly--it is broken, but will it be destroyed even further?

The Wolf Dream and T'A'R are apparently the same "place" so the reliability of Wolf Dream Visions should be on a par with T'A'R visions.

Matoyak

08-28-2009, 01:00 AM

Terez

08-28-2009, 02:06 AM

That particular 'panel' of Perrin's dreams has always been a bit confusing. Most of the things he sees are fairly prophetic, cut and dried, but that one was weird because Egwene and Amys were obviously there. Did they see the same thing he saw? There's no way to know. Obviously there was truth in the White Tower crumbling, and Egwene's purpose in the Pattern is obviously to do something about it, and you could even tie Amys to it because Egwene's Aiel training is what gave Egwene what she needed to overcome her current difficulties (and many of her previous ones).

The reason we don't really talk about Perrin's dreams much is because they always deal with things that are happening currently, so there aren't any hints about the future really. People refer to the beggar one a lot, but that's like the only exception to the 'happening right now and we already know what it means' rule. Even the Egwene/Tower one is fairly clear, as far as its meaning goes.

tworiverswoman

08-28-2009, 02:21 AM

In the case of Mat, it is probably rather symbolic. He is tied by fate to do what he has to do, and the outward signs of that are his spear and his medallion. He snarls against it, but he is not willing to do what it would take to escape (like killing Tuon), so that he remains bound. Hmmm - I took this to be a pretty literal recap of the end of his meeting with the Finns in Rhuidean.Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.Doesn't sound very metaphoric to me... Or are you being a wit? :p (insert snarky comment here)

Mato, I saw them as literal VISIONS -- pre-sights of actual events. The women kneeling to Egwene happened just as described. When Mat got his gifts in Rhuidean, the Finns displayed a rather twisted sense of humor by hanging him, bound as described, from the tree of Life. (well - a scion of it, anyway). Rand ... that one we've not yet seen in ANY form. But I'm reasonably sure we will. The other two were spot on.

As for Egwene - like Terez said, she and Amys were REALLY THERE - in T'A'R - in the dreaming state. It wasn't a vision, though it may have interrupted one, since there WAS something going on in the background.

There are many ways to get prophetic visions in WoT, obviously. True Dreams, Visions, Min's Viewings ... doubtless others we haven't heard described. I think Perrin's are just as valid as Egwene's, at a minimum. We have no evidence from a narrator to say if they are GUARANTEED to come to pass - but two out of three so far -- three out of four if you count the white tower, though THAT one IS metaphorical, it seems. Unless it was Egwene's presence that caused it - since she, in the person of a second Amyrlin, is highly symbolic of the split in the Tower.

Matoyak

08-28-2009, 02:37 AM

Hmmm - I took this to be a pretty literal recap of the end of his meeting with the Finns in Rhuidean.Doesn't sound very metaphoric to me...
Well, he wasn't naked when they did that, and he was hung with rope or something, at that time, IIRC. It very well could be a thing to happen in the Tower of Genie. Erm, I mean, Ghengie (SP). :p Or it could be metaphorical of his whole 'finn problems in general. I personally think it is an event that either happened already (Mat's hanging) or will happen.(Something in tower of 'finns)

Mato, I saw them as literal VISIONS -- pre-sights of actual events.
So do I, except it might be a case of post-sight if I have the timeline down right for Mat's hanging (Which I could be very off)...which is one reason I suspect the vision was 'finn tower-produced.

There are many ways to get prophetic visions in WoT, obviously. True Dreams, Visions, Min's Viewings ... I think Perrin's are just as valid as Egwene's, at a minimum. We have no evidence from a narrator to say if they are GUARANTEED to come to pass - but two out of three so far...
I personally think they are closer to Min's than Egwene's. But that's just me.

GonzoTheGreat

08-28-2009, 04:24 AM

Hmmm - I took this to be a pretty literal recap of the end of his meeting with the Finns in Rhuidean.Doesn't sound very metaphoric to me... Or are you being a wit? :p (insert snarky comment here)Perhaps only part of one. Would you settle for fifty percent? :p

But I don't think it is really as literal as you say. As Matoyak says, he wasn't naked at any point of his encounter with the Finns that we know of. And, just as importantly, there is no evidene at all that the spear was ever used in the way the vision describes: stuck behind his arms to restrain him. Instead, a rope was bound around his neck, the other end of the rope was attached to the spear, and that spear was laid over a couple of branches of Avendesora.

Which brings up the obvious question: what kind of useful, semi-magical, properties did that rope have? We know that Rand and Mat simply discarded it, but it might have been yet another Finn gift, and if they had taken it with them, they could have found a use for it.

Toss the dice

08-28-2009, 06:27 AM

I agree with Gonzo that the vision of Mat with him snarling, etc was symbolic rather than literal. The vision doesn't match up with what was described happened to Mat in TSR. Unless something in the last books changes that (to me it would be difficult to write that since Mat's firsthand pov would have to be false, at least to him), I have to stick with the firsthand pov of Mat.

On the other hand, it is VERY possible that the vision will literally come about when Mat, Thom, Noal? try to rescue Moiraine. Along with everything else, the medallion already around Mat's neck (where it's been for books now) would fit.

GonzoTheGreat

08-28-2009, 06:33 AM

In that case, Mat would also get his rope back, when he untangles himself, which is the kind of funny poetic justice the Finns just love.

Weird Harold

08-28-2009, 10:02 AM

But my point was I thought that all of the Wise Ones/Dreamers got their prophetic dreams from the dream-state. NOT visions in T'A'R. I know they are related, but they aren't the same necessarily. I was asking for clarification on that as well in my original question :D

The Wise One Dreameers do get prophetic visions from the Dream State, but when they are looking for the answer to a specific question, they go Dream Walking in T'A'R. Not much is said about what they see or how they find it, because Egwene was summoned to Salidar before her training with the Dreamwalkers got that far -- at least on-screen.

It is that second method of seeing the future -- in T'A'R -- that Perrin's Wolfdream visions corespond to.

Oatman

08-28-2009, 10:06 AM

I had always just figured the differences between Perrin and the other dream inclined characters were due to gender. Kind of like how saidar and saidin are different.

Weird Harold

08-28-2009, 10:28 AM

On the other hand, it is VERY possible that the vision will literally come about when Mat, Thom, Noal? try to rescue Moiraine. Along with everything else, the medallion already around Mat's neck (where it's been for books now) would fit.

Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.

Since Perrin doesn't take note of what Mat is bound with, perhaps this is a scenario that Tylin used the dreaded pink ribbons for?

Ishara

08-28-2009, 12:11 PM

Since Perrin doesn't take note of what Mat is bound with, perhaps this is a scenario that Tylin used the dreaded pink ribbons for?

WH, you just made my whole day! Spit take and everything. ROFLMAO:D

4Alethinos

08-28-2009, 01:10 PM

WH you are being implicitly naughty! HeHe

"You gotta love the man," :)

Toss the dice

08-28-2009, 03:41 PM

Mat stood naked and bound, snarling; an odd spear with a black shaft had been thrust across his back behind his elbows, and a silver medallion, a foxhead, hung on his chest.

Since Perrin doesn't take note of what Mat is bound with, perhaps this is a scenario that Tylin used the dreaded pink ribbons for?

Just awesome. Lol I can definately picture seeing Tylin amusing herself with a "game" while Mat is bound, naked, and snarling. The only question is, is the "game" ready to start or just over with?

Matoyak

08-28-2009, 05:25 PM

As Matoyak says, he wasn't naked at any point of his encounter with the Finns that we know of.
No using me as evidence against Tru's belief! :p Because I personally believe the visions are more literal than prophetic. I think they are closer to Min's than Egwene's, so I think this is going to happen in 'finnland/genieland/tower of genie/whatever it be called.

When they go to T'A'R' for answers to something, they use the NEED method they taught to Nynaeve. If you need water, you concentrate on that need. Has nothing to do with visions as far as we know.

Weird Harold

08-28-2009, 07:45 PM

When they go to T'A'R' for answers to something, they use the NEED method they taught to Nynaeve. If you need water, you concentrate on that need. Has nothing to do with visions as far as we know.

That is only one small, infrequent, use of T'A'R:

"You sent a letter to me in Tear," Moiraine said, "before I ever reached there. You said a great many things, some of which have proven true. Including that I would – must – meet you here today; you Very nearly commanded me to be here. Yet earlier you said if I came. How much of what you wrote did you know to be true?"

Amys sighed and set aside her cup of wine, but it was Bair who spoke. "Much is uncertain, even to a dream walker. Amys and Melaine are the best of us, and even they do not see all that is, or all that can be."

"The present is much clearer than the future even in Tel'aran'rhiod," the sun-haired Wise One said. "What is happening or beginning is more easily seen than what will happen, or may. We did not see Egwene or Mat Cauthon at all. It was no more than an even chance that the young man who calls himself Rand al'Thor would come. If he did not, it was certain that he would die, and the Aiel too. Yet he has come, and if he survives Rhuidean, some of the Aiel at least will survive. This we know. If you had not come, he would have died. If Aan'allein had not come, you would have died. If you do not go through the rings —" She cut off as if she had bitten her tongue.

Egwene leaned forward intently. Moiraine had to enter Rhuidean? But the Aes Sedai appeared to give no notice, and Seana spoke up quickly to cover Melaine's slip.

"There is no one set path to the future. The Pattern makes the finest lace look coarse-woven sacking, or tangled string. In Tel'aran'rhiod it is possible to see some ways the future may be woven. No more than that."

Jonai

08-30-2009, 03:18 AM

:Re Cad and Semi. If I was going to roll the dice, I'd wager on Semi every time. She got her jailer's to help her escape and then they committed suicide in the past. Nope Cad isn't coming out on top. Semi is escaping and doing a lot of damage along the way.

Oatman

08-30-2009, 07:13 AM

Semi had the advantage of a terrifying reputation on her side back then. Granted she still has that reputation, but in the AoL the specifics would have been known. Also, Cadusane isn't your average Jailer. She'll take Semi the same way as she has taken Rand, a new challenge.

Jonai

08-30-2009, 07:45 AM

Let's just hope whoever is maintaining her buffer doesn't knot it off.

greatwolf

08-30-2009, 08:44 AM

Let's just hope whoever is maintaining her buffer doesn't knot it off.

You just predicted nynaeve.

Oatman, you didn't mention the BL kings. Don't you think this arc will be resolved once and for all?

Enigma

08-30-2009, 09:03 AM

Or they could just sever her. She can't teach them anymore but she is still good for intel and is a lot less a security risk.

GonzoTheGreat

08-30-2009, 09:23 AM

Well, for a while at least. Until someone accidentally Heals her.

Oatman

08-30-2009, 10:08 AM

Oatman, you didn't mention the BL kings. Don't you think this arc will be resolved once and for all?

I did mention them, just not in the first post.

There's actually a few issues surrounding Semi that will be interesting. There will doubtless be some people pushing for her execution which will clash with Rands predisposition to not harm women. There will be the stilling versus learning argument brought up. Possibly an issue with exactly who's custody she should be placed in. And then there's that BA member that has sworn to him who could be manipulated.

greatwolf

08-30-2009, 10:21 AM

Well, for a while at least. Until someone accidentally Heals her.

I'm sure semi'll find a way to upset nyn so she cuts her off and heals her while they're alone.

Marie Curie 7

08-30-2009, 01:23 PM

That is only one small, infrequent, use of T'A'R:

Yeah, the bits of possible future events that dreamwalkers see in TAR seem to be most similar to Perrin's visions. From the BWB:

TITLE: BWB
CHAPTER: 23 - Tel'aran'rhiod

The entrance to the Wolf Dream is different for Wolfbrothers than for dreamwalkers. Lord Perrin tells of a fleeting image of windows opening onto other events in other places. He believes that these "window-visions" may be related to the dreamwalkers' occasional ability to see hints of future events, but there are too few data available for a detailed comparison. We are deeply grateful to Lord Perrin for his assistance, and to his gracious wife, the Lady Faile, for convincing him to give it.

Oatman, you didn't mention the BL kings. Don't you think this arc will be resolved once and for all?

BL kings? It took me a few minutes to figure out WTF this was supposed to mean, especially since Ethenielle and Tenobia are queens.

Semi had the advantage of a terrifying reputation on her side back then. Granted she still has that reputation, but in the AoL the specifics would have been known. Also, Cadusane isn't your average Jailer. She'll take Semi the same way as she has taken Rand, a new challenge.

It would actually be nice for once to see one of the Forsaken live up to her reputation, so I kinda hope Semirhage has her way with Cadsuane...

Enigma

08-30-2009, 01:32 PM

Marie Curie 7

08-30-2009, 01:44 PM

I think that part of the reputation the forsaken had was built up over 3000 years of stories that grew with each telling. Added to that was that they were fighting a people who a few years before the War began did not know what a war was.

Even crime was rare and suddenly they are having to live in a horror story. The current generation have had 3000 years of horror and conflict to harden their outlook on the world.

What would have totally horified and scared witless the average Aol citizen may only disgust a 3Ager.

The legends and stories about the Forsaken may have built up their reputations, stories to scare children into behaving, but I think that most Third Agers would be quite horrified by the actual things that the Forsaken did. For example:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

"Whatever your crimes are, Taim, they pale beside the Forsaken's. Have you ever tortured an entire city, made thousands of people assist in breaking each other slowly, in breaking their own loved ones? Semirhage did that, for no more reason than that she could, to prove she could, for the pleasure of it. Have you murdered children? Graendal did. She called it kindness, so they would not suffer after she enslaved their parents and carried them away." He just hoped the other Saldaeans were listening half as closely as Taim; the man had actually leaned forward slightly in interest. He hoped they did not ask too many questions about where all this came from. "Have you given people to Trollocs to eat? All the Forsaken did – prisoners who would not turn always went to the Trollocs, if they weren't murdered out of hand – but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the Shadow, and every man, woman and child went into Trolloc bellies. Mesaana set up schools in the territory she controlled, schools where children and young people were taught the glories of the Dark One, taught to kill their friends who didn't learn well enough or fast enough. I could go on. I could start from the beginning of the list and go through all thirteen names, adding a hundred crimes as bad to every name. Whatever you've done, it doesn't rank with that. And now you've come to accept my pardon, to walk in the Light and submit to me, to battle the Dark One as hard as you ever battled anyone. The Forsaken are reeling; I mean to hunt them all down, eradicate them. And you will help me. For that, you've earned your pardon. I tell you true, you'll probably earn it a hundred times over again before the Last Battle is done."

Enigma

08-30-2009, 01:51 PM

Yes the current generation would be horrified by what was done but what I'm trying to get across is that they would no be as shocked as say an Aol person.

We hear about a little girl being statched and kept in terrible conditions of 18 years and we are shocked, horrified etc. Say you told that same story to someone in middle America or France or the UK in 1901. My guess is that they would not be able to comprehend what had been done because it would be so beyond anything they were used to hearing about or seeing. Its not a pefect example because the people then would still have grown up learning about wars and murder etc not like the people in LTT's time.

greatwolf

08-30-2009, 02:05 PM

BL kings? It took me a few minutes to figure out WTF this was supposed to mean, especially since Ethenielle and Tenobia are queens.

Madam, I tender unreserved apologies.

Marie Curie 7

08-30-2009, 05:54 PM

Yes the current generation would be horrified by what was done but what I'm trying to get across is that they would no be as shocked as say an Aol person.

The Collapse lasted about 100 years, though. So, sure the AoLers around at the beginning of the Collapse, just after the Bore was drilled, would have had a very hard time dealing with some of the things that were done by Darkfriends. However, after several decades of Collapse, the AoLers likely would have become somewhat hardened to those things, just as you note that we in the real world are hardened compared to people of just a couple of generations ago.

But remember, even in recent times in Randland during the Third Age there were lots of people who, although they might have been aware of murders and other types of crime occurring, had never seen a Trolloc let alone any other Shadowspawn, and so were just as shocked by a lot of the Shadow's activities as those in the AoL probably were initially.

At any rate, what I was referring to in my original post with regard to the Forsaken was what we the readers know of their reputations (i.e., the awful stuff they did during the War of the Shadow). Most of what we've seen from them so far in the books hasn't even come close to any of that, so my point was that it would be nice to actually see a Forsaken acting like one for once. :)

GonzoTheGreat

08-31-2009, 02:24 AM

In the Two Rivers, murder was known, in theory. And in practice: they had had one example of it in living memory.

As for the Forsaken: there are a couple of occasions where they kill their own or each others servants through carelessness, and the greatest worry seems to be whether the blood ruins the carpets.

bowlwoman

09-03-2009, 10:41 AM

Taim vs Logain: Due to Rands continued inaction in regards to the BT, Logain will take the initiative to fix the situation himself.I'd put money on that being in the next book, rather than this one.

I agree that it will be in the next book, because the timing will the necessary. I think the fall of the BT will the the last major non-Last Battle event we get, or, it could be seen as the very beginning of the LB.

BT rent in blood and fire, Logain's glory, sisters walking the grounds...what if this is the event that finally brings the Black Ajah out into the open? DF Asha'man, BA Aes Sedai (probably those bonded to Asha'man) fighting openly in front of witnesses? To me, that's a big kick in the Light's teeth by finally making everyone admit that the BA does exist. What better way to spread chaos than to make it certain that the Randland populace can't trust the very organization that is supposed to be above reproach? Heading into the Last Battle, this is gonna cause some problems, IMO.

GonzoTheGreat

09-03-2009, 10:51 AM

Davian93

09-03-2009, 11:11 AM

None of "Logain's Angels" are BA. When Elaida ordered that expedition, Alviarin checked with Mesaana, who said something like "sent them away, they won't hurt the BT anyway". Alviarin, who knows the names of all Black Sisters, then decided not to send any of her own there.

Which, of course, means that a disproportionate number of the remaining sisters in the WT are Black Ajah. Thus, the Sisters hunting the BA will be in for a surprise when they see how many there are in the Tower.

GonzoTheGreat

09-03-2009, 11:28 AM

Well, that was obvious right from the start, anyway.

Consider:
While AS are powerhungry anyway, BA are usually 'serving' the Shadow because they want even more power.
Only about a third to half the AS are usually in the Tower.
AS, whether BA or not, seem to think that all that matters is the WT.
Thus, the ones that want power even more than others would gravitate towards the place where that power rests: to the White Tower itself.

Davian93

09-03-2009, 11:37 AM

the silent speaker

09-03-2009, 01:53 PM

And I think that is thoughtless optimism. Blacks also have a tendency to take steps to not be on the losing side, which argues to put them in the 1/3 that's of no faction. Moreover all the Black Blues are in the rebel camp by definition. I think the splits are more or less equal (except that the Tower has a higher proportion due to the Logain bondage contingent being Black-free).

Weird Harold

09-03-2009, 02:10 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that 1/3 to 1/2 of the remaining 200 or so Sisters in the WT are actually Black Ajah. ...

I would.

I would expect somthing on the order of 60-75% of the BA to be out operating independently where just being an Aes Sedai is something special -- where they can be a big fish in a small pond instead of cloistered together with lots of peopleready to pounce on any small slip in their cover and able to do something about it.

FelixPax

09-03-2009, 06:07 PM

At any rate, what I was referring to in my original post with regard to the Forsaken was what we the readers know of their reputations (i.e., the awful stuff they did during the War of the Shadow). Most of what we've seen from them so far in the books hasn't even come close to any of that, so my point was that it would be nice to actually see a Forsaken acting like one for once. :)

He lacks a broader reputation for now, but Shaidar Haran should gain one soon. ;)

Graendal has takenout the leadership of two different nations herself, Arad Doman & Shara, is that not enough? Semirhage killed almost all the Seanchan Royalty in Seandar....Demandred setup & manipulated four nations to sent their might against the Dragon Reborn....

FelixPax

09-03-2009, 06:36 PM

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that 1/3 to 1/2 of the remaining 200 or so Sisters in the WT are actually Black Ajah. I would also not be surprised to find out that a very large majority of Egwene's Sisters are NOT Black Ajah for the same reasons as listed above. I would figure on a small amount (like Delana) to be and that that group was sent by Alviarin to help control both sides of the Schism.

Sounds logical to me, more Black Ajah on the Salidar
side.

Maigan is possibly a Black Ajah with Salidar Aes Sedai. Why? Because Maigan was at Far Dara, when roughly it seems roughly half of the other sisters either are or might be Black ones.

Green = Asne Zeramene, Saldaean - Black Ajah (tSR Ch.38)
Green = Alanna Mosvani, Arafellin - manipulated by Verin later.
Blue = Anaiya - old friend of Moiraine
Blue = Maigan - iffy maybe Black Ajah
White = Carlinya - later a Mole for Elaida, who changes her mind?
White = Alviarian - Black Ajah
Yellow = unknown, "a slendar Yellow" (tGH Ch.4)
Yellow = unknown
Gray = unknown
Gray = unknown
Brown = Verin, Far Madding - a "great mystery"
Brown = Serafelle
Red = Liandrin, Tarabon - Black Ajah too
Red = unknown
Keeper of the Chronicles = Leane
Amrylin Seat = Siuan

Who arrived at Far Dara in the Yellow & Gray Ajahs, I think is important, and would shed light of events later in Tar Valon & Salidar.

There's probably hints of who else were there, but I haven't found them except for Asne's.

Edit: Fixed the mixed up between Fal Moran to the correct "Fal Dara".

Oatman

09-03-2009, 07:28 PM

I think you should check your maths again Felix. 3 is not half of 16.
The sisters who made the trip would have been decided by the Ajah heads, Galina being the only known one who is BA. Also, take out Alviaran, who is the head, and you have an equal representation with every other Ajah.
It may be that other members of the Far Moran group turn out to be BA, but the logic you have applied doesn't really make sense.

Dom

09-03-2009, 08:32 PM

Sounds logical to me, more Black Ajah on the Salidar
side.

Maigan is possibly a Black Ajah with Salidar Aes Sedai. Why? Because Maigan was at Far Moran, when roughly it seems roughly half of the other sisters either are or might be Black ones.

[INDENT] Green = Asne Zeramene, Saldaean - Black Ajah (tSR Ch.38)

Interesting idea, but not fully conclusive. Asne might have gotten a peek at Rand in the events in Tear, not in Fal Dara. Also, Asne has four warders, while the second Green in Fal Dara had two, like Alanna.

Blue = Maigan - iffy maybe Black Ajah

I'm not sure what makes Maigan iffy. The Blue seems to have sent her to Fal Dara in support of Moiraine. Maigan is like Anayia a close friend of her. The Blue in TGH got a massive slap in the face from the other Ajahs and were thrown into a political crisis. They would have sent sisters of some importance, and that would openly be seen as very supportive of Moiraine. Anayia is also known to not budge an inch when she doesn't want to, while Maigan lately has shown she's got quite a backbone as well. Maigan after Anayia's death seems close to Lelaine, clearly aligned with her anyway - and Lelaine would have overeacted to the insult to the Blue, no doubt. Maigan may have been her candidate.

(I, like many, believe the Blue actually sent their Ajah Head in person, who I think was Anayia.. replaced by Maigan after her death. Maigan appears to go along just well with Lelaine in later books, while Anayia was never shown as such - another reason that makes me think what kept Lelaine a bit more restrained before Anayia's death is the fact Anayia was the AH, not a huge supporter of her and on Sheriam's council. This would also explain why Lelaine's target for bitching was always Sheriam, never Anayia. Anayia would have left the leadership outwardly to Sheriam, to keep the usual pretense of secrecy about her position. Another tidbit is how Anayia reacted to Siuan exposing Aeldene as master spy. There's also the fact Anayia is always sticking to novices/accepted who show some talent as if she was recruiting/feeling them out for the Blue).

White = Carlinya - later a Mole for Elaida, who changes her mind?

Again, an interesting idea, but it does not appear so, IMO.

Carlinya appears suspicious in Salidar, I think, mostly because Beonin used her often as her front.

Carlinya was the sceptic of the lot, Morvin not far behind. Beonin made it appear she was merely supporting their opinions, but it's likely that behind the scenes she constantly fuelled Carlinya's misgivings and let Carlinya voice them so it would not appear to be herself who constantly objected to Anayia/Sheriam/Myrelle. That's... very Grey. Beonin also appeared to use Carlinya/Morvin at times to go too far in one direction to force Sheriam/Anayia/Myrelle, the really dangerous ones, to return to a more moderate position. In Sheriam's circle, that was often the best she could hope for, dampering the positions of the Blue and Myrelle)

Beonin herself was at best a half-hearted mole, after the Logain stuff. She didn't send reports to Elaida, notably - much to her frustration. Elaida appears to have learned that Beonin was there among the leaders from Tarna's report, judging from her excitement when she got it and started talking about 'her secret' and Alviarin not knowing why the rebellion would be squashed. Beonin seems to have been... opportunistic.

We see her push the idea Elaida might be too strong to have a chance at opposing her (oh, she's is sending for Rand, oh she's called in all sisters - that sort of things), but she never did so with much heat or apparent determination/enthusiasm. She often let it go whenever the others didn't follow her the first time.

I'm not sure why you believe half the sisters or so in Fal Dara could have been BA.

Alviarin is shown as very involved in Tower debates etc. so it would make sense she volunteered and Ferane or the White Sitters agreed to pick her, though it's also possible, in fact failry likely, one of the White Sitter is BA and the one who favours Alviarin. It sounds like Ferane herself may not favour her so much, especially after the Tower Coup and her role in it. Carlinya is a friend of Sheriam and co., so she may have volunteered as well, or the White Ajah chose one sister more pro-Blue and one less so.

Liandrin is easily explained: Galina. Ishamael could have said: Liandrin must go to Fal Dara, Alviarin would make Galina make it so.

For the other Ajahs it's far from obvious. Blue aside, we know none of the AH is BA. From what we've seen in other occasions about the choice of representatives, the Sitters probably were central in the choice of sisters sent, but this was probably decisions made in concert with the AHs, for some Ajahs at least.Verin is one likely to have volunteered to the Brown Council (it is still an open question whether her and/or Serafelle may actually be part of that council- some believe the council has four members, the three Sitters and the First Chair, others believe it's larger than that). Some BA may have been included by accident, or under the influence of BA sitters, but I think 'about half' the group sent to Fal Dara being BA is too much. It's not likely so many from Fal Dara ended up with the Rebels eother - largely because the Ajahs were very split over the whole affair in TGH and it's not likely so many Blue supporters were in the lot (Siuan says as much to Moiraine - that she has not many she can trust in the lot)

We have many reasons to believe the group of ex-Tower Sitters in Salidar is tied to the Ajah Heads in the Tower, and the BA never got a wind of this 'conspiracy' before Mesaana sniffed out the AH meeting in secret, suggesting none of this lot is BA. Add to this the BA hunters, and the fact only Galina is BA among the AH (blue aside, as always) and it means the influence of the BA over the Hall/AH in TGH was not overwhelming. It exists, but it's not all powerful. So far, we've seen suspicious activities around the Red (this is due to Galina - how many BA she put in the Hall is an unknown - some think most are), the Green (convenient strange votes by 2 Sitters in TGH, we know Talene is BA) and among the White (Alviarin was able to sway one Sitter to Elaida. Whites vote with Blue - and the way Whites go influence the other Ajahs, which means the White support used to be a major factor in keeping the Blue so often in power).

The Blue is an unknown. There may be BA among the other Ajah's Sitters (Grey, Yellow, Brown), but the clues are slim. We know there's more than one in the current Hall still to be revealed, but two more may well be it. It's unlikely more than one at most went with the rebels, not when Alviarin needed all the BA she could have in the Hall to control it as she wished - and Blue aside, the only true candidate for being BA is Janya.

There is an hypothesis that Alviarin was forced to let go one or two (non-Blue) BA sitters because Elaida personally gained support from some Sitters who weren't BA (from the BA hunters, then) and Alviarin, not wanting her to gain a strong victory and get as close as the minimum number required, forced one or two Blacks not to be part of the conspiracy. It has to be something like this if Black Sitters who are not Blue went with the (by then, future) Rebels, because at the time of the Tower Coup Alviarin had no reason to think she'd even need BA who are Sitters outside the Tower, and all the reasons to want them all in Elaida's Hall. There's little evidence the BA put efforts early on to make the rebellion stick for long - it seems likely Mesaana intended to milk it while it last and by the time the sisters began returning Alviarin would have gained her full control of Elaida, and all the ressent caused by the coup between Blue and Red could be milked to further divide the Ajahs. Siuan had other plans, Mesaana took it all in and adapted her own. Alviarin and Mesaana show little signs they had privileged information about the rebellion. It really looks as if Alviarin never saw it coming and had not prepared for such a thing (no plans for BA to send intelligence to the SC etc.)

Davian93

09-03-2009, 08:35 PM

Anaiya as Ajah Head...good call. It just makes sense. Same with Maigan.

Nazbaque

09-03-2009, 09:16 PM

I've always doubted Alviarin's claim of knowing every Black sister. She believes she does and certainly no-one not forsaken stands above her, but I just don't buy it. Considering how BA is organized, how easy would it have been for Ishy to create an inner circle that Alviarin doesn't know of, it's only purpose to make sure a seed survives a possible hunt. It might even be that there are two completely independant Black Ajahs. Or more. In anycase having one henchwoman know that much is not Ishy's style.

Concerning Perrin/Galad/everyone else. What if Rand pops in when they are discussing things in private?

Rand: Perrin, why is your camp full of Whitecloaks? Morgase! Blood and ashes I thought you were dead! Hi brother, what are you doing in that get up? Hi dad, haven't seen you in a while. Berelain, what's this I hear about you doing it with Perrin? Faile, why are you looking at me like that?

The potential plot twists with that are freakin' huge!

Have Gawyn drop in that:

Gawyn: Al'Thor! You killed my mother! Prepare to die!

Rand: I didn't kill your mother.

Gawyn: A likely story! I want evidence

Rand: She is standing over there alive and kicking Tallanvor. Light knows why.

Gawyn: Oh. Right. Okay. You wanna head out for drinks? How have you been these past years?

Rand: Oh not much. Dragon Reborn, Cara'a'carn, Coramoor, King of Illian, cleansed saidin, that sort of thing.

Gawyn: No time for women and drinking?

Rand: Well I did get your sister pregnant.

Gawyn: DIE!!!

bowlwoman

09-03-2009, 10:18 PM

Concerning Perrin/Galad/everyone else. What if Rand pops in when they are discussing things in private?

Rand: Perrin, why is your camp full of Whitecloaks? Morgase! Blood and ashes I thought you were dead! Hi brother, what are you doing in that get up? Hi dad, haven't seen you in a while. Berelain, what's this I hear about you doing it with Perrin? Faile, why are you looking at me like that?

The potential plot twists with that are freakin' huge!

Have Gawyn drop in that:

Gawyn: Al'Thor! You killed my mother! Prepare to die!

Rand: I didn't kill your mother.

Gawyn: A likely story! I want evidence

Rand: She is standing over there alive and kicking Tallanvor. Light knows why.

Gawyn: Oh. Right. Okay. You wanna head out for drinks? How have you been these past years?

Rand: Oh not much. Dragon Reborn, Cara'a'carn, Coramoor, King of Illian, cleansed saidin, that sort of thing.

Gawyn: No time for women and drinking?

Rand: Well I did get your sister pregnant.

Gawyn: DIE!!!

That would make one hell of an e-prologue. If only.

FelixPax

09-04-2009, 01:16 AM

The Shaido are somewhat shattered, but they seem to be out of the picture. They are likely to get caught up in the battles that will surround the events of the Last Battle. While they are not led by nice people, they are not Darkfriends, either. I do not expect to see them in the next book. More likely to be in the second or third book of the series. I do not believe that the Wheel is done with them. They will not be able to hide in the Threefold Land from the distress that is to come.

Therava's Shaido were mostly heading towards Murandy and/or northern Illian last we saw in KoD. That leaves Padan Fain, Masema, and a paranoid King Roedran for possible conflicts with the Shaido in Murandy for at least the next book. Farther out in Threefold Land, I have always wondering if we will see any of Sharan's invade and destroy the remaining members Shaido Clan? Or will the Shaido decide to join with the other Clans & Rand after all? But yes, I too don't think the WoT is finished with them, just yet.

FelixPax

09-04-2009, 03:38 AM

Dom, I'm still digging though your analysis of events and I just want to say thanks. :)

Interesting idea, but not fully conclusive. Asne might have gotten a peek at Rand in the events in Tear, not in Fal Dara. Also, Asne has four warders, while the second Green in Fal Dara had two, like Alanna.

Yes, Asne had only two likely physical locations to even have the chance to view Rand: Far Dara or in Tear. Considering how Rand entered the Stone, by climbing the building with the Black Ajah inside, it seems difficult to believe Asne was at anytime close enough to physically view him. All the Black Ajah flee the chaos in Stone as best we know, based on Egwene, Nynaeve, Aviendha all searching for them after Mat & Juilin free them. Moiraine & Lan sure don't find any other Black Ajah on their own in the Stone. Otherwise, the other real physical location Rand was prior to that, with many unknown Aes Sedai around was in Fal Dara with Siuan's party to Shienar.

The most logical place is Fal Dara. Even though yes, Alanna had two warders live at the time, and Asne had four warders live, one of whom was a darkfriend: Powl.
The point of view with that scene at Fal Dara was Egwene's, we can only guess where or what the missing two warders were doing.

"That makes no sense," Asne said, frowning. "We are to bind him, control him, not kill him." She laughed suddenly, soft and low, and leaned back in her chair. "If there is a way to control him, I would not mind binding him to me. He is a good-looking young man, from the little I saw." Liandrin sniffed; she had no liking for men at all. Source: tSR Ch.38, "Hidden Faces", pg 439.

The tent shared by the Red sisters looked oddly lonely without any Warders, while that of the Greens seemed almost festive, the two Aes Sedai often sitting outside long past dark to talk with the four Warders they had brought between them. Source: tGH Ch.12 "Woven to the Pattern" pg 203

I'm not sure what makes Maigan iffy. The Blue seems to have sent her to Fal Dara in support of Moiraine. Maigan is like Anayia a close friend of her. The Blue in TGH got a massive slap in the face from the other Ajahs and were thrown into a political crisis.

What prompts the question of Maigan status to "iffy" status in my mind, is based on later events not events in TGH.

If Maigan is now the Head of Blue Ajah, why is Lelaine continually asking to banned discussion of the "Black Ajah"? How about Maigan on the topic of Compulsion (CoT: Chap.30) with Lelaine? Why is it Egwene & Leane mission to block both Harbor ports is leaked in advance to Elaida's side? Who did the leaking? Maigan only entered Egwene's inner circle after Anaiya died, and Maigan is the only one not sworned to Egwene in that circle of trust. Morvrin, Carlinya, Myrelle, Beonin are sworn to Egwene and each a Head of an Ajah. Only the Blue and Yellow Ajah Heads are now not sworned to personally obey to Egwene: Romanda Cassin and Maigan.

We have seen Blue Ajah sisters turn the Shadow previously in the series, its possible- Berylla Naron, Ispan Shefar, Merean Redhill who was the Mistress of Novices! However, like you said there is no hard evidence either way I known of, only suggestions something is a miss with Maigan- a personal disagreement with Egwene continuing as leader, or is it something more?

Any Black Ajah left in the Blue Ajah are not in the White Tower now. Their either with the Salidar group or elsewhere. Alviarin Freidhen did not have to forcefully send spies into the rebels side, because any Blue Ajah Darkfriends were already going there.

There still are four unknown moles, which Elaida sent into the Salidar camp at the very beginning.

Carlinya maybe just have once been a mole for Elaida, who later changed her mind. This would partially explain why Elaida wants to "still" Carlinya in KoD, because Carlinya supports actively Egwene.

I'm not sure why you believe half the sisters or so in Fal Dara could have been BA.

If one takes an extreme view of the known Black Ajah plus the "iffy" Aes Sedai, its roughly half the known individuals who went to Fal Dara, outside Siuan & Leane's roles by ratio:

Known Black Ajah at Fal Dara
Green = Asne Zeramene, Saldaean - Black Ajah (tSR Ch.38)
White = Alviarian - Black Ajah
Red = Liandrin, Tarabon - Black Ajah too

Some Mystery with each
Brown = Verin, Far Madding - a "great mystery"
Blue = Maigan - iffy maybe Black Ajah
White = Carlinya - later a Mole for Elaida, who changes her mind?

On the side of Light at Fal Dara:
Green = Alanna Mosvani, Arafellin - manipulated by Verin later.
Blue = Anaiya - old friend of Moiraine
Brown = Serafelle
Keeper of the Chronicles = Leane
Amrylin Seat = Siuan

Unknown Aes Sedai identities at Fal Dara:
Yellow = unknown, "a slendar Yellow" (tGH Ch.4)
Yellow = unknown
Gray = unknown
Gray = unknown
Red = unknown

Even Siuan at Fal Dara said to Moiraine only half the sisters there supported her. That should be some clue, there was more than means the eye politically. Robert Jordan did not give us very much information to work with above, compared to the whole post-White Tower split politics within Tar Valon and Salidar between all the factions. Yes, the number of Black Ajah is this above group is very likely less than 50%; but only half the sisters support Siuan as of Fal Dara.

Even Egwene later thinks to herself, Verin would head after Rand if she knew what he was...Dragon Reborn. Interestingly enough, Egwene guess was correct, as Verin does depart the group without even telling her own Warder shortly after teaching Egwene, Nynaeve a lesson about saidar. As does Liandrin too.

From what we've seen in other occasions about the choice of representatives, the Sitters probably were central in the choice of sisters sent, but this was probably decisions made in concert with the AHs, for some Ajahs at least.

The Hall almost did not let Siuan even go to Fal Dara, to see in person Moiraine and the boys. This whole event was uncustomary, and Siuan was already being undermining. Alviarin didn't just do this alone; she had extra helper against with Siuan, through her control of various BA sitter(s) & Ajah Head: Talene Minly + ?; Galina.

White Tower Sitters both pre & post split, who I am curiously skeptical of, include:

Gray - Evanellein
Yellow - Sedore
White - Velina
Red - Javindhra Doraille (now at Black Tower):(

Coincidence or not, these four Sitters are question marks; who we lack information on and who did go to Fal Dara to represent them? Did Evanellein, Sedore, Velina, and Javindra selected themselves to go to Fal Dara? Or did only a few or none of them go? Obviously all were supporters of coup d'état by Elaida, based on Seaine Herimon p.o.v. (ACoS: Chapter 32)

The Red Sitter Javindhra has many things pointing toward her being Black Ajah, that's one reason I "fear" for Tarna's character at the Black Tower in the next book....Look like a total setup to me.

On a separate issue, White Tower sitter issue; there is the strange events of the two Green Ajah sitters Rina Hafden and Rubinde switching who defers who whom over the course of the story, according to my notes. Not sure what this means exactly. Very odd situation though.

It's unlikely more than one at most went with the rebels, not when Alviarin needed all the BA she could have in the Hall to control it as she wished - and Blue aside, the only true candidate for being BA is Janya.

Janya, yes, a possibility but as you said there is no hard evidence one way or the other.:(

Edit: Javindhra Doraille was not yet a Red Sitter when the Fal Dara trip occurred in book 2. The Red Ajah have had a large rotation of Sitters during the series:

Javindhra Doraille (at Black Tower now), Pevara Tazanovni (Black Ajah hunter, in Tower), Duhara Basaheen (in Andor somewhere, back from exile), Toveine Gazal (exiled sitter as scapegoat during "vileness" & returned, bonded to Logain now) ; Teslyn Baradon (Elaida exiled her to Ebou Dar Embassy & to demotes her ; with Mat's group now); Amira Moselee (former Mistress of Novices under Sierin Vayu & then a Red Sitter which resigned when Elaida came to Tower, killed at Dumai Wells)

By this count there is not one current Red Sister physically in Tar Valon as of the end of KoD.

Oatman

09-04-2009, 07:13 AM

Who did the leaking? Maigan only entered Egwene's inner circle after Anaiya died, and Maigan is the only one not sworned to Egwene in that circle of trust. Morvrin, Carlinya, Myrelle, Beonin are sworn to Egwene and each a Head of an Ajah.

Uh, Delana?
The BA/Forsaken want to prolong the schism, the success of the plan would have shortened in in Egwenes favor, and Egwene wasn't supposed to be there so she would have stayed in Aran'gar's grasp. Makes a lot more sense than what you said.
Most of what you are saying is unsupported assumptions with many other more reasonable explanations. There is no reason to suspect the BA had any particular interest in Fal Moran.

FelixPax

09-04-2009, 01:57 PM

Uh, Delana?
The BA/Forsaken want to prolong the schism, the success of the plan would have shortened in in Egwenes favor, and Egwene wasn't supposed to be there so she would have stayed in Aran'gar's grasp. Makes a lot more sense than what you said.

Delana was not in Sheriam's original group in the little tower, which controlled events in Salidar at the very beginning. Delana is not an Ajah Head, she is/was a Sitter for the Gray. Nor was Delana sworn by Oath to Egwene, hence Delana is not the inner group of trust for Egwene. The whole reason many of the Salidar Ajah Heads take Egwene's Oath, is they fear what their Ajahs & Sisters will do when they find out the Heads fear there might be Black Ajah on the Council Hall- they don't fully trust their own sitters! Leane says the same in the book to Egwene.

To take one example, Delana wanted to "kill" Logain, because Aran'gar wanted a free reign in camp. Egwene did not want to kill Logain, she secretly freed Logain to go to Rand. Delana is never fully trusted by Egwene.

Besides the whole Hall was informed of the plan to close both Harbor ports in Tar Valon, which means Lelaine knows too. Lelaine also was spending a lot of time with Kairen Stang before dying (CoT,Ch17), thirteen chapters later. Lelaine has a grudge against Egwene and all but says she wants to replace Egwene at one point. Both Maigan & Lelaine are tied together. However the "leaker" could of been anyone in the Hall not only Delana.

Most of what you are saying is unsupported assumptions with many other more reasonable explanations. There is no reason to suspect the BA had any particular interest in Fal Moran.

How and why is Siuan almost stopped from seeing Moiraine in Fal Dara? Do you really think the Black Ajah had no hand in trying to stop an Amyrlin Seat going where she wants to, in a context of non-war? By custom Siuan should have be been able to go where ever she wanted, without a huge number of minders. But the Hall overrode "Custom and Law" during the arguments previous to Fal Dara scenes in the Great Hunt book.

We can see this relatively clearly based on a similar situation with Egwene & the Salidar Hall of Sitters later, versus Siuan & the Tar Valon Hall in tGH. Prior Law & Custom can be assumed to be the same, in both situations.

Ishamael, Shadar Haran, and Lanfear all show up around Fal Dara and were already trying to create bait & shape future events. Liandrin & Alviarin are also both at Fal Dara. The Shadow already knew Rand, Perrin, Mat were in Fal Dara for sometime, by the time Siuan and rest of the Aes Sedai arrive. How? Ingtar sent messages at minimum.

Those later Borderlander riots were partially egged on by the Shadow to undermine all four Rulers & the garrisons along the Blight. They also would help push-pull the Borderlander's Armies soon after southward to "stop" the Dragon Reborn's destruction, as they understood it--this was a part of Ishamael's plan from the very beginning.

The Shadow had a long-term thousands years old plan to counter the Dragon Reborn, as we have seen with the Seanchan Empire corrupted prophecies. Is it that hard to think the Shadow had long developing plans elsewhere?

Even the Forsaken like Rahvin could not takeover nation-states very quickly, it took time to create a mass of bottom-up of riots & unhappiness towards Morgase's rule in Andor. Likewise the White Tower's leadership was not undermined in a month, but over a period of time prior to events we read in Fal Dara.

GonzoTheGreat

09-04-2009, 04:53 PM

Why not suspect Sheriam? If she is Black, then her oath to Egwene isn't very worthwhile.

Nazbaque

09-05-2009, 09:03 AM

I had a fight with Callandor about Sheriam being black once. Can't remember the details, but I think the important part of his long arguments was that if Sheriam was black she could have lied her way out of swearing fealty to Egwene. I still think there isn't conclusive evidence to proove either way. It became a stalemate when Callie refused to back down and I got tired of asking for an example of a lie that would have freed Sheriam.

Now (since I've reread that part recently) I could add that Myrelle had already sworn fealty at that point and even if she had no time to tell Egwene everything she would eventually and Sheriam would be caught.

IIRC Callie also ignored the possibility that the black oaths might limit Sheriam in some fashion as well, but I didn't press the point when the speculations got too complicated.

There are a couple of suspicious events with Sheriam like the Greyman incidents in TDR and the beatings PoV (is it KoD or CoT? I haven't reread that far yet), but nothing directly prooving her black. Believe what you will with that. Myself I'll wait for the evidence. And if it turns out that she is black I'll dance the I-told-you-so-dance on Callie's nose.

GonzoTheGreat

09-05-2009, 09:41 AM

There is also the matter of Egwene's maids. Two of the three were killed by Halima, the third one was left alone. That happened to be the one that was supplied by Sheriam. Which, I admit, isn't conclusive, but is definitely another suspicious item on the list.

Nazbaque

09-05-2009, 10:09 AM

That I think has another explanation. The other two maids were spies of Romanda and Lelaine. Chesa's loyalties were Egwene's from the start. Halima got rid of the other two, but chesa wasn't getting in the way. DF Chesa is possible of course, but it doesn't proove Sheriam black just like her not being DF doesn't proove Sheriam isn't.

In truth if Chesa is exposed as a DF, I would be less suspicious of Sheriam because that smells like a red herring.

FelixPax

09-05-2009, 04:05 PM

Why not suspect Sheriam? If she is Black, then her oath to Egwene isn't very worthwhile.

Yes, Sheriam exact position in the story is mysterious, but the list I gave above in a previous post was of Ajah Heads & Sitters in Salidar--Sheriam is neither. She's a former Mistress of Novices pre-split, who controlled the "little tower", and later became the Keeper of Chronicles under Egwene.

What is unusual about Sheriam is two things which come to mind, Min had a vision of Sheriam future:

Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light

Then there's the scene of Sheriam telling Egwene that channellers can be unwilling turned by a circle of 13 channellers & 13 Myrddraal...which leads me to think that Sheriam has been turned into a spy by the Black Ajah somehow...she might not be Black Ajah at all...just being used by them for information about Novices, like what Merean Redhill did for previously. Now the question arises who, a spy of the Black Ajah would use as a controller? It would by necessary probably need to be someone higher strength in the power, unless some Oath was forced upon her during the turning process. That minder, controller likely would be in the same Ajah, Blue--both Maigin, Lelaine are prime candidates here.

Maigin could be Sheriam abuser; as Maigin was both at Fal Dara, Tar Valon previously in WoT. Maigin is not in Egwene inner circle of "trusted persons" by Oath like Theodrin, Faolain, Nisao Dachen who are.

Maigin & Lelaine were and are working to undermine Egwene:

- "Lelaine orders Nisao to stop her investigation into the deaths of Anaiya and Kairen."
- Want to banned discussion of the Black Ajah
- Lelaine captured and hint Faolain, once she learned she was a spy for Egwene.

Still Maigin might be Black and the abuser of Sheriam, while manipulating Lelaine to undermine Egwene as a leader. Why? Lelaine gains personal power as a non-Black Ajah, and Maigin as a Black Ajah keeps the White Tower further divided like both Aran'gar & Mesaana want. Maigin is taking advantage of the divide between Lelaine & Romanda Cassin to keep the Tower divided longer.

Maigin or Lelaine could of been the "leaker", of the attempt to block the both Harbor ports by the Salidar Aes Sedai. They just didn't know Egwene was going to take action herself to do the task, at the last minute.

Or maybe both Lelaine & Maigin are Black Ajah, as both were working together to attempt to convince Egwene to allow use of "Compulsion" on bonded Asha'men. <--- unsure here.

Sheriam, I think is simply being used by Maigin, to attempt to control Egwene earlier in the story and rely information to Maigin. Sheriam though was not in, on the "leak" to stop the closing of the Harbor ports in Tar Valon by Maigin & Elaida. Maigin was the one to prompt Sheriam to assign a maid to Egwene. Maigin being Black is why Chesa never died, unlike the other two maids and Chesa doesn't who her real handler is either--Sheriam to Maigin to Aran'gar. Which also would point to Lelaine, not being a Black Ajah, as her maid was killed by Aran'gar. Pointing to Lelaine is being manipulated by Maigin, a kin to Verin manipulating Alanna previously in the series. Maigin as the new Blue Ajah head would also have some additional "pull" with the Sitter Lelaine, too. Maigin's position is just perfect for her to be both a B.A., Sheriam's abuser, and a person to okay the leak to Lelaine as a power play (Aran'gar was in on it too).