Egwene: fresh, salt, or brackish?

[Terez]

This should be fairly self-explanatory. It's a public poll, so no secrets, and by all means post and go into detail...the options are of course meant to represent in general the main views on Egwene...just pick the closest one. :D

I like her (most people know that). I think her strengths far outweigh her weaknesses. But that's just me...

[Cary Sedai]

Heck, I don't even find her annoying! :)

[Terez]

That's a rare enough opinion...even I think she's annoying sometimes...but then, I annoy myself sometimes. :D

[irerancincpkc]

Option three all the way. I can't stand her, she gives me the willies. If she perished, I would get up and dance.

[Marie Curie 7]

Egwene's scenes in KoD were really good. I'm looking forward to the Tower scenes in AMoL a lot. :)

[Anaiya Sedai]

she reminds me of myself a lot.
I like her. especially after her capture, now she's standing up to elaida. makes a good read.

[Weird Harold]

Heck, I don't even find her annoying! :)
What she said.

Egwene is what, eighteen or ninteen and thrust into the middle of world events; not just in the middle, but a prime focus of world events.

I think she's done amazingly well -- far better than is strictly realistic.

[Brita]

Egwene's scenes in KoD were really good. I'm looking forward to the Tower scenes in AMoL a lot. :)

Ditto! Can't wait...but have to

[Terez]

Looking good so far...but it won't be long before the rest of the haters roll in. :D

[Brita]

heheh!

[Birgitte]

She's alright. Not my favorite and I can understand why she gets on people's nerves, but she doesn't bug me much. She definitely has her low points (her attitude to Mat after he shows up in the Stone to help her out REALLY irritated me), but she's got her high points too (I'm lovin' her current attitude in captivity). I'm a neutral.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I've said it before:
Egwene wants to learn. Mesaane wants to teach (them all). Make both happy.

[irerancincpkc]

I've said it before:
Egwene wants to learn. Mesaane wants to teach (them all). Make both happy.
I'm sure Egwene would consider it...

She is just very annoying, I cringe when I get to one of her POV's. I'd rather read Faile than Egwene.

[Zaela Sedai]

I love her

[Terez]

Okay, so....Anubis dear? Neilbert or whatever you want to be called now...since when do you not hate Egwene? lol....
Egwene wants to learn. Mesaane wants to teach (them all). Make both happy. I'm sure Egwene would consider it... She did handle Moghedien rather well. :D Until she lost her...but she can hardly be blamed for that...

[irerancincpkc]

She did handle Moghedien rather well. :D Until she lost her...but she can hardly be blamed for that...
No, and she can't be blamed for letting one of the Forsaken rub her down every night either, right? :D

[Terez]

Nope. How could she possibly be blamed for that? :D

[irerancincpkc]

Nope. How could she possibly be blamed for that? :D
I have no idea. That does bring into discussion an interesting question though: Can someone be held responsible for something if they are so utterly clueless and stupid and heartless to realize their errors?

At least no one has tried to compare her to Snape from HP...

[Terez]

Stupid, clueless, and heartless? Are you serious?

As a side note, I'm glad you refrained from voting twice. ;)

[irerancincpkc]

Yes I'm serious. Have you read some of her thoughts, particulary the ones involving Rand?


As a side note, I'm glad you refrained from voting twice. ;)
:confused: Oh wait, ha ha, very funny. :rolleyes:

[Terez]

Yes I'm serious. Have you read some of her thoughts, particulary the ones involving Rand?
Yes, I have, and no, they are not stupid, clueless, or heartless.

[the silent speaker]

I voted #1. It's a little too enthusiastic for my blood, but Egwene is definitely favorable rather than unfavorable or neutral to me most of the time.

[Yuri33]

I voted neutral. She's a capable leader, yet she has some very disturbing tendencies, especially where Rand is concerned. I've highlighted these issues in a previous thread: http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/391/t/Rand-vs-Egwene.html

BTW, there was a very good debate in that thread, but it became derailed by a rather minor issue. Too bad it never got back on track again. But I guess that's the way of TL :)

[Terez]

Bah...her "tendencies" aren't any more "disturbing" than anyone else's in the series...

[irerancincpkc]

Bah...her "tendencies" aren't any more "disturbing" than anyone else's in the series...
:eek: :confused:

For someone who has as much power as she does, her 'tendencies' are downright terrifying, and don't work for the right side.

[GonzoTheGreat]

At least no one has tried to compare her to Snape from HP...
Snape was honest and trustworthy towards Harry. True, he was not particularly nice towards him, but I think that Rand would do better if Snape were the Amyrlin Seat.

[Yuri33]

the options are of course meant to represent in general the main views on Egwene...just pick the closest one.

You gave us 3 choices, I picked the closest one.

her "tendencies" aren't any more "disturbing" than anyone else's in the series...

There's no indication in the poll that we were meant to evaluate Egwene as compared to other characters.

[irerancincpkc]

Snape was honest and trustworthy towards Harry. True, he was not particularly nice towards him, but I think that Rand would do better if Snape were the Amyrlin Seat.
I agree with you Gonzo; I have a friend who reads WOT, and he is convinced Egwene is Snape. :rolleyes:

[Terez]

:eek: :confused:

For someone who has as much power as she does, her 'tendencies' are downright terrifying, and don't work for the right side.
How so?'

And Yuri...I didn't say there was anything wrong with the way you voted, now did I? :p

[Frenzy]

i like her better now that she's not copying every woman of authority around her. Perfectly normal behavior, if painful to read through. She's her own woman now, and is standing on her own. Honey in the Tea is one of my favorite chapters, and not just because it shows Jordan's penchant for spanking.

[Yuri33]

And Yuri...I didn't say there was anything wrong with the way you voted, now did I?

Bah... No you didn't. :)

[Terez]

I win! :D

[Yuri33]

Bah... No you didn't :)

[Terez]

I did and you know it. :p

[Yuri33]

Bah... Are you sure? :)

[Terez]

Yup. See poll results. :p

[Yuri33]

It's a push poll. To be symmetric with Choice #3, Choice #1 should have read:

"She's great! We should all worship the ground she walks on, and petition BS to make her the Chosen One rather than Rand."

Let's see the results then :)

[Terez]

No one ever claimed Egwene was all that. :p She's a great character, and she's doing a huge part of what Rand needs done for the Last Battle. All you Egwene-haters make every little flaw Egwene has into a huge character failing...it's blowing things way out of proportion, and the #3 choice reflects that. I'm happy that your feelings about Egwene aren't as extreme as some, but I still think yours are pretty extreme...

[Yuri33]

All you Egwene-haters make every little flaw Egwene has into a huge character failing...it's blowing things way out of proportion, and the #3 choice reflects that.

And yet only 2 people voted for choice #3 (and I'm not one of them).

I'm happy that your feelings about Egwene aren't as extreme as some, but I still think yours are pretty extreme...

I picked #2--is that "pretty extreme"? Is #1 the only non-hater choice?

[NargsBrood]

Up through book 10 she was salt but now she is fresh after a redeeming book 11.

[a dragonburned fool]

It's really a pity there is no option of the sort: "She was very annoying and unlikeable in the beginning, but she evolved through the series and she grew up to becoming a really great and likeable character (especially since KoD)". I have the suspicion that such an opton would win over the undiscriminate Egwene-liking option. Personally I voted for "Egwene is great" since it is the situation at the end, but still... I would say that the discriminating point between her annoying period and her great period is when she came to the Wise ones to pay her toh. Others would see the discrimination point in another scene, but that's a totally different question.

And on the question about the dangerous tendencies... yes she has a lot. But pick me any single great person without really disturbing tendencies :D Actually generally I wouldn't object against a good character without any disturbing tendencies, but in the case of Jordan's Wheel of Time, such a flawless characters would be simply alien to the general style.

[irerancincpkc]

I just can't wait till Rand shows her up in their upcoming meeting...

[GonzoTheGreat]

I just can't wait till Rand shows her up in their upcoming meeting...
He won't. That's pretty obvious, and I don't like it at all.

[irerancincpkc]

He won't. That's pretty obvious, and I don't like it at all.
Shhhh. Positive thinking brings positive results! :D

She deserves it, and Rand is really the only one who can do it right now, unless Moiraine... but no, we need Rand to do it! However, if he won't, I will be actually mad. I might need a jog to calm down..

[Davian93]

She went through a really really annoying phase (books 5-10) but she has gotten better lately.

[Terez]

In books 5-10? adbf is right...the line between her annoying phase (books 1-6) and her mature phase is pretty clear.

And Yuri...the middle option covers a great deal of ground. As for Choice #3, I wanted to see how many of you would go that far with it. That doesn't mean there's no room for extreme opinions in the middle. ;)

[Ozymandias]

Until KoD, I hated Egwene, just as I despise all the main female characters aside from Moiraine and Min. They're all arrogant know it alls who usually know nothing, are ungrateful, and generally pretty stupid and deceitful. They have their butts saved by other people about 95% of the time, rarely achieve anything on their own, and take credit for the accomplishments of other people and simultaneously criticize those people for succeeding where they failed. They are bossy, and basically exploit their looks or lie in order to get what they want.

By contrast, the male characters tend to be a little more humble (much more if we take Rand out of th equation) smarter, more dynamic, more likeable, and more acquiescent to working with others and giving others credit where credit is due, to the point of demeaning themselves.

Egwene gained a little standing in my eyes with here work in the Tower as a captive, but prior to that she was down in the gutter with most evil characters along with Elayne and Nynaeve. She moved up into Aviendha's level now... which means she's barely tolerable, as supposed to downright unreadable.

When I reread the books, I always skip chapters with the women. Always. I've always thought RJ might be sexist, because his female's are such unlikeable people.

[Brita]

I've always thought RJ might be sexist, because his female's are such unlikeable people.

Haha- that is definitely a matter of opinion. I like most of his female characters. Remember the whole basis for this series (or at least a Major foundation) is a world where women have a power that men don't, where women wield the greatest influence. Since most of the women we know are channelers, they tend to be arrogant due to their influential and powerful position. It is consistent, well thought out, intended and masterfully written.

Yes, they could be frustrating. But the men's attitude of "Duh, I just don't understand women" or "Duh, I'm no great leader, just a farmboy who don't know nothing" can also be very frustrating.

But it all fits with RJ's themes and world politics.

[Ozymandias]

Yes, they could be frustrating. But the men's attitude of "Duh, I just don't understand women" or "Duh, I'm no great leader, just a farmboy who don't know nothing" can also be very frustrating.



But the men evolve. Mat and Rand and Perrin no longer say that. That catechism was charming for a while, and as it started to get annoying, they stop saying it. Perrin is uncomfortable with servants, yes, but he accepts his leadership role now, as do Mat and Rand. As they've gained power and influence, their maturity has progressed along with it.

A character like Nynaeve has actually regressed. She's still stupid, still arrogant, and still acts like a child most of the time. Same with Elayne. Elayne's character has not developed at all from the moment we met her. She is still arrogant and unlikely to admit she's wrong on almost every occasion, and still tends to blame others for failures that may very well be hers.

Egwene was the same way. He position as Amyrlin and now captive has matured her, which I like. But for the most part, the female characters are stuck in place while the male characters progress and gain maturity, and their personalities change as the story evolves. Rand has gone from naive and caring to hard and jaded. Mat has gone from womanizer and gambler to responsible, talented general who cares deeply about those around him. Perrin has gone from a guy who refuses to acknowledge his own achievement to a man who accepts what he has to do, and does it, using the means at his disposal instead of constantly asking others to make sure they want to be there.

You cannot say that the women in the book have done as much. They show consistently poor writing, in my opinion, and until recently, most of them were basically the same character with different plot lines; they were all beautiful, all stubborn, all in love with a dangerous man (Gawyn, Rand, or Lan), and all of them had an arrogant and prissy personality. Egwene has veered off, fortunately, but Nynaeve has consistently been the worst developed character in the series.

[Brita]

Ozymandias Said:

When I reread the books, I always skip chapters with the women.

So how do you know if they have grown in character or not? :p

That bit of teasing aside- my friend and I were just talking about Elaine this weekend- and how she is very disappointing- she had potential to become a really interesting character. But you're right, she has hardly moved at all in character development.

Nyneave has finally recognized Lan for the great man he is, let him go and rallied the troops behind him. She has also let go of a lot of her anger and learned to control her temper. I'd say she has matured quite a bit.

[irerancincpkc]

I actually think Nynaeve has gotten better; I didn't like her at first, I guess she is like an acquired taste. :D

Moiraine and Min, I've always loved. Nynaeve is getting up there, and I like Siuan. Other than that, on the woman's side, I'm not sure...

[Yuri33]

And Yuri...the middle option covers a great deal of ground.

Which is part of the reason I chose it.

I can name (and support) numerous positive and negative things about Egwene even limiting the inquiry to the last 2 books. So I'll remain firmly (and not extremely) in the neutral category.

[Kurtz]

I have an absolute corker of a thread brewing. This thread is giving me a great deal of information.

[Terez]

Why didn't you vote Kurtz?

[Kurtz]

Don't want to give the wolves anything to feast on ;)

[Terez]

Wolves? I don't see any. :p

[irerancincpkc]

Don't want to give the wolves anything to feast on ;)
I take it that means you are on the right side! :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

Moiraine and Min, I've always loved. Nynaeve is getting up there, and I like Siuan. Other than that, on the woman's side, I'm not sure...
Well, there's Verin. And Sorilea. She's quite likeable, as long as she stays firmly inside the books. I suspect she wouldn't be as much fun if she got out. Of course, neither of those two had much growing to do, they were already plenty mature when we first met them.

[irerancincpkc]

Well, there's Verin. And Sorilea. She's quite likeable, as long as she stays firmly inside the books. I suspect she wouldn't be as much fun if she got out. Of course, neither of those two had much growing to do, they were already plenty mature when we first met them.
I forgot Verin! :D She is just a mystery, and 87 1/2 times better than Egwene! :D

[4Alethinos]

I am very disturbed by anyone who could make that judgment call. Faile is the most annoying female, to me, than any other single female character in the series. I would happily vote to have her burned at the stake just so I could heat up Death Wings at the celebration feast.

I like Nynaeve as her flaws are so human and her bravery and skill are both very powerful. I like Semirhage better than Faile. She, at least, has some rationale for her actions other than hidebound custom from her homeland.

I have had my moments with Egwene. She is so typical a woman of The WoT that it is almost a kneejerk reaction for her to think that Rand is an idiot for not paying attention to his female advisors. She, of course, knows better than he what needs to be done.

I am so looking forward to Rand meeting with Egwene. Her anger will be like water off of a very oily ducks back. Oh yeah, his being the most powerful Ta'Veren on the planet will not affect the impact of that meeting, at all, at all. :rolleyes:

'Other than that, how did you like Rand's escape from the chest at Dubai'as Wells, Egwene?" :eek:

[Terez]

They might pull something nifty like Goten, Trunks and Piccolo did after Majin Buu escaped the hyperbolic time chamber. They had destroyed the entrance/exit in a noble sacrifice to trap the evildoer, but then he got away and left them trapped there....

[irerancincpkc]

4A, Faile bothers me a lot, but Egwene is in a higher up position, and therefore can cause a lot more damage. And we have to read a lot more of Egwene than Faile...

[Terez]

4A, Faile bothers me a lot, but Egwene is in a higher up position, and therefore can cause a lot more damage.
And you still don't realize that's a good thing? Egwene will be doing damage to Rand's enemies...probably starting with Elaida, who kidnapped Rand, and Alviarin, who has the names of every living Black Ajah member.

[Terez]

Oh, and I'm not sure why I passed this up
I take it that means you are on the right side! :D
Kurtz has been in this argument before - you should know what side he's on. ;)

[Brita]

Yep- that's why I bonded him ;)

[GonzoTheGreat]

Faile has been egging Perrin on to become a world famous killer of Trollocs.
Egwene has been egging Rand on to be obsequient to every AS that met him.

Which proposed course of action is more likely to harm the Shadow?

[Ozymandias]

I was about to agree a little with 4A, but then he called Nynaeve a likeable character. I have never liked a character less. I'd rather let the Dark One use me as a punching bag than have a RL convo with her.

Faile I happen to like a bit. She has her faults, as does every character, but for the most part I think she's a strong character instead of an annoying one. She's got her nice little catchphrases which come out every so often, she's clearly devoted to Perrin, and she's also a leader.

That said, I thought she was a much better character before she was kidnapped. And, of course, as a female character, the highest she can rise is best of the worst. I mean the women in this series would be enough to make any man bat for the other team.

[irerancincpkc]

Faile has been egging Perrin on to become a world famous killer of Trollocs.
Egwene has been egging Rand on to be obsequient to every AS that met him.

Which proposed course of action is more likely to harm the Shadow?
Exactly. To answer your question, Terez, Egwene is in a position to hurt Rand, because of how stupid she is (see Gonzo's statement above), while Faile is not.

[the silent speaker]

That's cruel, Ozymandias. It's not Nynaeve's fault she's so stupid others become stupider in her presence.

[Terez]

Exactly. To answer your question, Terez, Egwene is in a position to hurt Rand, because of how stupid she is (see Gonzo's statement above), while Faile is not. Which raises another question...are you really naive enough to believe that Egwene will hurt Rand?


edited in an attempt to be nicer and spell better

[Verin Mathwin]

No matter how Egwene is in the rest of the series I love her for meeting her toh in book 6. I find her annoying in books 1-5, book 6 I love her, 7-10 she is acceptable and then KoD she is great again

[Birgitte]

Seconded, Aes Sedai of Mine. And to be perfectly honest, if her and Rand start yelling at each other, I'm just going to be really damn irritated at them both. I don't care who wins their petty little argument. It isn't going to be at a time where any of their grievances against each other aren't going to be petty. The only way they'll meet up is to join together to fight the Last Battle and in the face of that, all their problems are petty. Who cares if Rand is respecting Aes Sedai when the Dark One is breaking loose and attacking the world? Who cares if Egwene is respecting the Dragon Reborn during the same? They're going to be too busy, so if they end up fighting then, I'm going to be disgusted with them both.

And Ozy, what about Birgitte? I would add her to your list of female characters that don't read as the exact same character in different plotlines. Just look at her attitude toward Mat. She's actually a friend to him. Which makes her the only woman, including his wife, who doesn't look down on him for his jokester side.

[Terez]

if her and Rand start yelling at each other
She and Rand. And it's going to happen - Egwene had a dream and Elaida had a Foretelling. :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

Which raises another question...are you really naive enough to believe that Egwene will hurt Rand?
Having read the books, I would say that the evidence does not support any other answer than "yes".

When the Tower embassy first arrived, Egwene noticed Rand checking the servants for signs of the characteristic AS face. She thought to herself that that check was not good enough. She did not tell him of this problem with his security measure. Instead she protected AS secrets. Did the abduction which followed as a result of this hurt Rand?

[Ozymandias]

Very true, Birgitte. Of course, your post almost reinforces my point; these characters are so rare that its tough to think of them.

I like Birgitte a lot. She's never an idiot and never arrogant. And never blames others for her mistakes.

Unlike most females. In the stories, that is ;)

[Yuri33]

(whoops! posted in the wrong thread!)

[Terez]

Having read the books, I would say that the evidence does not support any other answer than "yes".

When the Tower embassy first arrived, Egwene noticed Rand checking the servants for signs of the characteristic AS face. She thought to herself that that check was not good enough. She did not tell him of this problem with his security measure. Instead she protected AS secrets. Did the abduction which followed as a result of this hurt Rand?
We've had this discussion before, Gonzo - she was trying to tell him, and he wouldn't let her, so she gave up.

[irerancincpkc]

Egwene puts other things, Aes Sedai things, over Rand. I do not think it is anywhere near naive think that Egwene will hurt Rand, knowingly or not.

[GonzoTheGreat]

We've had this discussion before, Gonzo - she was trying to tell him, and he wouldn't let her, so she gave up.
When?
I've just reread the scene, and there's nothing that suggests to me that she is about to mention it. The closest she comes to it is saying that you can't see what Ajah an AS is by looking at her face. And that is rather far from what he needed to know.
Egwene puts other things, Aes Sedai things, over Rand.
That is indeed the problem with Egwene.

[Terez]

Why is that a problem? It's a part of her job.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Why is that a problem? It's a part of her job.
I don't think so. Aes Sedai means Servant of All. That means that her highest priority should be the good of everyone, not just that of the few in the Tower hierarchy. So when the good of everyone clashes with that of the AS, she should put the world above the Tower. She doesn't do that.

[Terez]

When has she put the good of the Tower above the good of the world?

[the silent speaker]

I could be misremembering but wasn't she in a position where she was afraid that any movement would expose her to the Tower Aes Sedai?

[GonzoTheGreat]

terez, I think that the following is an example of that. I'll quote it together with the commentary I gave when I used it in one of my Egwene threads, thus saving myself the trouble of doing more than cut&paste.
ACOS 210 Unseen Eyes
"Will you bring these Aes Sedai to kneel to the Car'a'carn?"
Startled, Egwene nearly fell the last foot to the floorstones rather than sitting. There was no hesitation in her answer, though. "I can't do that, Bair. And would not if I could. Our loyalty is to the Tower, to the Aes Sedai as a whole, above even the lands we were born in."
C: Either Egwene is too stupid to understand that the world includes both the land she was born in, and the Tower, or she thinks that the Tower is more important than the world. Either way, she clearly does not believe that anything, not even the Last Battle itself, could outweigh the interests of the Tower.

A possibility I did not explicitly mention is that Egwene does not understand that Rand is not a ruler of an individual land, or a couple of lands, but the champion of all of existence.

TSS, I think that you are indeed misremembering somewhat. During the meeting, she was afraid that movement might expose her, and that fear was probably well grounded. But after the meeting she stayed a while and talked with Rand, and then she did not mention her observation of his flawed check. She could have, but did not.

[Nazbaque]

Egwene has her moments but to me she is still more of an annoyance than a neutral character. The Tower scenes are at this point very interesting because quite frankly Egwene could be worse than Elaida who in the end is an idiot. Rand could handle Elaida without too much suffered damage, but not Egwene if she decides to try and take over his position which would fit in her character.

KoD has shown Egwene's sensible view of the Tower which in the end stands on novices and Accepted as in those who will become Aes Sedai and thus should be cared for. Unfortunately she still shares a particular trait with Elaida: both are blind to what they don't want to see up to a point when it is practically dancing on their noses.

Egwene has not yet fully accepted the fact that Rand is the Dragon Reborn or at least doesn't understand what it means, which is that he will battle the Dark One and very likely die (from their point of view it is not certain). If she did understand this she should show some bloody grattitude to him for it or at least feel it, but no. So she is either an ungrateful little (hey she is at least 30 cm shorter than me I can call her that) bitch or sentimentally blind. The first is obviously bad and the second could be cute and sweet, if she wasn't supposed to be a very very VERY observant leader.

[Terez]

terez, I think that the following is an example of that. I'll quote it together with the commentary I gave when I used it in one of my Egwene threads, thus saving myself the trouble of doing more than cut&paste.

A possibility I did not explicitly mention is that Egwene does not understand that Rand is not a ruler of an individual land, or a couple of lands, but the champion of all of existence.

TSS, I think that you are indeed misremembering somewhat. During the meeting, she was afraid that movement might expose her, and that fear was probably well grounded. But after the meeting she stayed a while and talked with Rand, and then she did not mention her observation of his flawed check. She could have, but did not.
I rather think that Egwene realizes something that Rand is not quite mature enough to see yet - the Aes Sedai can fight for the world at the Last Battle without submitting to him as their master. Rand has lately, due to Cadsuane's effort, been coming to realize that they are all fighting for the same thing. Forcing his captors into submission, and the rebels that were there, served a purpose, but for the rest of the Tower, Egwene's efforts will work better.

[GonzoTheGreat]

They do not have to submit to him as their master, but they should submit to him as their battle leader. Going into war with two or more armies who distrust each other yet are nominally allies is a recipe for disaster.

A beautiful example of this was the Eastern Front in the early stages of WWI. The Germans expected the Russians to be very slow with mobilising, so they only stationed a small holding force there. The Russians were quicker than anticipated, and attacked with two armies each of which was far bigger than the German troops there. But the Russian commanders did not cooperate, and the Germans managed to use that to their advantage. The result was that the Germans ended up with a big problem: what to do with hundreds of thousands casualties of war you hadn't expected, when you have only a couple of tens of thousands of troops yourself?

Rand would do best to tell the AS: it is my way or the high way. In other words: either they follow his orders or they sit the battle out on the sidelines. On those conditions, I think that at least the entire Green Ajah would follow his orders, especially if he tells them that they don't have to swear fealty, as long as they promise to do their bit.

Egwene need not do more than Mat: support Rand, and acknowledge him as the actual leader. But she is not willing to do the latter, and as a result she isn't doing the former either. Mat never swore fealty, and if he ever bowed to Rand, then it was meant sarcastic. Yet he is one of the most important assets of the Light, because he is willing to follow necessary orders.

[Terez]

They do not have to submit to him as their master, but they should submit to him as their battle leader.
Rand isn't a battle leader, though. Also, Egwene is working on getting the Aes Sedai to trust Rand, and she's doing it by working on gaining their trust for herself. Egwene supports Rand, and if she leads the Aes Sedai as a strong leader, they will trust him by default.

[irerancincpkc]

No, they wouldn't trust Rand, because Egwene does not trust him.

[Terez]

Are you serious? If she doesn't trust Rand, then why would she say all this?

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 24 - Honey in the Tea

He watched the silent exchange with puzzled interest, though Cariandre plucked at his sleeve, urging him again to his walk in the gardens. “Sisters bring you water when you thirst?” he asked when Barasine and Nesita glided away.

“A tea they think will improve my mood,” she told him. “You look well, Mattin Stepaneos. For a man Elaida had kidnapped.” That tale was the talk of the novices’ quarters, too.

Cariandre hissed and opened her mouth, but he spoke up first, his jaw tight. “Elaida did save me from murder by al’Thor,” he said. The Red nodded approvingly.

“Why would you think yourself in danger from him?” Egwene asked.

The man grunted. “He did murder Morgase in Caemlyn, and Colavaere in Cairhien. He destroyed half the Sun Palace killing her, I did hear. And I did hear of Tairen High Lords poisoned or stabbed to death in Cairhien. Who can say what other rulers he did murder and destroy the bodies?” Cariandre nodded again, smiling. You might have thought him a boy reciting his lessons. Did the woman have no understanding of men? He certainly saw it. His jaw grew harder still, and his hands clenched into fists for a moment.

“Colavaere hanged herself,” Egwene said, making sure she sounded patient. “The Sun Palace was damaged later by someone trying to kill the Dragon Reborn, maybe the Forsaken, and according to Elayne Trakand, her mother was murdered by Rahvin. Rand has announced his support for her claims to both the Lion Throne and the Sun Throne. He hasn’t killed any of the Cairhienin nobles rebelling against him, or the High Lords in rebellion. In fact, he named one of them his Steward in Tear.”

“I think that is quite-” Cariandre began, pulling her shawl up onto her shoulders, but Egwene went on right over her.

“Any sister could have told you all that. If she wanted to. If they were speaking to one another. Think why you see only Red sisters. Have you seen sisters of any two Ajahs speaking? You’ve been kidnapped and brought aboard a sinking ship.”

[Yuri33]

For all the extreme Egwene-haters chiming up, I'm going to have to say that Terez may be an extreme Egwene-lover. No one else would spend such time trying to defend against these accusations :)

[Terez]

I'm not defending Egwene so much as fighting misogyny. You guys should all know by now that Rand is my favorite character - I don't think Egwene even makes it into the top 5. :p She's still great, though...

[irerancincpkc]

If Egwene trusted him, she wouldn't think he would need to be led by the White Tower, and she does think that.

[Terez]

Led by the White Tower? He needs the Aes Sedai, but I don't think she ever expected him to submit to the Aes Sedai, unlike you guys expect them to submit to him...at least not since she learned that Aes Sedai are just human. What she wants to do is bring the Tower to support Rand - that should be really obvious. ;)

[Yuri33]

There's nothing misogynistic about the desire for Egwene to become one of Rand's "trusted lieutenants." That's the way I feel about everyone in the series, men and women alike.

But I do agree most of the accusations here are too extreme. That doesn't mean there are some that aren't.

[GonzoTheGreat]

... and according to Elayne Trakand, her mother was murdered by Rahvin.
And from whom did Elayne learn this? From Egwene, who actually was present when Rand first heard about Morgase's (supposed) murder. So she could have given her own testimony, telling Mattin that she had heard about that murder a day before Rand even went to Caemlyn.
But she did not do this, just as she did not give this information to Gawyn.

In both cases, what good could come from secrecy?

[Nazbaque]

Misogyny? Heck I'm not even sure I spelled it correctly. That is a cheap insult Terez and has no place in civilized debate. Some comments here may be extreme but they don't blame Egwene's faults on her womanhood.

But since you were so ready to fight for the cause... Egwene thinks in lines of this logic: 1) Fact: Men are stronger than women (in general that is) 2) Fact (in her mind): Men and women are equals 3) Result: Women are smarter. This nicely shows how while she happens to be wrong she really doesn't fit to it herself thus proving it wrong. If women were smarter than men every woman would beat every man in academical exams with a few exceptions yet it is not so. The results are usually very close to 50:50 and if women beat men more often with those few percents I'd say it's due to the hard work of the indivituals. This fact is of course not available to Egwene but the thought pattern remains. She doesn't even concider other possibilities. Women are more agile than men. Just like men being stronger this your basic body structure result. One way to show this for real is a simple test: Take a smaal chair or a stool then go to face a wall or a closed door so that the distance from your toes to the wall is three and a half times the length of your own feet. Then use the stool as a support and lean to the wall with your forehead. Once you feel supported enough lift the stool up from the floor so it cannot support you. If you are a woman you can get up easily without putting the stool back on the floor. If you are a man you cannot. This simple test may not have been discovered by the people of TR but I'm sure the Far Dareis Mai have found a dozen other ways to proove it and a certain ex Maiden could have told her if she had concidered the simple question: How are there so many Maidens if men are stronger than women? Thus prooving once again that she doesn't fit her own logic.

This however isn't why I don't like her character. Anyone can be wrong. It is her attitude with it that annoys me. She follows her logic to the extreme: All men are stupid. Every single man she knows has proven her wrong and she just metaphorically shrugs at it as something unusual like strong women and not really important.

For this same reason I don't like Elayne though she isn't as extreme about it and thus much more bareable.

Nynaeve shares the same logic but her attitude towards the matter is completely different. She tries to proove that she is as good as any man on the less intellectually chalenging areas. This is why I rather like her character. One of the reasons anyway.

Aviendha has downright said that men aren't stupid by default and Min is an indivitualist who doesn't define ppl by what they are born as. So they are quite likeable.

Yes I'm an anti-racist. And while this makes me a racist by definition as in not liking ppl because of an ideology, it isn't really a problem since I already hate myself for other reasons.

[Terez]

Misogyny? Heck I'm not even sure I spelled it correctly. That is a cheap insult Terez and has no place in civilized debate. Some comments here may be extreme but they don't blame Egwene's faults on her womanhood.
lol...I'm not. I'm just blaming the extreme hatred for her on misogyny. You don't ever see any girls in the hater club...

[Weird Harold]

lol...I'm not. I'm just blaming the extreme hatred for her on misogyny. You don't ever see any girls in the hater club...
It's an agist conspiracy as well. :D Insofar as I know the ages of posters, the Egwene haters, and those dissasified with the female characters in general, tend to be young (under 25) as well as male.

I attribute that to just not having met anyone like those characters in real life -- yet.

[Nazbaque]

Are you saying that as young males we are incapable of indivitual opinions? I actually have met girls remarkably close to Egwene's character and liked even less. So there goes that claim.

[Weird Harold]

Are you saying that as young males we are incapable of indivitual opinions? I actually have met girls remarkably close to Egwene's character and liked even less. So there goes that claim.
No, I'm simpl;y making an observation that there seems to be a corelation between "male and under twenty-five" and "RJ doesn't write interesting or believable female characters" and especially a coreleation with the "Egwene Haters" and "Faile Must Die" contingents.

Make of those corelations what you will.

[Yuri33]

You don't ever see any girls in the hater club...

Let's see, there are 4 votes for choice #3. Even if all those votes were by men, you're going to generalize that to misogyny?

What if there were no innkeepers' children in the hater club? Do haters resent her because of her connections to the hospitality industry?

[Weird Harold]

Let's see, there are 4 votes for choice #3. Even if all those votes were by men, you're going to generalize that to misogyny?

What if there were no innkeepers' children in the hater club? Do haters resent her because of her connections to the hospitality industry?
There are 31 voters.
There are 104 active users (within the last 60 days)

1/3 is a statistically significant sample.

All four #3 votes are (presumably) young males. (the only verifiable age is 22)

2/9 #2 votes are by females (one young and one of indeterminate age)

Only one verifiable age less than 25 and 8/10 females voted for #1.

Those are the facts, make of them what you will.

[Terez]

I think that Gonzo is in his 30's. Naz I think is around 20 (maybe less) and Spammer claims to be 18. Dunno how old Ozy is...probably less than 30.

[Terez]

And from whom did Elayne learn this? From Egwene, who actually was present when Rand first heard about Morgase's (supposed) murder. So she could have given her own testimony, telling Mattin that she had heard about that murder a day before Rand even went to Caemlyn.
But she did not do this, just as she did not give this information to Gawyn.

In both cases, what good could come from secrecy?
She told Elayne's opinion on it because it's Elayne's opinion that matters the most. She didn't tell Gawyn that because it was obvious that he wouldn't believe her without proof. All she told him was that she knew Rand did not kill her, and that she would find proof, and she got him to promise not to try to hurt Rand.

[Weird Harold]

Naz I think is around 20 (maybe less)

His profile says he's 22, 23 in August.

The others don't have a birthday (with year) or age listed in their profiles.

[Terez]

His profile says he's 22, 23 in August. He lies! lol...I could have sworn I remembered him saying he was younger than that...

Also, I should add that the only other person I expected to be enough of an Egwene-hater to vote #3 is Yuri. I think his views are close to #3. :) Also, if Callie were here, he would have voted #3 for sure. Another 2 males under 30. :)

[Weird Harold]

She told Elayne's opinion on it because it's Elayne's opinion that matters the most.

Matin Stepaneous is definitely going to give more credence to Eleyne Trakand's opinion that he is to some novice in the WT, no matter that she was an eyewitness to Rand's alibi.

Eayne is, after all, a fellow aristocrat and therfore far more reliable than an jumped up innkeeper's daughter or even the Amyrlin Seat. :rolleyes:

[Weird Harold]

He lies! lol...I could have sworn I remembered him saying he was younger than that...

Also, I should add that the only other person I expected to be enough of an Egwene-hater to vote #3 is Yuri. I think his views are close to #3. :) Also, if Callie were here, he would have voted #3 for sure. Another 2 males under 30. :)
Even if there are a few anomolies, the corelations of age and gender to Egwene dislike (and female character silkie in genberal) are fairly clear and straight-forward.

[Terez]

I agree - and I looked at the votes again, and realized I forgot Anubis (Neilbert). I was really surprised he didn't vote #3, considering some of the Egwene debates we've had in the past. Another male under 30...

[Yuri33]

Also, I should add that the only other person I expected to be enough of an Egwene-hater to vote #3 is Yuri. I think his views are close to #3.

I think I'll be the judge of what my views are closest to. And I don't know what I said to justify your label of Egwene-hater, as I've said both positive and negative things about her, but it's your label. I think you might have trouble believing anyone can be truly neutral on a character.

Even if there are a few anomolies, the corelations of age and gender to Egwene dislike (and female character silkie in genberal) are fairly clear and straight-forward.

I just finished a thesis full of statistical analysis. I'm not going to spend the time breaking down ages and sample sizes, but I know enough to confidently state that any statistical conclusions from this poll about misogyny and\or ageism are essentially meaningless. In fact, as I said earlier, the poll choices themselves are suspect, since they lack symmetry.

[Terez]

I think I'll be the judge of what my views are closest to. You can't, cause you're biased. :p
And I don't know what I said to justify your label of Egwene-hater
Yes you do. Pretty much anything negative about Egwene qualifies, because anything beyond "she's annoying sometimes" is extreme. But it basically comes down to the suggestion that Egwene thinks that the interests of the Tower are more important than the interests of the world, or that she doesn't appreciate Rand. It seems to me that a little misogyny is required to actually believe that crap.

[Yuri33]

Pretty much anything negative about Egwene qualifies,

Now that's what qualifies as biased.

But it basically comes down to the suggestion that Egwene thinks that the interests of the Tower are more important than the interests of the world, or that she doesn't appreciate Rand. It seems to me that a little misogyny is required to actually believe that crap.

My criticisms about Egwene stem from her belief that the ends justifies the means--and I've stated that before. There's only one clear counter-example of this theme--replacing Bode with herself to disable the harbor chains. Just about every other instance of her actions\words fits in with this theme, including a staunch belief in the strength of the WT or any particular attitude towards Rand. I've never questioned her dedication, only her methods.

If you want to call that misogyny, that's your right, but its offensive to believe that I hold such attitudes simply because I'm not in love with a character.

[Weird Harold]

I just finished a thesis full of statistical analysis. I'm not going to spend the time breaking down ages and sample sizes, but I know enough to confidently state that any statistical conclusions from this poll about misogyny and\or ageism are essentially meaningless. In fact, as I said earlier, the poll choices themselves are suspect, since they lack symmetry.

There are 120 registered members on this forum, 100 of them have been active in the last 60 days.

Somewhere between 25% and 33% of those members responded to the poll -- (in general, as their past posting would lead someone who frequents the forums to predict) -- and there is a clear division in age and gender in those responses.

How is that NOT statistically significant for the population of this forum.

There are few anomolies and the poll is admittedly worded in a less than scientific manner, but the age and gender divisions aren't particularly dependent on the wording of the questions since they've all responded in similar fashion every time Egwene bashing gets started (or a faile must die thread gets going.)

Make of the gender and age divisions what you will as far as demonstrating agism and misogynism -- the pattern is there for anyone to see if they're willing to look beyond the quibbles about unscientific wordings and populations too small to apply statistics to.

If this poll's results were anomalous in relation to long espoused positions on Egwene's character or female characters in the WOT you might have a point about sample sizes and such -- but it is NOT anaomalous, it just puts numbers on the divisions.

[Terez]

If I had worded the poll more fairly, for example:

1 - I like her
2 - Meh
3 - I don't like her

The only difference in the results would have been more people in the choice #3 category. And still all male. ;)

[Yuri33]

the pattern is there for anyone to see if they're willing to look beyond the quibbles about unscientific wordings and populations too small to apply statistics to.

We see patterns all around us. We use statistics specifically to determine which of those patterns we can make valid conclusions with and how far we can generalize those conclusions. If you want to do an ANOVA and a power analysis and begin to draw conclusions from them, that's fine. I don't doubt that there are true Egwene-haters (they've made themselves quite vocal, now and in the past). I don't doubt that there are misogynists or ageists, either. But I do object to believing that to hate Egwene is to be one or the other, or that those who hate Egwene do so out of some latent fear\hatred of females and\or old people.

I also believe that you and Terez are forgetting that the very definition of misogyny is the indiscriminate hatred of women. This is a poll about one woman. It's this character in particular that draws out so much criticism, and not other female characters. With a host of strong female leads in the series, why would misogynistic impulses only manifest themselves when this one character is discussed?

If you truly believe you can reproduce these patterns for all (or even a majority) of the women in the series, then perhaps you have a case for misogyny. Until then, to put that label on those who hate Egwene in particular is itself extreme.

Terez has put me into the category of Egwene-haters, and by extension, misogynists. To simply attempt to explain my opinions based on my sex and my age is extremely insulting, especially when I've offered alternative criticisms of Egwene that are not misogynistic in the slightest. My objections are gender neutral.

[irerancincpkc]

Spammer claims to be 18.
Claims?

Look, I don't care if I'm 18, 57 or 118 years old, I don't dislike Egwene because she is female, I dislike her because of the way she acts, specifically towards Rand. If Egwene was Eglad, a male, and he acted the way Egwene does, I would dislike him just as much, maybe more so.

[Nazbaque]

He lies! lol...I could have sworn I remembered him saying he was younger than that...

Also, I should add that the only other person I expected to be enough of an Egwene-hater to vote #3 is Yuri. I think his views are close to #3. :) Also, if Callie were here, he would have voted #3 for sure. Another 2 males under 30. :)
Yeah I told you I was 20 when I first met you in chat. That was two years ago. You do the math.

I've already told you why I don't like Egwene: her attitude. Also I would like to say that Aviendha happens to be my favourite character. That should shoot the misogyny claim down.

But lets attend to some reverse psychology.

1) Why are you terez directing our dislike of Egwene to her womanhood when every single one of us has non sexist reasons for our opinions? Is it because you only like her because she is female?

2) Why are you WH so eager to labelize us and put us in those little bottles and arrenge them into an alphabetical order so to speak? Are you afraid of indivitualism? Why?

I think you both should think on that and then try to understand why your behavior is insulting. After all terez you asked our opinions, we just gave them. We are not demanding you to adopt our views. So why do you insult us? Did you call this poll just so you could throw shit at those who disagree with you on a matter as trivial as this? What is your problem?

[Weird Harold]

2) Why are you WH so eager to labelize us and put us in those little bottles and arrenge them into an alphabetical order so to speak? Are you afraid of indivitualism? Why?

Do you deny the corelations of age and gender in this particular poll exist?

I merely pointed out the corelations: You make of them what you will.

I've also pointed out that those same age and gender groupings tend to have similar positions on many characters -- "Faile must Die," for example and most of the groups that dislike Egwene and Faile rank Mat as (one of) their favorite characters.

The same groupings tend to say, "I skip over the female POVs when I reread the series."

Make of that observation what you will as well.

There are demographic differences in how all of us see the series -- liking or disliking Egwene and/or all/most of the female characters happens to be one of the clearest demographic differences.

Make of that observation what you will as well.

[Nazbaque]

You didn't answer my question

[Weird Harold]

You didn't answer my question
Yess I did: I'm not trying to put anyone in neat little cubbyholes, I'm just observing that there is an age and gender corelation in this poll -- and in other common sentiments.

Make of that what you will.

PS: YOU didn't answer mine either: Does the corelation exist or not?

[Nazbaque]

Make of it what I will eh? Well I make of it that you have some weird need to divide us into factions who think alike at every turn. But you didn't answer my question: Why?

[Weird Harold]

Make of it what I will eh? Well I make of it that you have some weird need to divide us into factions who think alike at every turn. But you didn't answer my question: Why?
I don't need to divide people into cliques and factions: people divide themselves into cliques and factions. I simply observed that the cliquesand factions tend to organize themselves along age and gender lines.

If being grouped with the "under-twenty-five males" bothers you, then stop posting like an under-twenty-five male. (There is at least one under-twenty-five male on here that doesn't run in lockstep with the others but I would never have guessed his age correctly if he didn't have it in his profile.)

[the silent speaker]

You're both magnificent of length and splendid of girth. Now put those things away before someone loses an eye.

[Nazbaque]

I don't need to divide people into cliques and factions: people divide themselves into cliques and factions. I simply observed that the cliquesand factions tend to organize themselves along age and gender lines.

If being grouped with the "under-twenty-five males" bothers you, then stop posting like an under-twenty-five male. (There is at least one under-twenty-five male on here that doesn't run in lockstep with the others but I would never have guessed his age correctly if he didn't have it in his profile.)
Congrats you just crossed the line into labelizing. But I'll rephrase it for you. Why did you look up our profiles and then draw conclusion on it?

And btw statistics aren't reliable in any group of less than a thousand.

[Verin Mathwin]

I don't think WH or Terez are calling any of the people that dislike Egwene (or Faile or whatever woman in the series) mysoginists... Terez just mentioned it more as a joke than anything else. And WH's grouping of people by age and gender definitely had nothing to do with mysoginy (am I spelling that correctly?) Y'all need to calm down. WH just saw a pattern and stated it to the rest of us. Who cares if WH has put us into groups according to our age and gender? Does that do anything to us? Does it change how we think and feel now? Do we now need to fit into that category because WH has 'put' us there? No? So get over it.

And while I am the guy that is under 25 (18 to be exact) that voted #1 so I don't fall into the pattern of young guys not liking Egwene... I don't really care for Faile so he was right about that.

Edit: I just realized that my age wasn't displayed in my profile so I guess that makes two guys under 25 that don't fit in.

[Terez]

Yeah, you make at least 2. And of course I don't think you guys are misogynists. Just because you have misogynistic tendencies doesn't make you a full-blown misogynist. :p

[Nazbaque]

Well there aren't even tendencies. All there is are two physical facts: men are stronger and women more agile. Beyond that we are all human beings.

[Terez]

Yet Egwene's human flaws are somehow worse than Rand's, and Mat's, etc...

Word to the wise: they aren't. It's all a matter of perspective. ;)

[Weird Harold]

Edit: I just realized that my age wasn't displayed in my profile so I guess that makes two guys under 25 that don't fit in.

Actually, since your handle is a female character, I had you grouped with the female voters. :D (Your gender isn't in your profile either.)

[Nazbaque]

What so now they are all measured up characters with equal amounts of flaws and virtues and we should all like them equally? I told you Aviendha is my favourite character. So how is that giving me misogynist tendensies? We haven't even discussed Rand in this thread in more than a role concept.

[irerancincpkc]

Yet Egwene's human flaws are somehow worse than Rand's, and Mat's, etc...

Word to the wise: they aren't. It's all a matter of perspective. ;)
I'm sorry, but that is stupid. Yes, every human has flaws, but there are different degrees of flaws. Not everyone has the same degree! By your logic there, Egwene and Rand's human flaws are on the same level as Semi's, or Moridin. So yes, I can say Egwene's are worse.

[GonzoTheGreat]

She told Elayne's opinion on it because it's Elayne's opinion that matters the most. She didn't tell Gawyn that because it was obvious that he wouldn't believe her without proof. All she told him was that she knew Rand did not kill her, and that she would find proof, and she got him to promise not to try to hurt Rand.The first might be reasonable, sort of, apart from the fact that she herself is (or should be, at least) a far better witness.
As for the second: what proof can she offer, much stronger than her own personal knowledge that Morgase was killed days by Rahvin (posing as Gaebril) before Rand went to avenge her?

Suppose that you had personal knowledge that someone accused of murder had been hundreds of miles away from the scene of the crime at the time it took place. Would you then withhold that evidence in order to seek better, or would you consider this good enough to offer as a (near) perfect alibi?

Assuming that Egwene believes Morgase is dead, then what better evidence could she possibly hope to find?

[Weird Harold]

The first might be reasonable, sort of, apart from the fact that she herself is (or should be, at least) a far better witness.
As for the second: what proof can she offer, much stronger than her own personal knowledge that Morgase was killed days by Rahvin (posing as Gaebril) before Rand went to avenge her?

Suppose that you had personal knowledge that someone accused of murder had been hundreds of miles away from the scene of the crime at the time it took place. Would you then withhold that evidence in order to seek better, or would you consider this good enough to offer as a (near) perfect alibi?

Assuming that Egwene believes Morgase is dead, then what better evidence could she possibly hope to find?
Would you assert the person had been hundreds of miles away -- and be secure that you were speaking a word that was not true -- if you also had direct personal knowledge that the person could go anywhere in the world and be back before you noticed he'd left the room?

The knowledge that Rand can Travel is no secret and the assertion of a novice to a king that he was hundreds of miles away wouldn't carry much weight -- that's just a political reality and Egwenen is astute enough to recognise that Elayne's opinion is worth more than hers in this instance.

[Yuri33]

Terez just mentioned it more as a joke than anything else.

What part of the following statement was given in jest?

Yes you do. Pretty much anything negative about Egwene qualifies, because anything beyond "she's annoying sometimes" is extreme. But it basically comes down to the suggestion that Egwene thinks that the interests of the Tower are more important than the interests of the world, or that she doesn't appreciate Rand. It seems to me that a little misogyny is required to actually believe that crap.

Word to the wise: they aren't. It's all a matter of perspective.

This is one of the most ill-informed statements I've read in a while.

[Nazbaque]

Makes you wonder why she starts an opinion poll in the first place when she can't accept that other ppl have their own oppinions which might be different from hers.

[Uno]

There's nothing misogynistic about the desire for Egwene to become one of Rand's "trusted lieutenants." That's the way I feel about everyone in the series, men and women alike.

But I do agree most of the accusations here are too extreme. That doesn't mean there are some that aren't.

The real politicos (like Egwene) will by now have started considering how they should position themselves for a post-Dragon world, and that requires some pretty difficult calculations, as there are many unknowns. In particular, what will be the ultimate legacy of the Dragon Reborn? Will it be a great political asset to have been his steadfast supporter? Can you build future power and prestige on having supported the Dragon through thick and thin, or will the Dragon ultimately be a cursed name you don't really want to be associated with?

So, do you gamble on the Dragon being the great hero of the age, so that when he's gone you can claim part of his legacy? Or do you remain somewhat detached from his cause, so that if he's blamed for almost destroying the world, you don't suffer from guilt by association?

Petty considerations, perhaps, with the Last Battle looming, but politics is nothing if not petty.

[Terez]

I'm sorry, but that is stupid. Yes, every human has flaws, but there are different degrees of flaws. Not everyone has the same degree! By your logic there, Egwene and Rand's human flaws are on the same level as Semi's, or Moridin. So yes, I can say Egwene's are worse.
That's some pretty screwed-up logic, Spammer. Egwene and Rand are good guys. Of course their flaws aren't anything like the bad guys'. That doesn't mean you can say Egwene's flaws are worse than Rand's.

And Uno, I don't see any of that going on at all. Care to provide a quote that shows Egwene is doing what you're suggesting?

[Uno]

And Uno, I don't see any of that going on at all. Care to provide a quote that shows Egwene is doing what you're suggesting?

No, but it makes sense. That's what I would do. To succeed in politics, you've got to think ahead, and a major consideration at the time will be what's actually going to happen to the Dragon. Will he die a glorious death as a great hero? If that's the case, there's nothing but benefit in having supported him, as you can claim part of the glory, and he's at any rate gone. As of yet, he has no heir, and you're free to do what you like once he's exited the scene. On the other hand, he might triumph and hang on for 50 or more years, and that's a pretty damn difficult situation for you, if you've completely pledged allegiance to him, as you've essentially lost your independence for the forseeable future. Alternately, he may do so much harm (or be blamed for doing so much harm) that you don't want to be associated with him.

The Dragon is the major political center of gravity in Randland at the moment, and all skilled politicans must consider how stable that center of gravity really is.

[Terez]

Yeah, I understand that it makes sense...but from Egwene's actions and thoughts, I don't think she often considers that Rand will not succeed (it's one of those things you just don't think about), and she's never tried to disassociate herself from him - quite the opposite.

But at the same time, I do think Egwene's reasons for not groveling for Rand should have been obvious to everyone all along - regardless of whether or not he survives, Egwene has a responsibility to uphold the dignity of the Tower. She also has a responsibility to lead the Tower in the Last Battle, and she's done nothing to shirk that responsibility - she's in fact doing everything she can to prepare the Tower for the Last Battle.

[Uno]

Yeah, I understand that it makes sense...but from Egwene's actions and thoughts, I don't think she often considers that Rand will not succeed (it's one of those things you just don't think about), and she's never tried to disassociate herself from him - quite the opposite.

I'm sure she's given some thought for the future. Her actions show that. She wants to preserve her political independence, and the independence of the White Tower. In political terms, Rand's a pretty big threat. He tends to demand that all rulers rally to his banner, but if they do that, they risk becoming nothing more than his satelites. They're hardly callous people for wishing to preserve their own freedom of action as much as they can.

This might not matter much if the DO wins, but you've got to consider the post-Tamon Gai'don order. If you've got the strength to do so, it might be far better to lead your own banners to fight alongside the Dragon in the Last Battle, than to fight under his banner as one of his subordinates. That way, you may come out of the struggle with your independence intact, while if you fight for him, you depend on his gratitude, and that's the most short-lived political currency of all.

Berelain expressed herself in similar terms on one occasion, as I recall, worrying what would happen to her little country if Rand needed the support of the grasping High Lords of Tear. Her power base is too small to support an independent course of action, so her best bet is to support Rand and hope that leaves her coming out on top. Egwene's got greater resources, and will be able to negotiate her own terms of alliance.

To summarize, I'm proposing a set of reasons for why it's a completely reasonable and political savvy course of action for a ruler not unconditionally to cast his or her lot completely with the Dragon Reborn.

[Nazbaque]

Now that I've had time to calm down I'd like to apologize to WH: I'm sorry if something I've said insulted you. At the time I was angry and practically lashing at anything that moved. I'm not making excuses I just feel that I owe you an explanation along with the apology. I hope there is no bad blood over this.

[irerancincpkc]

That's some pretty screwed-up logic, Spammer. Egwene and Rand are good guys. Of course their flaws aren't anything like the bad guys'. That doesn't mean you can say Egwene's flaws are worse than Rand's.

Okay, so you don't believe that any other 'good' guy in WOT has worse flaws than Egwene?

This is, at least a matter of opinion. I think Egwene's flaws are worse than Rand's, but it is illogical to suggest that all the good guys flaws are all equal, and all the bad guys flaws are similary equal.

[Weird Harold]

Now that I've had time to calm down I'd like to apologize to WH: I'm sorry if something I've said insulted you. At the time I was angry and practically lashing at anything that moved. I'm not making excuses I just feel that I owe you an explanation along with the apology. I hope there is no bad blood over this.
No apology necessary. I wasn't offended.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Would you assert the person had been hundreds of miles away -- and be secure that you were speaking a word that was not true -- if you also had direct personal knowledge that the person could go anywhere in the world and be back before you noticed he'd left the room?

The knowledge that Rand can Travel is no secret and the assertion of a novice to a king that he was hundreds of miles away wouldn't carry much weight -- that's just a political reality and Egwenen is astute enough to recognise that Elayne's opinion is worth more than hers in this instance.
Yet she is not astute enough to recognise that in this one special case, it is absolute bonkers. Unless of course Egwene is convinced that Rand has totally lost it, and was irretrievably mad while Moiraine was still checking his health every ten minutes.

Let's consider the scenario that you're suggesting, to make sure that I have it all right.
Rand is in Cairhien, Rahvin is in Caemlyn. Rahvin has Morgase firmly under his control, so as to keep hold of Andor.
Rand sneaks off to Caemlyn. There, without triggering a fight with Rahvin, he kills Morgase and leaves again.
Rahvin for some inscrutable reason of his own decides not to use this splendid opportunity, and keeps the fact that the Dragon Reborn murdered the queen of Andor a secret. Instead he comes up with the "she wants me to rule" cover story.
A couple of days later, this story reaches Cairhien, where Mat hears it. He goes to inform Rand.
When Rand hears of Morgase's supposed death, he gets very angry, apparently thinking that Rahvin did it. Egwene hears this, just as she heard Mat's report.
Rand wants to hare off immediately, but Moiraine and Egwene convince him to wait until the next day, and to take back up.
When Rand arrives in Caemlyn, it is immediately clear that any arrival of a man channeling anywhere in the city is detected by Rahvin. This alarm system was put into place after Morgase's murder, if it had been there before then Rand couldn't have done it.

Is that about it?
Then there are a couple of questions with this scenario:
1. If Egwene is so convinced that Rand randomly murders people, why doesn't she show any other signs of worry about that? She seems to fear that he may eventually get that mad, but not that he is there already.
2. Why hadn't Rahvin prepared any warning systems and defenses, before Rand sneaked in and wacked the queen?
3. Why did Rahvin come up with a lie, when the truth would have served him better, as far as we can see?

If you want to, you can try to come up with another scenario. But no matter what, it requires very strange actions and inactions by Rahvin.
And simply telling the truth as she knows it would not violate the Three Oaths, so Egwene could have told what she herself had witnessed, and what she had heard from others about the attack on Caemlyn.

[Weird Harold]

If you want to, you can try to come up with another scenario. But no matter what, it requires very strange actions and inactions by Rahvin.
And simply telling the truth as she knows it would not violate the Three Oaths, ..

You're ignoring who she was talking to in the quoted example: Matin Stephenaous, rightful King of a country where Rand is now recognised as the Ruler.

He doesn't know or believe that "Lord Gaebril" was one of the Forsaken in disguise and the sequence of events you described would fit perfectly with the rumors and misinformation he spouted to prompt Egwene to speak up.

Telling the "Truth As She knows It" would not carry a great deal of weight at the time of the encounter -- the KIng doesn't know her from Eve, but he does know enough about AS to recgnise that a novice is not bound by the Three Oaths anyway.

Egwene Al'Vere, Novice AS means ntohing to Matin, but Elayne Trakand, Daughter-heir of Andor (and presumptive current ruler of Andor as far as he knows) is name and an person he's familiar with and has to deal with.

Egwene is astute enough to phrase her response to Matin in terms and referents that HE would take note of, and not rely on him being able to recognise "Truth" that came from a commoner.

[Ozymandias]

They're hardly callous people for wishing to preserve their own freedom of action as much as they can.

If you've got the strength to do so, it might be far better to lead your own banners to fight alongside the Dragon in the Last Battle, than to fight under his banner as one of his subordinates. That way, you may come out of the struggle with your independence intact, while if you fight for him, you depend on his gratitude, and that's the most short-lived political currency of all.

To summarize, I'm proposing a set of reasons for why it's a completely reasonable and political savvy course of action for a ruler not unconditionally to cast his or her lot completely with the Dragon Reborn.

All of which ignore the crucial point that they all suffer a fate worse than death if Rand loses. Lets be frank; Egwene's reluctance to fully support Rand is hurting his cause. If she swung behind him unconditionally, it would make him that much more powerful and legitimate. He would have to spend less time quelling small insurrections and be able to truly pursue the aims he needs to to prepare for Tarmon Gai'don.

In a normal political environment, I'd agree with you, Uno. But in this case, Egwene refusing to be cooperative means she's sealing her own death warrant as well. Her basic premise is thus; "I'd rather weaken Rand and preserve the full power of the White Tower, and accept that it increases the chances of every living person being eaten or subjected to unspeakable cruelties, rather than give up a few prerogatives of Aes Sedai in order to further the cause of humanity at large".

This is a direct contradiction of purpose. Aes Sedai are "Servants of All", but right now they are unquestionably serving no one but themselves. Egwene, like every other female character, thinks she knows best what Rand should do. She says so on multiple occasions. Never mind that its possible Rand may know best, being the Dragon Reborn and all... Egwene is too much of a bitch to see anything she doesn't want to.

The second she put the influence of the Tower; not its existence, mind you, merely its position as hegemon of Randland, as her primary goal and NOT the saving of mankind in the Last Battle, she became a bad guy (or girl). The means do not always support the ends, and Egwene has become a bad guy because she actively works against Rand.

[Uno]

Egwene's reluctance to fully support Rand is hurting his cause. If she swung behind him unconditionally, it would make him that much more powerful and legitimate.

Consider Egwene's position within the White Tower as a polity. Her legitimacy as Amyrlin is questionable. The Salidar faction have little choice but to support her for the time being, but once the Tower is reunited, a number of them may reconsider that support, and the Aes Sedai that formerly recognized Elaida may be disinclined to accept her under any circumstances. I'm sure Egwene will remember that during her brief career as a member of the White Tower, one Amyrlin has been deposed, and she's actively working to pull down another.

Egwene needs to reunite the Tower under her leadership, and she therefore has to appear as a strong leader championing the interests of Tar Valon. She can ill afford to be seen as a person inclined surrender even part of the independence of the Tower to the Dragon Reborn, a male channeler. The Aes Sedai will know that Egwene grew up with Rand, and that she was for some time part of his retinue. For that reason, she is perhaps automatically suspect if she even seems to yield to his demands.

Another rebellion within the White Tower will hardly work to the benefit of Rand's cause, especially if Egwene becomes the third Amyrlin deposed within a few years and is replaced by someone who's outright hostile to the Dragon Reborn.

[Ozymandias]

Uno, you bring up an excellent point. However, I once again need to point out that this isn't a case of trying to maintain her own position.

Its perfectly reasonable for Egwene to want to maintain her status as Amyrlin because she can support Rand. However, there is a ling she can walk in which she cautiously or not so cautiously supports him and maintains independence. You can make the case that her support of Rand is the reason she was raised to the Amyrlin Seat, and that her supporting him would in no way endanger her position, as thats what she was Raised to do.

It also isn't an issue of her being the Amyrlin Seat; if it were, it might be more excusable, but even when she was not in the position you desribe, Uno, she still put the interests and influence of the Tower above the interests of mankind. When Rand wanted to contact the Salidar Aes Sedai, Egwene refused to tell him; not because she thought they'd fight him or be harmful to his cause, but because she felt that protecting an Aes Sedai secret was more important than helping Rand. If it were not for that, I would be more inclined to ascribe her actions as Amyrlin as long term planning meant to unite the Aes Sedai and THEN swing behind Rand, but her actions when she was on her own prove that such a noble or praiseworthy end isn't her goal; she just wants power and prestige for the Tower, and damn the consequences of not acting in concert with mankind's savior.

[Nazbaque]

Egwene was raised Amyrlin because she was strong in the Power and "easy to controll"

Before she can lead Aes Sedai anywhere she has to unite the Tower. Openly supporting Rand before that would be a bad move.

The point is that she doesn't even think in the lines of "I must rally the Aes Sedai to Rands banner"

But we can evaluate her plans better when the Tower IS hers to lead.

The reason I don't like her is her attitude towards other ppl.

As an example: She knows Rand killed Rahvin, she knows he killed Sammael, she knows he killed Ishamael, she knows he killed Aginor and does she show or feel respect over it? No

[Weird Harold]

Egwene was raised Amyrlin because she was strong in the Power and "easy to controll"

Before she can lead Aes Sedai anywhere she has to unite the Tower. Openly supporting Rand before that would be a bad move.

"Openly" supporting Rand is what got Siuan Deposed and stilled.

Another element of the choice to raise Egwene was her connection/knowledge of Rand.

She has long realized that Rand' involvement in the Tower Split -- either in retaliation for Dumai's Wells or supporting either faction would make the split permanent and irreparable. That's why she wouldn't give him the location of Salidar and why she isn't campaigning for rallying to Rand's Banner before or after the Tower is reunited.

If either Rand is seen as a puppet of the WT (as Elaida wants) or the White Tower is seen as a tool of Rand's the alliances Rand needs to succeed aren't going to happen.

Keeping "Tower Business" separate from "Rand's interests" is the single best move Egwene could make. She has been prevented from contacting him under one of the few restrictions placed on an Amyrlin -- dinner's done, so I dont' have time to look up the reference on that because I know you won't accept it without one.

[Yuri33]

We can all pretend Rand is at the source of the Tower split, or that he's at the source for the continuing split, but that would be disingenuous. Elaida is the why there is a split, and why one continues to exist. It takes a character as arrogant, ambitious, narrow-minded, and yet influential as Elaida to make something like that happen.

You can argue politics and perception all you want, Elaida is the real issue.

[Nazbaque]

Oh Elaida is a mere catalyst that speeds things up. Siuan was brought down because she supported Rand. Some sisters didn't agree with that. From there on it was ajah against ajah and sister against sister. Elaida and Alviarin kept the whole thing going further and further but the key was Rand.

[Weird Harold]

We can all pretend Rand is at the source of the Tower split, or that he's at the source for the continuing split, but that would be disingenuous. Elaida is the why there is a split, and why one continues to exist.

Rand was the catalyst that gave Elaida an opening and Alviarin is the reason she succeeded -- which suggests a good bit of BA involvement in manipulating the attendance in the hall for the deposing vote and raising of Elaida, if nothing else.

Rand is NOT what is keeping the tower split and I"m pretty sure I never said he was. What I said is that if he weighed in on either side, it would guarantee a permanent split because it would be seen as him interfering in tower business and/or the side he supported as selling out the tower and giving it over to a man who can channel (DR or not.)

As long as Rand stays out of the Tower split, it's Elaida's bag to hold. If he gets involved at all, it becomes HIS bag and what it's filled with doesn't smell good.

Keeping "Tower Business" separate from "Rand's interests" is the single best move Egwene could make. She has been prevented from contacting him under one of the few restrictions placed on an Amyrlin ...


Only one Tower law specifically limited the power of the Amyrlin Seat. A fistful of irritating customs and a barrel full of inconvenient realities, but only one law, yet it could not have been a worse for her purposes. "The Amyrlin Seat being valued with the White Tower itself, as the very heart of the White Tower, she must not be endangered without dire necessity, therefore unless the White Tower be at war by declaration of the Hall of the Tower, the Amyrlin Seat shall seek the lesser consensus of the Hall of the Tower before deliberately placing herself in the way of any danger, and she shall abide by the consensus that stands." What rash incident by an Amyrlin had inspired that, Egwene did not know, but it had been law for something over two thousand years. To most Aes Sedai, any law that old attained an aura of holiness; changing it was unthinkable.

Romanda had quoted that... that bloodylaw as though lecturing a half-wit. If the Daughter-Heir of Andor could not be allowed within a hundred miles of the Dragon Reborn, how much more they must preserve the Amyrlin Seat. Lelaine sounded almost regretful, most likely because she was agreeing with Romanda. That had nearly curdled both their tongues. Without them, both of them, the lesser consensus lay as far out of reach as the greater. Light, even that declaration of war only required the lesser consensus! So if she could not obtain permission...

Leane cleared her throat. "You can hardly do much if you go in secret, Mother, and the Hall will find out, soon or late. I think you would find it difficult to have an hour to yourself after that. Not that they'd dare put a guard on you, precisely, but there are ways. I can quote examples from... certain sources." She never mentioned the hidden records directly unless they were behind a ward.

"Am I so transparent?" Egwene asked after a moment. There were only wagons around them here, and beneath the wagons the dark mounds of sleeping wagon drivers and horse handlers and all the rest needed to keep so many vehicles moving. It was remarkable just how many conveyances over three hundred Aes Sedai required, when few would condescend to ride even a mile in wagon or cart. But there were tents and furnishings and foodstuffs, and a thousand things needed to keep the sisters and those who served them. The loudest sounds here were snores, a chorus of frogs.

"No, Mother," Leane laughed softly. "I just thought what I would do. But it's well known I've lost all my dignity and sense; the Amyrlin Seat can hardly take me for a model. I think you must let young Master al'Thor go as he will, for a time anyway, while you pluck the goose that's in front of you."

"His way may lead us all to the Pit of Doom," Egwene muttered, but it was not an argument. There had to be a way to pluck that goose and still keep Rand from making dangerous mistakes, but she could not see it now. Not frogs; those snores sounded like a hundred saws cutting logs full of knots. "This is as bad a spot for a soothing walk as I've ever visited. I think I might as well go to bed."

Egwene may still think of Rand as a hick sheepherder wh is in over his head and drunk with power -- which actually isn't a bad description of him at this point in the story -- but she desperately wants to go talk to him face to face and has been consistently and repeatedly frustrated by the law restricting an Amyrlin Seat form putting herself in danger.

A lot of the complaints about Egwene disregard the "A fistful of irritating customs and a barrel full of inconvenient realities" that hem her in. Even the Declaration of War against Elaida doesn't do away with those "irritating customs and inconvenient realities."

[Yuri33]

Rand was the catalyst that gave Elaida an opening and Alviarin is the reason she succeeded

Rand was the excuse. If Rand were not part of the equation, Elaida and\or the BA would find some other reason to take down Siuan, and inevitably drive a rift through the WT.

The most apt analogy might be a promise by a certain high-ranking official of finding WMD's in a certain region of the world :)

What I said is that if he weighed in on either side, it would guarantee a permanent split because it would be seen as him interfering in tower business and/or the side he supported as selling out the tower and giving it over to a man who can channel (DR or not.)

As long as Rand stays out of the Tower split, it's Elaida's bag to hold. If he gets involved at all, it becomes HIS bag and what it's filled with doesn't smell good.

Rand has already weighed in with his proposition for bonding AM. He specifically meant to ally with Egwene:

KoD, Call to a Sitting:
The boy strode to the center of the pavilion staring at the bench where the Amyrlin’s stole lay, then turned about slowly, running his gaze over the Sitters with an air of challenge. It came to Romanda that he was unafraid, too. An Aes Sedai held his bond, he was alone and surrounded by sisters, yet if there was a scrap of fear in him, he had it under complete control. “Where is Egwene al’Vere?” he demanded. “I was ordered to lay the offer before her.”

but she desperately wants to go talk to him face to face and has been consistently and repeatedly frustrated by the law restricting an Amyrlin Seat form putting herself in danger.

A lot of the complaints about Egwene disregard the "A fistful of irritating customs and a barrel full of inconvenient realities" that hem her in. Even the Declaration of War against Elaida doesn't do away with those "irritating customs and inconvenient realities."

For someone whom you claim upholds the law so faithfully, she certainly possesses some selective memory:

KoD, Honey in the Tea:
“Mutinies?” Bennae said incredulously. “Six of them? Exiled and smothered?”
“It’s all recorded in the secret histories, in the Thirteenth Depository. Though I suppose I shouldn’t have told you that.” Egwene took a sip of tea and grimaced. It was all but rancid. No wonder Bennae had not touched hers.
“Secret histories? A thirteenth Depository? If such a thing existed, and I think I would know, why should you not have told me?”
“Because by law the existence of the secret histories as well as their contents can be known only to the Amyrlin, the Keeper, and the Sitters. Them and the librarians who keep the records, anyway. Even the law itself is part of the Thirteenth Depository, so I guess I shouldn’t have told that either. But if you can gain access somehow, or ask someone who knows and will tell you, you’ll find out I’m right. Six times in the history of the Tower, when the Amyrlin was dangerously divisive or dangerously incompetent and the Hall failed to act. sisters have risen up to remove her.” There. She could not have planted the seed deeper with a shovel. Or driven it home more bluntly with a hammer.

Ends justifies the means...

[Ozymandias]

a hick sheepherder wh is in over his head and drunk with power -- which actually isn't a bad description of him at this point in the story -- but she desperately wants to go talk to him face to face and has been consistently and repeatedly frustrated by the law restricting an Amyrlin Seat form putting herself in danger.

A lot of the complaints about Egwene disregard the "A fistful of irritating customs and a barrel full of inconvenient realities" that hem her in. Even the Declaration of War against Elaida doesn't do away with those "irritating customs and inconvenient realities."

Firstly, thats unfair towards Rand. He has a very limited time to gain a great deal of power without a great deal of trust. The conditions imposed on him BY AES SEDAI through millenia of conditioning a fearful populace has destroyed any credibility he has save power, and he has no time to use anything other than force to achieve his aims.

In fact, thus far he's performed admirably. Lets remember that since Moiraine left he's had no counsellor to help him out; he is singlehandedly juggling just about every faction in every country (and transnational groups), and doing it effectively enough that he is not only having time to limit the rebellions that do break out, but also conquer new lands. Egwene has the advantage of having every move double and triple checked by Siuan; we only hear references to her influence and no direct suggestions, really, but it is strongly implied that a great deal of this current plan originated with Siuan. Rand doesn't have a safety net like that. And Egwene has what? A few hundred sisters to deal with, not uncounted millions to feed and support and marshal into a force capable of facing down the Dark One.

For every custom Egwene is hemmed in by, there are a million factors inhibiting Rand. Think of all the hardship Rand has had to face compared to Egwene! Egwene has had to deal with what? The difficulty of learning about Dreaming, under the tutelage of 4 experts? Or how to control a bunch of frightened women, who do most of the day to day work themselves?

Rand has been put in a box and beaten. He has seen friends die. He's been accused of terrible things that clearly hurt him. And through it all he has to deal with the constant annoyances of feuding nobles and recalcitrant rulers, not to mention Egwene's unwillingness to hep him.

What bothers me most is that Egwene consistently is a hypocrite. When Rand keeps his secrets, he's an idiot who won't accept help, despite the obvious fact that she's spying on him on behalf of the Tower (or rebels). When he asks her a question, she gets all huffy about Aes Sedai secrets and refuses him the information that could help him. I can't stress that point enough; her current position as Amyrlin MIGHT excuse her motives of keeping the Tower whole, but even when she's a nobody with no influence, she STILL keeps the Tower secrets which might help Rand.

You may have gathered I can't stand Egwene. She clearly isn't necessary for the Last Battle... I hoped she drowned while assaulting the harbor chains. Can't have everything, I guess.

[Nazbaque]

Rand has Min, Nyn, Cads and others at his disposal if he chose to ask. One of Rands faults is his do everything yourself attitude. It's understandable, he is the DR and no one else can lead the whole bloody army of the Light much less fight the DO one on one. But he is taking it too far trying to take care of every single detail himself.

[GonzoTheGreat]

You're ignoring who she was talking to in the quoted example: Matin Stephenaous, rightful King of a country where Rand is now recognised as the Ruler.
And you are ignoring that Matin is not the only person on whom she has used this same "I can't prove it, but I will try to find evidence" line. She also used that on Gawyn. All indications are that he would have been willing to accept her word, yet then too she chose not to reveal her knowledge but to keep it secret. As a result, Gawyn is still convinced that Rand murdered his mother, and has on a occasionan been tempted to kill the DR.

Matin might not have trusted her, but then again, he might have. If she had simply told what she knew, he would have had far more reason to trust her than when she's merely making nebulous "trust me, he didn't do it" statements.
Before she can lead Aes Sedai anywhere she has to unite the Tower. Openly supporting Rand before that would be a bad move.
Assuming, of course, that the DO is nice enough to politely wait until his enemies have worked out all of their own internal troubles. However, if he starts Tarmon Gai'don before the Tower quarrel is solved, then what will Egwene have gained from not supporting Rand to her utmost? She will have achieved a situation where no faction of the Tower at all has served the Light, and the only AS who fight on the side of the DR are those that ignore all pretenders to the Amyrlin Seat.

Your argument might have some merit if Egwene was sure she could afford to unite the whole Tower before openly allying herself with Rand. Since she can not be certain she has that much time (or any time at all, for that matter), waiting does not seem such a good idea.

[Nazbaque]

Assuming, of course, that the DO is nice enough to politely wait until his enemies have worked out all of their own internal troubles. However, if he starts Tarmon Gai'don before the Tower quarrel is solved, then what will Egwene have gained from not supporting Rand to her utmost? She will have achieved a situation where no faction of the Tower at all has served the Light, and the only AS who fight on the side of the DR are those that ignore all pretenders to the Amyrlin Seat.
Now Gonzo that is not fair. Haste makes waste and it could result in more harm than good. And just because Egwene might not have enough time to unite the Tower doesn't mean she shouldn't try. And frankly it wouldn't fit the stubborn side of her character not to try even if she knew for certain that she doesn't have time for it.

However your argument applies to Gawyn and in my book that is bigger than Mattin Stepaneos however you twist that one.

[Ozymandias]

Rand has Min, Nyn, Cads and others at his disposal if he chose to ask. One of Rands faults is his do everything yourself attitude. It's understandable, he is the DR and no one else can lead the whole bloody army of the Light much less fight the DO one on one. But he is taking it too far trying to take care of every single detail himself.

Thats not true at all. He DOES take Min's advice, first and foremost, so that point is moot. And as for Nynaeve... precisely what advice is she going to offer? I mean, objectively, she's generally wrong about most things as it is, but even if that weren't the case, she knows nothing about international politics and has no tact; all in all, not an advisor Rand particularly needs.

Cadsuane is a different story. Of course, she's treated him (with some reason) like a child that needs to be spanked, but she also undermines him, if for a noble cause, in front of people he needs. Once again... his advisor is working against him.

My point was that Rand doesn't have a prior Dragon or Dragon Reborn to advise him; well, he does, but he's completely insane. Egwene has the advantage of having a former Amyrlin, a very skilled one, as her advisor. Given that most of the plans currently in motion are impossible without Siuan's help, I'd say she's getting a lot more support from her advisors.

And remember, by KoD, Egwene has the unconditional support of all non-Black Ajah Aes Sedai she controls. Even Romanda and Lelaine, for all their jockeying to be the next Amyrlin, still support Egwene and wish to see her safe. Rand deals with problems everywhere he goes.

No matter. You can't escape the simple fact that Egwene puts the good of the Tower over that of Rand. When she's in the Tower as a captive, you don't hear her saying "oh, and we need to support the Dragon Reborn" in addition to trying to bring down Elaida. That certainly wouldn't hurt her cause, now would it? It wouldn't even have to be that direct. No, all she cares about is making sure the Tower, and therefore her, has as much power as possible.

In LoC, she spies (or tries to) on Rand's dreams; not to help him, of course, but to see if she can learn anything useful to pass along to the Aes Sedai.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Nazbaque, what would Mattin trust more: the word of an Amyrlin Seat on what she has seen and heard herself, or the word of an Accepted (novice, whatever) on what a Daughter Heir who is far away is supposed to believe?
I would say: if he doesn't trust her on what she heard, then he wouldn't trust her on what she has heard about Elayne either.

As for the "haste makes waste", that's what was prophecied, after all. The DR will break the world again. At best, trying to avoid that won't help, at worst it will make him fail at his goal of defeating the DO.

But this does remind me of another anit-Egwene peeve: the fact that she hasn't bothered informing him that another of the Seals is broken. She knows that. She knows that the more of them break, the closer TG is. Yet she doesn't seem to consider it necessary to inform Rand of that.

[Weird Harold]

Firstly, thats unfair towards Rand.

It just might be "unfair" but then life isn't fair and Rand at that point in the story was seen as "a hick sheepherder who is in over his head and drunk with power" by more than Egwene.

Looking at the way RJ wrote Rand at that point in the story without blinders doesn't mean that I hate Rand or am being "unfair" -- if anyone was being "unfair" to Rand at that point in the story it was RJ. :rolleyes:

Assuming, of course, that the DO is nice enough to politely wait until his enemies have worked out all of their own internal troubles. However, if he starts Tarmon Gai'don ...

The DO doesn't control the timing of T'G any more than Rand, Egwene, or Hurin do. The Wheel must control the Timing, else it couldn't be Foretold or Prophesied.

[Ozymandias]

It just might be "unfair" but then life isn't fair and Rand at that point in the story was seen as "a hick sheepherder who is in over his head and drunk with power" by more than Egwene.



I don't know about that. By KoD Rand is perceived as arrogant and drunk on power, and with good reason, but he isn't a hick sheepherder and one of my main complaints against Egwene is that she refuses to consider him in any other light, despite the fact that he has gone way beyond that point. Its why Egwene is such an annoying character. She is used to being the dominant and confident one in their relationship, and refuses to admit in any way that the tables may have turned.

Has no one else noticed that? Egwene and Nynaeve have refused to leave their Emond's Field mentality. They still view Rand, Mat, and Perrin as the same wet behind the ears kids that they knew a few years back, when that totally isn't the case. In most ways, I'd say the male characters have come a lot further in terms of emotional and moral development than Egwene and Nynaeve have.

Aside from those two, which intelligent character in these books treats Rand like a shepherd? And besides Min... since thats clearly a term of endearment for her.

[Weird Harold]

Aside from those two, which intelligent character in these books treats Rand like a shepherd?

You're missing the point -- Egwene thinks of Rand as Hick Shepherd. Nyneave has been around him for more of the changes, but still thinks of him as her responsibility to some extent.

Weiramon considers him a jumped up commoner or country-lord bumpkin -- equavalents in wieramons' world view.

It's about first imressions and preconceptions.

Elaida still thinks Rand will be easy to manipulate/control because he's young, male, and unsophisticated.

The term "Hick Sheepherder" is a generic application of Egwene's first impression.

A couple of examples from real-life:

The inventer of the pellet stove played linbacker behind my right defensive tackle in high-school. He's rich, relatively famous, and influential, but since I haven't been around him for 40 years, he's still the slightly goofy, half-hearted student who played linbacker behind me.

The Drummer for Mason Williams Band (at the time he recorded Classical Gas) was my doubles partner three of four years on the high-school tennis team. He's not particularly famous or rock-star-rich, but whatever Geroges has been up to, I still think of him as the dink-shot specialist who was always poaching at the net.

Egwene is in somewhat the same situation I am with my high-school classmates -- she knows sort of what happened after she left, but no amount of second-hand information is going to change the impressions of Rand she held/formed before she left Cairhein for Salidar.

That to me makes her a realisitc and believable character -- who like Rand is coping the best she can with a situations she's illl-trained for.

[Ozymandias]

Right, but look at who Egwene is being compared to; Weiramon, an idiot, and Elaida, a character so stubborn and blind she's about a step away from being a Darkfriend.

Listen, Egwene saw Rand go from shepherd to Dragon Reborn (she was there til after Cairhein and Caemlyn). She saw him as the most powerful ruler in the world. And STILL thought of him as a backwards shepherd. She refuses to give him credit at ANY point. When Moiraine is trying to guide him, Rand is obviously being a fool for not doing what she says. *Mind you, there are examples of times when Moiraine all but assaults him (with Healing, but still unasked for) that even Lan is disapproving of... and yet Egwene refuses to think that Rand might have a right to personal privacy that an Aes Sedai cannot tread over.

In many ways, how is Egwene so different from Elaida? They both are convinced their way is the ONLY way to approach Rand. They're both stubborn enough to not listen to anyone else's suggestions about it, much less enquire whether or not Rand might have some input. They both think they know how to save the White Tower. Just because we know that Egwene happens to be right in most cases doesn't make her character any less deplorable.

Or how about this. Especially in tSR and FoH, we see Egwene continuously bitch about how easy Rand has it and how he doesn't have to take orders from anyone. Mind you, there must be half a dozen attempts on his life during this time period, but does that assuage her? Not at all, she still moans and groans about how lucky he is.

I'll repeat, she doesn't care about anyone except herself. She is the very image of a selfish, egomaniacal idiot, as much as Rand is. She always knows what's right and refuses to see past her problems, or step into someone else's shoes, unless she wants to. Every POV we have from her involves her complaining about something, be it minor or important. Thats not the case with other characters; they don't come off as whiney the way she is. Whether she's upset about Siuan being distracted by Gareth, or about how she can't ride Bela anymore, a complaint is never far from her lips or thoughts. And its not a complaint like "Jeez, I can't believe Weiramon is being an idiot and throwing off all my plans." No, its something selfish and petty.

[The Immortal One]

I've never questioned her dedication, only her methods.
This statement from Yuri is the best way of putting my feelings for her.


On the other hand, he might triumph and hang on for 50 or more years,
Someone, WH I think, said this - but according to channeller lifetimes Rand will likely have another 5 or 6 hundred years.


Egwene has a responsibility to uphold the dignity of the Tower.
You have a point with this, but it becomes annoying when she puts it above other - more important - things.


Oh Elaida is a mere catalyst that speeds things up. Siuan was brought down because she supported Rand. Some sisters didn't agree with that. From there on it was ajah against ajah and sister against sister. Elaida and Alviarin kept the whole thing going further and further but the key was Rand.
That's hardly Rand's fault except by Ta'veren-ness, Elaida only knew of him as a male channeller, a powerful Ta'veren, and a potential danger and causer of chaos - though she should have realised that Siuan, as the Amyrlin Seat, wouldn't leave just any male channeller free and ungentled. - and this too:

Rand was the catalyst that gave Elaida an opening and Alviarin is the reason she succeeded -- which suggests a good bit of BA involvement in manipulating the attendance in the hall for the deposing vote and raising of Elaida, if nothing else.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Oh Elaida is a mere catalyst that speeds things up. Siuan was brought down because she supported Rand. Some sisters didn't agree with that. From there on it was ajah against ajah and sister against sister. Elaida and Alviarin kept the whole thing going further and further but the key was Rand.
That's hardly Rand's fault except by Ta'veren-ness, Elaida only knew of him as a male channeller, a powerful Ta'veren, and a potential danger and causer of chaos - though she should have realised that Siuan, as the Amyrlin Seat, wouldn't leave just any male channeller free and ungentled.
Nitpick: at the time of Siuan's downfall, the whole Tower knew already that Rand was the Dragon Reborn.
So those AS who objected to that apparently thought that Rand should not be allowed to do what he was prophecied to do: fight the DO.

The Aiel Wise Ones have an irritating habit of entirely dismissing the KC as "Wetlander business". But at least they recognise that they shouldn't work against Rand, that they should not try to prevent him from doing what needs to be done.
Very few AS have the wisdom to accept that Rand is not an ordinary man who should defer to their authority. Verin seems to have figured that out from the moment she saw him. Moiraine came to understand it, though it took her a while. She convinced Siuan of it, more or less. Cadsuane seems to know it too, though she is good at pretending she doesn't understand. Alanna has figured it out, partially helped by Verin and partially tought by Rand. Nynaeve realised it even before she became AS. Elayne; well, I'm not quite sure about her, but she definitely does not try to make him defer to her when they're together, she is too busy then with making him do other things.

[Yuri33]

Rand was not the primary cause of the split, whether it was generally known he was the Dragon Reborn or not. Under normal circumstances, what Siuan did would be called questionable, but not impeachable. Perhaps there was some ta'vereness that allowed for the conditions to be just right, but that's a very dubious connection.

Remember, Elaida had to stretch the rules to their very limit (only a minimum number of Sitters present, only those she could intimidate\rely on being informed of the Hall sitting, etc.). And even then it would not have been enough. She needed Alvairin's help, the BA's help, to pull it off, and only barely so.

Siuan was deposed because Elaida (and the BA, for different reasons) wanted to bring her down so she could be Amyrilin herself. If she couldn't use Rand in her trumped up charges, she would have found something else. Similarly, Elaida (and the BA, again for different reasons) is the reason the WT remains split.

Egwene is working to mend the WT, but remember her only condition: Elaida is removed. Everything else is on the table:

CoT, The Subject of Negotiations:
Egwene ignored the shouts and arm-waving. She had consid*ered every possibility she could think of for ending this struggle with the White Tower whole and united. She had talked for hours with Siuan, who had more reason than anyone to want to unseat Elaida. If it could have saved the Tower, Egwene would have sur*rendered to Elaida, forget whether the woman had come to the Amyrlin Seat legally. Siuan had nearly had apoplexy at the sugges*tion, yet she had agreed, reluctantly, that preserving the Tower superseded every other consideration. Beonin wore such a beautiful smile, it seemed a crime to quench it.
Egwene raised her voice just enough to be heard over the oth*ers. “You will approach Varilin and the others Delana named, and arrange to approach the White Tower. These are the terms I will accept: Elaida is to resign and go into exile.” Because Elaida would never accept back the sisters who had rebelled against her. An Amyrlin had no say over how an Ajah governed itself, but Elaida had declared that the sisters who fled the Tower were no longer members of any Ajah. According to her, they would have to beg readmittance to their Ajahs, after serving a penance under her direct control. Elaida would not reunite the Tower, only shatter it worse than it already was. “Those are the only terms I will accept, Beonin. The only (RJ's emphasis) terms. Do you understand me?”

By her reasoning here, even being seen as a lackey of the DR is okay with her. She and the AS may hold their noses, but that wouldn't prevent them from uniting again. Elaida is the only hurdle.

Egwene's main goal in captivity in the WT is to create as many doubts surrounding the legitimacy and\or effectiveness of Elaida's leadership. She knows that Elaida is the only thing keeping the WT from mending (apart from the BA, but she has no idea what going on there).

[77jester]

I voted on this last week and wanted to post a reason but then realized that there were 5 pages of posts I still hadn't read yet so waited till i had time to read them all.
First off I don't think the 3 choices accurately portrayed anyones thoughts, personally I voted #2 but only cause i think #3 is too extreme, but just barely :D
This series was refreshing in the beginning because interchange between the sexes was unique and accurate in many ways. Granted not all people act the way these characters do but it was entertaining. The one gripe I have with RJ female characters is that the three supergirls are very close to being the same personality. There isn't any diversity in having a shy quiet heroine, or a cool tempered just get it done type. Egwene, Elayne, Nynaeve, Fail, Avhienda, Tuon, Suian and Moraine (New spring) and even Min all have phenomenal tempers and rarely act meekly. When reading New Spring I couldn't help but think that Moraine and Suian act just like Egwene and Nynaeve. In the beginning this was entertaining to me, but I would have like to see a little more diversity. Perhaps maybe a character like Bode Cauthon doing a little bit. To me it's not that I hate Egwene, I enjoy the dynamics and interchange, I would just like to see some respect shown to the men in the series, particularly Rand. Faile I can't stand simply for the Saldean custom of wanting a man to yell at you and playing the stupid games with Perrin. Somebody make a poll to have her get axed.
And for those of you that care I am a male 31 yrs old married with 5 older sisters, and 6 nieces.