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Brita
08-26-2009, 10:49 AM
Linky goodness. (http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ap-southafrica-semenyasreturn&prov=ap&type=lgns)

South Africans rally for runner in gender debate

PrintJOHANNESBURG (AP)—Mobbed by a singing, dancing and horn-blowing crowd of supporters at Johannesburg’s airport, South African runner Caster Semenya looked overwhelmed and a little terrified.

The gold-medal-winning teenager at the center of an international controversy over her gender cried “Mama! Mama!” and reached out for her mother as police tried to clear a path through the throngs at the welcoming ceremony in the arrival area.

South Africans rallied around their 800-meter world champion as she returned home Tuesday from Berlin, and even President Jacob Zuma vowed that he would not permit her gold medal to be taken away, no matter what gender tests say.

The International Amateur Athletic Federation has initiated the tests on Semenya, who stunned the world championships last week by her decisive win but whose muscular build and deep voice sparked questions about whether she is a woman.

There was no doubt among the thousands of supporters who greeted the 18-year-old at the airport with posters reading: “Caster You Go Girl!” “Our First Lady of Sport,” and “Caster You Beaut.”

The crowd cheered wildly as she tentatively made her way onto a small stage in a parking lot, but slowly she relaxed, gave a thumbs-up and, breaking into a broad grin, said: “Hi, everybody!”

Clad in the team’s yellow and green team tracksuit with her gold medal dangling from her neck, Semenya even tried a few dance moves.

“She has lifted our hearts,” said Semenya’s mother, Dorcus, wearing a traditional headdress. “We feel powerful because of her.”

She then attended a parade through the capital Pretoria and met with Zuma, displaying the remarkable poise that helped her easily win the 800 hours after world track officials went public with her gender tests.

When asked what he would do if the IAAF revoked the medal, Zuma said: “They’re not going to remove the gold medal. She won it. So that question does not arise.”

The president advised Semenya: “Continue to walk tall.”

“We are proud of you. We love you. These events should not distract us from celebrating your outstanding achievement on the track.”

Semenya strode confidently to the podium and for the first time described the race that won her the gold and the world’s attention.

She said that before the 800-meter final, her coach told her that in the last 200 meters, “‘Kill them.’ I did what he said, but I took a lead in the last 400. I celebrated the last 200.

“It was great,” she said as her teammates stood to applaud.

Semenya, who grew up in deep poverty in South Africa’s rural hinterland, seemed shy and tomboyish but completely at ease with herself.

It was only during a news conference after her arrival—when politicians and sports officials went on a tirade against the IAAF, the media and the West in general—that Semenya seemed to wish she was elsewhere. Semenya never spoke at the news conference and showed little emotion as politicians and sports officials spoke of the humiliation she has suffered.

Leonard Chuene, president of Athletics South Africa, said Semenya was too traumatized to speak at the news conference. “She’s only 18. I’m traumatized myself,” he said.

At one point, her grandmother, in the traditional wide-skirted outfit of their Pedi tribe, pushed through the thicket of TV cameras to ululate praise. That drew a smile from Semenya.

A full-throated laugh from Semenya came at a question about whether she had received hormone injections from Ekkart Arbeit, head coach of the South African team. Arbeit was accused of steroid abuse when he coached in East Germany in the 1970s and 1980s. Chuene said Arbeit had had no direct contact with Semenya.

The Daily Telegraph in London reported that tests done before the world championships indicated that Semenya had three times the normal female level of testosterone in her body, although that does not necessarily mean she was doping. Chuene refused to comment on the report.

“I stand firm. Yes, indeed, she’s a girl,” Chuene said. “We are not going to allow Europeans to describe and define our children.”

Also at Semenya’s side was Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, ex-wife of former President Nelson Mandela, who hit out at the athlete’s detractors.

“To the world out there, who conducted those pseudo-tests to test our gender, they can stuff their insult,” she said. “This is our little girl, and nobody is going to perform any tests on her. We have defeated difficult situations in the history of this country. Don’t touch us.”

South Africans of all races have rallied behind Semenya and many say the allegations against her are motivated by envy and show racial discrimination against Africans.

“There are those that are just jealous. She must ignore them,” said Paisley Sebata, a former schoolmate of Semenya who made a three-hour journey to the airport. “She has showed that South Africa has talent.”

Zuma said South Africa’s minister of sport and recreation has written to the IAAF to express “our disappointment and the manner in which the body has dealt with the matter,” he said.

“It is one thing to seek to ascertain whether or not an athlete has an unfair advantage over others, but it is another to publicly humiliate an honest professional and competent athlete.”

The IAAF, track and field’s governing body, will decide Semenya’s case according to whether her “conditions … accord no advantage over other females” after consulting a gynecologist, an endocrinologist, a psychologist, an internal medicine specialist and a gender expert. The test takes weeks to complete.

My vote: female.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 11:09 AM
That's not your mother...ITS A MAN BABY!!!



By which I mean she may very well have some unusually strong (but naturally occuring) male hormone levels...through no fault of her own.

Ishara
08-26-2009, 11:12 AM
I wonder if the questioning of the Russian women during the Olympics all those years ago was this intense...really...was it? I have no idea.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 11:13 AM
I wonder if the questioning of the Russian women during the Olympics all those years ago was this intense...really...was it? I have no idea.

Yes and Yes.

Also the East German women...it was a huge issue that became massively politicized.

Brita
08-26-2009, 11:27 AM
Well clearly anyone who doesn't have a willowy 5'5", 95 lb frame, huge round boobs and a soft whispery voice is not female.

Seriously though, quite obviously the officials are insultingly placing their own ethnocentric views onto these poor athletes.

They (as in the officials) will end up eating crow, mark mt words.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 11:36 AM
Well clearly anyone who doesn't have a willowy 5'5", 95 lb frame, huge round boobs and a soft whispery voice is not female.

I'm sorry I lost track after the above sentence...though I must say 95 lbs is way too low for a girl that is 5'5". Girl needs to eat a bit more before I'd be interested. Not into the whole anorexia thing.

Brita
08-26-2009, 11:40 AM
I'm sorry I lost track after the above sentence...though I must say 95 lbs is way too low for a girl that is 5'5". Girl needs to eat a bit more before I'd be interested. Not into the whole anorexia thing.

LOL! I was trying to go low, to match our general media fixation on skeletal women.

Zanguini
08-26-2009, 11:46 AM
females must also succumb to the Vapors every so often.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 11:47 AM
LOL! I was trying to go low, to match our general media fixation on skeletal women.

At that height, she'd have to be 115-120 at a minimum to not look anorexic...even that would still be pretty skinny/willowy. When we first met, Soon-to-be Mrs. Dav was a whopping 5'2", 100-105 lbs and she wore either a 2 Petite or a 0 Petite. She had just gone through a really crappy stressful part of her life and she was super skinny from the weight loss. Now she wears a 6 usually and I think she looks 10 times better. She's naturally fairly curvy (Latino/Mexican Indian blood) so even at 100 lbs she looked healthy but she was too too skinny...and she was the first to say it.

Brita
08-26-2009, 11:50 AM
females must also succumb to the Vapors every so often.

HAHAHA! Absolutely!

Gilshalos Sedai
08-26-2009, 11:58 AM
Well, there's always that condition where a girl is anatomically a woman, but hormonally a man (Jamie Lee Curtis is often accused of this condition). I don't see how that would give her an unfair advantage, though.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 12:04 PM
Well, there's always that condition where a girl is anatomically a woman, but hormonally a man (Jamie Lee Curtis is often accused of this condition). I don't see how that would give her an unfair advantage, though.

Wouldn't the extra testosterone give her an advantage simular to Steroid use when it came to working out?

Gilshalos Sedai
08-26-2009, 12:08 PM
No, because that's why she's a girl. Women with that condition produce testosterone, but can't use it. AT ALL.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 12:12 PM
No, because that's why she's a girl. Women with that condition produce testosterone, but can't use it. AT ALL.

Hmm...good to know. I personally have no idea so I appreciate the insight.

What's the big deal then?

Brita
08-26-2009, 12:23 PM
The bid deal is that they are actually accusing her of being a man, not just a woman with high testosterone. If she naturally has high testosterone but is a woman, then meh- nothing they can do.

Apparently, there are many different conditions (http://www.ehow.com/facts_4962570_what-causes-high-testosterone-women.html)that can cause this.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-26-2009, 12:32 PM
Exactly, but to have to go through those tests, much less the accusation....

Brita
08-26-2009, 12:34 PM
Exactly, but to have to go through those tests, much less the accusation....

Yep, ultimately insulting.

John Snow
08-26-2009, 12:34 PM
They (as in the officials) will end up eating crow, mark mt words.

It was the Italian competitor. Or, at least she got the most ink.

John Snow
08-26-2009, 12:39 PM
No, because that's why she's a girl. Women with that condition produce testosterone, but can't use it. AT ALL.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2009/08/26/testosterone/index.html

"Researchers had 550 MBA students at the University of Chicago submit to a testosterone test and then had them play a computer game that measures one's propensity for financial risk-taking. Then, two years after graduation, researchers checked back in with 379 of the students to see what career they had ended up in. They found that the link between testosterone levels and risk aversion was statistically significant for women -- and, as a result, predicted the relative riskiness of their chosen career paths -- but the same was not true not for men. "

Gilshalos Sedai
08-26-2009, 12:42 PM
I googled her image and frankly, she is rather androgynous-looking. But no more than Serena and Venus Williams. Or Tilda Swinton, for that matter.

Her arms aren't any more muscular than the Williams' sisters or Madonna's.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 12:43 PM
Yep, ultimately insulting.

Quite insulting I would think.

Sinistrum
08-26-2009, 01:17 PM
Uh I googled her picture too. The Williams sisters have an obvious advantage on her in identifying their gender. Land ownership.

Kurtz
08-26-2009, 01:40 PM
Why, when a woman does something even remotely well, must she immediately be accused of being a dude?

The whole thing has been handled horridly anyhow. Her father was on the telly over here and bless him, English not being his first language, he continuously referred to his daughter as 'he'.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-26-2009, 02:15 PM
Uh I googled her picture too. The Williams sisters have an obvious advantage on her in identifying their gender. Land ownership.

Not a lot of land ownership. I believe Keira Knightly has more acreage than they do.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 02:18 PM
Not a lot of land ownership. I believe Keira Knightly has more acreage than they do.

Keira Knightly is a bag of bones dipped in wax.

She can act fairly well when she wants to...in the right role.

Sinistrum
08-26-2009, 02:22 PM
Uh what pictures are you looking at?

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o267/mwzadotcom/0000vwilliams_03.jpg

http://www.eurweb.com/images/articles/200708/serena_williams(005-headshot-med).jpg

Seems to me that Venus is sporting at least a b-cup, which is pretty darn good for female pro-athlete. As for Serena, her cup freakin overflowth. You can't say either for Dude Looks Like Lady track star.

Brita
08-26-2009, 02:22 PM
The William's sisters have the priviledge of North American grooming to soften their masculine looks. Give Semenya girl a spin on What Not To Wear, or some other makeover show, and she'll look all shiny too.

This poor lass (I have to say lass, 'cause Kurtz is back) grew up in poverty and used her natural talents to succeed, only to be accused of lying, fraud and being as ugly as a man (and gawd that's ugly ;) ).

Davian93
08-26-2009, 02:23 PM
The William's sisters have the priviledge of North American grooming to soften their masculine looks. This poor lass (I have to say lass, 'cause Kurtz is back) grew up in poverty and used her natural talents to succeed, only to be accused of lying, fraud and being as ugly as a man (and gawd that's ugly ;) ).

What...like that wonderful weave that Venus (pictured above) is wearing? This whole thing is sad.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-26-2009, 02:25 PM
Uh, Sini... those are plastic. Sorry to say.

Brita
08-26-2009, 02:27 PM
Uh, Sini... those are plastic. Sorry to say.

And that too. Makeover and boob job, and Semenya doesn't have to worry anymore about her well-earned medal being stripped. Life is so simple really.

Sinistrum
08-26-2009, 02:29 PM
Uh, Sini... those are plastic. Sorry to say.

Prove it. I say they're real.

JSUCamel
08-26-2009, 02:34 PM
Prove it. I say they're real.

I agree. They look real to me.

Davian93
08-26-2009, 02:36 PM
I agree. They look real to me.

It looks like a pushup bra/tape job to me...There's a chance they are implants but they don't obviously look like one from that photo. More photos are required.

Sinistrum
08-26-2009, 02:42 PM
Agreed Davian.

http://boobsaregreat.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/serena-williams-bouncing-boobs3.jpg

This seals the deal for me on Serena being natural and not a tape job/wonder bra. Fake/Enhanced boobs don't bounce like that, especially in a sports bra. There's another picture I'd like to post with her in a black see through blouse that is also fairly conclusive, but its NSFW.

http://www.hogwild.net/images/Balloons/2003.02.20/venus.williams-boobs.jpg

As for Venus, while certainly not as impressive as Serena, I think this picture is also pretty conclusive. Once again, I will go back to fake boobs not bouncing like that in a sports bra. There's also a NSFW picture I'm tempted to post that is conclusive. Lets just say one of them decided to pop out and say hello at a fancy party.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-26-2009, 02:50 PM
All right, fine. I stand by Tilda Swinton, though. :)

Sinistrum
08-26-2009, 03:02 PM
All right, fine. I stand by Tilda Swinton, though.

This is what you get for challenging the boobage licensor. :p If there is one thing I've studied more than anything else in my 27 years on this planet, its boobs.

As for Tilda Swinton, can I just say DUH! I swear to god I thought she was just an extremely effeminate man the first time I saw her (Constantine). I didn't realize she was a chick until after I IMDBed the movie.

Kurtz
08-26-2009, 03:07 PM
Tilda Swinton is a legend . Anyone who attends award ceremonies accompanied by her husband and her lover is alright by me.

Sinistrum
08-26-2009, 03:15 PM
I will never get "polyamorous" people. I think they're just some combination of greedy, confused, and emotionally disfunctional.

Kurtz
08-26-2009, 03:26 PM
Nah, think her husband is just too old to achieve the necessary anymore.

Sei'taer
08-26-2009, 04:13 PM
Nah, think her husband is just too old to achieve the necessary anymore.


Lookin' at pics, I'm not sure I'd be able to achieve the necessary. Sorry...I don't wanna look at her pasty white blue veiny teats, or any of the rest of her pasty blue veiny stuff (I'm trying very hard to be politically correct here and not doing a very good job of it)

Ishara
08-27-2009, 07:17 AM
I think she's captivating. She is the definition of a "handsome" woman, and she chooses not to be all soft and pretty and I really love tha tabout her. She's so striking, so different, and you could cut bread on her cheekbones. Personally, I think she's stunning. Think: Elaida.

Sei'taer
08-27-2009, 08:29 AM
Handsome Woman:
A woman with the kind of refined beauty and attractiveness that requires poise, dignity, and strength of mind and character, things that often come with age; not merely sex-appeal. Usually applied to a woman who is also very well-groomed and from an upper class background.




Angelica Houston is handsome. Tilda is....I don't know what, but she's not handsome (she's not even cute, IMO)

Gilshalos Sedai
08-27-2009, 08:46 AM
I kinda thought she was a guy in Constantine at first, too. It took several viewings and reading the credits for me to be think she was a woman (And her first name is unusual enough I wasn't sure). It wasn't until TLTWaW that I was sure.

I don't fault her acting ability, I think she's wonderful. But it's a good thing she doesn't object to playing in fantasy/sci-fi movies, where looks aren't paramount, or where her looks might be necessary. And yes, Elaida would be a good fit for her. She does nuts very well.

Anjelica Huston is beautiful.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-27-2009, 08:57 AM
I thought she looked really good in Benjamin Button. Well, by "really good" I mean sophisticated, intelligent and poised. Pretty much the definition of "handsome woman".

Ishara
08-27-2009, 09:16 AM
Handsome Woman:
A woman with the kind of refined beauty and attractiveness that requires poise, dignity, and strength of mind and character, things that often come with age; not merely sex-appeal. Usually applied to a woman who is also very well-groomed and from an upper class background.

Sei:

poise? Check
dignity? check
strength of mind? check
strength of character? check
well-groomed? check
upper class background (which I admit is so not necessary)? check

Just because she's not sexually attractive (to you I say, as her lover is significantly younger and quite dreamy) doesn't make her ugly. But that's just my opinion.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-27-2009, 09:19 AM
Just because she's not sexually attractive (to you I say, as her lover is significantly younger and quite dreamy) doesn't make her ugly. But that's just my opinion.
or to rephrase: Just becasue she's not drop-dead-gorgeous doesn't mean she's not sexually attractive.

Sei'taer
08-27-2009, 09:28 AM
or to rephrase: Just becasue she's not drop-dead-gorgeous doesn't mean she's not sexually attractive.

I think she's gross, but what do I know.

Ishara
08-27-2009, 09:29 AM
LOL. It's not I can't see why, I just appreciate her.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-27-2009, 09:37 AM
Beauty fades, sooner or later. I would much rather I grow up to be Tilda than to be Elizabeth Taylor if you know what I mean.

Davian93
08-27-2009, 09:57 AM
Beauty fades, sooner or later. I would much rather I grow up to be Tilda than to be Elizabeth Taylor if you know what I mean.

Very very true. Cate Blanchett is a good natural beauty too. She is older but is aging gracefully. Dianne Lane is another example of this.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-27-2009, 10:01 AM
well, to be honest, I would most like to be Sophia Loren and have both the drop-dead-gorgeous and the sophisticated poise.

Kurtz
08-27-2009, 10:03 AM
Anjelica Huston is beautiful.

http://www.geocities.com/womenofhorror/witches.jpg

Kurtz
08-27-2009, 10:03 AM
Very very true. Cate Blanchett is a good natural beauty too. She is older but is aging gracefully. Dianne Lane is another example of this.

Both of them are drop dead gorgeous in fairness

Davian93
08-27-2009, 10:12 AM
Both of them are drop dead gorgeous in fairness

Yes...especially Dianne Lane. She's a 10.

Gilshalos Sedai
08-27-2009, 10:24 AM
What the hell is that, Kurtz?

Kurtz
08-27-2009, 10:34 AM
Angelica Huston in The Witches!

The Grand High Witch :eek:

Gilshalos Sedai
08-27-2009, 10:41 AM
Uh... OK... so movie makeup works... duh.

Davian93
08-27-2009, 11:00 AM
Uh... OK... so movie makeup works... duh.

Michelle Pfieffer in Stardust. I always make the joke that the only time they do any makeup work on her is when she's transformed into a "young" witch again. The rest of the time is just her candid camera style.

Ishara
08-27-2009, 11:01 AM
LOL. Yeah.

Also, yes to yks. Sophia Loren...amn I just want to be half that sultry at 30 nevermind 70+!